WEBVTT - Palestinians Debate Armed Tactics 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:07.840 Col Zone Media. Hello everyone, I'm welcome to it could 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.720 happen here. My name is Dad Al Kern. I'm an 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.120 associate professor of political science a senior non resident fellow 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.279 at the Arab Center Washington, and I specialize in Palestinian 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.640 and Arab politics. Although Gaza has sort of leaked off 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.520 the headlines with everything going on domestically, there's still obviously 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.000 a lot happening on the issue of Palestine. I feel 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:28.800 like I've started the last few episodes like this, but 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.880 it's worth repeating. So here's an update on what's been 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:36.559 happening in Gaza specifically. Despite the ceasefire agreement, reports indicate 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.640 ongoing demolition of homes in Gaza City and restricted entry 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.520 of food, medical, and humanitarian aid. Again, since the ceasefire started, 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.920 more than six hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.639 fi with one hundreds more injured. For some reason, these 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.960 don't count as ceasefire violations, and according to the Gaza 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.800 Government Media Office, there's been over sixteen hundred violations by 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.920 Israeli forces, including air attacks, shelling, and direct shooting of 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.920 the past one hundred and thirty some days of the ceasefire, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.120 Analosa shows attacks on one hundred and eleven of them, 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.040 at least In a previous episode, I also talked about 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:11.920 what the yellow line was, which was this kind of 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:16.760 unilaterally imposed military boundary inside Gaza to make sure that 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.240 Palestinians are sequestered into smaller spaces, and Israeli forces have 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.559 continued to target individuals and structures across this yellow line, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.840 claiming that these actions are necessary to stop militants and 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.240 now JA zero reports, however, that Israeli backed gangs armed 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.880 gangs are operating back and forth across the yellow line, 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.600 so they're allowed now. Rapach Crossing, which is at the 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.800 southern tip of Gaza, has officially opened, but is operating 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:46.800 under intense Israeli security, with some monitoring by the Palestinian 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.520 authority and EU officials, but reports indicate that only about 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.200 fifty to one hundred and fifty people are allowed to 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.120 cross daily, which is far below the demand for the 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.520 estimated twenty thousand plus sick or wounded Palestinians needing evacuation. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.400 And since it's opened its faced closures, there's been a 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:08.000 lot of confusion about policy, with many reporting harsh treatment, 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.360 invasive searches, and restrictions on personal belongings for those passing through, 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.359 and that crossing is not functioning for commercial or humanitarian aid, 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.120 which must go through other Israeli controlled crossings. At the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.560 Munich Security Conference that was held February thirteenth, the top 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:30.480 US appointed diplomat overseeing the ceasefire, Bulgarian diplomat Nicolaim Ladanov said, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.440 quote continued violations of the agreement pose major obstacles to 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.600 the Pastinian committee expected to oversee post war governance and 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.600 reconstruction end quote, and he was specifically talking about Hamas 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.400 basically violating the agreement by not laying down its weapons, 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.600 not disarming and the Passidnian Foreign Minister Varsen Shaheen, speaking 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.959 at the same panel, focused on this idea that Gaza 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.360 must not be severed from the West Bank and that 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.919 the Palsadian authority, meaning the government in the West Bank 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.560 that she represents, will need to take control of governance 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.040 at some point in Gaza, so that Pastinians could maybe 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.120 have a state in the future, something of course the 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.800 Israeli government has rejected outright, which brings us to this 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.120 issue of disarming Hamas. Now, this has been a condition 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.840 of the US and its representatives on the Board of Peace. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.880 Here's Trump on this a few days after the ceasefire 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.000 was announced. I will it take Hamas to disarm and 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.120 can you guarantee that is going to happen? Well, I'm 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.480 going to disarm, and because they said they were going 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.639 to disarm, and if they don't disarm, we will disarm them. 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.280 How you do that, I don't have to explain that 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.240 to you. But if they don't disarm, we will disarm them. 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.680 They know I'm not playing games, okay. On February fifteenth, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.960 he announced on social media his Truth Social that he 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.600 had gotten five billion dollars pledged by members of his 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.800 quote unquote Board of Peace. As one article noted, reconstruction 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.160 of Gaza is expected to cost seven hundred billion dollars 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.040 according to the United Nations, World Bank, and European Union estimates, 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.680 especially after more than two years of war. Trump has 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.320 also claimed that countries had committed a bunch of troops 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.560 to the International Security Force that's supposed to go into Gaza, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.760 secure Gaza and disarm Hamas. He didn't name which of 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.520 these countries had committed troops, but Indonesia did confirm that 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.640 it will send eight thousand troops, and in that same 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.760 truth social post, Trump again reiterated that quote very importantly, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.560 Hamass must uphold its commitment to full and immediate demilitarization 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:30.080 end quote. So. Back in December, in an interview with 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.279 Israel's Channel twelve, as reported by drop site News, Yous 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.080 Ambassador to the UN Mike Waltz, said that the International 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.400 Security Force was intended to disarm Hamas one way or 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.880 the other. Specifically, he said, quote by all means necessary, 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.480 and that quote obviously, it'll be a conversation with each country. