Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life.
Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me.
Speaker 2: Everything like everything.
Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?
Speaker 2: I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that
Speaker 2: every human being should do the right thing. And that's why,
Speaker 2: even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people,
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out
Speaker 2: of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that
Speaker 2: I break my way out of my wife's death. I'm
Speaker 2: not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove
Speaker 2: my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Speaker 4: Our system.
Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a
Speaker 1: little ways, but it's still broken.
Speaker 2: I totally lost trust in humanity after what's happened to me.
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flamm that's me, and today I have an extraordinary
Speaker 1: person as my guest, a man named Rafael Madrigal. Raphael,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Good morning, and Raphael, you know
Speaker 1: I often say it, I'm going to say to you,
Speaker 1: I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're here because
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you. And
Speaker 1: as a member of as an American and as a human,
Speaker 1: I apologize to you on behalf of everyone because this
Speaker 1: this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever. Are you
Speaker 1: know better than anyone and I and I want to
Speaker 1: get into all those details because your story has so
Speaker 1: many things that we see again and again right. It
Speaker 1: has mistaken eye witness identification. It has an incompetent defense attorney.
Speaker 1: It has an air tight alibi that anybody in you know,
Speaker 1: any with any degree of sanity or education or knowledge
Speaker 1: of justice with nobody could have possibly convicted you based
Speaker 1: on those factors. But we're going to unravel all of
Speaker 1: that and find out how you got charged with first
Speaker 1: degree murder and how you got exonerated as we go along.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's go back, like at
Speaker 1: a time machine, to when you were a kid. Where
Speaker 1: where did you grow up in California?
Speaker 4: Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life? What?
Speaker 1: What can you paint a picture for us to the audience.
Speaker 1: What what was it like growing up?
Speaker 4: Actually it was a real more lifestyle. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 4: it was in a rough neighborhood, but I mean my
Speaker 4: early teen years, I mean it was just a bigger neighborhood.
Speaker 4: Everybody was going on and you know, trying to find themselves.
Speaker 4: But later on, if we started getting older, then yeah,
Speaker 4: things started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A
Speaker 4: lot of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting,
Speaker 4: maybe I started getting a little bit worse and worse
Speaker 4: and worse as time went along, you know. But as myself,
Speaker 4: I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated
Speaker 4: from high school, I got a job right after high school.
Speaker 4: College was informed me. I tried it for about a year,
Speaker 4: and I think, you know what college is going to
Speaker 4: for me? So you know, I decided, you know, I
Speaker 4: think I've read the work and being that I was
Speaker 4: already going to be a father at nineteen, then you know,
Speaker 4: I knew my responsibility and.
Speaker 1: That's and both of those things you just mentioned are
Speaker 1: important parts of your story. Right. The fact that you
Speaker 1: did become a father very young, and we know what
Speaker 1: this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that.
Speaker 1: But also the fact that you did start working very
Speaker 1: young is an important thing as your story goes. Was
Speaker 1: along because of the fact that in your alibi, what
Speaker 1: made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna
Speaker 1: say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were
Speaker 1: a highly skilled person who was the only person that
Speaker 1: could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no way you could have committed this
Speaker 1: crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy
Speaker 1: there that knew how to do what you were doing,
Speaker 1: and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So
Speaker 1: the whole operation was so But let's get into that
Speaker 1: by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean,
Speaker 1: this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: this was a this was a shooting. Can you can
Speaker 1: you explain the crime itself? Obviously weren't there, but you're
Speaker 1: super familiar with There was a guy named Aguilera right correct.
Speaker 4: The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended
Speaker 4: up seeing him when he came to the fighting court,
Speaker 4: But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman.
Speaker 4: You know. It wasn't drive by shooting. It was a
Speaker 4: game that was going on at the time. As you know,
Speaker 4: I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know,
Speaker 4: nowhere near it, and I was still put in a
Speaker 4: situation where I lost ten years of my life.
Speaker 1: Well, how did and and you were senced to twenty
Speaker 1: five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think
Speaker 1: of how that must have, you know, just devastated you.
Speaker 1: But how did your name come up in the first
Speaker 1: place when you so obviously weren't there and you could
Speaker 1: prove it. And who was it that first? I know
Speaker 1: there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they
Speaker 1: even come to bring your name up? Did you ever
Speaker 1: find out how that happened?
Speaker 4: Or it all started off with the picture that this
Speaker 4: Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took
Speaker 4: me when I was I had just turned sixteen years
Speaker 4: old at the time of the crime. I was twenty
Speaker 4: five already. So they used that picture to show the
Speaker 4: witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one
Speaker 4: of the witnesses bid me that I resemble the shooter.
Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael,
Speaker 1: you were sixteen when your picture was taken.
Speaker 4: Great?
Speaker 1: Was it even appropriate for that picture to still even
Speaker 1: be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed
Speaker 1: after you turn eighteen?
Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works.
Speaker 4: Is any type of law that prohabits them from using
Speaker 4: the almost a ten year old picture?
Speaker 1: And what was the original? Sorry? Interrupted, but why was
Speaker 1: your picture in the book in the first place? What?
Speaker 1: What were you picked up for when? And I don't
Speaker 1: judge anything because I know where you grew up, as
Speaker 1: a lot of people get picked up for a lot
Speaker 1: of things. They do the sweeps and everything else. And
Speaker 1: you know, we've had people talk about how they were
Speaker 1: almost tricked into having their pictures taken and put into
Speaker 1: the mug Shot book when they were just barely teenagers.
Speaker 1: And it's also sort of ridiculous to point out that
Speaker 1: you were they were using a nine year old can
Speaker 1: imagine how much your appearance changes from sixteen to twenty five.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so why was your picture in the book
Speaker 1: in the first place?
