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Speaker 1: Hello, It's Andy Johnson from The Friday Egg. I want

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Speaker 1: to thank everybody for tuning into our podcast. Because of

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Speaker 1: Tom's gracious amount of time he gave us, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: split this podcast into two parts. We will be publishing

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Speaker 1: part two on Friday, so please you know, if you

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Speaker 1: enjoy our podcast, subscribe to us on iTunes and leave

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Speaker 1: us a review. It really helps us out and it's

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Speaker 1: it's greatly appreciated. Thanks and enjoy the podcast with Tom.

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Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

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Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid Egg Friday,

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Speaker 2: the dreaded Friday Friday Frida Bride Egg Lie, I'm about

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Speaker 2: ready to run off the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the

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Speaker 1: Frida Egg podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome Tom Doak

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Speaker 1: onto the podcast. Tom is one of today's pre eminent

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Speaker 1: golf course architects, as well as an esteemed author of

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Speaker 1: books such as The Anatomy of a Golf Course, The

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Speaker 1: Life and Work of Alistair McKenzie, and of course, his

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Speaker 1: ultra popular Confidential Guides to golf courses. Welcome on Tom,

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Speaker 1: Thank you Andy.

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Speaker 2: Nice to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to talk golf course architecture today, and

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Speaker 1: I think a great way to start would be to

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Speaker 1: give the listeners a little bit about your background and

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Speaker 1: how you got into golf course architecture.

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Speaker 2: I certainly told this story a lot, so I'm probably

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Speaker 2: covering around a lot of your listeners have heard. But basically,

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Speaker 2: I you know, I grew up playing a little public

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Speaker 2: course a mile from my house in Stanford, Connecticut. But

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Speaker 2: as a contrast to that, I saw some of the

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Speaker 2: best golf courses in America when I was a kid.

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Speaker 2: My dad barely played golf, but he would go once

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Speaker 2: or twice a year on some corporate thing where he

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Speaker 2: played golf with the people he did business with on

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Speaker 2: the phone all year, and they went to the best

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Speaker 2: golf resorts in America. So I thought that Harbortown was

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Speaker 2: one of the very first courses I ever saw when

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Speaker 2: it was brand new and raided and golfed. I just

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Speaker 2: popped ten, and then Pinehurst not long after that, and

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Speaker 2: then Pebble Beach not long after that, and then unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: one of is one of the organizations that was part

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Speaker 2: of They did their convention at Pebble Beach and they

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Speaker 2: decided they really liked it, so they went back there

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Speaker 2: like every year when I was a teenager, so I

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Speaker 2: played it. I played a couple of each a bunch.

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Speaker 2: You know, long enough ago that the twilight rate was

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Speaker 2: forty bucks.

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Speaker 1: Things have changed a little bit since that day.

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Speaker 2: Huh, yes they have, and I don't you know, and

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Speaker 2: I haven't played it very much since they went up

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Speaker 2: to their current pride.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's uh So would you say, you know

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Speaker 1: a lot of people say they have a singular moment

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Speaker 1: or a golf course that you know, inspires them to

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Speaker 1: get even into, you know, being becoming a fan of

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Speaker 1: golf course architecture. Was there a singular moment or was

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Speaker 1: it more of a building over over your childhood years.

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Speaker 2: I guess it was more of a building. I mean

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Speaker 2: the you know, the two different things that I always

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Speaker 2: go back to, or when when I was at Harbor

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Speaker 2: Town and you know, it was literally the third golf

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Speaker 2: course I ever saw. It was the all writer Charles

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Speaker 2: Price had a place at Hilton Head and when mister

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Speaker 2: Dye was building the golf course, he spent a lot

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Speaker 2: of time with it. And then when the golf course opened,

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Speaker 2: mister Price did a little booklet on the golf course,

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Speaker 2: which is pretty much like a yardage book now, except

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Speaker 2: no yardages because nobody played by yardage is making seventies.

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Speaker 2: But you know, so there was a there was a

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Speaker 2: diagram of the hole and like three sentences on how

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Speaker 2: to play, like second hole. You know, there's only one

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Speaker 2: fairway bunker on the left, but you really need to

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Speaker 2: be close to the fairway bunker on the left if

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Speaker 2: you're trying for the green into because there's a tree

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Speaker 2: up there on the right you have to get pass.

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Speaker 2: You know. It was just a really simple primer on

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Speaker 2: golf course architecture, really well explained, simple enough a ten

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Speaker 2: year old it could go, oh that's cool. So you know,

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Speaker 2: that's the first thing that got me interested in architecture,

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Speaker 2: that there was much more to it than just get

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Speaker 2: the ball, find it, hit it again. Yeah. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, I and pebble Bee in Cyprus Point when

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Speaker 2: I was a kid was huge. You know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I don't feel really lucky to have gotten to go

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Speaker 2: to Cypress Point. Really early on. My dad's boss at Unilever,

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Speaker 2: when he retired, moved out there and became a member

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Speaker 2: of Cyper's Point. So I got to play it two

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Speaker 2: or three times when I was a teenager, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a very emotional place, and you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's probably the place where I thought, you know, that

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Speaker 2: there that this was a great career and it would

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Speaker 2: be a great thing to do if I could figure

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Speaker 2: out how to do it. Although you know, when I

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Speaker 2: started at college, I didn't really know how to pursue it,

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Speaker 2: and I had to, you know, I really had to

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Speaker 2: write letters to everybody in the golf business to ask,

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Speaker 2: you know, what I should do and how to go

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: So after cal you did you start writing? I know

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Speaker 1: you worked under Pete Dye for a number of years.

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Speaker 1: Did he give you the kind of first job right

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Speaker 1: out of college or was there somebody else in between that?

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Speaker 2: Uh No, I didn't work for anybody else. The first

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Speaker 2: job I had was working for mister d on a

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Speaker 2: construction throughout LONGKO when I was twenty. I've been writing

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Speaker 2: in letters for three years at that point, and I started.

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Speaker 2: I started on my eighteenth birthday. I was a freshman

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Speaker 2: of college, thinking, you know, engineering is not for me.

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Speaker 2: I'm spending all my time reading golf books. I really

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Speaker 2: should see if I could pursue this. And Tete I

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Speaker 2: was one of the first people I wrote to, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I you know, I wrote to Petey and Jeff

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Speaker 2: Cornish and Being Demon and Ben Crenshaw and a ton

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Speaker 2: of people just ask him for help, and you know,

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Speaker 2: Pete was Pete got back to me when I was eighteen,

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Speaker 2: just a nice little note back, and you know, he

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Speaker 2: didn't really offer much advice at that point. I got

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Speaker 2: it from other people, but you know, but everybody else

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Speaker 2: in the off business said, you know, that's the guy

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Speaker 2: you should work for. You know, if you can figure

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Speaker 2: out how to get a construction crew working for him,

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Speaker 2: that would be great. So I just kept writing the

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Speaker 2: letters for three years until finally, when I was a

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Speaker 2: junior in college, he called me, like the day I

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Speaker 2: was going on summer break and said, yeah, we kind

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Speaker 2: of cold losing some guys on our crew down here,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we could use a couple more people.

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Speaker 2: Could you be here tomorrow. That was literally the first

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Speaker 2: time I talked to him, and I was working for

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Speaker 2: him the next day.

