1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: and his thirty years struggle on San Quentin's Death Row, 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: a petition on his behalf. Visit free Jarvis dot org 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: Slash podcast to sign your name to. An open letter 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: Dear Governor Newsom. When we launched Season one of Dear Governor, 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: soon after Gavin Newsom put a moratorium on the practice 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: in California, there were seven hundred and thirty seven men 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: on San Quentin's death Row. Flash forward a little over 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: a year and now there are only seven hundred and 14 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: seven men living on death row. Third, Americans died not 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: from executions, but from the unconscionable outbreak of COVID nineteen 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: at San Quentin, as well as death by suicide brought 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: about by the hopelessness on condemned row. When we started 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: helping to amplify Jervis's story, our team had a thimblefull 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: of knowledge about the practice of capital punishment. Jarvis has 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: taught us what it's like on the inside of death row. 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: But one of our most trusted resources on the outside 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: that we've relied on endlessly is The Martial Project, a 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: nonprofit news organization whose mission is to demystify our criminal 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: justice system. So when Maurice Schama, a staff writer at 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: The Marshall Project, published his in depth tome on the 26 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: history and future of the death penalty, we invited him 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: to visit the podcast of his book, Let the Lords 28 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: Sort Them, The Rise and Fall of the Death Penalty. 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: Publishers Weekly wrote a nuanced and deeply reported account of 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: evolving attitudes towards the death penalty in America, a thorough, 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: finally written, an unflinching look at one of the most 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: controversial aspects of the American justice system. I read that 33 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: book and it's jam packed with with research and stories. 34 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm curious how long, because I know it was a 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,119 Speaker 1: long process for you to write the book. How long 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: into the process of compiling your work did you realize 37 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: that you would be writing about the rise and the 38 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: fall of the death penalty? Actually, fairly early on, so 39 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: I first started learning about the death penalty in round 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: two thousen. One of my first jobs after college was 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: at a small nonprofit that was doing oral history research 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: on the death penalty, and this involved driving around Texas 43 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,119 Speaker 1: and interviewing family members of murder victims and people who 44 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: had been executed, and prosecutors and defense attorneys, and a 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: lot of those people we interviewed talked about the nineteen 46 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: nineties as a kind of heyday of the death penalty, 47 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: and I dimly remembered this for many years before, you know, 48 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: I had grown up in Texas. I had remembered an 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: era in which we were so strongly associated with the 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: death penalty in Texas, especially when George W. Bush, who 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: was the governor of the state, was running for president 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: and the death penalty seemed to be in the news 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: a lot because he had overseen so many executions. But 54 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: even by two thousand and ten, it was clear that 55 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: the death penalty had sort of lost its cultural hold. 56 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: I didn't at that point know that the fall of 57 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: the death penalty could could also be told, you know, 58 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: in terms of numbers, that the number of executions and 59 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: death sentences was going down. But even by you know, 60 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: about ten years ago, there was a sense that we 61 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: were past the culture war heyday of the death penalty, 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: where it dominated presidential debate stages and gubernatorial campaigns and 63 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: didn't even dinner table conversations. We sort of moved on 64 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: to other issues, and so there was the sense that 65 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: already the death penalty kind of hold on America was 66 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: a bit in the past. And then as I continued 67 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: as a journalist, getting into the death penalty as a 68 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: subject area and reporting on cases, I started to learn 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: about the big systemic reasons why the death penalty had 70 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: been disappearing. Did the influx of executions by Trump at 71 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: all make you think that you're hypothesis might not be right? 72 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: It's a great question. So the fall of the death 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: penalty is something that you can see in sheer numbers. 74 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: You know, there were almost a hundred executions per year 75 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: at the end of the nineties into the year two 76 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: thousand and now, even with Trump's executions, you're seeing roughly 77 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: twenty or less every year. The coronavirus brought those numbers 78 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: down even further. But even aside from from these sort 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: of big, you know, one year forces like the Trump 80 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: executions or or the coronavirus, um you're just seeing fewer 81 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: executions year by year, and even more dramatically, you're seeing 82 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: a fewer new people sentenced to death. There were three 83 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty death sentences handed down in the United 84 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: States in nine six, and there were thirty four handed 85 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: down in twenty nineteen. The drop is also dramatic. In Texas, 86 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: where I live and which was the epicenter of the 87 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: death penalty, there were forty death sentences in ninety six 88 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: and four in twenty nineteen, so really really huge drops. 