Speaker 4: A picture, Like I said, it was taken when I
Speaker 4: was sixteen, when they were in front of my house
Speaker 4: and ganged unit ended up swooping by and everybody that
Speaker 4: was there inside my house. They pulled us home out
Speaker 4: and they took pictures of us and they went on
Speaker 4: the way. Never did I imagine in my life that
Speaker 4: that picture was coming hunt me almost ten years later.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around
Speaker 1: in front of your own house and they took a
Speaker 1: picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside
Speaker 1: down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get
Speaker 1: into that too. That the fact is that we know
Speaker 1: that there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in
Speaker 1: most cases, they were using six pictures on that page
Speaker 1: in the Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research
Speaker 1: have now proven scientifically that the human mind, if you
Speaker 1: give it that many options, will go towards somebody that
Speaker 1: sort of resembles a little bit. They'll start, you'll start
Speaker 1: to make up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't
Speaker 1: real because you see all these different pictures. So by
Speaker 1: making the simple change of putting one picture per page,
Speaker 1: we know that the incidents of wrongful identifications will go
Speaker 1: down by around fifty percent. So that's the change that
Speaker 1: we're trying to get made all over the country and
Speaker 1: in any case. So so I mean, this is this
Speaker 1: is an unbelievable thing. So you're now far away, have
Speaker 1: no idea what's going on somewhere in a police station
Speaker 1: in these Los Angeles, these witnesses, one of them randomly
Speaker 1: picks your photo and then what happens.
Speaker 4: And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started
Speaker 4: from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took
Speaker 4: please and from there after the incidet I believe, they
Speaker 4: showed the pictures, the pictures to the nickup to the
Speaker 4: witnesses could tell me about that to the witnesses, And
Speaker 4: fifteen days later after the incident, that's when I got
Speaker 4: picked up. I got picked up bunch of light the twentieth.
Speaker 1: July to twenty so paint this picture for us place.
Speaker 1: So you're July the twenties, where were.
Speaker 4: You July of twenty I had just dropped off my
Speaker 4: wife at work. I was because she went a little
Speaker 4: bit earlier than I did. I dropped on us at work.
Speaker 4: I was heading back home to get ready myself. And
Speaker 4: when I was driving into I used to live in
Speaker 4: a culvi Sec at the time. When I was driving in,
Speaker 4: I noticed that there was a bunch of a shelf
Speaker 4: deputy patrol cars on the side of the street and
Speaker 4: they were all putting under gear. And uh, I see them.
Speaker 4: I said, Oh, they're going to give somebody a rude
Speaker 4: awakening right now. Little did I know they were going
Speaker 4: to my house.
Speaker 1: And you. I read an article about you in San
Speaker 1: Francisco magazine where you were talking about how you were literally,
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote you. You said, I was literally living
Speaker 1: in the American dream, and then I got everything pulled
Speaker 1: out from under my feet. You had two kids at
Speaker 1: this point, your wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right,
Speaker 1: so life was looking pretty pretty damn good.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just
Speaker 4: thirty many years that we had boughtle in a house.
Speaker 4: So I mean, I mean, therefore we were striving for it.
Speaker 4: The fire own the house and we were tired of
Speaker 4: paint where so I mean we put we put our
Speaker 4: nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for
Speaker 4: we eased to move. But literally we know that, I
Speaker 4: mean this nightmare was going to start at night the
Speaker 4: twenty year.
Speaker 1: So you had two boys six and three and a
Speaker 1: little girl on the way and then you get picked
Speaker 1: up taken in for questioning. I assume, right, and explain
Speaker 1: explain that process.
Speaker 4: Well, that's the funny point is when I when I
Speaker 4: see that take the sales the troll corse in the
Speaker 4: Cola sat. I came to the stop sign and they
Speaker 4: had a picture of me, a blown up picture that
Speaker 4: they were going to my house with. So when I
Speaker 4: got to the stop sign, one of the deputies that
Speaker 4: at the picture. It happened to me. He had the
Speaker 4: piers looking at the picture at the time when I
Speaker 4: turned on and I looked at him, relacktizer to each other,
Speaker 4: and he drew his weapon on me and he yelled
Speaker 4: at me time to get off of my map. So yeah,
Speaker 4: sure enough, they got me off the van and they
Speaker 4: said the first one telling me all they need to
Speaker 4: talk to you down the station. So I tell them
Speaker 4: all of this here because they need to talk to me,
Speaker 4: and he said, you know what, they'll explain to a
Speaker 4: little bit more. Well, from there, they took me to
Speaker 4: the station. They put me in a van outside of
Speaker 4: the station and they left me there for it and
Speaker 4: I say him, good four hours. For what reason, I'm
Speaker 4: not sure, but I was here that for four hours.
Speaker 4: Followers lady put me inside the Holy Pera and I
Speaker 4: ask again, who need to talk to me? What do
Speaker 4: we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh,
Speaker 4: you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you.
Speaker 4: That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh.
Speaker 4: Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next
Speaker 4: to me when the detective involved in my case, can's
Speaker 4: talk to them? And I asked them, Hey, who's going
Speaker 4: to talk to me? And he says, you know what,
Speaker 4: wait to turn. I'll talk to you when that time.
Speaker 4: So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're not
Speaker 4: gonna talk to me now. Let me know. I'm going
Speaker 4: to bail out because I got to go to work.
Speaker 4: And his words to me where, you know what, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're
Speaker 4: gonna need it.
Speaker 1: Who said that to you?
Speaker 4: One of the need to take you in my case,
Speaker 4: now you're there.
