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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast, and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and artificial intelligence creation. Senator Katie Britt

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Speaker 1: has proposed a database of pregnant people. We're not going

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Speaker 1: to regulate guns, but we are going to regulate uteruses.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post. Caroline Kitchener, who is a dogged reporter on

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Speaker 1: the abortion beat, stops by to talk to us about

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Speaker 1: what post row America looks like. Ben, we will talk

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Speaker 1: to Democracy Dockets Mark Elias about the GOP's effort to

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Speaker 1: stop counting votes before all of them are counted and

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Speaker 1: also after. It's amazing stuff. But first we have the

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Speaker 1: host of the Enemy's List, the one, the Only, Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Rick Wilson, Hello, Molly John Fast. I'm joining you from

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Speaker 2: your fair city today as we record this.

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Speaker 1: And that's right, Rick is in New York, so let's

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Speaker 1: talk about But of course we're not in the same

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Speaker 1: room because where would we be, right.

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Speaker 2: Why would that even be possible?

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Speaker 1: So last night Trump gave a speech bafflingly in New

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Speaker 1: Jersey Wildwood, New Jersey, which.

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Speaker 2: You know he's swinging state New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: I was puzzling through this and I was told by

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Speaker 1: someone pretty smart that it is actually the Philly media

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Speaker 1: market Wildwood. Yes, so he's trying to get local Philly,

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Speaker 1: I think press.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: What struck me about this was it was out at

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Speaker 1: the beach and there were a lot of people, like

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Speaker 1: a lot, maybe not four hundred thousand like they said

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Speaker 1: or whatever crazy made up number they did, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. And I thought, oh, wow, this is

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Speaker 1: probably not so good for Joe Biden. But then those

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Speaker 1: people started leaving in droves. And by the time he

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Speaker 1: was done, I saw a photograph from a reporter at

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Speaker 1: USA Today or video that really looked just like there

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Speaker 1: were very few people laughed. So talk to me about that.

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Speaker 2: I think you have. As always, the illusion of Trump's

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Speaker 2: rallies has some been something that has trick reporters since

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Speaker 2: way back in twenty fifteen. And are there places in

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Speaker 2: the country where a lot of yeah, who's want to

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Speaker 2: get together and go see Donald Trump. And these people

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Speaker 2: are like the Juggaloos, only with red hats. They are

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Speaker 2: not coming to this thing because you know that they

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Speaker 2: want to have political Enlightenment. They're coming because there's no

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Speaker 2: monster truck rally. Though I know I'm sounding like a

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Speaker 2: really dickish elitist right now, but you may have met

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Speaker 2: me by now and know that I have, in fact,

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Speaker 2: in dickish elitis when it comes to certain things. But

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Speaker 2: the thing, Molly is I think the rally was so

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Speaker 2: bizarre of Trump once again, like yes, we did a

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Speaker 2: great thing with Arbertrinity Row and we're not done, and

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Speaker 2: going on and on and on about it, about doctor

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Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter, the late great doctor Lector, I mean a

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Speaker 2: poll wick. I tried to test me once Leva with Saba.

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Speaker 2: Oh God, madness.

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Speaker 1: It was really interesting to me because the door is open.

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Speaker 1: People are mad at Biden for any number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: I'm not and you're not. We both really do.

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Speaker 2: Like rational adult human beings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we just don't think that president is going

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Speaker 1: to give us a Christmas list. But I do think

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Speaker 1: that the door is open to trump Ism. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is, Trump has never been an organized politician. So

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Speaker 1: like last night, he did all the things that if

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Speaker 1: you were a political strategist you would tell him not

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Speaker 1: to do. He bragged about overturning Row. He mused about

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Speaker 1: what a good person Hannibal Lecter was, the late great

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Speaker 1: you know, he just did a lot of stuff that

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Speaker 1: he sort of bragged about his unforced errors. And I

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Speaker 1: wondered if ultimately people just got bored and went home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't sit and watch I mean I think

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Speaker 2: one cannot, but maybe some people can't. You can't sit

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Speaker 2: and watch, you know, monkeys throw their feces all day long.

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Speaker 2: It's briefly amusing and then you run, you know, instead

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Speaker 2: of everybody lasts about it later. But the Trump Show

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Speaker 2: that goes on and on and on and three, and

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Speaker 2: it's like these Castro esque linked speeches that are just

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Speaker 2: this stream of consciousness rattling, you know, kooky, weird, whatever

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Speaker 2: it is. All of it just gets tired. After a while.

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Speaker 2: You just get you just get sort of worn down

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Speaker 2: by it. And I don't mean by people who just

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Speaker 2: people who are critics or antagonists and Trump, I mean everybody.

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Speaker 2: I mean people who like the guy eventually go Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's enough for one day. I can't do this.

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Speaker 1: So that's really my question when we look at this

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Speaker 1: from like again, we're six months out from this election.

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Speaker 1: So I was chastising a pundit for saying that he

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Speaker 1: was sure Joe Biden was going to be a one

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Speaker 1: term president. And I said to him, why do you

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Speaker 1: say that? And he said because the person asked me,

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Speaker 1: and I only say the truth. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: but you don't know the truth. I said, you just

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Speaker 1: know your.

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Speaker 2: Opinion, right, that's an opinion.

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Speaker 1: And I said, based on polls. I said, so you

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Speaker 1: don't actually know the truth. You just have an opinion

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Speaker 1: based on poles. And I don't necessarily think that's true.

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Speaker 1: But I also know enough to know that six months

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Speaker 1: from the election, none of us really know what's going

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Speaker 1: on because most of the country is not paying attention.

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Speaker 2: To use a phrase beaten to death over many generations,

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Speaker 2: opinions are like the human asshole. Everyone has one. But

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Speaker 2: the idea that none of Trump's infirmities, weirdnesses, that the meltdowns,

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Speaker 2: the craziness, the self led legal defense efforts are not

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Speaker 2: weighing on Americans are just wrong. There are a lot

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Speaker 2: of reporters who are incentivized, for a hundred different reasons,

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Speaker 2: to make it overse race, to make a competitive to drama, drama,

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Speaker 2: drama all day long, and God bless them. Okay, that's

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Speaker 2: their work, that's their livelihood. I get a totally and

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Speaker 2: a lot of them who are following along on this

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Speaker 2: stuff are very amused by Trump doing his trick again

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Speaker 2: on America, of Trump doing his act once again of

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Speaker 2: making the press incapable of covering him. And right now

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Speaker 2: they are, they're once again showing us they're incapable of

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Speaker 2: covering Donald Trump. They don't know what to do. They

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Speaker 2: they do not know what to do with this guy.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sorry. I feel bad for them professionally, and

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Speaker 2: I feel bad for the country because too many people

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Speaker 2: right now still believe that Donald Trump does not obey

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Speaker 2: any political laws of physics. One other things that I

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Speaker 2: want to make very clear, there's this idea out there

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Speaker 2: that Joe Biden is somehow completely helpless, snake fit and helpless.

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Speaker 2: He's running and his campaign is running a good campaign.

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Speaker 2: They are running a good campaign.

