1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Brought you by Bank of America, Mary Lynch. Investing in 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: local communities, economies and a sustainable future. That's a power 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: of global connections. Mary Lynch, Pierce Fenner and Smith Incorporated 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: Member s I p C. Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. 5 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: I'm Tom Keene with David Gura. Daily we bring you 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: insight from the best in economics, finance, investment and international relations. 7 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: Find Bloomberg Surveillance on iTunes, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com and 8 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: of course on the Bloomberg was Georges. He is the 9 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: London School of Economics, professor of the Middle East Center 10 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: and professor. You're also the author of Ice is a history. 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: When you look at what a travel back and could do, 12 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: does it actually push more people into extreme thinking because 13 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: they feel left out? Or can we not do that correlation? 14 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: Any expert on the mid least, any expert on ISIS 15 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: would tell you the worst thing you can do is 16 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: to basically provide ISIS on al Qaida with ideological ammunition, 17 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: with motivation and inspiration the ban against seven countries and 18 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: saying an Iraqi refugees. Basically, it's ineffective. That is, it 19 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: will do more damage than good. It will hardly basically 20 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: limit the damage any kind of attacks against the United States. 21 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: It's counterproductive because it blades into the narrative Alkai down Isis. 22 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: It's foolishly irrational. It alienates Muslim public opinion. If you 23 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: want to fight ISIS, you don't plumb more than one 24 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: billion Muslims with Islamic radicalism and Alkai there and Isis. 25 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: It deepens anti American sentiments in the Muslim world. If 26 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: you tell me what does the band do, I would 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: say it provides a massive propaganda boost for ISIS and 28 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: al Qaeda. It plays into their hands. It's sweet music 29 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: to extremist networks, not just in the Middle East, but 30 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: in the great Muslim world. Well, the White House understand this, 31 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: I don't think. So what we need to understand is 32 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: that I don't have to be an expert to tell 33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump that this is irrational, that it's counterproductive, that's 34 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: it's foolishly an American. I think what we need to 35 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: understand this particular decision, this particular initiative on the part 36 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump is really Donald Trump is blinded by ideology. 37 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: This is a political decision. It plays into well with 38 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: his hardcore narrative. But I mean, if you look at 39 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: what's happening in the Middle East and the Muslim world, 40 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: you have anger, you have rage, and more and more 41 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: Muslims now are buying into Al Qaied and isis narrative 42 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: that this is a war against Islam and Muslims. I mean, 43 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: this is not a war between Islam and the West. 44 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: This is a war within Islam. That is the fight 45 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: within a Iraq and Syria. It's a world within Islam. 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: What Donald Trump is is time to do is to 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: shift in that active This is a world between Islam 48 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: and the West. Professor, I want to ask you a 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: really sensitive question. I say this with great respect for 50 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: the literature of say Albert Harani and the history of 51 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: the Arab peoples and all the other literature on Islam. 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Is Donald Trump running what the Middle East, in in 53 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: the Islamic world would perceive as a new crusade? Is 54 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: there a tinge here within the rhetoric and the discourse 55 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: that President Trump is galloping off to Jerusalem to fight 56 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: the fourth and fifth or the sixth crusade? You know, uh, Tom, 57 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: What I fear the most is that now you have 58 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: two parallel narratives happening and in the world, in the 59 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: Islamic world and the Western world. On the one hand, 60 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: you have a fringe group called ISAs are al Qaeda, 61 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: ISAs and Alkai that says that is a clash of 62 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: civilization between Islam and the West, that this is a 63 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: clash of civilization between America, which they basically the leader 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: of the free world. And now you have Donald Trump, 65 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: who's blasically trafficking in a similar clash. And the clash 66 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: is a clash of civilization. This is not about a 67 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: tiny fringe in the Muslim world. This is a war 68 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: between Islam and the West. I mean, think of what 69 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has said in the past two years. These 70 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: are not my words. Islam hates us all that is 71 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: he's talking about American all of us. And this is 72 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: a clash of civilization. So what I fear the most 73 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump is shifting the debate from being 74 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: what's happening in Iraq and City and Afghanistan, this is 75 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: a war within Islam into being a struggle a clash 76 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: between Islam and the West. And that's why I say 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is unwittingly or wittingly playing into the 78 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: narrative of Al Qai down isis professor. What we react 79 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: to within the United States and frankly in the collegial 80 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: West is Mr Trudeau stepped up this weekend in Canada 81 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: and said our doors are open to refugees. I'm sure 82 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: you was awakened last night with the killings in Quebec. 