1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:27,620 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,780 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always, so 3 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, 4 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,460 Speaker 1: the myth, the legend, our super producer, Max, the Wild 5 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: Horse Williams. 6 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:45,419 Speaker 2: Ooh, couldn't drag me away. 7 00:00:46,450 --> 00:00:55,030 Speaker 1: That's Noel Brown. I've been bowling. We are excited to explore... something, 8 00:00:56,210 --> 00:00:59,770 Speaker 1: a strange tale that takes place in our own home 9 00:00:59,870 --> 00:01:01,029 Speaker 1: state of Georgia. 10 00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:03,990 Speaker 2: Right, on the island of Cumberland. 11 00:01:04,690 --> 00:01:09,330 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and Cumberland Island, if you're just looking on 12 00:01:09,410 --> 00:01:12,780 Speaker 1: Google Maps or what have you, might seem like any 13 00:01:12,860 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: of the other islands down there in the southeast of Georgia, 14 00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: but There's a strange story at play here, so we'd 15 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,340 Speaker 1: like to explore this story. It's a place where, guys, 16 00:01:28,530 --> 00:01:29,930 Speaker 1: they're just random horses. 17 00:01:30,490 --> 00:01:35,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. They're just roaming free. Let those ponies run, 18 00:01:35,150 --> 00:01:37,490 Speaker 2: as our buddy Scott would say. 19 00:01:37,970 --> 00:01:42,970 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes. Our good friend Scott Benjamin. Noel, we 20 00:01:43,030 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: have to talk about cumberland island as uh with a 21 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,260 Speaker 1: little bit of context have you been there. 22 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: I don't think so i was racking my brain uh 23 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: and i i'm a i'm a hilton head myrtle beach 24 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 3: kind of guy never never hit the cumberland island but 25 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: i heard it's really lovely this. 26 00:02:07,940 --> 00:02:11,060 Speaker 4: Time of year yeah what about you max i have 27 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:13,810 Speaker 4: never been to cumberland island i actually I mean, I 28 00:02:13,830 --> 00:02:15,190 Speaker 4: can guess where it is, but I don't know off 29 00:02:15,210 --> 00:02:16,770 Speaker 4: the top of my head exactly what part of the 30 00:02:16,810 --> 00:02:18,090 Speaker 4: state it even is in. 31 00:02:18,669 --> 00:02:22,910 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, we know Georgia has a very odd 32 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:27,660 Speaker 1: shape as a state. So it's got that far southeast 33 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: area where they have a few islands, a coastal connection, and, 34 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:39,579 Speaker 1: of course, the famous Savannah, Georgia. Cumberland is interesting because 35 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,850 Speaker 1: it is the biggest barrier island in along Georgia's coast, 36 00:02:44,310 --> 00:02:49,730 Speaker 1: it has two primary land masses. They're connected by a 37 00:02:49,780 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: bunch of marshes. They're called Big and Little Cumberland Island. 38 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:58,700 Speaker 1: If you look at it all together, Cumberland Island proper 39 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:02,780 Speaker 1: is about 17 and a half miles long. It's between 40 00:03:02,860 --> 00:03:08,820 Speaker 1: like half a mile and six miles wide. And overall, 41 00:03:08,870 --> 00:03:14,210 Speaker 1: you're looking at 16,000 acres, which is As Noel and 42 00:03:14,250 --> 00:03:17,889 Speaker 1: Scott just said, enough room to let those ponies run. 43 00:03:18,370 --> 00:03:22,230 Speaker 3: So the local flora and or fauna is pretty much 44 00:03:22,270 --> 00:03:24,780 Speaker 3: what you'd expect from an island of the low country. 45 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:31,020 Speaker 3: Spanish moss of saltwater coves, these brackish marshes that, oh 46 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: my gosh. 47 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: This is such good writing. 48 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,510 Speaker 3: Courtesy of our new research associate, Ames, brackish marshes that smell. 49 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:38,050 Speaker 2: Of pluff mud. 50 00:03:38,870 --> 00:03:41,150 Speaker 3: Know what pluff butt is but i bet it smells 51 00:03:41,210 --> 00:03:45,330 Speaker 3: interesting uh and a ton of other creatures like the 52 00:03:45,350 --> 00:03:52,220 Speaker 3: uh remarkably san rio-esque adorable tiny fiddler crab tiniest fiddler 53 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:55,540 Speaker 3: crab playing the tiniest violin uh you ever did see 54 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: sea turtles uh come uh every year um and lay 55 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 3: their eggs on the shore uh and then of course 56 00:04:02,630 --> 00:04:03,170 Speaker 3: there's the. 57 00:04:03,110 --> 00:04:06,770 Speaker 1: Horses yes yeah which we'll get to in a moment 58 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:12,530 Speaker 1: we promise As far as human beings go, Cumberland was 59 00:04:12,750 --> 00:04:20,970 Speaker 1: originally inhabited by the Timuqua Native people. That is spelled T-I-M-U-C-U-A. 60 00:04:21,410 --> 00:04:28,180 Speaker 1: And their territory stretches between northern Florida into Georgia. However, 61 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,859 Speaker 1: accounts are going to differ on whether or not these 62 00:04:32,020 --> 00:04:36,180 Speaker 1: Native peoples had a year-round presence on the island, or 63 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: maybe they just They just rocked up every so often 64 00:04:40,420 --> 00:04:44,270 Speaker 1: when they needed to, you know, hunt tiny fiddler crabs. 65 00:04:44,870 --> 00:04:50,230 Speaker 1: And this group of people lived there, unbothered by outsiders, 66 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: probably stopping by Cumberland every so often, with no interference 67 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:57,610 Speaker 1: until about the 1500s. 68 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: Oh boy, what was their interference in the 1500s, courtesy 69 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: of master interferers, religious orders of monks, Spanish friars, and 70 00:05:09,779 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 3: as well, of course, the military accompanying them. 71 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,690 Speaker 1: I like that, Noel. I like your phrase, master interferers. 72 00:05:17,750 --> 00:05:18,750 Speaker 1: It's kind of their whole deal. 73 00:05:20,110 --> 00:05:22,930 Speaker 3: I mean, no shade on religion, but they've caused some 74 00:05:22,970 --> 00:05:24,469 Speaker 3: sticky wickets over the years, right? 75 00:05:24,790 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: Right, right, right. So as you're saying, these master interferers, 76 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:34,700 Speaker 1: I'm in love with that phrase, they are rocked up 77 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: and they called the island San Pedro Macama. 78 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: Because like it didn't already have a name. They just, 79 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,779 Speaker 3: you know, hey, you know what? We're the first ones here. 80 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: We'll just plant a flag and call it whatever we want. 81 00:05:45,339 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: Can you imagine? 