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.800 Those rules of engagement are ongoing. I'll tell you this. 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.240 President Trump has repeatedly said Hamas will disarm one way 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.560 or another, the easy way or the hard way. End quote. Now. Hamas, 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.400 for its art, claims it never agreed to disarm. In 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.120 an interview with drop site News in December twenty twenty five, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.480 senior HAMAS leader Hadad Michald said that while Hamas is 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.760 open to quote freezing or storing its defensive weapons, it 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.000 wouldn't disarm unless it was in the quote context of 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.200 establishing a Palestinian army or security force capable of defending 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.559 itself from Israeli aggression. Hamas has claimed that it only 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.279 has a mandate to negotiate a cease fire at exchange 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.880 of captives, and that every other issue needs to be 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.760 handled through some sort of consensus process involving the other 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:34.400 Palestinian political factions. And in that same interview, Michiald rejected 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.800 the idea of an international security force disarming them, saying 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.640 that quote we accept them on the borders as separation 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.240 forces between the Palestinian side and the Israeli side, not 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.640 as forces deployed inside Gaza as was intended for them, 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.760 and as Nitayaja wants for them to clash with Palestinians 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.800 and disarm them end quote. So, speaking at an Al 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:56.000 Jazera forum on February eighth, the same person, Haded michald 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.920 reiterated this argument, saying that the calls for Hamas's disarmament 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.680 is not an international demand but and Israeli dictate being 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.080 pushed onto Washington. He also said that cause to disarm 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.800 Palstinians while the occupation continues would quote leave Gaza defenseless 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:16.520 against Israel's overwhelming military power and exterminationist agenda. As job 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:20.280 site News reported on their social media, quote mitchad acknowledged 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.320 the need for pragmatic post war framework to enable reconstruction 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.040 and prevent a return to fighting, but explained that it 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.880 could not be built on total disarmament. So with that 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.159 as an introduction, I wanted to take this episode to 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.839 talk about what Palestinians think of disarmament and broadly and 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.719 more generally arm tactics. And when I say Palestinians, I 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.400 hope it's clear I don't just mean Hemas. I know 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.800 that comes as a shock to some, but Palstinians aren't monolithic. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.280 And there has been a great deal of debate since 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.080 the Octu over seventh attacks by HEMS on the role 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.479 of arm tactics armed groups, especially in the absence of 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:01.760 national institutions or functioning national liberation movements. In December of 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.840 last year, twenty twenty five, the New Arab hosted a 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:10.360 very interesting debate between different Pastinian representatives of Hamas Fateh, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.440 the party of the Palsidian Authority, and a human rights 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.480 activist and writer. And they hosted this in Gaza, literally 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.160 on the grounds of the bombed out of Shippa Hospital, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.320 and they've debated some key questions, for example, who has 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.000 the right to decide or in peace for Palestinians. How 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.080 can Pastinians understand October seventh, does Hamas need to disarm? 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.240 Who should govern Gaza? And you know what, this may 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:36.960 come as a shock to both the American left and 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.760 the American right, but the Pasdian speakers at this interview 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.160 did not all agree with each other. So I'm going 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.960 to give a brief roundown of what this panel discussed. 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.520 The main Hamas spokesperson hasn't cast him basically argued that 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.240 decisions on war and peace should be made through national 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:58.440 consensus within a unified Pastinian institution, not unilaterally by any faction. 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.000 But and in the absence of functioning institutions, then Hamas 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.640 is a part of the Palstinian body politic has a 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.040 right to engage in violence and defend Palestinians. He also 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.600 argued that it wasn't Hamas's fault that there wasn't national 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.960 consensus or functioning national institutions. His narrative was that Hamas 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.320 consistently sought unity first by entering into elections in two 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.680 thousand and six and supporting election attempts that President Mahmoud 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.080 Abbas of the party and the Paladinian authority ended up canceling. 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.679 He also reiterated that Hamas doesn't mind handing over governance 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.319 in Gaza to a technocratic body, which proves, from his perspective, 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.959 that they aren't trying to govern alone. And on the 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.400 question of disarmament, he said Hamas would commit to cease fire, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.720 they would commit to maybe storing their weapons, but they 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.199 wouldn't disarm entirely, and they maintained that armed tactics are 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:51.280 illegitimate right. He also emphasized that Israel alone was responsible 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.160 for the destruction of Gaza and that no one could 0:08:53.160 --> 0:09:07.719 have anticipated the level of brutality Israel would unleash now. 