1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Col Zone Media. Hello everyone, I'm welcome to it could 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: happen here. My name is Dad Al Kern. I'm an 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: associate professor of political science a senior non resident fellow 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: at the Arab Center Washington, and I specialize in Palestinian 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: and Arab politics. Although Gaza has sort of leaked off 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: the headlines with everything going on domestically, there's still obviously 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: a lot happening on the issue of Palestine. I feel 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: like I've started the last few episodes like this, but 9 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: it's worth repeating. So here's an update on what's been 10 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: happening in Gaza specifically. Despite the ceasefire agreement, reports indicate 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: ongoing demolition of homes in Gaza City and restricted entry 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: of food, medical, and humanitarian aid. Again, since the ceasefire started, 13 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: more than six hundred Palestinians have been killed by Israeli 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,639 Speaker 1: fi with one hundreds more injured. For some reason, these 15 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: don't count as ceasefire violations, and according to the Gaza 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: Government Media Office, there's been over sixteen hundred violations by 17 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: Israeli forces, including air attacks, shelling, and direct shooting of 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: the past one hundred and thirty some days of the ceasefire, 19 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: Analosa shows attacks on one hundred and eleven of them, 20 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: at least In a previous episode, I also talked about 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: what the yellow line was, which was this kind of 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: unilaterally imposed military boundary inside Gaza to make sure that 23 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: Palestinians are sequestered into smaller spaces, and Israeli forces have 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: continued to target individuals and structures across this yellow line, 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: claiming that these actions are necessary to stop militants and 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: now JA zero reports, however, that Israeli backed gangs armed 27 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: gangs are operating back and forth across the yellow line, 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: so they're allowed now. Rapach Crossing, which is at the 29 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: southern tip of Gaza, has officially opened, but is operating 30 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: under intense Israeli security, with some monitoring by the Palestinian 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: authority and EU officials, but reports indicate that only about 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: fifty to one hundred and fifty people are allowed to 33 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: cross daily, which is far below the demand for the 34 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: estimated twenty thousand plus sick or wounded Palestinians needing evacuation. 35 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: And since it's opened its faced closures, there's been a 36 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: lot of confusion about policy, with many reporting harsh treatment, 37 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: invasive searches, and restrictions on personal belongings for those passing through, 38 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: and that crossing is not functioning for commercial or humanitarian aid, 39 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: which must go through other Israeli controlled crossings. At the 40 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: Munich Security Conference that was held February thirteenth, the top 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: US appointed diplomat overseeing the ceasefire, Bulgarian diplomat Nicolaim Ladanov said, 42 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: quote continued violations of the agreement pose major obstacles to 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: the Pastinian committee expected to oversee post war governance and 44 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: reconstruction end quote, and he was specifically talking about Hamas 45 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: basically violating the agreement by not laying down its weapons, 46 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: not disarming and the Passidnian Foreign Minister Varsen Shaheen, speaking 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: at the same panel, focused on this idea that Gaza 48 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: must not be severed from the West Bank and that 49 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: the Palsadian authority, meaning the government in the West Bank 50 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: that she represents, will need to take control of governance 51 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: at some point in Gaza, so that Pastinians could maybe 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: have a state in the future, something of course the 53 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: Israeli government has rejected outright, which brings us to this 54 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: issue of disarming Hamas. Now, this has been a condition 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: of the US and its representatives on the Board of Peace. 56 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: Here's Trump on this a few days after the ceasefire 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: was announced. I will it take Hamas to disarm and 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: can you guarantee that is going to happen? Well, I'm 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: going to disarm, and because they said they were going 60 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: to disarm, and if they don't disarm, we will disarm them. 61 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: How you do that, I don't have to explain that 62 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: to you. But if they don't disarm, we will disarm them. 63 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: They know I'm not playing games, okay. On February fifteenth, 64 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: he announced on social media his Truth Social that he 65 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: had gotten five billion dollars pledged by members of his 66 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: quote unquote Board of Peace. As one article noted, reconstruction 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: of Gaza is expected to cost seven hundred billion dollars 68 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: according to the United Nations, World Bank, and European Union estimates, 69 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: especially after more than two years of war. Trump has 70 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: also claimed that countries had committed a bunch of troops 71 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: to the International Security Force that's supposed to go into Gaza, 72 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: secure Gaza and disarm Hamas. He didn't name which of 73 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: these countries had committed troops, but Indonesia did confirm that 74 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: it will send eight thousand troops, and in that same 75 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: truth social post, Trump again reiterated that quote very importantly, 76 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: Hamass must uphold its commitment to full and immediate demilitarization 77 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: end quote. So. Back in December, in an interview with 78 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: Israel's Channel twelve, as reported by drop site News, Yous 79 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: Ambassador to the UN Mike Waltz, said that the International 80 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: Security Force was intended to disarm Hamas one way or 81 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: the other. Specifically, he said, quote by all means necessary, 82 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: and that quote obviously, it'll be a conversation with each country. 