WEBVTT - Tom Doak - Part 1 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.000 Hello, It's Andy Johnson from The Friday Egg. I want 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.840 to thank everybody for tuning into our podcast. Because of 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.920 Tom's gracious amount of time he gave us, We're gonna 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.640 split this podcast into two parts. We will be publishing 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:20.159 part two on Friday, so please you know, if you 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:24.760 enjoy our podcast, subscribe to us on iTunes and leave 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.720 us a review. It really helps us out and it's 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.440 it's greatly appreciated. Thanks and enjoy the podcast with Tom. 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.519 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.640 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.280 And when I find my ball in a brid Egg Friday, 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:45.080 the dreaded Friday Friday Frida Bride Egg Lie, I'm about 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:46.800 ready to run off the golf course. 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.160 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.319 Frida Egg podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome Tom Doak 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.920 onto the podcast. Tom is one of today's pre eminent 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.840 golf course architects, as well as an esteemed author of 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.520 books such as The Anatomy of a Golf Course, The 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.800 Life and Work of Alistair McKenzie, and of course, his 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:41.959 ultra popular Confidential Guides to golf courses. Welcome on Tom, 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:43.360 Thank you Andy. 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:44.360 Nice to talk to you. 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:49.080 Yeah, I'm excited to talk golf course architecture today, and 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.240 I think a great way to start would be to 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.320 give the listeners a little bit about your background and 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.640 how you got into golf course architecture. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.760 I certainly told this story a lot, so I'm probably 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.120 covering around a lot of your listeners have heard. But basically, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.400 I you know, I grew up playing a little public 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.720 course a mile from my house in Stanford, Connecticut. But 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:17.720 as a contrast to that, I saw some of the 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.240 best golf courses in America when I was a kid. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.680 My dad barely played golf, but he would go once 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:31.200 or twice a year on some corporate thing where he 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.200 played golf with the people he did business with on 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.680 the phone all year, and they went to the best 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.640 golf resorts in America. So I thought that Harbortown was 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:40.880 one of the very first courses I ever saw when 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.480 it was brand new and raided and golfed. I just 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.320 popped ten, and then Pinehurst not long after that, and 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.799 then Pebble Beach not long after that, and then unfortunately, 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.839 one of is one of the organizations that was part 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.400 of They did their convention at Pebble Beach and they 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.399 decided they really liked it, so they went back there 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.600 like every year when I was a teenager, so I 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.079 played it. I played a couple of each a bunch. 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.400 You know, long enough ago that the twilight rate was 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:09.400 forty bucks. 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:13.840 Things have changed a little bit since that day. 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.000 Huh, yes they have, and I don't you know, and 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.920 I haven't played it very much since they went up 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:19.880 to their current pride. 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.720 Yeah, yeah, that's uh So would you say, you know 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.520 a lot of people say they have a singular moment 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.800 or a golf course that you know, inspires them to 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.920 get even into, you know, being becoming a fan of 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.160 golf course architecture. Was there a singular moment or was 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.960 it more of a building over over your childhood years. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.280 I guess it was more of a building. I mean 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.160 the you know, the two different things that I always 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.840 go back to, or when when I was at Harbor 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:55.160 Town and you know, it was literally the third golf 0:03:55.160 --> 0:04:00.840 course I ever saw. It was the all writer Charles 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.200 Price had a place at Hilton Head and when mister 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.000 Dye was building the golf course, he spent a lot 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.920 of time with it. And then when the golf course opened, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.320 mister Price did a little booklet on the golf course, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.040 which is pretty much like a yardage book now, except 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.960 no yardages because nobody played by yardage is making seventies. 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.560 But you know, so there was a there was a 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.080 diagram of the hole and like three sentences on how 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:29.400 to play, like second hole. You know, there's only one 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.000 fairway bunker on the left, but you really need to 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.080 be close to the fairway bunker on the left if 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.440 you're trying for the green into because there's a tree 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.680 up there on the right you have to get pass. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.520 You know. It was just a really simple primer on 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.760 golf course architecture, really well explained, simple enough a ten 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.800 year old it could go, oh that's cool. So you know, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.159 that's the first thing that got me interested in architecture, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.800 that there was much more to it than just get 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:01.000 the ball, find it, hit it again. Yeah. And then 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.040 you know, I and pebble Bee in Cyprus Point when 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.880 I was a kid was huge. You know, I mean, 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.359 I don't feel really lucky to have gotten to go 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:18.320 to Cypress Point. Really early on. My dad's boss at Unilever, 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.800 when he retired, moved out there and became a member 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.680 of Cyper's Point. So I got to play it two 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.960 or three times when I was a teenager, and you know, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.359 it's a very emotional place, and you know, you know, 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.560 that's probably the place where I thought, you know, that 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.800 there that this was a great career and it would 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:43.440 be a great thing to do if I could figure 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.440 out how to do it. Although you know, when I 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.600 started at college, I didn't really know how to pursue it, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.520 and I had to, you know, I really had to 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.279 write letters to everybody in the golf business to ask, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:56.520 you know, what I should do and how to go 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:56.840 about it. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:03.159 So after cal you did you start writing? I know 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.720 you worked under Pete Dye for a number of years. 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.920 Did he give you the kind of first job right 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.359 out of college or was there somebody else in between that? 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.920 Uh No, I didn't work for anybody else. The first 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:18.920 job I had was working for mister d on a 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.400 construction throughout LONGKO when I was twenty. I've been writing 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.160 in letters for three years at that point, and I started. 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:27.920 I started on my eighteenth birthday. I was a freshman 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.880 of college, thinking, you know, engineering is not for me. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.760 I'm spending all my time reading golf books. I really 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.440 should see if I could pursue this. And Tete I 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:42.839 was one of the first people I wrote to, you know, 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.600 and I you know, I wrote to Petey and Jeff 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.440 Cornish and Being Demon and Ben Crenshaw and a ton 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.200 of people just ask him for help, and you know, 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.080 Pete was Pete got back to me when I was eighteen, 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.280 just a nice little note back, and you know, he 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.279 didn't really offer much advice at that point. I got 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.279 it from other people, but you know, but everybody else 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.040 in the off business said, you know, that's the guy 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:11.840 you should work for. You know, if you can figure 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.360 out how to get a construction crew working for him, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.480 that would be great. So I just kept writing the 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.080 letters for three years until finally, when I was a 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.160 junior in college, he called me, like the day I 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.280 was going on summer break and said, yeah, we kind 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.720 of cold losing some guys on our crew down here, 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.080 and you know, we could use a couple more people. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.400 Could you be here tomorrow. That was literally the first 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:35.000 time I talked to him, and I was working for 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:35.760 him the next day. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:42.400 What a What a cool story. So with mister Dye, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:48.920 who were some other influential people early in your career 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.840 outside of mister Dye that you know you would say 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.640 that really helped shape your kind of philosophies and your 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:57.760 in your career. 