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.520 The Fattehespauk's person, Mond Hayek understandably disagreed with many of 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:16.239 these points. He represents the opposing party, and from his perspective, 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.880 the October seventh attacks were launched without national consensus and 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.600 that Concessus could only operate through the Past Time Liberation 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.880 Organization the PLO, which is the internationally recognized representative of 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.600 the Palestinian people. Hayak also made the reasonable argument that 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.720 even if everyone agrees armed resistance is a right, that 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.960 those engaging in that tactic should consider the regional and 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.920 international context, as well as the impact of these kinds 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.200 of tactics and the likelihood of their success, and in 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.199 his view, because these things were not considered October seventh, 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.520 led to very negative results for Palestinians and a lack 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:56.760 of meaningful international support. He also admonished Hamas leadership for 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.480 making what he thinks is a political decision of not 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.319 negotiation aiding a ceasefire earlier, accusing them of having been 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.120 able to stop the war in the first six months 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.360 and limit the bloodshed. And finally, he criticized Hamas for 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.480 prolonging negotiations and refusing to put the PA in charge 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.480 of Gaza. And he landed on the argument that there 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.120 could be no future for Hamas from his perspective, as 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.760 part of a national liberation movement unless it accepted the PLO, 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.840 it disarmed, it renounced violence, and understood that the PA, 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.400 the Palsienian Authority, was the only legitimate authority that could 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.480 control both territories the West Bank and Gaza, and the 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.520 way to quote unify Palstinian geography is through the Palsenian 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.599 Authority and doing that would be the only way to 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.640 get back to the state building project I'm just summarizing 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.720 here to be clear, his words, not mine. Now. The 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.720 final panelist, Mustaf Ebrahim is a writer and human rights 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.000 activist in Gaza who took a critical position of both parties. 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.720 He basically said that both Hamas and fate shared the 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.200 blame for the division in the Pastinian body politic and 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.720 the fact that there was a lack of mechanism for 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:06.320 collective Palstenian decision making and no functioning national institutions. He 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.720 blamed both sides, and he accused both sides of not 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.480 actually being serious about any of the dialogue sessions that 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.040 were held between the two parties in the past in Cairo, Beirut, 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.719 and Beijing. But he agreed with the FATEH spokesperson that 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.720 October seventh has not been allowed to be assessed properly 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.280 and that Palestinians never got to decide if the consequences 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.760 justified whatever October semith was trying to do, and he 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.760 blamed Hamas for that, so, agreeing with the other panelists 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:37.720 that the rights to resist as legitimate, he also acknowledged 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:42.440 that disarmament was an internationally demanded condition, so he posed 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.040 the question how would Palestinians navigate this, and from his perspective, 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.439 Hamas should be more flexible on the weapons and disarmament issue, 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.480 especially given the degree of people's suffering and the need 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.640 for reconstruction in Gaza. I summarize all of this for 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.760 you because this debate held in Gaza among people who 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.880 had directly lived through the last two years of genocide, 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.720 should demonstrate that there is no national consensus, and that 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.800 it's not because Pastinians don't know how to resolve these issues, 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.559 it's because they haven't been given the space to do so. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.760 There has been a lot of discussion about how to 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:22.319 unify these different parties, about reviving the Pastain Liberation Organization, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.520 making it more inclusive and democratic and therefore more legitimate 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.839 as an actor, so that it could make decisions the 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.360 Palstinian people would accept, and so that not one faction 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.080 can do what at once can engage in tactics without 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.760 considering the consequences. But none of these attempts, and there 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.200 have been plenty, like the Palstinian National Conference, have really 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.360 been incorporated into discussions of post conflict processes or management 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.480 by the international community. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.720 the idea we're going with is the quote Board of Peace, 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.000 basically functioning as a colonial oversight board and a club 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.680 for authoritarian regimes. But I digress. I think it's also 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.400 important to make two points here. First, that polling of 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.520 the Palestinian people by the Palstinian Center for Policy and 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.040 Survey Research shows that most Palestinians are not supportive of 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.840 either party, neither Fetah or Hamas. There is a degree 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.720 of malaise and cynicism where both parties are seen as 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.120 a part of an unacceptable status quo. For example, when 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.920 asked about whether they would support a Hamas candidate or 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.000 a fute candidate if elections were held for the presidency, 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.160 thirty four percent of Palstinians say they would vote for 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.760 a Fute candidate, twenty four percent would say a Hamas