83 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: Is isis in any way diminished or should Mr Trudeau 84 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: and all of us expect these isolated incidents like Quebec. 85 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's not surprising, Tom, I mean, 86 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: these incidents have become part of our life. Whether you're 87 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: talking about Istanbul, whether you're talking about the Signa, whether 88 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about Berlin, whether you're talking about Quebec, or 89 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: whether you're talking about Florida or whether you're talking about California. 90 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: There is a real division now, a real cleavage, and 91 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: you have fringe elements on both sides who have subscribe 92 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: to this particular clash of civilization that is between Islam 93 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: and the West. What but what we're talking about here 94 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: and entirely different. This is the United States of America. Tom. 95 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: This is not a banana republic. When the President of 96 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: the United States basically traffics in a clash of civilization narrative. 97 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: Call it what you have I mean in the must 98 00:05:58,279 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: of them world, and I know a bit about the 99 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: Arab world and the Muslim world. It's seen as a 100 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: Muslim band. It alienates Muslim public opinion. When when when 101 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, the President of the United States, traffics in 102 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: such a narrative. It undermines the idea of America as 103 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: a moral force and also provides ammunition not just for 104 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: al Kai down isis, it provides ammunition to the far 105 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: right group in the heart of Europe where I am 106 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: in Britain, in Germany, in France and other countries. And 107 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: that's why it's very dangerous. Let me ask you a question. 108 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure France scene is far more knowledgeable about this 109 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: than I am. Should President Trump speak to Parliament? Should 110 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: President Trump give be given the privilege of speaking at 111 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: Westminster Hall? That that that space that goes back to 112 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: one D. You know, Tom really and I appear on 113 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: Arab television on daily basis, I say Donald Trump does 114 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: not speak for the United States of America. Donald sum 115 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: does not speak for the three d and forty million Americans. 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: Is a real struggle in the United States, and it's 117 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: really wonderful to see the debate, the struggle that's shaping 118 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 1: in the United States, and the media, in particularly the 119 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 1: American media standing up and defending American values. The worst 120 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: thing we can do, and I hear now I made 121 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: in the heart of the UK, the worst thing we 122 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: can do is to give a platform for this kind 123 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: of rhetoric. And saddened by the fact that Theresa May 124 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: has not stood up in the same way that miracle 125 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: in Germany, and the French president and the Canadian Canadian president. 126 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: This is not a war, this is not a clash 127 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: between Islam and the West. It's a clash within. There 128 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: is a real struggled I am an American. I'm talking 129 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: as an American. There is a clash within America about 130 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: the values we subscribe to, the progressive, democratic, humanist values. 131 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: Donald Trump does not speak for me, does not speak 132 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: for millions of Americans. This has been wonderful. Professor Gurgis, 133 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much with the London School of Economics, 134 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: without question our interview of the day. He is a 135 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: former ambassador to NATO and Greece. Nicholas Burns, Ambassador Burns, 136 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: wonderful to have you with us today. The morning I 137 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: want to know from you what you will be listening 138 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: for from Secretary Designate Tillerson. If I assume that Tillerson 139 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: and Secretary of Defense Matt us are the adults in 140 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: the room, how do they act forward to what we've 141 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: observed in the last four days. Well, I think that 142 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: that Secretary Tillison, sexually Designate Tillisen is going to be 143 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: asked about this um this ban on refugees over the 144 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: next four months. It's a difficult moved by the Trump 145 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: administration because it really wasn't necessary. We already have strong 146 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: betting in place. Refugees have to wait twenty four to 147 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: thirty six months to get into this country. We know 148 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: everything about them. We've taken in eight hundred thousand refugees 149 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: in nine eleven with very few problems. I think he'll 150 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: be asked about that, and about the fact that in 151 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, when President Trump signed this executive order, 152 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 1: they hadn't briefed the Congress, and they hadn't briefed the 153 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: government's involved, so that the implementations. But help me here 154 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: with the Oval Office and the structure of government, folks, 155 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: if you haven't seen at the website for White House, 156 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: dot gov. They dropped the judicial branch this morning. We 157 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: all know about Mr Bannon, President Trump, etcetera. Nick Burns, 158 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: do you presume did senior cabinet officers ride to the 159 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: constitutional and common sense rescue or is that just wishful 160 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: thinking on the part of people not as grizzled as you. Well, 161 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: the President obviously is the most important person in this system. 