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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 1: And to introduce today's topic, I wanted to start off

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Speaker 1: by referring to a news article that I found from

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Speaker 1: last year. So this is a local news article from

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Speaker 1: the Santa Clara, California area from March. Remember remember that

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Speaker 1: scary time back when there was a lot of panic

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Speaker 1: buying going on because COVID was just starting to dawn

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Speaker 1: on people and suddenly everybody was like, oh, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: we gotta stock up. We don't know when we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be leaving the house, and so forth. And so this

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Speaker 1: article is referring to the fact that there were long

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Speaker 1: lines at the cost Co in Santa Clara, California in March.

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Speaker 1: And one element of the story that I thought was

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Speaker 1: very interesting was that the Santa Clarita Valley Sheriff Station

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Speaker 1: was on Twitter at some point begging people not to

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Speaker 1: call nine one one because of people cutting in front

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Speaker 1: of them in line. Their tweet read, please don't call

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Speaker 1: nine one one because people are cutting in front of

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Speaker 1: you at line at the store. It ties up valuable

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Speaker 1: resources for real emergencies. But the funny thing is that

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Speaker 1: you would have to say this at all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems kind of obvious to me that somebody cutting

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Speaker 1: in front of you in line at the store is

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Speaker 1: very rude. But this is not a police matter. But

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Speaker 1: I've noticed a lot of you know, informal reports and

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Speaker 1: uh and and even in kind of a recurring theme

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Speaker 1: of don't be this person viral videos online lately is

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Speaker 1: people calling the cops on someone allegedly cutting in front

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Speaker 1: of them at the drive through line at burger King

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Speaker 1: or something like that. And it makes me wonder, why

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Speaker 1: would it be common for people to believe that cutting

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Speaker 1: in line at a customer service point is a crime

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Speaker 1: on a level that merrits the summoning of armed officers

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Speaker 1: of the law. Well, I guess we we should point

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Speaker 1: out that if if there is a situation where one

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Speaker 1: party or even two parties are sort of violating the

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Speaker 1: you know, the social norms of of lines and waiting

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Speaker 1: in line, that itself may not be a crime, but

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Speaker 1: you could imagine where the resulting dynamics could rise to

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Speaker 1: the point of a crime. I mean, if if if

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Speaker 1: it becomes an aggressive enough encounter, you know, then it

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Speaker 1: it could rise to the level of threats and assaults.

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Speaker 1: So it's not to say that it's an it's something

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Speaker 1: that's in an entire separate universe and could never rub

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Speaker 1: up against those those real criminal um activities. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: did the mere act of someone just like jumping ahead

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Speaker 1: of you in line, uh and and not acknowledging you

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Speaker 1: like that that does that is certainly not a police matter.

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Speaker 1: Police have better things to do than get called about that, right,

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Speaker 1: But it's funny that at least some people in two

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Speaker 1: watively think of the idea that somebody allegedly cut in

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Speaker 1: front of them in line at at at a customer

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Speaker 1: service situation is on the level of being you know,

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Speaker 1: robbed at gunpoint or something that you need to get

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Speaker 1: the cops here about this. But you see people react

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Speaker 1: very um alarmingly at times. Oh yeah, for instance, okay,

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Speaker 1: so so right before this podcast, and I got some

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Speaker 1: coffee and there was no line to order the coffee,

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Speaker 1: but there was a line to wait on the coffee,

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Speaker 1: which was an interesting experience I'll get back to, but

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of a very recent, uh experience I

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Speaker 1: had at a coffee shop at an airport where there

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Speaker 1: was a line to get the coffee, and then there

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Speaker 1: was a long wait to receive the coffee. And I

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Speaker 1: everybody's wearing a masks at the at the coffee establishment,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's extra difficult to hear what people were saying.

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Speaker 1: And I had one of those moments where I thought

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Speaker 1: my name was called my last name and I and

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Speaker 1: I went forward and I almost touched the bag of

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Speaker 1: someone else's order, and it was it was this older

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Speaker 1: couple and um, and I was like, oh, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: I thought they said lamb and the the uh the

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Speaker 1: wife of the of the husband and wife pair here.

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Speaker 1: She was like, oh, that's all right, it happens all

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Speaker 1: the time, and the and you know, that's that's that's reasonably.

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Speaker 1: She was like, oh, that's happened to us. But the

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Speaker 1: man he was, he was angry and he like grabbed

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Speaker 1: it and he was like making evils at me, like

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Speaker 1: I was trying to steal his food. And as he

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Speaker 1: marched off, trying to remember what was it he was saying,

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Speaker 1: he was not saying good day, sir. He was saying oh,

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Speaker 1: he was saying bye bye. He was he was like

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Speaker 1: spitefully saying bye bye to me, which is something I

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Speaker 1: had never heard before. I've never heard bye bye used

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Speaker 1: as a so aggressively. But it was a very weird experience.

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Speaker 1: And I guess if I'm going to try and put

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Speaker 1: myself in in in his shoes, if he thought that

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Speaker 1: I was actually trying to to break in line and

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Speaker 1: just randomly steal whatever food and coffee he had ordered, um,

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Speaker 1: then it's kind It's kind of like cutting in line

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Speaker 1: can be equated to theft, like if everybody's in a

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Speaker 1: line to get the same thing at a store, like

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Speaker 1: it's a lemonade stand, they only sell the lemonade. If

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Speaker 1: someone cuts in front of me, then they are on

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Speaker 1: some level stealing my lemonade. I don't know. It's amazing

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Speaker 1: that even at the level of remove of you describing

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Speaker 1: an experience that you almost had but didn't. I felt

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Speaker 1: the dragon flies, you know, a light in my stomach,

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Speaker 1: Like it was just just just terror at the idea

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Speaker 1: of such a faux paw right, I mean, because I

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Speaker 1: guess it does gollustrate two different energies like we we

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of us, if not most of us,

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Speaker 1: have that fear of transgressing the social norm of standing

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Speaker 1: in line and waiting on food and service. But on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, uh, you know, sometimes we're we're extra

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Speaker 1: on guard against violators of those social norms, so it

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Speaker 1: can create very weird and uneven energy. Yeah, the idea

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Speaker 1: of accidentally cutting in line is just horrifying to me,

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Speaker 1: Like the idea that I might do that is enough

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Speaker 1: to to cause that panic, like I'm about to you know,

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Speaker 1: go on stage and speak in public or something that

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Speaker 1: level of of apprehension. And I think we saw probably

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Speaker 1: a lot of this during the pandemic because a lot

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Speaker 1: of places that depended more on interior spaces had to

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Speaker 1: suddenly depend on exterior spaces, which means lines that might

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Speaker 1: be better managed in an entirely indoors or in partially

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Speaker 1: partially indoors environment were suddenly left to exist entirely outside

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Speaker 1: the establishment. And I've seen cases of this where like,

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Speaker 1: clearly this was not what was intended. So the the

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Speaker 1: resulting line situation is maybe more confusing or counterintuitive, and

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Speaker 1: people fall you know, show up and fall into it

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Speaker 1: and and maybe like miss where they're supposed to stand,

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Speaker 1: creates confusion, creates more opportunity for misunderstandings. So what we're

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Speaker 1: observing is that at least among lots of people, there

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Speaker 1: is a deep, powerful commitment to upholding the norms of

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Speaker 1: the single file, first come, first serve line for all

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Speaker 1: different kinds of UH services and access to things. And

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Speaker 1: when you observe this level of commitment to a norm,

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Speaker 1: I think it's very easy to assume that maybe lining

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Speaker 1: up single file for your turn at something is a deep,

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Speaker 1: almost biologically mandated behavior that goes back as far as

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Speaker 1: recorded history and as universal across cultures. But you should

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Speaker 1: always be cautious about drawing conclusions like that, because it

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Speaker 1: turns out, in the case of the single file, first come,

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Speaker 1: first serve line, this is absolutely not the case. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of fascinating features of of waiting in line,

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Speaker 1: or queueing as it's more often referred to in the

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Speaker 1: scientific literature UH, and we'll get into more of those

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Speaker 1: as as we discussed this topic for the next couple

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Speaker 1: of episodes. But one of the fascinating things is that

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Speaker 1: queuing is to a large extent, historically and culturally contingent.