89 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,679 Speaker 1: And that means that eventually there will be so few 90 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: people sentenced to death that there will sort of be 91 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: no one left to execute if you follow these numbers 92 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: out to their logical conclusion. Now, the reasons for that 93 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: are complex, and there's a lot of them. Um. One 94 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: of them is simply that crime disappeared. The rate of 95 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: violent crime in the United States was much higher in 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties and nineties than it is today. That 97 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: means that there's fewer cases where the death penalty is 98 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: an option by law. But it also means that crime 99 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: is not the political issue that it once was. I mean, 100 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: I think the death penalty came so much of the 101 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: foreground partially because elected officials had an interest in using 102 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: it as a way to show that they were doing 103 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: something about crime. Whether or not it really does do 104 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: something about crime is a separate question. But governors, prosecutors, judges, presidents, 105 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: all of these are elected positions where appearing to be 106 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: tough on crime is important and addressing crime is difficult, 107 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: But the death penalty is sort of an easy way 108 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: to say, look, I'm really doing something. So over the 109 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: course of the early two thousand nine, really the nineties 110 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: and early two thousand's, you started to see a handful 111 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: of high profile cases of innocent people exonerated from death row. 112 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: He started to see d n A testing grow and 113 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: sophistication and and be able to prove that some people 114 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: who had been sentenced to death were, you know, truly innocent. 115 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: And this really shook people's confidence in the death penalty. 116 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: One thing I write about in the book is how 117 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: it kind of cast a new light on old problems. 118 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: So you may have heard that, you know, somebody was 119 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: given a really terrible lawyer who fell asleep during the trial. 120 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: But if you ultimately think that everyone is guilty and 121 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: deserve the death penalty anyway than a sleeping lawyer doesn't 122 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: feel like a big deal. But if innocent people are 123 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: being sentenced to death, then a sleeping lawyer feels like 124 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: a really big deal. So I think innocence kind of 125 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: cast a lot of old problems into a new light 126 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: because it raised the stakes in how this system produces injustice. Yeah. Jervis, 127 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: whom this podcast is really focused on, speaks very eloquently 128 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: about that innocent people change his mind. It has in 129 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: every state. You will probably see that change. The death 130 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: pilling is because they found too many innocent people on 131 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: death row. The money didn't do it. The more consciousness 132 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: of the communities in the state didn't do it. They 133 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: did not want their tax dollars to kill an innocent 134 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: man period. I can imagine seven people in an auditorium 135 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: and they all talk about their experiences of being seconds 136 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: away from being executed. That would turn people a gives 137 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: the pilly in my opinion, very fast, sery fast, because 138 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: we're looking at seven human beings that we paid to 139 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: be executed. That really gets to the consciousness of people. 140 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: Let's see what happens. I think most people in America 141 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: would say, Wow, this is not for me. No, no, no, no, no, 142 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: you guys got this all wrong. Jarvis says. The more 143 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: people see that that is a reality, that that will 144 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: fundamentally change our our dialogue. It's true, it has really 145 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: changed the dialogue. It used to be that it was 146 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: just assumed that everyone in the Republican Party supported the 147 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: death penalty, and most of or many of the people 148 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party as supported the death penalty too. 149 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,719 Speaker 1: I mean, famously, Bill Clinton flew to Arkansas from the 150 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: campaign trail in two to oversee and execution so that 151 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: he could bolster his sense of being tough on crime. 