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:05.120 Oh god, there's a lot, you know. George Pepper, who 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.440 is the editor of Golf Magazine, is going to give 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.120 you a chance to start writing about golf. I wrote 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:11.880 him a letter to the editor when I was like 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:17.520 eighteen or nineteen eighteen because because because I remember it 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:22.800 was you know, it was actually about the top fifty 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.960 golf courses list that they had just published, and it 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.560 been a laundertique of it. And he got back to 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.000 me and said, well, you know, enough an eighteen year 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.640 olds in charge of this, but you can really write, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.439 and you know, we could use somebody who could write 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:42.760 some stuff about architecture. So you know, do you want 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.839 to try to write like a little piece of a 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.120 sidebar to the US Open piece next year? So you know, 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.480 I started writing when I was sophomore in college, and 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:58.000 and by the time when I was a senior, I 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.319 had a writing for magazine's course and just before the 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.000 semester was over, I had an eight page feature article 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:09.680 in coffee. So I did well in that course, you know, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.640 but that was a huge help to me because you know, 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:18.280 I because of that, I didn't just have access to 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.320 people as a young guy who wanted to be a 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:23.720 golf course architect. You know, I could call up people 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.320 in the golf business as a golf writer and and 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.439 asked them all sorts of questions. So that was great 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.000 for me for access to people. And then you know 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.960 Ben Crenshaws. Then you know, I wrote him a letter 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.400 when I was eighteen and said, if if you know, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.760 if you or me, what would you do. And because 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.120 he you know, even though he hadn't started an architecture, yeah, 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.320 it was pretty well known that he was interested in 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.400 architecture and tried to see great courses. So you know, 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.160 at first he listed a few courses that he thought 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.320 I should see, and then he said, he basically said, well, 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:00.520 you know, if you come out to a turn during 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.200 a practice day, just just uh, you know, come up 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.680 and introduce yourself on a practice day and you know 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.120 we can walk around and talk talk about the golf 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:13.080 course a little bit. So I did that four or 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.000 five times while I was in college, and you know, 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.240 I got to walk inside the Ropes with Crenshaw and 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.439 Sevy Biasteros or David Graham and watch them play golf 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.240 really up close and then talk some about the golf 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.720 course that we were seeing, and you know, wouldn't trade 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.080 those experiences for anything. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:39.959 How you know, you've had obviously Stonewall had the US 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:45.320 Midam and you know Bandon Dune, Pacific Dunes has had 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.360 some amateur events and high level amateur events, and then 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.520 you've you've obviously walked inside the ropes like you just said, 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:56.480 with Crenshawe and uh Sevy b by Seros. How much 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.880 how how much does it help when you get to 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.560 see that high level golf with architecture and kind of 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.960 you know, understanding principles and how different people play the game. 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:19.760 Well, it's a good question, and it's kind of there's 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.600 a lot of ways it helps and there's some ways 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.120 it hurts. I think, you know, because I worked for 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:29.319 mister Dye. I was around the tour a lot when 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.400 I was really young, you know. I worked for him 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.600 just just when the TPC at Sawgraph came out and 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.199 they played. I was there for the first two tournaments. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.440 They spent a lot of time walking with he die 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.040 those first two years of the tournament, while he would, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.560 you know, while people were criticizing the golf course, and 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.360 you know, he was just walking around watching play, trying 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.360 to decide for himself if the holes were the way 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.960 he thought they did, and they really did. You know, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.320 you know, he'd gotten an the skin of the players 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.520 a lot. And you know, the guys, the guys that 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.960 were more interested in architecture and more critical of the 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.400 golfers were so tied up in that that they couldn't 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.839 play the golfers worth a damn. But then there were 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.480 young guys that you know, were just sort of okay, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.480 you know, I just this is really tough, and I 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.160 got to hit these shots, and there were guys that 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.880 could play the golfers. So you know, that was a 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.600 fascinating time to be around the tour and and and 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.840 talk to some of those guys and see what their 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.360 opinions were. You know, when I got on my own, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.960 I realized really fast that that you know, when I 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.080 built High Point in Traverse City for a for a 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.640 guy that had owned the land for years, you know, 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.480 the tour was never coming there. You know. I mean 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.200 I was around the tour enough to understand that, you know, 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.160 where they play tournaments at that level is about where 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:57.240 the sponsors want them to so you know, so you know, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.880 I never really visualized that my career would be about 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:02.160 that at all. Certainly at the start it wasn't going 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.240 to be. So you know, I kind of had to 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.880 forget some of what I've learned and not worry about illness. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.200 Set of tea is at seventy four hundred yards because 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.800 the people that were paying forty five dollars to play 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:17.560 High Point didn't need those teas. Yeah, And you know, 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:19.719 and because I'd been around the tour a little bit 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.480 when when early clients would bring up something like that, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.760 I could just laugh at them and correct them really that, like, no, 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.120 don't think about that. You're crazy to think about that 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.800 unless you've got five million dollars burning a hole in 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.640 your pocket, in which case, let's revise my design feel 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:37.160 a little there. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:42.800 Yeah, So you know, you were part of, you know, 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.600 part of kind of the the group of architectures that 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.000 ushered in this you know, new style of design that 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:55.319 was minimalists and really, like you said, focused more on 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.280 the everyday player and you know what they needed rather 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.920 than building long, hard golf courses that kind of fit 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:08.720 into a square box par seventy to four par five's 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:14.000 four par threes. What was you know, the toughest part about, 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.680 you know, kind of ushering in this new thought and 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:18.040 new thinking of design. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.480 Well, it wasn't. I mean, when I started at high point, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.800 you know, I really only had to answer to one client, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:32.040 and I sort of started with the idea that it 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:36.040 was a really good piece of l end and if 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.120 I failed, I wanted to fail on the side of 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.680 you know, moving less dirt instead of moving too much, 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.200 because everything I'd seen for the last ten years with 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.440 people moving too much by my but for my case, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.400 you know, I mean, by then I got around and 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.720 seeing most of the best golf courses in the world, 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.800 and most of the ones I really liked weren't built 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:00.560 that way, you know. I mean, and I saw how 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.160 Pete Died built what he built, and I'm not demeaning 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.480 it by I mean, he's a genius for coming up 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.880 with some of the things he did on bad pieces 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.160 of ground. But when you got a good piece of ground, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.800 you don't have to do those things. And you know, 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.400 I was really lucky to stumble into my first job 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.640 with a pretty good piece of ground to work with, 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.600 and I just thought, you know that, I mean, sort 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.200 of the guiding light of it was that three miles 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.600 down the road from High Point was a Jack Nicholas 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.560 course called the Bear at Grand Traverse Resort, and it 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.920 was a completely manufactured golf course. They went out in 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:34.880 the field and built a bunch of nouns and lakes 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.520 and everything else and called it Scottish style, which just 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.120 you know, horrified me. But you know, I just kept thinking, 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.160 you know, I want to do something that's almost the 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.800 dead opposite of that on this piece of ground and 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:52.080 just see how it goes. And you know, the superintendent 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.720 that we hired to work on a Tommy who had 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.800 been at Crystal Downs for a while before he worked 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.320 with me. You know, he and I were talking about 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.400 at that point, you know, we were young, and it's 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.880 sort of like, well, if fifty percent of people like 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.200 it and fifty percent of people hate it, then will 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.720 be about the right place. And of course we didn't 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:12.560 tell our clients that because the client probably would have 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.400 been horrified. You know, most clients like ninety nine point 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.440 nine percent of people to like it. They don't want 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.680 to give up a potential custom, you know, and unfortunately 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.360 that's you know, that's why everything gets so homaged. We'd 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.840 better do four part three because that's what people like. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:36.840 And you know, the old golf course architects didn't think 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.120 that way. It hadn't been so standardized yet. And plus 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.840 they you know, it wasn't such a commercial business in 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.880 the nineteen twenties. I mean, golf clubs in the nineteen 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.120 twenties were actually formed by a group of guys that 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.520 wanted to build a gos club. Now they're formed by 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.400 a developer who wants to sell memberships in it. Even 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.200 if he's not really looking to make money in it, 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.160 he's still concerned about you know, he's taken the financial 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.680 risk and he's got to figure out how to sell 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.760 the memberships in it to get his money back. So 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.840 you know, he doesn't want to rock the boat too much. 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.360 And that's you know a lot of architects are really 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.240 afraid to rock the boat. And I'm just not because 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.320 I've seen a lot of things that are really different 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.640 and I know they worked, and and I think, well, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.880 why can't I make that same idea work, or why 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.000 can't I make a little different idea work. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.000 It's it's interesting you you talk about that, and I'm curious. 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.440 You know. Obviously with Cyprus Point, I know Alistair McKenzie 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.560 was worried that he had gone too far and you know, 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:43.800 done too much and worried that it was going to 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:48.440 be too tough. But the natural beauty obviously nobody complained 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.280 about it. Do you feel that you your golf course 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.200 when you when you build something and looking at it, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.800 you know, for the future of golf, you know, twenty 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.040 years said do you need to have do you feel 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.640 like you need to have criticism from some some angle 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.639 if if it's a great project, does it have to 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.200 have some sort of criticism? 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:16.000 Oh? I don't know. I just you know, it doesn't 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.159 have to. But I'm not afraid of it. Yeah, you know, 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.200 and that's and that's having you know, having been around 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.200 Pete die for that week of stagraph, I'm not afraid 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.480 of that because that it'll never get more intense than that. 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.480 And that was and ultimately that was good for god. 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.520 Yep, yep, it's uh, he did it great stuff. I 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:43.439 think that Uh, Pete Dye often gets a very bad rap, 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.040 you know when people talk about his designs. Being too 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.080 penal and you having a you know, a front row 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:56.000 seat to that. I imagine a lot of the design philosophy. 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.399 Some of his designs were based off of what the 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.000 developer wants correctly. 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:05.520 Well, they always thought, yeah, I mean, you're always you've 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.879 always got to answer to your client to some degree. 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:14.240 And you know a lot of people, you know, when 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:18.600 people criticize what other architects are doing, you know that 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:20.600 you have to stop and think, well, what are they 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.840 being hired to do? You know, I mean most of 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:27.760 the projects that Jack Nicholas gets, you know, the developer 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:34.040 wants a big, expensive, quote unquote championship golf course because 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.280 he's trying to sell big expensive lots next to it. 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.560 And that's what those people think. They you know, that's 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.520 what they think is prestige and what they want to 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.600 live on. So, you know, if you're not going to 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:50.920 see Jack Nicholas build a sixty three hundred yard minimalist 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.960 efficient golf course, because that's that's not the kind of 0:19:54.960 --> 0:20:01.000 people that hire him, you know, you know he you 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.840 know a lot of people are very critical of mister due, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.120 which to me is crazy. I mean, nobody that's ever 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:11.880 spent any time with the die would criticize the man 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:16.240 at all. I mean, he's He's given a lot to 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:22.160 a lot of people. He's always been very open about 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.399 the game and what he thinks is right about it 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.639 and what he thinks is wrong about it. You know, 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.680 he had me ghostwriting articles about how the golf equipment 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.320 was getting out of hand thirty years ago. That more 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:40.119 than thirty years ago. You know, he's still sort of 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.840 a role model to me, especially in the way he 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.720 went about the work, how involved he was in it personally, 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.320 and and that you know, he made decisions out in 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.080 the field and he changed it. He changed his mind 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.240 on the fly to make something better. He wasn't afraid to, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.280 you know, do that. And you know, even if even 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:01.760 if the client was nervous about it, and it's like 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.920 it's gonna be fine. I'm here, I'll get it sorted out. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.359 And you know, people see our work as being completely 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:14.200 different because my golf courses don't look like his golf courses, 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:18.840 but you know, the way that they're built, and you know, 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.080 and even a lot of the philosophy behind them. I mean, 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.280 I'm building golf courses that are challenging to people, and 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.960 you know, I just I just put the challenge in 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.560 different places and they don't make it all about length 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.320 because I'm not building golf courses for the tour, yep. 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.800 I think I think that the tour needs more golf 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:44.520 courses where the challenge isn't you know, off the tee, 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.840 you know, you've got hazards on both sides, and then 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.840 hit it to the green because it produces a certain 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.520 type of player, you know, a golf course does. 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.199 There's there's no doubt that the Tour tour courses and 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.600 the way they set up the courses favor certain kinds 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:06.240 of players. And you know they're not doing it deliberately, 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.360 but but it's but they do it. But they they 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.119 do make deliberate decisions that have that effect, you know, 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.199 like they'll set up a hole so if you know, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.240 they'll set up a hole so the long hitters can 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.679 make a carry and the short hitters release mh you know, 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.840 and they think that rewards the guy who can hit 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.760 the ball farther. But then if the if the wins 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.320 in the face of that hole and the long hitters 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.520 can't make the carry, they'll move the teasa so that 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.280 the long hitter can still make the carry and the 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.000 short hitters still can't. So now who are they? You know, 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.240 now it's clear they have a bias. 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:42.800 I think. 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:45.720 You know, any short hitter on tour will tell you that. 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.879 I think a perfect example of that is is you 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:55.400 look at Riviera and you know, probably the best architecture, 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.920 architecturally sound golf course that they play year and year out. 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.080 And you know, they haven't had a winner at Riviera 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:08.240 younger than twenty eight years old in the last I 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:13.960 think twelve years. And it favors somebody that understand. I 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:18.639 think that course has no force carries. It's more about 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.760 hitting shots to the correct angles than it is hitting 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.600 it far. You know, there is a lot of strategy 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:27.720 if you go for a carry and you don't, you 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.680 know there there's so much that goes into that golf course. 