82 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: The gall? 83 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,730 Speaker 1: Right. Just the absolute chutzpah there. Like, could you and 84 00:05:53,050 --> 00:05:58,430 Speaker 1: I and Max walk into like a random mall? 85 00:05:58,490 --> 00:06:00,890 Speaker 2: Could we walk into- I was thinking random mall too, Ben. 86 00:06:00,910 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: What the heck? I don't know why. So what did 87 00:06:04,180 --> 00:06:04,310 Speaker 2: we say? 88 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,650 Speaker 1: We're going to Cumberland Mall? That's what it is! That's 89 00:06:06,670 --> 00:06:08,710 Speaker 1: what it is! Oh my gosh. 90 00:06:08,790 --> 00:06:12,230 Speaker 3: It's actually my favorite mall here in the Atlanta area. 91 00:06:12,250 --> 00:06:15,050 Speaker 3: It's got a really good arcade called Round One with 92 00:06:15,089 --> 00:06:19,030 Speaker 3: lots of dope Japanese rhythm games and arcade fighters. But no, Ben, 93 00:06:19,270 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: I would not rock up to Cumberland Mall and or 94 00:06:21,390 --> 00:06:24,340 Speaker 3: the Round One arcade and just decide. 95 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:25,969 Speaker 2: At this day forth. 96 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 3: I decree it shall be known as Trump Mall. 97 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: Right. 98 00:06:29,740 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: Sorry. There it is. There it is. 99 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: No, it had to happen. 100 00:06:33,740 --> 00:06:34,860 Speaker 4: Wouldn't it be America Mall? 101 00:06:35,180 --> 00:06:36,380 Speaker 2: Well, there is the Mall of America. 102 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,780 Speaker 1: It is. It is called the Mall of America. I've 103 00:06:39,820 --> 00:06:43,610 Speaker 1: been there. It is the largest mall in the United States. 104 00:06:44,130 --> 00:06:47,330 Speaker 5: Or wouldn't it be Mall of America Mall? Mall America, 105 00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:49,570 Speaker 5: kind of like Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. 106 00:06:49,890 --> 00:06:53,450 Speaker 1: There we go. Or City of London, London. Yeah. 107 00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:55,310 Speaker 2: What's the harm in being redundant? 108 00:06:55,710 --> 00:06:59,270 Speaker 1: Anyway, what we are saying is that these Spanish folks 109 00:06:59,510 --> 00:07:02,430 Speaker 1: were no hate to Spain, but Spanish folks at the 110 00:07:02,470 --> 00:07:07,150 Speaker 1: time were not quite conquistadors, right? They were conquistadors. Conquistador adjacents? 111 00:07:07,350 --> 00:07:08,070 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 112 00:07:08,089 --> 00:07:12,050 Speaker 1: That's great. They were kind of dicks. So they walked 113 00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:15,910 Speaker 1: in like Noel, Max, and I planned to walk into 114 00:07:15,970 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: Cumberland Mall. And they said, forget whatever these folks call it. 115 00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:23,590 Speaker 1: It's San Pedro Bacama now. We're going to build a 116 00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:27,790 Speaker 1: huge fort, you know, for our time. We're also going 117 00:07:27,830 --> 00:07:29,390 Speaker 1: to build a Catholic mission. 118 00:07:29,710 --> 00:07:30,660 Speaker 2: And have some disease. 119 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: And have some disease. And also, this is such a 120 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:41,380 Speaker 1: catbird seat. uh, geographically because they can gather sassafras, which 121 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: is fun to say. And the sassiest frass, it's the 122 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:45,820 Speaker 1: sassiest of the frass. 123 00:07:45,860 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: Everybody knows that. It's like a root, right? You make a, it's, 124 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,860 Speaker 2: you can make, it's like a, a, a sassaparilla. 125 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a, it's a shrub and Europeans loved it 126 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,870 Speaker 1: at the time. They loved their sassafras. Uh, also there's 127 00:08:00,930 --> 00:08:06,970 Speaker 1: this excellent harbor on Cumberland Island, right? which allows these 128 00:08:07,250 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 1: Spanish conquistador-coded types to engage in a lot of trade, 129 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:20,140 Speaker 1: and they're able to meet people from these native communities, right? 130 00:08:20,690 --> 00:08:25,170 Speaker 1: And as you teased there earlier, Noel, this interaction was 131 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:30,250 Speaker 1: very bad for the native people. The Timocua were wiped out. 132 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:36,500 Speaker 1: over the next 300 years by colonization and disease. Yup. 133 00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:41,350 Speaker 3: Can't have one without the other. Well, you could, I suppose. 134 00:08:41,510 --> 00:08:42,390 Speaker 3: Neither of them are great. 135 00:08:42,510 --> 00:08:45,150 Speaker 2: Colonization, there's really no version of that that's like awesome 136 00:08:45,450 --> 00:08:45,990 Speaker 2: for the others. 137 00:08:46,590 --> 00:08:46,750 Speaker 3: Right. 138 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:49,010 Speaker 2: The ones being, the ones what are colonized, yeah? 139 00:08:50,030 --> 00:08:53,250 Speaker 1: It makes you think about what will happen when human 140 00:08:53,330 --> 00:08:58,350 Speaker 1: beings encounter alien species because everything in human history teaches 141 00:08:58,490 --> 00:09:01,730 Speaker 1: us that it's bad for the home team. 142 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:03,010 Speaker 2: Indeed. 143 00:09:03,550 --> 00:09:09,740 Speaker 1: We've also got to mention 1751. This is when human 144 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: slavery becomes a matter of legal fact. Human slavery is 145 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: allowed in Georgia. On the books in 1751, 13 settlers 146 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: receive the very first land grants for Cumberland Island. This 147 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:34,130 Speaker 1: eventually grows into 15 plantations that produce indigo, rice, and cotton, 148 00:09:35,270 --> 00:09:39,810 Speaker 1: all worked by enslaved people. And we don't know what 149 00:09:39,850 --> 00:09:41,270 Speaker 1: happened with the sassafras. 150 00:09:41,790 --> 00:09:43,210 Speaker 2: No, that got lost to history. 151 00:09:43,550 --> 00:09:48,020 Speaker 3: And we have some great sources coming from Georgian Cyclopedia. 152 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: I'm just going to call it that. 153 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:53,599 Speaker 3: I guess it's really Georgia Encyclopedia, but Georgian Cyclopedia sounds cooler. 154 00:09:54,140 --> 00:09:58,210 Speaker 3: and their entry on Cumberland Island. They said before 1800, 155 00:09:58,210 --> 00:10:01,819 Speaker 3: Cumberland was almost entirely uninhabited. but by 1860, there were 156 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 3: more than 500 enslaved people who resided there, which was 157 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: a 7 to 1 ratio of enslaved to free whites. 