WEBVTT - #074 Jason Flom with Rafael Madrigal 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.400 I've never been in trouble in my life. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.040 I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:05.360 I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.920 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.680 I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.280 every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.200 even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.360 I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.080 of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.560 I break my way out of my wife's death. I'm 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.760 not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:50.120 my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.479 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.480 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.560 I totally lost trust in humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:24.640 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.280 Jason Flamm that's me, and today I have an extraordinary 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:33.320 person as my guest, a man named Rafael Madrigal. Raphael, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.240 welcome to the show. Good morning, and Raphael, you know 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.240 I often say it, I'm going to say to you, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.759 I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're here because 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:46.199 there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you. And 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.400 as a member of as an American and as a human, 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.840 I apologize to you on behalf of everyone because this 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:58.120 this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever. Are you 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.880 know better than anyone and I and I want to 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.680 get into all those details because your story has so 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.280 many things that we see again and again right. It 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.880 has mistaken eye witness identification. It has an incompetent defense attorney. 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:17.760 It has an air tight alibi that anybody in you know, 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.040 any with any degree of sanity or education or knowledge 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.880 of justice with nobody could have possibly convicted you based 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.120 on those factors. But we're going to unravel all of 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.119 that and find out how you got charged with first 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.040 degree murder and how you got exonerated as we go along. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.920 But before we do that, let's go back, like at 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.959 a time machine, to when you were a kid. Where 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:40.520 where did you grow up in California? 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.320 Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.840 So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life? What? 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.200 What can you paint a picture for us to the audience. 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:51.520 What what was it like growing up? 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:56.359 Actually it was a real more lifestyle. I mean, yeah, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.320 it was in a rough neighborhood, but I mean my 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.160 early teen years, I mean it was just a bigger neighborhood. 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.639 Everybody was going on and you know, trying to find themselves. 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.480 But later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:13.040 things started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.919 lot of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting, 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.680 maybe I started getting a little bit worse and worse 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.000 and worse as time went along, you know. But as myself, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:23.880 I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.360 from high school, I got a job right after high school. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.000 College was informed me. I tried it for about a year, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.000 and I think, you know what college is going to 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.840 for me? So you know, I decided, you know, I 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.160 think I've read the work and being that I was 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.760 already going to be a father at nineteen, then you know, 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:41.760 I knew my responsibility and. 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.560 That's and both of those things you just mentioned are 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.920 important parts of your story. Right. The fact that you 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.120 did become a father very young, and we know what 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.840 this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.760 But also the fact that you did start working very 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.200 young is an important thing as your story goes. Was 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.360 along because of the fact that in your alibi, what 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.160 made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.520 say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.280 a highly skilled person who was the only person that 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.599 could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that, 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:20.839 you know, there's no way you could have committed this 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.440 crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:26.279 there that knew how to do what you were doing, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.680 and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.360 the whole operation was so But let's get into that 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.840 by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:38.920 this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean, 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.000 this was a this was a shooting. Can you can 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.479 you explain the crime itself? Obviously weren't there, but you're 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.880 super familiar with There was a guy named Aguilera right correct. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.920 The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.000 up seeing him when he came to the fighting court, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.640 But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman. 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.919 You know. It wasn't drive by shooting. It was a 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.640 game that was going on at the time. As you know, 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.760 I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know, 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:10.320 nowhere near it, and I was still put in a 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.240 situation where I lost ten years of my life. 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.320 Well, how did and and you were senced to twenty 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.360 five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:24.279 of how that must have, you know, just devastated you. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.080 But how did your name come up in the first 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.320 place when you so obviously weren't there and you could 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.919 prove it. And who was it that first? I know 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.760 there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:37.800 even come to bring your name up? Did you ever 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:39.080 find out how that happened? 