83 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: Those rules of engagement are ongoing. I'll tell you this. 84 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: President Trump has repeatedly said Hamas will disarm one way 85 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: or another, the easy way or the hard way. End quote. Now. Hamas, 86 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: for its art, claims it never agreed to disarm. In 87 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: an interview with drop site News in December twenty twenty five, 88 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: senior HAMAS leader Hadad Michald said that while Hamas is 89 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: open to quote freezing or storing its defensive weapons, it 90 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't disarm unless it was in the quote context of 91 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: establishing a Palestinian army or security force capable of defending 92 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 1: itself from Israeli aggression. Hamas has claimed that it only 93 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: has a mandate to negotiate a cease fire at exchange 94 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: of captives, and that every other issue needs to be 95 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: handled through some sort of consensus process involving the other 96 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: Palestinian political factions. And in that same interview, Michiald rejected 97 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: the idea of an international security force disarming them, saying 98 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: that quote we accept them on the borders as separation 99 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: forces between the Palestinian side and the Israeli side, not 100 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: as forces deployed inside Gaza as was intended for them, 101 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: and as Nitayaja wants for them to clash with Palestinians 102 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: and disarm them end quote. So, speaking at an Al 103 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: Jazera forum on February eighth, the same person, Haded michald 104 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: reiterated this argument, saying that the calls for Hamas's disarmament 105 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: is not an international demand but and Israeli dictate being 106 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: pushed onto Washington. He also said that cause to disarm 107 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: Palstinians while the occupation continues would quote leave Gaza defenseless 108 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: against Israel's overwhelming military power and exterminationist agenda. As job 109 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: site News reported on their social media, quote mitchad acknowledged 110 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: the need for pragmatic post war framework to enable reconstruction 111 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: and prevent a return to fighting, but explained that it 112 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: could not be built on total disarmament. So with that 113 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: as an introduction, I wanted to take this episode to 114 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: talk about what Palestinians think of disarmament and broadly and 115 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: more generally arm tactics. And when I say Palestinians, I 116 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: hope it's clear I don't just mean Hemas. I know 117 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: that comes as a shock to some, but Palstinians aren't monolithic. 118 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: And there has been a great deal of debate since 119 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: the Octu over seventh attacks by HEMS on the role 120 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: of arm tactics armed groups, especially in the absence of 121 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: national institutions or functioning national liberation movements. In December of 122 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: last year, twenty twenty five, the New Arab hosted a 123 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: very interesting debate between different Pastinian representatives of Hamas Fateh, 124 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: the party of the Palsidian Authority, and a human rights 125 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: activist and writer. And they hosted this in Gaza, literally 126 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: on the grounds of the bombed out of Shippa Hospital, 127 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: and they've debated some key questions, for example, who has 128 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: the right to decide or in peace for Palestinians. How 129 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: can Pastinians understand October seventh, does Hamas need to disarm? 130 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: Who should govern Gaza? And you know what, this may 131 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: come as a shock to both the American left and 132 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: the American right, but the Pasdian speakers at this interview 133 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: did not all agree with each other. So I'm going 134 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: to give a brief roundown of what this panel discussed. 135 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: The main Hamas spokesperson hasn't cast him basically argued that 136 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: decisions on war and peace should be made through national 137 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: consensus within a unified Pastinian institution, not unilaterally by any faction. 138 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: But and in the absence of functioning institutions, then Hamas 139 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: is a part of the Palstinian body politic has a 140 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: right to engage in violence and defend Palestinians. He also 141 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: argued that it wasn't Hamas's fault that there wasn't national 142 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: consensus or functioning national institutions. His narrative was that Hamas 143 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: consistently sought unity first by entering into elections in two 144 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: thousand and six and supporting election attempts that President Mahmoud 145 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: Abbas of the party and the Paladinian authority ended up canceling. 