candidate, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.320 nine percent would say they would keep president Mahmoud Abbass, 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.480 and a whopping thirty two percent would say they wouldn't 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.480 even vote, and this non voting percentage goes up to 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.640 forty seven percent if the elections are just between Mahamud 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:49.560 Abbass and a Hamas candidate. And they also ask about 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.880 direct support of political parties, so there's a more direct 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.560 question in the latest poll from October twenty twenty five, 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.000 Again it shows twenty four percent support FATE, hardly a majority, 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.440 thy five five percent support MS, again hardly a majority, 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.920 nine percent support third parties, and thirty two percent either 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.920 say they don't know or refuse to answer. So this 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.800 is not a situation where either of these parties have 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.480 a mandate, and it's clear that neither party is representing 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:18.840 the Pasenian people right now, nor do their actions have 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.720 majority support. Now, some might wonder is this debate emerging 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.520 because of the sheer level of destruction in Gaza. We 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.160 are talking over seventy thousand people killed in Gaza that 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.280 we can even confirm so far. Is it that, in 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.080 this context, this context of severe consequences from Israel, what 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.280 prompted this debate and self reflection? Well, the short answer 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.480 is no. Postenians have always debated these issues, and in 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.440 the absence of a functioning national liberation movement with all 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.360 of its institutions, they haven't been able to hold any 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.600 particular party accountable for its actions. I could point to 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.640 a lot in Pastenian history to demonstrate this, but I'll 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.200 point out an essay by a Postaenian inte actual Asthmibshada 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.120 that he wrote and released within a month of October seventh. 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.840 This essay, titled Moral Matters and Hard Times, again demonstrates 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:12.120 the Palestinians have never shied away from this discussion and 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.640 indeed made criticisms of these political parties very quickly following 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.600 the attacks. Now, of course, Bashada lays the blame for 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.280 civilian deaths on Israel, given that it targets Palestinian civilians 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.560 as he argues out of racism and as he argues 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.160 to try to turn the population against armed tactics and 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.840 armed resistance, and he quotes Israeli leaders directly here. So 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.600 he talks about President Herzog saying there are no innocence 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.720 in Gaza, and Israeli Defense Minister you Off Gallant at 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.160 the time calling people in Gaza human animals. And he 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.520 also points out that Israeli society at the time was 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.880 overwhelmingly supportive of cutting off food, water, and medicine to Gaza. So, 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.760 although Bashada rejects this kind of absolute evil framing of 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.360 the attacks and says we need to understand the context 0:15:56.440 --> 0:16:01.280 of a seventeen year seage on Gaza settlement expansion incurasions 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.280 on the al axamosk and prisoner mistreatment. He also plainly 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.360 argues that immoral acts committed during October seventh. So to him, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.480 documented instances of harm to civilians, theft, mistreatment, etc. Are 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.120 not acts of resistance, and in fact, from his perspective, 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:23.400 they harm legitimate resistance. And he argues again a month 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.120 within the attacks, that the leadership of the quote unquote 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.000 resistance have a duty to clarify what happened and condemn 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:35.040 those immoral acts. He says, quote having recognized a people's 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.560 right to resist occupation, can it be concluded that we 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:40.840 are not permitted to judge the morality of acts of 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:44.800 resistance to occupation? My answer is that, on the contrary, 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.560 it is not only permissible, but perhaps necessary. End quote. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.640 So he argues that the right to resist does not 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:56.880 exempt these movements from moral judgment, and distinguishing between legitimate 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.200 military operations and immoral acts against civilians is essential to 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.560 maintaining the justice of the Pastinian cause, even as we 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:07.080 can acknowledge and emphasize the quote moral depravity of the 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:11.160 Israeli response end quote. Now, whether you agree with him 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.640 or not, whether you side with one of the panelists 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.320 I mentioned from the interview or the other. What I 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.280 want people to take away from this episode is that 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.560 all of this clearly shows Palestinians have been taking seriously 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.520 the strategic and moral implications of all of these tactics 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.560 arm tactics included, and that there isn't any one party 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.360 that speaks for what Postinians want right now. The only 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.040 way to get national consensus is to allow the Palestinians 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.320 to create or revive the institutions necessary for that to 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:42.520 take place. Disempowering Palestinians ignoring their aspirations and ignoring the 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.520 need for their input or blocking them from undergoing this 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.680 essential process will only prolong a conflict and put along 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.679 the suffering. That's it for me today. Thanks for listening. 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.640 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.719 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.400 Polsonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.040 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.439 now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:12.760 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.