152 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: Fast forward to today, and you're seeing bills to repeal 153 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: the death penalty brought to state legislatures by Republican lawmakers 154 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: joined by Democrats. And there's no longer a sense that 155 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: you are imperiling yourself at the ballot box by coming 156 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: out against the death penalty. And I think a big 157 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 1: reason for that has been that these innocence cases have 158 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: shaken people's confidence and made them see that the system 159 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: is rife with human error all the way through. And 160 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: I should also say on that score that innocence doesn't 161 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: only affect innocent prisoners, by which I mean, you know, 162 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: if lawmakers are worried about innocence, and then they increase 163 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: the funding for defense lawyers, for example, or they give 164 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: more forms of appeal to people on death row. That 165 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: also helps people who are guilty of the crimes but 166 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: maybe have arguments like that they suffered a constitutional violation 167 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: at their trial, or that they're mentally ill, or that 168 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: they suffered trauma as a child that was ignored by 169 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: the jury and the judge the and that should have 170 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: been you know, more fully developed and discussed, and that 171 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: their death sentency knows unjust because of these horrors in 172 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: their own past. So in a sense, it was sort 173 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: of a kind of a way into a lot of 174 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: broader issues about the death penalties, kind of systemic human 175 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: based problems. You know, as we are recording this interview, 176 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: there are over two million votes to recall Governor Newsome. 177 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: And UM, I'm wondering what you think because he was 178 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: the one who put the moratorium, um, the death penalty 179 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: in California. And is there a reason in your mind 180 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: for for San Quentin death row people to be nervous 181 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: at this point. Yeah, I do think that the death 182 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: penalty historically has obeyed what I sometimes call a law 183 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: of backlash, so the death penalty was disappearing in uh 184 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: popularity in use in the nineteen sixties, and then in 185 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: the seventy two the Supreme Court ruled that all death 186 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,599 Speaker 1: penalty laws around the country were unconstitutional and needed to 187 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: be rewritten. And it was actually that decision that sparked 188 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: a big rise in support for the death penalty in 189 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: polls and a lot of political pressure on leaders to 190 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: come out for the death penalty. And it's almost as 191 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: if people don't realize that they like the death penalty 192 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: until they feel deprived of it. And I think that 193 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: you're seeing a similar dynamic in California, where you know, 194 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: Governor Newsome kind of went out on a limb. He 195 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: dismantled the death chamber, which is a very visually symbolic 196 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: thing to do. You know, Newsome dismantled the death chamber 197 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: and issue this moratorium, and that made the news and 198 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: was very dramatic. But it was not like CALIFORNI. You 199 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: had been carrying out lots and lots of executions before that. 200 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: The death penalty in California had been this very kind 201 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: of quiet punishman, at least in comparison to states like Texas, Georgia, Florida. 202 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: I mean, California was famous for having hundreds and hundreds 203 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: of people on death row and very few executions because 204 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: it seemed like there was very little political appetite to 205 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: actually carry them out. But then by going out on 206 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: a limb and making a big symbolic gesture as Newsom did, 207 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: he kind of set things up for a backlash for 208 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: people to say, wait a minute, we do want the 209 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: death penalty. And and we didn't even really realize we 210 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: were being deprived of it before because we weren't paying attention. 211 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: But now since you've dismantled the death chamber, we're paying 212 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: attention and we're mad oft. I think people believe it. 213 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: If you stand in line, you vote on the death 214 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: pailly and then fold is discredited and taken away from 215 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: people are upset and they voted for the death pilty, 216 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: it keep believe it. They will stolen and the victim's 217 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: handle right to have this bill taken someone like that, 218 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: and that is a response to the governor. There's a 219 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: lot of people who get ready spent a lot of 220 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: money to put the defilty back in action. I think 221 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: a lot of death row prisoners and definitely their lawyers 222 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: would prefer for some of these issues to just remain 223 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: out of the public eye because they know that when 224 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: they're in the public eye, it puts all of them 225 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: in a in a kind of danger that was sort 226 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: of on the firing line, so to speak, the ultimate 227 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: of unintended consequences. I guess absolutely absolutely. You know, others 228 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,599 Speaker 1: have have compared it to Roe v. Wade, where the 229 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: sort of drama of that Supreme Court decision then spurred 230 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: this whole kind of conservative movement to to limit abortion, 231 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: and history may have, you know, played out differently had 232 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: it just you know, abortion had a history that was 233 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: much quieter and sort of behind the scenes. Um so, yeah, 234 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: history does not move in a straight line. What do 235 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: you think about the fact that the Supreme Court has 236 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: been completely changed and altered based on Trump? Is that 237 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: going to impact how capital punishment is looked at at 238 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: that level with so many conservative judges on the High Court. 