WEBVTT - The Waiting, Part 1 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:14.160 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.440 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.239 And to introduce today's topic, I wanted to start off 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.080 by referring to a news article that I found from 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.680 last year. So this is a local news article from 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:30.520 the Santa Clara, California area from March. Remember remember that 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.120 scary time back when there was a lot of panic 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.600 buying going on because COVID was just starting to dawn 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.680 on people and suddenly everybody was like, oh, yeah, okay, 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.520 we gotta stock up. We don't know when we're gonna 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.440 be leaving the house, and so forth. And so this 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.400 article is referring to the fact that there were long 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:52.080 lines at the cost Co in Santa Clara, California in March. 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.880 And one element of the story that I thought was 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.320 very interesting was that the Santa Clarita Valley Sheriff Station 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.280 was on Twitter at some point begging people not to 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.400 call nine one one because of people cutting in front 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.640 of them in line. Their tweet read, please don't call 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.880 nine one one because people are cutting in front of 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.080 you at line at the store. It ties up valuable 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.880 resources for real emergencies. But the funny thing is that 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:21.520 you would have to say this at all. I mean, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.600 it seems kind of obvious to me that somebody cutting 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.480 in front of you in line at the store is 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.800 very rude. But this is not a police matter. But 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.600 I've noticed a lot of you know, informal reports and 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.399 uh and and even in kind of a recurring theme 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.000 of don't be this person viral videos online lately is 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.039 people calling the cops on someone allegedly cutting in front 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.240 of them at the drive through line at burger King 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:52.160 or something like that. And it makes me wonder, why 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.800 would it be common for people to believe that cutting 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.400 in line at a customer service point is a crime 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.920 on a level that merrits the summoning of armed officers 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.880 of the law. Well, I guess we we should point 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.400 out that if if there is a situation where one 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.080 party or even two parties are sort of violating the 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.359 you know, the social norms of of lines and waiting 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.080 in line, that itself may not be a crime, but 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:26.240 you could imagine where the resulting dynamics could rise to 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.520 the point of a crime. I mean, if if if 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.799 it becomes an aggressive enough encounter, you know, then it 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.080 it could rise to the level of threats and assaults. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.000 So it's not to say that it's an it's something 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.320 that's in an entire separate universe and could never rub 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:44.799 up against those those real criminal um activities. But yeah, 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.480 did the mere act of someone just like jumping ahead 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.160 of you in line, uh and and not acknowledging you 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.280 like that that does that is certainly not a police matter. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.079 Police have better things to do than get called about that, right, 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.000 But it's funny that at least some people in two 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.440 watively think of the idea that somebody allegedly cut in 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.639 front of them in line at at at a customer 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.120 service situation is on the level of being you know, 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.680 robbed at gunpoint or something that you need to get 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.560 the cops here about this. But you see people react 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.840 very um alarmingly at times. Oh yeah, for instance, okay, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.120 so so right before this podcast, and I got some 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.440 coffee and there was no line to order the coffee, 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.280 but there was a line to wait on the coffee, 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:30.680 which was an interesting experience I'll get back to, but 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:34.920 it reminds me of a very recent, uh experience I 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.800 had at a coffee shop at an airport where there 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:39.400 was a line to get the coffee, and then there 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.920 was a long wait to receive the coffee. And I 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.559 everybody's wearing a masks at the at the coffee establishment, 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.520 so it's it's extra difficult to hear what people were saying. 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:51.960 And I had one of those moments where I thought 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.640 my name was called my last name and I and 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.200 I went forward and I almost touched the bag of 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.160 someone else's order, and it was it was this older 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.000 couple and um, and I was like, oh, I'm sorry. 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:08.920 I thought they said lamb and the the uh the 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.520 wife of the of the husband and wife pair here. 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:13.720 She was like, oh, that's all right, it happens all 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:18.120 the time, and the and you know, that's that's that's reasonably. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:19.880 She was like, oh, that's happened to us. But the 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.200 man he was, he was angry and he like grabbed 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:25.919 it and he was like making evils at me, like 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.359 I was trying to steal his food. And as he 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.600 marched off, trying to remember what was it he was saying, 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.560 he was not saying good day, sir. He was saying oh, 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.960 he was saying bye bye. He was he was like 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.360 spitefully saying bye bye to me, which is something I 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.840 had never heard before. I've never heard bye bye used 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.159 as a so aggressively. But it was a very weird experience. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:48.320 And I guess if I'm going to try and put 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.159 myself in in in his shoes, if he thought that 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.040 I was actually trying to to break in line and 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:59.080 just randomly steal whatever food and coffee he had ordered, um, 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.360 then it's kind It's kind of like cutting in line 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.400 can be equated to theft, like if everybody's in a 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.520 line to get the same thing at a store, like 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.640 it's a lemonade stand, they only sell the lemonade. If 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.080 someone cuts in front of me, then they are on 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.280 some level stealing my lemonade. I don't know. It's amazing 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:20.120 that even at the level of remove of you describing 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:25.279 an experience that you almost had but didn't. I felt 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.040 the dragon flies, you know, a light in my stomach, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.080 Like it was just just just terror at the idea 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.440 of such a faux paw right, I mean, because I 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.080 guess it does gollustrate two different energies like we we 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.320 I think a lot of us, if not most of us, 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:44.200 have that fear of transgressing the social norm of standing 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.839 in line and waiting on food and service. But on 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.159 the other hand, uh, you know, sometimes we're we're extra 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.880 on guard against violators of those social norms, so it 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.559 can create very weird and uneven energy. Yeah, the idea 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.480 of accidentally cutting in line is just horrifying to me, 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.800 Like the idea that I might do that is enough 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.360 to to cause that panic, like I'm about to you know, 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:10.840 go on stage and speak in public or something that 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.159 level of of apprehension. And I think we saw probably 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.200 a lot of this during the pandemic because a lot 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.240 of places that depended more on interior spaces had to 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.960 suddenly depend on exterior spaces, which means lines that might 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:28.159 be better managed in an entirely indoors or in partially 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:33.279 partially indoors environment were suddenly left to exist entirely outside 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.919 the establishment. And I've seen cases of this where like, 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.480 clearly this was not what was intended. So the the 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:44.120 resulting line situation is maybe more confusing or counterintuitive, and 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.880 people fall you know, show up and fall into it 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.920 and and maybe like miss where they're supposed to stand, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:57.200 creates confusion, creates more opportunity for misunderstandings. So what we're 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.920 observing is that at least among lots of people, there 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:06.000 is a deep, powerful commitment to upholding the norms of 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.800 the single file, first come, first serve line for all 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.200 different kinds of UH services and access to things. And 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.240 when you observe this level of commitment to a norm, 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.600 I think it's very easy to assume that maybe lining 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.680 up single file for your turn at something is a deep, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:28.400 almost biologically mandated behavior that goes back as far as 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.520 recorded history and as universal across cultures. But you should 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:36.160 always be cautious about drawing conclusions like that, because it 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.840 turns out, in the case of the single file, first come, 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.840 first serve line, this is absolutely not the case. There 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.880 are a lot of fascinating features of of waiting in line, 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.080 or queueing as it's more often referred to in the 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:51.240 scientific literature UH, and we'll get into more of those 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.320 as as we discussed this topic for the next couple 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.240 of episodes. But one of the fascinating things is that 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:01.360 queuing is to a large extent, historically and culturally contingent. 