WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 72 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.680 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.520 there's got to be nothing new here for you, But 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:29.160 you can make your own decisions. Hot fucking Moses, Welcome 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.240 to it could happen here. The podcast that is sometimes 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.680 introduced by me, Robert Evans, other times it's introduced by 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.879 James Stout or Mia Wong, who are both on the 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.960 call today. How's everybody doing? Pretty good? We've we've we've 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:48.920 declared victory over the balloon. Yeah we we Finally the 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.320 F twenty two gets its first air to air kill. 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:58.240 Yeah yeah, yeahs later. We did it, guys, we did it. 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.240 We really can. Like the F tway two is like 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.480 God's perfect killing machine. Yeah, and it's thus it is 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.800 like it is a six hundred and it was like 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.560 a sixty seven billion dollar aircraft. Completely. It is a 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.959 it is a perfect air It is a perfect air 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.720 superiority craft. Which in modern warfare makes it slightly less 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.319 useful than an eight hundred and fifty dollars DJA i'd 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:28.080 drone with hand grenades. Yeah yeah, I express. I cannot 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.520 think of like a better metaphor to understand how the 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:32.920 US Army works than shooting a using it using a 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.680 sixty seven billion dollar aircraft to shoot a three hundred 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.520 and sixty one thousand dollars missile at a balloon. Just 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:44.520 like listen, somebody several balloons in his life, ammitately, not 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.520 this high up. It is extremely entertaining. And uh yeah, 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.120 I can't fault that pilot. I am deeply disappointed in 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.200 rural America that no crazy rich guy with a cessna 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.440 flew his friend with a fifty cow up to like 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:03.280 thirty thousand feet drop. That why the seventeen incinerator was 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:06.960 invented for this specific instance. And yeah, we've been let 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.679 down again. Anyway, what are we talking about today, Maya? 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.360 We're talking about the balloon a little bit, and then 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.320 we're going to talk about something more interesting, which is 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.640 the sort of history of US China relations and how 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.400 it's not what everyone thinks it is. I've been led 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.200 to believe by the media that there is nothing more 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:24.360 interesting than the balloon, and that we should be focusing 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.560 all our coverage on the balloon. That's true. There have 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.520 been other balloons. There are now a fifth balloon, has 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:36.200 it the towers? Okay? So yeah, let's let's go yeah. 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:37.720 So okay, So I want to start off by like, 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:40.760 I want to talk a little bit about the balloon, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.840 which is that. Okay, so we have the American Army's claim, 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:46.679 but this is a surveillance balloon. There's a there's a 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.280 chance it just was a random balloon. Like, I don't know. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.560 I don't want to completely discount the fact that it 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.079 was a balloon. I do want to talk a little 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.160 bit about sort of balloon surveillance stuff though, because I've 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:58.760 seen a lot of people both on the left and 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:00.560 also on the right, who are just like, why would 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.400 anyone ever have a spy balloon? It's like, okay, so 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:05.920 let's talk a little bit. In order to do this, 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:07.920 we need to talk a little bit about surveillance satellites, 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.079 which I come from a family of astronomers, and one 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.000 of the sort of dark secrets of astronomy is that 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:14.880 the stuff you point up also could be pointed back 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.440 down again and yeah, yeah, so And you know, one 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.000 of the other things about this is that a lot 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.120 of the companies that make telescopes, to make the lenses 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.480 for that, are companies that work heavily with the NRO, 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.160 which is the National Reconnaissance Office, which is a a 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.680 gen du winely terrifying organization with an unfathomable black budget 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.359 to dedicated to just like spying on people from aircrafts 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.800 now from space and more people, more people should be 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:37.960 like we have a lot of Like people are scared 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.120 of the NSA, people are scared of the CIA, but 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.880 more people should be scared of the NRO, because Jesus Christ, 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.920 that stuff is who but on the only head. Okay, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:48.960 so the NRROW has a bunch of satellites, right, But 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.400 the thing about satellites that they move. Okay, you can't 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.320 prove that. I will, I will prove I will I will, 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.200 I will, I will do a war thunder, I will 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:03.640 post classic live underneath of dome. And satellites are stationary. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.840 The dome rotates in a clockwise direction around them, and 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:15.720 that's responsible for the illusion of motion in the heavens. Sure, yes, 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:24.039 there's no competing response today. So okay, all right, So 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.920 so satellite satellites move, they move in stable and pdictable 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:28.920 orbits and this means a few things, right. One of 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.640 the things that it means is that a satellite is 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.520 only over the area you want it to cover for 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:35.919 a limited amount of time because it's you know, satellites 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.960 moving around the Earth, right, um. And this means that 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.359 you know, you can you can calculate their orbits, and 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.400 you can calculate when they're going to be in range 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.840 of whatever they want to look at, and you know, 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:47.679 and this means you can do things like, for example, 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:49.400 figuring out where the satellite is going to be in 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.560 hiding whatever you're working out when they pass this. This 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.160 is how the CIA, this is how the CIA completely 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.880 missed India's nuclear weapons program, is that they knew when 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:58.680 that they've been dowhen the flies, the spy satellites you're 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.520 flying over, they just hid all the way puts equipment 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.280 and the CIA never figured out they were building dukes 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.800 base well actually not based its bad, but but yeah, yeah, 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:11.360 it was very funny. Yeah yeah, but they do did 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.039 they just paint it like a hot dog or something 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.279 and just be like guy, they lit just like put 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.800 tarps over it. The satellite came around, and then they 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.040 build things under ground. It's very funny. I'm passionating the 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.880 world's biggest hot dog. I dare in case someone else does. Yeah, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.360 I think Jamie Loftus actually might. If you beat that, 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:29.920 you don't have to do all to the death. Jamie 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.920 secret something we're not supposed to talk about on the podcast. Well, look, 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.000 it's it's it's it's like the Israeli secret arsenal. It's 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.320 it's it's an open secret and not a closed secret. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.120 So okay. You can solve this problem of of sort 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.440 of telescope go move um either by having just a 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.520 bunch of satellites going constantly or by having a geosynchronous satellite, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.240 which is which is in an orbit where it's like 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:53.960 basically over the same spot of the Earth at one time. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.760 The problem is that both of these are like unfathomably expensive, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.960 and doesn't mean that governments don't do that, Like the 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.640 US is a multi spy satellites like satellites, but you know, 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.640 it's really really expensive, and there's you know, there's a 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:12.960 few other reasons why you would use a balloon um. 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:14.320 Which are you know some of the reasons the US 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.280 uses that use them in Afghanistan. One is that you 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.160 have really limited space on a satellite, which means that 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:21.920 there's there you know, you can only fit certain kinds 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:26.920 of equipment onto each satellite. There's another issue, which is that, Okay, um, 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.159 if you're putting spy stuff on a satellite that has 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:34.320 to work in space, and it turns out that space sucks, 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.760 and yeah, I mean wanting to kill you. I didn't 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:40.800 like it. It's a it's a mark of how like 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.440 bad people are at strategic thinking that they would ever 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.440 ask why would you put spy stuff on a balloon? Especially? Yeah, 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.280 Like it's a little weirder to float it over the 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.000 US if that's what happened. But like, if if you 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.120 are the US or China or Russia engaging in most 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.440 of the conflicts those countries engage in where they're not 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:02.600 dealing with state level actors, provides perfect surveillance, very cheaply, 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.360 it doesn't require refueling. Like, it's an incredibly reasonable platform 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.000 to spy on people with. Yeah, And I think there's 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:10.920 another thing which I think has been less talked about, 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.720 which is that, Okay, there's an equipment gap basically between 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.320 when you design a camera for a satellite and when 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.640 the satellite goes up. And this means that whatever you 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:21.800 whatever kind of cameras and technology you're putting in a 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.080 satellite are going to be by definition a few years 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:26.000 out of date, because that's just how long it takes 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:27.560 a design the equipment and putting it and put it 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.360 into the air. But you know, for a balloon, you 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.119 could you can, you could use stuff that's more modern 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.080 than way you would have on a spy satellite now, 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.560 you know. And also like you can you can also 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.680 just put other stuff on the balloon that's such as 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.320 cameras like you can do cig and stuff you can use. 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.640 So okay, well, the moral of this story is that, like, 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.880 the spy balloon is not like a completely implausible thing. 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.920 If if you like put a gun to my head 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.280 and said meo, what happened here, my guests would be 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.640 was like the spy balloon went off course or some 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.720 shit and this lost control of it. Now, yeah, it 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:04.320 probably was not meant for the continentally United States, because 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:09.120 that's a weird move. But AGA's happening. So Hi, this 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.760 is Mia in post. So but back when we recorded 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.480 this episode in the heady days of early February, there 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.520 had been but two balloons. There have now been so 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.880 so many more balloons. Oh my god, there the US 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.360 just has balloon mania. We now know a little bit 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.440 more about the sort of suspected Chinese balloon. It does 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.040 that that balloon seems to be an actual balloon at 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.880 the very least. The US government claims that they've recovered 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:38.880 an enormous amounts of sort of technical and observational equipment 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.160 from it. They said it was, well, what was the 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.360 exact line, the size of three school buses, A bunch 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.280 of signals intelligence stuff, which is something we didn't mention 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.680 an enormous amount. But yeah, like that, that's an Everything 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.199 you can use a balloon for is intercepting phone communications 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.720 or radio communications, etcetera, etcetera. Okay, so like it seems 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.360 like they're like they're the first balloon may have been 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.840 an actual balloo. Every subsequent balloon, however, we have learned 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:07.599 more so at least one, and my assumption is this 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.199 is every single subsequent balloon after the first balloon. We 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.080 have confirmation that so one of the balloons is shot 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:15.679 down over Canada by a F twenty two and this 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.640 seems to be a Pico balloon from the Northern Illinois 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.120 Bottlecap Balloon Brigade. These are just like these are these 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.840 just like tiny balloons that people send out so they 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:27.839 can serve and navigate the globecause these people are just 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.640 like balloon hobbyists. They just they just like balloons, and 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.240 you know, it's just honestly really sad, like these are 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.240 just people who like they just like putting balloons up 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.959 and watching them go around the world. And they were 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.280 met with the entire aerial light of the world's greatest superpower, 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.280 which spent literally more money than I have ever seen 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.920 in my entire life to annihilate literally like about one 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.400 hundred or two hundred dollars worth of essentially foil and 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.319 some GPS equipment. These people apparently tried to contact the 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.240 US government and tell them what was going on. US 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:05.920 government was like, so, yeah, congratulations to the US government 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.840 which has uh, it has one, it has one an 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:14.120 important geostrategic victory over the Northern Illinois Bottlecap Balloon Brigade. Uh. 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.280 This is this has been this has been breaking news 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.760 from MIA in in the in the balloon war. Yeah, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:23.760 enjoy the rest of the episode. But you know, I 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.080 wanted to use this to talk about something more interesting, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.160 which is again like the sort of arc of US 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.440 China relations and what actually drives it, because I think 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.199 people have a really really not very good understanding of 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.400 how it works and why. Okay, I think it's reasonable 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:39.760 to ask you why why are you talking about the 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.680 arc of US China relations? Aren't US China relations always bad? 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:45.280 And the answer is no, In fact, US shaded relations 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.440 to sometimes actually quite good. US China relations are driven 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.000 by these two sort of interlocking forces. Right on the 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.760 one hand, you have the internal domestic and also kind 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.839 of global balance of class forces inside a country, and 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:58.640 that plays a huge role on a lot of the 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.480 things that are going to happen in Duwish China relationship. 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.400 And the other thing that happens is what you, I 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.520 guess would call geopolitics. And we're going to kind of 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.640 start with the geopolitics sign and then move back and 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.319 forth between that and the sort of class angle on it, 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.240 so you can get get get a kind of understanding 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.520 of how how this stuff actually works and how to 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.199 think about it in ways that are just sort of 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:25.360 incredibly simplistic and useless. So all right, I'm not gonna 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:26.760 go all the way back to like the eighteen hundreds 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.000 or whatever, because there are US China relations. We actually 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.280 invaded China at one point in like the eighteen hundreds 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.640 for some fucking reason, and we actually we did it 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.559 again the nexteen hundred and two. Yeah, but okay, So, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.240 but in terms of dealing with modern China, dealing with 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.160 USU and modern US China relations is about the US's 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.360 relationship with the CCP, and weirdly dream world War two 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.640 it was the relations were actually really good, um, you know, 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.240 because obviously China, China is the US's ally and World 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.400 War two I were there were also allies with China's 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.960 nationalist part, the KMT. But you know what's interesting about 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.040 this is that there's a faction of the US army 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.760 that is anti KMT and pro CCP. And they're not 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.760 pro CCP because they're communists. They're pro CCP because a 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.880 they're kind of racist and they really don't like the 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.280 KMT kind of out of racism. And the second thing 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.160 that that's going on is that the KMT, as we've 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.720 talked about elsewhere, it's just like incredibly corrupt Esquad party, 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.120 and that means that you know, some of the people 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:29.439 who have to like the people who have to work 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:30.679 with them on the ground to World War two or 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.680 like these are literally the worst people who have ever lived. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.520 Why on earth are we doing this? That means that 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.000 when when the civil war starts, right like the US 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.800 takes the nationalist side, but like nowhere near as strongly 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.679 as they could have. And this creates this sort of 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:46.800 like this myth around like the loss of China that 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.959 becomes this massive thing in the US. Is because this 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:51.640 is one of the things that triggers someth McCarthys and 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.480 etceterac Is like everyone becomes convinced it was like, oh 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.199 my god, like Truman, like like they lost China, Like 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.199 we could have kept China for the communists, but like 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.600 they lost it, and it's wow, okay. But this has 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.640 another massive impact, which is that it creates this thing 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.360 called the China Lobby. And the China lobby is this 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.920 is this sort of bank of these like incredibly psychopathic 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.160 right wing like anti communist goools and some also people 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.600 who had some also people who were like had been 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.600 rich in China and then about owned by this CCP, 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:26.760 and they start pushing incredibly aggressively for like regime change 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:28.640 in China for just the US and try to not 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.319 have a diplomatic relations, and this this star starts to 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.640 sort of like tank relations between the US and China. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.640 And then obviously like so we we fought. We fought 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.319 a war with China and Korea, a thing that I 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.240 feel like doesn't get talked about as much as you 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.360 would think it would. Yeah, the Korean War is the 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.880 memory hold war in yeah, and in the UK. It's 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:51.439 why I was in America. But it's the war that 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.199 no one Yeah, I mean the Forgotten War is literally 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.240 like it's it's most common nickname. There's a pretty good 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.640 book by that title too. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.559 like like that were like there are there are US 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.400 and Chinese troops like shooting the shit out of each other, 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.680 like oh yeah, well yeah, like a cross the entire peninsula, 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.520 Like there are there are Chinese troops doing bayonet chargers 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.719 through the road artillery like the American lines. My my, 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.559 the last before I bought my place, my last landlord 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.240 was a Chinese citizen um living in the US on 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.400 a green card, and during a pandemic conversation over some wine. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.280 We kind of figured out that both of our grandfathers 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.040 wound up at the same battles and made very in 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.760 shooting each other. Yeah, so that's the melting pot, buddy. 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.480 You she became a landlord. M hmm, Well, I mean, 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:43.880 I mean that's a dream there, you like, there there 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:45.800 is a reasonable argument that they're in back again. A 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.000 landlord story is the entire course of the of the 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.160 sort of like Chinese Chinese politics in the twentieth century 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.760 any respect to the United States. Yeah, well, and also 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.560 trying to right because landlords are back now. It sucks. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.920 Yeah yeah, land yes, and no Chinese people have become landloads. 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.080 But yeah, many a subject to landloads. Shit. Yeah, you know. Okay, 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.760 So like obviously it's really interesting too because when people, 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.640 like when people write about US China relations, they normally 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.000 like the thing that the thing they picked from this 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.280 period tends to be like the Tawanies straight crisis, and 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.520 it's like, okay, yeah there was this, there were this 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:20.520 race crisis. But again, like the US and China were 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.040 like shooting at each other like before this, like why 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:24.560 why is this that? Why is this the thing that 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.400 you pick for the downcour of US China relations like 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.920 we were at war. Okay, but baffling stuff, right, But 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.120 you know, and relations are not good to like the 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:39.360 sixties either, like sort sort of based on very very 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.080 similar sort of lines that you've seen in the fifties. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.040 You've like, this is a period where people sort of 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:49.200 take communism anti communism seriously. That stops being true very quickly. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.320 On the other hands, these these sort of geopolitics things 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.440 have real material consequences, right. You can look at this 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.600 in the American side, where, for example, the industrial build 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.120 up of the Japanese and Korean economy and also the 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.000 industrial build up like the industrial building of California, right, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.960 has to do with these sort of trade linkuages that 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:08.760 are that are being set up in order for US 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.440 to run the war in Korea and run the war 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.920 in Vietnam. And China has its own sort of version 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.440 of this, where which which starts getting more and more 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.600 apparent by it starts around the mid sixties, they have 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.960 this thing called the Third Front, which is okay, so, 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.040 having having now been through like I don't know how literally, 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:27.880 I don't even know how many wars since the start 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.560 of this century, the CCP goes, Okay, we need to 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.680 shift art. We need to shift our production away from 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.840 sort of the coast and into the middle of the 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:36.480 country so that they can't be attacked by the Soviets 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.480 and they can't be attacked by the Americans. And this, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.200 this has, this has a really major effect in terms 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.800 of what sort of Chinese industriization looks like. Over the 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.400 course of the mid twentieth centuries. You get, you get 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.040 this industrial belt that's built up and that is going 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:55.480 to be destroyed later on. And it's destroyed in part 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.480 because of of what starts happening in the seventies, which 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.200 is the sort of warm up between the US and 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.440 China based on sort of Nick Nixon and Kissingers attempts 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.320 to sort of peel the Chinese away from the Soviet Union. 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:09.480 And you know, like Robert, you've you've talked about this 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.520 ambassadors before, um, but you know, part of part of 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:18.000 what's going on here is that China like basically gets 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.159 into a war with the Soviet Union in Nitteen sixty nine. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.680 It's not called that, it's technically just called the border dispute, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.560 but like like there are troops like shooting at each other, 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.000 like all across the border, people are beating each other 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.600 the death with sticks like people are people are shooting 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.200 borders at each other. It's it's it's it's a real war, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.600 and it's in a grand British tradition of course, calling 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.680 like massive conflicts an emergency or the troubles. Yeah. Yeah, 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.600 it's like okay, you know, but but this, but this, 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.800 this this really sort of this this really sort of 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.200 drives Chinese sort of international like relations to the point 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.879 where they're like, okay, so I know we're supposed to 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.280 be communists, but also like the other communist power next 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.840 door might like marching army across the board at any point. 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.080 So you know, you get you you get this sort 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.120 of trying to triangle diplomacy of of of becausin you're 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.879 trying to sort of bring China into the or at 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.880 least away from the Soviet spear and then closer into 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.439 the US beer And you know this starts to work, right, 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:17.720 and you can ask, you know, there's other there's other 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.640 things going on here, right, It's China's not just playing 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:25.119 pure geopolitics. Um there there there, there's there's another factor involved, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.159 which is that part of the sort of conditions for 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.440 US and Chinese sort of like as you called bilatter 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:36.119 relations or what what whatever sort of geopolitical can't bullshit 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.840 you want to say for like getting along closer is 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:42.840 the US starts sending these technology transfers over to China, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.439 like I mean literally like like like taking like sometimes 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.680 like taking factories basically and like taking them apart and 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.399 then putting them in boxes and shipping them over to China. 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.399 And you know, okay, and this is this is this 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.760 is a huge deal for the CCP because like the 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.480 Chinese econ mean, this period has been really bad. And 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:04.520 part of this is just you know, this is what 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.960 happens when you bow. But a secondary part of this 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:14.560 is that China's has has had a real basically it's 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.879 it's China's been dealing with this sort of economic crisis 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.720 since like like literally since since they came out of 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.040 World War Two, which is that okay, so, but most 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.240 of China's industrial capacity was completely destroyed you in the 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.800 War of the Parchment that weren't were like there was 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:31.240 this belt in Macharia that had stuff and that the 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.800 Soviets literally loaded loaded the factories on trains and shipped 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.160 them back and shipped them back east or back west. 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.280 So bye bye bye. By the by the time, by 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.000 the time that the CCP takes over, like China has 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.200 less industrial capacity than like Russia dated at the beginning 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.879 in nineteen seventeen, Jesus. So situations really bleak, right, And 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.720 the other the other thing that's bleak about it is that, Okay, 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:52.840 so in order to build an industrial base, right, we've 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:54.040 talked about this a bit on the show. In order 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.720 to build industrial base, you need food. But in order 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.320 to get like increase your agriculture productivity, you need like 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.000 medical goods. But you can't get those mechanical goods unless 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.000 you can increase your jectal capacities. You have this bottleneck. 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.720 And this winds up being one of the solutions to 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.720 the bottleneck is getting technology transfers from the US. And 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:15.960 you know, the sort of product of this is that 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.399 now all of our products and services which we are 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.240 about to talk about, which you should buy, are made 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.840 in China. So yeah, go go, go, buy, go buy 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.359 those things that are the product of all of this. 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.840 That's no problem. Yeah, don't don't question it, just purchase it. 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.440 Go to Ali Baba, and just finally, their express. Get 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.160 Alie Express and just wire them seven hundred dollars. Within 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.080 I'm going to say two weeks to seventeen months, you'll 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:46.040 get a package of something yet by a drac. Honestly, 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.960 if you order something from Ali Express, there's no real 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.480 way to know what you will get. That's the beauty 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:53.880 of Ali Express. Look you you. On the other hand, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:55.800 there there there is there is a non zero chance 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.159 you get a collection of really really sick Chinese shirts 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.360 that just have absolutely random on him. It's great Chinese shirts, 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.080 or like knockoff versions of military grade optics that work 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:11.880 well enough for the Taliban to use. Yeah, they liberating 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.359 people of the world over at the expressed optics. All right, 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.760 and we're back. So okay. The Chinese swing into sort 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:20.840 of like alignment with the US. They they start doing 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:22.359 things that are like even a lot of the US's 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.440 right wing allies won't do. Like, for example, China, China 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.480 is one of the first countries to like to diplomatically 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.760 recognize Pinochet Chile, and they like send him a shit 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:33.879 ton of money. Those loans they send they send him 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:35.960 with direct cash transfers and like this is a point 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.040 where even like France and like the UK are like, 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:41.800 oh we woo, that's that's a like we're we're not 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:43.920 We're not We're not gonna have We're not gonna acknowledge 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.400 his military kindship. And China is like yeah, this rules. 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:51.160 Hell yeah, Pinochet, And you know, they do other stuff 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.600 that's very sort of pro us, right. They invade Vietnam 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:57.960 in nineteen seventy nine in the war that you know, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.280 the only war that's more forgot, and then the Korean War. Yeah, 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.560 that's it's the side of wit of ease war. Um. Yeah, 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:06.879 that was some pretty good Twitter threats. That taught me 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.520 a lot about China's non aggression tour to other countries 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.680 last week. Yeah, it's it's a good time. I I 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:14.440 can we we could all talk about like the Sino 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:16.840 Indian War in the middle of this where they just 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:21.960 invade India, which is great, but you know, okay, but 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.480 like what what what this sort of comes up to 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:28.399 you is in is like you you you get a 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.760 point where the US and China, by by by the 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:32.760 end of the seventies and going into the eighties, are 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.080 very much on the same side. Like for example, when 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.960 when Dangel Ping came to visit the US. He takes 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:41.159 he takes like an hour out of his schedule to 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.399 make a secret visit to the CIA so that he 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.639 can set up a joint like USCA Listening posted in 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.560 China to monitor the Soviets. We talk about this a 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.160 lot in the Kissinger episodes from last year, but folks 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.400 should generally be aware that like Chairman maw and Richard 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.560 Nixon legitimately got along, like enjoyed one another's company as 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:04.440 did and Chowchesscu like they were they were all good friends. Yeah, 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.400 which is something something one ruling class, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:12.280 there's almost a class analysis you could make the yeah, 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:14.320 but you know, okay, we we're gon're gonna do it. 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:16.000 We're gonna do a slightly different class analysis, which is 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:18.760 that like, okay, so US Shuna relations are very good 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:23.199 literally like basically until Tianneman and then everything gets kind 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:28.520 of messed up because Chianamenianemans. It's a very has a 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.320 set of like very weird and contradictory effects, right, you know, 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.320 we we talked about some of this in our Chaman episodes. 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.160 But it does two things. Right. On the one hand, 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:41.920 like in the US, people are horrified, right the you know, 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:44.600 the the entire media classes like watches, this happened the 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:48.159 outside their windows. There's just like it is an incredible uproar. 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.080 It becomes one of the sort of like central like 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:53.800 I don't know, like I sort of like it becomes 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.040 it becomes a thing. It's like incredibly central to just 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:57.520 like the memory of what it is to be an 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.919 Asian American is to sort of like remember uote unquote Tianneman. 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.800 But on the other hand, you know, so okay, what 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:06.560 do you would expect from there, is like the US 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.680 and China break off diplomatic relations, and like the Cold 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:11.240 War two starts again immediately with the US and China, 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:13.560 and it doesn't happen like that. And it doesn't happen 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.280 like that because the second thing that that that Tianaman 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.560 does is it finally crushes the Chinese working class. And 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.159 you know, once once, once, the once, the old, once, 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.480 the last deald Chinese working class is just gone, right, 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:30.680 and all that's left is an incredibly disorganized and incredibly 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.080 desperate sort of market working class. Suddenly, hey, look, we 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:37.840 have a very highly educated, very poor population that you 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:39.600 can that you can just you know, just ship labor too. 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:41.760 And this is what this is what actually happens in 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:43.680 sort of terms sort of the US and Chinese relationship 0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:46.280 over the nineties, which is that you know, you you 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:49.040 have these this double D industrialization going on. You have 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.960 a D industrialization in the US where you know, the 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:54.440 last of the old russbelt falls apart, the sort of 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:56.800 like mining industrial boom that had happened that the Reagan 0:24:56.960 --> 0:24:59.359 just implodes. And you know, some of this is some 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:01.320 of this is these jualization something. This is these jobs 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:04.800 go to like the suburbs and shit, or like places 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:10.320 like Decalb that are just incredibly accursed. But real call 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.120 out there, man, I look, I'm sorry to anyone who 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:18.280 lives in Decalb. I wish you best luck fleeing that 0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:22.000 guy's at Decalb tourist board sponsorship we've been looking for. Yeah, 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:25.280 but you know, but but simultaneously there's there there's another 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:27.840 wave of the industrial relation happening in China too, which 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:29.560 is that that old third wave industrial belt that I 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.520 was talking about, Right, those people had worked in like 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:35.080 basically the equivalent of like the Chinese equivalent of sort 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:37.480 of like good union jobs. Right, They're they're they're working. 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:39.520 They're working for state for state owned enterprises, so they 0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:42.719 have housing, they have healthcare, they have pensions, and all 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:44.680 of that is just destroyed. Like all these people lose 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:47.639 their pensions, they lose everything. There are like millions of 0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:51.600 people who are pushed out of their jobs. And you 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:53.400 know when when both both of both of these things 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:55.400 happen at the same time, and a lot of companies 0:25:55.800 --> 0:25:57.960 who are watching the sort of vast Asian companies like 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:01.080 like economies collapse, We're watching the v B is sorry, 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:03.679 who are watching the South Korean economy collapse, who are 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:06.800 watching the Japanese economy collapse, suddenly start looking at China 0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:09.639 and throughout the course of the nineties sort of more 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:12.200 and more American capital. I mean there's already's been capital 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:13.959 from East Asia sort of flowing in the China, more 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.720 and more American capital starts flowing in. And what you 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:22.040 get here is you get this battle between geopolitics and economics, 0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:24.240 right that the sort of geopolitics side and the sort 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:26.240 of like you know this this this is side that 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:27.959 like the media is on and the side is at 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:30.880 this sort of like the sort of intellectual etc. Et cetera, 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:33.440 like anti China classes on is. You know, they don't 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:35.720 they don't want to let China into the World Trade Organization. 