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.480 Or it all started off with the picture that this 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.880 Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.599 me when I was I had just turned sixteen years 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.599 old at the time of the crime. I was twenty 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.960 five already. So they used that picture to show the 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.920 witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.719 of the witnesses bid me that I resemble the shooter. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:03.960 Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait, 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.159 let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael, 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:08.800 you were sixteen when your picture was taken. 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:10.040 Great? 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:12.599 Was it even appropriate for that picture to still even 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.560 be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.400 after you turn eighteen? 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.240 I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works. 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.520 Is any type of law that prohabits them from using 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:24.920 the almost a ten year old picture? 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.520 And what was the original? Sorry? Interrupted, but why was 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.159 your picture in the book in the first place? What? 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.039 What were you picked up for when? And I don't 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.800 judge anything because I know where you grew up, as 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.320 a lot of people get picked up for a lot 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.480 of things. They do the sweeps and everything else. And 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.680 you know, we've had people talk about how they were 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.160 almost tricked into having their pictures taken and put into 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.120 the mug Shot book when they were just barely teenagers. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.400 And it's also sort of ridiculous to point out that 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.800 you were they were using a nine year old can 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.840 imagine how much your appearance changes from sixteen to twenty five. 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:58.920 But yeah, so why was your picture in the book 0:06:58.920 --> 0:06:59.520 in the first place? 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:01.719 A picture, Like I said, it was taken when I 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.480 was sixteen, when they were in front of my house 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:09.120 and ganged unit ended up swooping by and everybody that 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.520 was there inside my house. They pulled us home out 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.000 and they took pictures of us and they went on 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.440 the way. Never did I imagine in my life that 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.480 that picture was coming hunt me almost ten years later. 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.440 So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.520 in front of your own house and they took a 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.440 picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.000 down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.040 into that too. That the fact is that we know 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:39.560 that there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.320 the fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.200 most cases, they were using six pictures on that page 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.160 in the Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.560 have now proven scientifically that the human mind, if you 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.760 give it that many options, will go towards somebody that 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.560 sort of resembles a little bit. They'll start, you'll start 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:03.320 to make up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.920 real because you see all these different pictures. So by 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.480 making the simple change of putting one picture per page, 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.320 we know that the incidents of wrongful identifications will go 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.360 down by around fifty percent. So that's the change that 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.440 we're trying to get made all over the country and 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.880 in any case. So so I mean, this is this 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:28.120 is an unbelievable thing. So you're now far away, have 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.640 no idea what's going on somewhere in a police station 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.679 in these Los Angeles, these witnesses, one of them randomly 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.480 picks your photo and then what happens. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.439 And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.000 from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:48.760 please and from there after the incidet I believe, they 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.040 showed the pictures, the pictures to the nickup to the 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.640 witnesses could tell me about that to the witnesses, And 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.880 fifteen days later after the incident, that's when I got 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.400 picked up. I got picked up bunch of light the twentieth. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.000 July to twenty so paint this picture for us place. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:04.920 So you're July the twenties, where were. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.080 You July of twenty I had just dropped off my 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.560 wife at work. I was because she went a little 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.280 bit earlier than I did. I dropped on us at work. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.160 I was heading back home to get ready myself. And 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.280 when I was driving into I used to live in 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.280 a culvi Sec at the time. When I was driving in, 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.440 I noticed that there was a bunch of a shelf 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.240 deputy patrol cars on the side of the street and 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.200 they were all putting under gear. And uh, I see them. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:27.720 I said, Oh, they're going to give somebody a rude 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.719 awakening right now. Little did I know they were going 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:31.280 to my house. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.880 And you. I read an article about you in San 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:38.840 Francisco magazine where you were talking about how you were literally, 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:40.800 I'm going to quote you. You said, I was literally living 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.080 in the American dream, and then I got everything pulled 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.040 out from under my feet. You had two kids at 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.280 this point, your wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.520 so life was looking pretty pretty damn good. 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.680 Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.800 thirty many years that we had boughtle in a house. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.440 So I mean, I mean, therefore we were striving for it. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:03.760 The fire own the house and we were tired of 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.440 paint where so I mean we put we put our 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.120 nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.720 we eased to move. But literally we know that, I 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.599 mean this nightmare was going to start at night the 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:16.080 twenty year. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.839 So you had two boys six and three and a 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.120 little girl on the way and then you get picked 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.800 up taken in for questioning. I assume, right, and explain 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:27.280 explain that process. 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.839 Well, that's the funny point is when I when I 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.240 see that take the sales the troll corse in the 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.720 Cola sat. I came to the stop sign and they 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.520 had a picture of me, a blown up picture that 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.319 they were going to my house with. So when I 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.120 got to the stop sign, one of the deputies that 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.640 at the picture. It happened to me. He had the 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.880 piers looking at the picture at the time when I 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.120 turned on and I looked at him, relacktizer to each other, 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:52.320 and he drew his weapon on me and he yelled 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.319 at me time to get off of my map. So yeah, 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.160 sure enough, they got me off the van and they 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.880 said the first one telling me all they need to 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.480 talk to you down the station. So I tell them 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.360 all of this here because they need to talk to me, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:06.319 and he said, you know what, they'll explain to a 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.599 little bit more. Well, from there, they took me to 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.800 the station. They put me in a van outside of 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.800 the station and they left me there for it and 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.800 I say him, good four hours. For what reason, I'm 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.960 not sure, but I was here that for four hours. 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.000 Followers lady put me inside the Holy Pera and I 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.480 ask again, who need to talk to me? What do 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.520 we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:29.959 you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.040 That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.960 Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.000 to me when the detective involved in my case, can's 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.880 talk to them? And I asked them, Hey, who's going 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.439 to talk to me? And he says, you know what, 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.439 wait to turn. I'll talk to you when that time. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:48.800 So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're not 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:50.960 gonna talk to me now. Let me know. I'm going 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.600 to bail out because I got to go to work. 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:54.920 And his words to me where, you know what, I'm 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.160 gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:57.640 gonna need it. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:58.520 Who said that to you? 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.480 One of the need to take you in my case, 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:01.840 now you're there. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.120 First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.079 idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.719 knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No, 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:12.520 I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.719 and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:17.719 and talk to you and they tell you you're being 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:18.960 charged with first degree murder. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.439 Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me. 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:23.640 It was into my arrangement because I got to rest 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.920 them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.839 The following week. When I went into my arrangement that 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:31.360 seemed to take they came to talk to me and 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.800 he asked me, but my co defendant, and he asked me, 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:35.160 when was the last thing you see him? 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.400 Right? And this is an important point because the co 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.720 defendant ultimately testifies that you were not involved. Right. 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.439 No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.080 that there was a TEMP recording from the county jail. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.559 Because me and me and my co defendant, I was 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.160 first enough to tell me who did this? I know 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.079 I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.800 with you, and he just got like very upset because 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.199 I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what, 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.760 I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.360 with this. So me and him got into a real 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.320 big argument and we ended up being into a fight. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.920 Two days later, his girlfriend came to visit him in 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.800 the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.080 he had a black guy and his girlfriend started a question, 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.319 what's going on with you? What's going on with you? 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.760 And said jail. So he told us, you know what, 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:21.920 I'm gonna tell you. The children's that's going on. You 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.559 know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.079 asking around who was involved. And I told him the 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.319 spell of his business and he needs to keep this 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.480 his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:34.679 asking about this crime. 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.400 And that was that was that was said. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:43.080 That yes, that was all. And originally when the tape 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.839 recording came to life, they had told my my my 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.679 attorney that it was me in the in the tamp 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.200 recording confessing to the crime. So, uh, right before travel, 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.240 he said, we got a tape recording was this confession 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.079 to the crime. We didn't use it. So when my 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.480 attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look at 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.120 Andrew's names. I understand. I said, look at from the 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:05.480 day that I hired you. I told you I had 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.920 nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.439 up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.840 I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay, 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.800 you know what, We're going to ask for an extension, 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.160 and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.840 come back in a month. So moth later we come back, 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.040 and I asked him what happened to the recordings? I 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.080 don't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing that 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.040 can help you, and there's nothing in there that could 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:26.320 hurt you. 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.000 None of that makes any sense. So first of all, 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.920 let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:33.600 and were you locked up this whole time? 