146 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: He also reiterated that Hamas doesn't mind handing over governance 147 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: in Gaza to a technocratic body, which proves, from his perspective, 148 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: that they aren't trying to govern alone. And on the 149 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: question of disarmament, he said Hamas would commit to cease fire, 150 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: they would commit to maybe storing their weapons, but they 151 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: wouldn't disarm entirely, and they maintained that armed tactics are 152 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: illegitimate right. He also emphasized that Israel alone was responsible 153 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: for the destruction of Gaza and that no one could 154 00:08:53,160 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: have anticipated the level of brutality Israel would unleash now. 155 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: The Fattehespauk's person, Mond Hayek understandably disagreed with many of 156 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,239 Speaker 1: these points. He represents the opposing party, and from his perspective, 157 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: the October seventh attacks were launched without national consensus and 158 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: that Concessus could only operate through the Past Time Liberation 159 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: Organization the PLO, which is the internationally recognized representative of 160 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: the Palestinian people. Hayak also made the reasonable argument that 161 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: even if everyone agrees armed resistance is a right, that 162 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: those engaging in that tactic should consider the regional and 163 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: international context, as well as the impact of these kinds 164 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: of tactics and the likelihood of their success, and in 165 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: his view, because these things were not considered October seventh, 166 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: led to very negative results for Palestinians and a lack 167 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: of meaningful international support. He also admonished Hamas leadership for 168 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: making what he thinks is a political decision of not 169 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 1: negotiation aiding a ceasefire earlier, accusing them of having been 170 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: able to stop the war in the first six months 171 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: and limit the bloodshed. And finally, he criticized Hamas for 172 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: prolonging negotiations and refusing to put the PA in charge 173 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: of Gaza. And he landed on the argument that there 174 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: could be no future for Hamas from his perspective, as 175 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: part of a national liberation movement unless it accepted the PLO, 176 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: it disarmed, it renounced violence, and understood that the PA, 177 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: the Palsienian Authority, was the only legitimate authority that could 178 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: control both territories the West Bank and Gaza, and the 179 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: way to quote unify Palstinian geography is through the Palsenian 180 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,599 Speaker 1: Authority and doing that would be the only way to 181 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: get back to the state building project I'm just summarizing 182 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: here to be clear, his words, not mine. Now. The 183 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: final panelist, Mustaf Ebrahim is a writer and human rights 184 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: activist in Gaza who took a critical position of both parties. 185 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: He basically said that both Hamas and fate shared the 186 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: blame for the division in the Pastinian body politic and 187 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: the fact that there was a lack of mechanism for 188 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: collective Palstenian decision making and no functioning national institutions. He 189 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: blamed both sides, and he accused both sides of not 190 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: actually being serious about any of the dialogue sessions that 191 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: were held between the two parties in the past in Cairo, Beirut, 192 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: and Beijing. But he agreed with the FATEH spokesperson that 193 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: October seventh has not been allowed to be assessed properly 194 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: and that Palestinians never got to decide if the consequences 195 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: justified whatever October semith was trying to do, and he 196 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: blamed Hamas for that, so, agreeing with the other panelists 197 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: that the rights to resist as legitimate, he also acknowledged 198 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: that disarmament was an internationally demanded condition, so he posed 199 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: the question how would Palestinians navigate this, and from his perspective, 200 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: Hamas should be more flexible on the weapons and disarmament issue, 201 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: especially given the degree of people's suffering and the need 202 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: for reconstruction in Gaza. I summarize all of this for 203 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: you because this debate held in Gaza among people who 204 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: had directly lived through the last two years of genocide, 205 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: should demonstrate that there is no national consensus, and that 206 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: it's not because Pastinians don't know how to resolve these issues, 207 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: it's because they haven't been given the space to do so. 208 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: There has been a lot of discussion about how to 209 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: unify these different parties, about reviving the Pastain Liberation Organization, 210 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: making it more inclusive and democratic and therefore more legitimate 211 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 1: as an actor, so that it could make decisions the 212 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: Palstinian people would accept, and so that not one faction 213 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: can do what at once can engage in tactics without 214 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: considering the consequences. But none of these attempts, and there 215 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: have been plenty, like the Palstinian National Conference, have really 216 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: been incorporated into discussions of post conflict processes or management 217 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: by the international community. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when 218 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: the idea we're going with is the quote Board of Peace, 219 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: basically functioning as a colonial oversight board and a club 220 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: for authoritarian regimes. But I digress. I think it's also 221 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: important to make two points here. First, that polling of 222 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: the Palestinian people by the Palstinian Center for Policy and 223 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: Survey Research shows that most Palestinians are not supportive of 224 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: either party, neither Fetah or Hamas. There is a degree 225 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: of malaise and cynicism where both parties are seen as 226 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: a part of an unacceptable status quo. For example, when 227 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: asked about whether they would support a Hamas candidate or 228 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: a fute candidate if elections were held for the presidency, 229 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: thirty four percent of Palstinians say they would vote for 230 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: a Fute candidate, twenty four percent would say a Hamas candidate, 231 