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.720 Not everybody gets in line for things, and even in 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:09.239 cultures where we do we haven't always done it that way. Yeah, 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.360 Queuing is it's it's a pretty interesting phenomenon because on 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.920 one level, we often see this behavior as a means 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.960 of self organizing, sometimes via non human directions such as 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.440 signs or ropes. There's not you know, there's not a 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:22.920 person there to yell at you if you get out 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.880 of line. Other times there is a person there to 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.880 yell at you, um, and such as with say T 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.120 s A. Agents who you know they're doing an important job, 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.000 but a lot of times they're not shy about raising 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.320 their voice. Uh. And other times it's just out of 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.079 necessity in cases where there are no rules, but there 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.720 is a social pressure to form a queue of some sort, 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.400 you know, where people realize like there's no there's nothing 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.840 to indicate how we should line up in order to 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.079 to enter an establishment or get up to the register, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.000 So people just figure it out on their own, sometimes poorly, 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.760 sometimes with like the line going completely across the sidewalk 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.320 so that people can't cut through. Things like that, And 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.199 then oftentimes you see someone having to come out and say, 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.040 let's actually make the line go against the side of 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.240 the building, et cetera. Yeah, but I think one thing 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.880 that's pretty amazing about lines is that if you're in, 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.120 if you're in culturated in lines, if queuing is a 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.560 part of your culture and your upbringing, it's amazing how 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:22.160 regularly people spontaneously organized into lines and how little problem 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.040 they have with it overall. Yeah, I mean, and ultimately 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.199 comes down to a basic reality. Some come first by 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.240 necessity in order to assure everyone proceeds, and a lot 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.760 of times that is a first come, first serve situation. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.600 Whoever is first gets to stand in line first. Um, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.160 and it just avoids chaos, right Yeah. But of course, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.920 while queuing can seem very fair and democratic, though though 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:47.800 in the in the UK it was, it was even 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.360 accused of it was accused of being a product of socialism. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:52.840 I found an interesting paper about that. Maybe we'll get 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.400 into that more later. Um, we have no shortage of 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.600 ways to make queuing less of an even a fair 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.480 Various rules always seem to exist to allow people to legally, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.680 you know, within the social contract, to legally break line, 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.520 to form separate lines, faster lines, etcetera. So it can 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.920 often depend on where you are in the line and 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.240 who you were and who you are in the line, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.600 what you're waiting for, etcetera. Uh. To determine exactly how 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:24.640 fair this whole system seems, though, I find something that's 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:29.840 interesting is that if there are standing line breaking mechanics 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:34.280 in place, uh, those mechanics are often hidden from view 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.439 in one way or another. Like the institution that has 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.120 the line that that allows some kind of organized line 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.640 breaking for preferred waiters. Uh, Like they try to keep 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.520 it sort of separate so people don't see somebody just 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.120 cutting straight in front of everybody else. But but not 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.120 at the airport, um, you know, because it's basically like, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:54.880 all right, do we have any babies, Okay, let's get 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.040 some babies on board. Okay, how about old people, soldiers? Okay, 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.720 rich people? Do you have any rich people in the group? 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.040 You know? It's it's it. It's not how they do it, obviously, 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.800 but but sometimes they can smack of that, especially if 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.040 you were in like loading group, you know, thirteen or whatever. Um, 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.000 I guess there's no way to hide it. If it's 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.960 an airplane, there's just this one access point. Everybody's waiting 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.839 in the same place. But when it's possible, I think 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:20.640 a lot of places really do like to keep it 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.720 keep it sort of out of you in some way. Yeah, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.880 I will say at airports I've been to, they'll often 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:27.559 have to have it set up. So the t S 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.840 A pre check line, uh is is maybe it's maybe 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:32.400 like a little less obvious, but at the same time, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.520 like something like the t S A pre check line 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.120 is something they want, well, they want participants to take 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.000 advantage off. So you don't want to ride it completely. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.040 Uh So I kind of like with your fast pass 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.520 at an amusement park. You don't want it to make 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.120 you don't want to make everyone miserable, but you do 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.800 want to sell fast passes. Um So, I guess you 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.360 don't want to sell exclusively fast passes. So, but I 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.199 imagine that's worked out in the uh in the price 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.920 gauge and all. Have you ever read the stuff about 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.480 the the alleged I mean, I I don't know this 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.800 is true for sure, but it is at least alleged 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.200 that some amusement parks think of wait times not just 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.959 as something that's necessary, you know, because everybody can't ride 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.439 the roller coaster at the same time, but also as 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.679 something that extends the perceived value of what there is 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.959 to do at the amusement park because if you could 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.920 just ride every roller coaster in order, you know what, 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.240 You've got like an hour of fun there, and then 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.679 then there's nothing else to do. You've already done everything. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.800 So by having people wait in line for things, that's 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.439 not only a necessity, it also allows you to stretch 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.079 out the perception of having fun over the course of 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.440 an entire day. So people are like, Wow, I got 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.120 to do this all day. It was really great. Huh yeah, 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.720 I don't know. Um. I mean the thing about amusement 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:46.640 from for my money, I don't want to go from 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.920 roller coaster to roller coaster because that will make me sick. 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.240 I need some time to settle down. I also kind 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.480 of like a certain amount of anticipation building up to 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.920 the ride, and some rides you're nicer. Amusement parks tend 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.920 to do a really good job of making your your 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.720 way more pleasant, uh you know, or or out there. 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.880 Another specific example I'll point out is the nether World 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:13.160 Haunted attraction here in the Atlanta area. Uh. Often you'll 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:14.800 be a long line, there'll be some sort of fast 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:19.199 PAS scenario, but you'll end up going through a museum 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.800 of the haunted attraction as part of the line waiting experience, 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.439 which is that kind of thing I really appreciate, um, 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.520 you know, where it makes the line a little more 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.839 part of the experience and not just this dull thing 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.120 you're doing in order to have the experience. Yeah. I 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.280 have not been to a lot of amusement parks. Uh, 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.480 maybe not any as an adult that I can remember. 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.080 I don't know, maybe maybe I'll think of an exception, 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.120 but I remember as a child going like Universal Studios, Florida, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.440 and one thing that that they did something like that, 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.320 They're We're saying, you're waiting in line for the Jaws ride, 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.600 and they've got a kind of backstory for you. So 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.720 they've got TVs playing things that set up the ride. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.360 And I think something similar was true of like the 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.480 Back to the Future ride, Like the ride has a 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.880 back story and as you're going through the line, you're 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:08.440 watching TV stations playing various segments of the back story. Yeah. Now, 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.160 it's interesting with both the Haunted attraction and the amusement 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.679 park ride. Essentially these are examples of especially with the 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.240 Hunted attraction, you're standing in line to walk through in 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.280 a line, and in the case of the ride, you're 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.120 standing in line to go in a circle and then 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.360 leave and continue your line out of the the exhibit. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:27.320 But a lot of times we're talking about standing in 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.080 line for resources. Uh. And and this this got me thinking. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:32.880 I was looking around a little bit of the animal world, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.720 and you'll you'll often read something about something like queuing 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.720 in terms of dominance among social animals. For instance, I 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.960 was reading to account about how some baboons, Uh, there's 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.720 something with some with baboons, there's something like queuing that 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.240 has arrived at after food is discovered, and it's something 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.320 that's governed by the dominant primate in the group. So 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.800 it's not a very fair system of queuing by most 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.960 human standards, but it is a system and it prevents 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.240 the need for overt conflict and strug goal amid these individuals. Right. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.720 So it's important to make a distinction because anytime you 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.360 have multiple people trying to get access to the same 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.360 thing and they can't all access that at the same time, 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.440 you've got to have some system for ordering access. But 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.040 what we're talking about when we say waiting in line 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:23.360 is almost always understood to mean the relatively egalitarian, first come, 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.840 first serve, single file line, which is very which is 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.640 very different than what the baboons are doing. Yeah, and 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.200 oh man, we haven't even got into the spacing of lines, 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.880 which of course has become certainly more of a thing 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.640 during pandemic times. Uh, sometimes obeyed as part of the 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:43.240 social norm, sometimes disturbingly ignored. Uh. But prior to the 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:44.920 pandemic you at least saw it with A T M 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.880 S where there was this kind of agreed upon social 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.280 contract that if you were waiting in line behind me 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:52.800 at the A t M and I'm at the A 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:54.880 t M, you will like stand back a certain amount 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.080 us it would be impolite, if not threatening, to stand 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.840 too close to me during this transaction. What's that line 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.480 from the SNL song The Creep? I think it's something 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.440 like when you want to make a friend at the 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.120 A T M do the creep? Oh yeah, where they're 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.480 all dressed like John Waters, and I believe John Waters 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.640 makes an appearance in that. Yeah, But the point being 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.760 you don't approach people too closely at the A t M. Yeah. Um. 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.080 Now this is kind of a stretch, but I admit, 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.760 but this got me thinking about another key example of 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.400 line formation among humans, not the vertical lines of cues 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.320 or people following a path, but the horizontal lines of 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.440 rank and file armed combatants. Uh, the sort of ordered 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:35.840 approach to the movement and action of human beings that 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.440 has been vitally important in the history of warfare, because 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.280 on one level, it's entirely unlike forming a line to 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.000 use an a t M or to get buy a 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.520 hot dog, et cetera. But there is also a sense 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.720 of it there as well. I think if you, you know, 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.080 if you sort of open your mind and compare the 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.600 two where a discipline system is in place to ensure 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.800 peak performance of the group, benefiting the whole group but 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.680 also the individuals within the group. You know what I'm say, Oh, 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:02.880 I see that comparison. Did you bring this up because 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.080 you've been reading that blog about military history and analyzing 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:10.440 Tolkien that you sent me? Yes, it is no, no, no, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.280 that that's really good because one of the things you 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.400 sent me was an article or at least a quote 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.639 about how the thing you see with medieval style or 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.160 ancient style battles in movies where it's just an all 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.679 out melee, you know, free for all, or everybody's just 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.800 fighting random combatants in whatever order it seems to occur 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:29.960 to them that this is not at least how battles 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.040 were supposed to go in in ancient combat, where you'd 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.439 be using spears or swords handheld weapons. I mean that 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.359 in most cases you want to be fighting in formation 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.560 or you're losing. Yeah. That that blog is a collection 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.880 of unmitigated pedantry by military historian Bret C. Devereaux. And yeah, 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.560 he makes the point where if if it's broken out 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.760 into just chaotic melee, uh, that means the battle has 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.399 already gone poorly. And if if you're if you're you know, 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.320 you may have already lost at that point, you probably 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.960 have already lost. But if you if you're gonna win, 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.120 then you haven't broke rank. Like the winners don't break rank, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.080 they stick together and stay in formation. And I think 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.080 the same is true of standing in line. Like if 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.080 people start breaking rank, if people start panicking, then then 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.159 it's all over. Like nobody gets to use the A T. 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.919 M machine if this order breaks down, nobody gets to 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.240 buy a hot dog or a cup of coffee, nobody 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.640 gets to board the plane. Yeah, of course, so nobody 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.399 enjoys waiting in line. But you've got to acknowledge that 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.840 waiting in a first come, first serve line for the 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.080 A t M is much better than using the shoving 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.840 to the front method. Yeah, I guess unless you're really 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.399 good at shoving. But to be serious for a minute, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.399 if you already use the shoving to the front method 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.040 and you do actually get to the A t M, 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.360 what happens to you once you get your cash? I mean, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.120 this is a recurring problem. I think if you don't 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.119 have a well organized system for for getting people access 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.359 to service points. Yeah, if you totally dismantle the social 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.159 norms leading up to the A t M, then what 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.879 about the rest of the social norms surrounding the whole experience? 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.680 Though I do want to say that this doesn't necessarily 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.359 mean that the the single file, first come, first serve 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.520 line is the only way to organize access to things. 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.840 There are other ways that people have come up with 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.159 sort of social rules for organizing access. This is just 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.399 a very common one in the modern world, in the 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:22.280 Western world, especially thank thank thank Now. I was wondering 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.680 about a question which was how much of our lives 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.119 do we on average spend waiting in line? And I 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.440 had some trouble finding a really solid, well reasoned answer 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:34.720 to this. But there is one thing, at least the 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.720 closest thing I've come across, which I found in an 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:42.000 article by Anna Swanson called what really drives you crazy 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.160 about waiting in line? It actually isn't the weight at all. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.720 This was published in the Washington Post, and for this article, 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.880 Swanson interviews Richard Larson, who is a professor who studies 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.080 queuing theory at m i T. That's actually an area 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.439 of study. Now, it's a little bit broader than just 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.080 people standing in per person on their feet in a 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.399 single file line. It's more about like about like ordering 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.439 access to things, and they're all kinds of mathematical theories 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.159 about how to maximize efficiency in systems that use various 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.000 forms of queueing and so forth, and so Larsen studies 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.639 that type of thing. But Larson estimates that quote altogether 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.040 some people spend a year or two of their lives 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.240 waiting in line. Now, a big note here is that 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.680 the some people is about the best you can do there, 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.040 because the amount of time people spend waiting in line 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.480 will have enormous variants depending on what culture you live in, 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:35.720 what kind of business you do, whether you live in 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.560 a city or in the country, etcetera. But for this 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.399 common guess of one to two years, how would you 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.800 arrive at that? Well, Larson's research makes him think that 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.040 for many Americans at least the majority of their Q 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:54.199 time is actually spent waiting in traffic congestion, which is 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.960 interesting because I wouldn't have thought about traffic as a 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.720 form of waiting in line. But I guess by almost 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.560 every way of defining it, really it is. Yeah. I mean, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.400 we may not think about it as much, but we are, 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.000 you know, proceeding in lines. And granted there are varied lines, 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.199 there's a certain amount of cutting in line that is, 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:15.920 that is very much part of the legal process. Though 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.399 you do see breakdowns in this where it becomes super obvious, 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.439 you know, where like say, situations where a lane is 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.320 closed ahead and everyone needs to merge to the right, 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:28.800 and you'll have some people that are like, Nope, I'm 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.240 going to go as far in the left lane as possible, 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.720 and then I shall insist on being let into the 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.520 appropriate lane. Stuff like that. That'll, at least I know 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:41.000 it in me, it'll raise the accusation of of line cutter. 