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Speaker 1: Not everybody gets in line for things, and even in

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Speaker 1: cultures where we do we haven't always done it that way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Queuing is it's it's a pretty interesting phenomenon because on

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Speaker 1: one level, we often see this behavior as a means

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Speaker 1: of self organizing, sometimes via non human directions such as

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Speaker 1: signs or ropes. There's not you know, there's not a

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Speaker 1: person there to yell at you if you get out

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Speaker 1: of line. Other times there is a person there to

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Speaker 1: yell at you, um, and such as with say T

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Speaker 1: s A. Agents who you know they're doing an important job,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of times they're not shy about raising

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Speaker 1: their voice. Uh. And other times it's just out of

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Speaker 1: necessity in cases where there are no rules, but there

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Speaker 1: is a social pressure to form a queue of some sort,

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Speaker 1: you know, where people realize like there's no there's nothing

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Speaker 1: to indicate how we should line up in order to

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Speaker 1: to enter an establishment or get up to the register,

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Speaker 1: So people just figure it out on their own, sometimes poorly,

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Speaker 1: sometimes with like the line going completely across the sidewalk

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Speaker 1: so that people can't cut through. Things like that, And

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Speaker 1: then oftentimes you see someone having to come out and say,

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Speaker 1: let's actually make the line go against the side of

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Speaker 1: the building, et cetera. Yeah, but I think one thing

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Speaker 1: that's pretty amazing about lines is that if you're in,

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Speaker 1: if you're in culturated in lines, if queuing is a

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Speaker 1: part of your culture and your upbringing, it's amazing how

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Speaker 1: regularly people spontaneously organized into lines and how little problem

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Speaker 1: they have with it overall. Yeah, I mean, and ultimately

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Speaker 1: comes down to a basic reality. Some come first by

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Speaker 1: necessity in order to assure everyone proceeds, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of times that is a first come, first serve situation.

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Speaker 1: Whoever is first gets to stand in line first. Um,

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Speaker 1: and it just avoids chaos, right Yeah. But of course,

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Speaker 1: while queuing can seem very fair and democratic, though though

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Speaker 1: in the in the UK it was, it was even

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Speaker 1: accused of it was accused of being a product of socialism.

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Speaker 1: I found an interesting paper about that. Maybe we'll get

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Speaker 1: into that more later. Um, we have no shortage of

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Speaker 1: ways to make queuing less of an even a fair

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Speaker 1: Various rules always seem to exist to allow people to legally,

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Speaker 1: you know, within the social contract, to legally break line,

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Speaker 1: to form separate lines, faster lines, etcetera. So it can

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Speaker 1: often depend on where you are in the line and

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Speaker 1: who you were and who you are in the line,

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Speaker 1: what you're waiting for, etcetera. Uh. To determine exactly how

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Speaker 1: fair this whole system seems, though, I find something that's

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Speaker 1: interesting is that if there are standing line breaking mechanics

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Speaker 1: in place, uh, those mechanics are often hidden from view

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Speaker 1: in one way or another. Like the institution that has

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Speaker 1: the line that that allows some kind of organized line

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Speaker 1: breaking for preferred waiters. Uh, Like they try to keep

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Speaker 1: it sort of separate so people don't see somebody just

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Speaker 1: cutting straight in front of everybody else. But but not

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Speaker 1: at the airport, um, you know, because it's basically like,

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Speaker 1: all right, do we have any babies, Okay, let's get

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Speaker 1: some babies on board. Okay, how about old people, soldiers? Okay,

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Speaker 1: rich people? Do you have any rich people in the group?

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Speaker 1: You know? It's it's it. It's not how they do it, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but but sometimes they can smack of that, especially if

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Speaker 1: you were in like loading group, you know, thirteen or whatever. Um,

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Speaker 1: I guess there's no way to hide it. If it's

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Speaker 1: an airplane, there's just this one access point. Everybody's waiting

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Speaker 1: in the same place. But when it's possible, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of places really do like to keep it

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Speaker 1: keep it sort of out of you in some way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will say at airports I've been to, they'll often

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Speaker 1: have to have it set up. So the t S

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Speaker 1: A pre check line, uh is is maybe it's maybe

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Speaker 1: like a little less obvious, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: like something like the t S A pre check line

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Speaker 1: is something they want, well, they want participants to take

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Speaker 1: advantage off. So you don't want to ride it completely.

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Speaker 1: Uh So I kind of like with your fast pass

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Speaker 1: at an amusement park. You don't want it to make

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Speaker 1: you don't want to make everyone miserable, but you do

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Speaker 1: want to sell fast passes. Um So, I guess you

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Speaker 1: don't want to sell exclusively fast passes. So, but I

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Speaker 1: imagine that's worked out in the uh in the price

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Speaker 1: gauge and all. Have you ever read the stuff about

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Speaker 1: the the alleged I mean, I I don't know this

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Speaker 1: is true for sure, but it is at least alleged

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Speaker 1: that some amusement parks think of wait times not just

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Speaker 1: as something that's necessary, you know, because everybody can't ride

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Speaker 1: the roller coaster at the same time, but also as

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Speaker 1: something that extends the perceived value of what there is

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Speaker 1: to do at the amusement park because if you could

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Speaker 1: just ride every roller coaster in order, you know what,

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Speaker 1: You've got like an hour of fun there, and then

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Speaker 1: then there's nothing else to do. You've already done everything.

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Speaker 1: So by having people wait in line for things, that's

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Speaker 1: not only a necessity, it also allows you to stretch

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Speaker 1: out the perception of having fun over the course of

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Speaker 1: an entire day. So people are like, Wow, I got

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Speaker 1: to do this all day. It was really great. Huh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Um. I mean the thing about amusement

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Speaker 1: from for my money, I don't want to go from

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Speaker 1: roller coaster to roller coaster because that will make me sick.

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Speaker 1: I need some time to settle down. I also kind

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Speaker 1: of like a certain amount of anticipation building up to

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Speaker 1: the ride, and some rides you're nicer. Amusement parks tend

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Speaker 1: to do a really good job of making your your

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Speaker 1: way more pleasant, uh you know, or or out there.

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Speaker 1: Another specific example I'll point out is the nether World

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Speaker 1: Haunted attraction here in the Atlanta area. Uh. Often you'll

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Speaker 1: be a long line, there'll be some sort of fast

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Speaker 1: PAS scenario, but you'll end up going through a museum

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Speaker 1: of the haunted attraction as part of the line waiting experience,

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Speaker 1: which is that kind of thing I really appreciate, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, where it makes the line a little more

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Speaker 1: part of the experience and not just this dull thing

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Speaker 1: you're doing in order to have the experience. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: have not been to a lot of amusement parks. Uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe not any as an adult that I can remember.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe maybe I'll think of an exception,

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Speaker 1: but I remember as a child going like Universal Studios, Florida,

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Speaker 1: and one thing that that they did something like that,

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Speaker 1: They're We're saying, you're waiting in line for the Jaws ride,

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Speaker 1: and they've got a kind of backstory for you. So

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Speaker 1: they've got TVs playing things that set up the ride.