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:39.760 But it doesn't work, right, those guys just get destroyed China. 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.760 China get submitted into the World Trade Organization. Both Bill 0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:46.199 Clinton and George W. Bush support China entering the WTO, 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:48.760 and they do it because they can they can see 0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:51.320 when I'm partially a little bit of it is because 0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:53.440 they've they've for some like they've they've they've been drinking 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:56.240 the kool aid and they believe that like, if you 0:26:56.320 --> 0:27:02.159 have capitalism, then democracy will follow, which I and lyrical 0:27:02.240 --> 0:27:07.520 data suggesting yeah, okay, sure sure, indio cons like whatever. 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:09.919 But you know, but it's also it's also because these 0:27:10.000 --> 0:27:12.199 these these these people have financial backers, and their financial 0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:14.680 backers are telling them like, hey, look, we can you know, 0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:17.159 if if if if if like if all of the 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:19.240 sort of weird sanction regime shit has worked out, and 0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:21.600 if China's fully integrated into the capital system, like we 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:23.520 can make a lot of money. And they do that 0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:25.080 that this is what the two thousands is, right, like 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:28.520 Walmarts and like Walgreens and shit like directly integrate all 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:30.439 of their supply lines into Chinese supply lines. They make 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:31.960 deals with the Chinese government in order to do this, 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:35.080 and suddenly by you know, by in two thousand and one, 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:37.440 China is i think, like the fourth exporter of goods 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:39.359 in the world. By two thousand and nine they are 0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:41.119 number one by like an order of what on order 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:44.040 in magnitude. But they're like very very much the dominant 0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:48.679 export like world's dominant export economy. And this is a problem, 0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:50.879 right because on the one hands, you know, if if 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:54.520 like American Chinese relations get there, they're actually really good 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:56.560 around nine to eleven, they're actually really good, right, Like 0:27:56.680 --> 0:27:59.440 the the US like there were there there were guys 0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:03.160 from shing who, like China sends the Guantanamo. It's like here, 0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:05.119 take these people in US, torchis them for China, Like 0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:08.639 you know, yeah, like relations are like relations are good, right, 0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:10.080 It's like, well, okay, hey, we both have like this 0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:12.560 like quote Muslim extremist threat that we're like dealing with, 0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:14.880 you know, and they try to get on the war 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:18.440 on terror. But eventually relations kind of degrade, like you 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.200 have the whole Olympics thing. You have there's like in 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:24.040 like the two thousand tens, there's this whole fight over 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:27.639 these islands that the Philippines claim. But you know, but 0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:29.879 but the problem with this is that, like, okay, so 0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:33.600 you get, on the one hand, a faction of the 0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:36.680 American right that is really and also and also like 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:39.560 there's actually the American right that's really really hard line 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:43.560 anti Chinese based on sort of racism. There's American liberalism, 0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:45.560 which you know, has this thing about like the rules 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:48.920 based international order that like China is violating. They're also racist. 0:28:49.160 --> 0:28:51.479 And then there's like progressives like Elizabeth Warred who are 0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:56.720 also racist and um, and also but you know who's 0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:58.360 thing is like, oh, well, workers rights in China are 0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:00.200 really bad, so we need to do like competition with them. 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:04.479 It's like, okay, that's how you fix it with more capitalism. Yeah, right, 0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:06.800 And but they have a political issue, which is that 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.520 there's another massive section of American capital that has enormous 0:29:10.560 --> 0:29:12.640 investments moth sort of financially and in terms of where 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:14.840 their factories are, where the logistics are, where the supply 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:18.400 lines are that make them incredibly supportive of sort of 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:20.840 close to US China relations, or at the very least 0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:23.400 makes them oppose any kind of sort of like real 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:26.280 like anything that goes beyond kind of geopolitical posturing that 0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:29.160 makes it harder to do business for them. And this 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:31.280 is something I think people have a tendency to forget 0:29:31.320 --> 0:29:33.160 when they when they try to think about US China 0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:35.880 relationship terms of economics, is that like, Okay, so there, 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:38.240 the US has a military industrial complex, but that's not 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:40.640 the that's not the entire US economy. Like, there are 0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.120 other people in the US who have lots of money. 0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:46.160 There was an entire financial sector, there was an entire 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:48.440 tech sector, and those people also have a shit ton 0:29:48.480 --> 0:29:52.000 of money. And even even sort of tech companies, right 0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:53.720 who who have a foot in sort of the American 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:56.520 contracting business, also often have a bunch of their you know, 0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:58.520 a bunch of the places where the technology is built 0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:01.280 is in China, right, So you know, even even people 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:03.720 who could theoretically be brought into a sort of like 0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:08.000 like an umbiltering industrial complex political coalition against China, like 0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:11.640 have reasons not to do it. And you know, and 0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:15.160 this this works down the board. Right if you look 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.920 at when Trump did the trade war, he you know, 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:20.360 initially there was a lot of popular support among sort 0:30:20.360 --> 0:30:23.080 of like American like mid sized businesses, who are like, oh, 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:25.040 we can bring industrial capacity back to the US. And 0:30:25.120 --> 0:30:27.760 then all of them discovered that they had to pay, 0:30:27.880 --> 0:30:29.800 like all of discovered that, like they had to pay 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:31.920 more for their Chinese goods, and we're like, wait, hold on, 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:35.520 we fucked up. We've made a mistake. He's actually screwed us. 0:30:36.080 --> 0:30:39.360 And like, you know, there's there's another kind of guy, 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:42.040 right who there's a lot of people who you expect 0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:44.360 to be really antic CCP who aren't, right, and Elon 0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:47.600 Musk is the best example of this. Like she's the guy. 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:50.960 I think we'd expect Elon Musk to fully support anyone 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:53.800 who can fully stamp on the face of their working class, 0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:57.200 because that's true. But he's the kind of person, true 0:30:57.200 --> 0:30:59.400 you would expect, by pure racism to be like a 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:02.920 really hard Lana to CCP guy, and he's not, because 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:06.240 like he has, there's a class consciousness I think which 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:10.240 overapes even apartepe boys racism well and and and like 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:12.880 he has, there's the Tesla has this like oh god, 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:15.280 it's called the Giga factory, which is a name that 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:19.240 makes me want to die. Yeah, I mean, but the 0:31:19.320 --> 0:31:21.520 Giga factories in Shanghai, right, And like he ha. He 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.440 has even even dream when like the media was like 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:27.600 like pretending to care about the weaker genocide, like he 0:31:27.800 --> 0:31:31.440 opened a showroom and shing John like dream that period. 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:34.840 So you know, and there's also people like Michael Bloomberg 0:31:34.920 --> 0:31:36.600 who are for very like you know, if you if 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:38.520 you if if you read Michael Bloomberg talking about China, 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:40.320 like in the media, he also talking about like how 0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:42.280 grave leader Hijinping is and it's you know, it's because 0:31:42.280 --> 0:31:46.360 the people have financial interests there and you know, and 0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:48.960 and this this means that like you know, even even 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:51.959 the sort of media coverage of this balloon bullshit, right, 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:54.600 and like China has been like threatening revenge or whatever 0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:56.680 for the shooting down to the balloon, But like this 0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:58.480 isn't going to turn into anything, right, It's it's the 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:00.880 same in the same way that like the last time 0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:03.640 I watched like straight stuff like didn't turn into anything. 0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:05.760 In the same way that like less seventeen goddamn with 0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:07.680 these scandals isn't going to go anywhere. And it's not 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:09.600 going to go anywhere because there's a there's an enormous 0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:13.640 like faction of American capital who relies on this stuff. 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:18.880 I think it serves like the manditary industrial complex and 0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:22.720 the military specifically to have China be like Schrodinger's Next 0:32:22.760 --> 0:32:26.040 World War, right, like that they're always a threat, but 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:28.560 like then they're not a threat, you know, like we 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:33.719 can justify so much spending and allocation of resources if 0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:37.400 we can always like wave this stick of potential conflict 0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:39.920 with China. Yeah, And I think there's something that's kind 0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:42.520 of like this important to understand is that like both 0:32:42.600 --> 0:32:45.360 the China Hawks and the China Doves are enemies of 0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:48.800 both the American and Chinese working classes. Like the China 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:50.719 Hawks thing is they want to like, you know, they 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:52.960 want to put the Chinese American working classes against each other. 0:32:53.040 --> 0:32:55.600 And it's like national philist fervor in order to get 0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:57.800 everyone to ignore the fact that like both the societies 0:32:57.840 --> 0:33:00.200 are collapsing around them. And by the way, didn't did 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:02.560 we we have no, I don't. I don't think this 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:04.440 has really made the news yet, but a Norfolk Southern 0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:08.120 fucking basically set off a chemical weapon in Iowa by 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:11.440 crashing one by crashing a train full of toxic chemicals. Yeah, 0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:16.400 and it's it's literally exploding like right now, as as 0:33:16.440 --> 0:33:19.640 we're fucking to recording this episode. It's on fire. Oh good. 0:33:19.880 --> 0:33:25.280 You know. I love how when you deregulate train industry 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:27.640 so that you can have just like one guy working 0:33:27.880 --> 0:33:31.640 a massive train hauling huge amounts of toxic chemicals, it 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:36.080 works out great. Yea happens. It's good efficiency. Rub Yeah. Look, 0:33:36.120 --> 0:33:38.520 a train crash like this would have normally taken dozens 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:41.520 of people to engineers. So we have we have improved 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:44.880 our efficiency markedly well. And also in terms of efficiency, 0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:47.320 Robert like, think of how bad it could have been 0:33:47.480 --> 0:33:51.080 if we hadn't crossed the rail strikes. Yeah, so yeah, 0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:55.120 it can been disaster, Yeah, terrible. There might not be 0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:58.000 there might not be a giant poisoned gas clad and 0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:00.360 what is it, Ohio, we can't have that. Yeah, it's 0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:03.880 in the East Palestine, Ohio. That's it's it's Palestine. They 0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:13.920 don't say, can have American solidarity with with Palestine. NICs. Oh, free, 0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:17.760 free Palestine. That's what I'm saying. That's been done already, 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:21.239 the first, the first Palestine. This will this will seem 0:34:21.320 --> 0:34:23.000 like it's in bad taste if a lot of people 0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:27.200 wiped up dying. But yeah, yeah, I also want to 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.480 mention here that I'm I'm gonna take this opportunity to 0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:31.640 mention that China is the second large Israel's second largest 0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:35.160 trading partner, and they do like yeah, and like they 0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:38.359 they do like security exchanges with each other where people 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:42.839 trade each other's military is it's great, it's great. Um yeah, 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:45.279 but but you know, you could rely if someone is 0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.960 oppressing working people they've done a security exchange with Israel. 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:53.400 That is it's golden lore of cup beating you in 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.239 the head with a stick. So it's never more than 0:34:56.280 --> 0:35:00.000 two degrees removed from the idea. Okay, there's one less 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:02.960 thing I want to talk about really briefly, which is okay, 0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:04.839 So one of the things you will see people talk 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.520 about who are like pundits or like people on the 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:12.120 news talked about this thing called decoupling. And the thing 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:14.319 you need to understand immediately is at the moment someone 0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:16.880 says the word decoupling, you can stop listening to everything 0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:18.840 they're about to say because they are lying to you, 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:23.920 like it is bullshit. So the what in theory the 0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.239 coupling is this thing where like supposedly, like the US 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:29.439 and Chinese economies are gonna decouple, right, and like all 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:31.520 the American firms in China are gonna pull out, and 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:33.160 they're gonna pull out their supply chains and they're gonna 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:34.640 relocate them to swhere else in the world, and the 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:37.280 US and Chinese economies suddenly will like not be coupled 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:38.680 to each other. It's like, no, they're not, Like this 0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:41.200 has never happened. It didn't. It didn't Like if it 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:43.640 was gonna happen, it would have happened in twos and seventeen, 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:45.560 and like, doesn't eighteen when Trump was Trump is doing 0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:47.399 the trade war, It didn't happen. Then. The only time 0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:50.279 it's ever happened, or the only time American companies ever 0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:52.440 sort of pulled out of China like on mass or 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:55.600 tried to was Ironic Green twen two thousand and eleven. 0:35:55.640 --> 0:35:56.880 But in two thousand and eleven they are trying to 0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.560 pull out because of the Wukan riots and this like 0:35:59.680 --> 0:36:02.440 mass of surge of strikes in China, and suddenly all 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:04.440 these companies were like, oh my god, China might not 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:05.800 be able to keep our I might be not be 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:07.600 able to suppress the working class hard enough. And then 0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:12.400 they yeah, they got horribly crushed. And well, the other 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.719 thing that happened was like company. They like companies tried 0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:17.480 to go elsewhere and they couldn't do it because no one, 0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:20.520 like no other countries had the combination of like a 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:24.240 like things like a stable electrical grid and like working roads, 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:27.239 like an actually highly educated population. So like they didn't 0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:29.400 have all of these things at once. So they all 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:32.920 came back and you know that that was that was 0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:35.000 close as ever came to happening. Everyone talks about this 0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:39.279 all the time, they're lying to you. Ignore them. Yeah, 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:42.800 it's it's it's not it's not going to happen. The 0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:45.799 US and Chinese economies are inextorably bound to each other, 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:48.560 and they're going to continue to be. Yeah, I mean, 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.959 we can't run like our economy to a logic extent 0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:54.279 on an economy, but I cast society runs on like 0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:57.520 providing treats to the working class just enough to prevent 0:36:57.600 --> 0:37:00.320 them from a battle angle from trying to radically change anything. 0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:03.600 And like we can't keep the constant stream of treats 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:07.160 running if if we decouple from China, right, like cheap 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:10.120 consumer goods. And also like the Chinese economy relies on 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:12.520 like as an expert economy, right like they've they've they've 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:14.480 they've been trying to turn to an internal consumption economy 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:18.240 for a decade. It's like not really working because hilariously, 0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:19.880 it's not working because they don't pay people enough to 0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.440 buy shit, and surely no one will ever do that 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:29.919 because yeah, yeah, so you know, but yeah it's great. 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:32.719 But you know, okay, I guess like the gist of 0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:35.040 what I wanted to say here is that, like like you, 0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:37.759 US China, relations are driven by forces that are more 0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:41.480 complicated than man on TV yell at balloon, and as 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:45.040 as powerful as man on TV yell at balloon, seems 0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:48.040 like in the moment, it's not actually the thing underlying 0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:50.960 what's going on here. And you need to be able 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:53.800 to look past man yell at balloon on TV in 0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:55.440 order to look at the sort of the broader, the 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:57.719 broader political and social forces that are that are going 0:37:57.800 --> 0:38:01.520 on here. And I think beyond that, what we need 0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:04.839 to do is recognize that there's a deep emptiness at 0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:08.200 the center of American society that should have, in this 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:11.439 case been filled by rich people in cessnas and their 0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:15.359 friends with high caliber precision rifles flying into the sky 0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:20.000 and a noble caxote quest to shoot that fucking balloon down, 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:28.160 just having Sancho Panza. C'm so disappointed in this country. Um, 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:31.239 I expected forty or fifty people to die, but that 0:38:31.320 --> 0:38:34.880 balloon to be taken down. There was a time when 0:38:34.920 --> 0:38:39.360 we had a country. Yeah, our founding fathers would have 0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:42.279 dropped that son of a bitch. Yeah, Joe Brandon has 0:38:42.360 --> 0:38:49.600 forced some wan into retirement. Yeah, and China has revealed anyway, 0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:53.000 I hope China sends another balloon. Yeah, what else are 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:55.320 we going to do? Yeah? I feel like a Mickey 0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:57.759 Mouse fucking Frozen balloon. You know, if they do like 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:01.160 the girl from Frozen, Sure, it would be cool. I'd 0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:03.279 like to see that. They should start pranking us with 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:07.680 character balloons. I'd fucking love that. Oh God. But but 0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:10.200 but then the US would start sending like Wi the 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:15.239 Pool balloon. Elizabeth would commission a Moana balloon to like 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:18.840 illegal for raising fun to happen. We would have like 0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:22.360 a balloon based Cold war where the United States starts 0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:26.480 shooting over balloons across China and the Russians start floating, 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.399 and it's just, yeah, we got to close the balloon gap. 