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.840 You know, I'll be you know, I won't actually shake 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:45.760 my fist or anything. But I'm inside, are we thinking 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.439 that person? They are no good? They are they are 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:52.120 breaking the rules here. So in practice I hate it too, 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.280 But I have a terrible piece of wisdom on the 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.040 subject that I'm sure we'll cause your polite and orderly 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.920 mind to revolt, but I have to share it. So 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:06.520 among experts who study traffic queuing, the late merge is 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:11.040 widely considered to be superior to the early merge. Basically, 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.840 the thinking is that, if say a two lane highway 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:17.840 is narrowing down to one lane for construction, drivers should 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.160 use all the lanes available to them for as long 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.520 as they can, and then take turns one by one, 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.720 merging into the bottle neck. Now, this doesn't necessarily move 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.240 the cars through any faster than an early merge system, 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.760 but it's still is more efficient because it reduces the 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.280 backward stretching length of the traffic jam, though I did 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:40.960 find at least one case where it was found to 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.560 speed up the traffic moving through the bottle neck. There 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.000 was a New York Times article from October by Christopher 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.640 Melee about late merging, and it's cited a study from 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:55.240 the Colorado Department of Transportation that found late merging and 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.600 work zones led to a fifteen percent increase in the 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.879 volume of cars passing through, and that it cut the 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.439 length of the backup on the road in half. But 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.879 either way, it's also considered superior because it's safer since 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.840 the merging one at a time in the zipper like 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.440 fashion tends to happen at a predictable way at lower 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.359 speeds than early merging does. So so I hate it too. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.200 And when I see somebody running down the open lane 0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.760 and merging late, it looks selfish. If you do it, 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.439 it feels selfish when you see it. I'm like, you jerk. 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.639 But but it's probably, unfortunately, what everybody should be doing 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.200 for the greater good. Well, I have a hard time 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.639 imagining that the person that the people that I often 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.520 see doing this are doing it because they're they're well 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.160 acquainted with queuing theory, and then they're like, I'm doing 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.119 the responsible thing. Don't look at me, weird, you know. 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:51.600 I imagine they're they're also being aggressive in other aspects 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.760 of their driving experience, right, But then again, queuing theory 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.120 professors they have to drive to So perhaps the last 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.760 person that I judge how actually was Richard Larson. I 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:06.639 don't know that's quite possible. Were you in Massachusetts at 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:09.000 the time, No, but you know, maybe maybe he was 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:11.439 going to Florida. I don't know, yeah, but anyway, So 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:14.640 the the idea is that the majority of time that 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.920 people spend waiting in line, on average, Again, there's gonna 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.440 be huge variants from person to person, but on average 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:23.800 is probably waiting in traffic congestion, which is in a 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:27.280 way waiting in line because you are queued up for 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.760 access to something. In this case, what you're usually queued 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:33.760 up for access to is a a bottleneck in the 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.040 throughput of the traffic on the street. So how do 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:39.359 you get to the one to two years number? Well, uh, 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:43.000 Larson explains as follows. Suppose that a home to work 0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:45.560 trip on a Sunday morning takes you thirty minutes, but 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.640 on a working weekday it takes you sixty minutes. That 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:52.200 corresponds to thirty minutes each day each way of traffic 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.919 caused queuing, sixty minutes of traffic queuing each day, or 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:59.520 three minutes each week. If you make reasonable assumptions, about 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:01.920 five day is a week of driving like this both 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:04.840 ways for an entire career. Then one comes up with 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:07.679 figures of one to two years of your waking life 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:11.520 spent in queues, mostly rush hour traffic cues and slowness, 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.520 which is equivalent to queuing. So that's very back of 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:17.040 the envelope, and that's just traffic, but it does make 0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:20.720 you realize how much of modern American life is going 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:26.520 to be characterized by simply waiting for access to things. Uh. Though, 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:28.680 It's also interesting to me because I was thinking, well, 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:31.919 some people might quibble with whether traffic actually counts as 0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:35.680 queuing or not, and and that raised the question why 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.760 it's sort of in itself interesting, Why would people not 0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:41.840 think of traffic as a form of waiting in line? 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.320 I would say it is. It's definitely waiting in line. 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:48.359 It's even more dangerous waiting in line because you're in 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:53.439 a large vehicle that can cause fatalities. You are you 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:55.400 are also, I mean, without even getting into the whole 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:57.720 issue of road rage, you're in a You're in an 0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:02.240 area where we see the social norms sometimes take on 0:26:02.320 --> 0:26:05.160 different forms, and it becomes it can become more difficult 0:26:05.200 --> 0:26:09.200 to associate those other cars with individual people in ways 0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:13.159 that you don't see in an actual in person line. Um, 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:15.040 I guess on one level, I'm tempted to say, well, 0:26:15.040 --> 0:26:16.320 if you're in your car, at least you can listen 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:19.320 to a podcast. But of course with mobile technology you 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:21.120 can you can if you if you think to bring 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.199 your headphones, you can do so in a in an 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:26.439 actual in person line as well. So I don't know sure. Okay, 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:29.639 here's another queuing theory question that that I've wondered about. 0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:32.560 Let's say you're waiting in line for a number of 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:35.680 service points, maybe three bank tellers. There are a couple 0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:39.600 of different ways that the bank can organize the waiting process. 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.600 Uh So, for example, they can have individual lines for 0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:46.359 each bank teller and you just pick which line to 0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:50.320 get in, or there can be one single snaking line 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:52.280 and once you get to the front of it, you 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:55.119 go to the next available teller. I was wondering, is 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:57.800 it actually is one of these actually more efficient than 0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:00.439 the other, or are they about the same? Well, it 0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:02.680 turns out there's an answer to that, and it's sort 0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:04.280 of what you would guess if you think about it. 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:06.879 This also was by way of Richard Larson in that 0:27:06.960 --> 0:27:11.320 same Washington Post article on average weight times for the 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.960 two systems are about the same, so you know, you 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:15.920 average it out over a lifetime, it's not going to 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:19.560 make a major difference. But there is much more variance 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.680 for weight times in the multi line system, so there 0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:25.040 is a greater chance that you get through either very 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.119 quickly or you get stuck for a long time. So 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.200 I think the individual line system can be thought of 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:33.639 more as the gamblers system. Right when you want to 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.080 roll the dice on your weight time, that's the better 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:37.560 way to go. But if you want to have a 0:27:37.600 --> 0:27:41.199 more predictable experience, the serpentine line is better. So of 0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:44.159 course the having multi the multi line system is going 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:46.920 to be the one where you inevitably end up saying 0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:49.600 to yourself, oh I picked the wrong line, or perhaps 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.359 you say, oh I picked the correct line. But um 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:54.280 so I guess the experience is going to be a 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:56.240 little more different. Is there gonna be a little different 0:27:56.240 --> 0:27:59.640 depending on it Now, of course, it's not actually possible 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:02.119 that that it would really be the case over the 0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:04.840 course of a life that the other line always moves faster. 