158 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:13,020 Speaker 3: And at the end of the Civil War, 1861 to 65, 159 00:10:13,020 --> 00:10:19,579 Speaker 3: you had true occupation type situation. Military authorities placed Cumberland 160 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: Island within the Sherman Reservation, the Sherman Reservation occupation, which 161 00:10:24,740 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 3: is a 30 mile wide land reserve that ran the 162 00:10:28,059 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: length of the Georgia, South Carolina coast, which then, you know, 163 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,689 Speaker 3: as residents of Georgia, it feels like Our coast sort 164 00:10:36,730 --> 00:10:40,309 Speaker 3: of gets lost in the, you know, the beauty of coasts. 165 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:43,870 Speaker 3: But it is quite lovely and great places to vacation. 166 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:47,630 Speaker 3: You know, Savannah, Charleston, you know, some really, really cool spots. 167 00:10:48,340 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And shout out to that broken arrow off 168 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: the coast. 169 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: Who else is going to bring you? Right. 170 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,860 Speaker 3: Broken arrow being a, what is it, an unexploded nuclear weapon? 171 00:11:01,290 --> 00:11:04,870 Speaker 1: Or a lost one, right? Yes, a nuclear device. They're 172 00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:07,990 Speaker 1: in the, as Ames calls it, pluff mud. 173 00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:11,420 Speaker 3: The rich and ripe smell of pluff mud. 174 00:11:11,690 --> 00:11:17,110 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah. We know that there was a small settlement 175 00:11:17,470 --> 00:11:22,330 Speaker 1: of freed people or free people that grew around Cumberland. 176 00:11:22,830 --> 00:11:24,210 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're in language. 177 00:11:24,370 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Gullah, which is cool. 178 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:27,770 Speaker 2: Gullah Geechee. 179 00:11:28,260 --> 00:11:31,300 Speaker 3: They're the people. And of course, y'all may remember growing 180 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,059 Speaker 3: up Gullah Gullah Island on Nick Jr. I just remember 181 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:37,390 Speaker 3: there being like a giant tree frog, but that's about 182 00:11:37,429 --> 00:11:39,810 Speaker 3: all I remember. There are Gullah speakers that came up, 183 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:43,130 Speaker 3: of course, or that inhabited areas around Savannah as well. 184 00:11:43,150 --> 00:11:47,770 Speaker 3: I just remember when I did public radio news for Georgia, 185 00:11:48,429 --> 00:11:50,340 Speaker 3: one of my colleagues was based in Savannah and he 186 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,380 Speaker 3: was always doing stories about sea turtles and Gullah history 187 00:11:53,940 --> 00:11:54,620 Speaker 3: and other stuff. 188 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: But I just remember quite a lot of sea turtles 189 00:11:57,059 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: and Gullah. 190 00:11:58,390 --> 00:12:01,450 Speaker 1: That's such a cool job, man. What a catbird seat 191 00:12:01,490 --> 00:12:04,150 Speaker 1: that you could just become curious about something and put 192 00:12:04,190 --> 00:12:04,750 Speaker 1: it on the air. 193 00:12:04,950 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, those were the days. Back when there was funding. 194 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: It is nice to see that they are still going strong, 195 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: Georgia Public Radio. 196 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,260 Speaker 1: Yes, we are huge fans of public radio. It was 197 00:12:16,540 --> 00:12:19,750 Speaker 1: also during this period, not the period of radio, but 198 00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:25,069 Speaker 1: during like the early 1800s, that there was a mansion 199 00:12:25,150 --> 00:12:29,370 Speaker 1: built on Cumberland Island. We have to introduce. 200 00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:30,110 Speaker 2: You to— Dare we say a manor? 201 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:34,370 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. It was definitely a manor of mansion. It 202 00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:42,980 Speaker 1: was built by a revolutionary war hero named Nathaniel Green. General? Yeah, 203 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: General Nathaniel Green. 204 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:44,819 Speaker 2: But you're right. 205 00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:46,820 Speaker 3: We should say his rank. Well, you know, that was 206 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:49,390 Speaker 3: his title, I guess. He had the bona fides. The 207 00:12:49,429 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: mansion was five stories. It was made of a really 208 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 3: interesting material. I guess I can sort of liken it 209 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: to adobe, a mixture of broken oyster shells, ash, water, 210 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,300 Speaker 3: and sand that was mixed locally. 211 00:13:02,830 --> 00:13:06,850 Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of. It reminds me of some other forts 212 00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:12,410 Speaker 1: maybe down south in Florida. And they named the house Ames. 213 00:13:13,309 --> 00:13:16,620 Speaker 1: I agree with you that rich people do have a 214 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: weird habit of naming estates. They named it Dungeness Plantation. 215 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 3: After the crabs, no doubt. Or perhaps the crabs are 216 00:13:23,980 --> 00:13:25,020 Speaker 3: named after the plantation. 217 00:13:25,059 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: Hard to say. 218 00:13:25,870 --> 00:13:31,790 Speaker 1: Hard to say. This manor of mansion burned down in 1866, 219 00:13:31,790 --> 00:13:35,910 Speaker 1: but it was a, dare we say, beachhead. It was 220 00:13:36,450 --> 00:13:41,110 Speaker 1: just the first of dynasties that would later settle into 221 00:13:41,309 --> 00:13:45,150 Speaker 1: Cumberland Island. And, Noel, I got to tell you, man, 222 00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: I remember having to go to Sea Island. in, uh, 223 00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: off the coast of Georgia, uh, where apparently a lot 224 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,530 Speaker 1: of very wealthy people have their, I don't know, winter homes. 225 00:13:59,770 --> 00:13:59,929 Speaker 2: Yeah. 226 00:13:59,990 --> 00:14:02,490 Speaker 3: Well, I can't remember. We talked recently about St. Simon's 227 00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:05,610 Speaker 3: Island and a lot of these very wealthy enclaves, uh, 228 00:14:05,630 --> 00:14:08,949 Speaker 3: in coastal, on coastal Georgia and South Carolina. Um, but yeah, 229 00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:11,780 Speaker 3: Sea Island is definitely one of those as well. Um, 230 00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:15,870 Speaker 3: Lucy Carnegie, who is the wife of the less famous 231 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:21,190 Speaker 3: younger brother of Andrew Carnegie, the also-ran Carnegie, Thomas Carnegie. 232 00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:27,170 Speaker 1: I love that this guy is long dead. Yeah, and we're. 233 00:14:26,650 --> 00:14:30,170 Speaker 2: Making him from beyond the grave. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Thomas. 234 00:14:30,370 --> 00:14:32,650 Speaker 2: I'm sure you had stuff going on. But, you know, 235 00:14:33,130 --> 00:14:35,030 Speaker 2: Andrew was kind of a bit of a bigger deal. 236 00:14:35,090 --> 00:14:37,770 Speaker 2: It's hard to exist in that shadow, even post-mortem. 