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:38.960 Becomes the number one world power. Green Chili Jack boots 0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:45.279 stamping over the face of humanity strong minutary capacity. The 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:49.239 developers of Balloons Tower Defense get hauled before a Senate 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:53.520 committee for supposedly doing the future. God yeah, yeah, we 0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.880 got a nationalized MYLA production in order to monopolize it. 0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.480 All right, well the balloon pause. Yeah, I think that's 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:05.759 our episode. Yea, all right, until next time, everybody go 0:40:05.960 --> 0:40:09.560 forth in balloon. Yeah yeah. Float a balloon into the 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.799 airspace of a sovereign nation, just to take with them 0:40:12.800 --> 0:40:15.000 a little bit by Cameron Ali Express, put it on 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:19.080 a balloon, send it somewhere. But you can be be 0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:22.480 the CIA you want to see in the skies over 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:27.600 a sovereign country on the balloon, spree painted on the side. 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:33.480 Why not? Why not? What's the harm? What could possibly 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:37.839 go wrong? Now I'm going to listen. On an unrelated note, 0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:40.520 I'm finally going to listen to the SI song ninety 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:45.560 nine Red Balloons for the very first time. Changes my 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:51.120 opinion on what people should do with balloons. All right, 0:40:51.160 --> 0:41:10.439 everyone out, Hi, everyone's it could happen here and today 0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:12.920 it's near and myself and we're doing two interviews, which 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:15.319 is going to split over two different episodes. What we're 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:18.440 talking about is a case in Asha, North Carolina, where 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:20.560 a group of people doing mutual aid work with and 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.879 How's people have been charged with felony littering. Now we're 0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:26.640 going to get a little bit in the episode into 0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:31.279 what felony littering is. Unfortunately, I don't think any of 0:41:31.360 --> 0:41:33.320 us can explain why that exists as a charge for 0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:36.520 individuals and not for like you know, BP or SHELL 0:41:36.680 --> 0:41:39.400 or something, but such as a state. And so in 0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:41.919 the first episode, we're going to talk to Sarah. Sarah 0:41:42.000 --> 0:41:44.480 is one of the people facing these felony littering charges. 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.560 Sarah's also been banned from parks in Nashville and which 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:50.480 we're going to talk about. So Sarah will explain a 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:52.719 little bit of the process that led up to those 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:55.680 felony littering charges, what the situations like in Ashville for 0:41:55.840 --> 0:41:58.640 mutual Aid in front How's people. And then we're going 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:01.400 to talk to Maniba tomorrow. Maniba is one of the 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.640 lawyers at the ACOU, and she will explain a little 0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:07.360 bit of the legal background to the case and what 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:10.560 is sort of the way that the ACOU is helping 0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:14.719 these people oppose the ban. So we'll have two separate episodes, 0:42:14.800 --> 0:42:16.880 but we actually recorded them in a different order, so 0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:19.520 you're going to hear Sarah maybe referring to some stuff 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:22.080 Maniva said, and Maniba saying, Sarah will say some stuff. 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:23.960 Just know that we recorded Mania first because she had 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:26.880 a pressing time commitment, But we felt that Sarah's interview 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:29.640 gives you a better set up for listening to Manya's 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:33.279 interview tomorrow. Okay, hope you enjoy. We're going to start 0:42:33.320 --> 0:42:35.359 out talking to Sarah. He's one of the people who 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:44.240 is a quote unquote problem child in Asheville. We can Yeah, yeah, Sarah, 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:46.239 did like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:52.359 a problem child? Yeah, my name is Sarah Norris. Um. 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:54.879 It's so funny to be called something like a problem 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:56.960 child because I'm mostly like what I am as a 0:42:57.200 --> 0:43:00.760 mom of a little kid. I'm a social work student, 0:43:01.680 --> 0:43:07.759 like I am a career educator. Um. And I am 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:14.000 also yeah, one of sixteen local organizers who who has 0:43:14.040 --> 0:43:18.080 been facing for almost the last year felony littering charges 0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:23.960 in conjunction with December twenty one. December twenty twenty one 0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:29.839 art spaced protest. Yeah, I'm sorry, did this bizarre thing 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:33.200 has happened to you. Obviously, like on the face fit felines, 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:37.560 feloninees ring is a bizarre charge and the fact that 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:41.319 you are banned from parks is also very weird. Al Right, 0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:45.759 so let's maybe start off with like the situations before this, 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.160 what were you what we were doing in the parks 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:53.160 that led to you being deemed unsuitable for parks? Gosh, 0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:55.319 no way, you'd have to ask those who deemed who 0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:58.440 so deemed us. But I can talk about what I 0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:02.560 did in parks for for the year prior to being banned. Um, 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:05.920 And that's a I was part of a collective whom 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:11.920 who at the beginning of the pandemic um did like 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:16.239 six times a week meals, coffee, gear distribution in parks. Um. 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:22.000 By the time I came around and started participating in 0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:26.799 these in these food sharings, in these community gatherings, UM, 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:29.480 we were at like two or three times a week. 0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:33.960 And um, really what the way I spent my time 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:39.240 in parks was Saturdays and Sundays. I brought my daughter 0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:46.560 to Aston Park and we brought food with us, gear 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:49.960 with us, art supplies with us, or nothing with us. 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:52.879 We just showed up as us and we hung out 0:44:53.000 --> 0:45:01.160 and we distributed food, tents, packs, socks, toothbrow is really 0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:03.840 whatever we could get our hands on. UM. And towards 0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:07.960 the end of the year, we got a little bookshelf 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:11.600 and uh we were we were in charge of bringing 0:45:11.719 --> 0:45:14.759 books UM on this like little white plastic shelf and 0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:17.600 like talking to people about what they most wanted and 0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:19.360 see if they can match them up with whatever we 0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:23.120 randomly had. UM. It was really like sitting in the 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:28.560 sunshine and uh making sure the coffee thing was full UM, 0:45:29.200 --> 0:45:32.080 and mostly just talking to people, people who were run house, 0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:35.200 people who are housed, people who walked by and were like, 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.919 what's this? What's this picnic? Why is everybody like using 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:41.080 glitter glue? Like, oh, because there's a five year old 0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:44.480 and that's what we do. UM. So So that's what 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:49.520 mostly I did in Parks UM. And this is this 0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:54.040 this activity UM is in the context of a city 0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:59.920 who I think in twenty twenty one, UM, I think 0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:03.800 we know there were at least twenty one sweeps of 0:46:04.160 --> 0:46:11.920 homeless encampments, and a sweep like that name for some 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:16.040 of us, really connotes violence, but I think it's important 0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:20.560 to name how violent those are. A camp sweep means 0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:25.000 that folks have to leave the place where they've been living, 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:33.120 and very often their belongings are then considered to be trash, 0:46:33.760 --> 0:46:38.920 are bulldozed over, are are at a minimum lost to them. 0:46:39.840 --> 0:46:41.920 And this had happened over and over again in the 0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:46.279 city of Asheville. And yeah, there's a way that that 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:53.640 being in the park weekly felt like a thing that 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:56.480 happened in Ashville that was the opposite of feats that 0:46:56.719 --> 0:47:00.359 was like we're here, We're all here together, like here 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:09.279 we are. And so the protest itself around which in 0:47:09.360 --> 0:47:13.800 the context of which like these arrests have come, happened 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:19.960 in December, and it was an arts based protest and 0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:26.320 was really about was in favor of sanctuary camping in 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:30.520 the city of Ashville with sanitation services. That was the 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:35.000 point of it. And there were like kind of standard 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:39.319 protest related events on or sorry, arrests on Christmas night. 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:43.600 So that's what um Asheville Police did. And I think 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:47.600 it's important just to note that there were not unhoused 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:52.400 folks evicted that night on Christmas night, and no one 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:56.160 who was there was pretending to be unhoused and was arrested. 0:47:56.239 --> 0:48:00.600 That's a strange narrative that the City of full Police 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:03.960 department has set in open court. Um. But there were 0:48:04.040 --> 0:48:09.879 standard sort of like misdemeanor trespass resisting officer arrest that night, um, 0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:16.440 including of journalists. And then these felony littering cases came 0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:19.080 much later and in a kind of a different context. 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:23.759 But that's what that's what happened around Christmas. Okay, yeah, 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:28.000 it's already pretty weird, but I think, yeah, it gets waited. 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:33.000 Yeah yeah. So so particularly if you were not arrested, 0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:38.799 then I went home and Chrismasy stuff, and then at 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:41.680 some point, well a letter comes through your doors saying 0:48:41.719 --> 0:48:47.480 that you've been charged with like felony littering. So my 0:48:47.600 --> 0:48:54.560 own experience was that people organizers in the mutually collective 0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:56.880 that I'm part of, who had been showing up in 0:48:56.960 --> 0:49:00.800 the parks week after week distributing food and gear, started 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:08.200 getting arrested in mid January. For um, what we learned 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:11.320 was something you could be arrested for, which was felony 0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:15.680 littering and or aiding into and a betting felony littering, 0:49:16.840 --> 0:49:22.680 which like honestly exactly and and some people had one, 0:49:22.880 --> 0:49:26.080 some people had the other. Some people had both um 0:49:27.239 --> 0:49:31.080 people were and this is you know, our understanding is 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:34.320 that there's an unstated but generally followed policy by the 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:35.960 City of Ausha police de forma that they don't go 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:38.279 arrest people at work. But they went to people's work 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:42.480 with five cops and arrested them. Um. And this began 0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:51.200 in mid January and it continued um into into February. 0:49:51.719 --> 0:49:55.279 And be arrest I mean, honestly, the charges on the 0:49:55.840 --> 0:49:58.719 on the charge sheets would read like crazy statues that 0:49:58.800 --> 0:50:01.080 weren't even felony littering. It seems like they it really 0:50:01.120 --> 0:50:03.840 seemed like they were making it up as they went along, 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:05.920 just from the what I can say is, I mean, 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:07.920 I can't speculate about what they were doing, but there 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:13.440 was a strangeness to to even like the documentation that 0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:18.719 people who are arrested received. And then at the first 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:22.920 week of March of last year, the letter that I 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:28.000 received was similar to others that others other folks received 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:32.280 that day, which was in an envelope from the Asheville 0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:37.000 Police Department but was on Ashell Parks and arc stationary 0:50:38.239 --> 0:50:41.839 that told me that I had been banned from all 0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:45.920 city parks for a period of three years based on 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:49.680 the commission of a felony. And this was how I 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:53.600 found out that I even had any charges, was through 0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:58.960 this letter. And that's true for more than me, that's 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:03.440 true for a few defends. Um. So you know, not 0:51:03.600 --> 0:51:07.839 everybody who is now we understand to be banned from 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:12.960 parks has even received one of those letters, but I did, 0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:16.640 and a few of us did, And there was on 0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:18.480 there a sort of like if you would like to 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:21.160 appeal this, you have seven days, but the letter had 0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:23.440 been dated sort of five days before that, and we 0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:26.560 were like, wow, what are we even doing? And so 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:32.040 it's hard to it's hard to really communicate the like 0:51:32.440 --> 0:51:38.759 level of um both like sort of desperation and nonsense 0:51:38.920 --> 0:51:43.040 that was involved. The next day, but um, you know, 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:44.759 so a few of us found this out. We were 0:51:45.360 --> 0:51:50.400 we self surrendered, and because we were a lot of 0:51:50.480 --> 0:51:52.640 us around the courthouse in city hall, we were trying 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:54.920 to figure out what does this letters even mean? Like 0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:56.960 what does it mean to appeal this? What does it 0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:02.640 need to be banned? And so we trapesed around city hall, 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:05.520 city offices, the courthouse trying to get some sort of 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:09.120 answer like what here we've got these what does this mean? 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:11.480 And every place sent us somewhere where they were like, 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:13.279 we don't know what that is. Park Snart said, we 0:52:13.320 --> 0:52:15.680 don't know what that is. Go talk to the police. 0:52:15.800 --> 0:52:17.439 We said, we don't know what that is. Go talk 0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:20.840 to the magistrate. The criminal magistrate said, oh, this seems 0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:23.319 like a civil magistrate thing. So there's like a group 0:52:23.400 --> 0:52:27.320 of five mutual aid workers, you know, sort of just 0:52:27.520 --> 0:52:30.520 trapesing around trying to find out like can I do 0:52:30.640 --> 0:52:32.960 I get to go give out sandwiches intense in the 0:52:33.000 --> 0:52:35.400 park this week or not for three years? What is? 0:52:35.719 --> 0:52:37.759 And who can help me figure this out? And no 0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:41.959 one could? And what insod We never got an answer 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.120 that day. We just had city employees looking at us, 0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:48.320 often with a like wow, we don't We're sorry this 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:55.520 is happening to you. This seems really dumb expression. And eventually, 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:59.440 via email it became clear that they were like, we 0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:01.960 don't know what this process is, but we're going to 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:04.719 tell you soon, like thank you for your email, you know, 0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:07.239 saying you're going to appeal it. And over time we 0:53:07.400 --> 0:53:09.359 kind of got a little bit more like okay, we're 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:13.120 going to schedule the hearings. You will have a hearing eventually, 0:53:13.320 --> 0:53:16.080 like okay, we ask who will be these are like 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:18.880 for what what is a hearing? And they didn't know, 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:21.960 and then like, oh, okay, well there will be some 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:24.759 police officers there and you know, the city representative from 0:53:24.760 --> 0:53:26.960 the City Attorney's office, and you will have a chance 0:53:27.040 --> 0:53:30.680 to provide information. And you know, at this point, like, 0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:32.759 none of us, I think none of us had maybe 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:36.840 we'd had Adam appearances, but like, at this point, we're 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:41.799 dealing with felony littering charges that we don't understand. We're 0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:44.719 trying to figure out whether we can continue to provide 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.520 community care in the way we've been doing for years, 0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:53.719 and it seems like what the city is offering is 0:53:53.800 --> 0:53:57.920 a chance to come and maybe entrap ourselves. Like it 0:53:58.160 --> 0:54:01.440 doesn't make any sense to us. And so you know, 0:54:01.560 --> 0:54:04.160 those of us who had representation that we could speak 0:54:04.160 --> 0:54:09.600 to said, oh, we're coming, um, and have you heard 0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:14.200 the recordings? No, Well, if you would like them, I'm 0:54:14.200 --> 0:54:18.000 happy to send them. Mine is particularly I can't listen 0:54:18.040 --> 0:54:20.960 to mine. I have a huge nervous system response. Um, 0:54:21.200 --> 0:54:25.480 but mine is my my attorney asking over and over 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:30.120 again questions of the of the representative, the city attorney. 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:33.239 It's not it's John Maddox, who's um named in the 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:36.359 ACLU demand letter. Um, just saying over and over again, 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:39.400 like what at that point, we haven't even seen any discovery, 0:54:39.480 --> 0:54:42.279 Like we don't know what information this is even based on. 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:45.560 Like there are two cops in uniform pointing body cams 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:49.440 that assume I have to assume pointing body cams at me, um, 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:53.640 and in this in this hearing, and my lawyer is 0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:55.960 just asking over and over again, like upon what evidence 0:54:56.080 --> 0:54:58.040 is this space? And they just said over and over again, 0:54:58.560 --> 0:55:01.720 you're here to give information. We are not giving any information. 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:04.440 My lawyer asking what is the standard of review here? 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:07.439 Like how upon what is this base? And the parks 0:55:07.520 --> 0:55:12.880 director just saying like my decision and the and and 0:55:13.040 --> 0:55:15.200 then and then you know, what are the what is 0:55:15.239 --> 0:55:17.600 the remedy if this is if the appeal is denied, 0:55:17.600 --> 0:55:20.440 there's none, then the appeal is denied. Like and so 0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:24.040 it really was for me one of the moments where 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:29.759 I realized, like, oh, the city is is pretty hell 0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:34.120 bent on keeping a bunch of sweethearts who give out 0:55:34.160 --> 0:55:37.040 tens and sandwiches out of the park, and they're gonna 0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:40.920 like they're they're up to something here. Um. But I'm 0:55:40.960 --> 0:55:44.000 happy to share that recording. We have all of them reported. Yeah, 0:55:44.040 --> 0:55:51.239 I'd like that performance of like suitable legal ceremony well 0:55:51.320 --> 0:55:54.239 and again and and like pseudo in a dangerous and 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:58.719 extra judicial way, like I had no protections there, right, Yeah, 0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:04.439 you know, like yeah, there's something to respond to. Yeah, 0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:07.520 it's like these these are these, these are Star Chamber proceedings, 0:56:07.719 --> 0:56:10.879 like like the King of France is going to walk out. 0:56:13.320 --> 0:56:16.200 I just think it seems like such a British thing, 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:20.520 like yeah, you told me this in Britain and you've 0:56:20.520 --> 0:56:23.160 been like shooting the Queen's swans or something. I'd buy it. 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:26.680 You know. Here we are in the land of the free. 0:56:26.760 --> 0:56:29.960 You know that well, And I think the equivalent of 0:56:30.080 --> 0:56:35.080 shooting the Queen's swunts here is um hanging out with 0:56:35.440 --> 0:56:41.640 poor folks in a park um and in ways that 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:47.719 inconvenience or that apparently inconvenience the folks who go who 0:56:47.800 --> 0:56:51.160 pay money because you have to to play tennis at 0:56:51.200 --> 0:56:55.640 a public tennis court which is like right by Aston 0:56:55.719 --> 0:56:58.120 Park and and we can go in in a minute 0:56:58.120 --> 0:56:59.799 as much as you want to to what you saw 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:03.680 as far as like their attempts after their attempts to 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:08.960 pass to sneak through an ordinance. Um. Now we know 0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:13.120 quite clearly from public records directed at at food sharing 0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:15.880 in Austin Park. Yeah, it's really I keep thinking about 0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:19.480 that that Helder Kamara aligned I. When I give food 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:20.960 to the poor, they called me a saint. When I 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:22.720 asked why the air poor? They call me a communist. 