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Speaker 1: What a What a cool story. So with mister Dye,

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Speaker 1: who were some other influential people early in your career

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Speaker 1: outside of mister Dye that you know you would say

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Speaker 1: that really helped shape your kind of philosophies and your

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Speaker 1: in your career.

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Speaker 2: Oh god, there's a lot, you know. George Pepper, who

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Speaker 2: is the editor of Golf Magazine, is going to give

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Speaker 2: you a chance to start writing about golf. I wrote

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Speaker 2: him a letter to the editor when I was like

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Speaker 2: eighteen or nineteen eighteen because because because I remember it

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Speaker 2: was you know, it was actually about the top fifty

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Speaker 2: golf courses list that they had just published, and it

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Speaker 2: been a laundertique of it. And he got back to

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Speaker 2: me and said, well, you know, enough an eighteen year

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Speaker 2: olds in charge of this, but you can really write,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we could use somebody who could write

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Speaker 2: some stuff about architecture. So you know, do you want

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Speaker 2: to try to write like a little piece of a

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Speaker 2: sidebar to the US Open piece next year? So you know,

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Speaker 2: I started writing when I was sophomore in college, and

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Speaker 2: and by the time when I was a senior, I

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Speaker 2: had a writing for magazine's course and just before the

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Speaker 2: semester was over, I had an eight page feature article

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Speaker 2: in coffee. So I did well in that course, you know,

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Speaker 2: but that was a huge help to me because you know,

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Speaker 2: I because of that, I didn't just have access to

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Speaker 2: people as a young guy who wanted to be a

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Speaker 2: golf course architect. You know, I could call up people

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Speaker 2: in the golf business as a golf writer and and

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Speaker 2: asked them all sorts of questions. So that was great

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Speaker 2: for me for access to people. And then you know

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Speaker 2: Ben Crenshaws. Then you know, I wrote him a letter

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Speaker 2: when I was eighteen and said, if if you know,

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Speaker 2: if you or me, what would you do. And because

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Speaker 2: he you know, even though he hadn't started an architecture, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was pretty well known that he was interested in

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Speaker 2: architecture and tried to see great courses. So you know,

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Speaker 2: at first he listed a few courses that he thought

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Speaker 2: I should see, and then he said, he basically said, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you come out to a turn during

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Speaker 2: a practice day, just just uh, you know, come up

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Speaker 2: and introduce yourself on a practice day and you know

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Speaker 2: we can walk around and talk talk about the golf

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Speaker 2: course a little bit. So I did that four or

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Speaker 2: five times while I was in college, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I got to walk inside the Ropes with Crenshaw and

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Speaker 2: Sevy Biasteros or David Graham and watch them play golf

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Speaker 2: really up close and then talk some about the golf

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Speaker 2: course that we were seeing, and you know, wouldn't trade

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Speaker 2: those experiences for anything.

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Speaker 1: How you know, you've had obviously Stonewall had the US

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Speaker 1: Midam and you know Bandon Dune, Pacific Dunes has had

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Speaker 1: some amateur events and high level amateur events, and then

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Speaker 1: you've you've obviously walked inside the ropes like you just said,

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Speaker 1: with Crenshawe and uh Sevy b by Seros. How much

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Speaker 1: how how much does it help when you get to

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Speaker 1: see that high level golf with architecture and kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, understanding principles and how different people play the game.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a good question, and it's kind of there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways it helps and there's some ways

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Speaker 2: it hurts. I think, you know, because I worked for

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Speaker 2: mister Dye. I was around the tour a lot when

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Speaker 2: I was really young, you know. I worked for him

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Speaker 2: just just when the TPC at Sawgraph came out and

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Speaker 2: they played. I was there for the first two tournaments.

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Speaker 2: They spent a lot of time walking with he die

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Speaker 2: those first two years of the tournament, while he would,

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Speaker 2: you know, while people were criticizing the golf course, and

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Speaker 2: you know, he was just walking around watching play, trying

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Speaker 2: to decide for himself if the holes were the way

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Speaker 2: he thought they did, and they really did. You know,

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Speaker 2: you know, he'd gotten an the skin of the players

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Speaker 2: a lot. And you know, the guys, the guys that

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Speaker 2: were more interested in architecture and more critical of the

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Speaker 2: golfers were so tied up in that that they couldn't

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Speaker 2: play the golfers worth a damn. But then there were

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Speaker 2: young guys that you know, were just sort of okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, I just this is really tough, and I

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Speaker 2: got to hit these shots, and there were guys that

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Speaker 2: could play the golfers. So you know, that was a

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Speaker 2: fascinating time to be around the tour and and and

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Speaker 2: talk to some of those guys and see what their

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Speaker 2: opinions were. You know, when I got on my own,

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Speaker 2: I realized really fast that that you know, when I

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Speaker 2: built High Point in Traverse City for a for a

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Speaker 2: guy that had owned the land for years, you know,

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Speaker 2: the tour was never coming there. You know. I mean

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Speaker 2: I was around the tour enough to understand that, you know,

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Speaker 2: where they play tournaments at that level is about where

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Speaker 2: the sponsors want them to so you know, so you know,

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Speaker 2: I never really visualized that my career would be about

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Speaker 2: that at all. Certainly at the start it wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to be. So you know, I kind of had to

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Speaker 2: forget some of what I've learned and not worry about illness.

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Speaker 2: Set of tea is at seventy four hundred yards because

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Speaker 2: the people that were paying forty five dollars to play

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Speaker 2: High Point didn't need those teas. Yeah, And you know,

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Speaker 2: and because I'd been around the tour a little bit

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Speaker 2: when when early clients would bring up something like that,

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Speaker 2: I could just laugh at them and correct them really that, like, no,

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Speaker 2: don't think about that. You're crazy to think about that

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Speaker 2: unless you've got five million dollars burning a hole in

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Speaker 2: your pocket, in which case, let's revise my design feel

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Speaker 2: a little there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, you were part of, you know,

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Speaker 1: part of kind of the the group of architectures that

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Speaker 1: ushered in this you know, new style of design that

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Speaker 1: was minimalists and really, like you said, focused more on

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Speaker 1: the everyday player and you know what they needed rather

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Speaker 1: than building long, hard golf courses that kind of fit

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Speaker 1: into a square box par seventy to four par five's

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Speaker 1: four par threes. What was you know, the toughest part about,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of ushering in this new thought and

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Speaker 1: new thinking of design.