237 00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:41,380 Speaker 3: But his wife, Lucy, visited Cumberland as a tourist once. 238 00:14:41,660 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: and really, really liked it. Had a great time, was 239 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:49,260 Speaker 3: absolutely captivated by the smell of puff mud and all 240 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,980 Speaker 3: of the other features of the island. The history of 241 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:58,340 Speaker 3: Dungeness really interested her as well. So she and her 242 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:05,220 Speaker 3: husband set about purchasing some ruins, areas, though it was 243 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:08,020 Speaker 3: a little difficult since the owner of the Dungeness estate 244 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:17,730 Speaker 3: wasn't really trying to sell it, a Yankee. Right. 245 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,830 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was that time in American history. 246 00:15:22,570 --> 00:15:29,050 Speaker 1: And the problem was for the owner that the Carnegie's have, spoiler, 247 00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:33,710 Speaker 1: a lot of money. And they were set upon this idea. 248 00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: Lucy Carnegie really wanted to own this history. So eventually 249 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,790 Speaker 1: the owner of the estate said, all right. I will 250 00:15:42,850 --> 00:15:45,930 Speaker 1: sell it to you. The Carnegie say, yay, we've got 251 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: our new home in Cumberland Island, but they didn't stop there. 252 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,700 Speaker 1: Noel over time, they tried to buy the rest of 253 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: the Island as well. 254 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,340 Speaker 2: What rich people buying up all the land. 255 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,700 Speaker 3: I don't know about that then that doesn't seem right. 256 00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:05,010 Speaker 3: A year later, Carnegie and a business associate of his, 257 00:16:05,050 --> 00:16:09,430 Speaker 3: a guy named Leander Morris, um, Is that nominative determinism? 258 00:16:09,490 --> 00:16:11,790 Speaker 3: It just sounds like lender, but I'm not sure if 259 00:16:11,810 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: he was in banking or not. He bought the adjacent 260 00:16:16,660 --> 00:16:21,180 Speaker 3: 8,240-acre Stafford plantation, which also came with a mansion, from 261 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:26,340 Speaker 3: the heirs of a cotton baron for. 262 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,060 Speaker 2: $ 40, 000. Can't get an extra value meal for less than 263 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: $ 40, 000 these days. In 1886, Lucy acquired Morris's part. 264 00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:42,850 Speaker 3: Of the Stafford land for as little as $ 38, 000. 265 00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:43,070 Speaker 1: Which is still a crazy amount of money. We're not 266 00:16:43,150 --> 00:16:46,190 Speaker 1: going to do the inflation calculator right now. 267 00:16:46,210 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: We already know it's pennies. I mean, it's already too cheap. 268 00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 3: So what's the point? Add insult to injury. 269 00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:52,359 Speaker 2: Why don't we? 270 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: And so Lucy Carnegie, through various proxies, would continue to 271 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: add island real estate to her portfolio. stuff to her 272 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,780 Speaker 1: dragon pile for the rest of her life she ultimately 273 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,310 Speaker 1: controlled the southern 90 percent of the island so shout 274 00:17:13,410 --> 00:17:15,889 Speaker 1: out to the people who refuse to sell. 275 00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:21,820 Speaker 3: The holdouts yeah Thomas passed away in disgrace in 1886. 276 00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:25,060 Speaker 3: Why am I so down on this guy? In 1886, 277 00:17:25,060 --> 00:17:29,530 Speaker 3: just after retiring. But he did create quite the presence, 278 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,330 Speaker 3: cast quite the shadow on the island of Cumberland before 279 00:17:32,369 --> 00:17:35,970 Speaker 3: his passing. He commissioned the construction of a two-story Queen 280 00:17:36,170 --> 00:17:41,330 Speaker 3: Anne-style home where the ruins of that dungeness manor once 281 00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: stood that had roads put in connecting the existing structures 282 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: of the family and purchasing. This is like, approaching an old. 283 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:55,090 Speaker 2: English, like, manor compound kind of situation. In that style, right? 284 00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:59,169 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It's definitely a compound at this point because 285 00:17:59,210 --> 00:18:02,949 Speaker 1: if you have to put roads in between cities The 286 00:18:03,070 --> 00:18:06,270 Speaker 1: various things you have built, you are no longer in 287 00:18:06,330 --> 00:18:07,350 Speaker 1: a townhome. No, no. 288 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:08,590 Speaker 2: You got to have a gamekeeper. 289 00:18:09,550 --> 00:18:13,659 Speaker 1: Yeah, right. You got to have people with weirdly specific jobs. Oh, 290 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: the footman. Oh, there's a guy. The master of arms. Yeah, 291 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: the master of arms. Here's the guy we pay to 292 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: sleep in the rough in our garden and dress like 293 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:28,550 Speaker 1: a gnome. Remember that? The garden gnome thing? 294 00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:32,330 Speaker 3: Oh, the flex, the weird historical flex of hiring a 295 00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:34,770 Speaker 3: human garden gnome. 296 00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:38,470 Speaker 1: Yes, they were so close to that kind of cosplay. 297 00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:43,620 Speaker 1: After Thomas, who, Noel, you obviously hate, after he passes away. 298 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,010 Speaker 2: I feel better about him now. I'm warming up to him. 299 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:47,740 Speaker 1: You're warming up. 300 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 3: But though I'm not quite sure if we're going to 301 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: get to any weird racist stuff. 302 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 2: So I reserve judgment. Okay, there we go. 303 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,229 Speaker 1: That's fair. After this guy passes away, his wife, newly widowed, 304 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: continues to build and expand the estate. The compound itself, 305 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,860 Speaker 1: or actually the house itself, grows to over 50 rooms, 306 00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:15,550 Speaker 1: and then they have all sorts of things, all sorts 307 00:19:15,609 --> 00:19:19,330 Speaker 1: of weird rich people things. We know it ultimately came 308 00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:23,770 Speaker 1: to be called the Dungeness Complex, right? This is more 309 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:29,010 Speaker 1: than 20 buildings, right? their walls, their decorations. There's a 310 00:19:29,250 --> 00:19:34,869 Speaker 1: colonnaded walkway, which we just learned the word for, a pergola. 