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Speaker 1: And I think something similar was true of like the

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Speaker 1: Back to the Future ride, Like the ride has a

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Speaker 1: back story and as you're going through the line, you're

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Speaker 1: watching TV stations playing various segments of the back story. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting with both the Haunted attraction and the amusement

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Speaker 1: park ride. Essentially these are examples of especially with the

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Speaker 1: Hunted attraction, you're standing in line to walk through in

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Speaker 1: a line, and in the case of the ride, you're

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Speaker 1: standing in line to go in a circle and then

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Speaker 1: leave and continue your line out of the the exhibit.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times we're talking about standing in

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Speaker 1: line for resources. Uh. And and this this got me thinking.

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Speaker 1: I was looking around a little bit of the animal world,

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Speaker 1: and you'll you'll often read something about something like queuing

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Speaker 1: in terms of dominance among social animals. For instance, I

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Speaker 1: was reading to account about how some baboons, Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: something with some with baboons, there's something like queuing that

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Speaker 1: has arrived at after food is discovered, and it's something

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Speaker 1: that's governed by the dominant primate in the group. So

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Speaker 1: it's not a very fair system of queuing by most

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Speaker 1: human standards, but it is a system and it prevents

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Speaker 1: the need for overt conflict and strug goal amid these individuals. Right.

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Speaker 1: So it's important to make a distinction because anytime you

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Speaker 1: have multiple people trying to get access to the same

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Speaker 1: thing and they can't all access that at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you've got to have some system for ordering access. But

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about when we say waiting in line

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Speaker 1: is almost always understood to mean the relatively egalitarian, first come,

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Speaker 1: first serve, single file line, which is very which is

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Speaker 1: very different than what the baboons are doing. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: oh man, we haven't even got into the spacing of lines,

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Speaker 1: which of course has become certainly more of a thing

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Speaker 1: during pandemic times. Uh, sometimes obeyed as part of the

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Speaker 1: social norm, sometimes disturbingly ignored. Uh. But prior to the

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Speaker 1: pandemic you at least saw it with A T M

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Speaker 1: S where there was this kind of agreed upon social

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Speaker 1: contract that if you were waiting in line behind me

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Speaker 1: at the A t M and I'm at the A

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Speaker 1: t M, you will like stand back a certain amount

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Speaker 1: us it would be impolite, if not threatening, to stand

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Speaker 1: too close to me during this transaction. What's that line

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Speaker 1: from the SNL song The Creep? I think it's something

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Speaker 1: like when you want to make a friend at the

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Speaker 1: A T M do the creep? Oh yeah, where they're

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Speaker 1: all dressed like John Waters, and I believe John Waters

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Speaker 1: makes an appearance in that. Yeah, But the point being

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Speaker 1: you don't approach people too closely at the A t M. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: Now this is kind of a stretch, but I admit,

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Speaker 1: but this got me thinking about another key example of

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Speaker 1: line formation among humans, not the vertical lines of cues

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Speaker 1: or people following a path, but the horizontal lines of

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Speaker 1: rank and file armed combatants. Uh, the sort of ordered

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Speaker 1: approach to the movement and action of human beings that

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Speaker 1: has been vitally important in the history of warfare, because

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Speaker 1: on one level, it's entirely unlike forming a line to

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Speaker 1: use an a t M or to get buy a

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Speaker 1: hot dog, et cetera. But there is also a sense

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Speaker 1: of it there as well. I think if you, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you sort of open your mind and compare the

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Speaker 1: two where a discipline system is in place to ensure

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Speaker 1: peak performance of the group, benefiting the whole group but

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Speaker 1: also the individuals within the group. You know what I'm say, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I see that comparison. Did you bring this up because

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Speaker 1: you've been reading that blog about military history and analyzing

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Speaker 1: Tolkien that you sent me? Yes, it is no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that that's really good because one of the things you

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Speaker 1: sent me was an article or at least a quote

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Speaker 1: about how the thing you see with medieval style or

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Speaker 1: ancient style battles in movies where it's just an all

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Speaker 1: out melee, you know, free for all, or everybody's just

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Speaker 1: fighting random combatants in whatever order it seems to occur

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Speaker 1: to them that this is not at least how battles

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Speaker 1: were supposed to go in in ancient combat, where you'd

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Speaker 1: be using spears or swords handheld weapons. I mean that

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Speaker 1: in most cases you want to be fighting in formation

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Speaker 1: or you're losing. Yeah. That that blog is a collection

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Speaker 1: of unmitigated pedantry by military historian Bret C. Devereaux. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: he makes the point where if if it's broken out

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Speaker 1: into just chaotic melee, uh, that means the battle has

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Speaker 1: already gone poorly. And if if you're if you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you may have already lost at that point, you probably

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Speaker 1: have already lost. But if you if you're gonna win,

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Speaker 1: then you haven't broke rank. Like the winners don't break rank,

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Speaker 1: they stick together and stay in formation. And I think

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Speaker 1: the same is true of standing in line. Like if

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Speaker 1: people start breaking rank, if people start panicking, then then

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Speaker 1: it's all over. Like nobody gets to use the A T.

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Speaker 1: M machine if this order breaks down, nobody gets to

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Speaker 1: buy a hot dog or a cup of coffee, nobody

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Speaker 1: gets to board the plane. Yeah, of course, so nobody

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Speaker 1: enjoys waiting in line. But you've got to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: waiting in a first come, first serve line for the

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Speaker 1: A t M is much better than using the shoving

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Speaker 1: to the front method. Yeah, I guess unless you're really

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Speaker 1: good at shoving. But to be serious for a minute,

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Speaker 1: if you already use the shoving to the front method

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Speaker 1: and you do actually get to the A t M,

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Speaker 1: what happens to you once you get your cash? I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a recurring problem. I think if you don't

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Speaker 1: have a well organized system for for getting people access

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Speaker 1: to service points. Yeah, if you totally dismantle the social

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Speaker 1: norms leading up to the A t M, then what

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Speaker 1: about the rest of the social norms surrounding the whole experience?

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Speaker 1: Though I do want to say that this doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean that the the single file, first come, first serve

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Speaker 1: line is the only way to organize access to things.

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Speaker 1: There are other ways that people have come up with

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Speaker 1: sort of social rules for organizing access. This is just

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Speaker 1: a very common one in the modern world, in the

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Speaker 1: Western world, especially thank thank thank Now. I was wondering

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Speaker 1: about a question which was how much of our lives

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Speaker 1: do we on average spend waiting in line? And I

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Speaker 1: had some trouble finding a really solid, well reasoned answer

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Speaker 1: to this. But there is one thing, at least the

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Speaker 1: closest thing I've come across, which I found in an

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Speaker 1: article by Anna Swanson called what really drives you crazy

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Speaker 1: about waiting in line? It actually isn't the weight at all.