0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:24.920 But it's like they really seem to have blown all 0:57:24.960 --> 0:57:27.200 the way, Like they didn't even get to part two. 0:57:27.360 --> 0:57:29.080 They were just like, wait, hold on, you're giving food 0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:31.480 to the poor, like it is time for a military response. 0:57:32.240 --> 0:57:38.760 It's just it's just horrible. Yeah, and being banned from 0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:42.200 parks for three years has a pretty big effect on 0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:45.840 my on my little life, you know, like there are 0:57:46.040 --> 0:57:54.680 constitutional um aspects to it that matter far beyond me 0:57:55.480 --> 0:58:01.120 and and which matter in many ways more too. But 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:04.600 the fact right now is that like I can't legally 0:58:04.880 --> 0:58:08.280 take my young child like to the park, buy her 0:58:08.320 --> 0:58:11.920 house without risking a rest for misdemeanor trust house. Um 0:58:12.880 --> 0:58:15.160 and and to my knowledge I won't be able to 0:58:15.560 --> 0:58:20.600 for three years. Um. And you know, they've succeeded in 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:23.680 getting us out of the park. They caused the harm 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:28.880 to they disrupted community care Um, they did it. They 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:33.439 didn't need the ordinance. Um, you know, it does happen. 0:58:33.520 --> 0:58:37.120 Food distribution happens, but it's in a place that really 0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:39.320 isn't the same. Like my daughter can't go there. She 0:58:39.400 --> 0:58:43.520 has some sensory stuff like being in the loud place 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:45.720 that it is right now, it really doesn't work. Um. 0:58:46.600 --> 0:58:53.400 So yeah, there's this. There's this very um like the 0:58:53.560 --> 0:58:58.240 scopes of all of this um from how Asheville as 0:58:58.280 --> 0:59:02.160 a city views and treats the folks who live on 0:59:02.240 --> 0:59:05.680 the street here who the city has most abandoned. There's 0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:08.880 the legal mechanisms, the like very strange way they are 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:15.480 like doubling down on criminalization of folks doing community care. 0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:18.080 And then there's just like the really day to day 0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:23.080 personal personal bits of this that affect all of us 0:59:23.120 --> 0:59:25.520 in different ways, and a felony would affect lots of 0:59:25.640 --> 0:59:29.720 us in different ways, Like it endangers professional licensure, Like 0:59:29.960 --> 0:59:33.560 I'm trying to get a social work license, like people, 0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:37.080 it endangers professional licensure. Of course, I right to vote, 0:59:37.560 --> 0:59:43.520 housing and employment. And you know, I'm the like middle aged, white, 0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:48.320 middle class mom, second graduate degree person in the group. 0:59:49.160 --> 0:59:51.800 I am not really representative of our group. Like folks 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:54.320 are in a lot less folks are in a lot 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:58.640 more precarious and material circumstances than I am, and so 0:59:58.800 --> 1:00:02.440 much so that like, you know, it feels safe for 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:04.680 me to come on this podcast. It doesn't feel safe 1:00:04.720 --> 1:00:06.720 for everybody to come on a podcast. It feels safe 1:00:07.080 --> 1:00:09.880 for me to have my name out, like, um, it 1:00:10.000 --> 1:00:14.640 doesn't for everybody. And I think, um, yeah, I think 1:00:14.680 --> 1:00:16.920 that that's something that has to be named too. Of 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:19.840 like how what I threat this is to folks future 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:22.600 material will being as well as currently Like folks have 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:25.520 most housing over this, Folks have lost employment over this, 1:00:25.920 --> 1:00:29.760 like um Jesus Christ. Yeah, like even if you're found 1:00:29.840 --> 1:00:33.360 completely innocent or whatever, like this has robbed your time 1:00:33.440 --> 1:00:35.680 or people at the housing or people's their jobs. It 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:39.680 caused stress and in that way, you know, it does 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:45.240 feel and often to us like the like the punishment 1:00:45.320 --> 1:00:50.360 is the process. Yeah, it's just harassment. So I don't 1:00:50.400 --> 1:00:52.240 know if I feel are updated on like there are 1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:55.160 five of us being taken to trial. Is that something 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:58.240 you know? Okay, yeah so yeah yeah, but our listeners 1:00:58.280 --> 1:01:02.120 probably aren't. So it's lain like so right after this 1:01:02.240 --> 1:01:04.040 happened or at some point, Alt's happening. So I know 1:01:04.080 --> 1:01:05.720 when we started speaking, I was like, oh, well, I'd 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:08.200 pr ra this shit out of Aya City council people, 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:11.760 and you were like we already have. Yeah, so because 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:15.640 there was some stuff in there that was just weirdly Yeah, 1:01:17.040 --> 1:01:19.720 can you what you got from, like this has got 1:01:19.760 --> 1:01:25.080 a problem job Montaka come from, among other things. Sure, yeah, gosh, 1:01:25.080 --> 1:01:28.800 it's so even talking about it, I have such a 1:01:28.880 --> 1:01:34.400 reaction and um that I can feel um and I 1:01:34.480 --> 1:01:38.200 should say, you know, I speak about this to my 1:01:38.600 --> 1:01:40.880 not not about the city of the text necessarily, but 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:42.720 I speak about the situation to a lot of people 1:01:43.680 --> 1:01:46.360 because it does feel to us like you know, they're 1:01:46.400 --> 1:01:48.760 also I think they would like us to be ashamed, 1:01:49.200 --> 1:01:51.920 but we're not ashamed of what is happening to I mean, 1:01:51.960 --> 1:01:54.200 that's part of the degradation of a quick system. And 1:01:54.360 --> 1:01:56.640 so you know, all of my neighbors know what is 1:01:56.680 --> 1:01:59.160 happening to me, all of the people that I work 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:04.040 with in the various like uh, school related jobs and 1:02:04.120 --> 1:02:06.680 such that I do. And to a person, everyone in 1:02:06.760 --> 1:02:11.320 Asheville starts with disbelief. They're like no, and then I'm 1:02:11.360 --> 1:02:15.959 like yes, and then they're just so disappointed, like they're 1:02:16.000 --> 1:02:21.440 just they're so appalled. Often people say the number in 1:02:21.520 --> 1:02:23.480 nineteen eighty four, Like often people are like, wow, I 1:02:23.600 --> 1:02:26.640 really I didn't know. Some people did know, you know 1:02:26.760 --> 1:02:32.400 that the city was was like this. UM, but you 1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:35.200 know that's that's sort of paralleled my experience in a way, 1:02:35.320 --> 1:02:40.480 just like disbelief and then and then disappointment. UM. But yeah, 1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:48.440 we recently it's intensified recently seeing the publicly available communication 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:59.360 between council members UM, and I think, UM, I want 1:02:59.400 --> 1:03:01.919 to be careful and I don't have it in front 1:03:01.920 --> 1:03:03.400 of me, and so I don't want to I don't 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:06.240 want to misquote it. But what I can say, UM, 1:03:06.480 --> 1:03:09.400 is that anybody can go find on the City of 1:03:09.440 --> 1:03:11.960 ashtables public records or busts. Anybody can go get those 1:03:12.080 --> 1:03:16.280 now because they've been requested UM. And so they're publicly available. 1:03:16.320 --> 1:03:21.520 And we have texts between council members that UM, that 1:03:21.640 --> 1:03:26.560 are kind of debate that that are in contemplation of 1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:32.560 an ordinance that would restrict food sharing in public places 1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:37.560 to to require permitting in contemplation of that, like we 1:03:37.760 --> 1:03:43.120 have we have texts from council members calling um, those 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:45.480 who do those who do fouturing and ask and park 1:03:45.640 --> 1:03:48.680 problem children, um and saying that it's a shame that 1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:50.640 the problem children have ruined it for the rest of 1:03:50.720 --> 1:03:54.680 the class. We have. We have one saying like, you know, 1:03:55.440 --> 1:03:57.560 probably if if we go ahead, we city council go 1:03:57.600 --> 1:04:00.040 ahead with this, with this ordinance, there will be a 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:02.160 lot of protests and a lot of pushbacks, which of 1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:05.000 course there was once it came out. UM. And we 1:04:05.080 --> 1:04:07.200 have the other council members saying like, yeah, that might 1:04:07.240 --> 1:04:09.840 be UM, but if permitting is the only way to 1:04:09.960 --> 1:04:15.360 get them to stop, then so be it. And any 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:18.400 I mean I read that, and I have a variety 1:04:18.440 --> 1:04:21.040 of reactions, but mostly just like a kind of nauseous 1:04:21.040 --> 1:04:28.560 disappointment UM. In And this is not true of all 1:04:28.600 --> 1:04:31.520 council UM, because some of some some folks have tried 1:04:31.600 --> 1:04:37.600 to like understand the gap being filled by folks who 1:04:37.680 --> 1:04:40.240 give out food and gear in a park. UM. And 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:44.000 I think some of the council and have recognize it 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:46.560 as a gap um that is being filled. And I 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:53.200 think some are are so aware of what it says 1:04:53.240 --> 1:04:56.720 about the city that folks have to show up in 1:04:56.800 --> 1:04:59.040 a park and give out food and gear and there's 1:04:59.160 --> 1:05:02.200 never enough of either. Um. They're so aware of what 1:05:02.360 --> 1:05:05.840 that lays there, about the abandonment that the city practices 1:05:06.320 --> 1:05:09.440 of those who live here, that they can only see that, 1:05:09.520 --> 1:05:11.720 and they can only be angry with us, right and 1:05:12.320 --> 1:05:16.960 call us problem children like forty three. Yeah, well you 1:05:17.000 --> 1:05:18.560 can see the sort of like like the kind of 1:05:18.720 --> 1:05:21.600 just like petty dictatorship mind that they've gotten themselves into. 1:05:21.760 --> 1:05:24.840 Were like they can't see the people who like you know, 1:05:25.000 --> 1:05:27.240 nominally they're supposed to be serving, right, but like, okay, 1:05:27.280 --> 1:05:29.080 we know how far that goes, but they can't see 1:05:29.360 --> 1:05:31.320 like you as anything other than just like a child. 1:05:31.440 --> 1:05:33.720 Because that's the kind of like this is the sort 1:05:33.720 --> 1:05:37.400 of dictator brain that they've that they've from like holding 1:05:37.440 --> 1:05:42.200 this power. It's it kind of reminds me of like 1:05:42.440 --> 1:05:45.680 how you see with the fourteenth he said, like the 1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:48.560 state is me and therefore a tax on my reputation 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:52.560 or like a tax against the state. Like yeah, that's 1:05:52.600 --> 1:05:55.320 how it feels like you're being treated us by making 1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:57.440 them look bad. And I don't know if you saw 1:05:57.520 --> 1:06:01.680 this also in there, but um on the day that 1:06:01.840 --> 1:06:06.200 the arrests happen. So so those discussions about the ordinance 1:06:06.280 --> 1:06:08.240 were I think a little earlier in January that we 1:06:08.240 --> 1:06:11.800 should actually too that. Um, but there's a there's one 1:06:12.360 --> 1:06:15.960 that came right on the day of the first arrests 1:06:16.120 --> 1:06:20.880 for felany lettering that um or someone asks like can 1:06:20.960 --> 1:06:27.360 those arrested be banned from certain places? Um? And and 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:32.000 we know now yes, but it is it's a lot 1:06:32.120 --> 1:06:35.320 to see that. It's a lot to see what looks, um, 1:06:37.000 --> 1:06:40.640 what looks so deliberately like depriving us of a sorry 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:46.000 to be in a perk? Yeah? Yeah? And so where 1:06:46.160 --> 1:06:49.840 is where's the five you are going to trial? Yeah? 1:06:50.520 --> 1:06:54.840 Unknown number of people are banned from parks in Nashville. Yes, yes. 1:06:56.200 --> 1:07:01.560 My understanding is that someone has been told, um, oh, 1:07:01.640 --> 1:07:05.320 we don't keep records of that, which also doesn't make 1:07:05.360 --> 1:07:07.520 a lot of sense. Yeah, how can you force a 1:07:07.560 --> 1:07:09.919 bath if we don't have a record of who's bay? Yeah, 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:13.840 and I shouldn't be quoted on that, but um, but 1:07:14.000 --> 1:07:16.720 my understanding is that, like, um, is that that has 1:07:16.760 --> 1:07:19.160 been the It's like, oh no, there aren't records that 1:07:19.200 --> 1:07:20.919 we can that can be made public about that, because 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:24.400 there's some police aren't for records. UM do that just 1:07:24.440 --> 1:07:27.600 seems like that's just just like incredibly bizarre secret police shit. 1:07:27.720 --> 1:07:29.440 Of like, yeah, I know we have like we have 1:07:29.520 --> 1:07:31.880 we have lists that don't exist of people who are 1:07:31.920 --> 1:07:34.160 banned from spaces and we won't tell you what they 1:07:34.160 --> 1:07:36.960 are because I don't existe. Yeah, you'll find out when 1:07:37.040 --> 1:07:39.840 this what team comes from behind the swings and yeah 1:07:42.000 --> 1:07:47.200 yeah yeah, yeah terrible. So yeah, you're banned from the park, 1:07:47.560 --> 1:07:51.840 you're facing you're going to trial. Yeah, five of us 1:07:52.200 --> 1:07:57.040 um have been have been scheduled for trial and the 1:07:57.120 --> 1:08:00.520 other folks UM have been kind of it's called taken 1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:03.440 off the calendar, so they don't have nothing's dismissed um 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:07.000 but um, but they're not scheduled. There's no there's no 1:08:07.160 --> 1:08:11.520 next quart date for them. Okay, so when when will 1:08:11.600 --> 1:08:13.520 you if you don't mind saying, when would your trial 1:08:13.600 --> 1:08:15.840 date be? Our trial date right now is set for 1:08:15.960 --> 1:08:19.680 February twenty seventh. Well okay, so you're coming up, it's 1:08:19.720 --> 1:08:23.840 coming right up. Yeah, that's tough. We'll make sure we 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:27.360 get this out before then. How can people support you, 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:32.160 support the work that you uh not doing in parks anymore? 1:08:33.240 --> 1:08:35.639 How can people help you through this? I'm sure it's 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:39.800 a really stressful trial prices, Yeah, thank you for asking. Um, 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:46.479 so we post updates in a few different places. UM, 1:08:48.640 --> 1:08:50.439 But we don't have our own Instagram right now because 1:08:50.439 --> 1:08:56.160 we're we just don't. But our our defendant statements get 1:08:56.200 --> 1:08:59.280 released in a few different places, including UM at a 1:08:59.439 --> 1:09:05.280 V survival on Instagram. We also have a website where 1:09:05.280 --> 1:09:07.680 we always post our own statements and also all the 1:09:08.280 --> 1:09:11.520 press that comes out about us, and that is abl 1:09:11.840 --> 1:09:18.920 Solidarity dot no blogs dot org. We have a VENMO 1:09:19.520 --> 1:09:23.480 which is used that those funds are used for attorney 1:09:23.520 --> 1:09:29.320 fees and and frankly, like you know when someone loses 1:09:29.360 --> 1:09:32.639 housing or their car breaks down and they have had 1:09:32.880 --> 1:09:35.479 trouble finding employment because they have fell any lettering churches 1:09:35.479 --> 1:09:37.800 against them, and it's also used for material needs in 1:09:37.840 --> 1:09:43.280 that way, and that is a VL defendant fund And 1:09:43.400 --> 1:09:45.840 all that's actually on the website too. You can find 1:09:45.880 --> 1:09:50.599 those UM. And honestly, it matters so much that people 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:52.760 just know this is happening, you know, when I tell 1:09:52.840 --> 1:09:56.760 people in Ashville, like more people know now than did before. UM, 1:09:57.200 --> 1:09:59.840 when I tell people outside of Asheville, there's very much 1:10:00.120 --> 1:10:03.400 like I thought about coming there. I heard it was cool. 1:10:04.040 --> 1:10:08.479 It's like they do want those who make not just 1:10:08.600 --> 1:10:10.960 like a living from tourism but those who make tons 1:10:11.000 --> 1:10:13.840 of money from tourism are certainly invested in you thinking 1:10:13.920 --> 1:10:15.559 that it's really cool and tell me to spend your 1:10:15.600 --> 1:10:17.560 money here. And it's not cool in the ways that 1:10:17.600 --> 1:10:19.479 they want you to think it's cool. It is cool 1:10:19.520 --> 1:10:22.080 because neighbors show up for each other and you can 1:10:22.120 --> 1:10:24.240 come here and we'll talk to you about that. But 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:27.559 there's a way that, like people knowing what this place 1:10:27.680 --> 1:10:31.040 is really like does matter. And there's a way that honestly, 1:10:31.120 --> 1:10:35.000 people just like sending us like they're beautiful energy and 1:10:35.160 --> 1:10:39.120 hope really matters too, Like that actually that actually really 1:10:39.160 --> 1:10:41.400 doesn't matter. So they can send us through beautiful energy 1:10:41.439 --> 1:10:45.040 and hope and material contributions as they might have them. Yeah, 1:10:45.160 --> 1:10:49.920 I'm sure people will because horrifically fucked up. I wanted 1:10:49.960 --> 1:10:54.320 to ask, what is the sentence range for felony littering? Yeah, 1:10:56.920 --> 1:11:00.839 so it's the lowest class of felony. As it happens 1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:04.040 none of us have any criminalstery. Yeah, we'd be facing 1:11:04.120 --> 1:11:07.559 felony probation and so that could that there's a range 1:11:07.640 --> 1:11:12.280 there of whether that probation is supervised or unsupervised. Um, 1:11:12.400 --> 1:11:14.840 there's a range of how long it would be there's 1:11:14.880 --> 1:11:19.799 a range um of restitution in terms of community service, 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:24.120 um and and I actually don't have the paper in 1:11:24.160 --> 1:11:25.599 front of me that says what the range of those 1:11:25.640 --> 1:11:27.639 things are, but I feel like it's eight twelve months 1:11:27.720 --> 1:11:31.080 on probation um and a lot of that is simply 1:11:31.120 --> 1:11:37.080 at the discretion of incentencing um and um And I 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:40.439 think that that there are some puzzible restrictions on just 1:11:40.560 --> 1:11:46.360 like being able to leave the state. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:11:46.479 --> 1:11:49.840 I mean yeah, probation. Sorry, christ Like, this is fully 1:11:49.920 --> 1:11:53.280 fucking sent me now. Because a guy, a man called 1:11:53.400 --> 1:11:56.439 Robert Wilson in San Diego was arrested for hate crimes 1:11:56.560 --> 1:11:59.679 because he assaulted his gay neighbor. Since he was arrested, 1:11:59.720 --> 1:12:02.479 he's riven around San Diego and La dressed as a Nazi, 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:06.560 sometimes with horrifically anti semitic slogan. Has just left the 1:12:06.600 --> 1:12:14.200 country and is living in Poland because because fucking like somehow, sorry, 1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:17.960 I'm sorry, I love it. This is fully fully sent 1:12:18.080 --> 1:12:23.960 me now too. Yeah, yeah, what is wrong with this ship? 1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:26.760 Yeah there's something else you wanted to get to you? Yeah, 1:12:26.920 --> 1:12:30.360 I think I wanted to name so, you know, people 1:12:30.400 --> 1:12:33.360 are so in a way like I wish I had 1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:35.439 a super cut of everyone I've ever said the word 1:12:35.479 --> 1:12:39.280 felony lettering too, just like their faces over and over again. 1:12:40.120 --> 1:12:43.360 Maybe I'll come to Asheville and just vox pops. Yeah, 1:12:45.040 --> 1:12:47.000 so there's a way that you know, of course that's 1:12:47.080 --> 1:12:49.479 just like and with you add on eating and a betting, 1:12:49.479 --> 1:12:52.000 which we've all been bumped up to felony lettering but 1:12:52.760 --> 1:12:54.640 or sort of but but but the myst miyor is 1:12:54.720 --> 1:13:04.120 conspiracy to commit no, yeah, what's next greco charge? Yes, 1:13:04.720 --> 1:13:08.120 so so um so on its face, you know, it 1:13:08.200 --> 1:13:11.400 has this ring of absurdity, and of course like it is. 1:13:11.560 --> 1:13:14.600 You know, a lot of the press about us, you know, 1:13:14.640 --> 1:13:16.360 they'll go talk to someone at the School of Government 1:13:16.439 --> 1:13:18.360 who says, like, well, this is baffling and at the 1:13:18.479 --> 1:13:21.360 very least seems like a misapplication of the statute, which 1:13:21.479 --> 1:13:26.640 is about um huge amounts of waste often being like 1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:31.160 dumped by businesses. Um. But I think it's it's it's 1:13:31.240 --> 1:13:34.240 telling that a couple maybe a month or two ago, 1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:38.200 there was an article in the Citizen Times, a local paper, 1:13:38.840 --> 1:13:43.960 about US and a company, Waste pro which had dumped 1:13:44.800 --> 1:13:49.680 um an entire dumpster's worth of trash um. Now I'm 1:13:50.080 --> 1:13:54.920 like out somewhere outside of um where it should have 1:13:55.000 --> 1:13:58.240 been like in the in the landfillm um. And but 1:13:58.640 --> 1:14:00.800 it was all about like how actually they had followed 1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:03.040 procedure because there was like maybe a little bit of 1:14:03.080 --> 1:14:04.840 a battery fire or something. There was something going on 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:06.439 with it where they they weren't supposed to bring it in, 1:14:06.520 --> 1:14:09.600 so they just had to dump it. But in the 1:14:09.680 --> 1:14:15.080 course of this article, they interviewed a lot of people 1:14:15.160 --> 1:14:17.360 about like, well, what's going on with like litter in 1:14:17.439 --> 1:14:19.479 general and like big amounts of litter, and our case 1:14:19.600 --> 1:14:22.439 was never mentioned, but they did talk to some folks 1:14:22.520 --> 1:14:26.600 who who do river clean up, an organization called GreenWorks, 1:14:27.080 --> 1:14:30.640 and that person said, you know, sometimes there are like 1:14:30.880 --> 1:14:35.240 there's huge amounts of dumping that happens, and we call 1:14:35.400 --> 1:14:38.680 the city and they say, yeah, that's illegal, but we 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:44.400 don't actually prosecute that. And like seeing you know, that's 1:14:44.439 --> 1:14:46.320 the sort of thing also that seeing in print, I'm 1:14:46.360 --> 1:14:53.080 just like, what what sort of strange like dystopian novel 1:14:53.240 --> 1:14:55.400 am I living in where the city is so upfront 1:14:55.479 --> 1:14:59.080 that like, oh no, like we wouldn't prosecute felony littering, 1:15:00.360 --> 1:15:06.920 but when it comes to aiming to disrupt a kind 1:15:06.960 --> 1:15:11.200 of community care and political speech that they don't like. Um, 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:16.280 they're willing to expend an incredible amount of resources on it, 1:15:16.439 --> 1:15:18.880 you know, like the number of resources that have gone 1:15:18.920 --> 1:15:22.240 into this would have funded like sanctuary camping with sanitation 1:15:22.320 --> 1:15:27.000 services like for years, for years, and you know, I 1:15:27.120 --> 1:15:29.160 think you alluded though maybe this is in the future 1:15:29.160 --> 1:15:31.880 of the podcast, like to the way the City of 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:35.720 Asheville or our lawyers have been clear that when you 1:15:35.880 --> 1:15:38.360 when you look at the City of Asheville's like public 1:15:38.400 --> 1:15:44.680 apronouncements and the way that that they talk about um homelessness, 1:15:45.120 --> 1:15:47.439 it does seem like, oh wow, we're really we're really 1:15:47.479 --> 1:15:50.920 trying to get on this UM. But at a recent 1:15:51.240 --> 1:15:58.760 meeting where a consultant group often referred to as like yeah, 1:15:58.800 --> 1:16:01.360 that other that that consultant group from now because it's 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:04.479 happened to over and over again, presented findings about like 1:16:04.800 --> 1:16:07.479 what should actually be done to end unsheltered homelessness. Here 1:16:07.600 --> 1:16:11.840 presented finding to the city council and accounting commissioners. No 1:16:11.920 --> 1:16:15.000 one was allowed to talk except for this huge meeting. 1:16:15.080 --> 1:16:17.760 No one was allowed to talk except for council members 1:16:17.760 --> 1:16:20.519 and commissioners and those who were presenting. But a man 1:16:20.600 --> 1:16:23.320 who actually has experience, was experience with homelessness, got up 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:26.960 and talked anyways, and he was interrupted by the mayor 1:16:29.640 --> 1:16:33.439 and like that's telling in its own right. That's that's 1:16:33.479 --> 1:16:36.720 telling in its own right. Also telling is that later 1:16:38.040 --> 1:16:41.040 also not allowed to speak. A local pastor got up 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:44.840 and said, you know, I saw that happen. You know, 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:48.280 like what we need to be doing is actually listening 1:16:48.600 --> 1:16:51.800 to the folks who've experienced this and like data, yes, 1:16:51.920 --> 1:16:54.160 we need data, but we also need to like actually 1:16:54.200 --> 1:16:56.240 listen to the voices of what's going on. And he 1:16:56.400 --> 1:17:02.200 used the phrase, which I think was echoing the man 1:17:02.280 --> 1:17:05.000 who had spoken earlier, spiritual death, and said that this 1:17:05.360 --> 1:17:08.200 he thinks as a pastor, that Ashville is in a 1:17:08.240 --> 1:17:11.960 moment of spiritual death. And in a way, that's why 1:17:12.000 --> 1:17:14.360 I say, like we need you, We need your material 1:17:14.479 --> 1:17:19.599 contributions to us as defendants to collective care. Like when 1:17:19.600 --> 1:17:21.160 we have extra money in that defendive fund, we just 1:17:21.240 --> 1:17:24.120 give it away. Some people can buy more tents, and 1:17:24.280 --> 1:17:27.560 we need like we need some hope because Ashville is 1:17:27.640 --> 1:17:34.080 in this momentum where it's as a city, it's making 1:17:34.200 --> 1:17:37.960 choices that seem so misaligned, not just with like the 1:17:38.040 --> 1:17:40.640 image that it would like to sell to tourists, but 1:17:40.800 --> 1:17:44.280 like with the people who live here and are actually 1:17:44.479 --> 1:17:47.920 like about it day to day in a neighbor's caring 1:17:47.960 --> 1:17:52.320 for a neighbor's way, like really misaligned with what we 1:17:52.320 --> 1:17:54.840 actually want and what we actually are capable of offering 1:17:54.880 --> 1:17:59.680 each other. Yeah, yeah, it is deeply sad, but like 1:18:00.479 --> 1:18:03.280 we've created this abstraction of society which is being entirely 1:18:03.280 --> 1:18:06.760 anti social, like no one wants, no one, ye, no 1:18:07.520 --> 1:18:09.880 reasonable person would do that, But we've got the state, 1:18:09.920 --> 1:18:12.640 which in theory acts on our behalf and is doing it. 1:18:13.439 --> 1:18:18.120 Yeah yeah, which also is probably to editorialize for a second. 