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Speaker 1: With a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: And that was my next point. With essentially unlimited resources

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Speaker 2: right now, that will start to add up over time.

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Speaker 2: I know it's not happening as fast as people want,

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Speaker 2: or as deeply and immediately st people want, but it

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Speaker 2: will happen. It is underway right now, and Trump is

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Speaker 2: getting you know, he's getting out spent one hundred to

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Speaker 2: one in a lot of these early states right now.

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Speaker 2: And that's it takes time to add up. It takes

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Speaker 2: time to add in, and you know, the economy to

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Speaker 2: use bubb a little long. People keep underestimating that, but

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Speaker 2: the economy keeps like stubbornly refusing to go into a recession.

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Speaker 2: For Donald Trump's.

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Speaker 1: Right, and also when we look at this inevitability of

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Speaker 1: trump Ism, which I think is largely based on anxiety

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Speaker 1: from twenty sixteen. Trump has lost every election since twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: He lost twenty eighteen, he lost twenty twenty, he lost

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, he lost twenty twenty three, he lost

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Speaker 1: the Virginia State House. And even you see like these

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Speaker 1: Republicans are now even trying to not run along with him,

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Speaker 1: like you have swing state senatorial candidate. It's saying they're

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Speaker 1: not going to lie about the twenty twenty election because

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Speaker 1: swing voters don't molly.

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Speaker 2: There is something that I think is really important to

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Speaker 2: keep in mind that many of our colleagues and friends

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Speaker 2: in the journalism world have I think I don't know

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Speaker 2: they've deliberately forgotten it, but it's less fun and as

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Speaker 2: dramatic the Republican Party. Although the Magam movement is utterly

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Speaker 2: dominant inside the Republican Party, the Republican Party is in

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Speaker 2: a state of profound, wretched, terrible collapse and crisis. The

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Speaker 2: normies are gone, the crazies are largely in charge. When

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Speaker 2: Mike Johnson is the bastion right now sanity in the

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Speaker 2: Republican Party. You don't operate in a sane universe. You know,

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Speaker 2: You've got a party tearing itself apart. And they have

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Speaker 2: lost seats again, as you point out, starting in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Nationally speaking, this is at the state House, State Senate,

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Speaker 2: gresh always you know, very they've lost around a thousand

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Speaker 2: elected offices since Trump got elected in twenty sixteen. Trump

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Speaker 2: single handedly did all the work the Republican Party did

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Speaker 2: between the year two thousand and the year twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 2: because the Republicans were making a lot of gains in

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Speaker 2: the states over those years. And now those things are

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Speaker 2: being swept away. And that counts things like local school

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Speaker 2: boards and all this stuff. And so the GOP is

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Speaker 2: at a profound crisis, and I know they want to

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Speaker 2: pretend that's not the case, and so oh were you

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Speaker 2: know we're going to win this or that. But right

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Speaker 2: now they are desperate and a lot of the ones

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Speaker 2: that McConnell has out there that he's filled in, these

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Speaker 2: billionaires and these rich guys, there's trapped because the Maugus

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Speaker 2: don't like them, and the only thing keeping them them

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Speaker 2: alive is that they're writing checks with many, many, many zeros.

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Speaker 1: Say you're a GOP donor, So I mean, are you

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Speaker 1: wouned back? This is something you actually know about because

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Speaker 1: you know GOP donors. You talk to GOP donors all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: I mean I do.

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Speaker 1: So we have Mitch McConnell trying desperately to raise money

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Speaker 1: because they are trying to pick up the Senate. You

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Speaker 1: have Mike Johnson really behind the eight ball, trying desperately

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Speaker 1: to raise money. You've Donald Trump trying desperately to raise money.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think their pitches to Republican donors

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Speaker 1: and do you think it's working well?

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Speaker 2: If you bifurcate the pitch among Johnson versus McConnell, they're

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Speaker 2: very different appeals.

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Speaker 1: So let's hear them.

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Speaker 2: Mitch mcconne was telling big Republican donors. I can still

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Speaker 2: save this. I can still be a firewall. We can

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Speaker 2: still prevent Trump if he's back in office from doing

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Speaker 2: the worst things.

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Speaker 1: Or do you think they're worried though, or do you

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Speaker 1: think they don't care about the worst things.

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Speaker 2: Here's the thing. Republican mega donors believe that Trump is

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Speaker 2: a disaster, an immediate threat to American democracy. He could

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Speaker 2: plunge the entire world into a billion years of nuclear

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Speaker 2: darkness and all that. But they will kill their own

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Speaker 2: children with a bloody, rusty butcher knife to get a

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Speaker 2: tax cut.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing that appeals to them more than that. So

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Speaker 2: McConnell's trying to give them the best of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get you your tax cuts, and I

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Speaker 2: will prevent Trump from plunging the world into nuclear darkness. Right,

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Speaker 2: and is adopting a little bit more of a message

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Speaker 2: to donors. I actually talked to a donor who Johnson

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Speaker 2: pitched recently and failed. But pitched him, and sadly I

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Speaker 2: failed when I pitched him too. But the guy's just stubborn.

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Speaker 2: But Johnson's argument was, if you let the low Democrats

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Speaker 2: take over, they'll destroy your company. I'm not doing this

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Speaker 2: for Trumpian reasons. I'm a free market, small government Republican. No,

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Speaker 2: not true.

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Speaker 1: What did the guys say when he said that?

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Speaker 2: He just like, I have trouble taking you seriously about that.

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Speaker 2: And then the guy brought up to me, he goes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: a guy with the poor An app on his phone.

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Speaker 2: I don't think.

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Speaker 1: So so right, small government?

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Speaker 2: You know, you saw the stories last week where trump

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Speaker 2: Is goes to the you know, the energy sector guys

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Speaker 2: and says, give me a billion dollars and I'll undo

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Speaker 2: every regulation. Joe Biden. Ever, that is some third world

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Speaker 2: cuptocracy right there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about that for a minute, because

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Speaker 1: I think that a lot of us were just horrified

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Speaker 1: because of the planet. But I always wonder or who

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Speaker 1: is that for? Like how many oil billionaires are there

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Speaker 1: who are affected directly by regulation like that? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is that ten people? Is that five people?

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Speaker 2: I won't say they're all billionaires, but in that energy

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Speaker 2: sector there are about sixty or seventy donors right in

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Speaker 2: a whole variety of corporate roles. It could be as

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Speaker 2: big as a chevron, but it could also be the

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Speaker 2: people who are in the infrastructure part of the oil

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Speaker 2: and gas industry. The pyramid is very broad of people,

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Speaker 2: the guys who build offshore rigs and helicopters to service

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Speaker 2: the option. There's a huge it's a gigantic industry.

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Speaker 1: But do you think it works. Do you think they

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Speaker 1: do that for him?

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Speaker 2: Listen, a billion dollars is a lot of money. The

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Speaker 2: problem with any gift to Trump of that scale, Okay,

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Speaker 2: a problem with that, and they all know it, is

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Speaker 2: that Trump is going to demand they go through a

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Speaker 2: certain pathway where he gets a skim right, And none

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Speaker 2: of these guys are in the business.