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Speaker 1: This was published in the Washington Post, and for this article,

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Speaker 1: Swanson interviews Richard Larson, who is a professor who studies

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Speaker 1: queuing theory at m i T. That's actually an area

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Speaker 1: of study. Now, it's a little bit broader than just

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Speaker 1: people standing in per person on their feet in a

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Speaker 1: single file line. It's more about like about like ordering

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Speaker 1: access to things, and they're all kinds of mathematical theories

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Speaker 1: about how to maximize efficiency in systems that use various

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Speaker 1: forms of queueing and so forth, and so Larsen studies

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Speaker 1: that type of thing. But Larson estimates that quote altogether

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Speaker 1: some people spend a year or two of their lives

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Speaker 1: waiting in line. Now, a big note here is that

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Speaker 1: the some people is about the best you can do there,

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Speaker 1: because the amount of time people spend waiting in line

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Speaker 1: will have enormous variants depending on what culture you live in,

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Speaker 1: what kind of business you do, whether you live in

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Speaker 1: a city or in the country, etcetera. But for this

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Speaker 1: common guess of one to two years, how would you

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Speaker 1: arrive at that? Well, Larson's research makes him think that

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Speaker 1: for many Americans at least the majority of their Q

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Speaker 1: time is actually spent waiting in traffic congestion, which is

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Speaker 1: interesting because I wouldn't have thought about traffic as a

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Speaker 1: form of waiting in line. But I guess by almost

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Speaker 1: every way of defining it, really it is. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we may not think about it as much, but we are,

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Speaker 1: you know, proceeding in lines. And granted there are varied lines,

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Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of cutting in line that is,

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Speaker 1: that is very much part of the legal process. Though

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Speaker 1: you do see breakdowns in this where it becomes super obvious,

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Speaker 1: you know, where like say, situations where a lane is

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Speaker 1: closed ahead and everyone needs to merge to the right,

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Speaker 1: and you'll have some people that are like, Nope, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go as far in the left lane as possible,

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Speaker 1: and then I shall insist on being let into the

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Speaker 1: appropriate lane. Stuff like that. That'll, at least I know

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Speaker 1: it in me, it'll raise the accusation of of line cutter.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll be you know, I won't actually shake

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Speaker 1: my fist or anything. But I'm inside, are we thinking

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Speaker 1: that person? They are no good? They are they are

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Speaker 1: breaking the rules here. So in practice I hate it too,

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Speaker 1: But I have a terrible piece of wisdom on the

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Speaker 1: subject that I'm sure we'll cause your polite and orderly

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Speaker 1: mind to revolt, but I have to share it. So

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Speaker 1: among experts who study traffic queuing, the late merge is

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Speaker 1: widely considered to be superior to the early merge. Basically,

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Speaker 1: the thinking is that, if say a two lane highway

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Speaker 1: is narrowing down to one lane for construction, drivers should

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Speaker 1: use all the lanes available to them for as long

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Speaker 1: as they can, and then take turns one by one,

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Speaker 1: merging into the bottle neck. Now, this doesn't necessarily move

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Speaker 1: the cars through any faster than an early merge system,

431
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: but it's still is more efficient because it reduces the

432
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: backward stretching length of the traffic jam, though I did

433
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: find at least one case where it was found to

434
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: speed up the traffic moving through the bottle neck. There

435
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: was a New York Times article from October by Christopher

436
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,640
Speaker 1: Melee about late merging, and it's cited a study from

437
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: the Colorado Department of Transportation that found late merging and

438
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: work zones led to a fifteen percent increase in the

439
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: volume of cars passing through, and that it cut the

440
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 1: length of the backup on the road in half. But

441
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: either way, it's also considered superior because it's safer since

442
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: the merging one at a time in the zipper like

443
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: fashion tends to happen at a predictable way at lower

444
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: speeds than early merging does. So so I hate it too.

445
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: And when I see somebody running down the open lane

446
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: and merging late, it looks selfish. If you do it,

447
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: it feels selfish when you see it. I'm like, you jerk.

448
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: But but it's probably, unfortunately, what everybody should be doing

449
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: for the greater good. Well, I have a hard time

450
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: imagining that the person that the people that I often

451
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: see doing this are doing it because they're they're well

452
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: acquainted with queuing theory, and then they're like, I'm doing

453
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: the responsible thing. Don't look at me, weird, you know.

454
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: I imagine they're they're also being aggressive in other aspects

455
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: of their driving experience, right, But then again, queuing theory

456
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: professors they have to drive to So perhaps the last

457
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: person that I judge how actually was Richard Larson. I

458
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: don't know that's quite possible. Were you in Massachusetts at

459
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: the time, No, but you know, maybe maybe he was

460
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: going to Florida. I don't know, yeah, but anyway, So

461
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: the the idea is that the majority of time that

462
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: people spend waiting in line, on average, Again, there's gonna

463
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: be huge variants from person to person, but on average

464
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: is probably waiting in traffic congestion, which is in a

465
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: way waiting in line because you are queued up for

466
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: access to something. In this case, what you're usually queued

467
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: up for access to is a a bottleneck in the

468
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: throughput of the traffic on the street. So how do

469
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: you get to the one to two years number? Well, uh,

470
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: Larson explains as follows. Suppose that a home to work

471
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: trip on a Sunday morning takes you thirty minutes, but

472
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: on a working weekday it takes you sixty minutes. That

473
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: corresponds to thirty minutes each day each way of traffic

474
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: caused queuing, sixty minutes of traffic queuing each day, or

475
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: three minutes each week. If you make reasonable assumptions, about

476
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: five day is a week of driving like this both

477
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: ways for an entire career. Then one comes up with

478
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: figures of one to two years of your waking life

479
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: spent in queues, mostly rush hour traffic cues and slowness,

480
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: which is equivalent to queuing. So that's very back of

481
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: the envelope, and that's just traffic, but it does make

482
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: you realize how much of modern American life is going

483
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: to be characterized by simply waiting for access to things. Uh. Though,

484
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: It's also interesting to me because I was thinking, well,

485
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: some people might quibble with whether traffic actually counts as

486
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: queuing or not, and and that raised the question why

487
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: it's sort of in itself interesting, Why would people not

488
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: think of traffic as a form of waiting in line?

489
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: I would say it is. It's definitely waiting in line.

490
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: It's even more dangerous waiting in line because you're in

491
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: a large vehicle that can cause fatalities. You are you

492
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: are also, I mean, without even getting into the whole

493
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: issue of road rage, you're in a You're in an

494
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: area where we see the social norms sometimes take on

495
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: different forms, and it becomes it can become more difficult

496
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: to associate those other cars with individual people in ways

497
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: that you don't see in an actual in person line. Um,

498
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: I guess on one level, I'm tempted to say, well,

499
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: if you're in your car, at least you can listen

500
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: to a podcast. But of course with mobile technology you

501
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: can you can if you if you think to bring

502
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: your headphones, you can do so in a in an

503
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: actual in person line as well. So I don't know sure. Okay,

504
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: here's another queuing theory question that that I've wondered about.

505
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Let's say you're waiting in line for a number of

506
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: service points, maybe three bank tellers. There are a couple

507
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: of different ways that the bank can organize the waiting process.

508
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: Uh So, for example, they can have individual lines for

509
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: each bank teller and you just pick which line to

510
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: get in, or there can be one single snaking line

511
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: and once you get to the front of it, you

512
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: go to the next available teller. I was wondering, is

513
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: it actually is one of these actually more efficient than

514
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: the other, or are they about the same? Well, it

515
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: turns out there's an answer to that, and it's sort

516
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: of what you would guess if you think about it.