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.680 Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally, 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.360 when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.240 thirty Kusand when I went to my arrangement, they raised 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.000 my bill from thirty kundred dollars. 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.120 To two million dollars two millions, So they didn't want 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:53.160 you going anywhere. And and this attorney who we know, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:15:00.200 made a series of mistakes that are literally out age. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:01.680 This is the only word I can think of to 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:09.240 explain the nature so many of them and so egregious 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.320 that any law student would have been able to handle 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.080 this case better than he did. Obviously, this was a 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:15.960 quarter pointed attorney, I'm assuming. 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:18.320 No, actually he was a private attorney. 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:24.480 Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.920 he Do you have any theory as to what was 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.080 wrong with him in terms of was why why was 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.880 he so ill suited for this job? Like? What was 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.960 there something going on in his personal life? Was there 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:39.680 some did you ever find out? 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.600 No? Actually, you know what, when when my family first 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.000 hired him, I mean he talked a real good story 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:48.440 to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.560 get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.000 I mean he just said everything that you'll be said. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.520 But as time was going by and postponement of post 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.440 it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know, 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.800 like he just literally gave it up on the case. 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.640 Because he of the almost three years that I spent 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.880 in the county jail fighting this case. One time he 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.200 came within me. That was when when my family hired him. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.440 After that, never again did he come and see me, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.480 ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:20.640 see him and we would go to court. 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.200 He came to see you one time in three years. 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.800 And three years, Oh my god. You know, this is 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.680 so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:30.840 You know. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.840 I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.760 Hinton called The Sun Does Shine. How I Found Life 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.960 and Freedom on Death Throw by Anthony ray Hinton with 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.880 Lara lev Harden, and in it he talks about Brian Stevenson, 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.160 the legendary attorney who would visit him on death row 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:50.000 over fifteen years, like incredible in a remote prison in Alabama. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.920 And here it is like one time in three years. 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.720 I like, I'm you know, I'm so angry at this 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.280 whole thing. It's like I can't process how that could 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.480 even be. And then in the meantime he also made 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.720 like mistakes that are unimaginable in terms of the idea 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.720 that you had a tape recording. I'm just reflecting on 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.000 this right, you had a tape recording with the actual 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:18.960 perpetrator saying that you his co defendant wasn't there and 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.600 and he he couldn't even work with that, Like he 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.359 couldn't even and he's telling you that the tape recording 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.400 doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it up at court, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.000 among other things. Right, because I'm not stopping there. I 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.560 mean the idea that during the trial he was unable 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.920 to he did well, he wasn't unable. He didn't call 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.920 your coworker who would have testified and said that it 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.600 was impossible for you to have committed this crime since, 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.119 as I said earlier in the podcast, the whole you 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.280 were the only guy there that could operate the machinery, 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.240 and we know that the machinery was operating, and we 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.000 know that you were you were there, you were clocked in, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:02.200 you were I mean, it's just mine how you know 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.840 how this could have transpired the way it did and 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:21.960 you lived it. So so I want to get to 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.120 this so it finally comes to the trial. It took 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:25.240 three years to get to trial. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.840 Yeah, about two and a half years, which. 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:34.200 Is crazy in itself. And meanwhile, your kids are growing 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.120 up without their father, your wife is in the situation 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:38.800 of trying to figure out how to make ends meet, 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.240 which I know that ultimately she had to move out 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.239 of the house that your dream house, because I mean, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.200 who can raise three kids and work a job, and 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.360 I mean it's you know, and in the meantime, she's 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.440 left with the task of trying to explain to the kids. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.520 I'm sure they're asking, when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.800 it's just it's so I mean, it's so much. It's 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.560 just so much. So you finally come to trial, and 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.240 by the time you got to trial, now, I mean 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.800 you've got to be almost a basket case by this. 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:13.200 Point, I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.720 explain it. And just the worst part about it was 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.680 that the doubt was there from the beginning year for 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.320 the prosecution. Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.159 It wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.639 you to trial. The first three came in. I mean 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.600 the first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.080 gang prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.200 came and he told my attorney at the time, you 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.640 know what I have an offer for him. My offer 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:45.880 for him is twenty five with life. That's the only 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.920 thing that will offer him, you know. A year later 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.640