311 00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: Indeed. 312 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 3: You had yourself an olive orchard, a garden, you know, 313 00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:42,500 Speaker 3: which I guess that's in the British parlance as well. 314 00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:46,850 Speaker 3: You had some greenhouses, a dairy pasture for cows to 315 00:19:47,109 --> 00:19:47,609 Speaker 3: roam free. 316 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,230 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think they're growing milk. 317 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,820 Speaker 2: That's not a thing that can happen. 318 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,140 Speaker 3: Although, wouldn't that be funny if the BBC had done, like, 319 00:19:54,180 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: a mockumentary about, like, milk trees? 320 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,169 Speaker 2: Remember the spaghetti trees? 321 00:19:58,290 --> 00:19:59,409 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a good one. 322 00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:00,770 Speaker 2: Yup. 323 00:20:00,850 --> 00:20:03,850 Speaker 3: So the Carnegies, oh, not to mention a smokehouse, an 324 00:20:04,010 --> 00:20:06,450 Speaker 3: ice house, because I guess, yeah, they had to, like, 325 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 3: create ice in refrigerated facilities. 326 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 327 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: Folks were saying, just picture whatever your weirdest whim is. 328 00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:16,179 Speaker 1: And they had a house for that. And they had 329 00:20:16,220 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: a name for that house. 330 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: Yup. They also had multiple houses, housing, even for their staff, uh, 331 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 3: of 200, which was of course. 332 00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 2: Uh, here we are. 333 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: There it is by race. 334 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 4: There it is. Yeah. 335 00:20:29,340 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: You called it. 336 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,619 Speaker 2: That's that guy. 337 00:20:31,660 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: You called it. 338 00:20:32,270 --> 00:20:33,620 Speaker 2: You were right. Family line. 339 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,710 Speaker 1: They, they, They had this crazy lifestyle, and a lot 340 00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:43,189 Speaker 1: of the bachelor sons of the Carnegies would stay on 341 00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:49,730 Speaker 1: the island routinely. Eventually, the Carnegie dynasty moves out of 342 00:20:49,790 --> 00:20:55,100 Speaker 1: the Dungeness complex in 1952, and they did it because, 343 00:20:55,210 --> 00:21:00,140 Speaker 1: get this, folks, really wealthy people are also cartoonish cheapskates. 344 00:21:00,859 --> 00:21:05,830 Speaker 1: They said it was too expensive to maintain this crazy endeavor. 345 00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: And the house burns to the ground in 1959, this 346 00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: time due to arson, not accident. It reminds me a 347 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: little bit of our earlier series on Frank Lloyd Wright. 348 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,859 Speaker 3: The whole disgruntled staffer, I guess, for lack of a 349 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,050 Speaker 3: better term, that burned the building down. Yeah. 350 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:25,470 Speaker 2: Crazy. 351 00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:30,490 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And you think about it without being undiplomatic, 352 00:21:32,430 --> 00:21:36,270 Speaker 1: you can see where someone is coming from, right? If 353 00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:39,830 Speaker 1: you're put in that kind of situation, why not burn 354 00:21:39,869 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: it down? So the structures are still standing, or the 355 00:21:44,859 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: ruins of Dungeness Complex. You can visit them if you 356 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: tour Cumberland Island today. You will also see Plum Orchard Mansion, 357 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,550 Speaker 1: which was a wedding gift to George Carnegie. Can you imagine... 358 00:22:02,830 --> 00:22:06,590 Speaker 1: Can you imagine giving someone a mansion as a wedding gift? 359 00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:08,810 Speaker 2: It's a bit of a flex. It's a step up 360 00:22:08,850 --> 00:22:09,530 Speaker 2: from a Lambo. 361 00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:12,169 Speaker 1: It's a step up from a Lambo. 362 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:13,389 Speaker 4: Yeah. 363 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: Plum Orchard was donated to the NPS, National Park Service. 364 00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: We're big fans. In 1972, another structure called Grayfield now 365 00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:31,050 Speaker 1: serves as a hotel. or like a bed and breakfast 366 00:22:31,090 --> 00:22:34,189 Speaker 1: kind of thing. You can visit and sleep there. The 367 00:22:34,270 --> 00:22:36,300 Speaker 1: Carnegie family still owns it. 368 00:22:36,750 --> 00:22:37,490 Speaker 2: They sure do. 369 00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: So, lest you're thinking that the Carnegies are the only 370 00:22:41,660 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: rich folks to ever plant their flag in Cumberland Island, well, 371 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,460 Speaker 3: you'd be mistaken. It's also famous for hosting the secret 372 00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:53,429 Speaker 3: wedding of, I love the secret wedding, of John F. 373 00:22:53,490 --> 00:22:57,130 Speaker 2: Kennedy, heard of him, junior rather, and Carolyn Bessette. 374 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 3: Specifically, the ceremony took place at the First African Baptist 375 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:06,260 Speaker 3: Church with a reception at Grayfield following. 376 00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:12,420 Speaker 1: Oh, geez. Yeah, the inn from earlier. Okay, we promised 377 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,540 Speaker 1: you horses, folks. Here are the horses. Ames really came 378 00:23:16,580 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: through on this one. The other unusual feature of Cumberland Island, 379 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: like apart from the weird life of American aristocrats, is 380 00:23:26,670 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: wild horses. And we kept, off mic, we kept singing 381 00:23:31,460 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: that frickin' song. 382 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 2: Couldn't drag me away from that frickin' melody. It's so beautiful. 383 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: Really got its heels dug in, or its hooves. There 384 00:23:39,859 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 2: we are. 385 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:45,530 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is some evidence that these wild horses came 386 00:23:45,630 --> 00:23:49,830 Speaker 1: to the island as early as the 1500s, but we 387 00:23:50,010 --> 00:23:56,270 Speaker 1: only have written records of them dating back to 1742. 