517
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: This also was by way of Richard Larson in that

518
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: same Washington Post article on average weight times for the

519
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: two systems are about the same, so you know, you

520
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: average it out over a lifetime, it's not going to

521
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: make a major difference. But there is much more variance

522
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: for weight times in the multi line system, so there

523
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: is a greater chance that you get through either very

524
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: quickly or you get stuck for a long time. So

525
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: I think the individual line system can be thought of

526
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: more as the gamblers system. Right when you want to

527
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: roll the dice on your weight time, that's the better

528
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: way to go. But if you want to have a

529
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: more predictable experience, the serpentine line is better. So of

530
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: course the having multi the multi line system is going

531
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: to be the one where you inevitably end up saying

532
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: to yourself, oh I picked the wrong line, or perhaps

533
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: you say, oh I picked the correct line. But um

534
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: so I guess the experience is going to be a

535
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: little more different. Is there gonna be a little different

536
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: depending on it Now, of course, it's not actually possible

537
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: that that it would really be the case over the

538
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: course of a life that the other line always moves faster.

539
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: So the fact that the other line always moves faster

540
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: really tells us something about human psychology, right that we

541
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: tend to notice more when things are not going our way. Now.

542
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: The many short lines approach, of course, also lends itself

543
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: to tiered systems stuff like t s, a pre check

544
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: or speed pass an amusement park. Uh. And depending on

545
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: how this is arranged, it might make for increased deficiency

546
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: uh and or gives some individuals or groups an unfair advantage.

547
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's a fair advantage. It really depends on

548
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: your vantage point on these particular incidents. Uh Huh. I

549
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: wanted to go to an historical example on this. I

550
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: was looking around and I was thinking, well, you know, queuing.

551
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: You know, given that this is something that people have

552
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: had to do for a long time, like, but you

553
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: do see some cultural differences. What's a what's a nice

554
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: like ancient example of queuing? And I found a pretty

555
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: good one. I think it's um, it's from the ancient world,

556
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: and it requires to visit, uh, the Oracle of Delphie.

557
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: Now we've we've I don't think we've ever really talked

558
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: about Delphi in depth on the show before. I think

559
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: it came up briefly in our Bicameral Mind episode. But

560
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: we could totally do a whole series on it because

561
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of interesting angles. You know, you have

562
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: mythology history. There's also there's a whole chemical discussion to

563
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: be had as well. Oh yeah, about what like huffing

564
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: volcanic gases possibly or something. Yeah, but he But here's

565
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: the basics. The ancient Greeks considered Delphi to be the

566
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: center of the world, and it's here that the the

567
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: Omphallus of Delphi mentioned in our previous Listener Male episode.

568
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: This is where you would find this artifact. There's is

569
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: supposed to be the stone um of the god Yes,

570
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: I believe, fed to chron Us in in lieu of

571
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: his own son Zeus, so that Zeus could could live

572
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: instead of being munched. Yeah. So this artifact found its

573
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: home there and it served as kind of the navel

574
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: of the world. But it was also the location of

575
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: this vital temple of Delphi where one might consult an

576
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: oracle about the future or the past. Uh. Now oracle

577
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: would be someone known as the Pythia, and this would

578
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: be a female conduit for the god Apollo. Uh, someone

579
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: serving as the oracle, and you would see people arrive

580
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: here from all over the essentially the known world, in

581
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: the regions surrounding Greece. Uh, they would pursue matters of

582
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: love state craft. You would have ambassadors showing up to

583
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: see to determine, like what course of action should be

584
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: taken at a at a state level or you know

585
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: what accounts for state level at the time. Businesses. Uh,

586
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, if you have business inquiries, you might go

587
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: So a lot of people were coming in. You need

588
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: to find out if your son is going to depose

589
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: and kill you. Yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. Uh.

590
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: And there are various origin stories concerning the oracle here,

591
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: but the one which was given in the first century

592
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: BC by the writer uh Diodorus, was that a goat

593
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: discovered a cave and the fumes from the cave caused

594
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: him to become untethered from the now and to experience

595
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: both the future and the past, thus the establishment of

596
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: a temple and uh, you know, and arranging a particular

597
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 1: individual to to serve as the oracle, and providing an

598
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: orderly means for people to seek these sacred divinations. Okay,

599
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: So it seems like what you've got here is a

600
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: service that a lot of people are going to want

601
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: and they can't all get at the same time. Yeah,

602
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: And so you've got to manage that, so yeah, a

603
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: lot of people coming in. It becomes a major center

604
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: of banking and commerce. And I found a really interesting

605
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: book by an author by the by the name of

606
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: Michael Scott titled Delphi, a History of the Center of

607
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: the Ancient World published and as Scott explains, they turned

608
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: to a system of queuing. So I want to read

609
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: a quote from this book. Quote. The consultants, who would

610
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: have had to arrive, probably some days before the appointed

611
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: consultation day, would now play their part. They first had

612
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: to purify themselves with water from the springs of Delphi. Next,

613
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: they had to organize according to the strict rules governing

614
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: the order of consultation. Local Delphians always had the first

615
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: right of audience. What followed them was a system of

616
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: queuing that prioritize first Greeks whose city or tribe was

617
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: part of Delphi's supreme governing Council, then all other Greeks,

618
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: and finally non Greeks. But within each section there was

619
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: also a way to skip to the front, a system

620
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: known as promanteau promantea. The right to consult the oracle

621
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: before others could be awarded to individuals or cities by

622
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: the city of Delphi as an expression of the closer

623
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: relationship between them, or as thanks for particular actions as

624
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: oracle pre check exactly. Yeah, and so your city might

625
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: be awarded promantia, for instance, for paying for a new

626
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: altar or something to that effect. But but it's interesting.

627
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: It is kind of like a speed pass or one

628
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: of those. If you ever go to a place where

629
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: they have special parking places for the donors that that

630
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: helped fund a like a I don't know, performing arts

631
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: center or botanical garden, that's sort of things kind of

632
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: like that. But it also shows that for a very

633
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: long time, human civilization has had to work out how

634
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: to manage people as they move to and through various systems,

635
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: especially if it's something like this where there's there's only

636
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: the one oracle, like they can't see everybody at once.

637
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: You need a system in place and um and it.

638
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: But it's ultimately going to be more complicated than just

639
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: a first come, first serve, that's right. And this brings

640
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: us back to the idea that while the the single file,

641
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: first come, first serve line might feel like it, you know,

642
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: it might feel to us like it is so deep

643
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: and so obvious that's just a part of our biology.

644
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: Once again, it's something that is somewhat culturally and historically contingent,

645
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: and it's it's not something that was all that's always

646
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: in place everywhere in history. I was reading some articles

647
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: trying to find like where this convention really got popular,

648
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: and one thing I found was a number of articles

649
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: about a book by an author named David Andrews called

650
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: Why Does the Other Line Always Move Faster? That seems

651
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: like kind of a pop history of queuing. And Andrew's

652
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: argues at least that the first come, first serve, single

653
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: file queuing us system is mostly a recent phenomenon and

654
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: that it actually has its origins in the French Revolution. Uh.

655
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: He deduces this in part from the nineteenth century Scottish

656
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: historian and S. A. S. Thomas Carlyle, who wrote extensively

657
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: about the French Revolution in a three volume chronicle that

658
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: was first published in eighteen thirty seven. And one of

659
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: the things that Carlisle observed about post revolutionary France was

660
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: the change in modes of customer service. He said that

661
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: in their bakeries in Paris, customers would line up in

662
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: single file for service in what we're called queues q

663
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: meant tale in Old French, a tale like an animal's tale,

664
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: originally coming from the Latin coda or cauta, and quoted

665
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: in an ap article I was reading about this book, uh,

666
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: that there were basically political connotations to the idea of

667
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: waiting in queue for service. That it was supposed to

668
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: be a demonstration of commitment to the values of the

669
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: French revolutions logan of liberty, equality and fraternity. It meant

670
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: patiently waiting on your turn, you know, no matter what

671
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: your job was or your station. Uh. And and Carlisle

672
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 1: summed it up in the sentence, patriotism stands in Q. Yeah,

673
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: this is this is interesting how there are different ways

674
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: of looking at the line and the sort of the

675
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: democratic nature of the line, because again you'll also see

676
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: accusations of the line as a as a manifestation of socialism.