1:18:19.640 --> 1:18:22.639 Often people will make this argument, I see it specifically 1:18:22.680 --> 1:18:24.600 around gun laws, but with other laws, to where this 1:18:24.720 --> 1:18:26.640 law won't always be enforced and only use it if 1:18:26.640 --> 1:18:28.320 they need it if they have to get a bad person. 1:18:29.080 --> 1:18:32.559 They will use it if anybody threatens their interest, their 1:18:32.680 --> 1:18:36.800 shit right, Like it was extensively mobilized for a ghost 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:40.680 gun law here, which made some bizarre things illegal, like 1:18:41.000 --> 1:18:43.519 the bank stick which you use for spear fishing, is 1:18:43.560 --> 1:18:45.800 now a ghost gun and a felony, and like there 1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:47.800 were definitely boomers who have dozens of those in their 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:51.280 garage right and don't keep up on local audiences and 1:18:51.360 --> 1:18:53.599 are now, in theory at risk of committing a felony. 1:18:53.640 --> 1:18:56.120 And then obviously the response to that from the councilors, oh, well, 1:18:56.160 --> 1:19:00.320 we wouldn't charge them, like who we can't us the 1:19:00.400 --> 1:19:03.400 state to be benevolent when it's your experience is shown 1:19:03.400 --> 1:19:07.519 it's anything but and you know we And I can 1:19:07.560 --> 1:19:11.320 say this personally because I've spoken I've spoken to people 1:19:11.600 --> 1:19:13.800 in city government or in state government who I've just 1:19:13.840 --> 1:19:16.599 said like, hey, did you know this is happening? Um? 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:24.400 And and they're clear about how Um sure it sounds 1:19:24.520 --> 1:19:27.920 nettie but the city but like that, but that that 1:19:28.080 --> 1:19:33.320 we as a group have been painted as particularly dangerous. 1:19:33.960 --> 1:19:36.479 And that part to me is like, I mean, don't 1:19:36.520 --> 1:19:39.000 do this to anybody, you know, don't do it to anybody. 1:19:39.479 --> 1:19:43.439 But the part where where what's going on is like, 1:19:43.560 --> 1:19:49.400 it's is this strange justification, um, with the idea that 1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:53.479 that we are dangerous people who deserve to be taken 1:19:53.479 --> 1:19:55.320 you know, who need to be taken out of a part, 1:19:55.360 --> 1:19:57.040 who need to not be allowed to be in a park. 1:19:57.640 --> 1:20:03.879 You know is particularly easily disproved by anyone who actually 1:20:04.000 --> 1:20:07.200 like hangs out with us, knows what, knows who we 1:20:07.240 --> 1:20:09.640 are and what we've done. But not when it's just 1:20:09.840 --> 1:20:12.439 like a weird whisper campaign in the in the halls 1:20:12.439 --> 1:20:15.160 of city government, like oh no, they're bad, Like they're 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:18.800 just bad. Um. Like we we've heard the lies that 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:20.680 they've told about us, some of them we have in 1:20:21.120 --> 1:20:25.080 um in you know, public records requests like um that 1:20:25.160 --> 1:20:27.120 we haven't even talked about. But it's it's a it's 1:20:27.160 --> 1:20:32.360 a really strange thing to be to be painted that way. Yeah, yeah, 1:20:32.479 --> 1:20:35.439 it's design. Again. I'm sorry it's happening to you. And 1:20:36.320 --> 1:20:39.719 so I think to wrap up, maybe again, you could 1:20:39.800 --> 1:20:44.360 just give that venmost people can support materially and yeah, 1:20:45.040 --> 1:20:47.080 you know, if there's any other social media account where 1:20:47.080 --> 1:20:49.280 people can follow along, where people can send their support 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:54.320 and best wishes, that yeah, that's great. Um our venmo 1:20:54.600 --> 1:21:01.599 is a VL defendant fund and um yeah you can 1:21:01.920 --> 1:21:04.640 so on Instagram. We're easy to get you through a 1:21:04.800 --> 1:21:08.960 VL survival and there's a way to contact us through 1:21:08.960 --> 1:21:10.600 our website. We can have a little we have a 1:21:10.600 --> 1:21:13.320 little email. I'll be so cute to get some supportive emails, 1:21:13.360 --> 1:21:18.720 and that website is a VL solidarity dot no blogs 1:21:18.960 --> 1:21:23.560 dot org. Amazing. Thank you all so much, thank you 1:21:23.600 --> 1:21:25.840 for giving us your time. I'm sorry that you're dealing 1:21:25.920 --> 1:21:30.479 with the fairy US state bullshit. All right, So that 1:21:30.560 --> 1:21:32.640 wraps up. Are into you with Sarah. Tomorrow we'll be 1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:36.439 talking to Maniba from the ACOU, the American Civil Liberties Union, 1:21:36.640 --> 1:21:39.040 and he will be giving us a legal perspective and 1:21:39.160 --> 1:21:41.479 some more insight into this case. We'll look forward to 1:21:41.520 --> 1:21:59.560 talking to you then. Hi everyone, it's James again. I 1:21:59.640 --> 1:22:02.080 just want to remind you that this is part two 1:22:02.240 --> 1:22:04.120 of a two parta and if you haven't listened to 1:22:04.240 --> 1:22:06.320 yesterday's podcast, today's might not make a lot of sense, 1:22:06.439 --> 1:22:08.680 So I would suggest starting there. Obviously, you know of 1:22:08.760 --> 1:22:11.519 your own lifetill you want, but you're going to understand 1:22:11.520 --> 1:22:13.800 today's a lot more if you start with yesterday's. Today 1:22:13.840 --> 1:22:16.120 we speaking to Menieba with the ACLU about the legal 1:22:16.160 --> 1:22:20.240 response to some of the bizarre things City of Asheville 1:22:20.280 --> 1:22:22.840 has been doing. If you hear reference to Pip in 1:22:22.920 --> 1:22:25.679 this episode, that's because Pip is another of the activists. 1:22:25.720 --> 1:22:27.479 They weren't able to make our call but we're going 1:22:27.520 --> 1:22:29.400 to be speaking to them as well in our ongoing 1:22:29.439 --> 1:22:32.360 coverage of this. So hope you enjoy today's episode know 1:22:32.439 --> 1:22:35.360 that we'll keep you updated as this moves forward. All right, 1:22:35.439 --> 1:22:39.800 so our first guest today is Niba and Minnie. But 1:22:39.840 --> 1:22:42.360 would you like to introduce yourself explain your relationship to 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:46.360 what we're talking about today. Yeah. Sure, So my name 1:22:46.479 --> 1:22:49.680 is Maniba Talister. I'm a stop attorney with the ACLU 1:22:50.320 --> 1:22:54.479 Narth CAREL I know, and I represent some of these 1:22:54.560 --> 1:23:01.400 wonderful folks that you'll be talking to actor me and UM, 1:23:01.840 --> 1:23:06.400 it's unfortunate that we met this way, um, but you know, 1:23:06.520 --> 1:23:09.880 I'm happy to be working with them. So basically I 1:23:09.960 --> 1:23:13.400 can go into it or do you want to ask 1:23:13.479 --> 1:23:16.760 me questions about it? Or I think it'd be great 1:23:16.800 --> 1:23:18.840 if you could start off by sort of walking us 1:23:18.960 --> 1:23:21.800 through how Mutual Aid seems to have met with this 1:23:22.000 --> 1:23:28.760 bizarre prosecution. Yeah, of course. UM, so we got connected 1:23:29.160 --> 1:23:34.479 to um, you know our now clients, UM, this group 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:40.560 of individuals whom you know have been doing important advocacy 1:23:40.640 --> 1:23:43.799 and rachel Aid work on the house of on house folks, 1:23:44.200 --> 1:23:48.240 um in ethel and UM we were connected by this 1:23:48.439 --> 1:23:52.680 other organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of 1:23:52.720 --> 1:24:00.320 filled in quickly about how this group of people were 1:24:01.320 --> 1:24:05.160 not only banned from perks, but these bands were based 1:24:05.280 --> 1:24:12.000 on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering um, which 1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:17.960 you know, it sounds as crazy as it is. Um. 1:24:21.880 --> 1:24:26.960 So so yeah, you know, I think, um, my colleagues 1:24:27.000 --> 1:24:32.960 and I at the ECLU, we were eager to talk 1:24:33.040 --> 1:24:36.519 to these folks and learn more about what happened and 1:24:36.960 --> 1:24:42.040 see what we can do and um uh and you know, 1:24:42.160 --> 1:24:45.439 start talking about some of the legal issues that um 1:24:46.360 --> 1:24:51.640 that arise from when a city tries to ban a 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:55.200 large group of people from from one of the few 1:24:55.640 --> 1:25:00.400 places that they have to convene and to protest um 1:25:00.479 --> 1:25:04.519 and demonstrate, which you know, one of the first things 1:25:04.720 --> 1:25:07.600 I learned in law school is like how or like 1:25:07.720 --> 1:25:11.360 one of the first things I think I learned as 1:25:12.160 --> 1:25:16.160 someone living in the US, like you you always hear 1:25:16.360 --> 1:25:19.960 kids say, oh, I have free speech, like you know, 1:25:20.360 --> 1:25:26.800 free speeches. So it's such a central part of being 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:30.880 in this or like growing up in this country and 1:25:31.040 --> 1:25:34.320 being a citizen or a member of this country. Is 1:25:34.479 --> 1:25:38.760 just the way that is thrown around, sometimes inaccurately, but 1:25:39.240 --> 1:25:45.280 people generally know that that speech should be protected and 1:25:45.920 --> 1:25:52.599 cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by the government. UM, 1:25:52.720 --> 1:25:54.760 not by like you know, your mom. You don't have 1:25:56.360 --> 1:25:58.640 free speech in front of your mom. Like that's not 1:25:59.080 --> 1:26:04.600 that I learned that. Um. Yeah when I took my 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:08.040 being an American test, I took I became a citisen 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:11.120 a couple of months ago. And there's like only like 1:26:11.240 --> 1:26:13.000 fifty questions they can ask you, And I think two 1:26:13.040 --> 1:26:16.680 of them are like, what it's free speech? Like like yeah, yeah, 1:26:16.920 --> 1:26:19.720 can you claim free speech when you get banned from 1:26:19.760 --> 1:26:26.320 Twitter dot com? Like yeah, it's something, Yeah, that's yeah. 1:26:26.479 --> 1:26:30.559 And I think, um, I think you know it's UM 1:26:31.560 --> 1:26:37.559 it's absurd to criminalize protest, of course, UM, but it's 1:26:39.040 --> 1:26:44.200 it's also like equally as troubling to take away this 1:26:45.800 --> 1:26:50.840 this important public space from people that UM, you know, 1:26:51.040 --> 1:26:53.559 especially in a city like Ashville, if you've been there, 1:26:53.680 --> 1:26:56.320 it's one of the few public spaces that people can 1:26:56.400 --> 1:27:02.400 convene and um get together and enjoy each other's company. UM. 1:27:03.680 --> 1:27:07.080 You know that that being separate from also one of 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.880 the few places that you can protest and and um 1:27:11.120 --> 1:27:15.559 engage and discussion about how to fix problems. So it's 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:21.960 really troubling, um that the City of Bashville has had 1:27:22.040 --> 1:27:25.320 taken that route. So when the ACIL you got involved, 1:27:26.360 --> 1:27:29.680 we thought it would be best to list out some 1:27:29.800 --> 1:27:33.160 of these legal issues. UM. You know, I mentioned the 1:27:33.240 --> 1:27:37.880 First Amendment UM and free speech, but there are also 1:27:38.600 --> 1:27:45.120 a lot of procedural due process problems that um are 1:27:45.280 --> 1:27:50.720 issues that come up when you then folks from a park. Um. 1:27:51.000 --> 1:27:53.680 One of you know, one of the things that the 1:27:53.760 --> 1:27:57.720 city didn't do is provide proper notice. So a few 1:27:57.760 --> 1:28:01.759 of our clients never received notice that they were banned 1:28:01.840 --> 1:28:05.360 from the park, and you know, found out that they 1:28:05.439 --> 1:28:09.360 were banned either through the discovery process in their criminal 1:28:10.320 --> 1:28:16.160 cases or by doing like very intense investigation of their 1:28:16.240 --> 1:28:20.479 own which you know, that is not a that's just 1:28:20.800 --> 1:28:25.200 not okay, Like a city needs to you need to 1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:29.960 at this is like a very basic thing, right, notice 1:28:30.080 --> 1:28:34.960 and hearing. Those are the tenets of procedural due process. 1:28:35.120 --> 1:28:40.400 And the city fails there. The city then sails again 1:28:40.720 --> 1:28:48.799 at providing hearing and providing opportunity to appeal these bands, 1:28:48.960 --> 1:28:51.960 Like there is no pre deprivation hearing. First of all, 1:28:52.080 --> 1:28:55.920 like the bands, once our clients received them, they're banned. 1:28:56.080 --> 1:28:59.639 They're banned from the parks and cannot go and don't 1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:05.040 how didn't have any opportunity to defend um why they 1:29:05.080 --> 1:29:08.519 shouldn't be banned or be heard about why they shouldn't 1:29:08.560 --> 1:29:13.000 be banned before that band happened, which is, you know, 1:29:13.200 --> 1:29:16.599 it's it's not okay. I think a pre deprivation hearing 1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:22.760 is really important when you're taking away an interest, like 1:29:24.320 --> 1:29:27.560 like the First Amendment interests that I laid out, and 1:29:28.880 --> 1:29:33.200 and then the hearing that was provided was problematic in 1:29:33.280 --> 1:29:37.920 a lot of ways. For one, these were very short 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:43.120 cursory hearing um that lasted from I want to say 1:29:43.200 --> 1:29:45.760 like five to thirty minutes, but I'll let Sarah and 1:29:46.360 --> 1:29:53.759 Tip confirm. And they they had people from Ashville Police 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:59.320 Department who are you know, arguably also involved in the 1:29:59.400 --> 1:30:02.920 criminal case as that that several of our clients are 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:09.320 still sattling through. They were not allowed to ask questions, 1:30:09.600 --> 1:30:13.040 and you know, several of our clients do not have 1:30:13.240 --> 1:30:18.679 the resources to have proper legal representations, so it's sometimes 1:30:18.720 --> 1:30:23.080 our clients were there alone and had to fend for 1:30:23.240 --> 1:30:29.400 themselves and navigate that tricky area of not saying something 1:30:29.960 --> 1:30:34.400 that could hurt you in your criminal case, and you know, 1:30:34.800 --> 1:30:38.960 the hearing was just a mess in all of the ways. 1:30:40.280 --> 1:30:44.719 How does the city like legally justify banning someone from parks? 1:30:44.840 --> 1:30:48.120 I guess they're like a way which they can do that. 1:30:48.720 --> 1:30:52.280 So they have this policy called the Restricted Access to 1:30:52.400 --> 1:30:57.000 City Parks falls policy, and it is I think we 1:30:57.040 --> 1:31:00.959 should call it the park bound policy. They basically allows 1:31:01.120 --> 1:31:07.439 the city to to ban folks from parks based on 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:14.280 certain violations of I think the categories are city park rules, 1:31:14.640 --> 1:31:20.840 city Parks and Recreation Department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, 1:31:20.920 --> 1:31:28.080 and federal laws. So what's interesting is there is no 1:31:30.000 --> 1:31:34.320 there's nowhere in the policy that says when a person 1:31:34.720 --> 1:31:40.880 has committed or that defines what a violation of any 1:31:40.920 --> 1:31:43.360 of these rules are like. Is that a conviction? Is 1:31:43.400 --> 1:31:48.519 that a formal like citation there the policy does not 1:31:48.680 --> 1:31:54.760 provide that. So this is important, I think, especially here 1:31:55.000 --> 1:31:58.960 where our clients, none of them, or actually I shouldn't 1:31:58.960 --> 1:32:01.800 say none of them. Three three of our clients have 1:32:02.120 --> 1:32:08.760 pled to lesser misdemeanor charges, but everyone else has an 1:32:08.800 --> 1:32:13.839 open case and they have not been formally convicted of anything. 1:32:14.439 --> 1:32:20.240 And so it's it's strange that you know, you can 1:32:20.800 --> 1:32:25.679 ban someone based off of the steleny charge that hasn't 1:32:25.840 --> 1:32:32.519 even been fully litigated. Yeah, have they banned there like 1:32:32.600 --> 1:32:35.080 a record of the city banning people from parks or 1:32:35.280 --> 1:32:36.960 have they just like dug this one up from the 1:32:37.080 --> 1:32:44.479 bowels of legislation to ban these people. Oh, that's a 1:32:44.600 --> 1:32:48.120 really interesting question, and I'd love to know the answer myself. 1:32:48.360 --> 1:32:51.680 We did submit a public records request to try to 1:32:52.040 --> 1:32:56.679 figure out if they have, but I imagine the city 1:32:56.840 --> 1:33:00.280 is not going to want to tell us. And I think, Sarah, 1:33:00.560 --> 1:33:04.479 you could speak to this later. But I don't think 1:33:04.560 --> 1:33:08.680 they have. They. I think they've rejected PRRs that you 1:33:09.000 --> 1:33:14.080 all have done and have not provided that elusive restricted 1:33:14.240 --> 1:33:18.080 access list which they have of like folks that they've 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:21.400 spanned from the perks and and maybe that list is 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:27.240 just you know, our clients, which yeah, I mean, maybe 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:30.320 they have. I don't know what's worse, like if they 1:33:30.360 --> 1:33:32.719 have a parks black list and they're just not notifying 1:33:32.840 --> 1:33:36.240 people until like they send a swat team after them, 1:33:36.960 --> 1:33:39.479 or if it's if it's only people who are helping 1:33:39.600 --> 1:33:41.240 unhouse people and they just don't want to admit that. 1:33:41.600 --> 1:33:44.720 Both those are pretty dark on the topic of weird 1:33:44.840 --> 1:33:49.599 legal things. What on earth is felony littering? I'd love 1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:54.760 to know. I'd love to know what felony littering is, because, um, 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:58.200 I'll tell you this. When I told my partner, like, 1:33:58.640 --> 1:34:00.639 I was like, oh, did you know they're something called 1:34:00.680 --> 1:34:04.240 felony littering? And he's like, I hope that's when corporations 1:34:04.320 --> 1:34:09.400 get punished for, you know, dumping toxic waste into the sea. 1:34:09.600 --> 1:34:15.720 But no, it's apparently when community members come together for 1:34:15.840 --> 1:34:25.000 a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind, which, um, 1:34:25.760 --> 1:34:29.160 you know that's uh. I think it's really telling that 1:34:30.640 --> 1:34:37.640 the city has chosen to to prosecute folks on this 1:34:37.960 --> 1:34:43.960 like felony littering charge, which you know hasn't I think 1:34:44.400 --> 1:34:47.639 in the past ten years there's only been one felony 1:34:47.760 --> 1:34:52.120 littering case out of Buncombe County, where Ashville is Okay, 1:34:53.040 --> 1:34:57.000 So I think that's really telling, and I think it's 1:34:58.520 --> 1:35:01.840 it's really troubling that's city of Aashville seems to be 1:35:02.000 --> 1:35:06.439 really taking out a position in silencing speech. It does 1:35:06.520 --> 1:35:11.400 not like yeah, yeah, go ahead, No, they just seem 1:35:11.439 --> 1:35:13.639 to be taking like the most bizarre and ran around 1:35:13.680 --> 1:35:16.880 the first amendment that they can. Yeah, it must be 1:35:17.080 --> 1:35:18.280 a lot of munds. You a lot of like the 1:35:18.360 --> 1:35:21.439 Occupy era stuff where like all of these cities suddenly 1:35:21.560 --> 1:35:24.679 realized that like wait, hold on, these people can actually 1:35:24.800 --> 1:35:28.320 use a park for political activity. And then immediately like 1:35:28.720 --> 1:35:31.200 suddenly that all these like organizes started appearing where like 1:35:31.760 --> 1:35:33.840 everyone has to like clear out of the park by 1:35:33.880 --> 1:35:37.320 ten pms leaking clean it or something that eventually just 1:35:37.400 --> 1:35:39.439 were just like was used to force people out. And 1:35:39.640 --> 1:35:41.719 I don't know, it seems like there's there's something interesting 1:35:41.760 --> 1:35:44.639 too about Like it seems like it's it's almost when 1:35:44.720 --> 1:35:46.960 whenever like a city government tries to something, because it 1:35:46.960 --> 1:35:50.879 seems like they always like immediately reach for sanitation ordinances. 1:35:52.680 --> 1:35:54.280 Like yeah, I was saying like that was that was 1:35:54.320 --> 1:35:56.680 like the big occupy thing, Like they're doing this here too, 1:35:56.760 --> 1:35:59.360 and it's it's I don't know. I think all around 1:35:59.400 --> 1:36:05.040 the country we're seeing the government fish out these weird 1:36:05.240 --> 1:36:11.240 ordinances and make new laws to criminalize poverty and um 1:36:12.040 --> 1:36:18.080 and to criminalize unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, 1:36:18.920 --> 1:36:25.760 unfortunately carries even in places like Ashville, UM that are 1:36:25.840 --> 1:36:31.040 seeing especially after COVID, you know, there's been a rising 1:36:31.160 --> 1:36:37.320 and house population everywhere, and so it's it's really upsetting, 1:36:37.439 --> 1:36:41.720 but it is the truth that these these ordinances and 1:36:42.320 --> 1:36:46.040 laws that are being fished out are being fished out 1:36:46.160 --> 1:36:51.880 to targets folks and um and new laws that lawmakers 1:36:51.920 --> 1:36:54.559 are creating. Now, I was thinking about this. I remembering 1:36:54.760 --> 1:36:58.320 there there's a whole sort of anthropological literature about like 1:36:58.479 --> 1:37:02.920 how colonial states use use like sanitation ordinances as a 1:37:03.000 --> 1:37:06.240 way to sort of destroy like indigenous public spaces and 1:37:06.320 --> 1:37:09.240 the places they colonize. And I guess, like, yeah, I 1:37:09.280 --> 1:37:11.040 don't know, Like there's there's a lot of sort of 1:37:12.720 --> 1:37:16.600 throughput I guess between like the sort of old like 1:37:16.680 --> 1:37:21.479 colonial government's regimes and the way that people still use 1:37:22.040 --> 1:37:24.639 sanitation is like the default way to sort of cleanse 1:37:24.680 --> 1:37:28.120 people out of public spaces. I think it's interesting how 1:37:28.560 --> 1:37:32.600 like um an analogy one can make me visit there 1:37:32.640 --> 1:37:35.240 are people with rights and people without rights, even when 1:37:35.240 --> 1:37:38.320 in theory we all have rights, and like this attempt 1:37:38.439 --> 1:37:40.880 to sort of use sanitation to be like all of 1:37:40.960 --> 1:37:43.240 these people's rights don't matter what. They don't have those 1:37:43.320 --> 1:37:46.960 rights at all. Yeah, it's not not linked to the 1:37:47.040 --> 1:37:55.240 way like metropolits rural colonies. I think also just you know, 1:37:55.560 --> 1:38:02.479 going back to this position that the Ashville is taking. Um, 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:08.439 what's really troubling is like the different angles that they're 1:38:08.640 --> 1:38:12.760 coming at this issue with. Like if you look at 1:38:14.280 --> 1:38:15.920 you know, if you look at some of the press 1:38:16.040 --> 1:38:20.360 releases and blog posts on the city's website about the 1:38:21.000 --> 1:38:24.479 house population, you might get a sense that they're trying 1:38:24.520 --> 1:38:28.240 to find solutions to address what they seem to acknowledge 1:38:28.280 --> 1:38:32.240 as a big problem. But then you know, on the 1:38:32.320 --> 1:38:37.280 flip side, you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment, 1:38:37.560 --> 1:38:40.080 and you know, these part funds. That's that's one of 1:38:40.160 --> 1:38:44.479 the ways that UM, the City of Aashville kind of 1:38:44.760 --> 1:38:48.200 indirectly is like no, please, like, let us do our thing. 1:38:48.360 --> 1:38:51.519 We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing. 1:38:51.800 --> 1:38:57.439 Like we're trying our hardest. You know, that's rich on 1:38:57.560 --> 1:39:01.519 its own, but you know, there's so there's a felony 1:39:01.640 --> 1:39:05.320 littering charges, there's the park bands, and then you know, 1:39:05.479 --> 1:39:08.479 alongside all of this, Like a few weeks ago, we 1:39:08.960 --> 1:39:14.760 followed the petition in Bunkham Truntium Superior Court petitioning for 1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:18.840 the release of police body camera footage of the arrest 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:23.240 of two journalists for the release of um the footage 1:39:23.439 --> 1:39:29.280 that UM that shows the arrests of these journalists covering 1:39:30.400 --> 1:39:36.120 covering the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston 1:39:36.240 --> 1:39:40.799 Park on Christmas night in twenty twenty one, so around 1:39:41.360 --> 1:39:45.640 the same time that several of our clients, UM, you 1:39:45.720 --> 1:39:48.640 know are being hit with these felony charges and then 1:39:48.680 --> 1:39:53.880 shortly after with park bands and UM, the rest of 1:39:54.000 --> 1:39:58.000 journalists in a democracy is very or should be very 1:39:58.160 --> 1:40:02.320 rare and should be troubling. Uh. And these journalists, like 1:40:02.479 --> 1:40:05.200 just to give you some context, UM, we're not shy 1:40:05.360 --> 1:40:08.000 about their critique of the city and how it's handling 1:40:08.920 --> 1:40:14.960 done housed community. And UM that critique is protected by 1:40:15.040 --> 1:40:18.280 the First Amendment. The city of Asheville, I think, is 1:40:18.360 --> 1:40:21.920 just you know, doing its own thing when it's allowing 1:40:22.439 --> 1:40:26.920 arrests of journalists and and UM, the release of that 1:40:27.240 --> 1:40:32.720 body camera footage we think is important to m just 1:40:33.120 --> 1:40:37.599 show what happened, because that's that's that's kind of strange, 1:40:37.720 --> 1:40:44.000 like just in the same way that felony littering is strange. Yeah, 1:40:44.200 --> 1:40:45.880 it does seem like there is there is kind of 1:40:45.920 --> 1:40:49.360 a Yeah, bipassies and commitment to not wanting journalists to 1:40:49.400 --> 1:40:52.240 meddle with you, harassing and house people. It seems to 1:40:52.280 --> 1:40:54.880 be like very much a democrat thing is one of 1:40:54.880 --> 1:40:58.240 the Republican thing. What did were those journalists charged anything 1:40:58.360 --> 1:41:04.680 or were they dis arrested? They were also charged with UM, 1:41:06.200 --> 1:41:11.439 I want to say second degree trust pass UM. And 1:41:11.560 --> 1:41:16.200 they've been pretty vocal about UM their arrests and and 1:41:16.720 --> 1:41:20.920 UM and I think what's been happening. Like their names 1:41:20.960 --> 1:41:28.400 are uh, Veronica Quite and Matilda Bliss. UM. I'm not sure, 1:41:28.479 --> 1:41:31.240 Sarah if you want to add more to that, but UM, 1:41:32.880 --> 1:41:37.360 I think that's that's like another thread that's important to 1:41:37.439 --> 1:41:39.840 this story is like all of the different ways that 1:41:39.960 --> 1:41:44.400 Asheville is operating to silence folks and and and to 1:41:44.600 --> 1:41:49.360 continue doing what they're doing, which you know, in a 1:41:49.840 --> 1:41:54.879 like if you look at UM just their own narrative 1:41:54.960 --> 1:41:58.240 where they talk about, oh, yes, we've you know, evicted 1:41:58.280 --> 1:42:03.600 these folks as a success story, and you know, like 1:42:03.800 --> 1:42:06.800 they'll they'll maybe list like all of the hotels, like 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:10.559 free hotel nights that UM, these folks got for one 1:42:10.640 --> 1:42:15.479 or two nights. But that's obviously not a sustainable solution 1:42:15.880 --> 1:42:25.360 to UM. To you know the plight of that community. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. 1:42:25.400 --> 1:42:28.320 I think sometimes things get done because things look good 1:42:28.320 --> 1:42:30.320 on a press release around them, because it gives anyone 1:42:30.439 --> 1:42:35.439 like longto Maxis to housing. So I wonder what's the situation. 1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:39.439 Several of your clients are now facing felony charges? Are serious? Right? 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:41.439 If people maybe on in the US or don't realize, 1:42:41.479 --> 1:42:44.200 maybe you could explain, like a felony follows you around 1:42:44.240 --> 1:42:48.479 for the rest of your life, right, Yeah, And and 1:42:48.640 --> 1:42:53.160 just to be clear where the AFLU is not defending 1:42:53.680 --> 1:42:58.040 m the on the criminal charges. Um, I think all 1:42:58.080 --> 1:43:02.439 of our clients have suffer representation for their criminal charges 1:43:02.680 --> 1:43:07.400 we've taken on the charge of um addressing these parts 1:43:07.439 --> 1:43:11.559 bands and how we think they're constitutional. So I'm sure 1:43:11.840 --> 1:43:16.160 like I can I can speak a little to this, 1:43:16.400 --> 1:43:22.120 but yeah, I think, um, you know, maybe getting getting 1:43:22.240 --> 1:43:24.760 one of the criminal defense attorneys to talk if they 1:43:24.840 --> 1:43:29.320 can about the criminal case might be more helpful for sure. Yeah, 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:32.720 maybe can you explain this in general terms what a 1:43:32.760 --> 1:43:35.800 felony would mean for someone living in North Carolina in 1:43:36.000 --> 1:43:41.559 terms of just how would affect their life going forward? Yeah, 1:43:41.760 --> 1:43:49.640 so there's there's a lot I think, you know, um, right, 1:43:49.720 --> 1:43:52.000 I'm not a criminal lawyer, but let me just think 1:43:52.040 --> 1:43:57.559 of a few things. Uh, you know, having a felony 1:43:57.720 --> 1:44:04.280 on your criminal record just on its own, nobody nobody 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:08.640 wants a criminal record in a country and state that 1:44:09.080 --> 1:44:15.439 is still looking and you know, allowing background checks for 1:44:15.760 --> 1:44:19.839 certain jobs and having to explain that in any context 1:44:19.960 --> 1:44:21.840 like I will just you know, you know, let me 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:26.760 just talk from my own experience where I've whenever I 1:44:26.880 --> 1:44:29.280 am getting admitted to a bar. I've moved a couple 1:44:29.320 --> 1:44:32.200 of times in the past few years and had to 1:44:32.360 --> 1:44:38.160 deal with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that 1:44:38.400 --> 1:44:43.880 state's bar. There's several intrusive questions and many of those 1:44:44.520 --> 1:44:48.880 involved like what kind of what your background is, and 1:44:49.320 --> 1:44:53.320 that means what your criminal background is, Like we have 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:58.000 to do like I have gone through the moral character 1:44:58.200 --> 1:45:03.439 fitness tests for stage now, and um, it's never fun. 1:45:03.840 --> 1:45:06.960 It's you know, as someone who is privileged and does 1:45:07.040 --> 1:45:09.479 not have a criminal history background, it's not fun for 1:45:09.640 --> 1:45:14.240 me because I like the number of questions they ask you. 1:45:14.400 --> 1:45:18.960 It's like you really like you know, have to dig 1:45:19.080 --> 1:45:25.040 back into the past, like your whole life, Like they 1:45:25.080 --> 1:45:27.519 ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in 1:45:28.040 --> 1:45:30.160 the past fifteen years and if you get it wrong, 1:45:30.360 --> 1:45:33.840 you're lying. So you're okay, I'm going out unattention. But 1:45:34.000 --> 1:45:38.200 the point is, like any any sort of certification or 1:45:38.520 --> 1:45:43.240 job or UM new opportunity that is that is something 1:45:43.840 --> 1:45:48.240 a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered 1:45:48.360 --> 1:45:54.080 and oftentimes in in a negative way and can result 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:59.799 in people not getting jobs. UM. It's I think Sarah 1:46:00.160 --> 1:46:04.960 and like other Saharan tips maybe can explain more about 1:46:05.040 --> 1:46:07.479 like what the consequences would be like if you've had 1:46:07.600 --> 1:46:11.879 conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background 1:46:11.960 --> 1:46:16.000 in immigrants race work, and I know that if any 1:46:16.160 --> 1:46:21.439 any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing 1:46:21.560 --> 1:46:25.599 can be used by UM, can be used by ICE, 1:46:25.760 --> 1:46:29.760 can be used by USBIS to deny you immigration privileges 1:46:29.880 --> 1:46:33.720 and and UM and to deport you, to detain you 1:46:34.160 --> 1:46:40.960 before they deport you and UM. So you know, beyond that, 1:46:41.560 --> 1:46:45.759 like having to have this hang over your head where 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:52.080 the the process is not short, it's not easy, is 1:46:52.280 --> 1:46:58.200 mentally taxing and UM it's honestly degrading to go through 1:46:58.479 --> 1:47:03.400 our criminal legals them and it's decorating for everyone UM 1:47:05.800 --> 1:47:09.000 and and I mean, that's that's all I can say 1:47:09.040 --> 1:47:13.679 of like someone, um who does like general civil rights work. 1:47:13.800 --> 1:47:17.360 But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense 1:47:17.479 --> 1:47:21.400 work and in this all the time, I'm sure they're 1:47:21.680 --> 1:47:25.360 they're you know, can paint a better picture of how 1:47:25.600 --> 1:47:29.080 dark that that processes and how dark it can be 1:47:29.240 --> 1:47:33.120 to have that on um a record. I think another 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:37.040 thing with this is, um about Okay, I'm not a lawyer. 1:47:37.120 --> 1:47:41.280 I'm also not like your lawyer, legal advice, eta, et cetera. UM, 1:47:42.040 --> 1:47:44.400 but I'm pretty sure the way it works in North 1:47:44.439 --> 1:47:46.240 Carolina is that if you if if you have a 1:47:46.280 --> 1:47:48.760 felony conviction, you can't vote until you serve out the 1:47:49.160 --> 1:47:55.680 time Jesus. So yeah, like in country. Yeah, yeah, so 1:47:55.920 --> 1:47:59.240 that's that's another thing. And um, I'm fairly muted in 1:47:59.360 --> 1:48:02.320 North Carolina and I moved here in March, so almost 1:48:02.400 --> 1:48:05.680 a year but not quite so. But I do know 1:48:06.000 --> 1:48:08.960 that the hoops that you have to jump through just 1:48:09.160 --> 1:48:12.080 to vote are a lot more than other states that 1:48:12.120 --> 1:48:16.400 I've lived in. And you know, of course that is 1:48:18.040 --> 1:48:21.080 that is also another thing done on purpose to silence 1:48:21.160 --> 1:48:26.000 certain voices. Yeah, that's dark and certainly like you'll lose 1:48:26.080 --> 1:48:28.320 your Second Amendment right, So be jobs you can't do. 1:48:29.040 --> 1:48:32.240 There will be things that you have access to, like, yeah, 1:48:32.360 --> 1:48:37.040 your rights will go away potentially forever, which is bad 1:48:37.080 --> 1:48:38.640 when you're just trying to help some people who need 1:48:38.720 --> 1:48:42.479 to help. It's pretty unconstable. Yeah, I think that's the 1:48:42.600 --> 1:48:46.400 other like really wild thing about all of this is 1:48:46.479 --> 1:48:50.240 like a lot the folks that are, you know, being 1:48:50.360 --> 1:48:54.240 banned on, being targeted on this way are providing really 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:59.559 important services in a way that the city haven't been 1:48:59.600 --> 1:49:04.640 able to and hasn't and it's filling in this this 1:49:06.000 --> 1:49:09.840 really important role of like making sure that folks stay 1:49:09.880 --> 1:49:15.680 alive and have support and are fed and clothes and um, 1:49:16.800 --> 1:49:22.280 it's unfortunate to have that taken a way like being 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:25.560 banned from a park means being banned from one of 1:49:25.600 --> 1:49:29.240 the few spaces that our clients had to do this 1:49:29.400 --> 1:49:32.600 work and where they were able to distribute food and 1:49:33.680 --> 1:49:38.240 other aid to folks who don't have a home. And 1:49:38.560 --> 1:49:42.720 it's just it's wild that that kind of action is 1:49:42.760 --> 1:49:47.120 being taken when when we know that this is a 1:49:47.200 --> 1:49:52.479 crisis that the city is just not addressing. Yeah, they're 1:49:52.520 --> 1:49:55.040 like taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather 1:49:55.080 --> 1:50:00.400 than the crisis itself, which is yeah, very sad. So 1:50:00.760 --> 1:50:02.439 what stage is you are? I know you have to 1:50:02.520 --> 1:50:05.120 go in a second here, what stage is your lucky 1:50:05.160 --> 1:50:07.720 sabco you with challenging the park ban? How has that? 1:50:07.840 --> 1:50:11.160 How's that gone for you? So so far? We've spent 1:50:11.520 --> 1:50:14.720 a demand letter to the city. The city have responded 1:50:14.800 --> 1:50:20.120 to that letter with UM right now kind of wishywashie 1:50:20.160 --> 1:50:25.280 commitments of like reviewing the policy and UM. While while 1:50:25.280 --> 1:50:27.840 I think that's a great first step, I do think 1:50:27.920 --> 1:50:31.720 the city needs to commit to doing more and UM 1:50:32.200 --> 1:50:36.519 to commit to retracting the bands for all of our 1:50:36.600 --> 1:50:41.200 clients and potentially others who have been affected by this policy. 1:50:42.200 --> 1:50:46.240 They also need to change the policy. Like reviewing the policy, 1:50:47.080 --> 1:50:50.880 that's a great first step, but you know, I want 1:50:50.880 --> 1:50:53.479 to see, like what are the things that they are 1:50:53.560 --> 1:50:56.840 building in to make sure that folks are getting proper notice, 1:50:57.439 --> 1:51:01.400 that this policy isn't being abused and used by UM 1:51:02.200 --> 1:51:06.160 actual police department others in an unfair way, and that 1:51:06.320 --> 1:51:11.160 there's like you know, basic standards of like when the 1:51:11.280 --> 1:51:14.879 policy can be instituted, Like is there a conviction involved 1:51:14.920 --> 1:51:18.519 and what are the convictions? Like doesn't make sense to 1:51:18.640 --> 1:51:23.560 then someone from a park for I don't know, like 1:51:26.400 --> 1:51:35.519 I'm trying to think of like something, um felony, literate. Yeah, 1:51:35.600 --> 1:51:41.080 it's it is bizarre. And I think, like, you know, 1:51:41.960 --> 1:51:48.040 historically park bends from what I know, is like they've 1:51:48.080 --> 1:51:51.960 been used against like people who have committed like sexual 1:51:52.080 --> 1:51:58.040 offenses and um, and so it's kind of it's kind 1:51:58.080 --> 1:52:01.519 of out of lust field to and and I'll just 1:52:01.680 --> 1:52:04.760 say this, that's a city like in their response, they 1:52:04.840 --> 1:52:09.200 cited to one of the cases that are two cases 1:52:09.360 --> 1:52:17.200 unsolved sexual offenders who are banned from parks, which you know, yeah, 1:52:18.040 --> 1:52:23.640 some peaceful demonstrators who provided aids to folks who are unhoused. 1:52:23.800 --> 1:52:29.240 So you know, it's it's not really there. The comparison 1:52:29.400 --> 1:52:31.800 is not there. And I think I hope the city 1:52:31.880 --> 1:52:36.400 can be honest and um if they are not willing 1:52:36.439 --> 1:52:39.760 to put the network and to take some of um, 1:52:39.920 --> 1:52:43.080 do the actions that I've laid out. I do think 1:52:43.320 --> 1:52:47.680 that we will continue to challenge these park bands and um, 1:52:48.280 --> 1:52:51.920 you know, will continue to prepare to file suit if 1:52:52.000 --> 1:52:55.560 that's necessary, great, And how can people follow along with 1:52:55.640 --> 1:52:57.160 that or if they want to sort of donate or 1:52:57.160 --> 1:52:59.639 support it, is there a place they can do that. UM. 1:53:00.240 --> 1:53:04.479 You know, our website UM is a great space to 1:53:05.080 --> 1:53:09.840 our website. I think our socials like Twitter, UM and Instagram, 1:53:10.000 --> 1:53:12.960 like our comms team is amazing and they update on 1:53:13.160 --> 1:53:17.800 our work frequently and often and UM and we try 1:53:17.880 --> 1:53:23.120 to we try to provide updates there. But also UM 1:53:23.880 --> 1:53:26.960 kind of engage with our work and what it means 1:53:27.320 --> 1:53:34.479 broadly for UM books across North Carolina and across the US. Yeah. Great, 1:53:34.479 --> 1:53:36.960 And that's just a CLU North Carolina. There would be 1:53:37.040 --> 1:53:46.479 the socials. I shouldn't know that. That's fine of UM. 1:53:46.600 --> 1:53:49.680 So it's a CLU of North Carolina dot org. And 1:53:49.920 --> 1:53:52.200 if you go to our website you'll find our socials 1:53:52.320 --> 1:53:56.280 that it's probably a very cho Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank 1:53:56.320 --> 1:53:58.160 you so much for giving us some of your time. 1:53:58.520 --> 1:54:01.519 Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, that's great, Thank you. 1:54:18.000 --> 1:54:21.040 Welcome back, Dick had happened here? Once again the folks 1:54:21.080 --> 1:54:23.559 from It's Going Down are taking over the show as 1:54:23.640 --> 1:54:26.640 today we do a deep dive into how autonomous organizers 1:54:26.680 --> 1:54:29.559 are pushing back against a wave of far right attacks 1:54:29.920 --> 1:54:33.720 on reproductive freedom and autonomy across the United States. A 1:54:33.880 --> 1:54:37.160 note to our listeners, this episode will include discussion on 1:54:37.360 --> 1:54:41.040 both sexual and far right violence. I'm your host, Mike Andrews. 1:54:41.360 --> 1:54:44.960 Let's get into it. In May of twenty twenty two, 1:54:45.320 --> 1:54:48.480 Politico first reported on the historic league from the Supreme 1:54:48.600 --> 1:54:52.200 Court about the overturning of Roe versus Wade, the landmark 1:54:52.400 --> 1:54:55.879 nineteen seventy three decision, which ruled under the Fourteenth Amendment, 1:54:56.000 --> 1:54:59.280 that a pregnant person has the right to privacy, including 1:54:59.360 --> 1:55:02.520 the liberty to abort their fetus. In June of twenty 1:55:02.640 --> 1:55:06.120 twenty two, the Dab's Decisions struck down Row, ruling that 1:55:06.200 --> 1:55:09.320 the Constitution does not guarantee a person the right to 1:55:09.360 --> 1:55:13.080 an abortion, triggering a wave of state governments rolling back 1:55:13.160 --> 1:55:16.400 abortion rights in access for many. However, the fall of 1:55:16.520 --> 1:55:20.000 Row only further cemented a lack of access to reproductive 1:55:20.040 --> 1:55:23.280 healthcare has already been the norm for millions. As The 1:55:23.440 --> 1:55:26.880 Hill wrote, quote as of twenty twenty, six states had 1:55:26.920 --> 1:55:30.160 only one abortion clinic each, and eighty nine percent of 1:55:30.240 --> 1:55:33.720 America's counties had no abortion clinic at all, the cumulative 1:55:33.720 --> 1:55:38.000 effect of decades of restrictions authored by anti abortion lawmakers. 1:55:38.440 --> 1:55:40.800 This is not to say that things haven't gotten worse. 1:55:41.120 --> 1:55:43.720 They have in the months following the Dabbs decision. In 1:55:43.880 --> 1:55:46.760 states like Ohio, where access has been attacked, a rape 1:55:46.840 --> 1:55:49.320 survivor was forced to travel out of state to find 1:55:49.320 --> 1:55:53.680 an abortion, while local politicians, including the state's Republican Attorney general, 1:55:53.800 --> 1:55:57.040 claimed on Fox News that the story was totally fabricated. 1:55:57.240 --> 1:56:00.280 In other instances, people in Ohio have been denied care 1:56:00.440 --> 1:56:04.839 even though they face potentially life threatening complications. In Texas, 1:56:05.160 --> 1:56:08.000 one woman nearly died due to sepsis because she was 1:56:08.040 --> 1:56:12.000 initially barred access to an abortion by doctors. And these 1:56:12.080 --> 1:56:14.440 are only some of the stories that have made headlines. 1:56:14.760 --> 1:56:18.120 The deeper impact on this countrywide attack and reproductive health 1:56:18.320 --> 1:56:21.040 has hit low income and communities of color the hardest. 1:56:21.360 --> 1:56:24.600 A recent study from the University of San Francisco found 1:56:24.640 --> 1:56:27.600 that quote a third of American women of reproductive age 1:56:27.720 --> 1:56:31.400 now face excessive travel times to obtain an abortion, while 1:56:31.480 --> 1:56:33.960 twice as many are being forced to travel more than 1:56:34.000 --> 1:56:37.760 an hour to reach an abortion provider. In short, attacks 1:56:37.800 --> 1:56:41.160 on abortion, coupled with the already exploding wealth gap, lack 1:56:41.240 --> 1:56:44.600 of access to healthcare, the rising cost of living, and 1:56:44.760 --> 1:56:49.440 the continuing COVID nineteen pandemic, will only expand existing in equalities, 1:56:49.800 --> 1:56:52.680 especially for people of color, the disabled, and queer and 1:56:52.800 --> 1:56:56.280 trans folks in particular. On the legal front, some states 1:56:56.320 --> 1:56:59.640 have pushed to expand abortion access, and many are challenging 1:57:00.080 --> 1:57:04.000 attacks in the courtroom. Minnesota, for instance, most recently became 1:57:04.080 --> 1:57:07.080 the first state to enshrine abortion is a right. Meanwhile, 1:57:07.360 --> 1:57:11.200 many continue to donate to abortion funds, and nonprofits like 1:57:11.280 --> 1:57:14.680 Planned Parenthood are even launching mobile clinics to provide care 1:57:14.920 --> 1:57:18.040 and areas hit the hardest due to recent bands. But 1:57:18.280 --> 1:57:21.120 as our first two guests, Beck's part of a clinic 1:57:21.240 --> 1:57:24.280 defense group in New York City. In ashe, an abortion 1:57:24.360 --> 1:57:28.800 doula in North Carolina, reported, many autonomous organizers aren't putting 1:57:28.840 --> 1:57:31.840 their faith in the courts, the cops, or the state. 1:57:32.640 --> 1:57:35.160 You know, living in New York City, abortion is legal, 1:57:35.280 --> 1:57:36.880 and it is legal before a row, and it's been 1:57:36.960 --> 1:57:40.360 legal after row. But that doesn't really necessarily mean anything 1:57:40.520 --> 1:57:42.520 kind of is what we've seen. So one of the 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:44.520 things that we've seen is we've seen on anti abortion 1:57:44.600 --> 1:57:48.200 protesters and activists coming up from red states to target 1:57:48.280 --> 1:57:51.240 blue states now, and so we've definitely seen their presence 1:57:51.280 --> 1:57:54.320 increasing outside of the clinic that we defend, and SOHO 1:57:54.440 --> 1:57:56.560 in Manhattan and so that's I would say is one 1:57:56.560 --> 1:57:58.200 of the biggest things that we've seen is that they 1:57:58.320 --> 1:58:01.360 really are targeting Blue states, are targeting New York City. 1:58:01.440 --> 1:58:04.440 There I'm actively trying to recruit people to come to 1:58:04.520 --> 1:58:06.320 New York City. Is I think the biggest thing that 1:58:06.360 --> 1:58:08.560 we've seen, and that also in New York City we've 1:58:08.600 --> 1:58:12.160 been struggling a lot with a really escalatory police presence 1:58:12.480 --> 1:58:15.120 at our clinics. So that's the other thing that we're 1:58:15.120 --> 1:58:17.360 definitely really really struggling with is the response of the 1:58:17.440 --> 1:58:21.080 state after doubs. So the first thing that I want 1:58:21.120 --> 1:58:25.200 folks to know is that people abortion has people who 1:58:25.280 --> 1:58:28.160 might have abortions. Where I am in time and space, 1:58:28.720 --> 1:58:32.000 they have always already been navigating some of these post 1:58:32.160 --> 1:58:34.720 roar realities that a lot of folks are just getting 1:58:34.800 --> 1:58:38.000 hip to, like after that Fateful Friday in June last year. 1:58:38.880 --> 1:58:41.480 And so I want to name here that we've always 1:58:41.560 --> 1:58:44.400 had a seventy two hour waiting period in North Carolina, 1:58:44.760 --> 1:58:47.280 which is one of the longest waiting periods in the country. 1:58:47.960 --> 1:58:50.520 And there's a slew of other things that we find 1:58:50.640 --> 1:58:55.240 both hostile and restrictive, and I'm using those words to 1:58:55.400 --> 1:58:59.800 describe a situation, an ongoing situation, because these are the 1:58:59.880 --> 1:59:04.080 words that are being used to describe North Carolina now 1:59:04.600 --> 1:59:08.040 as we're seeing an influx of folks coming to North Carolina. 1:59:08.400 --> 1:59:10.480 So I'm saying that for the folks who live here 1:59:10.520 --> 1:59:14.680 always already like they've been dealing with a restrictive, hostile climate. 1:59:15.640 --> 1:59:18.680 Becks just shared a little bit about like the presence 1:59:18.720 --> 1:59:22.720 of anti abortion protesters, so we've always been dealing with that. 1:59:23.360 --> 1:59:26.840 In twenty eighteen, the abortion clinic that I had two 1:59:26.880 --> 1:59:30.840 abortions at in my life, they saw the most anti 1:59:30.920 --> 1:59:34.360 abortion protesters in the Southeast, and we continue to see this. 1:59:35.120 --> 1:59:38.760 We also continue to see as we see these anti 1:59:38.840 --> 1:59:42.640 abortion protesters right a police presence, and we know or 1:59:42.720 --> 1:59:45.760 I'm concerned about what that means for black folks having abortions, 1:59:46.040 --> 1:59:49.280 for people who are undocumented, and for people who otherwise 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:51.400 like don't want the police all up in their business. 1:59:52.120 --> 1:59:55.560 In addition to what's changed, since jobs are not change, right, 1:59:55.840 --> 1:59:59.000 but change, we have semen influx of folks coming to 1:59:59.120 --> 2:00:03.240 North Carolina from states where abortion is illegal or there 2:00:03.400 --> 2:00:08.160 are bands kind of early ingestation, and we're seeing those 2:00:08.240 --> 2:00:11.440 folks come to the clinics and access the services and 2:00:11.520 --> 2:00:14.480 the support networks that we have here in North Carolina. 2:00:14.960 --> 2:00:16.840 I think that one thing with the group that I 2:00:16.960 --> 2:00:18.960 work with called ad VIC for Abortion Rights, one thing 2:00:19.040 --> 2:00:21.120 that we've been working really hard on is not only 2:00:21.200 --> 2:00:23.440 talking about abortion, not only talking about you know, going 2:00:23.480 --> 2:00:26.320 beyond just legalizing it, but also really focusing on like 2:00:26.400 --> 2:00:29.920 our communities and building mutual aid networks, building repro justice networks, 2:00:30.000 --> 2:00:32.560 and also just working overall on like community defense. So 2:00:32.600 --> 2:00:35.320 we work with a lot of mutual aid organizations all 2:00:35.360 --> 2:00:37.360 over the city of New York. And that's one thing 2:00:37.440 --> 2:00:39.520 that we're doing, like Ash was saying, is we're focusing 2:00:39.560 --> 2:00:41.560 on you know, how do these people who are outside 2:00:41.560 --> 2:00:44.000 of our clinics are not only anti abortion, but they're 2:00:44.000 --> 2:00:46.840 also anti LGBTQ. They are fascist, That is something that 2:00:46.920 --> 2:00:49.400 we should be saying. They are also pro police. None. 2:00:49.480 --> 2:00:52.640 None of these things happen inside of a vacuum. They're 2:00:52.640 --> 2:00:54.720 all interconnected. And I think that that's one thing that 2:00:54.800 --> 2:00:56.880 we really really have to do is talk about how 2:00:56.920 --> 2:00:59.240 the issue of abortion bridge is out to so many 2:00:59.280 --> 2:01:02.040 other things, and we can't only fight one issue. We 2:01:02.160 --> 2:01:03.480 have to fight all of them. But we also have 2:01:03.600 --> 2:01:05.720 to fight the root of where these things are coming from, 2:01:05.760 --> 2:01:08.440 and they're coming from this mass conservative movement that's been 2:01:08.520 --> 2:01:10.840 being built since the nineteen seventies, you know, groups like 2:01:10.960 --> 2:01:14.200 Focus on the Family, like the Federalist Society. These groups 2:01:14.280 --> 2:01:17.160 have so much influence in our society, and we need 2:01:17.240 --> 2:01:19.400 to be going after all of it. We can't only 2:01:19.480 --> 2:01:22.800 be going after you know, one tiny, you know, sector 2:01:22.920 --> 2:01:25.360 of the massive problem, because like Ash said, it is 2:01:25.440 --> 2:01:30.280 all interconnected. Here, I'm thinking about like some political education 2:01:30.360 --> 2:01:34.200 that needs to happen, like and that is the framework 2:01:34.400 --> 2:01:38.280 and the theories of reproductive Justice. I know that they 2:01:38.400 --> 2:01:41.960 recognize so many it recognizes so many things. But one 2:01:42.000 --> 2:01:44.800 of the things that grounds me that it recognizes that 2:01:45.040 --> 2:01:48.400 r J recognizes is that dismantling white supremacy is key 2:01:48.480 --> 2:01:53.840 to achieving reproductive justice. It also says, it posits that 2:01:54.000 --> 2:01:57.960 we live interconnected lives and not single issue lives. And 2:01:58.040 --> 2:02:01.720 it also for me yields that, like, we can't rely 2:02:01.840 --> 2:02:05.040 on the state to provide what we need. I'm seeing 2:02:05.440 --> 2:02:09.720 abortion doulas, clinic escorts, abortion funds, and other organizers and 2:02:09.920 --> 2:02:13.960 organizations really come together to support people having abortions and 2:02:14.120 --> 2:02:17.920 resist criminalization and state violence right now, and we need 2:02:18.000 --> 2:02:20.440 to see more of that. You know, you talk about 2:02:20.520 --> 2:02:23.440 pro choice, I think it's so whack, like the logics 2:02:23.480 --> 2:02:26.080 of pro choice. We need to go further beyond the 2:02:26.160 --> 2:02:29.440 logics of pro choice and understand that RJ says that 2:02:29.560 --> 2:02:34.280 there is no choice without access. And furthermore, RJ posits 2:02:34.320 --> 2:02:39.200 that the key to controlling entire communities is to controlling bodies. 2:02:39.520 --> 2:02:41.640 So if they're coming for the trans people on their 2:02:41.840 --> 2:02:45.000 HRT and their access to gender affirming and medical care, 2:02:45.240 --> 2:02:47.840 then they're gonna come for everyone else. Then they're gonna 2:02:47.880 --> 2:02:50.760 come for the abortion hovers. They've been coming for the 2:02:50.840 --> 2:02:54.560 poor people. I think that, like again, when we go 2:02:54.680 --> 2:02:58.640 back to that reproductive justice framework, we can begin to 2:02:59.160 --> 2:03:01.880 like make these connections. And I'm also saying this as 2:03:01.920 --> 2:03:05.440 an organizer, like reproductive justice is my lane, but so 2:03:05.560 --> 2:03:09.360 as like environmental justice and SOS racial justice, and I'm 2:03:09.440 --> 2:03:12.120 on the front lines of different movements, and I go 2:03:12.320 --> 2:03:17.160 back to this framework because it acknowledges that, like black 2:03:17.240 --> 2:03:20.040 people need an end to anti black racism, and we 2:03:20.120 --> 2:03:22.440 need an end to the police and clean fucking water. 