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Speaker 1: Of being stupid right with money, So it's going to

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Speaker 1: be hard for that.

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Speaker 2: So it's going to be difficult to do that. Now. Look,

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Speaker 2: will be oil and gas industry raised Trump one hundred

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Speaker 2: million dollars? Sure? I think they could do that without

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Speaker 2: breaking a sweat. Yeah, But I don't think they're going

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Speaker 2: to raise him a billion dollars, no matter how much

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Speaker 2: he asks for it.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting. He clearly is quite panicked.

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Speaker 2: Oh, no question, no doubt about it. He is nervous

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Speaker 2: that the world is fluid in a way that he's

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Speaker 2: not as quick and agile enough to keep up with

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Speaker 2: as he might have been in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: I think the guy we're seeing in court, the cranky,

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Speaker 2: you know, tired, exhausted, drawn, bitter, nasty, old man, I

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Speaker 2: think that's the real Trump. I think that he knows

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Speaker 2: that all of the posturing in the world about the

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Speaker 2: crooked judges and blah blah blah isn't true. He knows that.

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Speaker 2: I think he's starting a sense that there is a Again,

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Speaker 2: and I've said this one hundred times, I'll say it again.

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Speaker 2: I do not believe that Donald Trump is going to

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Speaker 2: have any of these trials meaningfully affect whether he goes

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Speaker 2: to prison before November. Would I like it, of course

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Speaker 2: it would. But I don't think he's happy. There's no

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Speaker 2: joy with Trump right now. And look he enjoyed twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: He also had to spend one hundred million dollars to

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Speaker 1: keep from going into trials, so like his legal fees.

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Speaker 1: I had an argument with someone about this because some

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Speaker 1: of his lawyers, Alena Habba is a disaster. But like

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Speaker 1: some of these lawyers are quite good. Now they have

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Speaker 1: a client who tells them what to do, and that's

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Speaker 1: not good.

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Speaker 2: Todd Blande is well regarded as a defense attorney. I

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Speaker 2: know Chris Kuyse, I was friends with Chris Kuyz years

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Speaker 2: and years ago.

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Speaker 1: And Susan Necklace. I mean, these are mo stupid people now.

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Speaker 1: Luckily for US an American democracy.

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Speaker 2: What lay life is left a terrible coin.

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Speaker 1: They have a terrible client who won't let them actually

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Speaker 1: do law stuff, which is the good news. But I

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Speaker 1: do think, I absolutely think that we are seeing these lawyers.

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Speaker 1: He's gonna need another I mean, will he need another

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Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars to keep kicking the can before

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Speaker 1: the election? I think so.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm absolutely certain that the burn rate of

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Speaker 2: Trump's legal herald will be the thing in the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, because Joe Biden pulls this thing off.

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Speaker 2: We're going to look back and go, you know what,

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Speaker 2: if Donald Trump had spent seventy million dollars in in

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Speaker 2: the early States or in the Keys wedding States early,

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Speaker 2: he might might have beaten Biden. But right now it's

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden and Biden's allies that are on the air

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Speaker 2: in places like Arizona and Wisconsin, in Michigan and Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: And while Trump is still able to raise that small

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Speaker 2: dollar money. The hesitation level among most people is increasing.

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Speaker 2: They're dropping off the big dollar guys. They're taking a

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Speaker 2: lot of beating and seduction at phone calls and Susie

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Speaker 2: Wilds holding their hands to get them to write those

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Speaker 2: million dollar checks. It's not like twenty six even now,

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Speaker 2: it's not like twenty sixteen. I think there's just such

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Speaker 2: a unscored amount of legal peril that has hurt him

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Speaker 2: in ways that I certainly can tell you reporters have

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Speaker 2: not calculated it fully and adequately. I don't think most

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Speaker 2: people in the political environment right now have correctly.

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Speaker 1: There's no president for like, your candidate is in criminal

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Speaker 1: trials at one hundred Center Street while the adult film

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Speaker 1: actress that he paid hush money to is testifying about

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Speaker 1: having almost non consensual sex with him.

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Speaker 2: Right I was writing something this morning when I was

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Speaker 2: on the plane coming up to New York House. I

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Speaker 2: was writing something about the bizarre nature of a world

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Speaker 2: where a former president is in court with the with

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Speaker 2: the adult film star who he threatened, abused, and continues

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Speaker 2: to abuse even after he's already been adjudicated as a

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Speaker 2: sexual assaulter with the aging care case and has been

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Speaker 2: forced to pay defamation for attacking her over and over again,

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Speaker 2: that we still live in a world where people don't

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Speaker 2: think about Trump as a form of political pornography enjoyed

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Speaker 2: by a few Americans, but that like tentacle porn or

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Speaker 2: something else, it's going to become an increasingly sort of

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Speaker 2: specialized taste. You can't look at this guy anymore. I go,

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Speaker 2: that's a regular guy. I can have a beer with

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Speaker 2: that guy. He's the normal He's the normal guy in

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Speaker 2: the room. I mean, Joe Biden may suffer from being

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Speaker 2: too much normal and too basic in the minds of

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Speaker 2: the press, not colorful enough or whatever, not young and

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Speaker 2: vibrant enough. People at the end of the day make

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Speaker 2: a lot of political decisions based on fear, and I

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Speaker 2: think Trump every day gives you more to fear and

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Speaker 2: more to load and more to be, more to be

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Speaker 2: disturbed about. And people who are disturbed by the behavior

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Speaker 2: of a Trump, I don't think there's any way where

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Speaker 2: they reverse their decision and go, you know what. I

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Speaker 2: know it's August now, and I've been thinking about vote

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Speaker 2: for Joe Biden, But suddenly Trump's going to be more

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Speaker 2: sane and cogent and not talking about imaginary serial killers

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Speaker 2: and not pretending he's a martyr on the same level

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Speaker 2: as Gandhi and Martin Luther King at Smith dell.

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: You are welcome.

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Speaker 1: Spring us here, and I bet you are trying to

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Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all

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Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

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Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com.

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Speaker 1: Caroline Kitchener is a national reporter doggedly covering abortion at

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Carolyne Kitchener.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You have this beat, which is abortion. It is in

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Speaker 1: post row America. Just every piece is just an incredible

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Speaker 1: shit show. So I want you first to talk to

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Speaker 1: us about Florida. Let's talk about Florida first and then

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Speaker 1: we'll get to I mean, every abortion story in this country,

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Speaker 1: of which in post or America there are now millions

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Speaker 1: you cover basically, But let's talk about Florida first, because Florida,

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Speaker 1: it just happened last week, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would love to talk about Florida. I think

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Speaker 3: that people are not really yet realizing how big of

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Speaker 3: an impact Florida is going to have on abortion access

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Speaker 3: through the entire country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so set this stage here.

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Speaker 3: I went last week. I was there for like twenty

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Speaker 3: four hours. I was there on the day before the

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Speaker 3: band took effect.

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Speaker 1: And this is a six week band enacted by DeSantis.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he find it. So it's a ban on most

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Speaker 3: abortions and it's going down. Florida had a fifteen week

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Speaker 3: ban in place, and so this replaces that now. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean so I was there on Tuesday, and it

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Speaker 3: was a wrenching day for these women because it was

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Speaker 3: the last day that they could provide abortions. But because

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Speaker 3: Florida also has a twenty four hour waiting period.