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.480 And I really think that's a great example. You see 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:37.239 guys like last year you had kJ Toy, you know, 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:39.679 in the lead late on Sunday and this is a 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.280 forty five year old who hits it, you know, two 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.240 hundred and seventy yards. And this year you have Dustin 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:47.919 Johnson when it albeit it was soft and you know, 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.400 the rain took a lot of the teeth out of it. 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.080 But you know, that's a course where it doesn't really 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.760 favor a specific type of player. 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:02.119 Well, I mean, I guess it doesn't favor a specific 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.440 type of player. It does reward a player who knows 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:07.240 how to work the ball left to right and right 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:09.720 to left, which you don't. There's not any courses on 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.240 tour that do anymore. It's really hard to build that 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.119 on a new course with no you know, if you 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:19.719 don't have any trees, you know, and you can, you know, 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:21.840 and you can carry the ball as far as those 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.840 guys do. You know, even if the fairway is curve 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:27.879 and left to right or right the left, or the 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:30.280 bunkers are set up a certain way, you know, they 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:32.160 can just hit it a mile in the air and 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.880 land it three hundred yards away in a relatively small 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:39.760 area and it doesn't matter which way it's curving. But 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:42.280 you know, Riviera takes that away, the results that you 0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:45.119 can't hit that. You know, you you know, if if 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:47.720 you're on fifteen, which kind of bends left to right 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:51.359 off the tee, and you're you can't hit that shot, 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:54.160 you kind of have to back off on the te 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:56.760 side because if you just you know, because you can't 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.200 take it up over the trees on the right to 0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:04.800 to go down there where you want to. You know, 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:08.120 there's certain shots that takes away from you uncertain hole, 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:10.919 and so you have to be able to adapt. You know, 0:25:11.000 --> 0:25:14.240 Dustin Johnson can't adapt. You know, even if he's even 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:15.720 if he's not going to try to hit the ball 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:18.520 left to right, he'll he'll back off and he's still 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:20.439 long enough he can hit the long shot into the 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:21.520 green for the second shot. 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:26.800 So I had Michael Clayton on the podcast a couple 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:30.280 of months ago, and he talked about how he believes 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:35.400 technology has diminished the skill. And obviously, you know, nobody's 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:39.640 going to argue it's it's altered the path or the design. 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:45.080 You know, you designed your first course in nineteen ninety 0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:50.280 or nineteen eighty nine. How would you How have your 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:55.439 philosophy has changed over the years because of technology. 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:01.120 It My philosophy hasn't changed very much in thirty years. 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:01.320 You know. 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:04.600 And some people would say, oh, you shouldn't say something 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:09.399 stuff like that. That doesn't sound right, But you know again, 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:13.800 I'm I'm not building my courses for the elite players. 0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:16.159 I mean, I think about the elite players. I've been 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:19.720 around enough of them, you know, Mike Clayton. I've had 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:21.879 more fun playing golf with Mike Clayton at half a 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:24.600 dozen times than with almost anybody I've ever played with, 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.480 because he, you know, he does know how to work 0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:31.040 the ball and half shots. You know. He came to 0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:33.960 the state a bunch of years ago when I was 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:36.840 doing that Park of Palooza thing. We were going out 0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:39.399 to sand Hills. We stopped and played a couple of 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:41.600 the other courses in the sand Hills on the way out, 0:26:42.200 --> 0:26:45.679 and one of them, that Bayside course that Dan Proctor 0:26:45.760 --> 0:26:50.159 and Dave Exlent built, had some really severe holes. And 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:51.879 there was a hole that was a little like Sticked 0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:53.760 at Riviera with a bunker in the middle of a green, 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:56.800 except more slope around it, and the pin was like 0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:00.520 back right, And after we'd all at a shot to 0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:02.960 the green, I was like, I wonder if you could 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.399 hit a shot you know that's that green looks though severe. 0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:07.359 It's like you could land a ball on the upper 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:10.520 tier behind the pin or behind the bunker and have 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.280 it sucked back down around the bunker to the lower 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:15.920 tier where the tin is and you know, It took 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.680 Mike two tries to hit that shot. And and you know, 0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:23.280 there's a lot of guys on tour that could they 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:25.919 can hit those kind of shot and the shots that 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:27.879 Sevy used to try to play and the shots that 0:27:27.920 --> 0:27:30.840 Ben Crenshaw used to play all the time. But there's 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:33.600 no percentage in it anymore. You know, nobody builds the 0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:37.560 golf course where I mean, you know, that wasn't you know, 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:40.560 that wasn't really the high percentage shot for Mike at 0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:43.080 the time. It was just like, yeah, I could pull 0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:45.960 that off. And it's a shame we don't see courses 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.520 that that get them to try those shots, because they're 0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:52.719 really you know, that's what I learned from Pete die 0:27:52.840 --> 0:27:56.480 and watching the TPC. Those guys are way more talented 0:27:56.520 --> 0:27:59.240 than you get to see week to week. 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.960 Yeah, I think then, but for my own work. 0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:09.399 You know, my own work will give them fancies to 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:12.800 hit shots like that. But I'm just not worried about 0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:15.200 whether they're going to shoot sixty four when they come 0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:18.159 because I don't have, you know, because there's not going 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:20.920 to be a seventy two hole PGA Tour stroke play 0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:24.479 event on this course, and because and you know, and 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.240 I don't have any ego at stake over what they do. 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.520 You know, Gary Woodland went to Dismal River a couple 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:33.840 of years ago, thinking you should you should play on Sescu. 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:35.800 The week before he went to Chambers Bay for the 0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:38.560 Open and shot fifty nine one day on my course, 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:43.600 And you know, that kind of boggles my mind. And 0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:46.600 at the same time, I'm like, yeah, you know, he's 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:49.320 that good if he gets a going. You know, those 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:52.320 aren't the most severe greens I ever built. He's reaching 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:56.600 the par fives into no problem. Yeah, and probably driving 0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:58.840 one of the par fours too. So yes, he could 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:01.400 shoot a number like that, plays a great round of golf, 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.080 and that does That doesn't really bother me, you know. 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:06.360 And the thing is, the thing is I think if 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:08.360 you asked and you'd say, oh, no, that was a 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:10.160 great round and I had a lot of fun, And 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:13.240 it's not like I wasn't challenged. Yes, it's just that 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:15.040 the you know, the number adds up to what it 0:29:15.040 --> 0:29:15.440 adds up. 0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:20.160 But it's well, I think that's a huge problem with golf. 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:23.760 Is this Why why are we so wrapped up with 0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:27.840 par It's just it's just a number, Like who cares 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:32.640 if you go out and shoot sixty three or eighty three, 0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:37.680 as long as you had fun, you know, right, and you. 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:42.240 Know you could go you know, you could go different 0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:46.000 directions with that. Like you know, I went and saw 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.280 David Kid's course at Gamble Sands a couple of years ago, 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:53.800 and I, you know, I had heard about it that 0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:56.080 you know, kind of as a reaction to some of 0:29:56.120 --> 0:29:59.160 the other things that he'd done that that were critiqued 0:29:59.200 --> 0:30:02.640 pretty heavily, including by me, that you know, he'd built 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.040 a golf course that was you know, it was big 0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:07.479 and pretty, but it was pretty easy, you know, Like 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:10.200 I mean in golf club at last, you know, the 0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:14.040 first testimonial to have like five of the eight guys 0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:18.800 in my group had their career low score. And I'm like, well, 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:22.000 that sounds crazy. You know, if it's really if it's 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:26.760 really that easy that that you know, everybody's shooting their 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.800 career low score, then you know, because I still you know, 0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:31.920 I worked for Petei. I still believe that you want 0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:35.040 to challenge the golfer. I don't believe that you want 0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:38.040 to make them shoot one hundred and twelve, but you 0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:40.520 want some shots out there that are challenging to him. 0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:42.880 And if if you're doing that, then they're probably not 0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.600 shooting their career low score the first time they see 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:50.640 the place. Yes, and you know there is a fine 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:53.040 you know, there's a fine line. I mean, you know, 0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:55.400 I mean, one of the things I've learned about design is, 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:58.400 you know, I think a lot of my best work 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:02.080 is is the power four, especially the short par fours. 