239 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: It is we are already seeing that the Supreme Court 240 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: is much more hostile to the claims of death throat 241 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: prisoners than they had been even five years ago. Five 242 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: years ago, there was even a moment in which defense 243 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: lawyers who opposed the death penalty thought there was some 244 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: chance that the Court could go their way and rule 245 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: to abolish the death penalty once and for all. It 246 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: really all came down to Anthony Kennedy's vote. There was 247 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: this feeling that along with Kennedy there were four liberals 248 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: who could strike down the punishment. Then, of course Trump 249 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: was elected, and he eventually came to a point three 250 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: people to the court. And now the Supreme Court has 251 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: had a series of opportunities to stop executions and has 252 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: basically taken none of them. This was most dramatically visible 253 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: during the run of executions under President Trump. He oversaw 254 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: thirteen executions and all of those prisoners brought claims to 255 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court at the last minute, and all of 256 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: them were rejected by the Court. And what this suggests 257 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: to me is that the death penalty is it's still 258 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: in decline, as I've said before, but the Supreme Court's 259 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: lack of interest sort of changes the arena where the 260 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: fights are going to happen. So it's going to be 261 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: less in the courts, less the Supreme Court, and it's 262 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: going to be more in state legislatures and in Congress. 263 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: Where As I said, you know, you're seeing moves to 264 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: repeal the death penalty or to limit it. Ohio now 265 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: has a bill with bipartisan backing to abolished the death penalty, 266 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: and even Wyoming, which by all accounts is a very 267 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: red state, has a bill to abolished death penalty and 268 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: a conversation going on there that it would have been 269 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: unthinkable five years ago. So I think that the Supreme Court, 270 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: by supporting the death penalty so strongly, has sort of 271 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: taken itself out of the real debate about the punishment's future. 272 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: Got it. You know? I read a review of your book, 273 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: Let the Lord Start Them in the New York Times, 274 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: and in it they referenced Texas is to America what 275 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: America is to the world, because your focus is on 276 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: the Texas capital punishment system. I thought that was a 277 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: really interesting line. And you know, that New York Times 278 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: review of my book had analysis in it that even 279 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: I had not reached. And it was a kind of 280 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: really pleasant moment of thinking, while you do all this 281 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: research and you write a book, but that's not the 282 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: last word, because other people will sort of see things 283 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: in what you're doing, but even you can't see I 284 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: had picked Texas to focus on in the book, because 285 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: it has been the epicenter of executions in the United 286 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: States over the last forty years. So there have been, 287 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: you know, a little more than executions, and more than 288 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: five hundred of them have been here in Texas. So 289 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: the state really punches above its way by any metric. 290 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: And even more than that, Texas has a cultural association 291 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: with the death penalty. Once I started noticing this, I 292 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: started seeing it everywhere. I found at the pisodes of 293 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: The Simpsons and Saturday Night Live that referenced Texas as 294 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: particular zeal for the death penalty. A comedian Ron White 295 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: always had this joke about you know, you come to 296 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: Texas and kill somebody, we will kill you back, and 297 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: you would always be lass for that line, right, very 298 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: dark By years and and then even further in the weeds, 299 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: I would read journalism articles about the death penalty and 300 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: other states, maybe states where the death penalty didn't exist 301 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: or was less popular, and you would see a victims 302 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: family member, you know, in a murder case, say I 303 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: wish we were in Texas because if we were in Texas, 304 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: this guy would be on you know, the conveyor belt 305 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: to death row, and that's that would be justice and 306 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm mad that I'm in Michigan or Massachusetts 307 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: and we don't have the death penalty. So Texas