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Speaker 1: So what does that mean? A twenty four hour waiting.

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Speaker 3: Period, So that means that they have to come in

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Speaker 3: for their first appointment and have an ultrasound and a

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Speaker 3: consultation twenty four hours before they get the actual abortion.

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Speaker 3: So the tuesday that I was there, you were having

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Speaker 3: first people turn away because they came for their consultation

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Speaker 3: and they were told that they were farther than six

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Speaker 3: weeks along, because most people are by the time that

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Speaker 3: they get in, and they were turned away and well,

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Speaker 3: it was one of the most emotional settings that I

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Speaker 3: have been in this reporting maybe ever, because I was

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Speaker 3: just sitting there. I mean I sat there as these women,

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Speaker 3: one after the other, was turned away, and I saw them,

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Speaker 3: you know, I saw them learning this, learning that they

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Speaker 3: were eight weeks or ten weeks and that they couldn't

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Speaker 3: get an abortion, and just one after the other, they're

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Speaker 3: just sobbing, just breaking down because they knew, they knew

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Speaker 3: what this meant. The advocate that the clinic director who

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Speaker 3: was there, was trying to assure them, you know, there

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Speaker 3: are resources, there's funds, you can go out of state.

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Speaker 3: But it's like I think for a lot of these women,

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Speaker 3: like they have kids at home, they have like a

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Speaker 3: very little money, So they were being told to go

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Speaker 3: to d C because that's just how far away Florida is,

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Speaker 3: and that you might as well have been telling them

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Speaker 3: that they could go to the moon.

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Speaker 1: You talk about that in the story that one of

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Speaker 1: these women, they say, well, you can go to DC

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Speaker 1: and will help you pay, and the woman is like,

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Speaker 1: I have two kids and no mine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that opposition just felt like insane for her, Like

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Speaker 3: what I go to d C right now, Like I

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Speaker 3: have my life, I have my kids, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: it was really like she was being told that she

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Speaker 3: had to have a third child.

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Speaker 1: Right because she was basically being told she had to

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Speaker 1: have a third child that she can't afford. So explain

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Speaker 1: to me Florida. What I think about when I think

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Speaker 1: about Florida. That's interesting is this is a state with

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Speaker 1: real libertarian leanings, which for a long time was sort

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Speaker 1: of a place where you could safely get an abortion

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Speaker 1: in this house.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Florida has been a sort of like abortion haven for

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Speaker 3: lack of a better term, for a really long time

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Speaker 3: because of this provision in the state constitution in Florida,

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Speaker 3: this very very strong privaca clause in the Florida Constitution

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Speaker 3: that was passed by voters in the nineteen eighties that

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Speaker 3: has long long been interpreted to protect abortion rights. So well,

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Speaker 3: when you had all these other even you know, long

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Speaker 3: before the DABS decision, when you had all of these

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Speaker 3: other states in the South passing all of these restrictions,

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Speaker 3: Florida often resisted those restrictions because of this privacy clause

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Speaker 3: in the state constitution. What changed recently is you had

438
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 3: the State Supreme Court, which was totally remade by Ron Desanthos.

439
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 3: You had them say that, actually, no, this privacy provision

440
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 3: does not protect abortion rights, and therefore this six week

441
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 3: man that the legislature has passed can take effect.

442
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: So one of the things I'm hoping that we could

443
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: just talk about for one more minute is your DeSantis.

444
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: I think knew this was a bad this was a

445
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: bad law, or knew that it would be unpopular with

446
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: voters because he signed it into law, not in a

447
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: big ceremony, but actually in the middle of the ninety

448
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: Can you sort of talk about that, because my theory

449
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: of the case is that he did it because he

450
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: thought it would help his presidential run, because when he

451
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: signed it in it was still when he thought he

452
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: might have a shot.

453
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 3: Right. Well, it was very striking the contrast because I covered,

454
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: you know, one year before he signed six week Lack,

455
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 3: he signed in the fifteen week law. The contrast between

456
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: how he did each of those laws was like day

457
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 3: and night. Because the fifteen week law he stayed like

458
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 3: a massive event in the middle of the day. He

459
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: invited everybody. It was like a real dog and Plenty show.

460
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 3: And then like you said the other one he's signed

461
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: late at night. I think it was in his office.

462
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: It was not you know, there might have been like

463
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 3: one picture taken, but it was very quiet. And then

464
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 3: if I'm remembering right, I think it was like the

465
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: next day or the day after, he actually spoke at

466
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: Liberty University and he didn't talk about this, which, like

467
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 3: I thought, was like very striking because obviously that's like

468
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 3: the setting, right that is, like, if you're ever going

469
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 3: to talk about your like anti abortion achievement, that's going

470
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: to be the setting that you're going to do it in.

471
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: And so his like, his silence was very striking. And

472
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, I think, like, you know,

473
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: that theory that you black positive like certainly sounds plausible.

474
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: I don't.

475
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 3: I mean, I think he was certainly getting an enormous

476
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: amount of pressure from the base and from you know,

477
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: anti abortion activists in the state that have really helped

478
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 3: him in a lot of ways to do this. He's

479
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 3: never spoken about why.

480
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like it has political calculus written all

481
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: over it. So let's go to this Texas story you

482
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: wrote about. Power is such a central here and it

483
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: brings up the architect of SB eight, which was the

484
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: law that ultimately Republicans used to overturn Row. It's the

485
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: State Bill eight. I want you to do two seconds

486
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: on Jonathan Mitchell and then I want you to talk

487
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: about SBA.

488
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Jonathan Mitchell is I would say, the most

489
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: well known anti abortion attorney in the country. He is

490
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: known for kind of coming up with new and extremely

491
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 3: aggressive and like I mean, I would say creative, like

492
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 3: very like out of the box ways to crack down

493
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 3: on abortion. He has a real reputation for that and

494
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 3: he's trying a lot of different things and he has

495
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 3: been for several.

496
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: Years, including like a fugitive slave law basically that had

497
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: bounties on women who went and got abortion. So if

498
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: you were a taxi driver who drove a woman to

499
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: get an abortion, you could theoretically be charged.

500
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 3: Well, so with Senate Bill A, the way that this

501
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 3: law got around Roe v. Wait, it's all about private

502
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: civil enforcement. So basically what that means is that any

503
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: person in Texas can you know, file a lawsuit against

504
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: anyone that they spec might have helped somebody to get

505
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: that abortion. And that was a really I mean, we've

506
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 3: now seen several states sort of refashion that, but at

507
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: the time that was really really novel and nobody had

508
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 3: had really done anything like that before. I that was

509
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: Jonathan Mitchell's idea.

510
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: So crazy. Explained to us a little bit about what

511
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: it looks like with Texas now is woman wants to

512
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 1: get an abortion and the father of the fetus is

513
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: able to explain this to us.

514
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, anytime it's Texas, there's a lot of like weird

515
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: legal things. I just find that if they're reporting. But

516
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: there's something in Texas called the Rule two O two

517
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 3: petition that allows you to basically petition a court to

518
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: allow you to investigate before even a lawsuit is filed.