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:07.320 So the fact that the other line always moves faster 0:28:07.400 --> 0:28:10.320 really tells us something about human psychology, right that we 0:28:10.400 --> 0:28:15.480 tend to notice more when things are not going our way. Now. 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:18.040 The many short lines approach, of course, also lends itself 0:28:18.080 --> 0:28:20.800 to tiered systems stuff like t s, a pre check 0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:24.600 or speed pass an amusement park. Uh. And depending on 0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:27.159 how this is arranged, it might make for increased deficiency 0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:31.320 uh and or gives some individuals or groups an unfair advantage. 0:28:31.560 --> 0:28:33.359 Or maybe it's a fair advantage. It really depends on 0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:36.960 your vantage point on these particular incidents. Uh Huh. I 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:39.800 wanted to go to an historical example on this. I 0:28:39.800 --> 0:28:42.080 was looking around and I was thinking, well, you know, queuing. 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:43.960 You know, given that this is something that people have 0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:46.920 had to do for a long time, like, but you 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:49.800 do see some cultural differences. What's a what's a nice 0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:53.440 like ancient example of queuing? And I found a pretty 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.080 good one. I think it's um, it's from the ancient world, 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:59.680 and it requires to visit, uh, the Oracle of Delphie. 0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:02.280 Now we've we've I don't think we've ever really talked 0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:05.120 about Delphi in depth on the show before. I think 0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:08.840 it came up briefly in our Bicameral Mind episode. But 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:10.600 we could totally do a whole series on it because 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:12.480 there's a lot of interesting angles. You know, you have 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:17.520 mythology history. There's also there's a whole chemical discussion to 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:20.200 be had as well. Oh yeah, about what like huffing 0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:24.040 volcanic gases possibly or something. Yeah, but he But here's 0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:26.920 the basics. The ancient Greeks considered Delphi to be the 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:30.000 center of the world, and it's here that the the 0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:33.720 Omphallus of Delphi mentioned in our previous Listener Male episode. 0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:35.600 This is where you would find this artifact. There's is 0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:39.600 supposed to be the stone um of the god Yes, 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:42.640 I believe, fed to chron Us in in lieu of 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:45.280 his own son Zeus, so that Zeus could could live 0:29:45.360 --> 0:29:48.760 instead of being munched. Yeah. So this artifact found its 0:29:48.800 --> 0:29:50.480 home there and it served as kind of the navel 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:53.000 of the world. But it was also the location of 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:56.200 this vital temple of Delphi where one might consult an 0:29:56.240 --> 0:30:00.520 oracle about the future or the past. Uh. Now oracle 0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:04.000 would be someone known as the Pythia, and this would 0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:07.480 be a female conduit for the god Apollo. Uh, someone 0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:11.560 serving as the oracle, and you would see people arrive 0:30:11.680 --> 0:30:15.520 here from all over the essentially the known world, in 0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:19.320 the regions surrounding Greece. Uh, they would pursue matters of 0:30:19.440 --> 0:30:22.400 love state craft. You would have ambassadors showing up to 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.320 see to determine, like what course of action should be 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:27.160 taken at a at a state level or you know 0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:30.560 what accounts for state level at the time. Businesses. Uh, 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:32.240 you know, if you have business inquiries, you might go 0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:34.640 So a lot of people were coming in. You need 0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:36.680 to find out if your son is going to depose 0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:39.760 and kill you. Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. Uh. 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:43.160 And there are various origin stories concerning the oracle here, 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:46.200 but the one which was given in the first century 0:30:46.240 --> 0:30:50.120 BC by the writer uh Diodorus, was that a goat 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.360 discovered a cave and the fumes from the cave caused 0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:56.600 him to become untethered from the now and to experience 0:30:56.680 --> 0:30:59.880 both the future and the past, thus the establishment of 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:03.160 a temple and uh, you know, and arranging a particular 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:06.959 individual to to serve as the oracle, and providing an 0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:11.240 orderly means for people to seek these sacred divinations. Okay, 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:13.280 So it seems like what you've got here is a 0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:15.640 service that a lot of people are going to want 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:18.440 and they can't all get at the same time. Yeah, 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:20.760 And so you've got to manage that, so yeah, a 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:22.760 lot of people coming in. It becomes a major center 0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:26.240 of banking and commerce. And I found a really interesting 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:28.320 book by an author by the by the name of 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:32.080 Michael Scott titled Delphi, a History of the Center of 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:37.040 the Ancient World published and as Scott explains, they turned 0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:39.120 to a system of queuing. So I want to read 0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:42.440 a quote from this book. Quote. The consultants, who would 0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:45.360 have had to arrive, probably some days before the appointed 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:49.160 consultation day, would now play their part. They first had 0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:52.680 to purify themselves with water from the springs of Delphi. Next, 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:55.560 they had to organize according to the strict rules governing 0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:59.920 the order of consultation. Local Delphians always had the first 0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.120 right of audience. What followed them was a system of 0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:06.800 queuing that prioritize first Greeks whose city or tribe was 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:10.600 part of Delphi's supreme governing Council, then all other Greeks, 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:14.520 and finally non Greeks. But within each section there was 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.280 also a way to skip to the front, a system 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:21.240 known as promanteau promantea. The right to consult the oracle 0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:24.760 before others could be awarded to individuals or cities by 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:27.560 the city of Delphi as an expression of the closer 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:31.680 relationship between them, or as thanks for particular actions as 0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:34.959 oracle pre check exactly. Yeah, and so your city might 0:32:35.000 --> 0:32:37.840 be awarded promantia, for instance, for paying for a new 0:32:37.880 --> 0:32:41.080 altar or something to that effect. But but it's interesting. 0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:43.160 It is kind of like a speed pass or one 0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:44.880 of those. If you ever go to a place where 0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:48.040 they have special parking places for the donors that that 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:50.240 helped fund a like a I don't know, performing arts 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:52.640 center or botanical garden, that's sort of things kind of 0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:55.440 like that. But it also shows that for a very 0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:58.280 long time, human civilization has had to work out how 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:02.000 to manage people as they move to and through various systems, 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:05.080 especially if it's something like this where there's there's only 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:07.680 the one oracle, like they can't see everybody at once. 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:10.680 You need a system in place and um and it. 0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:13.200 But it's ultimately going to be more complicated than just 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:15.680 a first come, first serve, that's right. And this brings 0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:19.240 us back to the idea that while the the single file, 0:33:19.400 --> 0:33:22.640 first come, first serve line might feel like it, you know, 0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:25.240 it might feel to us like it is so deep 0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:28.120 and so obvious that's just a part of our biology. 0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:32.240 Once again, it's something that is somewhat culturally and historically contingent, 0:33:32.320 --> 0:33:35.120 and it's it's not something that was all that's always 0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:38.400 in place everywhere in history. I was reading some articles 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:42.480 trying to find like where this convention really got popular, 0:33:42.720 --> 0:33:45.320 and one thing I found was a number of articles 0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:48.680 about a book by an author named David Andrews called 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:51.920 Why Does the Other Line Always Move Faster? That seems 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.480 like kind of a pop history of queuing. And Andrew's 0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:58.560 argues at least that the first come, first serve, single 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:03.360 file queuing us system is mostly a recent phenomenon and 0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:07.400 that it actually has its origins in the French Revolution. Uh. 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.840 He deduces this in part from the nineteenth century Scottish 0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:14.400 historian and S. A. S. Thomas Carlyle, who wrote extensively 0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:17.719 about the French Revolution in a three volume chronicle that 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:21.160 was first published in eighteen thirty seven. And one of 0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:25.759 the things that Carlisle observed about post revolutionary France was 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:29.279 the change in modes of customer service. He said that 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:33.200 in their bakeries in Paris, customers would line up in 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:37.320 single file for service in what we're called queues q 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:41.440 meant tale in Old French, a tale like an animal's tale, 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:45.600 originally coming from the Latin coda or cauta, and quoted 0:34:45.640 --> 0:34:48.600 in an ap article I was reading about this book, uh, 0:34:48.640 --> 0:34:52.000 that there were basically political connotations to the idea of 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.360 waiting in queue for service. That it was supposed to 0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:58.799 be a demonstration of commitment to the values of the 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:03.120 French revolutions logan of liberty, equality and fraternity. It meant 0:35:03.239 --> 0:35:06.719 patiently waiting on your turn, you know, no matter what 0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:10.239 your job was or your station. Uh. And and Carlisle 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:15.359 summed it up in the sentence, patriotism stands in Q. Yeah, 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:18.200 this is this is interesting how there are different ways 0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:19.840 of looking at the line and the sort of the 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:23.160 democratic nature of the line, because again you'll also see 0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:27.399 accusations of the line as a as a manifestation of socialism. 