plays 308 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: this role, and it's it's sort of where Americans look 309 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: when we, you know, want to think about the part 310 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: of ourselves that is very retributive. It is very punitive 311 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: and revenge oriented when it comes to crime. You know, people, 312 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: every human being has these differ for an sorts of 313 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: impulses about how we react to shocking information. And so 314 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: when there's a murder, there's a part of ourselves that 315 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: is maybe interested in revenge, and there's a part of 316 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: ourselves that thinks, well, this person who who committed murder, 317 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: maybe there's more to them, maybe they had a mental illness, 318 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: maybe there's an explanation for this, or maybe they're innocent. 319 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: But when we orient ourselves towards the kind of punitive, 320 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: revenge oriented way of thinking, we often sort of looked 321 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: to Texas as the place that's bringing that impulse into 322 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: its full form, right where the whole judicial system is 323 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: sort of oriented around that impulse. And it's almost a 324 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of self reinforcing feedback loop where Texas here people 325 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: in other states say that and they say, yeah, that's right, 326 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: that is who we are. And I you know, growing 327 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: up in Texas always heard California used as the kind 328 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: of foil of like, oh, well, there's a bunch of 329 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: liberal cities in California, But us in Texas where the 330 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: where the strong conservatives who who execute murders. Um. So 331 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: I think you know that line Texas is to America, 332 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: in America is to the world. Similar early people around 333 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: the world kind of look to America as having a 334 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: particularly harsh, revenge oriented justice system, and and then within America, 335 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: Texas kind of plays that cultural role for all of us. 336 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: Is that kind of the wild wild West mentality it is? 337 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: It's it's based on this idea. I think that partially 338 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: stems back historically to the frontier, the idea that in 339 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, early American settlement of the West, you didn't 340 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: have time to have a full trial and you needed 341 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: to just you know, string up the cattle rustler from 342 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: the nearest tree. Um. This is the image we get 343 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: in a lot of old Western films that are often 344 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: set in Texas. And we don't necessarily as a country 345 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: want to return fully to that, but there is a 346 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: kind of nostalgia for it this idea that, oh, it's 347 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: too bad it had to be that way, But we 348 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: were the rough and tumble frontier cowboys that that just 349 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: had to like take justice into our own hands. I 350 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: read a lot in the book about how I think 351 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: that that was a bit of a smoke screen for 352 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: the actual history of extra judicial justice. Right of taking 353 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: justice into our own hands, It was much more often 354 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: a way of reinforcing racial oppression. Right. It was much 355 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: more often a way of white mobs of people, you know, 356 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: not waiting for a trial and taking up black man 357 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: who had been accused of a crime and hanging him 358 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: or burning him in the public square. Lynch mob is exactly. 359 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: And we can kind of paper over that history by saying, oh, well, 360 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: let's watch the movie, the miniseries Lonesome Dove, you know, 361 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: or or some John Wayne movies. It wasn't really about race. 362 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: It was just about some cattle wrestlers. And I think 363 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: that all of that kind of deep cultural material is 364 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: sort of there in the back of our minds as 365 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: we debate the contemporary death penalty. Yeah, about the lawyers 366 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: litigating the death penalty in the book, you you write, 367 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: whether they know it or not, they lay out the 368 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: cold facts and legal principles. They are also helping us 369 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: answer some of our deepest questions. Can a person be evil? 370 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: What does justice mean? Now you have dug into this 371 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: for the last decade, what is your feeling how you 372 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: answer those questions? Can a person be evil? I think 373 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: the research for this book it really changed me as 374 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: a person in the sense that it forced me to 375 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: really reckon with some of these deeper questions that I 376 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: had never reckoned with before. And so, you know, I 377 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: had always just had the kind of um simplistic categories 378 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: of good and evil that they're you know, good people 379 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: and evil people, and you know they're heroes and villains 380 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: as we see in movies. But what I learned through 381 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: the research is that you end up kind of getting 382 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: to where you want to get based on the way 383 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: that you end up sort of the way that you 384 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: start looking at the situation. And that sounds very abstract, 385 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: but what I mean is, you know, I interviewed these 386 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: defense lawyers who would start off by saying, I don't 387 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: anyone is evil. I don't think you know, there are 388 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: obviously evil acts, but you know who come from a 389 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: place that's very much hate the sin and love the sinner, 390 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: and they think that anyone who commits a really atrocious 391 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: murder there must be sort of some damage in their 392 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: earlier life that produced that evil, terrible impulse in them 393 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: that lead to a terrible crime. And then these defense 394 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: lawyers go and they and they research the life history 395 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: of the person they representing, and they end up finding 396 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: out usually that they're right, that there's all kinds of trauma, 397 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, poverty, addiction, the entire laundry list of horrors 398 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: that one can go through in their life. You almost 399 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: always see those in the life stories of people who 400 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: are facing their penalty and who commit really atrocious crimes. 401 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: And so they ended up kind of teaching me over 402 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: the course of the book, research and bringing me along, 403 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: I think to that point of view, not the point 404 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: of view that the death penalty is unjust as a 405 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: sort of separate question, but the idea that there's no 406 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: such thing as an inherently evil person, right, that these 407 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: categories that we have they're useful, and that they allow 408 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: us to to see the world clearly, but they can 409 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: also obscure things and make as see that nobody kind 410 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,959 Speaker 1: of commits a terrible crime in a vacuum out of nowhere, 411 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: just sort of wakes up one day and decides to 412 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: do it. Almost always, there's going to be all kinds 413 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: of horrible things in that person's life that kind of 414 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: produced that evil outcome. And those evils aren't just about 415 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: that one person. They're the evils of poverty, of addiction, 416 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: of our society's failure to deal with mental health adequately. 417 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: Um And those are evils that are ultimately kind of 418 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: on all of us as opposed to on the individual 419 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: who committed the crime. On the show, we talked a 420 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: lot about how the death penalty obviously doesn't just impact 421 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: those people that are on death row, but their family members, 422 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: their friends, the correctional officers, and so forth. But you 423 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: right and dedicate a lot of the time in the 424 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: book to Chaplain Carol Pickett, and he oversaw what almost 425 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: a hundred executions, And I'm wondering, how does a man 426 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: of faith come to terms with that kind of a responsibility. 427 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: What did you observe in him through all of his experiences. 428 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: I opened the book with Carol Pickett, who, as you say, 429 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: was the chaplain who oversaw and worked on all these executions, 430 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: and what that meant was that he would get to 431 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: know the man who was going to be executed, usually 432 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: on the day of the execution, and try to help 433 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: him get his spiritual affairs in order. And I opened 434 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,239 Speaker 1: the book with him partially because I felt like there 435 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: was something very relatable. And you know, not every reader 436 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: and certainly not I are are people of the cloth, 437 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: but we, I think can identify with his, you know, 438 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: competing impulses. That he went to work for the prison 439 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: system because he wanted to help people, and then suddenly 440 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: he's being asked to minister them before their death, and 441 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: he felt very torn about that. He eventually came to 442 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: terms with it by saying, you know, at the very least, 443 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: I could be somebody who, you know, gave some care 444 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: to this person in their worst hours and their final hours, 445 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: and I could sort of provide the service and be 446 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't stand in judgment of them, you know, 447 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: be a non judgmental kind of calming force for them 448 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: as they deal with this, because ultimately, this system is 449 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: going to exist with or without me as an individual. 450 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: But then as time went on, he started to feel 451 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: I think very co opted by that system, this idea 452 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: that it was kind of contorting him and traumatizing him 453 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: as well. Carol Pickett writes very movingly about the idea 454 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: that a particular man named Carlos de Luna who was 455 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: executed was totally innocent of the crime, and pick It 456 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: really couldn't shake that. And then even as he was 457 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: dealing with his own trauma, other men who worked on 458 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: the executions started to come to him and talk about 459 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: the trauma they were experiencing, that they were seeing the 460 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: faces of the people they had helped to execute when 461 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 1: they tried to go to sleep at night, that they 462 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: were shaking and crying and having almost something like a 463 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: panic attack when they would hear about executions on the radio. 