388 00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 3: By the end of the 1700s, island landowners were reporting 389 00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:11,580 Speaker 3: an estimated population of around 200 horses, as well as 390 00:24:11,619 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: some mules and some free Roman livestock on Cumberland Island. 391 00:24:16,780 --> 00:24:20,510 Speaker 3: In the 1800s, though, several of the plantations were being 392 00:24:20,619 --> 00:24:23,490 Speaker 3: operated on the island, and horses actually played an important 393 00:24:23,570 --> 00:24:27,990 Speaker 3: part in transporting folks, you know, because these are, you know, 394 00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:31,070 Speaker 3: on those roads, on those dirt roads, as well as, 395 00:24:31,690 --> 00:24:34,370 Speaker 3: I guess they would Pull plows or something? 396 00:24:34,410 --> 00:24:34,689 Speaker 2: I don't know. 397 00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:37,330 Speaker 3: They would pull something. They would be workhorses, as the 398 00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:40,790 Speaker 3: saying goes. And as well as, you know, horse riding, 399 00:24:40,910 --> 00:24:42,430 Speaker 3: horseback riding for funsies. 400 00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:48,090 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And your pals, the Carnegie's folks, they contributed 401 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:52,229 Speaker 1: to this population. They had a stable of over 50 402 00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:57,340 Speaker 1: horses for exactly what you just described, Noel. I've got 403 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: to note this. Riding, hunting, and carriage pooling. 404 00:25:01,690 --> 00:25:02,369 Speaker 2: Aha, carriage. 405 00:25:02,609 --> 00:25:04,990 Speaker 3: Ben, off mic, or not off mic, on mic, but 406 00:25:05,050 --> 00:25:08,290 Speaker 3: off topic slightly, did you hear that they are ending 407 00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:11,150 Speaker 3: carriage culture in New York City? 408 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 2: The whole like around Central Park. Yeah, I think so too. 409 00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: There have been issues. 410 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: There was some legislation because I think a young boy 411 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 3: was killed or trampled. And of course, it's also not 412 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:23,980 Speaker 3: particularly awesome for the horses, not to mention that it 413 00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:27,530 Speaker 3: smells like horse poop around there pretty often. I just 414 00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:30,350 Speaker 3: rode my bike from Queens to the theater district to 415 00:25:30,369 --> 00:25:32,340 Speaker 3: see a show. And man, you have to cross the 416 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,490 Speaker 3: little circle, Columbus Circle, and it smells like straight up dookie. 417 00:25:36,050 --> 00:25:38,490 Speaker 2: But this is a good thing. I think that's pretty awesome. 418 00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:40,050 Speaker 1: I had no idea. 419 00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:40,650 Speaker 3: This is new. 420 00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:43,910 Speaker 1: I think I just saw this yesterday. That's great news, though. 421 00:25:43,950 --> 00:25:47,300 Speaker 1: I remember a few years ago, our pal Jon Stewart 422 00:25:47,470 --> 00:25:53,180 Speaker 1: was railing about the horses. It's bad for the horses, right? 423 00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:56,300 Speaker 1: It's bad to make them pull carriages. But that was 424 00:25:56,340 --> 00:25:57,300 Speaker 1: the way of the world. 425 00:25:57,980 --> 00:26:00,140 Speaker 3: It's not that far off from the elephant show. 426 00:26:00,730 --> 00:26:02,500 Speaker 2: Episode that we did on Stuff They Don't Want You 427 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:02,820 Speaker 2: to Know. 428 00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:04,060 Speaker 1: Oh, man. 429 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:04,780 Speaker 2: Yeah. 430 00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:07,820 Speaker 1: And we've got a SeaWorld episode coming up. So stay 431 00:26:07,859 --> 00:26:13,660 Speaker 1: tuned for that one, folks. So the horses, they stay, right, 432 00:26:13,859 --> 00:26:18,590 Speaker 1: after the Carnegie's leave in the 50s. Between the 1940s 433 00:26:18,690 --> 00:26:23,710 Speaker 1: and the 1960s, these horses are considered free range. You 434 00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:26,450 Speaker 1: live on the island, you see some horses, and you're 435 00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:28,610 Speaker 1: just like, oh, there goes Big Joe. 436 00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:30,410 Speaker 2: Big Joe. 437 00:26:31,109 --> 00:26:37,690 Speaker 6: Yeah, riding on his steed. Yeah, and by 1972, the 438 00:26:37,869 --> 00:26:41,169 Speaker 6: horses have survived on the island. 439 00:26:41,260 --> 00:26:47,379 Speaker 1: They're reproducing. Now we have wild or feral horses. Also, 440 00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: Ames wants everybody to know that feral horses is a 441 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,350 Speaker 1: sick band name. I think it's pretty good. 442 00:26:54,810 --> 00:26:55,790 Speaker 2: Dude, absolutely. 443 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:57,030 Speaker 3: And I just think, I don't know, what do you 444 00:26:57,050 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 3: think of, Feral versus wild in terms of terminology. Doesn't 445 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 3: feral have a bit of a connotation of like they're 446 00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 3: going to bite your face? 447 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: Feral has some baggage with it. 448 00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:11,149 Speaker 2: I think it's got a little bag of badger baggage, yes. 449 00:27:11,390 --> 00:27:18,310 Speaker 1: There it does. We'll keep it. As technically an invasive species, 450 00:27:19,070 --> 00:27:24,010 Speaker 1: these horses are non-native animals. They are not in any 451 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:28,500 Speaker 1: way really managed by humans. There's no population control, no 452 00:27:28,580 --> 00:27:34,380 Speaker 1: veterinary care. Nobody is– there's no government agency that makes 453 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,740 Speaker 1: sure they get food and water. 454 00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:39,110 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that also would include it's not 455 00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:42,450 Speaker 3: like they're being fitted with horseshoes, right? They're out there 456 00:27:42,730 --> 00:27:44,190 Speaker 3: doing their thing all natural. 457 00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:47,190 Speaker 1: Yeah, which can be pretty rough. 458 00:27:47,410 --> 00:27:50,870 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. For sure. It's not all natural. 459 00:27:51,410 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: Right, right. These guys are made for the vast plains, right? 460 00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: The steppes of Central Asia and stuff like that. 461 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,740 Speaker 3: Didn't they contribute to kind of some of the like 462 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,290 Speaker 3: some management of the environment? 