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Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't. I mean, when I started at high point,

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Speaker 2: you know, I really only had to answer to one client,

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Speaker 2: and I sort of started with the idea that it

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Speaker 2: was a really good piece of l end and if

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Speaker 2: I failed, I wanted to fail on the side of

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Speaker 2: you know, moving less dirt instead of moving too much,

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Speaker 2: because everything I'd seen for the last ten years with

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Speaker 2: people moving too much by my but for my case,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean, by then I got around and

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Speaker 2: seeing most of the best golf courses in the world,

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Speaker 2: and most of the ones I really liked weren't built

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Speaker 2: that way, you know. I mean, and I saw how

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Speaker 2: Pete Died built what he built, and I'm not demeaning

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Speaker 2: it by I mean, he's a genius for coming up

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Speaker 2: with some of the things he did on bad pieces

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Speaker 2: of ground. But when you got a good piece of ground,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to do those things. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I was really lucky to stumble into my first job

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Speaker 2: with a pretty good piece of ground to work with,

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Speaker 2: and I just thought, you know that, I mean, sort

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Speaker 2: of the guiding light of it was that three miles

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Speaker 2: down the road from High Point was a Jack Nicholas

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Speaker 2: course called the Bear at Grand Traverse Resort, and it

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Speaker 2: was a completely manufactured golf course. They went out in

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Speaker 2: the field and built a bunch of nouns and lakes

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Speaker 2: and everything else and called it Scottish style, which just

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Speaker 2: you know, horrified me. But you know, I just kept thinking,

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Speaker 2: you know, I want to do something that's almost the

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Speaker 2: dead opposite of that on this piece of ground and

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Speaker 2: just see how it goes. And you know, the superintendent

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Speaker 2: that we hired to work on a Tommy who had

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Speaker 2: been at Crystal Downs for a while before he worked

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Speaker 2: with me. You know, he and I were talking about

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Speaker 2: at that point, you know, we were young, and it's

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Speaker 2: sort of like, well, if fifty percent of people like

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Speaker 2: it and fifty percent of people hate it, then will

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Speaker 2: be about the right place. And of course we didn't

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Speaker 2: tell our clients that because the client probably would have

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Speaker 2: been horrified. You know, most clients like ninety nine point

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Speaker 2: nine percent of people to like it. They don't want

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Speaker 2: to give up a potential custom, you know, and unfortunately

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Speaker 2: that's you know, that's why everything gets so homaged. We'd

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Speaker 2: better do four part three because that's what people like.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the old golf course architects didn't think

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Speaker 2: that way. It hadn't been so standardized yet. And plus

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Speaker 2: they you know, it wasn't such a commercial business in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties. I mean, golf clubs in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenties were actually formed by a group of guys that

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Speaker 2: wanted to build a gos club. Now they're formed by

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Speaker 2: a developer who wants to sell memberships in it. Even

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Speaker 2: if he's not really looking to make money in it,

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Speaker 2: he's still concerned about you know, he's taken the financial

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Speaker 2: risk and he's got to figure out how to sell

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Speaker 2: the memberships in it to get his money back. So

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Speaker 2: you know, he doesn't want to rock the boat too much.

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Speaker 2: And that's you know a lot of architects are really

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Speaker 2: afraid to rock the boat. And I'm just not because

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Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of things that are really different

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Speaker 2: and I know they worked, and and I think, well,

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Speaker 2: why can't I make that same idea work, or why

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Speaker 2: can't I make a little different idea work.

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Speaker 1: It's it's interesting you you talk about that, and I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: You know. Obviously with Cyprus Point, I know Alistair McKenzie

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Speaker 1: was worried that he had gone too far and you know,

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Speaker 1: done too much and worried that it was going to

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Speaker 1: be too tough. But the natural beauty obviously nobody complained

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Speaker 1: about it. Do you feel that you your golf course

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Speaker 1: when you when you build something and looking at it,

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Speaker 1: you know, for the future of golf, you know, twenty

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Speaker 1: years said do you need to have do you feel

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Speaker 1: like you need to have criticism from some some angle

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Speaker 1: if if it's a great project, does it have to

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Speaker 1: have some sort of criticism?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know. I just you know, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: have to. But I'm not afraid of it. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that's and that's having you know, having been around

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Speaker 2: Pete die for that week of stagraph, I'm not afraid

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Speaker 2: of that because that it'll never get more intense than that.

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Speaker 2: And that was and ultimately that was good for god.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep, it's uh, he did it great stuff. I

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Speaker 1: think that Uh, Pete Dye often gets a very bad rap,

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Speaker 1: you know when people talk about his designs. Being too

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Speaker 1: penal and you having a you know, a front row

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Speaker 1: seat to that. I imagine a lot of the design philosophy.

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Speaker 1: Some of his designs were based off of what the

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Speaker 1: developer wants correctly.

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Speaker 2: Well, they always thought, yeah, I mean, you're always you've

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Speaker 2: always got to answer to your client to some degree.

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Speaker 2: And you know a lot of people, you know, when

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Speaker 2: people criticize what other architects are doing, you know that

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Speaker 2: you have to stop and think, well, what are they

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Speaker 2: being hired to do? You know, I mean most of

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Speaker 2: the projects that Jack Nicholas gets, you know, the developer

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Speaker 2: wants a big, expensive, quote unquote championship golf course because

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Speaker 2: he's trying to sell big expensive lots next to it.

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Speaker 2: And that's what those people think. They you know, that's

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Speaker 2: what they think is prestige and what they want to

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Speaker 2: live on. So, you know, if you're not going to

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Speaker 2: see Jack Nicholas build a sixty three hundred yard minimalist

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Speaker 2: efficient golf course, because that's that's not the kind of

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Speaker 2: people that hire him, you know, you know he you

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Speaker 2: know a lot of people are very critical of mister due,

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Speaker 2: which to me is crazy. I mean, nobody that's ever

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Speaker 2: spent any time with the die would criticize the man

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Speaker 2: at all. I mean, he's He's given a lot to

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Speaker 2: a lot of people. He's always been very open about

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Speaker 2: the game and what he thinks is right about it

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Speaker 2: and what he thinks is wrong about it. You know,

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Speaker 2: he had me ghostwriting articles about how the golf equipment

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Speaker 2: was getting out of hand thirty years ago. That more

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Speaker 2: than thirty years ago. You know, he's still sort of

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Speaker 2: a role model to me, especially in the way he

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Speaker 2: went about the work, how involved he was in it personally,

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Speaker 2: and and that you know, he made decisions out in

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Speaker 2: the field and he changed it. He changed his mind

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Speaker 2: on the fly to make something better. He wasn't afraid to,

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Speaker 2: you know, do that. And you know, even if even

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Speaker 2: if the client was nervous about it, and it's like

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be fine. I'm here, I'll get it sorted out.

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Speaker 2: And you know, people see our work as being completely

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Speaker 2: different because my golf courses don't look like his golf courses,

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Speaker 2: but you know, the way that they're built, and you know,

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Speaker 2: and even a lot of the philosophy behind them. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm building golf courses that are challenging to people, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I just I just put the challenge in

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Speaker 2: different places and they don't make it all about length

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Speaker 2: because I'm not building golf courses for the tour, yep.

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Speaker 1: I think I think that the tour needs more golf

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Speaker 1: courses where the challenge isn't you know, off the tee,

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got hazards on both sides, and then

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Speaker 1: hit it to the green because it produces a certain

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Speaker 1: type of player, you know, a golf course does.

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Speaker 2: There's there's no doubt that the Tour tour courses and

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Speaker 2: the way they set up the courses favor certain kinds

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Speaker 2: of players. And you know they're not doing it deliberately,

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Speaker 2: but but it's but they do it. But they they

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Speaker 2: do make deliberate decisions that have that effect, you know,

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Speaker 2: like they'll set up a hole so if you know,

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Speaker 2: they'll set up a hole so the long hitters can

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Speaker 2: make a carry and the short hitters release mh you know,

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Speaker 2: and they think that rewards the guy who can hit

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Speaker 2: the ball farther. But then if the if the wins

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Speaker 2: in the face of that hole and the long hitters

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Speaker 2: can't make the carry, they'll move the teasa so that

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Speaker 2: the long hitter can still make the carry and the

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Speaker 2: short hitters still can't. So now who are they? You know,

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Speaker 2: now it's clear they have a bias.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 2: You know, any short hitter on tour will tell you that.