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:04.120 And the reason the short part four has come out 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:08.440 so good is because because you can get away with more. 0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:11.680 You know, it's like it's only three hundred and fifty yards, 0:31:11.720 --> 0:31:14.080 so this green can be severe or that's you know, 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:16.680 I can pinch the landing area really narrow, or I 0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:18.880 can put cross bunkers forty yards in front of the 0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:22.240 greens because you know, because I'm not making you lay 0:31:22.320 --> 0:31:25.280 up off the tee and hit a fourwood in you know, 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:27.680 you can approach this a whole different a whole bunch 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:30.600 of different ways. And the other thing that's interesting about 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:33.040 short part four is is you know, you can give 0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:36.720 people a really wide range of angles into the green. 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:39.960 You know, a four hundred and seventy yard hole. Most people, 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:41.600 you know, they just have to hit it on the 0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:43.720 line because they have to hit it as far as 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:46.160 they can twice just to get there, and they can't 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:49.160 really worry about what kind of angle they're giving themselves. 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:51.240 But a three hundred and fifty yard hole, yeah, you 0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:53.240 can drive it way out to the right and still 0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:56.920 be hitting nine er in their witch. Yeah. 0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:01.800 From what I've I've played about seven of your courses, 0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:05.760 and the short part fours are really great, and they 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:09.480 what I really like about them is if you play 0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:12.280 them correctly, you've got a great shot at you know, 0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:15.640 you've you should make birdie. But if you the second 0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:19.360 you get out of position, you're you're in a very 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:22.840 very difficult place where all of a sudden you're looking 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:24.960 at it and like, well, I have to hit a 0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:27.760 really great shot here to make you know, A have 0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:30.760 a chance at three and even make four sometimes depending 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:33.560 on how how far out of position you get. Now 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:35.960 to mention you know, you have so many different ways 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:38.600 you could play it. One that comes to mind is 0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:43.240 stream song. Is it thirteen thirteen at stream song or 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:47.680 fourteen thirteen? Uh huh? And that one I got into 0:32:47.720 --> 0:32:49.640 the I tried to hit driver and I got into 0:32:49.680 --> 0:32:53.280 the left bunker and oh my god, I was just 0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:58.320 in the worst place in the world, and I think 0:32:58.360 --> 0:33:01.920 I just picked up my ball after after about seven shots. 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:06.480 Well, you know that hole is that whole is kind 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:08.960 of loosely based on and that's a loosely based on 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:11.400 sixth at Pacific Dunes. It's one of those it's the 0:33:11.480 --> 0:33:14.840 only hole extream song that we had to do a 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:16.720 lot of earthwork on that hole. I mean, it was 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:20.080 kind of the fairway was a lot higher than it 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:22.480 is now, and it was you couldn't you couldn't even 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:24.880 see where the water was coming in on the left 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:27.520 because the fairway was so high you couldn't see over 0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:29.239 it and see that there was a really steep and 0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:32.040 there there was like a really steep, dangerous edge to 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:34.440 the left side. So we kind of had to cut 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:37.520 it down to make it, to make it where you 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:40.040 could get people around the golf course without somebody driving 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:43.520 a car over a cliff by accident. And you know, 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:47.320 and and you know, Bill Gore needed the dirt from 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:50.040 that fairway for for one of the teas that he 0:33:50.120 --> 0:33:52.800 wanted to build, so we just, you know, we just 0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:55.760 moved all the dirt over to his hole and you know, 0:33:56.080 --> 0:33:58.400 just whittled away at the fairway until we got it down. 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:01.360 But but I was trying to think of, Okay, how 0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:03.400 do I do a short par four with a fair 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.239 way down in the green up? And you know, I 0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:08.440 think six it. Pacific is one of the best poles 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:11.319 that I've built. So it's the only it's the only 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:15.000 hole I've tried to copy that that basic idea from 0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:18.040 for for this hole as well. I mean, the difference 0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:20.000 is the one that streams Song is even a little shorter, 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:22.520 and you're usually not playing it right into the teeth 0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:25.440 of the wind these you know, Pacific, it's into the 0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:28.080 wind most of the time, So you know, driving the 0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:31.759 green is not really you know, you could drive it 0:34:31.840 --> 0:34:34.400 up and near there somewhere, but if the wind is 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:36.160 in your face, you're not going to drive the green. 0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:39.040 You're to pro Yeah, to pros are going to do 0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:41.640 it that much stream song. You can really take a 0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:43.799 shot at it if you want. I mean, it's it's 0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:46.560 a hell of a rip. I've never hit driver in 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:49.040 that hole myself. I haven't played it a lot of times, 0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:53.040 but you know, I'm not going to take the bait 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:55.759 on that particular hole because I know, because I know 0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:59.520 how many things can go wrong. And a friend of 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.520 mine as says that on my short part Furs, you 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:07.520 should just never take the beat, no matter how tempting 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:10.800 it looks. You know, this would be an easy birdie 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:13.800 if I just do this that that's usually a bad 0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:18.759 play at least for them percentage wise. And you know, 0:35:18.920 --> 0:35:20.719 and that's kind of what you're trying to do. Yeah, 0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:22.560 I mean, you're you're at least trying to make it 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:26.600 where the guy who is, you know, going for something 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.319 has taken a big risk to do it. Well, you know, 0:35:29.360 --> 0:35:31.880 if you could, if you could drive it anywhere and 0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:35.960 still make birdie all the time, then that's not a 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:36.520 very good hole. 0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:40.320 I agree, And I mean I walked off the hole 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:43.520 and I thought to myself, why the hell did you 0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:46.200 just hit driver when you can just hit a four 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:49.920 iron right here and you've got a wedgend. And I 0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:53.000 think that's a great way though, That's a great subtle 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:57.359 way to challenge, you know, the better player is to 0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:01.880 give them something that entices them to hit driver, because 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:06.560 they every every really good player thinks they can hit 0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:09.480 driver where they want it if they really need to. 0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:12.839 And you know, and they and they think that they 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:16.120 should be entitled to hit driver on every single longer hole. 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:19.560 You know, I've heard that cruisism a bunch from from 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:22.400 good players. Don't take the driver out of my hands, 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:26.279 and I don't just make it like a stupid play 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:29.160 sometimes that you can hit it. I'm not making you 0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:33.560 lay up. You better hit a good shot if you 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:38.280 do it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really important 0:36:38.280 --> 0:36:41.919 part of golf. And you know the tough part about 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:45.000 doing that though, and the reason you don't see every 0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:48.920 other architect doing the same thing is because it's not 0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:53.080 always popular to do that. You know, you walked off 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:55.520 and think, you know, I've learned something about architecture. But 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.279 a lot of like low handicapped guys are going to 0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:00.759 make you know, they make eight in a short part 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.719 for they hate the whole and they might hate the 0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:06.319 whole golf course as a result of fact, and they're 0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:08.000 not going to go back and play it the second 0:37:08.040 --> 0:37:11.400 time and figure it out. So and then the client 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:14.799 is nervous about that. So there's a lot of and 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.719 the architect is nervous about that because he wants to 0:37:17.760 --> 0:37:20.960 win some award and he doesn't want good players to 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:24.719 go around telling him he's building unfair of golf courses. 