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:30.720 You'll see it critiqued. Uh. This was a common critique 0:35:30.760 --> 0:35:34.399 of of the Soviet Union back that you're talking about 0:35:34.440 --> 0:35:37.640 the bread lines and having to wait in line for bread. Uh, 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:40.360 you know, as if it were you know, it's a 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:44.000 sign of something not working within the institution. Well, I 0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:46.200 think the problem there, like to the extent that that 0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:48.799 is a problem. The problem there is scarcity, not the 0:35:48.840 --> 0:35:51.760 fact that it's a first come, first serve system for access, 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:55.719 but like the line became emblematic of the scarcity, right, 0:35:55.920 --> 0:35:58.719 And this actually leads, I think into a that's an 0:35:58.719 --> 0:36:02.839 excellent lead into our discussion of queuing psychology, because yeah, 0:36:02.840 --> 0:36:05.759 how do you perceive the line before you were in it? 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:07.839 How do you perceive the line once you are in it? 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:10.759 Because let's say you're you know, you're you're you're out 0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:12.400 and about and you're like, oh, I think I'm going 0:36:12.440 --> 0:36:14.160 to drop in at this coffee place. I'm gonna get 0:36:14.160 --> 0:36:16.600 a cup of coffee. And as you approach, you see 0:36:16.600 --> 0:36:19.080 that there is a long line or you know, a 0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:22.239 longish line anyway to acquire said coffee. So how are 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:24.239 you supposed to view that? You could view it like saying, 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:26.760 oh good, they have a system. They have a system 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:28.400 for me to get coffee. I can go get in 0:36:28.480 --> 0:36:30.879 line and I can totally acquire it. You know, maybe 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:33.600 it looks like the lines moving, or you might say, 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:36.680 oh man, there's a line. Maybe they're running out of coffee. 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.520 Maybe this is a scarity scarcity situation, or perhaps you're 0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:44.200 concerned maybe they're understaffed, maybe they can't properly attend to 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:47.520 everybody who wants coffee today. You know. There there's so 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:51.520 many different ways of viewing it and um and certainly 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:54.600 when you start looking at the like the marketing research 0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:57.600 on it, it is readily identified that there there's an 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:01.040 economic cost and a psychological cost to standing in line, 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:04.640 you know, because everybody in line that's waiting is somebody 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:08.080 that you you you generally have not yet um tended 0:37:08.120 --> 0:37:10.399 to uh. You know. Granted you can have multiple line 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:13.160 system like the line to UM to to order and 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:15.640 then the line to get your food, etcetera. UM, but 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:18.719 there's a potential economic cost associated with that line, and 0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:21.279 then there's a psychological cost. What is that individual doing 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:23.919 while they were waiting in line? Are they frustrated? Are 0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:26.319 they are they angry? Are they at pulling out their 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:28.719 phones and going to one of the review sites so 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.880 they can you know, leave a nasty review because they 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:34.279 haven't received their coffee yet. Yeah, exactly. So a ton 0:37:34.320 --> 0:37:37.479 of the psychological research about queuing has actually been done 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:39.640 in the context, like you say, of like marketing and 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:43.759 consumer behavior research and in the business world. But even 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:46.640 in that context, there's a lot of really interesting stuff 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:50.080 that's been found. Some of it, I think we'll ring 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:53.320 true to your experiences. Some of it might be more surprising. 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:55.400 One of the things that really rings true to my 0:37:55.480 --> 0:38:00.600 experience is that people experience weights as longer and is 0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:04.080 less pleasant when they don't know how long the weight 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:07.200 is going to be and they don't understand the reason 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:10.319 for the way that. That's like the real that's the 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:14.360 red zone. That's really bad. Yeah, I have to admit 0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:16.879 the place that I got coffee this morning, though though 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:18.920 I love it it's a great place, is a similar 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:22.640 situation because there was no visible line to order, but 0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:24.279 it was just a lot of people waiting on their 0:38:24.400 --> 0:38:27.120 order outside and so a lot of the time. And 0:38:27.200 --> 0:38:29.040 of course I went into it having read some of 0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:30.600 these studies, so I was thinking a lot about our 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:34.720 recording today, um and maybe had a little extra AMMO 0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:39.080 to to consider whilst waiting. But yeah, your mind starts wondering, Okay, 0:38:39.120 --> 0:38:41.319 I wonder what's going on here? Man? Are they understaffed? 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:43.360 And you start looking at other people to see if 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:46.520 they're frustrated, and see how everyone is and and all. 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:50.040 Then you get suddenly in my case too I found 0:38:50.040 --> 0:38:52.319 myself worrying, Oh man, I think I'm about to get 0:38:52.320 --> 0:38:54.560 my coffee before these people who are here when I 0:38:54.600 --> 0:38:57.120 got here? Is that going to feel weird? Because then 0:38:57.160 --> 0:38:59.640 I'm sort of cutting in line. I mean not in 0:38:59.640 --> 0:39:02.000 a way it where I bear the blame, but in 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:04.480 a way that could still be socially awkward. You know. 0:39:04.880 --> 0:39:07.120 Oh well, this actually ties into one of the studies 0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:08.759 I wanted to mention today. Do you mind if I 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:10.839 cut right to this one real quick? You're gonna kind 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:13.680 of ahead of me and the outline for this episode. 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:15.400 I want to cut in line on the outline just 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:18.480 because it ties into what you just said. Well, this 0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:20.680 is going to be very brief. But one of the 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:24.239 questions I was wondering about is okay, so you just 0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.439 assume you know what fairness in queuing is, right, because 0:39:28.480 --> 0:39:31.400 when you see somebody like cutting in line, that is 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:34.560 obviously a violation of the fairness principle that you've got 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:36.720 in mind when you're when you're queuing up for something. 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:39.920 But there are other principles at work as well, And 0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:42.120 so there was a study I was looking at by 0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:46.920 Wrong Wrong Show and Deleep Soman in psychology and marketing, 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:50.000 in two thousand eight called consumers waiting in queues the 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:53.839 role of first order and second order justice. Uh. And 0:39:53.920 --> 0:39:57.760 so this looks at actually two different senses of justice 0:39:57.760 --> 0:40:00.920 about waiting in line. One is the sution is the 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:05.080 line being served according to a first in, first out principle, 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:08.799 I you know, in order, no cutting in line. And 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:12.680 the second principle is are people in line all waiting 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:17.040 approximately equal amounts of time? These two things are actually 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:20.520 not always coterminous, and sometimes they go against one another. 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:23.760 For example, if you're at a grocery store and somebody 0:40:23.840 --> 0:40:26.320 has a you know, huge cart full of tiny items, 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:29.080 they're buying the entire spice rack off the shelf or something, 0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:31.279 and they want to pay by check and they get 0:40:31.320 --> 0:40:33.440 in front of you in line, you might have to 0:40:33.480 --> 0:40:37.279 wait way more than the average customer. So that's one 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:40.839 type of unfairness you could perceive. But then, of course 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:42.800 the other thing would be, well, what if the store 0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:44.680 just said like, well, why don't you come in front 0:40:44.719 --> 0:40:47.759 of this person right? Uh, you know, even though they 0:40:47.800 --> 0:40:50.680 got there before you. And so the authors looked into 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.200 the question here, do do customers care about both of 0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:56.799 these things? They found that yes, people actually do care 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:00.200 about both of these types of fairness. But they also 0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:03.600 found that customers care about adherence to the first in, 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:07.240 first out principle more than they care about the equal 0:41:07.280 --> 0:41:11.680 waiting time principle. Ah So an individual with a large cart, 0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:15.120 they're likely to take more offense that at the the 0:41:15.880 --> 0:41:18.000 the person of the cash registers saying can we let 0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:20.960 that person with one item go ahead of you? Um. 0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:23.839 Whereas if it's a situation where you're approaching in your 0:41:23.920 --> 0:41:26.680 large cart and they say, actually, the person who was 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:28.480 ahead of you had to go back and get an item, 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:30.520 but now they're back, can they go ahead in front 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:32.680 of you? Then that you would you would probably be 0:41:32.719 --> 0:41:34.719 more okay with that because they were still ahead of 0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:37.160 you in line. Sorry, that's a little confilution. No, No, 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:39.000 that may well be an implication. I mean, I don't 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:41.280 know how this would always come because once you introduce 0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:44.960 real world scenarios that that like brings in some other things. 