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Speaker 1: I think a perfect example of that is is you

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Speaker 1: look at Riviera and you know, probably the best architecture,

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Speaker 1: architecturally sound golf course that they play year and year out.

398
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Speaker 1: And you know, they haven't had a winner at Riviera

399
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Speaker 1: younger than twenty eight years old in the last I

400
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Speaker 1: think twelve years. And it favors somebody that understand. I

401
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: think that course has no force carries. It's more about

402
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Speaker 1: hitting shots to the correct angles than it is hitting

403
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Speaker 1: it far. You know, there is a lot of strategy

404
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Speaker 1: if you go for a carry and you don't, you

405
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Speaker 1: know there there's so much that goes into that golf course.

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Speaker 1: And I really think that's a great example. You see

407
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Speaker 1: guys like last year you had kJ Toy, you know,

408
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Speaker 1: in the lead late on Sunday and this is a

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Speaker 1: forty five year old who hits it, you know, two

410
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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy yards. And this year you have Dustin

411
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Speaker 1: Johnson when it albeit it was soft and you know,

412
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Speaker 1: the rain took a lot of the teeth out of it.

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Speaker 1: But you know, that's a course where it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: favor a specific type of player.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I guess it doesn't favor a specific

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Speaker 2: type of player. It does reward a player who knows

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Speaker 2: how to work the ball left to right and right

418
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Speaker 2: to left, which you don't. There's not any courses on

419
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Speaker 2: tour that do anymore. It's really hard to build that

420
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Speaker 2: on a new course with no you know, if you

421
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Speaker 2: don't have any trees, you know, and you can, you know,

422
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Speaker 2: and you can carry the ball as far as those

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Speaker 2: guys do. You know, even if the fairway is curve

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Speaker 2: and left to right or right the left, or the

425
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Speaker 2: bunkers are set up a certain way, you know, they

426
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Speaker 2: can just hit it a mile in the air and

427
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Speaker 2: land it three hundred yards away in a relatively small

428
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Speaker 2: area and it doesn't matter which way it's curving. But

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Speaker 2: you know, Riviera takes that away, the results that you

430
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Speaker 2: can't hit that. You know, you you know, if if

431
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Speaker 2: you're on fifteen, which kind of bends left to right

432
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Speaker 2: off the tee, and you're you can't hit that shot,

433
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: you kind of have to back off on the te

434
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: side because if you just you know, because you can't

435
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 2: take it up over the trees on the right to

436
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: to go down there where you want to. You know,

437
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: there's certain shots that takes away from you uncertain hole,

438
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 2: and so you have to be able to adapt. You know,

439
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 2: Dustin Johnson can't adapt. You know, even if he's even

440
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 2: if he's not going to try to hit the ball

441
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: left to right, he'll he'll back off and he's still

442
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 2: long enough he can hit the long shot into the

443
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: green for the second shot.

444
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: So I had Michael Clayton on the podcast a couple

445
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: of months ago, and he talked about how he believes

446
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: technology has diminished the skill. And obviously, you know, nobody's

447
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: going to argue it's it's altered the path or the design.

448
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: You know, you designed your first course in nineteen ninety

449
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: or nineteen eighty nine. How would you How have your

450
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: philosophy has changed over the years because of technology.

451
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 2: It My philosophy hasn't changed very much in thirty years.

452
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: You know.

453
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: And some people would say, oh, you shouldn't say something

454
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: stuff like that. That doesn't sound right, But you know again,

455
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not building my courses for the elite players.

456
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: I mean, I think about the elite players. I've been

457
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: around enough of them, you know, Mike Clayton. I've had

458
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: more fun playing golf with Mike Clayton at half a

459
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: dozen times than with almost anybody I've ever played with,

460
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: because he, you know, he does know how to work

461
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: the ball and half shots. You know. He came to

462
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: the state a bunch of years ago when I was

463
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: doing that Park of Palooza thing. We were going out

464
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 2: to sand Hills. We stopped and played a couple of

465
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: the other courses in the sand Hills on the way out,

466
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: and one of them, that Bayside course that Dan Proctor

467
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: and Dave Exlent built, had some really severe holes. And

468
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: there was a hole that was a little like Sticked

469
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: at Riviera with a bunker in the middle of a green,

470
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: except more slope around it, and the pin was like

471
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: back right, And after we'd all at a shot to

472
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: the green, I was like, I wonder if you could

473
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 2: hit a shot you know that's that green looks though severe.

474
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: It's like you could land a ball on the upper

475
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: tier behind the pin or behind the bunker and have

476
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: it sucked back down around the bunker to the lower

477
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 2: tier where the tin is and you know, It took

478
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: Mike two tries to hit that shot. And and you know,

479
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: there's a lot of guys on tour that could they

480
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: can hit those kind of shot and the shots that

481
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: Sevy used to try to play and the shots that

482
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: Ben Crenshaw used to play all the time. But there's

483
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: no percentage in it anymore. You know, nobody builds the

484
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: golf course where I mean, you know, that wasn't you know,

485
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: that wasn't really the high percentage shot for Mike at

486
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: the time. It was just like, yeah, I could pull

487
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: that off. And it's a shame we don't see courses

488
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: that that get them to try those shots, because they're

489
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 2: really you know, that's what I learned from Pete die

490
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 2: and watching the TPC. Those guys are way more talented

491
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: than you get to see week to week.

492
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think then, but for my own work.

493
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: You know, my own work will give them fancies to

494
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: hit shots like that. But I'm just not worried about

495
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: whether they're going to shoot sixty four when they come

496
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: because I don't have, you know, because there's not going

497
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: to be a seventy two hole PGA Tour stroke play

498
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 2: event on this course, and because and you know, and

499
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: I don't have any ego at stake over what they do.

500
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: You know, Gary Woodland went to Dismal River a couple

501
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: of years ago, thinking you should you should play on Sescu.

502
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: The week before he went to Chambers Bay for the

503
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: Open and shot fifty nine one day on my course,

504
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: And you know, that kind of boggles my mind. And

505
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: at the same time, I'm like, yeah, you know, he's

506
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: that good if he gets a going. You know, those

507
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: aren't the most severe greens I ever built. He's reaching

508
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: the par fives into no problem. Yeah, and probably driving

509
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: one of the par fours too. So yes, he could

510
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: shoot a number like that, plays a great round of golf,

511
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: and that does That doesn't really bother me, you know.

512
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: And the thing is, the thing is I think if

513
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: you asked and you'd say, oh, no, that was a

514
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: great round and I had a lot of fun, And

515
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: it's not like I wasn't challenged. Yes, it's just that

516
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: the you know, the number adds up to what it

517
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: adds up.

518
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: But it's well, I think that's a huge problem with golf.

519
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: Is this Why why are we so wrapped up with

520
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: par It's just it's just a number, Like who cares

521
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: if you go out and shoot sixty three or eighty three,

522
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: as long as you had fun, you know, right, and you.

523
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: Know you could go you know, you could go different

524
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: directions with that. Like you know, I went and saw

525
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: David Kid's course at Gamble Sands a couple of years ago,

526
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: and I, you know, I had heard about it that

527
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: you know, kind of as a reaction to some of

528
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: the other things that he'd done that that were critiqued

529
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: pretty heavily, including by me, that you know, he'd built

530
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: a golf course that was you know, it was big

531
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 2: and pretty, but it was pretty easy, you know, Like

532
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: I mean in golf club at last, you know, the

533
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: first testimonial to have like five of the eight guys

534
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: in my group had their career low score. And I'm like, well,

535
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: that sounds crazy. You know, if it's really if it's

536
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: really that easy that that you know, everybody's shooting their

537
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: career low score, then you know, because I still you know,

538
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: I worked for Petei. I still believe that you want

539
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: to challenge the golfer. I don't believe that you want

540
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: to make them shoot one hundred and twelve, but you

541
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: want some shots out there that are challenging to him.