0:37:25.680 --> 0:37:28.440 It's really bad for business. So there's a lot of 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:30.960 guys that just shy away from building things like that 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:35.120 that might be controversial. And again, I mean, I've just 0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:38.439 been you know, I've just been trained from day one 0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:41.160 not to be afraid of any of that. You know 0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:44.200 that that's that actually makes the golf course better in 0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:47.479 the long run, provided you have the confidence that people 0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:52.160 are going to come back, you know. And yeah, you 0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:54.440 have to have some confidence. And you know where I 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:57.719 am now, it's a little easier to have that confidence. 0:37:57.800 --> 0:37:59.840 People will give me the benefit of the doubt and 0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:04.319 you know, but but you know, I only got there 0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:07.239 because I've been doing it from the start. You know, 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:11.360 even when I was risking my career, I was building 0:38:11.400 --> 0:38:12.640 those kinds of holes. 0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:18.000 So which, uh, which of your projects are you most 0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:20.520 proud of? You know, it doesn't have to necessarily be 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:24.560 the best one or the highest rated one, but what 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:27.040 what one are you most proud of? And why? 0:38:29.840 --> 0:38:32.759 Well, you know, I'm gonna I don't give the politically 0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:37.680 correct the answer that they're all my children, but you know, 0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:39.840 I'm proud of a lot of them. I mean, you know, 0:38:40.239 --> 0:38:43.640 we've worked on some great projects and you know, and 0:38:44.280 --> 0:38:46.160 you know, not just me, but the guys that work 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:48.440 for me a ton of time on them, trying to 0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:51.200 get them right, and I think they've come out really good. 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:56.120 And you know, still picking one between specific dunes and 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:59.799 barn Google and you know, and then some places like 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:04.239 Creek that aren't as well known, or Stone Eagle that 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:07.799 was really hard to build. But you know, if it's 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:11.120 not everybody's cup of tea, you know, I'm proud of 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:17.839 all of those, you know, to some extent, I'm just 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.359 as proud of something like Common Ground that we build 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:23.000 a public course that people can play for forty bucks, 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:26.560 especially considering some of the programs that they've come up 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:31.759 with to not just encourage golf, to encourage public golf 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:34.720 and encourage youth golf there. But you know, we managed 0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:36.960 to build them a little kids course on the side 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:41.799 for free for you know what we saved up during 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:46.160 the construction budget by building it as as efficiently as 0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:48.840 we could. And they, you know, they've used it for 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:52.160 all kinds of school programs. And then then one of 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.200 the one of the people involved with the Evans Scholarships 0:39:55.200 --> 0:39:59.240 in Colorado decided to like start like a a caddy 0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:05.440 camp and leadership academy on it so that they they 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:08.120 train the kids, the local kids in the neighborhood and 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:11.200 kids that they bust in to be caddies, and they 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:14.480 subsidize it so you want, they pay They pay the 0:40:14.520 --> 0:40:16.600 caddy a little bit out of their fund so that 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:19.239 you only have to pay twenty five dollars to take 0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:21.279 a caddy. It doesn't cost any more in a golf 0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:25.319 cart wood. And then and then by by letting these 0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:28.760 kids caddy, if the caddy more than like twenty rounds 0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:33.080 in the summer, they're eligible to apply for the Evans Scholarship. Yeah, 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:38.960 so that, you know, I'm really proud of that for entirely, 0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:40.719 you know, for reasons they have nothing to do with 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:43.920 golf course architecture or my egos. You know, it's just 0:40:44.000 --> 0:40:46.479 nice to work for clients that try to do cool 0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:48.600 things for golf links. Yeah. 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:52.200 I think that is an emerging trend in the industry. 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:55.600 What we're starting to see is, you know, with places 0:40:55.640 --> 0:41:01.360 like winter Park golf course and and common Ground where 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:06.160 there's these new you know, municipality run golf courses that 0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:11.319 are less expensive and you know, one of the things 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:14.560 I think is interesting is that you know everybody and 0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:19.239 likes to go. They don't really know the names of architecture, 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:23.680 and you you've established a great intern program. I'd be curious, 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:27.200 you know, if you were running a municipality and you 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.040 could hire you know, if you could put five guys 0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:31.960 on a list of who you'd want to hire to 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:35.879 do a lower cost renovation of a of a golf course, 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:36.560 who would they be? 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:44.480 Are? Now I have to be playing correctice. You're asking 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.719 me to pick between like fifteen guys that that have 0:41:47.800 --> 0:41:51.880 worked for me at various times, and and I've you know, 0:41:51.960 --> 0:41:55.120 and I've helped train that are all really talented, you know, 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:57.680 including three guys you know, including three or four that 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:01.080 still work for me on my payroll, where talented as anything. 0:42:01.360 --> 0:42:04.920 I mean, you know, the hardest thing about my company 0:42:05.080 --> 0:42:08.800 is that, you know, I always envisioned that the guys would, 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:12.680 you know, the young people that we brought in, you know, 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:14.960 would event you would want to move through and then 0:42:15.040 --> 0:42:17.759 try to get out on their own, you know, like 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:19.120 I did when I worked for you know, I worked 0:42:19.160 --> 0:42:22.480 for Pete Die for like four years, and and there 0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:24.839 wasn't really a way to keep working for Pete Dye 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:27.680 He didn't really keep a payroll. He just moved from 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:29.839 one project to the next, and they were all over 0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:31.759 and you know, you just had to pick up and 0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:33.759 move to the next one when you were done with one. 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:37.080 So it wasn't you know, it was a business model 0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:39.880 where the employees were it was they were intended to 0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:42.640 kind of burn out after a while and then you'd 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:45.080 find new people to replace them. You know. He gave 0:42:45.120 --> 0:42:48.160 a lot of people a chance that way, and I've 0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:51.600 tried to do the same thing. But you know, when 0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:54.000 the when the recession happened and all of a sudden 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:57.160 it was really hard to get a job. Then, you know, 0:42:57.239 --> 0:42:59.439 nobody wants to leave and try to go on their own. 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:02.160 And that was you know, that was a really tough 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:04.799 thing in my company, having to downsize a little bit 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:07.720 and try to figure out who's stayed and who laughed, 0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:10.319 you know, And I tried to do it in a way. 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:14.560 You know, I kind of kicked the senior guys out 0:43:14.600 --> 0:43:17.839 of the nest, which was very controversial, but I knew 0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:19.680 they could make it on their own by then, and 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:23.040 I knew the other guys couldn't. And you know, and 0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:25.920 by that point, you know, the younger guys were the 0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:29.000 ones that were on the machine shape and the stuff. 0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:31.360 And to me, that's the most important part of the 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.000 whole deal. You know, if you're if you're really good 0:43:34.000 --> 0:43:36.920 at that, you will always have work in this business. 0:43:37.320 --> 0:43:39.239 And you know, and that's one of the great things 0:43:39.239 --> 0:43:41.400 about my internship program, all these young guys that have 0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.759 worked for me, If I don't have, you know, I mean, 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:49.320 I don't want to be so busy, you know, I 0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:51.160 don't want to be gone three hundred and sixty five 0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:53.640 days a year so that they can all stay busy. 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:56.800 You know. I just I can only do so many 0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:03.200 projects a year without losing my mind, you know, getting 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:07.520 too frazzled trying to do too many things. So a 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:10.239 lot of these guys, you know, especially with you know, 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:14.200 with Eric Iverson and Brian Swonik and Brian Schneider who 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:16.880 still work for me, I mean, all the young guys 0:44:16.880 --> 0:44:20.000 that have worked for us, know that it's going to 0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:22.960 be hard to ever, you know, get past them and 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:25.080 root one of them out. I mean they you know, 0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:28.720 they're like still young and enthusiastic guys with like fifteen 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:32.800 years experience on the equipment. Who can you know, build 0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:36.080 anything you want at the snap of a finger. So 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:38.760 you know, so all the young people that come through 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:41.359 see that, see the writing on the wall that they're 0:44:41.400 --> 0:44:42.680 either going to have to go on their own or 0:44:42.680 --> 0:44:44.960 they're going to have to go work for somebody else eventually, 0:44:46.000 --> 0:44:50.040 you know, when we're not so busy, but they are, 0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:53.279 you know, they're you know. The cool thing is that 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:59.520 nearly every good project in the last fifteen years, no 0:44:59.560 --> 0:45:03.200 matter who the architect is, there's like one or two 0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:06.600 guys that that worked for me for a while that 0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:11.560 