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: nine percent would say they would keep president Mahmoud Abbass, 232 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: and a whopping thirty two percent would say they wouldn't 233 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: even vote, and this non voting percentage goes up to 234 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: forty seven percent if the elections are just between Mahamud 235 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: Abbass and a Hamas candidate. And they also ask about 236 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: direct support of political parties, so there's a more direct 237 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: question in the latest poll from October twenty twenty five, 238 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: Again it shows twenty four percent support FATE, hardly a majority, 239 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: thy five five percent support MS, again hardly a majority, 240 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: nine percent support third parties, and thirty two percent either 241 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: say they don't know or refuse to answer. So this 242 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: is not a situation where either of these parties have 243 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: a mandate, and it's clear that neither party is representing 244 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: the Pasenian people right now, nor do their actions have 245 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: majority support. Now, some might wonder is this debate emerging 246 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: because of the sheer level of destruction in Gaza. We 247 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: are talking over seventy thousand people killed in Gaza that 248 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: we can even confirm so far. Is it that, in 249 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: this context, this context of severe consequences from Israel, what 250 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: prompted this debate and self reflection? Well, the short answer 251 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: is no. Postenians have always debated these issues, and in 252 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: the absence of a functioning national liberation movement with all 253 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: of its institutions, they haven't been able to hold any 254 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: particular party accountable for its actions. I could point to 255 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: a lot in Pastenian history to demonstrate this, but I'll 256 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: point out an essay by a Postaenian inte actual Asthmibshada 257 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: that he wrote and released within a month of October seventh. 258 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: This essay, titled Moral Matters and Hard Times, again demonstrates 259 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: the Palestinians have never shied away from this discussion and 260 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: indeed made criticisms of these political parties very quickly following 261 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: the attacks. Now, of course, Bashada lays the blame for 262 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: civilian deaths on Israel, given that it targets Palestinian civilians 263 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: as he argues out of racism and as he argues 264 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: to try to turn the population against armed tactics and 265 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: armed resistance, and he quotes Israeli leaders directly here. So 266 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: he talks about President Herzog saying there are no innocence 267 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: in Gaza, and Israeli Defense Minister you Off Gallant at 268 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: the time calling people in Gaza human animals. And he 269 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: also points out that Israeli society at the time was 270 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly supportive of cutting off food, water, and medicine to Gaza. So, 271 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: although Bashada rejects this kind of absolute evil framing of 272 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: the attacks and says we need to understand the context 273 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: of a seventeen year seage on Gaza settlement expansion incurasions 274 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: on the al axamosk and prisoner mistreatment. He also plainly 275 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: argues that immoral acts committed during October seventh. So to him, 276 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: documented instances of harm to civilians, theft, mistreatment, etc. Are 277 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: not acts of resistance, and in fact, from his perspective, 278 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: they harm legitimate resistance. And he argues again a month 279 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: within the attacks, that the leadership of the quote unquote 280 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: resistance have a duty to clarify what happened and condemn 281 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: those immoral acts. He says, quote having recognized a people's 282 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: right to resist occupation, can it be concluded that we 283 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: are not permitted to judge the morality of acts of 284 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: resistance to occupation? My answer is that, on the contrary, 285 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: it is not only permissible, but perhaps necessary. End quote. 286 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: So he argues that the right to resist does not 287 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: exempt these movements from moral judgment, and distinguishing between legitimate 288 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: military operations and immoral acts against civilians is essential to 289 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: maintaining the justice of the Pastinian cause, even as we 290 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: can acknowledge and emphasize the quote moral depravity of the 291 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: Israeli response end quote. Now, whether you agree with him 292 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: or not, whether you side with one of the panelists 293 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: I mentioned from the interview or the other. What I 294 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: want people to take away from this episode is that 295 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: all of this clearly shows Palestinians have been taking seriously 296 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: the strategic and moral implications of all of these tactics 297 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: arm tactics included, and that there isn't any one party 298 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: that speaks for what Postinians want right now. The only 299 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: way to get national consensus is to allow the Palestinians 300 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: to create or revive the institutions necessary for that to 301 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: take place. Disempowering Palestinians ignoring their aspirations and ignoring the 302 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: need for their input or blocking them from undergoing this 303 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: essential process will only prolong a conflict and put along 304 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: the suffering. That's it for me today. Thanks for listening. 305 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 306 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 307 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: Polsonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 308 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 309 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly 310 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.