519
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: So when there's like if you say, you know, look,

520
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 3: I'm like suspecting that there's some illegal activity happening here,

521
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 3: and you know, I want to investigate, you can like

522
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: petition a court to allow you to do that. So

523
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 3: there's a big if no lawsuit filed. But basically what

524
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: has happened is this man, represented by Jonathan Mitchell, has

525
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: gone to a court and said, look, my former partner

526
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 3: got into abortion against my wishes and I want to

527
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: investigate that. Now, what is like particularly striking about this case?

528
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 3: I think is that it's very clear from the records

529
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 3: that she went out of state. She went to Colorado

530
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 3: where abortion is still legal, and there's nothing illegal about that.

531
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: Right, states rights. They pretend to care about states.

532
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 3: Right, there's nothing illegal about that. I mean, we have

533
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: seen anti abortion activists really go after this, like really

534
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: clearly wanting to stop this, but there's nothing illegal about that.

535
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 3: So that for a lot of people ring a lot

536
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: of alarm bells in a lot of ways.

537
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, explain to us a little bit about what is

538
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: there anything that Jonathan Mitchell can do or is it

539
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: just to sort of make people afraid?

540
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think the vast majority of certainly

541
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 3: of abortion rights activists see this as a chilling mechanism,

542
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 3: you know, something to do that people will hear about this,

543
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 3: you know, and then they will be afraid. But basically,

544
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 3: what he is arguing in this petition is that, you know,

545
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: even though like the woman herself could not be charged

546
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: or could not be you know, punished in any way,

547
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: the people who like aided her in getting out of

548
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: state could be. Now, abortion rights attorneys vehemently disagree with

549
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: that statement. They said, say that nobody involved could be charged,

550
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: but that's what he's arguing.

551
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: So crazy. So we have this Florida six week ban now,

552
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: and then Arizona has a pretty interesting situation. Can you

553
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: talk about.

554
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: That Arizona's law has now been repealed, but that doesn't

555
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: necessarily mean that it's not going to take effect. And

556
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 3: it's very confusing what's happening in this area. But the

557
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: leadest that I heard is that it cannot. The earliest

558
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: that it could take effect is mid to end of June.

559
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I think because Arizona has a democratic attorney general, like,

560
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 3: there's a lot in a democratic governor, there's a lot

561
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 3: that you know, obviously, those are extremely powerful leadership positions,

562
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: and they're sort of trying to do whatever they can

563
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: to stop this from taking effects. But we're sort of

564
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: in uncharted toiratory and nobody really knows what's going to happen.

565
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so we don't know, because I thought for sure

566
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: that the eighteen sixty law had to go into effect

567
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: at some point. Even though they were able to ultimately overturn.

568
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: It, they're still using conditional language like the governor and

569
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: the attorney general. I mean, my impression is that they're

570
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: still trying to figure out a way to stop this

571
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: from happening, because initially they had said the earliest was

572
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: June eighth, and now they're saying the leadst that I

573
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: that I saw on I do think that this is

574
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: a this is kind of evolving. But then the latest

575
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: that I saw was meddle to to end of June,

576
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: So I think we don't know for sure yet.

577
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: But right now the landscape is there's likely to be

578
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: a sixteen week ban, maybe worse, but something to that

579
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: effect in Arizona, which is also another state with real

580
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: libertarian leanings.

581
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: Talk to me about that there is a fifteen week ban.

582
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: That's the Doug Doocey right.

583
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: For over a year like that has been alot on

584
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: the land in Arizona. But you know, they like Florida,

585
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: are almost certainly going to have abortion on the ballot

586
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: in November. You know a lot of this is going

587
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: to come down to the election.

588
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: You are seeing these women and you're really seeing those firsthand.

589
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: I mean, so I read this like amazing report from

590
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: Lyft to Louisiana which talked about how Louisiana they're seeing

591
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: doctors unable or unwilling to treat pregnant women in the

592
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: first trimester because of the anxiety about miscarriage is an abortion?

593
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

594
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it's certainly happening. I thought that maybe by

595
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: now things like that would have sort of settled out

596
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 3: and you know, people would realize that, Like, you know,

597
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 3: cases are cases like this, as far as we know,

598
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: are not being filed against doctors. We have not seen

599
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: that against any sort of like medical emergency or anything

600
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 3: like that. But it really it hasn't. Like I mean,

601
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 3: people in emergency situations are still being turned away. It

602
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 3: seems like every day, and you know, I think that

603
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 3: just speaks to doctors have a lot to lose. Obviously,

604
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: they're you know, in most of these places, they're facing

605
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: jail time, they could lose their licenses, and that's a

606
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: lot paraska of a doctor, right And there are certainly

607
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: some that are willing to kind of put it on

608
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: the line like that, but many more I think that aren't.

609
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: So there's an Mdollar case right now at the Supreme Court.

610
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: MDALA is this emergency medicine federal statute which says you

611
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: can't leave people to die. Very American that we had

612
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: to pass that the Biden administration is doing I hope,

613
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: because you have these women who are being menevacked out

614
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: of the state because doctors are refusing to formal life

615
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: saving abortions on them. Are you seeing that? I feel

616
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: like you're on the ground, so you're and you're traveling

617
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: around and you're talking to people. Are you seeing that

618
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: other places? And also what do you think the downstream

619
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: effect of that is.

620
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: I'm definitely hearing about this in multiple different states, and

621
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: I would wager to guess that it's happening everywhere because

622
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: the laws are very similar and the fear is the same.

623
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: Something that hasn't been talked about as much is the

624
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: role that the hospitals have to play. I mean, doctors

625
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 3: that I'm talking to are extremely grateful when their hospitals

626
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: give them guidance about how to interpret these laws, because

627
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 3: what happens sometimes is that like some of these common

628
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: difficult conditions that women come in with, pregnancy complications that

629
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: women come in with, sometimes hospitals will say that one

630
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: is okay. You know, we have looked at the law

631
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: and we have sided together that that one is okay,

632
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: And that is so important for the doctor to hear.

633
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: But you have a lot more hospitals in my know

634
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: that I found in my reporting that they aren't say anything,

635
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: they're not giving any kind of guidance, So it's like

636
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: totally just the doctor out there on their own, you know,

637
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: encountering these emergency situations and having to figure out what

638
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: to do.

639
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: You don't feel like in these states with the bands,

640
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: the life of the mother protection is being focused on

641
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: or being respected. I mean, that's what it sounds like

642
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: from what you're hearing anecdotally.

643
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 3: They all phrase these exceptions in different ways. I would say,

644
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: I think the most common one that we hear is

645
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: medical emergency, like there is a there is an exception

646
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: for medical emergency. Now, the problem is that that's extremely vague,

647
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 3: Like any any doctor that you talk to will say like,

648
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: I don't know what medical emergency means, like, and I

649
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: don't want to risk, you know, acting in a situation

650
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: that then other people say, is not a medical emergency.

651
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: Right.