have helped build it, you know, and you know, and 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:14.960 because we've had success, and because a lot of architects 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:19.800 are curious about how we do things. You know, having 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:24.960 worked on barn Google Dunes or Pacific Dunes or Dismal 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:28.520 River or wherever is a pretty good thing to have 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:31.719 on your resume. And you know, some other architect will 0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.440 want you to work on his project so he can 0:45:34.480 --> 0:45:37.120 try to get a little bit of as knowledge into it. 0:45:37.600 --> 0:45:41.359 M that's uh, it's it's true, and I think you're 0:45:41.400 --> 0:45:45.600 on the right kind of philosophy. The best boss I 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:49.480 ever had told me that, you know, part of being 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:53.680 a boss is always trying to make uh, you know, 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:56.359 you're the people that report to you end up being 0:45:56.520 --> 0:45:58.680 better at your job than you are. 0:46:01.600 --> 0:46:04.600 Yeah. Yeah, And it's you know, it's it's a weird 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:08.680 thing because I you know, I mean, I'm a very 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:15.120 hands on person, and you know, I'm still kind of 0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:19.719 resistant to the fact that you know, I've graduated to 0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:21.960 the point where I'm not at sean time on my 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:25.080 own projects. You know. I mean I went out and 0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:27.520 walked with's left of high point with somebody the other 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.400 day and said to them, well, you know, the special 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:32.480 thing about this is this is the only one of 0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:37.560 these courses that I built all these creams myself, and 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:39.960 and you know, I'm not saying they're better than the 0:46:39.960 --> 0:46:42.919 ones that my guys are doing with me. Now we're 0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:46.400 turning out great work now too. But I you know, 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:50.799 it was different because it was all me and and 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:53.520 I really enjoyed that part of the business. And you know, 0:46:54.440 --> 0:47:02.600 I'm not good, you know, I'm bulldozer to justify. I mean, 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:09.960 I clearly got tons of people around about when I 0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:12.600 did it at a high point place that you know, 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:15.359 a lot of times I didn't even know exactly where 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:17.040 I was going when I was when I when I 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:20.520 would get on and start building green. But you know, 0:47:21.160 --> 0:47:23.279 I knew when to jump off because it'll look good. 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:31.440 And that's a really different process than what everybody imagines 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:34.080 we do, is that you know, we have an exact 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.080 idea of what this green is going to look like, 0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:39.560 you know, when we're chomping around in the trees before 0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:41.880 we ever start building a golf course. I mean, I 0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:45.319 don't have that all figured out in my mind. You know, 0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:47.920 that's the fun part. That's that's what makes going to 0:47:47.960 --> 0:47:51.279 work every day exciting, is you know, figuring it out 0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:52.600 and making it better as you go. 0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:58.400 Yeah, so you've done a ton of restorations, you know, 0:47:58.480 --> 0:48:03.239 of a lot of classic golf courses. What's what would 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:06.239 you say is the most difficult thing about doing a 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:09.799 restoration versus designing a course? And you know some of 0:48:09.800 --> 0:48:10.759 the key differences. 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:17.440 Oh, by far, the most difficult thing is is dealing 0:48:17.480 --> 0:48:22.359 with big committees or you know, hundreds of members as 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:27.880 your client instead of one guy. You know, because because 0:48:27.920 --> 0:48:30.720 I've never I've never worked for any club where everybody 0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:33.120 was really on the same page. There are all sorts 0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:36.040 of factions and differences of opinion as to you know, 0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:38.840 what direction they should be going and they're looking to 0:48:38.920 --> 0:48:41.440 you for advice, but there's always going to be people 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:45.600 that disagree with you. And you know, and that's you know, 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.319 I've been really lucky and the golf courses that's done 0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:50.880 by myself. You know, I haven't worked for you know, 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:54.360 I imagine that dealing with you know, having a municipal project, 0:48:54.400 --> 0:48:57.080 you could run into that same problem. You know, you're 0:48:57.080 --> 0:49:00.399 dealing with a committee. I've only I've built thirty five 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:04.680 new courses and and only once I dealt with a committee. 0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:09.520 Nearly always I had like one person that I answered to, 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:14.120 And that's just you know, that's great because if you 0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:16.439 you know, if you you know, as long as they're 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:18.160 okay with what you're doing, then you don't have to 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:20.879 worry about what else, what else you're doing when you've 0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:22.800 got you know, when you got a bunch of members 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:26.319 and they want to know all the details. You know, 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:30.560 the one person client, he could be comfortable with the 0:49:30.600 --> 0:49:33.520 fact that you don't know everything. Right after that, m 0:49:35.480 --> 0:49:38.399 you know, other than that, I mean, you know, where 0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:44.400 I think where I think a lot of restoration renovation 0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:48.760 work goes wrong is you know, not so much the idea, 0:49:49.040 --> 0:49:53.239 but the execution. I mean, you know, in theory, if 0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:56.560 it's really a restoration project, and no matter what architects hired, 0:49:56.600 --> 0:49:59.880 they should be telling you the same thing. Between fis, 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:02.439 here's what the golf course was, here's what we should 0:50:02.480 --> 0:50:05.600 be trying to go back. But there, you know, there's 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:09.759 there's varying interpretations of what restoration means. You know, does 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:12.200 it mean putting back exactly what was there in nineteen 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:16.719 twenty six, or does it mean well, technology changed and 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:18.880 we all hit the bone so much farther now that 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:21.319 you know we're going to we're going to make it 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:24.279 play the same, but we got to stretch it out 0:50:24.320 --> 0:50:27.160 and move the fairway bunkers to different places and all that. 0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:32.080 You know, that's not the way I advise clubs most 0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:35.480 of the time. But but you know, that's a different interpretation. 0:50:36.200 --> 0:50:39.480 So you do have different ideas on what restoration is. 0:50:39.880 --> 0:50:45.239 But ultimately, when you're rebuilding something, you know, ideally you'd 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:47.720 just be doing the work that really needs to happen. 0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:50.319 Like you don't have to rebuild a hundred fairway bucks, 0:50:50.360 --> 0:50:51.960 you know, and I have to rebuild every bunker on 0:50:52.000 --> 0:50:55.480 this golf course. You just have to rebuild sun and then, 0:50:56.120 --> 0:50:58.120 you know, but you can only do that if you're 0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:02.239 good enough to make the new and look indistinguishable from 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:05.040 the stuff that was built fifty years ago. And there's 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:08.440 not that many people that are good at that, you know, 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:10.360 when you when you when you do it the normal 0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:12.920 way and get it out to a contractor, they're not 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:15.719 good at that, and they don't have that much incentive 0:51:15.760 --> 0:51:18.359 at being good at that. They just you know, their 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:21.440 contractors to build a bunker and get it done as 0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:24.120 fast as they can and not have to tinker around 0:51:24.120 --> 0:51:27.359 with it so much because they make more money that way. Yeah, 0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:31.080 and you know, and we just you know, I've got 0:51:31.120 --> 0:51:33.400 the guys who can get on the equipment and shape 0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:38.880 it and make it look like it fits, and you know, 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:41.760 and our incentive is all about getting it right, however 0:51:41.880 --> 0:51:46.439 long it takes. And you know, that's what our clients want. Yeah. 0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:53.080 It's so you've got the Loop opening this year, which 0:51:53.120 --> 0:51:56.560 is a reversible course. If anybody hasn't heard of it, 0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:00.120 you can play it's essentially two different golf courses of 0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:07.200 eighteen greens that you can play a different direction each day. 0:52:08.600 --> 0:52:12.239 Right, It's it's an eighteen old golf course that every 0:52:12.320 --> 0:52:16.520 other day you play at the backwards down in eighteen stairways, 0:52:16.640 --> 0:52:18.680 in the seventeen stairway and all the way back around, 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:20.920 and then the next day you play it forwards and 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:24.240 then and then you also did the Sheep Ranch out 0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:26.080 in Bandon Dunes, where. 0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:30.279 It's essentially you put the ball on the ground and 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:33.800 you tee it to different greens. I love this concept. 0:52:35.520 --> 0:52:40.360 What are some other kind of innovative concepts that you've 0:52:40.600 --> 0:52:43.719 you've got that you would love to try out? 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:50.239 Well, I don't say I've got a bunch, you know, 0:52:50.400 --> 0:52:54.120 not not all of them are like groundbreaking innovation. And 0:52:54.360 --> 0:52:57.640 you know, the reversible golf course wasn't my Yeah, that's 0:52:57.640 --> 0:52:59.799 something I read about in Tom Simpson's book when I 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:02.520 was like sixteen years old and just thought that's a 0:53:02.520 --> 0:53:04.640 cool idea. I'd love to do something like that today. 0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:07.520 It just took me off a long long time to 0:53:07.560 --> 0:53:10.960 find the right place to do it. So some of 0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:13.480 the things that I'm thinking about, I don't know if 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:18.799 I'll ever get a chance to do it. But there 0:53:18.840 --> 0:53:22.080 are there's a few different kinds of projects that I'd 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:27.680 like to do. You know. One one that I'll put 0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:29.239 out there that I've tried to sell to one or 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:34.040 two clients and they've they've shrugged it off, and like, no, no, no, 0:53:34.120 --> 0:53:37.520 we don't want to do anything like that. I would 0:53:37.560 --> 0:53:39.600 like to build a golf course that's tailored to women. 