Speaker 1: First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole
Speaker 1: idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not
Speaker 1: knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in
Speaker 1: and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come
Speaker 1: and talk to you and they tell you you're being
Speaker 1: charged with first degree murder.
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me.
Speaker 4: It was into my arrangement because I got to rest
Speaker 4: them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning.
Speaker 4: The following week. When I went into my arrangement that
Speaker 4: seemed to take they came to talk to me and
Speaker 4: he asked me, but my co defendant, and he asked me,
Speaker 4: when was the last thing you see him?
Speaker 1: Right? And this is an important point because the co
Speaker 1: defendant ultimately testifies that you were not involved. Right.
Speaker 4: No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was
Speaker 4: that there was a TEMP recording from the county jail.
Speaker 4: Because me and me and my co defendant, I was
Speaker 4: first enough to tell me who did this? I know
Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was
Speaker 4: with you, and he just got like very upset because
Speaker 4: I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what,
Speaker 4: I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do
Speaker 4: with this. So me and him got into a real
Speaker 4: big argument and we ended up being into a fight.
Speaker 4: Two days later, his girlfriend came to visit him in
Speaker 4: the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him,
Speaker 4: he had a black guy and his girlfriend started a question,
Speaker 4: what's going on with you? What's going on with you?
Speaker 4: And said jail. So he told us, you know what,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell you. The children's that's going on. You
Speaker 4: know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's
Speaker 4: asking around who was involved. And I told him the
Speaker 4: spell of his business and he needs to keep this
Speaker 4: his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else
Speaker 4: asking about this crime.
Speaker 1: And that was that was that was said.
Speaker 4: That yes, that was all. And originally when the tape
Speaker 4: recording came to life, they had told my my my
Speaker 4: attorney that it was me in the in the tamp
Speaker 4: recording confessing to the crime. So, uh, right before travel,
Speaker 4: he said, we got a tape recording was this confession
Speaker 4: to the crime. We didn't use it. So when my
Speaker 4: attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look at
Speaker 4: Andrew's names. I understand. I said, look at from the
Speaker 4: day that I hired you. I told you I had
Speaker 4: nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change
Speaker 4: up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that
Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay,
Speaker 4: you know what, We're going to ask for an extension,
Speaker 4: and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll
Speaker 4: come back in a month. So moth later we come back,
Speaker 4: and I asked him what happened to the recordings? I
Speaker 4: don't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing that
Speaker 4: can help you, and there's nothing in there that could
Speaker 4: hurt you.
Speaker 1: None of that makes any sense. So first of all,
Speaker 1: let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you
Speaker 1: and were you locked up this whole time?
Speaker 4: Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally,
Speaker 4: when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at
Speaker 4: thirty Kusand when I went to my arrangement, they raised
Speaker 4: my bill from thirty kundred dollars.
Speaker 1: To two million dollars two millions, So they didn't want
Speaker 1: you going anywhere. And and this attorney who we know,
Speaker 1: made a series of mistakes that are literally out age.
Speaker 1: This is the only word I can think of to
Speaker 1: explain the nature so many of them and so egregious
Speaker 1: that any law student would have been able to handle
Speaker 1: this case better than he did. Obviously, this was a
Speaker 1: quarter pointed attorney, I'm assuming.
Speaker 4: No, actually he was a private attorney.
Speaker 1: Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was
Speaker 1: he Do you have any theory as to what was
Speaker 1: wrong with him in terms of was why why was
Speaker 1: he so ill suited for this job? Like? What was
Speaker 1: there something going on in his personal life? Was there
Speaker 1: some did you ever find out?
Speaker 4: No? Actually, you know what, when when my family first
Speaker 4: hired him, I mean he talked a real good story
Speaker 4: to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to
Speaker 4: get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And
Speaker 4: I mean he just said everything that you'll be said.
Speaker 4: But as time was going by and postponement of post
Speaker 4: it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know,
Speaker 4: like he just literally gave it up on the case.
Speaker 4: Because he of the almost three years that I spent
Speaker 4: in the county jail fighting this case. One time he
Speaker 4: came within me. That was when when my family hired him.
Speaker 4: After that, never again did he come and see me,
Speaker 4: ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only
Speaker 4: see him and we would go to court.
Speaker 1: He came to see you one time in three years.
Speaker 1: And three years, Oh my god. You know, this is
Speaker 1: so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray
Speaker 1: Hinton called The Sun Does Shine. How I Found Life
Speaker 1: and Freedom on Death Throw by Anthony ray Hinton with
Speaker 1: Lara lev Harden, and in it he talks about Brian Stevenson,
Speaker 1: the legendary attorney who would visit him on death row
Speaker 1: over fifteen years, like incredible in a remote prison in Alabama.
Speaker 1: And here it is like one time in three years.
Speaker 1: I like, I'm you know, I'm so angry at this
Speaker 1: whole thing. It's like I can't process how that could
Speaker 1: even be. And then in the meantime he also made
Speaker 1: like mistakes that are unimaginable in terms of the idea
Speaker 1: that you had a tape recording. I'm just reflecting on
Speaker 1: this right, you had a tape recording with the actual
Speaker 1: perpetrator saying that you his co defendant wasn't there and
Speaker 1: and he he couldn't even work with that, Like he
Speaker 1: couldn't even and he's telling you that the tape recording
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it up at court,
Speaker 1: among other things. Right, because I'm not stopping there. I
Speaker 1: mean the idea that during the trial he was unable
Speaker 1: to he did well, he wasn't unable. He didn't call
Speaker 1: your coworker who would have testified and said that it
Speaker 1: was impossible for you to have committed this crime since,
Speaker 1: as I said earlier in the podcast, the whole you
Speaker 1: were the only guy there that could operate the machinery,
Speaker 1: and we know that the machinery was operating, and we
Speaker 1: know that you were you were there, you were clocked in,
Speaker 1: you were I mean, it's just mine how you know
Speaker 1: how this could have transpired the way it did and
Speaker 1: you lived it. So so I want to get to
Speaker 1: this so it finally comes to the trial. It took
Speaker 1: three years to get to trial.