677
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: You'll see it critiqued. Uh. This was a common critique

678
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: of of the Soviet Union back that you're talking about

679
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: the bread lines and having to wait in line for bread. Uh,

680
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: you know, as if it were you know, it's a

681
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: sign of something not working within the institution. Well, I

682
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: think the problem there, like to the extent that that

683
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: is a problem. The problem there is scarcity, not the

684
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: fact that it's a first come, first serve system for access,

685
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: but like the line became emblematic of the scarcity, right,

686
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: And this actually leads, I think into a that's an

687
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: excellent lead into our discussion of queuing psychology, because yeah,

688
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: how do you perceive the line before you were in it?

689
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: How do you perceive the line once you are in it?

690
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: Because let's say you're you know, you're you're you're out

691
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: and about and you're like, oh, I think I'm going

692
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: to drop in at this coffee place. I'm gonna get

693
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee. And as you approach, you see

694
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: that there is a long line or you know, a

695
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: longish line anyway to acquire said coffee. So how are

696
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: you supposed to view that? You could view it like saying,

697
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: oh good, they have a system. They have a system

698
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: for me to get coffee. I can go get in

699
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: line and I can totally acquire it. You know, maybe

700
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: it looks like the lines moving, or you might say,

701
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: oh man, there's a line. Maybe they're running out of coffee.

702
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: Maybe this is a scarity scarcity situation, or perhaps you're

703
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: concerned maybe they're understaffed, maybe they can't properly attend to

704
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: everybody who wants coffee today. You know. There there's so

705
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: many different ways of viewing it and um and certainly

706
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: when you start looking at the like the marketing research

707
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: on it, it is readily identified that there there's an

708
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: economic cost and a psychological cost to standing in line,

709
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, because everybody in line that's waiting is somebody

710
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: that you you you generally have not yet um tended

711
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: to uh. You know. Granted you can have multiple line

712
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: system like the line to UM to to order and

713
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: then the line to get your food, etcetera. UM, but

714
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: there's a potential economic cost associated with that line, and

715
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: then there's a psychological cost. What is that individual doing

716
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 1: while they were waiting in line? Are they frustrated? Are

717
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: they are they angry? Are they at pulling out their

718
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: phones and going to one of the review sites so

719
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: they can you know, leave a nasty review because they

720
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: haven't received their coffee yet. Yeah, exactly. So a ton

721
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: of the psychological research about queuing has actually been done

722
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: in the context, like you say, of like marketing and

723
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 1: consumer behavior research and in the business world. But even

724
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: in that context, there's a lot of really interesting stuff

725
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: that's been found. Some of it, I think we'll ring

726
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: true to your experiences. Some of it might be more surprising.

727
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: One of the things that really rings true to my

728
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: experience is that people experience weights as longer and is

729
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: less pleasant when they don't know how long the weight

730
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: is going to be and they don't understand the reason

731
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: for the way that. That's like the real that's the

732
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: red zone. That's really bad. Yeah, I have to admit

733
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 1: the place that I got coffee this morning, though though

734
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: I love it it's a great place, is a similar

735
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: situation because there was no visible line to order, but

736
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: it was just a lot of people waiting on their

737
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: order outside and so a lot of the time. And

738
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: of course I went into it having read some of

739
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: these studies, so I was thinking a lot about our

740
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: recording today, um and maybe had a little extra AMMO

741
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: to to consider whilst waiting. But yeah, your mind starts wondering, Okay,

742
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: I wonder what's going on here? Man? Are they understaffed?

743
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: And you start looking at other people to see if

744
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: they're frustrated, and see how everyone is and and all.

745
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: Then you get suddenly in my case too I found

746
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: myself worrying, Oh man, I think I'm about to get

747
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: my coffee before these people who are here when I

748
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: got here? Is that going to feel weird? Because then

749
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm sort of cutting in line. I mean not in

750
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: a way it where I bear the blame, but in

751
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: a way that could still be socially awkward. You know.

752
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: Oh well, this actually ties into one of the studies

753
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention today. Do you mind if I

754
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: cut right to this one real quick? You're gonna kind

755
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: of ahead of me and the outline for this episode.

756
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: I want to cut in line on the outline just

757
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: because it ties into what you just said. Well, this

758
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: is going to be very brief. But one of the

759
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: questions I was wondering about is okay, so you just

760
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 1: assume you know what fairness in queuing is, right, because

761
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: when you see somebody like cutting in line, that is

762
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: obviously a violation of the fairness principle that you've got

763
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 1: in mind when you're when you're queuing up for something.

764
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: But there are other principles at work as well, And

765
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: so there was a study I was looking at by

766
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: Wrong Wrong Show and Deleep Soman in psychology and marketing,

767
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight called consumers waiting in queues the

768
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: role of first order and second order justice. Uh. And

769
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: so this looks at actually two different senses of justice

770
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: about waiting in line. One is the sution is the

771
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: line being served according to a first in, first out principle,

772
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: I you know, in order, no cutting in line. And

773
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: the second principle is are people in line all waiting

774
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: approximately equal amounts of time? These two things are actually

775
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: not always coterminous, and sometimes they go against one another.

776
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 1: For example, if you're at a grocery store and somebody

777
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: has a you know, huge cart full of tiny items,

778
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: they're buying the entire spice rack off the shelf or something,

779
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: and they want to pay by check and they get

780
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: in front of you in line, you might have to

781
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: wait way more than the average customer. So that's one

782
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: type of unfairness you could perceive. But then, of course

783
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: the other thing would be, well, what if the store

784
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: just said like, well, why don't you come in front

785
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: of this person right? Uh, you know, even though they

786
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: got there before you. And so the authors looked into

787
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: the question here, do do customers care about both of

788
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: these things? They found that yes, people actually do care

789
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: about both of these types of fairness. But they also

790
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: found that customers care about adherence to the first in,

791
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 1: first out principle more than they care about the equal

792
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: waiting time principle. Ah So an individual with a large cart,

793
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: they're likely to take more offense that at the the

794
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: the person of the cash registers saying can we let

795
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: that person with one item go ahead of you? Um.

796
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: Whereas if it's a situation where you're approaching in your

797
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: large cart and they say, actually, the person who was

798
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: ahead of you had to go back and get an item,

799
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: but now they're back, can they go ahead in front

800
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: of you? Then that you would you would probably be

801
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: more okay with that because they were still ahead of

802
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: you in line. Sorry, that's a little confilution. No, No,

803
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: that may well be an implication. I mean, I don't

804
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 1: know how this would always come because once you introduce

805
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: real world scenarios that that like brings in some other things.

806
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'd say in general that that kind of

807
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: principle could be true from this, Yeah, because there are

808
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: other social dynamics that come into play, right, Like if

809
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: you were a young, able bodied person with a large

810
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: cart and the person with one item is an elderly individual,

811
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: you know, then you're gonna perhaps be more inclined to

812
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: be like, oh, yes, please let let them go first. Yeah.