652
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: A lot of these conditions that they're really reckoning with

653
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: are you know, and not all of them. Some of

654
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: them are like, you know, there is an urgent situation

655
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: and still somebody is being turned away. But a lot

656
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 3: of these situations are like you know, well, if she's like,

657
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 3: if the pregnancy is allowed to continue, she's at a

658
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: high risk for sepsis, she's at a high risk for hemorrhaging,

659
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: but it's not like immediately she could die now. And

660
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: so those are the sort of situations. It's sort of

661
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: like gray area situations that doctors are reckoning with. And

662
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: sometimes I'll step in and say, you know, you can

663
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 3: treat them in that situation, but yeah, more often they don't.

664
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wow, thank you, thank you, thank you. I hope

665
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: you'll come back.

666
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on. I really love talking

667
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: to you.

668
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: Mark Elias is the founder of Democracy Docket. Welcome back

669
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 1: to Fast Politics.

670
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: Mark, thanks for having me again.

671
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: I'm such a fan of yours. But also, more importantly,

672
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: like I feel like this story because there's so much

673
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: other news. We're sort of sleepwalking through it and there's

674
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: so much I mean, I was listening to Laura Trump

675
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: on television the other day basically telling Republicans to practice

676
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: voter intimidation. So what is happening?

677
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm outside. I do you started there?

678
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: Because I don't want people to walk away thinking I

679
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 4: don't think you should follow the Trump trials because obviously

680
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 4: it's important that you follow the Trump trials, but there

681
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 4: is this crowding out of what is happening to democracy

682
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 4: that I fear people are going to wake up in

683
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 4: September October and be shocked at what is befollowing them.

684
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: The Republican Party is openly saying it wants to engage

685
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 4: in voter suppression and election subversion. You know, you have

686
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 4: the Laura Trump, the vice share of the Republican Party,

687
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 4: you know, using language that you know is at best

688
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: coded around violence. You also have her saying that they

689
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 4: believe they can get the R and C can get

690
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 4: partisan people touching ballots, remember that, and that kind of means.

691
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 4: And then you have I think her saying what I

692
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 4: think you were referring to, which is that they want

693
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 4: to stop you know, Donald Trump tweeted in twenty twenty

694
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 4: stop the count She basically said, they're going to litigate

695
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 4: to try to prevent ballots from being counted after election day.

696
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 4: And you know at the same time that by the way,

697
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 4: Republicans prevent states from counting ballots before collection day. They're

698
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 4: being pretty out in the open about what they are

699
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 4: planning to do. Donald Trump, you know, gave an interview

700
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 4: that said he won't necessarily abide by the outcome of

701
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: the election, and then Tim Scott, who is supposed to

702
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 4: be one of the moderates in the Senate, refuses say

703
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 4: he would. So I think we need to be careful

704
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 4: at not letting ourselves be distracted from all of the

705
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 4: really bad authoritarian commentary and the voter suppression activity that

706
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 4: is going on while the trials take place.

707
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: What's happening behind the scenes in the courts, Because you

708
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: are in these courts trying to preserve our right to democracy,

709
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,240
Speaker 1: So what's happening there?

710
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, as we sit here today, there are one

711
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 4: hundred and forty two separate lawsuits in various states of

712
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 4: the courts in thirty seven states. The majority of them,

713
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: about eighty of them, are pro democracy lawsuits, but it's

714
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 4: important to understaid the other sixty some odd are actually

715
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 4: brought by votes pressers and election deniers. These are lawsuits

716
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 4: to make it harder of an easier cheat in the

717
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four election. And the macro trend is that

718
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 4: we are seeing more and more of those lawsuits being

719
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 4: filed every day. The trend is towards the election deniers,

720
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 4: bringing more and more litigation, including the Republican National Committee

721
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 4: that is doing so. So that is kind of the

722
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: very macro trend. I would say underneath that, there are

723
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 4: a couple of notable things. The first is the Republicans

724
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 4: and their allies have brought three separate lawsuits around the country,

725
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 4: one in Arizona, one in Nevada, one in Minnesota for

726
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 4: the right to harass election officials. I want you to

727
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 4: take that yet, like you wake up one day and

728
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 4: you say, you know what law needs a challenge.

729
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: There's a law that says I cannot harass or intimidate

730
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: an election official. Let's challenge that law.

731
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

732
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: Wow, right, So what does that tell you, Molly about

733
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 4: what we're going to see this fall?

734
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: Right?

735
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 4: I mean, if they're willing to spend money on lawyers

736
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 4: to litigate to be able to harass election officials, one

737
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 4: can assume that harassing election officials is on their dance card.

738
00:37:58,760 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 2: When we get to a.

739
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: Too, do you think the courts will protect these people?

740
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 4: I mean no, I doubt they've already lost the case Nevada.

741
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 4: I believe they're going to lose the cases in Arizona

742
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 4: and Minnesota. But I also don't think that they're done

743
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 4: bringing that litigation elsewhere.

744
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: Okay, so this litigation is like kind of just trying

745
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: to move the goalposts, but not necessarily going to succeed.

746
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's trying to do two things.

747
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 4: And I think as we get closer to the election,

748
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 4: and hopefully this won't be the last time I talked

749
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 4: to you, I think we should keep this in mind

750
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 4: that there are goals that these that this litigation has.

751
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: One is to win the lawsuit. The second is to

752
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 4: shift the Overton window of what is.

753
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: Except that's always these great right So.

754
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 4: Even if they lose these lawsuits, they have sort of

755
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 4: put into play the idea that there may be there's

756
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 4: some first amount of right to harass election. I like

757
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 4: you and I will know they lost the case, but

758
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 4: like the gestalt that is the national sense of what's

759
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 4: going on in elections, they will have shifted what is

760
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 4: considered normal.

761
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like the trumpmmunity, right, he needs blanket immunity.

762
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: But they didn't really know. They knew they weren't going

763
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: to get blanket immunity. They just wanted to buy some

764
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: time and maybe get a little immunity.

765
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: That's absolutely right, and that's actually there's probably no better

766
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 4: case that illustrates the danger to democracy and frankly, in

767
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 4: my view, the failure of the courts to protect democracy

768
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 4: than that case.

769
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: Because here's the thing. After that argument, which you know,

770
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 2: everyone agreed, went off.

771
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 4: The rails, you know, with the justices at this point,

772
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 4: if they came back and said, there's not total immunity, right,

773
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 4: you can't kill your political opponents.

774
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: People would be like, oh, wow, well that this reword

775
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 2: did something reasonable, even if what they're doing is less

776
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: reasonable than we thought they should be doing at the beginning.

777
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: And and Molly, I know you comment a lot on

778
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: the you know, the trial in New York. I want

779
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: to be frankly somewhat critical of the judge there. I

780
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: can't imagine a criminal defendant being held in contend ten

781
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: times before a judge lets them in jail.

782
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 4: They have shifted. What the behavior is that Donald Trump?

783
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 4: Donald Trump has ten times now been contemptuous of the court.

784
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 4: Ten times he has violated a court order knowingly and intentionally,

785
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: and yet we're still in this like, well, let's give

786
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 4: him another future.

787
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 2: Let's give him another fut chance.