Speaker 4: Yeah, about two and a half years, which.
Speaker 1: Is crazy in itself. And meanwhile, your kids are growing
Speaker 1: up without their father, your wife is in the situation
Speaker 1: of trying to figure out how to make ends meet,
Speaker 1: which I know that ultimately she had to move out
Speaker 1: of the house that your dream house, because I mean,
Speaker 1: who can raise three kids and work a job, and
Speaker 1: I mean it's you know, and in the meantime, she's
Speaker 1: left with the task of trying to explain to the kids.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're asking, when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just it's so I mean, it's so much. It's
Speaker 1: just so much. So you finally come to trial, and
Speaker 1: by the time you got to trial, now, I mean
Speaker 1: you've got to be almost a basket case by this.
Speaker 4: Point, I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber
Speaker 4: explain it. And just the worst part about it was
Speaker 4: that the doubt was there from the beginning year for
Speaker 4: the prosecution. Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys.
Speaker 4: It wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take
Speaker 4: you to trial. The first three came in. I mean
Speaker 4: the first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top
Speaker 4: gang prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He
Speaker 4: came and he told my attorney at the time, you
Speaker 4: know what I have an offer for him. My offer
Speaker 4: for him is twenty five with life. That's the only
Speaker 4: thing that will offer him, you know. A year later
Speaker 4: he leaves the case. They bring another prosecutor in from
Speaker 4: another city, and he comes in the same way. You
Speaker 4: know what. There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when
Speaker 4: he's upt maybe about ten months into the case, he says,
Speaker 4: you know what, I might have a deal for you.
Speaker 4: We'll see how that turns out. The following him, Monk,
Speaker 4: he was off the case. They bought another gentleman from
Speaker 4: the city of comped In. He was on the case
Speaker 4: for a month. He let the case go. They finally
Speaker 4: brought in This is Ramiors, Maria Ramiors, which is the
Speaker 4: one that finally took me to trial, and she's the
Speaker 4: one that finally convicted me, you know.
Speaker 1: And my team was, yeah, Raff, where you tried If
Speaker 1: it's okay if I call you Ralph. Were you tried
Speaker 1: together with all of ours or separately?
Speaker 4: No? Together?
Speaker 1: But he didn't take the stand, and you had the
Speaker 1: tape recording, But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody
Speaker 1: about this tape recording where he was admitting that you
Speaker 1: weren't there.
Speaker 4: Exactly. It's like the stame recording. The prosecution is the
Speaker 4: one that brought them to light, but at the end
Speaker 4: nobody used them. And when we when we got our
Speaker 4: appeal granted, and we came to the Federal Court hall
Speaker 4: and he asked mister Stein about the tape recordings. All
Speaker 4: he responded was, you know what, I think my secretary
Speaker 4: listened to them.
Speaker 1: Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all? Right?
Speaker 1: That that is what's so nuts to me is that
Speaker 1: there are that there are people in this less justice
Speaker 1: system I call it sometimes in justice system that are
Speaker 1: so cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it
Speaker 1: really was your life. I mean, twenty five to life
Speaker 1: is a life sentence, Let's face it. I mean there's
Speaker 1: when twenty five to life sentence. As a twenty five
Speaker 1: year old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest
Speaker 1: of your life behind bars. And this guy had his
Speaker 1: secretary listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: think about this for a second. So when you went
Speaker 1: to trial, by now you I mean, I'm assuming you
Speaker 1: had lost faith in your attorney, had did you consider
Speaker 1: it firing him? Hiring somebody else.
Speaker 4: Well, I really didn't a system of what you could
Speaker 4: and can do. It was my first time being in
Speaker 4: a position like this. Keep in mind, I have never
Speaker 4: been arrested soon, I have never been turned before. So
Speaker 4: I was lost. You know, my only guidance was my attorney.
Speaker 1: Right and you and you want to have you want
Speaker 1: to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming
Speaker 1: because you need to have faith in somebody or something,
Speaker 1: and he's your advocate, he's your champion. But when you
Speaker 1: went to trial, did you feel like, how can I
Speaker 1: say this? Did you feel like you were going to
Speaker 1: be exonerated? I mean, at this point the system had
Speaker 1: already you know, shown you it's its worst sides. So
Speaker 1: but but still you knew you were innocent. So what
Speaker 1: was your like going in to the court room finally
Speaker 1: after all these years or two and a half years,
Speaker 1: three years? Did you feel like you were going to
Speaker 1: be exonerated? Or you were you like, oh, you know
Speaker 1: they've got me and that's going to be it.
Speaker 4: No, No, I I like, honestly, I never did my
Speaker 4: faith in the truth. I was always under the impression
Speaker 4: of one second of the trial, I'm going to be
Speaker 4: able to prove my innocent. I'm going to prove it.
Speaker 4: And the trial massed the two days deliberations, there's a
Speaker 4: lot of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days,
Speaker 4: and they kept on and they kept on coming back.
Speaker 4: The jury kept on coming back to questioning my alibi.
Speaker 4: So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't
Speaker 4: the doubt just to the jury.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 4: It was there from the beginning, even with the prosecution.
Speaker 1: But here's another thing. As I was reading and rereading
Speaker 1: your story, I was thinking, you're sitting there next to
Speaker 1: your lawyer. He's not calling your alibi witness. Uh, from
Speaker 1: the I don't know what the guy's name was, from
Speaker 1: the factory or was it a factory or or what
Speaker 1: was the place that you were working at? What was
Speaker 1: it called?