813
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 1: And I think in general, people feel very differently about

814
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: advantage that has been offered to someone else versus advantage

815
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 1: that has been given to someone else without your consent. Right,

816
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: the same person who would gladly let somebody with fewer

817
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: items in ahead of them in line if they if

818
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: it was their idea, might get really mad if the

819
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: if the clerk said, you know what, why don't why

820
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: doesn't this person go in front of you? Yeah? Yeah,

821
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: it wasn't my idea to let the like the weightlifter

822
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: who's buying one muscle milk go ahead of me, because

823
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: if I it was me, I'd be like, like, you know,

824
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: then then it's all right if I say, hey, why

825
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: don't you go ahead of me? You just got the

826
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: one thing, but you have the cash radder person. The

827
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: cash riders should be saying, wait, let the muscle milk

828
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 1: buy or go first. He has only the one muscle milk.

829
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: We must honor this. But then to come back to

830
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: our a t M example, the first in, first out

831
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: principle might devolve into the shoving principle, right, and I

832
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: don't want to shove with the muscle milk guy because

833
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: he's pretty jack than Now here's another interesting spending all

834
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: of this. So, how does the presence of a line

835
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: and our place in a line impact our perceived value

836
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: of the thing we're waiting in line for? Be that thing? Uh,

837
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, it could be an experience who are waiting

838
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: to get on a line or or take a flight,

839
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: Or it could be an item we're buying. It could

840
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: be that cup of coffee that's scone, or that hot

841
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: dog what have you. So I was looking at an

842
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: article from ten titled a silver lining of standing in

843
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: line queuing increases value of products. This was published in

844
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: the Journal of Marketing Research by Minium Coup and uh

845
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: a lit fish back, and they point out that, first

846
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: of all, waiting in line obviously has both an economic

847
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: cost and a psychological cost. Like we said, long lines

848
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: can send the message that something is popular and in demand,

849
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: but lines can also impact customer UH satisfaction or impact

850
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 1: a business performance, and they point to several different studies

851
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: on this topic. They were particularly interested in the less

852
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: studied positive attributes of standing in line. So again, there's

853
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,439
Speaker 1: no doubt that a line can send a signal about

854
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: the perceived value of the thing waiting at the end

855
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: of the line. But they wanted to know how the

856
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: experience of queuing affected expectations of enjoyment. This is interesting

857
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: because it makes me think about cases where somebody makes

858
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: certain instances of being willing to wait in line a

859
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 1: part of their sort of personal brand or identity. Like,

860
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, you might be proud of the fact that

861
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: I waited overnight in line to be the first person

862
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: to get tickets to see the new Star Wars movie

863
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: or something, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, like

864
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: I am committing in a way, it's kind of like

865
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: proving like only someone this committed deserves to be first.

866
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: And uh, it's an interesting spent on the whole first

867
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: come first surf scenario. So the authors here they say, quote,

868
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: we propose that looking behind and perceiving real or illusionary

869
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: progress signals an increase in the product's value. As a result,

870
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 1: the consumer will not only expect to like, but also

871
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 1: actually like the product more and increase his or her expenditure.

872
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: So again, the idea is you're really looking forward to

873
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: buying that apple. But then the experience of waiting in

874
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: line and seeing people behind you in line that makes

875
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: the your anticipation of enjoyment of that apple even greater.

876
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's got the seeing people behind you in line,

877
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: more and more people lining up behind you, that makes

878
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: you feel like, hey, yeah, I've really got in there

879
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: at the right time. Yeah. So this is of course

880
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: in line with the sunk cost effect which the author's site.

881
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: The more time and effort that I've sunk into something,

882
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: the more fixed I'm going to be on the idea

883
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: that this was worth it, even if I've been burned

884
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: in the past. So the thing you're waiting in line

885
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: for then becomes more valuable than it was when you

886
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: began waiting in line for it. So the study itself,

887
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 1: which is like a series of I think five studies total,

888
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: is relatively small, but the results are still interesting. And

889
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into the methods of each

890
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: one because you can imagine how they conducted this. They

891
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: had people stand in line and they uh and they

892
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: questioned them, and they manipulated things a little bit too

893
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: to see, you know, how people reacted uh, And it's

894
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: it's pretty obvious from the results what they did. So

895
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: Study one found that the perceived value of a bagel

896
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: sandwich increased in keeping with the absolute number of people

897
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: behind the individual in line. Okay, so you see more

898
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: people coming in behind you, you like your sandwich more

899
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: and more, right now. Study to found that you could

900
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: experiment with the number of people behind the individual in

901
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: line to increase the perceived value of the food sample,

902
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: but adjusting the number of people ahead had no measurable effect. Okay,

903
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: I don't know how exactly that shakes out with their method,

904
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: but that sounds to me like it might be not

905
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: so much to the fact that you had to wait

906
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: a certain amount of time to get something is what

907
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: increases the perceived value. But seeing other people wanting the thing,

908
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: as demonstrated by their being behind you in the line

909
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: and and making you think of yourself as towards the

910
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 1: front of the line increases the value. Yeah. Yeah, the

911
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: idea that there are more people behind you is important

912
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: and and I think also it gets into the idea

913
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: that the blind is moving. You know, I am no

914
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: longer last in line. So Study three and four drove

915
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: home that the more you increased focus on the people

916
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: behind an individual in line, the greater the perceived value

917
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: of the thing that we're waiting on. And I found

918
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: this especially interesting when I think about the various lines

919
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: I've stood in for, say, amusement park rides, because some

920
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: of them do kind of force you to realize how

921
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: many people are still behind you in line, but others

922
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: snake you through and interesting and novel ways put you through,

923
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: you know, novel surroundings. Um though sometimes in those you

924
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: still get a glance back. You occasionally get that moment

925
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: to look back and see where you were previously. And

926
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: I imagine, given the amount of design that goes into

927
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: you know, some of these major US amusement parks, that

928
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: is probably intended. There's probably some bit of research where

929
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: they're like, look, it's great to to to give people

930
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 1: the feeling that they're you know, touring a haunted museum

931
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,439
Speaker 1: or something on their way to ride, but we also

932
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 1: need to remind them of how far they've come. Yeah,

933
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: So lines, if you've got a big serpentine line for

934
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: a ride, maybe you should wind it around one way

935
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: mirrors so the people towards the front of the line

936
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: can look back, but the people at the back can't.

937
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: Look ahead exactly. That seems like that would be very

938
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: much in keeping with this study, Like people need to

939
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: know that there are a lot of people behind them

940
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: in line. Uh, I guess the only the main time

941
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: you need I don't know if it's possible, but the

942
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 1: main time you would want to hide this from them

943
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 1: is if there are very few people behind them in line,

944
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: because that's when they're they're not going to there's not

945
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: going to be the benefit of this effect in place

946
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: that is a bad feeling. So we've been focusing on.

947
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: You know, obviously, businesses want to try to avoid discomfort

948
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: and displeasure coming from having to wait in line, because

949
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: it's generally understood correctly that most of the time waiting

950
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 1: in the line is unpleasant, people want to spend less

951
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: time doing it. But there can be times where the

952
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: line itself is kind of pleasurable, at least in my experience,

953
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: and it's when there's a line that moves very quickly. Uh.

954
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: You know, you get in a line and you just

955
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: zip right through it. I mean that almost kind of

956
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: feels good. Yeah, yeah, especially if your expectation is that

957
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: it will likely move slowly. Um. So yeah, there's always

958
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: that that point, or there's often that point. It's unfortunately

959
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: not always that point. There's often that point where you're like, oh, wow,

960
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: that that line moved pretty quickly, or or one that

961
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: I often find myself saying is oh, it looks like

962
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: we got here at the right time. That one, especially

963
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: if you you find yourself pretty far ahead in the

964
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: line or there are a lot of people behind you. Um,

965
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: then you you you kind of pat yourself in the back.