542
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: And if if you're doing that, then they're probably not

543
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: shooting their career low score the first time they see

544
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: the place. Yes, and you know there is a fine

545
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: you know, there's a fine line. I mean, you know,

546
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things I've learned about design is,

547
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of my best work

548
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: is is the power four, especially the short par fours.

549
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: And the reason the short part four has come out

550
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: so good is because because you can get away with more.

551
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's like it's only three hundred and fifty yards,

552
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: so this green can be severe or that's you know,

553
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: I can pinch the landing area really narrow, or I

554
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: can put cross bunkers forty yards in front of the

555
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: greens because you know, because I'm not making you lay

556
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: up off the tee and hit a fourwood in you know,

557
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: you can approach this a whole different a whole bunch

558
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: of different ways. And the other thing that's interesting about

559
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: short part four is is you know, you can give

560
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: people a really wide range of angles into the green.

561
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: You know, a four hundred and seventy yard hole. Most people,

562
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: you know, they just have to hit it on the

563
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: line because they have to hit it as far as

564
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: they can twice just to get there, and they can't

565
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: really worry about what kind of angle they're giving themselves.

566
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: But a three hundred and fifty yard hole, yeah, you

567
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: can drive it way out to the right and still

568
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: be hitting nine er in their witch. Yeah.

569
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: From what I've I've played about seven of your courses,

570
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: and the short part fours are really great, and they

571
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: what I really like about them is if you play

572
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: them correctly, you've got a great shot at you know,

573
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: you've you should make birdie. But if you the second

574
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: you get out of position, you're you're in a very

575
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: very difficult place where all of a sudden you're looking

576
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: at it and like, well, I have to hit a

577
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: really great shot here to make you know, A have

578
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: a chance at three and even make four sometimes depending

579
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: on how how far out of position you get. Now

580
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: to mention you know, you have so many different ways

581
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: you could play it. One that comes to mind is

582
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: stream song. Is it thirteen thirteen at stream song or

583
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: fourteen thirteen? Uh huh? And that one I got into

584
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: the I tried to hit driver and I got into

585
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: the left bunker and oh my god, I was just

586
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: in the worst place in the world, and I think

587
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: I just picked up my ball after after about seven shots.

588
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: Well, you know that hole is that whole is kind

589
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: of loosely based on and that's a loosely based on

590
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: sixth at Pacific Dunes. It's one of those it's the

591
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: only hole extream song that we had to do a

592
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: lot of earthwork on that hole. I mean, it was

593
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: kind of the fairway was a lot higher than it

594
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: is now, and it was you couldn't you couldn't even

595
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: see where the water was coming in on the left

596
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: because the fairway was so high you couldn't see over

597
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 2: it and see that there was a really steep and

598
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: there there was like a really steep, dangerous edge to

599
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: the left side. So we kind of had to cut

600
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: it down to make it, to make it where you

601
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: could get people around the golf course without somebody driving

602
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: a car over a cliff by accident. And you know,

603
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: and and you know, Bill Gore needed the dirt from

604
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: that fairway for for one of the teas that he

605
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: wanted to build, so we just, you know, we just

606
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: moved all the dirt over to his hole and you know,

607
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: just whittled away at the fairway until we got it down.

608
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: But but I was trying to think of, Okay, how

609
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: do I do a short par four with a fair

610
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,239
Speaker 2: way down in the green up? And you know, I

611
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: think six it. Pacific is one of the best poles

612
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: that I've built. So it's the only it's the only

613
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: hole I've tried to copy that that basic idea from

614
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: for for this hole as well. I mean, the difference

615
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: is the one that streams Song is even a little shorter,

616
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: and you're usually not playing it right into the teeth

617
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: of the wind these you know, Pacific, it's into the

618
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: wind most of the time, So you know, driving the

619
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: green is not really you know, you could drive it

620
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: up and near there somewhere, but if the wind is

621
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: in your face, you're not going to drive the green.

622
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: You're to pro Yeah, to pros are going to do

623
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: it that much stream song. You can really take a

624
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: shot at it if you want. I mean, it's it's

625
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: a hell of a rip. I've never hit driver in

626
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: that hole myself. I haven't played it a lot of times,

627
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: but you know, I'm not going to take the bait

628
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: on that particular hole because I know, because I know

629
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: how many things can go wrong. And a friend of

630
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: mine as says that on my short part Furs, you

631
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: should just never take the beat, no matter how tempting

632
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 2: it looks. You know, this would be an easy birdie

633
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 2: if I just do this that that's usually a bad

634
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: play at least for them percentage wise. And you know,

635
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: and that's kind of what you're trying to do. Yeah,

636
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean, you're you're at least trying to make it

637
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: where the guy who is, you know, going for something

638
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: has taken a big risk to do it. Well, you know,

639
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: if you could, if you could drive it anywhere and

640
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: still make birdie all the time, then that's not a

641
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: very good hole.

642
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: I agree, And I mean I walked off the hole

643
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, why the hell did you

644
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: just hit driver when you can just hit a four

645
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: iron right here and you've got a wedgend. And I

646
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: think that's a great way though, That's a great subtle

647
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: way to challenge, you know, the better player is to

648
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: give them something that entices them to hit driver, because

649
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: they every every really good player thinks they can hit

650
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: driver where they want it if they really need to.

651
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: And you know, and they and they think that they

652
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: should be entitled to hit driver on every single longer hole.

653
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: You know, I've heard that cruisism a bunch from from

654
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: good players. Don't take the driver out of my hands,

655
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: and I don't just make it like a stupid play

656
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: sometimes that you can hit it. I'm not making you

657
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: lay up. You better hit a good shot if you

658
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 2: do it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really important

659
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 2: part of golf. And you know the tough part about

660
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: doing that though, and the reason you don't see every

661
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: other architect doing the same thing is because it's not

662
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: always popular to do that. You know, you walked off

663
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: and think, you know, I've learned something about architecture. But

664
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: a lot of like low handicapped guys are going to

665
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: make you know, they make eight in a short part

666
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: for they hate the whole and they might hate the

667
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 2: whole golf course as a result of fact, and they're

668
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: not going to go back and play it the second

669
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: time and figure it out. So and then the client

670
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: is nervous about that. So there's a lot of and

671
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: the architect is nervous about that because he wants to

672
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: win some award and he doesn't want good players to

673
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: go around telling him he's building unfair of golf courses.

674
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: It's really bad for business. So there's a lot of

675
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: guys that just shy away from building things like that

676
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: that might be controversial. And again, I mean, I've just

677
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 2: been you know, I've just been trained from day one

678
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: not to be afraid of any of that. You know

679
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: that that's that actually makes the golf course better in

680
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,479
Speaker 2: the long run, provided you have the confidence that people

681
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: are going to come back, you know. And yeah, you

682
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: have to have some confidence. And you know where I

683
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: am now, it's a little easier to have that confidence.