162 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: Um the Secretary of State and Secretary Defense having a 163 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: lot of power if the president wants to listen to them. 164 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: I think Mr Tillison and General Mattis are extremely impressive people. 165 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: They've got a lot of experience, They're pragmatic, and they're 166 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: the kind of people you want to have around you 167 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: when you make this decision, because you have to think, 168 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: have we taken care of cont does Congress agree with this? 169 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: Have we listened to the Congress? So now you have 170 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: a mutiny of Republican senators against the refugee policy because 171 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: they weren't consulted and because this has been I think 172 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: in part, the wrong decision by the administration. So you 173 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: do need those people around the table. And certainly on Russia, 174 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: you saw that President Trump talked to President Putin over 175 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: the weekend Apparently President Trump did not raise with President 176 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: Putin Russian interference in our election, didn't even raise Ukraine. 177 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: Those are the two top issues in the US Russian relationships. 178 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: You want to have someone like Rex Chellison around to say, 179 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: we've got to speak truth to power, We've got to 180 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: go at Putin, raise these issues and be tough minded 181 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: with them. So I think you've seen an absence of 182 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: that kind of adult leadership, of very strong, experienced leadership 183 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: in the White House over the last ten days. And 184 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: Pastor Burne, if I'm Rex Taylorson, am I going to 185 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: be worried about the department that I perhaps will inherit here? 186 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: There has been the resignation or forced removal a number 187 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: of people at the top foreign service officers at the 188 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: at the State Department. I just I just wonder what 189 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: that portends for the department in terms of leadership, in 190 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: terms of internal leadership going forward. Well, it's been a 191 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: very slow transition the Trump. President Trump has not even 192 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 1: appointed at the Deputy Secretary of State, the number two official, 193 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: or the three or four major under secretaries of state. 194 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: This is the leadership team. So no one's even been 195 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: appointed yet. In our assistant. You have to have security 196 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: clearance that takes a long time. You have to have 197 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: Senate confirmation. So it may be that Rex Jodson will 198 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: not end Jim Mattis won't have their leadership teams in 199 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: place until the summer. And here we are, we're going 200 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: to have, you know, with the largest and most powerful 201 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: country in the world, you need to have that team 202 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: around you. So he's going to have to rely on 203 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: career officials. But last week the Trump administration essentially pushed 204 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: out the top management team, all career officials. People have 205 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: served presidents at both parties. They pushed them all out, 206 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: And so you have to wonder about the wisdom of 207 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: not relying on the career service. The career services a 208 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: political They will serve any president with loyalty, but they're 209 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: getting a stiff arm right now the Trump administration. Just 210 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: lastly here, let's ask you about the National Security Council. 211 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: Tom mentioned Steve Bannon, who now will have a role 212 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: on that council going forward, something that is unprecedented. We 213 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: haven't seen that in previous administrations. And the CIA Director 214 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: of the CIA will not be on the council. What 215 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: do you make of this? And What does that tell 216 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: you about the direction in terms of foreign policy this administration. Well, 217 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: it seems to be a mistake when you don't have 218 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Director of 219 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: National Intelligence at the table permanently. I don't see how 220 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: you can have effective decision making when you do have 221 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: the senior political advisor, the political strategist in this case, 222 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: Steve Bannon the table. That's something that President Bush especially 223 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: felt would be wrong. You have to separate politics from 224 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: national security. You don't want the implication, however, it's whether 225 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: it's fair or not that the president is acting for political, 226 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: domestic political motives on the critical issues of foreign policy. 227 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: So this is a This has taken I think lots 228 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: of people who've been in Washington for years by surprise. 229 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: I know President Trump wants to change everything, but not 230 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: everything's broken. Our refugee system, for instance, is not broken. 231 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: We've taken in eight hundred thousand people since final You 232 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: have been cordial. Thank you so much, Investador Burns for 233 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: joining us today. I'm sure we'll call on you here 234 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: uh uh the coming days as well. Brought you by 235 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: Bank of America Mary Lynch, dedicated to bringing our clients 236 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: insights and solutions to meet the challenges of a transforming world. 