Speaker 4: It was it was a manufacturing company.
Speaker 1: And what was the name of the guy who never
Speaker 1: was called that should have been called. That could have actually,
Speaker 1: you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi
Speaker 1: as being factful.
Speaker 4: That was my manager, Bob Howards.
Speaker 1: Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in
Speaker 1: the court room.
Speaker 4: Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding,
Speaker 4: by attorney told him that he was not going to
Speaker 4: be called testifying, but he did show up.
Speaker 1: Did you at any point say to your attorney, where
Speaker 1: is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you
Speaker 1: calling him to the stand?
Speaker 2: No, I mean I was.
Speaker 4: My head was just just so lost when I kept
Speaker 4: on just hearing on the prosecution kept on just making
Speaker 4: me look like this animal, you know. And even when
Speaker 4: the victim himself got up on the standing, they asked him,
Speaker 4: do you see the person who's shout who shot you
Speaker 4: here today in this court room? The gentleman said, the
Speaker 4: person who shot me, he's not here. He wasn't lying,
Speaker 4: he was not lying. He was saying the truth. But
Speaker 4: what would make that bad was that right after he
Speaker 4: got understand was that they put detected the move understand,
Speaker 4: and they asked him to take to the move. Why
Speaker 4: do you feel a monsieur Aguilla is saying that the
Speaker 4: person who shot him is not here? So his comments were, oh, well,
Speaker 4: he feels he doesn't want to be label to snitch,
Speaker 4: he doesn't want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't
Speaker 4: want any repercussions. But it was never that the gentleman
Speaker 4: was saying the truth. The person that shot him was
Speaker 4: not important.
Speaker 1: I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself
Speaker 1: inside the mind of the jury because even with such
Speaker 1: even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a
Speaker 1: strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested,
Speaker 1: even still with that alone, you would think that the
Speaker 1: jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know.
Speaker 1: And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally
Speaker 1: decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to
Speaker 1: this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So
Speaker 1: that moment must have been the worst moment of your life.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury
Speaker 1: came back in, did they look at you with your
Speaker 1: family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot? Was
Speaker 1: it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the picture
Speaker 1: for us of what that was like?
Speaker 4: And I remember it clearly that it was yesterday, It
Speaker 4: was almost days in for the jury, and I was
Speaker 4: under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They
Speaker 4: were gonna just bring us back on Monday. H the
Speaker 4: bailiff called called us in from the from the holding tank.
Speaker 4: Decision or what I think they came back with the
Speaker 4: verdict three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and
Speaker 4: I remember my pums were swating so bad, and I
Speaker 4: don't know if it was hot and narrow it is cold.
Speaker 4: I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury
Speaker 4: came back and just hearing those words, you know, when
Speaker 4: we find the defending guilty, It's like if I had
Speaker 4: the world on my shoulders at the time, the world
Speaker 4: just came crashing down on me.
Speaker 1: And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph.
Speaker 4: I mean it was just then turning along to fee
Speaker 4: my family and just everybody breaking down, trying because they
Speaker 4: knew the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family
Speaker 4: knew the truth. And them hearing the word's Guilty's like
Speaker 4: they just took the air out of their ownness.
Speaker 1: And I can't help thinking that the fact that it
Speaker 1: was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want
Speaker 1: to have to come back or be I don't know
Speaker 1: if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role
Speaker 1: inside that room of them saying you know what, Maybe
Speaker 1: there was one or two holdouts and they finally said,
Speaker 1: you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go
Speaker 1: to work whatever. And so for anybody who's listening, I
Speaker 1: always say, please, if you get called for jury duty,
Speaker 1: first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult,
Speaker 1: it's in a position on all of our life. Show up,
Speaker 1: serve on a jury. Pay attention, and remember that somebody
Speaker 1: like Raphael is hanging in the balance. His whole life
Speaker 1: is hanging in the balance. When you're sitting there, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's all of our duty to our fellow citizens,
Speaker 1: so our fellow human beings, that we give it, you know,
Speaker 1: all the attention that it deserves, and that we remember
Speaker 1: that these mistakes happen as often as they do, and
Speaker 1: you're living proof of it. So you're now convicted a
Speaker 1: sense to twenty five years to life. The worst thing
Speaker 1: that could possibly happen, you go to prison. I guess
Speaker 1: I want to get to the I want to get
Speaker 1: to the good part, right, the exoneration and what's happening now.
Speaker 1: But if you can tell us during those see you
Speaker 1: had been waiting almost three years for the trial, and
Speaker 1: you were in for another almost seven in a maximum
Speaker 1: security prison. And was that as bad as everyone is
Speaker 1: imagining it to be. Was there anything, Was there any
Speaker 1: bright spot in that whole time you were there? What
Speaker 1: was the best and the worst aspect of that entire
Speaker 1: miserable time of seven years? And then again this is
Speaker 1: in adding because you were in for almost ten but
Speaker 1: the seven years inside prison after you had been tried
Speaker 1: and convicted, you.
Speaker 4: Know, I could honestly say the best point of those
Speaker 4: of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which
Speaker 4: was the attorney who originally contacted California intos budget. Mister
Speaker 4: Motop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney,
Speaker 4: Laura Safer. And when Laura Seafer got my case originally
Speaker 4: after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest
Speaker 4: with me. She told me the way it was, the
Speaker 4: system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand where
Speaker 4: state appointed appeal attorneys, they don't pay us to do
Speaker 4: extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal
Speaker 4: three days. You know. But after going through your case,
Speaker 4: you're not supposed to be here. And I told him,
Speaker 4: you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.