684
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: People will give me the benefit of the doubt and

685
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 2: you know, but but you know, I only got there

686
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: because I've been doing it from the start. You know,

687
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: even when I was risking my career, I was building

688
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: those kinds of holes.

689
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: So which, uh, which of your projects are you most

690
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: proud of? You know, it doesn't have to necessarily be

691
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: the best one or the highest rated one, but what

692
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: what one are you most proud of? And why?

693
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm gonna I don't give the politically

694
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: correct the answer that they're all my children, but you know,

695
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: I'm proud of a lot of them. I mean, you know,

696
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: we've worked on some great projects and you know, and

697
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: you know, not just me, but the guys that work

698
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 2: for me a ton of time on them, trying to

699
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: get them right, and I think they've come out really good.

700
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: And you know, still picking one between specific dunes and

701
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: barn Google and you know, and then some places like

702
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: Creek that aren't as well known, or Stone Eagle that

703
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: was really hard to build. But you know, if it's

704
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: not everybody's cup of tea, you know, I'm proud of

705
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: all of those, you know, to some extent, I'm just

706
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: as proud of something like Common Ground that we build

707
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: a public course that people can play for forty bucks,

708
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: especially considering some of the programs that they've come up

709
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 2: with to not just encourage golf, to encourage public golf

710
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 2: and encourage youth golf there. But you know, we managed

711
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: to build them a little kids course on the side

712
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: for free for you know what we saved up during

713
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 2: the construction budget by building it as as efficiently as

714
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: we could. And they, you know, they've used it for

715
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: all kinds of school programs. And then then one of

716
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: the one of the people involved with the Evans Scholarships

717
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 2: in Colorado decided to like start like a a caddy

718
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: camp and leadership academy on it so that they they

719
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: train the kids, the local kids in the neighborhood and

720
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: kids that they bust in to be caddies, and they

721
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: subsidize it so you want, they pay They pay the

722
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: caddy a little bit out of their fund so that

723
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: you only have to pay twenty five dollars to take

724
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: a caddy. It doesn't cost any more in a golf

725
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 2: cart wood. And then and then by by letting these

726
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 2: kids caddy, if the caddy more than like twenty rounds

727
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: in the summer, they're eligible to apply for the Evans Scholarship. Yeah,

728
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: so that, you know, I'm really proud of that for entirely,

729
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: you know, for reasons they have nothing to do with

730
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: golf course architecture or my egos. You know, it's just

731
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,479
Speaker 2: nice to work for clients that try to do cool

732
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: things for golf links. Yeah.

733
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: I think that is an emerging trend in the industry.

734
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: What we're starting to see is, you know, with places

735
00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: like winter Park golf course and and common Ground where

736
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: there's these new you know, municipality run golf courses that

737
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: are less expensive and you know, one of the things

738
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: I think is interesting is that you know everybody and

739
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: likes to go. They don't really know the names of architecture,

740
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: and you you've established a great intern program. I'd be curious,

741
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: you know, if you were running a municipality and you

742
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: could hire you know, if you could put five guys

743
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: on a list of who you'd want to hire to

744
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 1: do a lower cost renovation of a of a golf course,

745
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: who would they be?

746
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: Are? Now I have to be playing correctice. You're asking

747
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: me to pick between like fifteen guys that that have

748
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: worked for me at various times, and and I've you know,

749
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: and I've helped train that are all really talented, you know,

750
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: including three guys you know, including three or four that

751
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: still work for me on my payroll, where talented as anything.

752
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the hardest thing about my company

753
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 2: is that, you know, I always envisioned that the guys would,

754
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: you know, the young people that we brought in, you know,

755
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: would event you would want to move through and then

756
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: try to get out on their own, you know, like

757
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: I did when I worked for you know, I worked

758
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: for Pete Die for like four years, and and there

759
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 2: wasn't really a way to keep working for Pete Dye

760
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: He didn't really keep a payroll. He just moved from

761
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 2: one project to the next, and they were all over

762
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: and you know, you just had to pick up and

763
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: move to the next one when you were done with one.

764
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: So it wasn't you know, it was a business model

765
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: where the employees were it was they were intended to

766
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: kind of burn out after a while and then you'd

767
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: find new people to replace them. You know. He gave

768
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: a lot of people a chance that way, and I've

769
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: tried to do the same thing. But you know, when

770
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: the when the recession happened and all of a sudden

771
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: it was really hard to get a job. Then, you know,

772
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: nobody wants to leave and try to go on their own.

773
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: And that was you know, that was a really tough

774
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: thing in my company, having to downsize a little bit

775
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 2: and try to figure out who's stayed and who laughed,

776
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 2: you know, And I tried to do it in a way.

777
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: You know, I kind of kicked the senior guys out

778
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: of the nest, which was very controversial, but I knew

779
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: they could make it on their own by then, and

780
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: I knew the other guys couldn't. And you know, and

781
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: by that point, you know, the younger guys were the

782
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: ones that were on the machine shape and the stuff.

783
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 2: And to me, that's the most important part of the

784
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: whole deal. You know, if you're if you're really good

785
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: at that, you will always have work in this business.

786
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: And you know, and that's one of the great things

787
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: about my internship program, all these young guys that have

788
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: worked for me, If I don't have, you know, I mean,

789
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 2: I don't want to be so busy, you know, I

790
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: don't want to be gone three hundred and sixty five

791
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: days a year so that they can all stay busy.

792
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 2: You know. I just I can only do so many

793
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: projects a year without losing my mind, you know, getting

794
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: too frazzled trying to do too many things. So a

795
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 2: lot of these guys, you know, especially with you know,

796
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: with Eric Iverson and Brian Swonik and Brian Schneider who

797
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: still work for me, I mean, all the young guys

798
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: that have worked for us, know that it's going to

799
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: be hard to ever, you know, get past them and

800
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: root one of them out. I mean they you know,

801
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: they're like still young and enthusiastic guys with like fifteen

802
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 2: years experience on the equipment. Who can you know, build

803
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: anything you want at the snap of a finger. So

804
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: you know, so all the young people that come through

805
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: see that, see the writing on the wall that they're

806
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: either going to have to go on their own or

807
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: they're going to have to go work for somebody else eventually,

808
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, when we're not so busy, but they are,

809
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: you know, they're you know. The cool thing is that

810
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: nearly every good project in the last fifteen years, no

811
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: matter who the architect is, there's like one or two

812
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: guys that that worked for me for a while that

813
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: have helped build it, you know, and you know, and

814
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: because we've had success, and because a lot of architects

815
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: are curious about how we do things. You know, having

816
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: worked on barn Google Dunes or Pacific Dunes or Dismal

817
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: River or wherever is a pretty good thing to have

818
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: on your resume. And you know, some other architect will

819
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: want you to work on his project so he can

820
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: try to get a little bit of as knowledge into it.

821
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: M that's uh, it's it's true, and I think you're

822
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: on the right kind of philosophy. The best boss I

823
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: ever had told me that, you know, part of being

824
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: a boss is always trying to make uh, you know,

825
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: you're the people that report to you end up being

826
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: better at your job than you are.