237 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: That's the power of global connections. Mary Lynch Pierce feederin 238 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: Smith Incorporated, Member s I p C. David a fabulous book, 239 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: Failure to Adjust as Failures justus how Americans got left 240 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: behind in the global economy. It's by Edward Alden. He 241 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: is a Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations 242 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: joins US now an expert on trade policy and US 243 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: Mexico relations and immigration policy as well. Edward Alden joining 244 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: us on the Spectrum Enterprise, Phoneline, Spectrum Enterprise, Nationwide fiber 245 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: based network and I T Infrastructure solutions and Ted, I'd 246 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: love to talk about US Mexican relations in the Wall 247 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: and all of that, and so, but let me get 248 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: your reaction to what we saw play out over the weekend. Here. 249 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: You have studied immigration policy so closely, We've had conversations 250 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: about what it might look like we're to come out 251 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: of Congress. Is this immigration policy of a different sort? 252 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: Does this portend a new tack when it comes to 253 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: crafting immigration policy in this country? Um? Yes, indeed, David, 254 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the most extraordinary thing i've certainly 255 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: ever seen in my lifetime. We're changing fifty sixty years 256 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: of immigration policy here in a week. My first book 257 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: was actually about the impact of the nine eleven terrorist 258 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: attacks on on U S Immigration policy. That was pretty substantial, 259 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: but it was rolled out carefully and thoughtfully. There were 260 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: some pretty severe unintended consequences, but but it was a 261 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: fairly rational process. This just just happened. I mean, as 262 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal put it, this morning was like 263 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: dropping a Stunn grenade. And and and you know, we saw 264 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: some extraordinary scenes over the weekend that airports across the 265 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: United States. So I think the disruption was far beyond 266 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: anything we've ever seen before. And and it's going to 267 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: be fascinating to watch how the administration tries to pick 268 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: up the pieces this week has to watch. Does it 269 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: play out in the court system, Does it play out 270 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill? How do you see the opposition to 271 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: this taking shape? Yeah, I mean it plays out everywhere. 272 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: You had that, you know, immediately a couple of court 273 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: injunctions which appear to have made it possible at least 274 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: for for for those citizens from the seven countries that 275 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: were on the band lift, who you know, already had 276 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: travel authorization to the United States, and actually a lot 277 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: of cases arrived and we're being detained at the airports. 278 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: That the injunctions appear to make it possible for those 279 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: people to enter, though though compliance by Department Homeland Security 280 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: officials across the country seem to be spotty. And then, 281 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: obviously the second question is is what happens from the Congress. 282 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: You have you know, Senator McCain, Senator Graham, and others 283 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: speaking out, but I think it's getting broader. Senator Corker, 284 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: the the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and 285 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: others are are strongly suggesting that the administration needs to 286 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: rethink its direction. Here. Let me ask you just about 287 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: about what we said last It's funny that the news 288 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: flow is so strong. The subject we're talking about last 289 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: week was was Mexico US Mexico relations. I was looking 290 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: at a piece you wrote in what you said, unlike 291 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of nine eleven, Trumps responded to a 292 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: cris crisis, mostly of his own imagining. I suppose you 293 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: could extrapolate that to what we're seeing here with with 294 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: the executive order that was announced last week. But when 295 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: it comes to immigration. When it comes to uh, folks 296 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: getting over the border illegally, I gather we're at we're 297 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: at an all time low. We're basically at levels we 298 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: were back in the late sixties, early nineteen seventies. I 299 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: mean Mexico, there was really almost no Mexican illegal immigration 300 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: through the mid nineties sixties when when we actually in 301 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: the Unit States for the first time imposed visa restrictions 302 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: on Mexico, and then you started to see this kind 303 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: of slow climb in numbers, but it really didn't hit 304 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: the crisis point basically into the early So we're now 305 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: back at that, at the level when nobody in the 306 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: United States was worried at all about illegal gration. For Max, 307 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's not a problem, but the numbers 308 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: are a fraction of what they were a decade ago. 309 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: We have talked in the recent days of Brad Delong's 310 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: essays on trade, Danny Roderick at Harvard, and they would 311 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: collegial disagreement, folks, failure to adjust is the Primmer Chapter five, 312 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: Edward Alden, you kill it with a Fred Burston quote 313 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: from forty four years ago where Fred Burston and others 314 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: said there's two paths do it this way, are actually 315 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: provide assistance to the Americans that were dislocated through an 316 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: after etcetera, etcetera. I don't see any visibility that we're 317 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: actually going to compensate workers who have been wiped out. 318 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: If we don't do that, what are we gonna do? Yeah, 319 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: thank you, Tom, I mean that was in my mind 320 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: an extra nary historical mistake. Look, trade is a good thing, 321 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: I am. I am strongly pro free trade. Technology is 322 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: a good thing. Is how we get more productive. But 323 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: all of these things create disruption. They put people out 324 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: of work, they change the nature communities, they drive factories 325 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: away sometimes, and you have we we needed to be 326 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: serious as a country about trying to help those people adjust, 327 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: find new work for them, retrain them, try to build 328 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: their communities back up. If we couldn't try to help 329 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: them move to other places. And Fred realized this, you know, 330 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: as a young man way back in the nineties seventies, 331 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: and a lot others recognized it too, as I read 332 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: about in my book, and it just was not done. 333 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: And we're now at a point, unfortunately, where we're scrambling 334 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: because we've got a president who no longer leaves an 335 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: open trade. He believes in protectionism. Very different world. Why 336 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: wasn't it done And do you see any indication that 337 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: these people that voted for President Trump are going to 338 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: be rewarded by President Trump? Why can't we affect what 339 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: everyone agrees needs to be done. I just you know, 340 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: it's been hard in the sort of US political system. 341 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: It required, you know, perhaps a slightly higher level of 342 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: taxation and redistribution. And I think, you know, if we 343 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: had sort of enlightened leadership in the corporate sector and elsewhere, 344 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: they would have made a strong case for this and said, look, 345 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: we don't want to kill the goose that lays the 346 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: golden egg. Trade is good for the United States, but 347 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: we really are going to have to be serious about 348 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: helping the losers. And and I think nobody ever paid 349 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: a political price for not doing it, and then all 350 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: of a sudden and one fell swoop. The entire country 351 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: is gonna pay an enormous political price or not. David Gerry, 352 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: I would fold this into Olivier Blanchard and Professor Summers 353 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: on history sis and bring it right over to the 354 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: great market economist John Sylvia of Wells Fargo. Compensate people 355 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: who have to move because they're little town in the 356 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,239 Speaker 1: Carolina's has been wiped out. I mean it's you do 357 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: a tax, you know, a ten forty thing, and you 358 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: say your your job was wiped out. I'm moving, and 359 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: then you really compensate him. I was gonna say, the 360 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: townshop made a lot of promise is on the campaign trail, 361 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: people in the towns like the ones that that Tom 362 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: is mentioning there and and I I wonder what the 363 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: odds are are ted that that he makes good on 364 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: those And you have a lot of people who voted 365 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: for him and accounting on him to do something for 366 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: their economic situation. And you know, we we've seen these 367 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: executive orders which have varying sharpness of teeth. Is there 368 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: much that he can do in the executive office to 369 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 1: help them? Well, I mean most of the things that 370 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: need to be done are are going to require congressional action. 371 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: And and you know, it's not clear to me at 372 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: all that congressional Republicans they're going to be sympathetic. I think, 373 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, big infrastructure program I think would help put 374 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: people back to work. You certainly don't hear Republicans talking 375 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: about anything that looks like redistribution to to help those people. 376 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: I think, you know, depending on what the Obamacare replacement is, 377 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: they could end up being worse off in terms of 378 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: their health insurance. I mean, Trump is obviously trying to 379 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: act on some of the foreign facing pieces. And you know, 380 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: I was actually reasonably supportive of the President with some 381 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: of his job owning of American companies. I think American 382 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: companies have too often turned their back on communities here 383 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: in the United States, and they need to think more 384 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: about job creation here. So I was reasonably encouraged by that. 385 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: But but you know, he has now layered on top 386 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: of that, uh, you know, a number I just think 387 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: mistaken moves. I think pulling out of the Trans Spacific partnership, 388 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: and I think some of the threats against Mexico I 389 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: think are all very counterproductive. I'm gonna recommend your book, 390 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: even though in the first dam sentence of your book, 391 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: Edward ald and you ye Greek, I'm not