Speaker 4: And she went as far as tell him, but you
Speaker 4: know what, You're gonna have to get a private attorney
Speaker 4: to be able to help you out, and she referred
Speaker 4: me to this gentleman, Eric moltip out of the Valley, California.
Speaker 4: And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a
Speaker 4: hold of my case, he contacted me and within a
Speaker 4: month a month and a half, I want to say,
Speaker 4: he wrote me a letter and explained to me. He goes, look,
Speaker 4: I read your case already. I don't know what you're
Speaker 4: doing in prison. You know, we need to get you home.
Speaker 4: And from there he got the bone rolling. He started investigating.
Speaker 4: And the first thing that I call him when he
Speaker 4: came to visit me, I told him, Eric, the only
Speaker 4: thing I need you to do is because I have
Speaker 4: never listened to the tape recordings. I asked him, please
Speaker 4: listen to this tape recording to something there. It always
Speaker 4: stood in the back of my mind. There has to
Speaker 4: be since there and he goes, okay, you know Where'm
Speaker 4: gonna listen to him? I kid you not. Maybe within
Speaker 4: a month he went back to the prisoners in again
Speaker 4: and he asked me, is that you and the tape recordings.
Speaker 4: I said, look, Eric, I haven't listened to them. I
Speaker 4: don't know what's in them. So he brought a copy
Speaker 4: of tape recordings and he played it. And as soon
Speaker 4: as the first work came out of the tape recording,
Speaker 4: I told him that's Francisco. I recognized his voice immediately.
Speaker 4: He says, are you sure? I said, look at them,
Speaker 4: one hundred percent sure. That's Francisco and Waters and the
Speaker 4: tape recordings. And that's what just got the ball rolling.
Speaker 4: We're able to admit the tape recordings back into adment
Speaker 4: because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the one that you
Speaker 4: have brought them out to light, but they were never used.
Speaker 4: So Eric goes, you know what, I got to get
Speaker 4: this back in there, and sure enough, that was one
Speaker 4: of the key things that the magistrate in the Federal
Speaker 4: appeals court asked, why were these tape recorders never used
Speaker 4: in his defense?
Speaker 1: A damn good question, and that was newly discovered evidence
Speaker 1: at that point as well, which is great. So okay,
Speaker 1: so let's fast forward. Now. What must have been maybe
Speaker 1: other than the of your kids or I don't know,
Speaker 1: but it must have been the happiest day of your life,
Speaker 1: which is the day that you were back in court.
Speaker 1: How did you get end up getting exonerated released? And
Speaker 1: must have been like this million pound weight has lifted
Speaker 1: off your shoulders now, so can you explain that right?
Speaker 4: Well, the flip side was that we first had a
Speaker 4: file of motion for THEVID injury hearing and we got
Speaker 4: that event hearing granted. So I was brought from prison
Speaker 4: back down to Orange County where the evidence your here
Speaker 4: was going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing,
Speaker 4: we were able to call my attorney who represented me,
Speaker 4: we put him on a stand, and we were able
Speaker 4: to bring mister Bob Howard and put him on the stand. So,
Speaker 4: I mean, all the pieces that were missing at the trial.
Speaker 4: We put him in front of the federal courthouse and
Speaker 4: that's what was able to bring the light. So once
Speaker 4: we got mister Stein under Stein on the stand and
Speaker 4: he was able to just literally deny everything that he
Speaker 4: did and also put mister how I was understanding him,
Speaker 4: admit you know what he was at work. I'm one
Speaker 4: hundred percent positive to use at work. There's no way
Speaker 4: he could have been gone. You know. That's what took
Speaker 4: turn bottom. This was in October. In June of two
Speaker 4: thousand and nine, my appeal was granted.
Speaker 1: I mean, how did you feel you were you freed
Speaker 1: from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show, right, the good part.
Speaker 4: Right. Well, the next day, all of that day, I
Speaker 4: just slep all night. Literally, I slipped not one hour
Speaker 4: of shod I The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're
Speaker 4: going to call me early in the morning. Then they're
Speaker 4: going to walk me out seven o'clock. He in eight o'clock.
Speaker 4: Uttil finally winning the Tiputys came to the to my
Speaker 4: cell and said, you know, we'll get your stuff ready.
Speaker 4: I got to take you down to our which is
Speaker 4: receiving a release. And he told me, oh, you're a
Speaker 4: Turney is supposed to be here to pick you up
Speaker 4: at eleven o'clock. But if he's not here, we have
Speaker 4: to that you go those best to court order. So
Speaker 4: eleven o'clock came and they walked me to the gate
Speaker 4: and mister Eric Moscoup was they're waiting for me. You know,
Speaker 4: it was it was an unexplainable relief happiness. I don't
Speaker 4: know if it was just a bunch of emotions going
Speaker 4: through me. You know, my dad just passed away eight
Speaker 4: months earlier, so it was it was just a bunch
Speaker 4: of things going through my mind. You know, how was
Speaker 4: I going to get back into society? What was I
Speaker 4: going to do? You know, it's just a million things
Speaker 4: going through your mind. I get home, man, there's a
Speaker 4: bunch of camera that's waiting for me, my family. I
Speaker 4: mean literally, it was the best day of my life.
Speaker 4: The only bad plub about it that my dad wasn't
Speaker 4: there waiting for me.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about something else that's really important
Speaker 1: in your case, and I know we don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of time left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction,
Speaker 1: reverse charges dropped, declared, actually innocent. Is that right?
Speaker 4: That's correct?