0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:47.759 But yeah, I'd say in general that that kind of 0:41:47.800 --> 0:41:50.239 principle could be true from this, Yeah, because there are 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:52.719 other social dynamics that come into play, right, Like if 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:56.040 you were a young, able bodied person with a large 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:59.200 cart and the person with one item is an elderly individual, 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.360 you know, then you're gonna perhaps be more inclined to 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:05.759 be like, oh, yes, please let let them go first. Yeah. 0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:08.280 And I think in general, people feel very differently about 0:42:09.000 --> 0:42:12.800 advantage that has been offered to someone else versus advantage 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.879 that has been given to someone else without your consent. Right, 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:18.640 the same person who would gladly let somebody with fewer 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:21.120 items in ahead of them in line if they if 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:23.520 it was their idea, might get really mad if the 0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:25.879 if the clerk said, you know what, why don't why 0:42:25.880 --> 0:42:28.120 doesn't this person go in front of you? Yeah? Yeah, 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:31.480 it wasn't my idea to let the like the weightlifter 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.439 who's buying one muscle milk go ahead of me, because 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:36.319 if I it was me, I'd be like, like, you know, 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:38.359 then then it's all right if I say, hey, why 0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:39.400 don't you go ahead of me? You just got the 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:41.080 one thing, but you have the cash radder person. The 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:44.080 cash riders should be saying, wait, let the muscle milk 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:46.919 buy or go first. He has only the one muscle milk. 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:49.680 We must honor this. But then to come back to 0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:52.000 our a t M example, the first in, first out 0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:55.160 principle might devolve into the shoving principle, right, and I 0:42:55.200 --> 0:42:57.200 don't want to shove with the muscle milk guy because 0:42:57.200 --> 0:43:06.600 he's pretty jack than Now here's another interesting spending all 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:08.760 of this. So, how does the presence of a line 0:43:09.000 --> 0:43:11.920 and our place in a line impact our perceived value 0:43:12.160 --> 0:43:16.719 of the thing we're waiting in line for? Be that thing? Uh, 0:43:16.760 --> 0:43:19.080 you know, it could be an experience who are waiting 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:21.240 to get on a line or or take a flight, 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:23.520 Or it could be an item we're buying. It could 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:25.839 be that cup of coffee that's scone, or that hot 0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:27.759 dog what have you. So I was looking at an 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:31.480 article from ten titled a silver lining of standing in 0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:34.680 line queuing increases value of products. This was published in 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:38.520 the Journal of Marketing Research by Minium Coup and uh 0:43:38.600 --> 0:43:42.680 a lit fish back, and they point out that, first 0:43:42.680 --> 0:43:45.360 of all, waiting in line obviously has both an economic 0:43:45.400 --> 0:43:48.320 cost and a psychological cost. Like we said, long lines 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:51.040 can send the message that something is popular and in demand, 0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:55.920 but lines can also impact customer UH satisfaction or impact 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:59.240 a business performance, and they point to several different studies 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:01.839 on this topic. They were particularly interested in the less 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:06.160 studied positive attributes of standing in line. So again, there's 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:08.439 no doubt that a line can send a signal about 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:11.120 the perceived value of the thing waiting at the end 0:44:11.160 --> 0:44:12.799 of the line. But they wanted to know how the 0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:17.840 experience of queuing affected expectations of enjoyment. This is interesting 0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:21.720 because it makes me think about cases where somebody makes 0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:25.719 certain instances of being willing to wait in line a 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:28.879 part of their sort of personal brand or identity. Like, 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:31.440 you know, you might be proud of the fact that 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:34.440 I waited overnight in line to be the first person 0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:37.240 to get tickets to see the new Star Wars movie 0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:39.759 or something, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, like 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:41.680 I am committing in a way, it's kind of like 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:45.560 proving like only someone this committed deserves to be first. 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:48.120 And uh, it's an interesting spent on the whole first 0:44:48.120 --> 0:44:51.200 come first surf scenario. So the authors here they say, quote, 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:55.839 we propose that looking behind and perceiving real or illusionary 0:44:55.920 --> 0:45:00.000 progress signals an increase in the product's value. As a result, 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:02.919 the consumer will not only expect to like, but also 0:45:03.040 --> 0:45:07.399 actually like the product more and increase his or her expenditure. 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.560 So again, the idea is you're really looking forward to 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:13.600 buying that apple. But then the experience of waiting in 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:18.040 line and seeing people behind you in line that makes 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:21.440 the your anticipation of enjoyment of that apple even greater. 0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:24.279 Oh yeah, it's got the seeing people behind you in line, 0:45:24.280 --> 0:45:26.520 more and more people lining up behind you, that makes 0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:29.160 you feel like, hey, yeah, I've really got in there 0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:31.920 at the right time. Yeah. So this is of course 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:35.640 in line with the sunk cost effect which the author's site. 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:38.360 The more time and effort that I've sunk into something, 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:41.239 the more fixed I'm going to be on the idea 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:43.440 that this was worth it, even if I've been burned 0:45:43.480 --> 0:45:45.840 in the past. So the thing you're waiting in line 0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:48.319 for then becomes more valuable than it was when you 0:45:48.360 --> 0:45:51.360 began waiting in line for it. So the study itself, 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.760 which is like a series of I think five studies total, 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:56.880 is relatively small, but the results are still interesting. And 0:45:56.920 --> 0:45:58.719 I'm not going to get into the methods of each 0:45:58.719 --> 0:46:01.359 one because you can imagine how they conducted this. They 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:03.600 had people stand in line and they uh and they 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:06.040 questioned them, and they manipulated things a little bit too 0:46:06.360 --> 0:46:08.960 to see, you know, how people reacted uh, And it's 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.120 it's pretty obvious from the results what they did. So 0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:14.640 Study one found that the perceived value of a bagel 0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:18.240 sandwich increased in keeping with the absolute number of people 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:21.759 behind the individual in line. Okay, so you see more 0:46:21.800 --> 0:46:24.759 people coming in behind you, you like your sandwich more 0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:27.960 and more, right now. Study to found that you could 0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:30.600 experiment with the number of people behind the individual in 0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:34.520 line to increase the perceived value of the food sample, 0:46:34.880 --> 0:46:39.520 but adjusting the number of people ahead had no measurable effect. Okay, 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:41.920 I don't know how exactly that shakes out with their method, 0:46:41.960 --> 0:46:44.759 but that sounds to me like it might be not 0:46:44.840 --> 0:46:47.319 so much to the fact that you had to wait 0:46:47.440 --> 0:46:49.560 a certain amount of time to get something is what 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:54.640 increases the perceived value. But seeing other people wanting the thing, 0:46:55.440 --> 0:46:58.160 as demonstrated by their being behind you in the line 0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:01.239 and and making you think of yourself as towards the 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:04.839 front of the line increases the value. Yeah. Yeah, the 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:09.000 idea that there are more people behind you is important 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:11.000 and and I think also it gets into the idea 0:47:11.040 --> 0:47:13.120 that the blind is moving. You know, I am no 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:16.160 longer last in line. So Study three and four drove 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:18.920 home that the more you increased focus on the people 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:22.360 behind an individual in line, the greater the perceived value 0:47:22.400 --> 0:47:24.640 of the thing that we're waiting on. And I found 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:27.319 this especially interesting when I think about the various lines 0:47:27.360 --> 0:47:30.319 I've stood in for, say, amusement park rides, because some 0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:33.239 of them do kind of force you to realize how 0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:36.120 many people are still behind you in line, but others 0:47:36.160 --> 0:47:39.239 snake you through and interesting and novel ways put you through, 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:42.480 you know, novel surroundings. Um though sometimes in those you 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:44.840 still get a glance back. You occasionally get that moment 0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.799 to look back and see where you were previously. And 0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:50.799 I imagine, given the amount of design that goes into 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:54.239 you know, some of these major US amusement parks, that 0:47:54.400 --> 0:47:57.279 is probably intended. There's probably some bit of research where 0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:00.600 they're like, look, it's great to to to give people 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:03.280 the feeling that they're you know, touring a haunted museum 0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:05.439 or something on their way to ride, but we also 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:07.919 need to remind them of how far they've come. Yeah, 0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:10.319 So lines, if you've got a big serpentine line for 0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:12.560 a ride, maybe you should wind it around one way 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:14.719 mirrors so the people towards the front of the line 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:16.640 can look back, but the people at the back can't. 