kidding. Alpha 392 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: vega tow alpha ro Kappa, epsilon, iota alphaea. What are 393 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: you talking about in the first sentence of your book. Well, 394 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, I started it off and I was trying 395 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: to be provocative by saying that I was born into 396 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: the greatest autar key in the history of mankind. Most 397 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: people don't remember that. You know, back in the early 398 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, when when I was growing up in Schenectady, 399 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: New York, uh, the United States didn't trade a whole 400 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: lot with the rest of the world, not because we 401 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: were closed economy or because we had high tariffs, but 402 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: because we did need anything from anybody else. We made 403 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: everything better than every other country in the world. Our 404 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: trade to GDP ratio, which is a measure of openness, 405 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: was down there with with the communist Soviet Union and 406 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: communist China, which were countries that were pursuing au Turkey 407 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: as a policy. So I started with that to make 408 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: the point that the transformation we've seen in our lifetime 409 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: is really dramatic. The United States has moved from a 410 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: rather closed economy to a very open one, and that 411 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: was just inevitably going to be disruptive, and unfortunately we 412 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: didn't put the pieces in place to try to manage 413 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: the disruption that globalization was creating. I'm glad that you've 414 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: had this PR campaign to make your book more attractive. 415 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: All the the best PR campaign the book was important 416 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: on the day it was released with the Console of 417 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: Foreign Relations Failure to Adjust how Americans got left behind 418 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: in the global economy. I would suggest with the offense 419 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: that it is a two fifty eight page primer to 420 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: give you a grounding in perspective Edward Olden Failure to Adjust, 421 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: just superbose, would be my book of the summer. But 422 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: it's it's not even February exactly, so I'm not there yet. 423 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: And now for a three hour interview we wish with 424 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: a gentleman from Waterville, Maine, we can all talk about 425 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: our experiences and what we've witnessed the last four days 426 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: he lived at. George Mitchell grew up in a family 427 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: of first generation Lebany. Did your mother speak English Sundric 428 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: with a heavy accent? Heavy? She learned it finally, Yes 429 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: she did. She couldn't read it write, but she was 430 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: able finally to speak it. You grew up with a 431 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: kitchen table and the National geographic on it. Does Mr 432 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: Trump understand the map of the world, if you will, 433 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: and how the United States must adapt to it? Well? 434 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: I can't look into his mind. I do think that 435 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: the action taken over the past weekend UH will create 436 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: problems for the United States around the world, and probably 437 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: not accomplished the stated objective help us with the silence 438 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: of senators. As I watched all of this unfold over 439 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: the weekend, you saw some Democratic senators at the airport. 440 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: I remember seeing Sendor Elizabeth Warren at Logan with a 441 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: bullhorn among the protests there were you surprised that we 442 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: didn't hear more from senators at all of this and 443 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: unfolded from both sides of the aisle. Well. Senators McCain 444 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: and Graham, of course made their views known publicly, and 445 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: my guess is that other Republican senators are conveying concerns 446 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: to the White House privately, not wanting to make the 447 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: new president's life more difficult publicly because their future and 448 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: their interests are bound up with his, but also wanted 449 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: to make clear that the president understands that there is 450 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: widespread opposition to this and it's not just a political lines. 451 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: How world were you listening to President Trump deliver his 452 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: inaugural address, hearing the disdain or displeasure he had for 453 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: politicians in Washington, thinking about what the relationship between the 454 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: White House and the Congress is going to be like 455 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: in this term. Uh. I don't think that had any 456 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: significant effect on the members of Congress of his party 457 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: for the reasons I've just stated their their future lies 458 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: with him, and they see his victory as a way 459 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: to accomplish their objectives as well. People have, all of 460 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: us have a substantial capacity for rationalization and exempting themselves 461 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: from whatever criticism has made, even though they may fall 462 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: into that category. So I don't think too many of 463 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: them were disturbed about that. Senator George Mitchell with us 464 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: with his public service to the nation, particularly in the 465 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: Middle East and Northern Ireland. Senator Doris Current's Goodwin team arrival, 466 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: I've been saying all weekend out on Twitter and all that. Uh. 467 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: The General Maddis and Secretary Designate Tillerson are absolutely clear 468 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: chapter one of Karent's Goodwin four men waiting. What are 469 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: the