788
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: Trump benefits from law expectations, right, you know, at every

789
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: point they say, well, if we hold him accountable, then

790
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: da da da. You know, they've gamed it out, which

791
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: is not how any of us do criminal law, you know,

792
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: in this country. But I do think that Mershon in

793
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: his I think is mostly focused on, like, you know,

794
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: just trying to get this thing done. Now, that's not

795
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: a defense, but it's more of just that Trump had

796
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: so primed the pomp for special legal treatment that Mershon

797
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: has sort of found himself in this look.

798
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: I'm not singling him.

799
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 4: I would say the same thing about the trial judge

800
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 4: in Georgia who let a side issue sort of derail

801
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,439
Speaker 4: the trial. I honestly would say even the same thing

802
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 4: about the trial judge in DC who has had her

803
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 4: case put on hold. But she also frankly, if you

804
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 4: look back, he's just a criminal defendant, Like he's a

805
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 4: candidate who is a criminal defendant.

806
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: That's all. He is, nothing else than that.

807
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: Also, I would add that he decided to become a

808
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: candidate because he thought it would help him with these

809
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: criminal cases.

810
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: And that's a really good point, which.

811
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: I feel like is just been lost in the United

812
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: States of amnesia. I feel like there's a lot of

813
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: voter role purging stuff going on. That's really scary.

814
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

815
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 4: So I've talked before about voter mass voter challenges, which

816
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 4: is when private citizens tried to get large numbers of

817
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 4: people removed from the roles. When the government does it,

818
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: it is referred to as a purge. Right, So this

819
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 4: is what I. Purge is when the state or the

820
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 4: county decides to remove large numbers of people in violation

821
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: of the protections against them being disenfranchised. And what we

822
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 4: have right now is the Republican Party in some instances

823
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 4: their allies in many instances are suing states to force urges,

824
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 4: to force the state eight to remove voters, some of

825
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 4: whom are lawfully on the rolls, being from being able

826
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 4: to vote. And you know this is at the same

827
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 4: time or shortly after, many of those same states or

828
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 4: Republicans advocated those states leave ERIC, which is an interstate

829
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 4: compact to keep voter rolls clean. So I want everyone

830
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 4: to understand how what this two step meant. Step number one,

831
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 4: you have an agreement between states to share information to

832
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 4: make sure you don't have dead people and people who

833
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 4: have moved and other other people on your voter rolls

834
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 4: and that they're cleaned So step one is, if you're

835
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 4: a Republican, you get your state to leave that compact,

836
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 4: so now you have fewer ways to remove those people

837
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 4: who should be removed. You wait a few months, then

838
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 4: you file a lawsuit against those states saying, look at

839
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 4: all the people on your voter roles who shouldn't be

840
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 4: on the voter roles, we think you need to purge,

841
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 4: not just those voters, but other voters.

842
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: Right.

843
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 4: So it so the first serves as an excuse as

844
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 4: a reason why you now need to engage in a purge.

845
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 4: And yes, we are seeing an unprecedented level of voter

846
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: purge litigation. Mike Firm and I are involved in fighting

847
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 4: it back in a number of states, as are other people.

848
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 4: I don't think this will succeed, but again, what it does,

849
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 4: even if they lose Molly, they get to then say

850
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 4: on Fox News and in their other you know, Donald

851
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 4: Trump on the stop, look at these states. Their voter

852
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 4: rules are purge and these Obama judges or these liberal

853
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 4: judges or the Democrats are fighting to have illegal voters. Right,

854
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 4: they win either legally or they win by creating you know,

855
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 4: disinformation and rallying, you know, lying to their base.

856
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's this trumpy thing of you fight this

857
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: case in court and out of court. That's what it's about.

858
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what this election is going to look like.

859
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: One of the things that Republicans are furious about was

860
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: the expanded ballot access mail in voting. You know, it

861
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: was a once in a lifetime pandemic. It's not the

862
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: same setup. So certain things will go back to normal,

863
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: but will they be able to sort of take back

864
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: some of the more kind of like early voting. I mean,

865
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 1: how worried are you about that?

866
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: I'm very worried.

867
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 4: I'm worried about early voting, but I'm particularly worried about

868
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 4: vote by mail because that has become even more than

869
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 4: early voting. You know, pre pandemic, if you were looking

870
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 4: for the partisan split, it actually would have been early voting.

871
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 4: You know, a lot of Democrats did a lot of

872
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 4: emphasis on early voting souls to the polls among black voters,

873
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 4: for example. With the pandemic, you really saw a very

874
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 4: sharp partisan split around vote by mail. And yes, there'll

875
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 4: be less vote by mail in twenty twenty four, and

876
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 4: there wasn't twenty twenty, but it, you know, it is

877
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 4: still people actually started doing it and they found it

878
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 4: convene and they like it, and it does have a

879
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 4: it continues to have a strong partisan divide. So we

880
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 4: are continuing to see laws and litigation. Sometimes we're bringing

881
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 4: litigation over vote by mail. In fact, vote by mail

882
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 4: is the most litigated topic right now. In that one

883
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 4: hundred and forty two cases, there are more cases involving

884
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 4: vote by mail than any other. There's going to be

885
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 4: a case argued in the next few days in the

886
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 4: Wisconsin Supreme Court over whether dropboxes are legal. So my

887
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 4: firm has sued to restore dropboxes.

888
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: To be legal.

889
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 4: They were legal in twenty twenty, the conservative state courts

890
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 4: struck them down said no drop boxes in twenty twenty two.

891
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 4: We are now suing and I think will succeed in

892
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 4: there being dropboxes. But we're seeing this around a whole

893
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 4: range of issues involving vote by mail. Whether it is

894
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 4: the Republican Party is suing in Nevada to try to

895
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 4: throw out ballots that are casked in postmarked before election day,

896
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 4: but which come in say the day after election day. That'll,

897
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 4: by the way, to also disenfranchise our military servicemen and

898
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 4: women oversee, there's no question, Molly, that the fight over

899
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 4: vote by mail, the whole naked ballots, misdated ballots in

900
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 4: Pennsylvania that you remember from twenty twenty, All of those

901
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: things are coming roaring back into the forefront.

902
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 1: What is there any good news? Give us a little

903
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: bit of good news.

904
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, look, the good news is that they're not succeeding.

905
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 4: Here is the way I think your audience should think

906
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 4: about politics. Joe Biden's going to win the popular vote

907
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 4: in a landslide. Just pause for a moment and think

908
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 4: about that. Okay, it is simply not true when people

909
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 4: say that we are an equally divided country. Hillary Clinton

910
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 4: won the popular vote by three million votes. Joe Biden

911
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 4: won the popular vote last time by seven million votes.

912
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 4: If you put a gun to my head, I said,

913
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 4: Joe Biden wins the popular vote next time by nine

914
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 4: and a half million votes. But he will win the

915
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 4: popular vote by millions of votes. So what that means

916
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 4: is that the only way Republicans can win at this point,

917
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 4: because they're running out of runway to know count on

918
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 4: the electoral College. The only way they can win is

919
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 4: about making it harder to vote, easier to cheat.

920
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: And right now we are in.