463 00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:09,090 Speaker 2: Like they would, you know, eat. 464 00:28:09,330 --> 00:28:12,730 Speaker 3: Vegetation and kind of contribute to, you know, so you 465 00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:14,189 Speaker 3: got to cut that stuff back. But if you have 466 00:28:14,210 --> 00:28:16,270 Speaker 3: a bunch of horses eating it, then it can help 467 00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:19,270 Speaker 3: prevent wildfires and help things grow, etc. 468 00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:24,300 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're grazers. They're not built for the terrain of 469 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:28,860 Speaker 1: the forest on the island. They don't get the ideal 470 00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:32,540 Speaker 1: amount of food. Their average lifespan is only eight to 471 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,810 Speaker 1: nine years, which is scary and sad. And now, to 472 00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:41,150 Speaker 1: your point, Noel, there is this grand debate between animal 473 00:28:41,270 --> 00:28:46,970 Speaker 1: rights advocates and then conservationists, fans of horses and fans 474 00:28:47,290 --> 00:28:53,210 Speaker 1: of earth. So the... The conservationists are going to tell 475 00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:56,870 Speaker 1: you that there's a lot of harm caused by these 476 00:28:56,930 --> 00:29:01,170 Speaker 1: horses to the island because they are grazing too much. 477 00:29:01,970 --> 00:29:05,500 Speaker 1: And the fact that they're, you know, always eating, always 478 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,740 Speaker 1: eating different plants reduces plant cover, plant growth. Yeah. 479 00:29:10,220 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 480 00:29:10,820 --> 00:29:12,220 Speaker 3: And it's the kind of stuff that like you would 481 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 3: need folks to take care of. like if you have 482 00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:17,670 Speaker 3: anybody i've never had the pleasure i have a backyard 483 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:19,690 Speaker 3: that i have a guy that comes and helps me 484 00:29:19,730 --> 00:29:22,430 Speaker 3: with because that you know it can get really cool 485 00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:25,430 Speaker 3: backyard thank you ben i do appreciate it but my 486 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:27,130 Speaker 3: dude just came yesterday and he's the guy that kind 487 00:29:27,150 --> 00:29:28,990 Speaker 3: of did a lot of the landscaping and put in 488 00:29:29,050 --> 00:29:32,090 Speaker 3: some like rain what's it called like a rain burn 489 00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:33,930 Speaker 3: or something like that but it's got a rain garden 490 00:29:33,950 --> 00:29:37,450 Speaker 3: but it overgrows so easily and it can get out 491 00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 3: of hand i can't imagine having the amount of land 492 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 3: that some of these millionaires were having to deal with. 493 00:29:42,820 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: Not that they couldn't afford to have folks to cut 494 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 3: it back for them, but what a convenience to have 495 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,110 Speaker 3: it kind of come with the property. 496 00:29:49,210 --> 00:29:52,090 Speaker 2: You got this built in like, you know, garbage disposals. 497 00:29:53,090 --> 00:29:57,900 Speaker 1: And we have one very anti-horse source. which I didn't 498 00:29:57,940 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: think we'd say today. But we have one very anti-horse 499 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: source called Visitor Use Management Plan for Cumberland. And they 500 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,020 Speaker 1: tell us, quote, the feral, to your point, Noel, horse 501 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: herd likely consumes between 200 to 400 tons of vegetation 502 00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: each year and removes up to 98% of vegetation in 503 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:25,590 Speaker 1: areas they frequent. So our visitor use pals are telling us, apparently, 504 00:30:26,050 --> 00:30:30,730 Speaker 1: that if these wild horses still roam free on Cumberland Island, 505 00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:34,830 Speaker 1: eventually they're going to eat the forest. 506 00:30:35,450 --> 00:30:37,590 Speaker 2: They're going to eat the forest. Well said. 507 00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:43,370 Speaker 3: Yeah, just munching down on some veg. Different solutions have 508 00:30:43,410 --> 00:30:47,510 Speaker 3: been proposed to provide care for these horses, and that 509 00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:52,530 Speaker 3: includes things like providing contraception, adopting young foals from off 510 00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:56,810 Speaker 3: of the island, But it does remain a continuous issue. 511 00:30:57,510 --> 00:31:01,340 Speaker 3: The idea of maybe the population becoming unsustainable, right? 512 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:02,820 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 513 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,459 Speaker 3: Not being enough resources for them to be able to 514 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,220 Speaker 3: exist naturally as they have. That's why hunting is not 515 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,350 Speaker 3: always awful, right? 100%. That's why people get hunting licenses, 516 00:31:14,410 --> 00:31:18,750 Speaker 3: because it helps manage the population so that deer, for example, 517 00:31:18,930 --> 00:31:22,330 Speaker 3: don't get... crowded out by their own population, and then 518 00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:25,090 Speaker 3: the resources that they need to survive become too scarce. 519 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: Right, yeah. And if we don't have people or other 520 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,540 Speaker 1: animals hunting rabbits, then eventually they're going to terrorize everybody, 521 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: including Napoleon. 522 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,380 Speaker 2: Ben, we've talked about this before. 523 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,140 Speaker 3: Isn't it interesting, though, how, you know, it's okay to 524 00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:45,650 Speaker 3: hunt deer, who are majestic, beautiful creatures. Borderline, rabbits are 525 00:31:45,690 --> 00:31:49,050 Speaker 3: sort of on the fence for some people, but hunting horses? 526 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,340 Speaker 2: No good. Not in this country. I mean, come on. 527 00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting that they should, but it is just 528 00:31:55,220 --> 00:31:59,380 Speaker 3: that disconnect in different cultures as to what animals are 529 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,950 Speaker 3: off limits. I always find it particularly fascinating because as 530 00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:06,610 Speaker 3: we know in other countries, eating horses is no big deal. 531 00:32:06,730 --> 00:32:09,030 Speaker 2: They're as popular, if not more popular, than beef. 532 00:32:10,330 --> 00:32:12,050 Speaker 5: That's exactly what I was going to jump in and say. 533 00:32:12,090 --> 00:32:14,250 Speaker 5: It's like, you know, horses are just not as tasty. 534 00:32:14,410 --> 00:32:17,990 Speaker 5: Quote Futurama, we eat humans if they didn't taste like crap. 535 00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. 536 00:32:19,460 --> 00:32:23,220 Speaker 1: And thank you there, Max. As we know, longtime listeners, 537 00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:27,700 Speaker 1: I have eaten many things. One of those things was horse. 