827
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And it's you know, it's it's a weird

828
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: thing because I you know, I mean, I'm a very

829
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 2: hands on person, and you know, I'm still kind of

830
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: resistant to the fact that you know, I've graduated to

831
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: the point where I'm not at sean time on my

832
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: own projects. You know. I mean I went out and

833
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: walked with's left of high point with somebody the other

834
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 2: day and said to them, well, you know, the special

835
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: thing about this is this is the only one of

836
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: these courses that I built all these creams myself, and

837
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm not saying they're better than the

838
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 2: ones that my guys are doing with me. Now we're

839
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: turning out great work now too. But I you know,

840
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 2: it was different because it was all me and and

841
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed that part of the business. And you know,

842
00:46:54,440 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm not good, you know, I'm bulldozer to justify. I mean,

843
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: I clearly got tons of people around about when I

844
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 2: did it at a high point place that you know,

845
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 2: a lot of times I didn't even know exactly where

846
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: I was going when I was when I when I

847
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: would get on and start building green. But you know,

848
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: I knew when to jump off because it'll look good.

849
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: And that's a really different process than what everybody imagines

850
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: we do, is that you know, we have an exact

851
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: idea of what this green is going to look like,

852
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: you know, when we're chomping around in the trees before

853
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 2: we ever start building a golf course. I mean, I

854
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 2: don't have that all figured out in my mind. You know,

855
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: that's the fun part. That's that's what makes going to

856
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: work every day exciting, is you know, figuring it out

857
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: and making it better as you go.

858
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've done a ton of restorations, you know,

859
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: of a lot of classic golf courses. What's what would

860
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: you say is the most difficult thing about doing a

861
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: restoration versus designing a course? And you know some of

862
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: the key differences.

863
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 2: Oh, by far, the most difficult thing is is dealing

864
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: with big committees or you know, hundreds of members as

865
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 2: your client instead of one guy. You know, because because

866
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 2: I've never I've never worked for any club where everybody

867
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: was really on the same page. There are all sorts

868
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: of factions and differences of opinion as to you know,

869
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 2: what direction they should be going and they're looking to

870
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: you for advice, but there's always going to be people

871
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: that disagree with you. And you know, and that's you know,

872
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: I've been really lucky and the golf courses that's done

873
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 2: by myself. You know, I haven't worked for you know,

874
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 2: I imagine that dealing with you know, having a municipal project,

875
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 2: you could run into that same problem. You know, you're

876
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 2: dealing with a committee. I've only I've built thirty five

877
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: new courses and and only once I dealt with a committee.

878
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: Nearly always I had like one person that I answered to,

879
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: And that's just you know, that's great because if you

880
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 2: you know, if you you know, as long as they're

881
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: okay with what you're doing, then you don't have to

882
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 2: worry about what else, what else you're doing when you've

883
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 2: got you know, when you got a bunch of members

884
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: and they want to know all the details. You know,

885
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: the one person client, he could be comfortable with the

886
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: fact that you don't know everything. Right after that, m

887
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,399
Speaker 2: you know, other than that, I mean, you know, where

888
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: I think where I think a lot of restoration renovation

889
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 2: work goes wrong is you know, not so much the idea,

890
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: but the execution. I mean, you know, in theory, if

891
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: it's really a restoration project, and no matter what architects hired,

892
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: they should be telling you the same thing. Between fis,

893
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 2: here's what the golf course was, here's what we should

894
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: be trying to go back. But there, you know, there's

895
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: there's varying interpretations of what restoration means. You know, does

896
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: it mean putting back exactly what was there in nineteen

897
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 2: twenty six, or does it mean well, technology changed and

898
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: we all hit the bone so much farther now that

899
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 2: you know we're going to we're going to make it

900
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: play the same, but we got to stretch it out

901
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: and move the fairway bunkers to different places and all that.

902
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 2: You know, that's not the way I advise clubs most

903
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: of the time. But but you know, that's a different interpretation.

904
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: So you do have different ideas on what restoration is.

905
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: But ultimately, when you're rebuilding something, you know, ideally you'd

906
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,720
Speaker 2: just be doing the work that really needs to happen.

907
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: Like you don't have to rebuild a hundred fairway bucks,

908
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, and I have to rebuild every bunker on

909
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: this golf course. You just have to rebuild sun and then,

910
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: you know, but you can only do that if you're

911
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 2: good enough to make the new and look indistinguishable from

912
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 2: the stuff that was built fifty years ago. And there's

913
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: not that many people that are good at that, you know,

914
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: when you when you when you do it the normal

915
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: way and get it out to a contractor, they're not

916
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 2: good at that, and they don't have that much incentive

917
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 2: at being good at that. They just you know, their

918
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: contractors to build a bunker and get it done as

919
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 2: fast as they can and not have to tinker around

920
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 2: with it so much because they make more money that way. Yeah,

921
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: and you know, and we just you know, I've got

922
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 2: the guys who can get on the equipment and shape

923
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 2: it and make it look like it fits, and you know,

924
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 2: and our incentive is all about getting it right, however

925
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 2: long it takes. And you know, that's what our clients want. Yeah.

926
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: It's so you've got the Loop opening this year, which

927
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: is a reversible course. If anybody hasn't heard of it,

928
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: you can play it's essentially two different golf courses of

929
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: eighteen greens that you can play a different direction each day.

930
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 2: Right, It's it's an eighteen old golf course that every

931
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: other day you play at the backwards down in eighteen stairways,

932
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: in the seventeen stairway and all the way back around,

933
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: and then the next day you play it forwards and

934
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,240
Speaker 2: then and then you also did the Sheep Ranch out

935
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: in Bandon Dunes, where.

936
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: It's essentially you put the ball on the ground and

937
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: you tee it to different greens. I love this concept.

938
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: What are some other kind of innovative concepts that you've

939
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: you've got that you would love to try out?

940
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: Well, I don't say I've got a bunch, you know,

941
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: not not all of them are like groundbreaking innovation. And

942
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 2: you know, the reversible golf course wasn't my Yeah, that's

943
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: something I read about in Tom Simpson's book when I

944
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: was like sixteen years old and just thought that's a

945
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: cool idea. I'd love to do something like that today.

946
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: It just took me off a long long time to

947
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: find the right place to do it. So some of

948
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: the things that I'm thinking about, I don't know if

949
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: I'll ever get a chance to do it. But there

950
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 2: are there's a few different kinds of projects that I'd

951
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 2: like to do. You know. One one that I'll put

952
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: out there that I've tried to sell to one or

953
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 2: two clients and they've they've shrugged it off, and like, no, no, no,

954
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: we don't want to do anything like that. I would

955
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: like to build a golf course that's tailored to women.

956
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: You know, it's not just like has a good set

957
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: of women's teeth, but it's you know, it's it's sixty

958
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: three hundred yards max. Because that's the longest the LTGA

959
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,919
Speaker 2: player would want to play it, and it goes down

960
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: from there. You know, that would be an entirely different experience,

961
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, like I've spent a couple of

962
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 2: days in the practice rounds of the Women's Open at

963
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 2: Sabonic watching them play my course and like up close.

964
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: I I contacted Stacey Lewis and Paul at Klemer and

965
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 2: it dances that event, and said, you know, could I

966
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 2: walk with you for a round and and just you know,

967
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 2: watch what you're doing, and in return, I'll answer any

968
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: questions you have about how I think you ought to

969
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: play certain holes. And they both yes, we will do that.