921
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 4: The harder to vote phase, and we will get to

922
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 4: the easier to cheat phase as we did after twenty twenty,

923
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 4: you know, sometime in October November. But the good news

924
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 4: is they didn't succeed in twenty twenty and so far

925
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 4: they're not succeeding in twenty twenty four. So it's a

926
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 4: serious threat. It's something we need to take seriously. But

927
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 4: if you ask me, do I think they will succeed,

928
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 4: the answer is no, I don't think they'll succeed. What

929
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 4: makes me pessimistic, Molly, is not the outcome of the

930
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four election or these cases. What makes me

931
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 4: pessimistic is that we are now perpetually in a place

932
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 4: in which only one party can win or else our

933
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 4: democracy decip.

934
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: No, I know, that is the thing. I mean, there

935
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: are many things that keep me up at night, but

936
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: that is like top three, I mean, the only thing

937
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: that makes me feel a little better. And again, the

938
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: vibes right now are bad. The Acela cord Or vibes

939
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: are bad. But the one thing that I do think

940
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: could happen is Nikki Hlly is still getting tons of votes.

941
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: She's getting you know, she's got one hundred and thirty

942
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: thousand votes in the Republican primary that happened on Tuesday,

943
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: Mike Brown, So whatever state that is Indiana, Indiana. So like,

944
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: clearly never Trump is still never Trump.

945
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he is historically unpopular. Again, I come back

946
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 4: to how I think about our elections, which is more

947
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 4: people want the Democrats. The question is whether or not

948
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 4: between gerrymandering and the House, between the natural situation with

949
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 4: the Senate being divided by states by the electoral college,

950
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 4: will that be enough for Republicans to keep control. I

951
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 4: think that they don't think that that's enough. I think

952
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 4: that the Republicans don't think that's enough. I think Donald

953
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 4: Trump doesn't think that's enough, and that they need to

954
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 4: suppress voters and they need to cheat on the outcome.

955
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 4: So our job, my job as a lawyer, and you know,

956
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 4: all of our jobs as citizens, it's to be vigilant

957
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 4: and not let that happen. You know, make sure you know.

958
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 4: The thing I always say to the average folks is that, Molly,

959
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 4: you have an enormous town square. You are in any

960
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 4: given week, millions of people literally millions of people hear you,

961
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 4: they see you, or they'd read you like in some

962
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 4: form of fashion. They are influenced by what you're saying.

963
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean that for Molly Jones right now,

964
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 4: who is sitting in Scarsdale, New York, that she doesn't

965
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 4: also have a town square. Her town square may be different,

966
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 4: maybe the local coffee shop, or her workplace, or her Facebook.

967
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 4: And I think if we all project the importance of

968
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 4: protecting democracy and frankly voting for President Biden and Democrats

969
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 4: like I think the election will actually take care of itself.

970
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: Mark, I hope you'll come back. We have to keep

971
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: following this. It's like one of the many places where

972
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: being vigilant is so important.

973
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: Look, here's the thing, Molly, I am like the guy

974
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: who is like hanging outside your favorite coffee shop, just

975
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 2: waiting for you to say a lot. So you tell

976
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: me where you want to be dot dot and I

977
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: will be here. No moment, fucker requisi my moment of thuckery.

978
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: Molly John's fast. He has my favorite moment of fuckery.

979
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 2: As you know, and you and I've known each other

980
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: a long time now, As far back as twenty fifteen,

981
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 2: I would tell people, Nope, leave Baron out of it.

982
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: Kid's innocent. The kid is a kid. Let it be

983
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 2: a kid. They attacked my kids, but I said to people,

984
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 2: don't attack Baron Trump. Here's my moment of thuckery though.

985
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,959
Speaker 2: That article in the Daily Mail last week about Baron

986
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: Trump's political com out how he's a brilliant athlete like

987
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: his father and he's so strong like his political genius.

988
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 2: That was obviously Donald Trump going to the Daily Mail

989
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: and planting a story about his own teenage son entering politics,

990
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: and no one seems to have picked up on that.

991
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: This wasn't some random source. This was like, you know,

992
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 2: Donald Trump pulling a classic I'm gonna call Maggie at

993
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: three in the morning. That was so obvious that Donald

994
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: Trump was trying to make bear in the next inheritor,

995
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: And the fuckery of it was Trump doing the John

996
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: Baron routine and calling a news outlet and planning a story.

997
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: The second part that was amazing about the fuckery was

998
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 2: that Milagnia cock blocket in the worst way last week.

999
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: He says, no, then they'll not be going to a convention.

1000
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, he won't be Benjon.

1001
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 2: Two Slovakia with me to work on Far is Better lifestyle.

1002
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that wasn't amazing. He got the children jobs as delegates,

1003
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: and then Milania is like nope, and honestly, like, you know,

1004
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm no fan of Mlania's because I think she's just

1005
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: as trumpy as everybody else. But you know, good for her.

1006
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: Protecting your kids is always good. My moment of fuckery is,

1007
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,959
Speaker 1: ma is this Steve Bennon thing that is.

1008
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: So going to jail?

1009
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 1: So he is he like, is just stuck, right, He's

1010
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: basically going to jail. And so now he's going to

1011
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: try to have them here at en banc, which is

1012
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: not going to happen. And he's going to try to

1013
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: go up to the Supreme Court, which maybe, I mean, look,

1014
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: never bet against the brainworms of one Justice Alito and

1015
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: Justice Thomas. But if they're willing to put the whole

1016
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: organization in jeopardy to appeal to Steve benn and then,

1017
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: you know, respect, but I think Steve Bennon, it's going

1018
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: to jail.

1019
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: If they're willing to burn down a reputation that.

1020
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: Is allfctly good lifetime appointment.

1021
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: And they've already spread enough gas around the place and

1022
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: stacked up enough kindling around the place exactly. But if

1023
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: they think that bailing Steve Bannon out of a And basically,

1024
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Bannon did this for clicks and they

1025
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: know it. This is not some deeper legal question of

1026
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon being a bold resistor to some sort of

1027
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: certainly whatever. Just classic. But you know what, you only

1028
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: get one shirt in prison.

1029
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: Yes, Steve Mannon going to jail for four months? Are

1030
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: mentus four months? Who cares? Four months? Right before this election.

1031
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: He is one of the primary sources of trumpy propaganda. Yeah,

1032
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: and it's like the death of Rush Limbaugh.

1033
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: It's a bigger deal than people think. Yeah, that's right,

1034
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 2: it's not just trumpy propaganda. Yes, the war room, all

1035
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: this stuff is a lot. It feeds the MAGA base.

1036
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: But folks, you would be shocked how many mainstream reporters

1037
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 2: take Steve Bannon's bullshit without a single grain of.

1038
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: Salt, right to everybody in the world.

1039
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 2: And by the way, yeah, don't think Steve Bannon like

1040
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: he may mock the New York Times. He's on the

1041
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,439
Speaker 2: phone with reporters and the Times of Political the watch

1042
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 2: of us every single day for our wors working then,

1043
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 2: So don't anybody fool you about that.

1044
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: Yep, I think that's right.

1045
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, see you later.

1046
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1047
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1048
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1049
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1050
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.