538 00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:32,300 Speaker 1: I've actually had horse sashimi, which was not bad. I'm 539 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: going to say it wasn't bad. 540 00:32:33,740 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 3: Well, and Ben, if I'm not mistaken, I know you 541 00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: always go out for the wild meats from your snack 542 00:32:38,580 --> 00:32:42,380 Speaker 3: stuff days and just your general culinary adventurous spirit. But 543 00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:44,540 Speaker 3: when we were in the Middle East, I think you 544 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:45,580 Speaker 3: got a camel kebab. 545 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: I did. 546 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,220 Speaker 1: Yes. 547 00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 2: What was that like? 548 00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:53,850 Speaker 1: Gamey? Yeah, it had some game to it, Noel. It 549 00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:54,930 Speaker 1: had some game to it. 550 00:32:55,170 --> 00:32:57,070 Speaker 3: I think gamey is such a funny term for the 551 00:32:57,110 --> 00:33:02,610 Speaker 3: way something tastes. It doesn't really mean anything. 552 00:33:03,150 --> 00:33:07,130 Speaker 1: It feels like a British person's insult. Oh, you've got 553 00:33:07,170 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: a bit of game upon you. Well, if someone stinks, 554 00:33:10,740 --> 00:33:14,980 Speaker 1: they will say you smell a little gamey. That is 555 00:33:15,020 --> 00:33:17,070 Speaker 1: a thing people say from time to time. 556 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,170 Speaker 2: Oh, man. 557 00:33:18,190 --> 00:33:20,310 Speaker 3: Ben, I think we should wrap this up with a 558 00:33:20,330 --> 00:33:23,410 Speaker 3: little bit of tangents and trivia rather than save it 559 00:33:23,510 --> 00:33:25,610 Speaker 3: for a listicle episode because I think this is a 560 00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:28,870 Speaker 3: good little supplement. And thanks again to brand new research 561 00:33:28,890 --> 00:33:31,110 Speaker 3: associate Ames for rocking out this brief. 562 00:33:31,410 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So one of the big badgers or the 563 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,750 Speaker 1: big pickle here is that tourists love badgers. visiting cumberland 564 00:33:40,990 --> 00:33:45,690 Speaker 1: island and love seeing the wild or feral horses trotting 565 00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:49,130 Speaker 1: around eating up the forest if you want to visit 566 00:33:49,210 --> 00:33:53,620 Speaker 1: cumberland island you have to realize that the rules nowadays 567 00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: are pretty strict no i think they limit how many 568 00:33:58,620 --> 00:34:00,340 Speaker 1: people can be there at once. 569 00:34:00,940 --> 00:34:05,070 Speaker 3: Exactly which also makes sense because humans can be something 570 00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:08,650 Speaker 3: of an invasive species if they overcrowd places. 571 00:34:08,730 --> 00:34:11,900 Speaker 2: Look at Mount Everest, for example. Not good. 572 00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 3: There has apparently been a documentary that has been making 573 00:34:15,140 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 3: the festival rounds about the Mount Everest kind of Sherpa 574 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,830 Speaker 3: phenomenon and how it's absolutely just being overcrowded by these millionaires, 575 00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:28,529 Speaker 3: adventure enthusiasts, and causing all kinds of problems to the 576 00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:31,420 Speaker 3: natural beauty of that place. This is interesting, and I'm 577 00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:33,820 Speaker 3: glad that they are keeping this in mind. Only 300 578 00:34:33,820 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 3: visitors can be there at any given day. No cars 579 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 3: or carts are allowed. The island can only be accessed 580 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,870 Speaker 3: by boat, and there are no shops or restaurants. So 581 00:34:43,890 --> 00:34:45,750 Speaker 3: people are trying to, like, get away from it all. 582 00:34:46,350 --> 00:34:48,930 Speaker 3: What a good way to do it. No, I mean, 583 00:34:48,969 --> 00:34:51,330 Speaker 3: give it time, I guess. Indiana got to wonder, like, 584 00:34:51,390 --> 00:34:53,290 Speaker 3: is there something in the bylaws, or how does that work? 585 00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:57,340 Speaker 3: Because we know corporations want to, like, dig their hooks 586 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,140 Speaker 3: into these remote type places and get you a Starbucks 587 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:02,350 Speaker 3: set up or whatever. So there must be something actively 588 00:35:02,410 --> 00:35:03,550 Speaker 3: preventing that from happening. 589 00:35:03,850 --> 00:35:07,189 Speaker 1: Also, how do we define cart? Like you can't have 590 00:35:07,230 --> 00:35:10,569 Speaker 1: a little red wagon that you pull around. Like you 591 00:35:10,630 --> 00:35:15,589 Speaker 1: can't have a little basket on wheels. Like what is 592 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: a cart? How strict are they with it? Apparently pretty strict. 593 00:35:20,010 --> 00:35:23,430 Speaker 1: And if you have the chance to visit Cumberland Island, 594 00:35:23,830 --> 00:35:27,990 Speaker 1: please tell us about your experience and let us know 595 00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:31,450 Speaker 1: if you got close to one of the horses. That's 596 00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:35,430 Speaker 1: our show. Thank you so much to our super producer, Mr. Max, 597 00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:36,890 Speaker 1: the wild horse, Williams. 598 00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:38,810 Speaker 2: Huge thanks. Minor thanks. 599 00:35:39,530 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 3: Begrudging thanks to Jonathan, the beast of burden, Strickland. 600 00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: The quizster. 601 00:35:44,540 --> 00:35:48,950 Speaker 1: Oh, that's perfect. And Jonathan, if you're listening, yes, sometimes 602 00:35:49,050 --> 00:35:51,609 Speaker 1: Noel and I go off mic to really think about 603 00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:55,390 Speaker 1: the best way to politely insult you. Exactly. 604 00:35:55,770 --> 00:35:55,989 Speaker 3: Yes. 605 00:35:56,469 --> 00:35:56,709 Speaker 5: Fine. 606 00:35:56,750 --> 00:35:57,810 Speaker 2: How do you do to you, sir? 607 00:35:58,270 --> 00:36:02,220 Speaker 1: And A.J. Bahamas Jacobs, a.k.a. The Puzzler, of course, Dr. 608 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,700 Speaker 1: Rachel Big Spinach Lance, Eve's Jeffcoat, Christopher Haciotis, Ridiculous Crime. 609 00:36:08,780 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: I kind of know. Have you ever ridden a horse? 610 00:36:11,580 --> 00:36:14,700 Speaker 3: It's been a long time, Ben. It's been a long time. 611 00:36:14,820 --> 00:36:17,089 Speaker 3: I did, surely, when I was a young lad, but 612 00:36:17,140 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 3: not in. 613 00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:20,370 Speaker 2: My adult life have I ridden a horse. 614 00:36:21,150 --> 00:36:21,410 Speaker 6: Yeah. 615 00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:23,430 Speaker 1: I should ride the more than Ethan. 616 00:36:24,989 --> 00:36:27,069 Speaker 2: Fair, Ben. We'll see you next time, folks. 617 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,980 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 618 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,100 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.