970
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 2: So that was great for me to get back inside

971
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: the ropes and and you know, see where they land

972
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: the ball and see how it reacts and you know,

973
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 2: they're so precise. I mean, and women's off you know,

974
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: like a savonic that the percentage of Fairway's hit statistic

975
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: was like, you know, the last player in the field

976
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: was at seventy percent. Invest players are like ninety six

977
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: because the airways are wide, and you know, they just

978
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 2: stripe it like they're used to play in every golf course,

979
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: like it's twenty yards wide. They never they never miss

980
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 2: wide very much, so you know, so that's the chance

981
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 2: to you know, and they don't hit the ball quite

982
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 2: so high as the men do. Yeah, so you know,

983
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 2: designing a course thinking about their skill set would be

984
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: very different. It wouldn't have to be this big wide

985
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: thing that everybody builds now that I sort of help popularize.

986
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I'm thinking, you know, we've

987
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 2: gone too far in that direction because all you've see

988
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 2: now is, you know, every course that's won the Best

989
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: New Award for the last twenty years is like the biggest,

990
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 2: widest golf course that was up for nomination that year.

991
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 2: It's like bigger is better, and you know, and I

992
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: don't think that's true. And I think the way to

993
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 2: do it is, you know, like really I just want

994
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 2: to build a sixty two hundred yard golf course. But

995
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,720
Speaker 2: I think that the way to sell just only building

996
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 2: a sixty two hundred yard golf course is to say, Okay,

997
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: this is a great course for women, and you guys

998
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: can try your luck on it, but you're going to

999
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 2: find out you're you know, it's not a pushover.

1000
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: It could be women, women and juniors. You need the

1001
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: LPGA Tour to create a TPC sawgrass like course for

1002
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: one of their championships.

1003
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 2: Well supposedly they did years ago. Whatever the LPGA International

1004
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: is that Reece Jones designed, I've never seen it, but

1005
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the course that I'm describing here.

1006
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 1: Probably not.

1007
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 2: I sure, I haven't heard a lot about it.

1008
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: So you you touched on Savonic and you've done a

1009
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: couple co design projects with other firms. You know, how

1010
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: tough is it to kind of share a vision with

1011
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: another ego on a project.

1012
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: It's it's tough, and it's it's different depending on who

1013
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: it is, like, you know, Yeah, I mean the two

1014
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 2: projects that I did in Australia, we worked with Mike Clayton,

1015
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: and that was pretty easy because I was friendly with

1016
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 2: Mike going into it. And it's the same by the

1017
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: same token, I had more experience than he did at

1018
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 2: that point, so he really deferred to me on a

1019
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 2: lot of stuff. You know, it was more like he

1020
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: was a consultant. But at the same time, you know,

1021
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 2: one of the reasons we we entered into that agreement was,

1022
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: you know, he had some really strong guys that worked

1023
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: for him that would help get the golf course built,

1024
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 2: project manage it. You know, one of them was a

1025
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 2: superintendent for years and had been an assistant of Royal

1026
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 2: Melbourne who I really respected a lot. And it's like,

1027
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: you know, so you know, he had some team members

1028
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: like I had some team members that really fit well together,

1029
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 2: so that made it easy. But at the end of

1030
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 2: the day, you know, it's like, you know, he'd give

1031
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: a lot of input, but also really isn't my decision

1032
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: on what would have got you know, Sabonic was completely different.

1033
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: You know, we had to agree from the beginning that

1034
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: you know, nothing was finished until we both liked it,

1035
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 2: and you know that meant that Jack, you know, there

1036
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 2: were some holes that you know, we tried to do

1037
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 2: some stuff that Jack didn't like, so we'd have to

1038
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: keep revising him, which is hard, and there were some

1039
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 2: holes that he wanted to do that you know, I

1040
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: didn't like it exactly the way it was, and he's

1041
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 2: not hearing that from somebody else. But you know the

1042
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 2: relationship between me and Jack was still pretty good because

1043
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: that's what we agreed to do and we both understood

1044
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 2: going in that that's what we're agreeing to. But the

1045
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 2: hard part was getting our teams seamesh didn't work very well.

1046
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 2: I mean on that project. You know, Jim Orbina who

1047
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 2: ran the job with me, and then Brian Schneider and

1048
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: Eric and some of the guys that shaped it, they

1049
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: had to take like several steps back from the role

1050
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: that they're usually involved and the level they're usually involved,

1051
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 2: you know, Like I mean, the cool thing for Eric

1052
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 2: or Brian working for me is if they build a

1053
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: wild green and I like it, it's done, and it's

1054
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 2: the bonics. It wasn't done, you know, I could like it,

1055
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 2: and then Jack didn't like it, and then it had

1056
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 2: to change and that was hard for them. That's you know,

1057
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: that's not what they were used to, and that the

1058
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: odds that they were going to build a green that

1059
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 2: went that flew through with flame colors and we were

1060
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,919
Speaker 2: done were a lot lower, so you know, that part

1061
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: of it was really tough, and they were just you know,

1062
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: there were more politics to that job than most. Again,

1063
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: you know, that's what we signed up for, you know.

1064
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 2: And I always said about that project, well, you know,

1065
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 2: other people are going to have to tell me if

1066
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 2: they think this was a good idea to get us

1067
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 2: together to design it, because you know, both Jack and

1068
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: I are always going to look at it like, oh,

1069
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 2: I would have done something different on Maple, you know.

1070
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: And yet and yet it's a pretty good golf course

1071
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: and it's pasted some big things and gotten a lot

1072
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: of acclaim for doing it. So I'm not saying that

1073
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 2: they did it the wrong way, you know, It's just

1074
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 2: it's just it's a different kind of emotional experience to

1075
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 2: doing it. And you know, you know, I don't get

1076
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: to go back to some of my own courses and

1077
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 2: enjoy them and play them as often as I'd like.

1078
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: But when I do go back to them, I really

1079
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 2: feel good about most of them. You know. It's not

1080
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 2: like I'm kinkering and second guessing myself and you know,

1081
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 2: wanting to go rebuild the Third Green because I just

1082
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: don't like the way it turned out, and you know,

1083
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 2: so so in most cases, I can just go back

1084
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 2: and play golf and have fun. And I actually play

1085
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 2: pretty well because I you know, because I'm comfortable with

1086
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: all the shots that I got to hit. You know,

1087
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: Sabonic is kind of the rare one that when I

1088
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 2: go back, there's still questions about it. And you know,

1089
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: even if I'm playing with a friend, they all want

1090
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 2: to know, like, okay, so this is your idea? Is

1091
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: this Jack's idea? And it just takes away from the

1092
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: fun we normally have building the things. Mm hmm.

1093
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: That's uh. I imagine it's just got to be so

1094
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: tough when both have to sign off on it, and

1095
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: you know that it's kind of differing design philosophies with

1096
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: the with the two firms. I want to I want to.

1097
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: I mean partly it's you know, I will say too

1098
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 2: partly it's my fault. I mean, if i'd have known

1099
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,439
Speaker 2: Jack Nick, look well at the beginning of the thing,

1100
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 2: I should have said to him, you know, look, don't

1101
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: worry that we're going to ignore what you have to say.

1102
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to babysit us to make

1103
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 2: sure that we're sticking to stick and do things, you know,

1104
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 2: just let us ruffian stuff for you and then come

1105
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 2: out and and you know, tell us all the changes

1106
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 2: you want to make, just like you would to your

1107
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 2: own staff. But you know that course was overstaffed. Yeah,

1108
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 2: we didn't need all you know, we didn't need all

1109
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: my people and all his people there at the same time.

1110
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: That part was the part that didn't work.

1111
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 1: So well, yeah, it's gotta be tough, so