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:19.040 Look ahead exactly. That seems like that would be very 0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:21.360 much in keeping with this study, Like people need to 0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:24.719 know that there are a lot of people behind them 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:27.399 in line. Uh, I guess the only the main time 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:29.160 you need I don't know if it's possible, but the 0:48:29.200 --> 0:48:31.280 main time you would want to hide this from them 0:48:31.400 --> 0:48:33.800 is if there are very few people behind them in line, 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:37.440 because that's when they're they're not going to there's not 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:39.400 going to be the benefit of this effect in place 0:48:39.640 --> 0:48:42.719 that is a bad feeling. So we've been focusing on. 0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:47.239 You know, obviously, businesses want to try to avoid discomfort 0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:50.560 and displeasure coming from having to wait in line, because 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:53.560 it's generally understood correctly that most of the time waiting 0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:56.479 in the line is unpleasant, people want to spend less 0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:59.080 time doing it. But there can be times where the 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:02.320 line itself is kind of pleasurable, at least in my experience, 0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:05.719 and it's when there's a line that moves very quickly. Uh. 0:49:05.760 --> 0:49:07.200 You know, you get in a line and you just 0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:09.319 zip right through it. I mean that almost kind of 0:49:09.320 --> 0:49:12.799 feels good. Yeah, yeah, especially if your expectation is that 0:49:13.000 --> 0:49:16.400 it will likely move slowly. Um. So yeah, there's always 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:19.800 that that point, or there's often that point. It's unfortunately 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:22.279 not always that point. There's often that point where you're like, oh, wow, 0:49:22.400 --> 0:49:25.120 that that line moved pretty quickly, or or one that 0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:27.360 I often find myself saying is oh, it looks like 0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:29.400 we got here at the right time. That one, especially 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:32.400 if you you find yourself pretty far ahead in the 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:34.600 line or there are a lot of people behind you. Um, 0:49:34.760 --> 0:49:36.759 then you you you kind of pat yourself in the back. 0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:38.160 You're like, oh, yeah, hit it at the right time, 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:40.480 right before the lynch rush. I think I saw that 0:49:40.560 --> 0:49:46.120 recently on a like meme list of things Dad say. Yeah, well, 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:48.719 you know, um, as a parent especially, you're always having 0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:51.759 to put positive spins on a situation, UH, where that 0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:53.400 the child may think it's the the end of the 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:55.719 world that you're waiting at all on anything, and you 0:49:55.760 --> 0:49:57.959 have to say, well, hey, look look at the people 0:49:57.960 --> 0:50:00.520 behind us. You know, look how far we've come, Look 0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:03.920 how fast this line is moving, et cetera. Accentuate the positive. 0:50:04.840 --> 0:50:07.480 So we'll probably get into this more in the next 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:09.400 part of the series, but one thing I wanted to 0:50:09.400 --> 0:50:12.439 mention before we wrap up today is uh is one 0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:16.799 example of the difference between objective weight times and perceived 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:20.040 weight times. Uh, they're just tons of studies that have 0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:22.080 been done on all different kinds of things you can 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:26.280 do to make weight times in various forms of queuing 0:50:26.560 --> 0:50:30.399 feel longer or shorter. Obviously, usually businesses want to find 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:33.840 ways to make them feel shorter. And a one strange 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:36.800 one I came across was a study by Steve Oakes 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:40.160 published in the Journal's Psychology and Marketing in two thousand 0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:45.160 three called musical tempo and waiting perceptions. So you call 0:50:45.200 --> 0:50:47.680 in for customer service on something, you're on the phone, 0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:50.080 what what do they do while you're waiting on the phone. 0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:53.680 Most of the time you get some music right right, yeah, 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:55.719 And if it's and if it's an episode of The Simpsons, 0:50:55.760 --> 0:50:58.360 it will be something that is kind of cheekily connected 0:50:58.480 --> 0:51:00.719 to the thing you're waiting on, right, oh yeah, Like 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:02.960 when they call in with the Krusty the clown doll 0:51:03.080 --> 0:51:05.839 that's trying to kill Homer and it's singing everybody loves 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:09.960 the clown so why don't you? Um, Yeah, there's often 0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:12.239 stuff like that, But you might wonder, Okay, what kind 0:51:12.280 --> 0:51:14.600 of what kind of thought goes into choosing the music 0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:16.759 that's that's on the line. I mean, maybe no thought. 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:19.080 It might just be random, who knows what different businesses do, 0:51:19.239 --> 0:51:22.799 but there could be some actual research informing what the 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:28.520 musical selections are. Because this study found a real relationship 0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:33.640 between people's satisfaction with weight times, and they're the perceived 0:51:33.920 --> 0:51:38.000 duration of weight times based on how fast or slow 0:51:38.200 --> 0:51:42.080 the music was the beats per minute. So the author 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:44.520 here did a thing that that was pretty clever instead 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:48.840 of having to instead of playing different, you know, selected 0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:52.560 songs from popular music which people might already have associations 0:51:52.600 --> 0:51:55.799 with that could screw things up. Instead, the author here 0:51:55.840 --> 0:52:01.360 he used digital technology to play the same instrumental music 0:52:01.480 --> 0:52:06.400 samples with and with variability by tempo, just to isolate 0:52:06.440 --> 0:52:09.560 the variable of tempo and play basically the same songs 0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:12.840 faster or slower and see how that would affect people's 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:17.320 perception of weight times. That they did this during UH 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:22.320 students having to wait on undergraduate registration for for a college. 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:25.920 And what the author found here was a significant positive 0:52:25.960 --> 0:52:30.319 relationship between the tempo of the background music and the 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:35.000 perceived weight time. So what that means is slower tempo 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:38.760 music made people feel like the weight time was less 0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:42.400 and faster tempo music made people feel like the weight 0:52:42.520 --> 0:52:45.680 was going on longer, which is actually a little counterintuitive 0:52:45.719 --> 0:52:49.560 to me. I might have assumed the opposite, but but 0:52:49.600 --> 0:52:51.800 it it is sort of in keeping with the kind 0:52:51.840 --> 0:52:54.319 of music I'm more often here when I'm waiting on 0:52:54.400 --> 0:52:57.440 hold to get something, you know, I'm queuing on the telephone. 0:52:57.760 --> 0:53:00.120 It's it's not usually they're not usually playing Moe her 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:02.359 Head right, you know. It's it's something it's very like 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:05.959 slow and languid. It's supposed to be relaxing sounding music. 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:09.040 I remember, uh, way back when we were when we 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:11.080 were owned by Discovery and we had to call in 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:14.080 for a meeting. There was some old music in the 0:53:14.080 --> 0:53:17.200 waiting room for for our meeting software, and one of 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.040 the songs was something I called the Spanish Villa song. Oh. 0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:22.439 It was kind of a Spanish guitar type thing. Yeah, yeah, 0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:25.040 but it was very it was very like you know, 0:53:25.080 --> 0:53:28.160 a nap on a sunny afternoon. Yeah. Yeah. And it 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:30.520 makes sense. I mean, I think it makes perfect sense 0:53:30.520 --> 0:53:33.239 because I think of like a nice, fast tempo song. 0:53:33.320 --> 0:53:36.640 I think of the BGS staying Alive, and like, that's 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:38.840 a song when you hear it, if you hear it 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:41.240 while you're walking. You were going to quicken your pace 0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:44.080 and walk along with that song. It's a song that 0:53:44.120 --> 0:53:46.600 makes you feel like you're getting stuff done, you're going 0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:50.120 places in life. It is the complete opposite of what 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:54.640 waiting on hold feels like. So it it does seem 0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:57.280 like like playing staying alive would be a terrible idea 0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:01.680 for any kind of you know, on whole music situation. Yeah, 0:54:01.719 --> 0:54:03.600 I guess you're right about that. I guess I just 0:54:03.640 --> 0:54:06.440 wouldn't have thought that. But so there is a wrinkle 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:10.440 to this though, the effect of the music tempo on 0:54:10.560 --> 0:54:14.839 perceived weight times is dependent on the objective length of 0:54:14.880 --> 0:54:17.480 the weight time, so it breaks down like this. For 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:21.400 short weights defined in the study is between four and 0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:26.160 fifteen minutes, slow music not only reduced perceived weight time, 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:31.440 it reduced perceived weight time below objective weight time. So 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.800 if you're waiting less than fifteen minutes, slow tempo music 0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:37.840 on average actually made the weight feel shorter than it 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:43.320 actually was, whereas fast tempo music made it feel significantly 0:54:43.360 --> 0:54:45.960 longer than that, and then the control with no music 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:48.440 made it feel even longer than the fast tempo music. 0:54:48.640 --> 0:54:52.319 So no music was the worst condition of all interesting. Yeah. Yeah, 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:55.279 no music would be the worst, it seems, because then 0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:57.520 you don't even know if you're on hold anymore, right, 0:54:57.840 --> 0:54:59.520 Like the music lets me not even if the music 0:54:59.560 --> 0:55:02.560 were were incorrect, if the music were like fast paced 0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:06.279 and making it everything stretch out more, at least I 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:08.680 know that I'm still connected. Right. Oh that that's a 0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:12.280 good point for telephone examples of this especially. Yeah. Um, 0:55:12.320 --> 0:55:16.200 But so the interesting thing was the benefits of slow 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:20.680 tempo music over fast tempo music disappeared with longer waits. 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:23.640 So once you get into between eighteen and twenty five 0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:27.640 minutes of waiting, Uh, suddenly the slow tempo music getting 0:55:27.640 --> 0:55:32.200 any better than fast tempo music. Though maybe both conditions 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:34.480 of having music or a little bit better than no 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:38.400 music at all. Okay, makes sense? All right, Well, I 0:55:38.440 --> 0:55:40.120 think we need to cut it there for part one, 0:55:40.160 --> 0:55:42.080 but we're gonna be back in another part to talk 0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:45.040 about all kinds of other things about queuing. Yeah. Now, 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:46.920 certainly if you have thoughts, go ahead and send them in, 0:55:46.960 --> 0:55:49.520 though you know your experience with with waiting in line 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:51.480 and how they match up with some of what we've 0:55:51.480 --> 0:55:54.560 discussed here. Uh, and yeah, join us for the next episode. 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:57.080 We will continue the journey in the meantime, If you 0:55:57.080 --> 0:55:58.560 would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to 0:55:58.560 --> 0:55:59.800 Blow Your Mind, you'll find them in the Stuff to 0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:03.120 Blow Your Mind feed, which is the podcast feed you 0:56:03.120 --> 0:56:06.200 can find wherever you get your podcasts, wherever that happens 0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:08.239 to be. 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