Speaker 1: And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this
Speaker 1: work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I
Speaker 1: talk about it all the time, no matter where I am,
Speaker 1: I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories
Speaker 1: about your case, about all these different cases that I know,
Speaker 1: because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody
Speaker 1: asks me is did he get did the person to
Speaker 1: man or woman the exonery? Did they get compensated? So
Speaker 1: the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get
Speaker 1: real wide, they say, did the guy get I hope
Speaker 1: they get and I have to tell them, well, it's
Speaker 1: not what you think. And you're living proof of that,
Speaker 1: right because you have gone through almost like another trial.
Speaker 1: It really it is another trial, just trying to get
Speaker 1: what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute,
Speaker 1: and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy.
Speaker 1: Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people
Speaker 1: think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry,
Speaker 1: we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let
Speaker 1: me give you a little way to get started here,
Speaker 1: you know, But that's not the way it is.
Speaker 4: It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's
Speaker 4: sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate
Speaker 4: ex generation passes was never there. I mean, the gates
Speaker 4: open for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no,
Speaker 4: like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing
Speaker 4: waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick
Speaker 4: you out into the world. You know, I've been out.
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday,
Speaker 4: October of sixth, it's been my nine year anniversary.
Speaker 1: That I've been home, happy, Birthday, Happy University.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Up until now, I haven't seen any type
Speaker 4: of help from the State of California. I've been to
Speaker 4: hearings after hearing, and every time we go with it's
Speaker 4: like on the trail because you have these people on
Speaker 4: the board who are more into denying you, not the compensation,
Speaker 4: but the truth, denying you. They keep on denying the truth,
Speaker 4: you know, for what reason, I don't know. I don't
Speaker 4: know what holds them back from saying, you know what,
Speaker 4: a mistake was made here, we have to fix it.
Speaker 4: But up until this date, nobody, nobody in the state
Speaker 4: of California have said, you know what, we've done, these
Speaker 4: people wrong, we have to fix it. And I'm not
Speaker 4: the only one. There's several individual Xanna Reeves that are
Speaker 4: here in California where I have been compensated. They're in
Speaker 4: the same situation that I'm in. They've been fighting for
Speaker 4: their composition for six, seven, eight, nineteen years.
Speaker 1: No I know, and I've read some of those stories
Speaker 1: and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up
Speaker 1: going back to prison just because they haven't been able
Speaker 1: to support themselves. Because they're facing the same thing that
Speaker 1: you're facing, which is they're coming out and having to
Speaker 1: tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even
Speaker 1: though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting
Speaker 1: hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know
Speaker 1: that they should have. I think as a society, we
Speaker 1: have to open our hearts and minds, and we have
Speaker 1: to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other
Speaker 1: people in positions of power that run big companies about
Speaker 1: this all the time. I think there's a lot more
Speaker 1: openness to this now, to this concept that we need
Speaker 1: to give people a second chance, innocent or guilty, but
Speaker 1: particularly if you're innocent, to get back on their feet.
Speaker 1: And yet people like Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right,
Speaker 1: who was convicted of armed robbery in ninety five cents
Speaker 1: to twenty five years to life and exonerated two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven, and then denied compensation and couldn't get a
Speaker 1: job and ultimately had PTSD and all these other things
Speaker 1: that ended up with a fifteen year cents for a
Speaker 1: vehicular manslaughter because he was high on drugs or whatever
Speaker 1: it was. I mean, it's a tragedy on top of
Speaker 1: a tragedy. So it's amazing this Stayady's willing to pay
Speaker 1: all this money to keep you locked up, but they're
Speaker 1: not willing to pay anything to help you when you
Speaker 1: get out. It's so strange. What do you and and Rob?
Speaker 1: It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting
Speaker 1: on that board their job should be to figure out
Speaker 1: how to get you this money and how to help
Speaker 1: you manage it once you do get it. That would
Speaker 1: be the job of that board. If I was running it,
Speaker 1: I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only
Speaker 1: are you going to get it, but you're going to
Speaker 1: know how to invest it. We're going to show you
Speaker 1: how to you know, I mean because a lot of
Speaker 1: people in your situation coming out and what you were
Speaker 1: actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and
Speaker 1: this is their first experience having a lump sum of money.
Speaker 1: So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy. You're
Speaker 1: literally having to prove your innocence again after a judge
Speaker 1: and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has decided
Speaker 1: you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What do
Speaker 1: you think it should be?
Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing off the top, it
Speaker 4: makes no sense to me for you to put a
Speaker 4: prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's
Speaker 4: the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know,
Speaker 4: a prosecutor to me will always be a prosecutor no
Speaker 4: matter how you look at it. You know, he's never
Speaker 4: going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you
Speaker 4: and they know for a fact you were innocent. This
Speaker 4: is a situation that happened in my in my, in
Speaker 4: my situation. You know, mister Mike Romos, who is no
Speaker 4: longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never
Speaker 4: once did he even take the time to say, you
Speaker 4: know what, I have an innocent individual here in suddenly,
Speaker 4: what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead,
Speaker 4: he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He
Speaker 4: questioned me so much in regards to what took place
Speaker 4: twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know what,
Speaker 4: we have an individual. That was the case with him.
Speaker 1: It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states
Speaker 1: that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and
Speaker 1: even then in some of those states it's only you
Speaker 1: have to have a DNA proof or you have to
Speaker 1: have this or that. It's not a streamline system like
Speaker 1: it should be. I think to me, once you're proven
Speaker 1: innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas,
Speaker 1: there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system.