464 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: And Carol Pickett, over the course of his long career, 465 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: came to oppose the death penalty. When I interviewed him 466 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: a few years ago, he had been retired for quite 467 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: a while, and I got the sense that the death 468 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: penalty had really, you know, broken a piece of him 469 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: and and really taken a lot out of him in 470 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: his life. When I would ask him these questions about 471 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: the death penalty, he just frankly seems kind of exhausted 472 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: by the idea that he had been privy to so 473 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: much trauma through the course of witnessing all of these 474 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: executions and meeting all of these men before their death, 475 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: and I think that really drove home for me the 476 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: idea that even if you believe the death penalty is 477 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: moral and just, and even if every single person who 478 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: is executed is completely guilty and guilty of a really 479 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: horrendous crime that everyone can agree on, even then the 480 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: death penalty has some serious problems in the way that 481 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: it produces trauma for the people who have to carry 482 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: it out right, that it's going to have to involve 483 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: humans at various stages of the process, not just you know, 484 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: of course executioners and chaplains, but jurors have to decide 485 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: to send someone to death row. Judges have to, you know, 486 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: rule these cases. Prosecutors have to pursue them. And I 487 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: saw that you can't have that system without it traumatizing 488 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: and hurting a lot of people, even beyond the immediate 489 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: circle of people closest to the execution. Yeah, do you 490 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: believe in redemption that the people were executing maybe different 491 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: from the person who committed the crime. I do, And 492 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: particularly because there have just been so many examples where 493 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: you see a really transformed person. One case that really 494 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: sticks with me, and I think sticks with a lot 495 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: of Americans who still remember it because it was so 496 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: haunting on this score was the case of Carla fay Tucker. 497 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: She was executed in she had committed a really atrocious 498 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: murder where she had left a pick axe in one 499 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: of her victims. But while on death row, she had 500 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: a really dramatic conversion to Christianity. She became born again, 501 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: and she wanted to devote her life to helping other 502 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: women in prison. She had no, you know, idea that 503 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: she was ever going to be released, but she thought 504 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: I could spend the rest of my life in prison 505 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: serving as a kind of mentor to people. And I 506 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: never met Carlia fay Tucker, but in the course of 507 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: my reporting on the criminal justice system, I've met a 508 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: lot of both death row prisoners and also just life 509 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: sentenced prisoners who committed a murder when they were quite 510 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: young and now are tremendously transformed as people and really 511 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: want to devote their lives to helping. You know, the 512 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: young men and women who maybe come through prison for 513 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: a year or two or five years kind of transform 514 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: themselves so that when they go back out into the 515 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: free world, they can rebuild their lives and avoid the 516 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: sorts of decisions that led them down a path of 517 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: committing crime. And I've seen a lot of cases where 518 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: it seemed like by executing somebody we kind of lost 519 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: that human potential for them to be a mentor and 520 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: a helper to other people. Can you describe to me 521 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: what you think justice looks like to really really complet question? 522 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: Isn't it? It is? But I mean you brought it 523 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: up and in I mean, what's the answer because I 524 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: struggle with that as well, like l life without the 525 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: possibility of parole is it sounds like a heinous punishment 526 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: And at the same time, obviously execution is as well. 527 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: I see you see the decline in the death penalty. 528 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: Will we ever see a decline in life without parole? 