966
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, yeah, hit it at the right time,

967
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: right before the lynch rush. I think I saw that

968
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: recently on a like meme list of things Dad say. Yeah, well,

969
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: you know, um, as a parent especially, you're always having

970
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: to put positive spins on a situation, UH, where that

971
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: the child may think it's the the end of the

972
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: world that you're waiting at all on anything, and you

973
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,959
Speaker 1: have to say, well, hey, look look at the people

974
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: behind us. You know, look how far we've come, Look

975
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: how fast this line is moving, et cetera. Accentuate the positive.

976
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: So we'll probably get into this more in the next

977
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: part of the series, but one thing I wanted to

978
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 1: mention before we wrap up today is uh is one

979
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: example of the difference between objective weight times and perceived

980
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: weight times. Uh, they're just tons of studies that have

981
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: been done on all different kinds of things you can

982
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 1: do to make weight times in various forms of queuing

983
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 1: feel longer or shorter. Obviously, usually businesses want to find

984
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: ways to make them feel shorter. And a one strange

985
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: one I came across was a study by Steve Oakes

986
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: published in the Journal's Psychology and Marketing in two thousand

987
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: three called musical tempo and waiting perceptions. So you call

988
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: in for customer service on something, you're on the phone,

989
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: what what do they do while you're waiting on the phone.

990
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: Most of the time you get some music right right, yeah,

991
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: And if it's and if it's an episode of The Simpsons,

992
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: it will be something that is kind of cheekily connected

993
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: to the thing you're waiting on, right, oh yeah, Like

994
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: when they call in with the Krusty the clown doll

995
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: that's trying to kill Homer and it's singing everybody loves

996
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: the clown so why don't you? Um, Yeah, there's often

997
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: stuff like that, But you might wonder, Okay, what kind

998
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: of what kind of thought goes into choosing the music

999
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: that's that's on the line. I mean, maybe no thought.

1000
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: It might just be random, who knows what different businesses do,

1001
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: but there could be some actual research informing what the

1002
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: musical selections are. Because this study found a real relationship

1003
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: between people's satisfaction with weight times, and they're the perceived

1004
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: duration of weight times based on how fast or slow

1005
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: the music was the beats per minute. So the author

1006
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: here did a thing that that was pretty clever instead

1007
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: of having to instead of playing different, you know, selected

1008
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: songs from popular music which people might already have associations

1009
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: with that could screw things up. Instead, the author here

1010
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: he used digital technology to play the same instrumental music

1011
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: samples with and with variability by tempo, just to isolate

1012
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: the variable of tempo and play basically the same songs

1013
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: faster or slower and see how that would affect people's

1014
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: perception of weight times. That they did this during UH

1015
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: students having to wait on undergraduate registration for for a college.

1016
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: And what the author found here was a significant positive

1017
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: relationship between the tempo of the background music and the

1018
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: perceived weight time. So what that means is slower tempo

1019
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 1: music made people feel like the weight time was less

1020
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: and faster tempo music made people feel like the weight

1021
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: was going on longer, which is actually a little counterintuitive

1022
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: to me. I might have assumed the opposite, but but

1023
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 1: it it is sort of in keeping with the kind

1024
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: of music I'm more often here when I'm waiting on

1025
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: hold to get something, you know, I'm queuing on the telephone.

1026
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: It's it's not usually they're not usually playing Moe her

1027
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: Head right, you know. It's it's something it's very like

1028
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,959
Speaker 1: slow and languid. It's supposed to be relaxing sounding music.

1029
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: I remember, uh, way back when we were when we

1030
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: were owned by Discovery and we had to call in

1031
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: for a meeting. There was some old music in the

1032
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: waiting room for for our meeting software, and one of

1033
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: the songs was something I called the Spanish Villa song. Oh.

1034
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 1: It was kind of a Spanish guitar type thing. Yeah, yeah,

1035
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: but it was very it was very like you know,

1036
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: a nap on a sunny afternoon. Yeah. Yeah. And it

1037
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, I think it makes perfect sense

1038
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: because I think of like a nice, fast tempo song.

1039
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: I think of the BGS staying Alive, and like, that's

1040
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: a song when you hear it, if you hear it

1041
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,240
Speaker 1: while you're walking. You were going to quicken your pace

1042
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: and walk along with that song. It's a song that

1043
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: makes you feel like you're getting stuff done, you're going

1044
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: places in life. It is the complete opposite of what

1045
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: waiting on hold feels like. So it it does seem

1046
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 1: like like playing staying alive would be a terrible idea

1047
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: for any kind of you know, on whole music situation. Yeah,

1048
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: I guess you're right about that. I guess I just

1049
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't have thought that. But so there is a wrinkle

1050
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: to this though, the effect of the music tempo on

1051
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 1: perceived weight times is dependent on the objective length of

1052
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: the weight time, so it breaks down like this. For

1053
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: short weights defined in the study is between four and

1054
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, slow music not only reduced perceived weight time,

1055
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: it reduced perceived weight time below objective weight time. So

1056
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 1: if you're waiting less than fifteen minutes, slow tempo music

1057
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: on average actually made the weight feel shorter than it

1058
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: actually was, whereas fast tempo music made it feel significantly

1059
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: longer than that, and then the control with no music

1060
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: made it feel even longer than the fast tempo music.

1061
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: So no music was the worst condition of all interesting. Yeah. Yeah,

1062
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: no music would be the worst, it seems, because then

1063
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: you don't even know if you're on hold anymore, right,

1064
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: Like the music lets me not even if the music

1065
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: were were incorrect, if the music were like fast paced

1066
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: and making it everything stretch out more, at least I

1067
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: know that I'm still connected. Right. Oh that that's a

1068
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 1: good point for telephone examples of this especially. Yeah. Um,

1069
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: But so the interesting thing was the benefits of slow

1070
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: tempo music over fast tempo music disappeared with longer waits.

1071
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: So once you get into between eighteen and twenty five

1072
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: minutes of waiting, Uh, suddenly the slow tempo music getting

1073
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: any better than fast tempo music. Though maybe both conditions

1074
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: of having music or a little bit better than no

1075
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: music at all. Okay, makes sense? All right, Well, I

1076
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: think we need to cut it there for part one,

1077
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: but we're gonna be back in another part to talk

1078
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: about all kinds of other things about queuing. Yeah. Now,

1079
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: certainly if you have thoughts, go ahead and send them in,

1080
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: though you know your experience with with waiting in line

1081
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: and how they match up with some of what we've

1082
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: discussed here. Uh, and yeah, join us for the next episode.

1083
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: We will continue the journey in the meantime, If you

1084
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to

1085
00:55:58,560 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, you'll find them in the Stuff to

1086
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind feed, which is the podcast feed you

1087
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: can find wherever you get your podcasts, wherever that happens

1088
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: to be. We just asked you rate, review, and subscribe.

1089
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: You can check out core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

1090
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: Artifact on Wednesday, We've got a little listener mail for you.

1091
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 1: On Mondays and Fridays, Is Weird How Cinema? Those are

1092
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 1: the episodes where we don't really talk about the science

1093
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: and the culture so much as we just talk about

1094
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: some weird movie and maybe tying a little science and

1095
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: culture if we want. But this is just our way

1096
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: of closing out the week. Huge thanks as always to

1097
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would

1098
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

1099
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

1100
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email

1101
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1102
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio.

1103
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart

1104
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your

1105
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: favorite shows. Blah blah blah. Busy point to four foot

1106
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: FO