Speaker 1: You get eighty thousand per year for every year you
Speaker 1: in you get an annuity, and sort of ironic that Texas,
Speaker 1: which most people would think would have one of the
Speaker 1: worst systems, actually has one of the best. I know
Speaker 1: why that is. It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was
Speaker 1: a state senator who passed a bill that really changed it,
Speaker 1: turned it upside down. And we need to do the
Speaker 1: same thing in California. And there are a lot of
Speaker 1: you should know, there are a lot of good people
Speaker 1: working on it, and I'm going to be helping to
Speaker 1: lead this charge to fix it for you and for
Speaker 1: everyone else like you, because it's absolutely it's disgusting in
Speaker 1: my opinion that you are now having to fight. And
Speaker 1: by the way, not only is it as you said,
Speaker 1: it's the opposite of what it should be because on
Speaker 1: top of everything else, you have to make time in
Speaker 1: your life, which you have enough obligations with three kids, work,
Speaker 1: struggling everything else, to go and appear in all these
Speaker 1: different hearings and everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just
Speaker 1: be a check in the mailbox for you with your
Speaker 1: name on it that says, hey, good luck, Sorry this
Speaker 1: happened to you, you know, looking forward to seeing you
Speaker 1: succeed moving forward. Hope this helped something like that, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. But man, it's really I think
Speaker 1: it's so important that you're here and talking about this
Speaker 1: because that problem has to get fixed, and it has
Speaker 1: to get fixed at the highest levels, right And I
Speaker 1: think I'm going to be I'm going to be keeping
Speaker 1: in touch with you, if it's all right, because I'm
Speaker 1: going to call on you maybe to have some meetings
Speaker 1: with some you know, people in positions of power who
Speaker 1: can who can make these changes, because I believe if
Speaker 1: if the people that make these decisions are made aware,
Speaker 1: which is why it's so important that you're here, they're
Speaker 1: going to want to fix this because it's it's just
Speaker 1: it just doesn't make any sense. But I just think
Speaker 1: people aren't really focused on it. So the more attention
Speaker 1: we can bring, the better it's going to be, obviously
Speaker 1: for you and everybody else. So before before we have
Speaker 1: to wrap up, I wanted to ask you one more question.
Speaker 1: There was actually two more questions. One question, how how
Speaker 1: is your How are your kids doing?
Speaker 4: My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My
Speaker 4: oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year,
Speaker 4: about a year and a half left in Long Beach
Speaker 4: State to complete his major. My second oldest, he just
Speaker 4: gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and
Speaker 4: one to chelsetate fulish and also so I mean family wise,
Speaker 4: I cannot complete one bit. You know, I thank god
Speaker 4: that I came out. That my wife done such a
Speaker 4: great job with them in those ten years. She you know,
Speaker 4: guided them in the right direction. And now these kids
Speaker 4: are open and they're they're leading a good life.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that that's really an amazing testament to them.
Speaker 1: And like you said to your wife, because to grow
Speaker 1: up in that situation without their dad and and to
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, take that adversity and turn
Speaker 1: it into we can call it triumph because it sounds
Speaker 1: like they're they're they're knocking it out of the park.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's
Speaker 1: also it's also a tribute to you. I mean, you
Speaker 1: obviously have had a tremendously positive influence on them, so
Speaker 1: you know, I wish I wish you and them all
Speaker 1: the best and everything that you deserve before we go,
Speaker 1: and I know you have to run, but I always
Speaker 1: like to end the show the same way, which is
Speaker 1: that I like to this is I think everyone's favorite
Speaker 1: part of the show. When I stopped talking, and I
Speaker 1: just first of all want to thank you again for
Speaker 1: being here taking time I'm out of your schedule to
Speaker 1: share your story with the audience here on WRON for conviction,
Speaker 1: and now I'm going to turn it over to you
Speaker 1: just for any last thoughts that you want to share
Speaker 1: about anything. So the microphone is yours, and thank you
Speaker 1: again for being here.
Speaker 4: Thank you well, I just want to take the time,
Speaker 4: more than anything to thank my family and my wife,
Speaker 4: my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer
Speaker 4: with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to
Speaker 4: him because he was one of the ones always in
Speaker 4: the front right with me fighting for this. I also
Speaker 4: want to thank Justin and all of the California Indusry Project.
Speaker 4: Eric Moltop. Eric Moltop was the key piece to exonerating me,
Speaker 4: to getting me home, you know, and lesson, but at
Speaker 4: least you know, to those prosecutors, and to take this
Speaker 4: out there. You know, if you're hearing me, you know,
Speaker 4: take the time to investigate your cases. Don't just look
Speaker 4: for a conviction. It's not right putting people in prison
Speaker 4: as if in that command, you're not only destroying their life,
Speaker 4: but you're destroying many lives behind their their kids, their families,
Speaker 4: I mean, their parents. It just takes a toll on
Speaker 4: society itself. You know, I was one of the lucky
Speaker 4: ones who it only took ten years to exonerate me.
Speaker 4: But there are gentlemen out there who were concentrated for
Speaker 4: twenty thirty years. Thirty years later, there's not a life
Speaker 4: out of here for you. You know, everything has changed.
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a great way to wrap up.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've
Speaker 1: had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think,
Speaker 1: and he is a huge source of inspiration for me
Speaker 1: and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's
Speaker 1: marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency
Speaker 1: on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is
Speaker 1: just a great, great man. And I want to encourage
Speaker 1: everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California
Speaker 1: Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser,
Speaker 1: do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too
Speaker 1: many people in the same situation that Raphael was in
Speaker 1: and we need to go get them out. And uh
Speaker 1: and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and
Speaker 1: I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of
Speaker 1: good people who care about you and everyone else like
Speaker 1: you out there, so I know you got to get
Speaker 1: to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore.
Speaker 1: But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in
Speaker 1: California the next time. And uh and and all my
Speaker 1: best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to
Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me and
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocent'sproject dot org to learn how
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one