529 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: I think that's the question that we now all face, 530 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, as Americans. I think that's the moment that 531 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: we're in. There's this moment where and this was part 532 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: of the um I think for me, the idea of 533 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: writing this book now was that we've we have seen 534 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: a decline in the death penalty, but we've also seen 535 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: a rise in life without parole, and it has also 536 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: proven very difficult to reduce the number of people in 537 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: prison even as a wider society. We um, there's been 538 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: an acknowledgement, both on the right and the left, that 539 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: too many people are in prison for too long. Um 540 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: you'll see it kind of by a partisan consensus around 541 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: that idea. But then when you get into the weeds 542 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: and really start talking about releasing people earlier, especially for 543 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: violent crimes, which many many people are in prison for, 544 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: there's a pause, right, and there's a fear that we're 545 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: somehow undermining justice. I do think that I have learned 546 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: through all of this research that for me personally, justice 547 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: has to mean something more than just punishment. It also 548 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: has to mean reparation. And by that I mean that 549 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: when someone is murdered, they leave behind a family and 550 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: loved ones who are seeking something in exchange for the 551 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: trauma and horror that they went through. And for many, 552 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: many years, our logic has been that punishment for the 553 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: person who committed the murder is that thing that we 554 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: give back to that victim family. But you now also 555 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: see victim family members who say, no, justice for us, 556 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: isn't locking this person up forever? And throwing away the key. 557 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: And it's not executing them, it's allowing us, for example, 558 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,719 Speaker 1: to speak to that person through a process of these 559 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: sorts of programs that are called restorative justice, or it's 560 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: it's for us to know that some policy changes are 561 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: being made so that this is never going to happen 562 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: again to anyone else's loved one, not just because this 563 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: person goes to prison, but because we address our mental 564 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 1: health system to try to prevent future crimes, or we 565 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: address our our gun laws because of the availability of 566 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: this a r fIF team that this young man had 567 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: when he committed the murder. I mean, every case is different, 568 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: but there are always going to be systemic sort of 569 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: issues and and and larger narratives that get brought into 570 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: the discussion when you look at why a crime happens. 571 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: And I think that justice has to be understood in 572 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: a very in a more complex, bigger, and more three 573 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: dimensional way to mean not just what do we do 574 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: to this person who committed this crime, but also how 575 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: do we deliver some kind of healing for the people 576 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: who suffered this trauma? What does that look like and 577 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: and does that involve something bigger than just putting this 578 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: person away. I do think that sort of where in 579 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: this really exciting in a way moment. I mean, everything 580 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: I've just talked about is very doom and gloom, but 581 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: there is a lot of really exciting experimentation and the 582 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. I've written a lot over the last 583 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: few years about prison officials in the United States who 584 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: have gone to Germany and Norway and have come back 585 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: and have been trying to implement their ideas ideas to 586 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: make American prisons more rehabilitative. I mentioned before that older 587 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: prisoners who were in prison for life off become mentors 588 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: to young men, and in Connecticut there's actually like a 589 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: formalized program now where they live together, and these older 590 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: prisoners are enlisted by the prison officials to figure out, 591 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: like what do these young men need? How do we 592 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: prevent future crime? And all of that is tremendously exciting, 593 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: and so I definitely plan to keep reporting on this 594 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: sort of rich world of experimentation as we sort of 595 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: grapple uncertainly forward in trying to figure out what justice 596 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: is going to mean for us as Americans. Maurice's book 597 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: is Let the Lords Sort Them. The Rise and Fall 598 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: of the Death Penalty next week. The Awake Network and 599 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: Shambla Publications recently hosted a free online event, the Black 600 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: and Buddhist Summit, that attracted over ten thousand participants. Jarvis 601 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: was a keynote speaker, talking about race transformation and the 602 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: experience of being black while Buddhist on Death Row. This 603 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: episode was written and produced by Donna Fazzari and myself, 604 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: Corny Cole. Our theme song sentenced is compliments of the 605 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: band Stick Figure from their album Set in Stone. Stu 606 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: Sternbach composed the original music. Nate Dufort did the sound design. 607 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: For more information on Jarvis and to find out how 608 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: you can follow his case and support his cause, please 609 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: visit free Jarvis dot org. For more podcasts. For my 610 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 611 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. M h 612 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: m hm