0:53:40.800 --> 0:53:43.960 You know, it's not just like has a good set 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:49.040 of women's teeth, but it's you know, it's it's sixty 0:53:49.080 --> 0:53:52.600 three hundred yards max. Because that's the longest the LTGA 0:53:52.680 --> 0:53:54.919 player would want to play it, and it goes down 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:59.600 from there. You know, that would be an entirely different experience, 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:02.200 you know. I mean, like I've spent a couple of 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:07.000 days in the practice rounds of the Women's Open at 0:54:07.040 --> 0:54:14.720 Sabonic watching them play my course and like up close. 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:20.040 I I contacted Stacey Lewis and Paul at Klemer and 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:23.200 it dances that event, and said, you know, could I 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:26.400 walk with you for a round and and just you know, 0:54:26.440 --> 0:54:29.960 watch what you're doing, and in return, I'll answer any 0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:32.160 questions you have about how I think you ought to 0:54:32.160 --> 0:54:34.560 play certain holes. And they both yes, we will do that. 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:37.600 So that was great for me to get back inside 0:54:37.600 --> 0:54:41.120 the ropes and and you know, see where they land 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:43.759 the ball and see how it reacts and you know, 0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:47.360 they're so precise. I mean, and women's off you know, 0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:52.600 like a savonic that the percentage of Fairway's hit statistic 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.200 was like, you know, the last player in the field 0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:59.319 was at seventy percent. Invest players are like ninety six 0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:02.400 because the airways are wide, and you know, they just 0:55:02.480 --> 0:55:05.359 stripe it like they're used to play in every golf course, 0:55:05.360 --> 0:55:08.040 like it's twenty yards wide. They never they never miss 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:13.200 wide very much, so you know, so that's the chance 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:15.319 to you know, and they don't hit the ball quite 0:55:15.320 --> 0:55:18.359 so high as the men do. Yeah, so you know, 0:55:19.440 --> 0:55:22.360 designing a course thinking about their skill set would be 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.440 very different. It wouldn't have to be this big wide 0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:30.000 thing that everybody builds now that I sort of help popularize. 0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:32.399 But at the same time, I'm thinking, you know, we've 0:55:32.440 --> 0:55:35.760 gone too far in that direction because all you've see 0:55:35.800 --> 0:55:38.919 now is, you know, every course that's won the Best 0:55:38.960 --> 0:55:42.040 New Award for the last twenty years is like the biggest, 0:55:42.040 --> 0:55:45.799 widest golf course that was up for nomination that year. 0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:50.239 It's like bigger is better, and you know, and I 0:55:50.239 --> 0:55:53.279 don't think that's true. And I think the way to 0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:56.000 do it is, you know, like really I just want 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:58.840 to build a sixty two hundred yard golf course. But 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:02.720 I think that the way to sell just only building 0:56:02.760 --> 0:56:05.840 a sixty two hundred yard golf course is to say, Okay, 0:56:06.320 --> 0:56:09.480 this is a great course for women, and you guys 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:11.719 can try your luck on it, but you're going to 0:56:11.800 --> 0:56:15.000 find out you're you know, it's not a pushover. 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:19.480 It could be women, women and juniors. You need the 0:56:20.120 --> 0:56:25.600 LPGA Tour to create a TPC sawgrass like course for 0:56:25.880 --> 0:56:27.200 one of their championships. 0:56:28.520 --> 0:56:33.040 Well supposedly they did years ago. Whatever the LPGA International 0:56:33.120 --> 0:56:35.640 is that Reece Jones designed, I've never seen it, but 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:38.160 I don't think it's the course that I'm describing here. 0:56:38.480 --> 0:56:39.719 Probably not. 0:56:39.760 --> 0:56:42.880 I sure, I haven't heard a lot about it. 0:56:44.000 --> 0:56:47.279 So you you touched on Savonic and you've done a 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:52.080 couple co design projects with other firms. You know, how 0:56:52.120 --> 0:56:55.200 tough is it to kind of share a vision with 0:56:55.400 --> 0:56:57.759 another ego on a project. 0:56:59.600 --> 0:57:02.960 It's it's tough, and it's it's different depending on who 0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:06.600 it is, like, you know, Yeah, I mean the two 0:57:06.640 --> 0:57:09.120 projects that I did in Australia, we worked with Mike Clayton, 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:14.440 and that was pretty easy because I was friendly with 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:17.560 Mike going into it. And it's the same by the 0:57:17.600 --> 0:57:20.680 same token, I had more experience than he did at 0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:22.840 that point, so he really deferred to me on a 0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:24.680 lot of stuff. You know, it was more like he 0:57:24.760 --> 0:57:27.640 was a consultant. But at the same time, you know, 0:57:28.200 --> 0:57:31.520 one of the reasons we we entered into that agreement was, 0:57:31.960 --> 0:57:34.960 you know, he had some really strong guys that worked 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:37.080 for him that would help get the golf course built, 0:57:37.360 --> 0:57:39.800 project manage it. You know, one of them was a 0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:42.400 superintendent for years and had been an assistant of Royal 0:57:42.480 --> 0:57:46.080 Melbourne who I really respected a lot. And it's like, 0:57:46.320 --> 0:57:49.040 you know, so you know, he had some team members 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.880 like I had some team members that really fit well together, 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:55.400 so that made it easy. But at the end of 0:57:55.480 --> 0:57:58.200 the day, you know, it's like, you know, he'd give 0:57:58.240 --> 0:58:01.040 a lot of input, but also really isn't my decision 0:58:01.080 --> 0:58:04.480 on what would have got you know, Sabonic was completely different. 0:58:04.720 --> 0:58:06.800 You know, we had to agree from the beginning that 0:58:07.480 --> 0:58:10.280 you know, nothing was finished until we both liked it, 0:58:11.280 --> 0:58:18.840 and you know that meant that Jack, you know, there 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:21.440 were some holes that you know, we tried to do 0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:23.640 some stuff that Jack didn't like, so we'd have to 0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:27.040 keep revising him, which is hard, and there were some 0:58:27.200 --> 0:58:30.240 holes that he wanted to do that you know, I 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:32.320 didn't like it exactly the way it was, and he's 0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:36.000 not hearing that from somebody else. But you know the 0:58:36.080 --> 0:58:39.200 relationship between me and Jack was still pretty good because 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:42.840 that's what we agreed to do and we both understood 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:45.280 going in that that's what we're agreeing to. But the 0:58:45.360 --> 0:58:48.120 hard part was getting our teams seamesh didn't work very well. 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:51.600 I mean on that project. You know, Jim Orbina who 0:58:51.640 --> 0:58:54.640 ran the job with me, and then Brian Schneider and 0:58:55.960 --> 0:58:58.120 Eric and some of the guys that shaped it, they 0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:01.840 had to take like several steps back from the role 0:59:01.920 --> 0:59:05.000 that they're usually involved and the level they're usually involved, 0:59:05.160 --> 0:59:07.439 you know, Like I mean, the cool thing for Eric 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:10.360 or Brian working for me is if they build a 0:59:10.480 --> 0:59:14.320 wild green and I like it, it's done, and it's 0:59:14.360 --> 0:59:17.720 the bonics. It wasn't done, you know, I could like it, 0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:20.000 and then Jack didn't like it, and then it had 0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:23.360 to change and that was hard for them. That's you know, 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:25.400 that's not what they were used to, and that the 0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:27.960 odds that they were going to build a green that 0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:31.120 went that flew through with flame colors and we were 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:34.919 done were a lot lower, so you know, that part 0:59:34.920 --> 0:59:37.120 of it was really tough, and they were just you know, 0:59:37.200 --> 0:59:41.600 there were more politics to that job than most. Again, 0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:44.000 you know, that's what we signed up for, you know. 0:59:44.280 --> 0:59:47.000 And I always said about that project, well, you know, 0:59:47.640 --> 0:59:49.520 other people are going to have to tell me if 0:59:49.520 --> 0:59:51.920 they think this was a good idea to get us 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:55.440 together to design it, because you know, both Jack and 0:59:55.480 --> 0:59:57.080 I are always going to look at it like, oh, 0:59:57.120 --> 1:00:01.680 I would have done something different on Maple, you know. 1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:04.880 And yet and yet it's a pretty good golf course 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:08.320 and it's pasted some big things and gotten a lot 1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:10.600 of acclaim for doing it. So I'm not saying that 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.160 they did it the wrong way, you know, It's just 1:00:13.880 --> 1:00:17.880 it's just it's a different kind of emotional experience to 1:00:18.040 --> 1:00:22.360 doing it. And you know, you know, I don't get 1:00:22.400 --> 1:00:24.760 to go back to some of my own courses and 1:00:24.840 --> 1:00:27.160 enjoy them and play them as often as I'd like. 1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:31.200 But when I do go back to them, I really 1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:33.280 feel good about most of them. You know. It's not 1:00:33.360 --> 1:00:37.120 like I'm kinkering and second guessing myself and you know, 1:00:37.520 --> 1:00:39.800 wanting to go rebuild the Third Green because I just 1:00:39.840 --> 1:00:43.520 don't like the way it turned out, and you know, 1:00:43.760 --> 1:00:45.920 so so in most cases, I can just go back 1:00:45.960 --> 1:00:48.080 and play golf and have fun. And I actually play 1:00:48.120 --> 1:00:50.960 pretty well because I you know, because I'm comfortable with 1:00:51.000 --> 1:00:53.600 all the shots that I got to hit. You know, 1:00:53.640 --> 1:00:56.520 Sabonic is kind of the rare one that when I 1:00:56.560 --> 1:00:59.040 go back, there's still questions about it. And you know, 1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:02.000 even if I'm playing with a friend, they all want 1:01:02.040 --> 1:01:05.400 to know, like, okay, so this is your idea? Is 1:01:05.440 --> 1:01:08.840 this Jack's idea? And it just takes away from the 1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:11.600 fun we normally have building the things. Mm hmm. 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:15.600 That's uh. I imagine it's just got to be so 1:01:15.760 --> 1:01:18.280 tough when both have to sign off on it, and 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:22.440 you know that it's kind of differing design philosophies with 1:01:22.520 --> 1:01:25.520 the with the two firms. I want to I want to. 1:01:25.760 --> 1:01:28.160 I mean partly it's you know, I will say too 1:01:28.240 --> 1:01:30.000 partly it's my fault. I mean, if i'd have known 1:01:30.080 --> 1:01:32.439 Jack Nick, look well at the beginning of the thing, 1:01:33.560 --> 1:01:37.480 I should have said to him, you know, look, don't 1:01:37.480 --> 1:01:39.960 worry that we're going to ignore what you have to say. 1:01:40.400 --> 1:01:42.800 You know, you don't have to babysit us to make 1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:46.600 sure that we're sticking to stick and do things, you know, 1:01:47.000 --> 1:01:49.600 just let us ruffian stuff for you and then come 1:01:49.640 --> 1:01:52.880 out and and you know, tell us all the changes 1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:54.440 you want to make, just like you would to your 1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:59.160 own staff. But you know that course was overstaffed. Yeah, 1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:01.160 we didn't need all you know, we didn't need all 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:03.720 my people and all his people there at the same time. 1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:05.880 That part was the part that didn't work. 1:02:05.920 --> 1:02:09.720 So well, yeah, it's gotta be tough, so