two men waiting to do in the cabinet as 470 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: they deal with this unique White House calculus? How did 471 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: Maddison Tillerson advocate a normal government process? Uh? Well, the 472 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: beginning of it was their confirmation hearings at which they 473 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: publicly expressed US country to those of the President, and 474 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: hopefully they'll carry that into their private consultations. Of course, 475 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: it's a fine line. They have to demonstrate loyalty. They 476 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: will want not to be seen as overtly or politically 477 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: critical of the president. But hopefully they are strong enough 478 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: men to make the views known in private, either individually 479 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: with the President or in private meetings that are held 480 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: in the situation room, or otherwise. I don't know either man, 481 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: but the reputation certainly a substantial in that regarding in 482 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: particular general matters. How do you gauge the strength of 483 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: the the the quality of Congress Right now, plenty of 484 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: people are are willing to to pillory it. And I 485 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: suppose you could look at what's happened here, look at 486 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: this immigration order and say, perhaps this is a reaction 487 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: to Congress failing to do anything itself on the matter 488 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: of immigration. If it isn't bad shape, what what's going 489 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 1: to turn it around? Well, there's no dialt at your 490 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: statement about Congress's in action is absolutely true. Uh, And 491 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: hopefully there will be triggered by these unfortunate events in 492 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: the past few days, a national debate on what we 493 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: should do about immigration. There's a long history there. I 494 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: think the two most important changes that could be made 495 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: to improve Congress and reduced dysfunction, are to provide for 496 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: redistricting of House seats UH through a less partisan mechanism 497 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: than now exists. UH sixteen states are moving in that direction, 498 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: led by California and Iowan. If if you get close 499 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: to fifty states by two thousand twenty or two thousand 500 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: twenty two, you might have a change. And the second 501 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: factor is money. Our political system is drowning in money, 502 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: and paradoxically, as the amount of money going in is rising, 503 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: the transparency of who's giving what to whom is declining. 504 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: The red sox are drowning and put on money as well. 505 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: And look what happened, Senator Mitchell. One last question, I've 506 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: got just twenty seconds. What would Olivia Olympia snow do? 507 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: Where is the moderate Republican voiced Tember what we see 508 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: in this era? They've shrunk in numbers. But Senator Collins 509 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: of Maine remains that I hope she will at some 510 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: point address the subject we've had. She's been quite strong 511 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: in other areas, and I think there are a few others. 512 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: But that goes back to the prior question, the increasing 513 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: polarization and partisanship that you could help to cure by 514 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: changing the the money system and the redistrict process. Senator 515 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: George Mitchell, thank you so much. David garn Tom King worldwide, 516 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg. We are honored and I mean honored, folks, 517 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: to end the madness of Bloomberg surveillance this morning with sanity. 518 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: This this afternoon at three pm Mountain time. U taught 519 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: time the girls freshman basketball team of box Elder High 520 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: School will play Carnes High School. That's normalcy. And our guests, 521 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: Congressman Bishop of the first District and Chairman Bishop, I 522 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: should say of the first District you taught knows this 523 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: because he taught civics years ago social studies at box 524 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: Elder High School. Chairman, wonderful to speak to you. Help 525 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: apply our civics to what we've seen the last nine days. 526 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,959 Speaker 1: Do you counsel patients or is your congressional patients wearing 527 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: thin Uh? My personal patients is always wearing thinn like 528 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: a teacher. I think, yeah, Well, at least when I 529 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: was in the classroom, I could control my environment. And 530 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: I appreciate you mentioning that because you know what, can 531 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: I say, go box Elder the beas will win. I'm 532 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: proud of those those girls. Um listen. I I think 533 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: what you were talking about in the broader spectrum is 534 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: what Speaker Ryan has talked about as his Article one initiative, 535 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: which means that there needs to be decision making powers. 536 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: Decisions need to be removed from the bureaucrats in the 537 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: executive branch and put back into Congress because the legislative 538 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: branches how people get their views heard and felt. If 539 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: if if a citizen does not like an decision of 540 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: one of the executive agencies, there's almost nothing that person 541 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: can do about it. But the founders came up with 542 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: the constitution where I have to run for election every 543 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: two years, which means I am forced to listen. Whether 544 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: I want to or not, I am forced to listen 545 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: to people politics. That's a nasty thing of politics is 546 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: the way common people get their views heard and felt. 547 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: And that's why Congress was was given the authority and 548 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: responsibility of coming up with politic decisions in all these areas, 549 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: and that's why it has to be moved back there. 550 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: It's not just the power struggle between the executive legislated branches. 551 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: This is how people can be heard and it can 552 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: be empowered, and I want to see that happen. I 553 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: want to help push that that agenda. So more decisions 554 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: are being made by statute, fewer by executive fiat. How 555 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: you say decisions, Fewer decisions have been made by bureaucrats 556 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: in the executive branch. I think of the decisions we've 557 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: seen from a bureaucrat, the bureaucrat, the chief bureaucrat in 558 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: the executive branch, that is President Trump. What's your action 559 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: to his use of executive orders thus far, in particular 560 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: the one about immigration, now that we've seen the blowback, 561 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: now that we've seen that there might not have been 562 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: this sort of legal due diligence done beforehand. Well, if 563 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: executive orders are rolling back other executive orders, I think 564 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: that's appropriate and that's positive. Going forward, If once again 565 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: policy is being made by executive order, I would hope 566 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: the administration will be working closer with Congress to make 567 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: sure that Congress is the one that's establishing that that 568 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: procedure going forward. So I need to look at each 569 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: of those ones individually, how they deal with it. But 570 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: I think that goes back to the philosophy I was 571 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: saying in what Speaker Ryan is talking about with this 572 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: article one initiative, if we come to the mindset that 573 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, every executive every president has to 574 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: establish all sorts of executive orders in which policy can 575 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: be decided, all of a sudden, you have shifted that 576 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: authority and you have lessened the voice of people. But 577 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: more importantly, you've made every every presidential election a life 578 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: and death decision. The founders had spread out the power 579 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: so that that would not be the case, that there 580 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: would not be this wide change in policy one way 581 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: to the other. And that's why we have two year terms. 582 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: Presidents got four senators, specifically six, because they were supposed 583 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: to deal with foreign policy, and they could they could 584 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: extend beyond any given president. Chairman. Help to get back 585 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: to that chairman to help me, or you took a 586 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: hundred of the Republican vote last time, I get that 587 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: there's four Democrats in your district. They're out there bears 588 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,719 Speaker 1: out in Ashley National Forest way east of Salt Lake City. Seriously, 589 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: here you are the Republican voice of a purely republican American. 590 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: What do you want from General Maddis, What do you 591 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: want from Secretary Tillerson to get to a policy and 592 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: process that you and your leaders, Speaker Ryan can work with. Well, 593 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: I think there's one. Once again, each agency has a 594 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: different approach to it, and I think Mattis has already 595 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: shown how he is willing to work with Congress ahead 596 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: of time to try and meet problems, and I think 597 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: Tillerson will be the same way. I'm impressed by both 598 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: of them. But one thing I think structurally would be 599 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: very helpful is if the agencies and the administrative branches 600 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: would actually go to Congress first before they implement rules 601 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: and regulations. I mean, it's very nice that we're doing 602 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: some c r A s and trying to roll back 603 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: some executive orders, but if indeed, as happens in most states, 604 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: where the executive agencies have to meet with their legislative 605 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: branch first before the rules and regulations are initiated, there'd 606 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: be a whole lot better comedy, There'd be a whole 607 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: lot better continuity of programs, and I think we just 608 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: have a better system of government if the rules came 609 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: to us first. And I think ultimately that's what I'd 610 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: like to see happen. If I could weave my watch 611 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 1: one that's the change of box elder bees one. Harry Potter, 612 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: like the chairman, thank you so much, don't be a stranger. 613 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: Would love to have you on again, maybe actually to 614 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: talk energy resources policy as he is a chairman of 615 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: that committee. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. 616 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: Subscribe and listen to interviews on iTunes, SoundCloud, or whichever 617 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 1: podcast platform you prefer. I'm out on Twitter at Tom Keene. 618 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: David Gura is at David Gura. Before the podcast, you 619 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio, brought you 620 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: by Bank of America Mary Lynch. Dedicated to bringing our 621 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: clients insights and solutions to meet the challenges of a 622 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: transform farming world. That's the power of global connections. Mary Lynch, Pierce, 623 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: Fenner and Smith Incorporated, Member s I p C.