2:03:22.640 --> 2:03:25.480 Right now, I don't know of a framework that says that, 2:03:25.640 --> 2:03:28.200 like we ought to demand all of those things right 2:03:28.280 --> 2:03:31.400 fucking now, and that we actually can't live self determined 2:03:31.440 --> 2:03:34.440 lives without all of that shit. And so I'm ready 2:03:34.480 --> 2:03:37.200 to talk about r J like I'm ready to do 2:03:37.360 --> 2:03:40.960 that political education. I think it's ongoing work and right like, 2:03:41.800 --> 2:03:43.800 you don't have to be an abortion dou lah or 2:03:43.880 --> 2:03:46.680 a frontline organizer to help someone get to their appointment, 2:03:47.040 --> 2:03:50.960 to fund an abortion, to affirm someone's decision and support 2:03:51.000 --> 2:03:53.560 their decision to have an abortion, and so we really 2:03:53.680 --> 2:03:56.960 need that, like, we need that vibe right now. We 2:03:57.040 --> 2:03:59.080 need people to show up that way. I think that 2:03:59.160 --> 2:04:01.520 my biggest frustrate with Democrats is they've been telling us 2:04:01.560 --> 2:04:03.520 for years, like, oh, you know, vote for us, vote 2:04:03.520 --> 2:04:05.160 for us. They've been fundraising off of the issue of 2:04:05.160 --> 2:04:08.200 abortion for decades now. They have done absolutely nothing, And 2:04:08.280 --> 2:04:10.160 I think that what they've really done is they've really 2:04:10.640 --> 2:04:13.680 made us, made us, as in the general like American 2:04:13.720 --> 2:04:16.800 populace feel as though voting is the only way that 2:04:16.880 --> 2:04:18.600 we can change things, and that voting is the only 2:04:18.680 --> 2:04:21.240 way that we can like show our impact and like 2:04:21.360 --> 2:04:24.200 help our communities, when in reality, it isn't. It's going 2:04:24.240 --> 2:04:26.400 out onto the streets. It's also you know, doing abortion 2:04:26.440 --> 2:04:29.560 do the work. It's also you know, going out defunding clinics. 2:04:29.760 --> 2:04:31.560 It's doing all of this work. And we don't need 2:04:31.600 --> 2:04:33.480 the Democrats to do that. And what we need to 2:04:33.560 --> 2:04:35.280 be doing is we need to be talking about the 2:04:35.360 --> 2:04:37.560 state and how we can go beyond the state. I 2:04:37.680 --> 2:04:40.520 also want to say here, like fuck Row. Like Row 2:04:41.600 --> 2:04:46.240 is the kind of legal infrastructure that made abortion possible. 2:04:46.360 --> 2:04:50.040 But it also made it possible for like both the Democrats, 2:04:50.080 --> 2:04:53.640 the Republicans, the Christian Evangelicals, anyone who was checking for it, 2:04:53.920 --> 2:04:56.920 to take abortion away. So like fuck Row. It also 2:04:57.040 --> 2:05:00.240 gave us the trimester framework, which is like really black, 2:05:00.480 --> 2:05:03.040 and it also kind of made it more possible for 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:05.839 the states and the federal government to put in bands 2:05:05.960 --> 2:05:09.080 and restrictions on abortion. That's something that we need to 2:05:09.120 --> 2:05:12.440 get clear about as well as we fight to decriminalize 2:05:12.520 --> 2:05:16.520 and not legislate further abortion. Stay with us, it could 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:19.520 happen here. We'll return after these words from our sponsors. 2:05:22.080 --> 2:05:26.120 On July twenty seventh, nineteen ninety six, Eric Rudoff set 2:05:26.120 --> 2:05:29.200 off a nail bomb during the Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia. 2:05:29.640 --> 2:05:33.320 The explosion killed one person immediately, while over one hundred 2:05:33.400 --> 2:05:37.440 more were horrifically injured in the communicate. Claiming responsibility for 2:05:37.520 --> 2:05:43.000 the bombing, Rudolf denounced the Olympics, abortion, and LGBTQ rights 2:05:43.240 --> 2:05:46.120 with talking points that seemed ripped right out of Tucker 2:05:46.200 --> 2:05:51.080 Carlson's nightly news headlines. He wrote, the world converged upon 2:05:51.120 --> 2:05:55.000 Atlanta to celebrate the ideals of global socialism. The purpose 2:05:55.080 --> 2:05:59.760 of my attack the Washington government sanctioning of abortion on demand. 2:06:00.160 --> 2:06:03.720 Along with abortion, another assault upon the integrity of American 2:06:03.840 --> 2:06:08.680 society is the considered effort to legitimize the practice of homosexuality, 2:06:09.200 --> 2:06:14.320 whether it's gay marriage, homosexual adoption, hate crime laws including gays, 2:06:14.640 --> 2:06:19.000 or the attempt to introduce a homosexual normalizing curriculum into 2:06:19.080 --> 2:06:22.960 our schools. All of these efforts should be ruthlessly opposed. 2:06:23.280 --> 2:06:27.160 The existence of our culture depends on it. Rudolph would 2:06:27.160 --> 2:06:30.000 go on to carry out more deadly attacks against abortion 2:06:30.080 --> 2:06:33.960 clinics in a queer nightclub, releasing communications under the banner 2:06:34.080 --> 2:06:37.919 of the Army of God, a group which endorsed leaderless 2:06:38.040 --> 2:06:41.920 resistance and was linked to the white supremaci Christian identity movement, 2:06:42.040 --> 2:06:45.720 and the murder of multiple abortion providers. The Army of 2:06:45.840 --> 2:06:49.040 God was just one formation that grew out of Christian identity, 2:06:49.360 --> 2:06:52.400 a mix of white supremacy in Christianity, the preach that 2:06:52.560 --> 2:06:56.000 Jews were Satanic and people of color were subhuman and 2:06:56.120 --> 2:06:59.880 need to be destroyed in a racial holy war. Christian 2:07:00.000 --> 2:07:04.680 and inde adherents set up paramilitary compounds, Bible camps, radio stations, 2:07:04.720 --> 2:07:08.320 and churches from the Aryan Nations to the Covenant of 2:07:08.360 --> 2:07:10.400 the Sword in the Arm of the Lord, and they 2:07:10.480 --> 2:07:13.640 helped usher in a wave of homegrown terrorist groups such 2:07:13.680 --> 2:07:17.480 as The Order and individuals like Timothy Vey carried out 2:07:17.520 --> 2:07:21.720 the Oklahoma City bombing. Meanwhile, above ground groups like Operation 2:07:21.840 --> 2:07:26.080 Rescue cheered on the violence against abortion providers while organizing 2:07:26.240 --> 2:07:29.440 mass protests at clinics with the aim of shutting them down. 2:07:29.800 --> 2:07:33.040 In twenty fifteen, when a gunman killed three people in 2:07:33.080 --> 2:07:35.760 a mass shooting at a clinic in Colorado Springs, the 2:07:35.920 --> 2:07:39.200 far right anti abortion movement had carried out eight murders, 2:07:39.520 --> 2:07:43.280 seventeen attempted murders, forty two bombings in one hundred and 2:07:43.320 --> 2:07:47.320 eighty six arsons, all targeted against abortion clinics and providers. 2:07:47.720 --> 2:07:50.080 Wanted to know more about the history of far attacks 2:07:50.160 --> 2:07:53.120 on abortion access if they were indeed rising in the 2:07:53.200 --> 2:07:56.320 current post stops period, We sat down with Bullets of 2:07:56.400 --> 2:08:01.320 Fowler of the National Abortion Federation. Unfortunately, since abortion was 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:05.680 legalized with the ROVERSUS Weight decision, there has been a 2:08:05.800 --> 2:08:11.560 really coordinated campaign of harassment and violence to target abortion 2:08:11.600 --> 2:08:15.320 providers and try to stop access to legal abortion. And 2:08:16.320 --> 2:08:20.000 we've been tracking this since the late seventies. There have 2:08:20.360 --> 2:08:24.919 been a number of escalating events, everything from clinic protests 2:08:24.920 --> 2:08:27.520 and clinic blockades all the way up to arsons and 2:08:27.760 --> 2:08:31.040 murders of providers just because they do this work. So 2:08:31.880 --> 2:08:35.200 when we talk about this, it's very real. It's a 2:08:35.560 --> 2:08:39.879 very real threat, and it is really terrorism that's happening 2:08:40.480 --> 2:08:44.480 by a coordinated group of people and individuals who really 2:08:44.680 --> 2:08:48.240 are aimed at stopping any access to legal abortion care. 2:08:48.760 --> 2:08:51.640 So we definitely and have seen for a long time 2:08:52.160 --> 2:08:55.560 that there is an overlap between the people that target 2:08:55.600 --> 2:08:58.680 abortion providers and the people that are involved in other 2:08:58.800 --> 2:09:04.560 types of violent streamist movements, including white nationalists. We've known 2:09:04.640 --> 2:09:07.880 that for a long time. It's existed many years. In fact, 2:09:08.080 --> 2:09:12.560 in the eighties, the KKK began creating one imposters listing 2:09:12.640 --> 2:09:16.640 the personal information of abortion providers, and the first provider 2:09:16.680 --> 2:09:18.880 who was murdered, doctor David Gunn, who was murdered in 2:09:18.960 --> 2:09:22.320 nineteen ninety three, was murdered by someone who was a 2:09:22.360 --> 2:09:25.920 white supremacist who had been mentored by someone who was 2:09:25.960 --> 2:09:30.960 a former KKK member. And so we've seen the overlap 2:09:31.080 --> 2:09:34.760 of these groups, and in the last couple of years, 2:09:34.920 --> 2:09:38.960 we've seen that overlap be more coordinated and more public. 2:09:39.360 --> 2:09:42.920 So on January sixth, at the insurrection, a lot of 2:09:42.960 --> 2:09:46.800 our members were watching on TV and recognized people because 2:09:46.840 --> 2:09:49.360 they were the same people that protest at their clinics. 2:09:49.840 --> 2:09:52.720 In fact, providers that even noted that day of pulling 2:09:52.760 --> 2:09:55.200 in the parking lot and not seeing their usual protesters 2:09:55.240 --> 2:09:57.480 and wondering what was going on because they saw less 2:09:57.520 --> 2:09:59.960 people outside of clinics, And we later found out it's 2:10:00.000 --> 2:10:03.840 because many of them were at the capitol. And you know, 2:10:03.960 --> 2:10:06.400 a number of people who are active in the anti 2:10:06.440 --> 2:10:10.839 abortion movement have boasted about being at the insurrection, posted 2:10:10.960 --> 2:10:14.080 video and pictures of themselves at the insurrection, and so 2:10:14.280 --> 2:10:16.760 it's it's very clear to us and we very much 2:10:16.880 --> 2:10:21.160 see that overlap. We also see more more of these 2:10:21.320 --> 2:10:24.600 right wing groups actually showing up and participating at anti 2:10:24.680 --> 2:10:28.080 abortion events, so attending some of the marches around the 2:10:28.160 --> 2:10:30.640 country in a more visible way than we've seen in 2:10:30.720 --> 2:10:34.640 the past. Sometimes these right wing groups will do quote 2:10:34.720 --> 2:10:37.840 unquote security for the anti abortion movement, So when they 2:10:37.920 --> 2:10:41.720 have people who are speaking or they're holding large events 2:10:41.760 --> 2:10:47.960 to target providers, they'll get security assistance from white nationalist groups. 2:10:48.360 --> 2:10:51.720 And so, you know, it's particularly disturbing to see. It 2:10:52.000 --> 2:10:56.320 doesn't surprise us because we've been We've known that there's 2:10:56.360 --> 2:10:58.560 an overlap in these groups for a really long time. 2:10:59.520 --> 2:11:02.600 But as we've seen in recent years, as people seem 2:11:02.680 --> 2:11:06.280 to be more okay being more visible about their membership 2:11:06.320 --> 2:11:10.680 in these groups or more vocal about their hate, we're 2:11:10.720 --> 2:11:13.560 seeing it more publicly. The anti abortion movement is not 2:11:13.640 --> 2:11:17.120 doing anything to distance themselves from these groups. So since 2:11:17.280 --> 2:11:21.640 the leak happened last May, we immediately saw an increase 2:11:22.000 --> 2:11:27.200 in harassment and online posts that were threatening toward abortion providers. 2:11:27.560 --> 2:11:30.520 Even though we got a preview of the decision and 2:11:30.800 --> 2:11:33.560 we knew what was coming and that it would lead 2:11:33.600 --> 2:11:36.840 to clinics closing, that wasn't enough for some people. We 2:11:36.920 --> 2:11:39.760 saw calls for people to go and burn clinics or 2:11:39.840 --> 2:11:41.560 go and take matters into their own hands and not 2:11:41.720 --> 2:11:43.800 wait for the decision to go and try and stop 2:11:43.880 --> 2:11:48.240 abortions from being provided that moment, and so we track 2:11:49.280 --> 2:11:52.160 those types of online posts. We saw a real spike 2:11:52.440 --> 2:11:55.800 in May and June around the decision, and we also 2:11:55.920 --> 2:11:59.680 started immediately hearing from our member clinics that they were 2:11:59.720 --> 2:12:02.920 seeing increase in protesters and increase in threats, and it 2:12:03.000 --> 2:12:06.440 increase in the intensity and hostility of those activities, so 2:12:07.080 --> 2:12:11.840 more really aggressive protesters that were touching patients and staff, 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:15.880 yelling at patients and staff, photographing patients and staff, and 2:12:16.320 --> 2:12:18.840 you know, since the decision, we have seen a number 2:12:18.880 --> 2:12:22.280 of clinics close in places that are considered more hostile 2:12:22.320 --> 2:12:26.200 to abortion rights. But we know from our past experience 2:12:26.320 --> 2:12:29.920 that when a clinic closes, the protesters don't just give 2:12:30.000 --> 2:12:33.680 up and go home. In many cases, anti abortion individuals 2:12:33.760 --> 2:12:36.840 will travel the same paths the patients are traveling, and 2:12:36.960 --> 2:12:39.680 they will go to other states where abortion remains successible 2:12:39.720 --> 2:12:42.000 and target the clinics there. So we are seeing an 2:12:42.080 --> 2:12:45.800 increase in activity in the places where abortion is remaining 2:12:45.960 --> 2:12:48.600 legal and where patients are going to get care. And 2:12:48.720 --> 2:12:51.240 we're still you know, we're just now collecting the numbers 2:12:51.280 --> 2:12:53.520 for twenty twenty two, so we don't we don't have 2:12:53.680 --> 2:12:57.280 those for a little bit, but we do know anecdotally 2:12:57.360 --> 2:12:59.240 and what we're hearing from members and what we're seeing 2:12:59.280 --> 2:13:01.000 on the ground is that there is an increase in 2:13:01.080 --> 2:13:04.200 that activity. There have been a few arsons this year 2:13:04.560 --> 2:13:08.560 who are also seeing clinic invasions continue, and these are 2:13:09.320 --> 2:13:13.680 instances where people might pose as patients. In some cases, 2:13:13.720 --> 2:13:16.040 they go to a lot of work to try and 2:13:16.520 --> 2:13:19.720 infiltrate the clinic and find out about their practices for 2:13:19.840 --> 2:13:24.560 making appointments, and then they will pose as patients, make 2:13:24.720 --> 2:13:29.040 fake appointments and try to get into the clinic forcibly 2:13:29.160 --> 2:13:32.680 if they if they have to, and then once they're inside, 2:13:32.720 --> 2:13:36.520 they're harassing patients, they refuse to leave. In some cases 2:13:36.560 --> 2:13:41.640 they hand out flowers or seeing or yell. In California, 2:13:42.640 --> 2:13:46.000 they walked through the halls screaming the name of the doctor, 2:13:46.440 --> 2:13:48.440 ordering the doctor to come out and face them, and 2:13:48.480 --> 2:13:51.520 it was very traumatic for staff. They didn't know if 2:13:51.560 --> 2:13:53.520 this person was armed or what they were doing. And 2:13:53.960 --> 2:13:56.840 you know, they had patients in procedure rooms with them 2:13:56.960 --> 2:13:59.560 or in counseling rooms, and they were locking the door 2:13:59.600 --> 2:14:02.840 and shelf ring in place and was very frightening, and 2:14:03.000 --> 2:14:05.920 we continue to see these types of invasions happen across 2:14:05.960 --> 2:14:10.760 the country. Ironically, however, laws passed in the nineteen nineties 2:14:10.840 --> 2:14:14.240 designed to protect people seeking abortions and reproductive healthcare have 2:14:14.440 --> 2:14:17.320 now been weaponized against those who have been taking action 2:14:17.360 --> 2:14:20.120 in the wake of the Daub's decision, most notably under 2:14:20.160 --> 2:14:23.800 the banner of Jane's Revenge, a moniker used by anonymous 2:14:23.880 --> 2:14:26.960 activists taking action, usually in the former broken windows and 2:14:27.040 --> 2:14:31.760 graffiti against anti choice, crisis pregnancy centers and beyond. As 2:14:31.880 --> 2:14:35.440 Natasha Leonard wrote in the Intercept, Congress passed the Face 2:14:35.520 --> 2:14:38.960 Act in nineteen eighty four, allowing the assassinations and mass 2:14:39.040 --> 2:14:43.280 clinic blockades, making the physical obstruction of clinics a federal offense, 2:14:43.480 --> 2:14:46.000 as well as threats of force and violence against clinic 2:14:46.080 --> 2:14:48.600 workers and clinic property. In its thirty years on the 2:14:48.680 --> 2:14:51.800 books has been used sparingly. Now this law has been 2:14:51.880 --> 2:14:55.640 used to prosecute to reproductive rights activists who allegedly spray 2:14:55.680 --> 2:14:59.440 painted the outside walls of misleading and dangerous crisis pregnancy 2:14:59.520 --> 2:15:03.040 centers known as CPCs and now face up to twelve 2:15:03.160 --> 2:15:05.840 years in prison for the graffiti. This use of the 2:15:05.960 --> 2:15:08.920 Face Act against those fighting to protect reproductive freedom and 2:15:08.960 --> 2:15:12.560 autonomy by weaponizing laws supposedly aimed at those threatening it 2:15:13.080 --> 2:15:17.120 mirrors the numerous domestic terrorism charges lodged against forest defenders 2:15:17.160 --> 2:15:20.560 in Atlanta, made possible by a bill in twenty seventeen 2:15:20.800 --> 2:15:23.720 following the massacre of nine black parishioners by the white 2:15:23.800 --> 2:15:27.800 supremist Dylan Roof. Stay with us, it could happen here, 2:15:27.840 --> 2:15:32.480 will return after these words from our sponsors. As the 2:15:32.560 --> 2:15:35.120 culture war is deepened on the right and even mainstream 2:15:35.160 --> 2:15:39.160 GEOP leaders have embraced white nationalists talking points, many openly 2:15:39.280 --> 2:15:41.760 neo nazi and white supremist groups have come to see 2:15:41.840 --> 2:15:44.840 the anti choice movement as a lucrative recruiting ground and 2:15:44.920 --> 2:15:47.560 a point of engagement with the wider right wing base. 2:15:48.160 --> 2:15:50.880 Again we hear from clinic defender Becks in New York, 2:15:51.280 --> 2:15:54.920 an abortion doula ash in North Carolina. In our case 2:15:55.000 --> 2:15:57.120 in New York City, the group that we defend, the 2:15:57.160 --> 2:16:00.600 Clinic Front, is its Catholic group that gets an armed 2:16:00.720 --> 2:16:03.680 escort from the NYPD. So that's one thing that really 2:16:03.720 --> 2:16:05.440 really scares me. You know, when we talk about a 2:16:05.520 --> 2:16:08.280 far right is that the NYPD has been aiding these 2:16:08.360 --> 2:16:10.680 far right groups and getting them escorts for a very 2:16:10.760 --> 2:16:12.960 very long time. And so I think that kind of 2:16:13.040 --> 2:16:15.040 like goes to a lot of the fears that a 2:16:15.080 --> 2:16:16.480 lot of us have when it comes to this kind 2:16:16.520 --> 2:16:19.760 of collaboration and the changing face of anti abortion protesters. 2:16:20.240 --> 2:16:22.800 We already know down here that cops and clay go 2:16:23.000 --> 2:16:27.320 hand in hand, and unfortunately, like newly white radicalized I 2:16:27.360 --> 2:16:28.640 don't know if you can call them that, but like 2:16:28.800 --> 2:16:33.160 politicized white women who want to defend clinics, they saw 2:16:33.480 --> 2:16:36.600 they they realize these realities, like the cops are not 2:16:36.720 --> 2:16:40.000 here to defend you or people who want to have abortions, 2:16:41.120 --> 2:16:45.199 and we actually don't need the cops to have abortions 2:16:45.400 --> 2:16:49.000 and to make reproductive justice a real possibility in all 2:16:49.080 --> 2:16:52.280 of our lives. I'm thinking here also about like the 2:16:52.440 --> 2:16:58.160 need to decriminalize abortion and not legalize abortion again. As 2:16:58.160 --> 2:17:00.800 an abolitionist, as an abortion do and as someone who's 2:17:00.840 --> 2:17:04.920 had abortions, I'm making these connections and as a trans 2:17:05.000 --> 2:17:08.160 person right, I'm making these connections that like the folks 2:17:08.200 --> 2:17:11.880 who are standing outside of abortion clinics, the anti choice 2:17:11.920 --> 2:17:14.880 the anti abortion folks. These are the same people who 2:17:14.920 --> 2:17:18.039 are pro police people. These are the same people who 2:17:18.080 --> 2:17:20.560 are racist in our communities, who are classist, who are 2:17:20.560 --> 2:17:25.560 anti black, who are fascists, and furthermore, right like these 2:17:25.680 --> 2:17:28.280 people who stand outside of abortion clinics, they are the 2:17:28.400 --> 2:17:33.240 same people perpetuating these rhetorics that like gay people are groomers, 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:36.760 but also that like critical race theory, for examples, shouldn't 2:17:36.760 --> 2:17:39.920 be taught in school. I am making these connections and 2:17:40.000 --> 2:17:43.200 I'm also going back to that reproductive justice framework that 2:17:43.360 --> 2:17:45.960 reminds me that, like, what do we have to do 2:17:46.160 --> 2:17:48.600 now is that we have to fight together, and one 2:17:48.640 --> 2:17:51.440 of the ways we can do that is by making 2:17:51.520 --> 2:17:57.560 these connections. Right, like these people are Christian evangelicals, they 2:17:57.640 --> 2:18:01.280 are fascists. Explicitly, we need to say that, and it 2:18:01.520 --> 2:18:06.040 behooves all of us to really fight together along those lines. 2:18:07.320 --> 2:18:09.880 In the year since the attempted pro Trump coup on 2:18:10.000 --> 2:18:14.720 January six, neo Nazis, white supremacists, and Proud Boys have 2:18:14.920 --> 2:18:17.920 ramped up their presence at anti choice events. The neo 2:18:18.000 --> 2:18:21.000 Nazi group Patriot Front has shut up to march alongside 2:18:21.120 --> 2:18:24.439 various anti abortion groups, often to be bent with handshakes 2:18:24.480 --> 2:18:27.960 from anti abortion activists and police escorts to protect them 2:18:28.040 --> 2:18:31.840 from anti fascists. Several weeks ago, openly fascist groups took 2:18:31.920 --> 2:18:35.599 part in the yearly Walk for Life rally in San Francisco, California. 2:18:35.959 --> 2:18:38.400 US Thousands took to the city streets after being bust 2:18:38.480 --> 2:18:41.440 in from across the state. Marching alongside them were proud 2:18:41.480 --> 2:18:44.440 boys decked out in your uniforms and mass neo Nazis 2:18:44.520 --> 2:18:47.920 holding openly racist banners. Wanting to know more about this 2:18:48.080 --> 2:18:52.080 continued crossover, we spoke with anti fascist journalists Paschal Singh, 2:18:52.200 --> 2:18:55.520 based in southern California. In the wake of the reversal 2:18:55.560 --> 2:18:59.440 of Rovy Way, there was big spike in demonstrations from 2:18:59.480 --> 2:19:02.160 the right wing where they were targeting clinics, they were 2:19:02.200 --> 2:19:04.680 targeting any kind of school boards with any kind of 2:19:04.760 --> 2:19:08.800 reproductive health anything. They were doing it for several months 2:19:08.959 --> 2:19:13.560 in places like California where abortion is still provided and 2:19:13.760 --> 2:19:17.880 still accessible. That makes a lot of the anti abortion 2:19:18.040 --> 2:19:21.480 movement still feel like they're the victim of something, even 2:19:21.520 --> 2:19:24.560 though they just had this massive political victory, and at 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:28.960 least in southern California, I've noticed that they've continued to 2:19:29.240 --> 2:19:32.120 rally they've had some pretty large rallies, especially for the 2:19:32.879 --> 2:19:35.480 pro life thing that happened recently. We're cities around the country, 2:19:35.480 --> 2:19:40.680 including San Francisco, had some pretty alarmingly sized anti abortion rallies, 2:19:40.720 --> 2:19:42.920 and some of them, like in San Francisco, you had 2:19:43.040 --> 2:19:46.880 some of the more extremest elements, white supremacist elements showing 2:19:47.160 --> 2:19:52.959 up quite explicitly, quite proudly, and here in Southern California, 2:19:53.080 --> 2:19:55.960 I've seen that starting to pick up again. It's almost 2:19:56.120 --> 2:19:59.560 building off of the momentum from all these rallies, targeting 2:19:59.640 --> 2:20:03.800 drags shows, which have been excellent networking opportunities for different 2:20:03.879 --> 2:20:07.400 right wing groups to work with more far right extremists 2:20:07.520 --> 2:20:10.480 and even about all out white supremacists. Once they get 2:20:10.520 --> 2:20:12.960 into a groove together, even if these groups don't always 2:20:13.000 --> 2:20:15.480 get along, they have a revolving door of enemies, and 2:20:16.040 --> 2:20:19.119 if it's time to target somebody because they think there's 2:20:19.160 --> 2:20:21.120 an advantage to it in the moment, then they're going 2:20:21.200 --> 2:20:23.320 to do it. And right now it does seem like 2:20:23.440 --> 2:20:27.400 reproductive rights is back in the crosshairs alongside LGBTQ rights. 2:20:28.000 --> 2:20:30.600 Just a couple of weeks ago, there was a rally 2:20:31.200 --> 2:20:35.640 in southern California outside of a outside of a Walgreens 2:20:35.800 --> 2:20:40.720 shareholders meeting where a lot of right wing activists were 2:20:40.959 --> 2:20:45.200 marching through the hotel chanting that Walgreens is killing people 2:20:45.280 --> 2:20:47.640 because they because you can get an abortion fill through them. 2:20:47.720 --> 2:20:52.320 I think this has created a very tenuous situation where 2:20:52.480 --> 2:20:54.840 there's always someone to go after. If it's not planned 2:20:54.879 --> 2:20:57.520 parenthood this week, next week, go after your local pharmacy, 2:20:57.879 --> 2:21:02.560 go after your local click, go after your local doctor. 2:21:02.760 --> 2:21:05.920 The anti abortion movement is very malleable, it's very fluid, 2:21:06.000 --> 2:21:08.960 and right now they're taken whoever they can get, and 2:21:09.160 --> 2:21:13.880 that includes a lot of openly radical militant groups who 2:21:13.959 --> 2:21:16.520 they turn to as groups that can do quote unquote 2:21:16.560 --> 2:21:19.640 security work, you know, because they're afraid of the left 2:21:19.760 --> 2:21:23.680 coming and attacking them. The anti abortion movement isn't sewing down, 2:21:24.400 --> 2:21:26.760 as our guests from across the country of discuss, the 2:21:26.840 --> 2:21:30.200 more mainstream organizations with deep pockets also aren't attempting to 2:21:30.280 --> 2:21:33.440 distance themselves from the street level fascist groups flocking to 2:21:33.600 --> 2:21:36.440 right wing demonstrations, especially at a time when far right 2:21:36.560 --> 2:21:39.800 violence is escalating across the country. And our last segment, 2:21:39.920 --> 2:21:44.600 IGD correspondent Marcella speaks on recent anti choice demonstrations which 2:21:44.680 --> 2:21:48.000 brought together both the mainstream and the fringe, organized in 2:21:48.080 --> 2:21:51.880 part by Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising, which weaponizes feminist and 2:21:51.959 --> 2:21:56.520 progressive language against drug store giants CBS and Walgreens an 2:21:56.560 --> 2:22:00.440 effort to stop them from selling abortion medication. Anti abortion 2:22:00.600 --> 2:22:04.040 people protest it outside like CBS and Walgreens it's past Saturday, 2:22:04.160 --> 2:22:07.520 like in multiple places, to prevent pharmacies from selling abortion pills. 2:22:07.720 --> 2:22:10.240 I'm honestly, like really angry at this, not only because 2:22:10.320 --> 2:22:12.480 these people are trying to make sure they completely take 2:22:12.520 --> 2:22:14.800 away our rights to bodily autonomy, but because you're also 2:22:14.879 --> 2:22:17.520 making me have to defend CVS and Walgreens. I've also 2:22:17.560 --> 2:22:20.080 thought about protesting outside CVS and Walgreens, but not because 2:22:20.080 --> 2:22:22.520 I'm obsessed with other people's to productive organs. I'm tired 2:22:22.560 --> 2:22:25.440 of them putting everything I need behind a glass anyway, 2:22:25.480 --> 2:22:29.039 Like these abortion protests outside CBS and Walgreens were organized 2:22:29.040 --> 2:22:32.440 by the Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising. Yes, I will say 2:22:32.520 --> 2:22:37.600 that again, the Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising PAAU, which claims 2:22:37.640 --> 2:22:42.400 to want to dismantle the abortion industrial complex. Honestly, it 2:22:42.480 --> 2:22:45.920 sounds like the pa You think that you can just 2:22:46.000 --> 2:22:48.440 add industrial complex to something to make it sound bad, 2:22:48.879 --> 2:22:50.720 or they're just trying to sound cool to make people 2:22:50.720 --> 2:22:53.280 forget that they are fascists. Like, one interesting thing about 2:22:53.320 --> 2:22:57.080 PAU is they want to be so cool that their 2:22:57.200 --> 2:23:01.600 lead organizer, Lauren Handy, calls herself a femt. I honestly 2:23:01.720 --> 2:23:03.560 can't believe that I have to say this, but being 2:23:03.600 --> 2:23:07.360 anti abortion immediately disqualifies you from being a feminist. Fun 2:23:07.480 --> 2:23:10.520 fact about Laura in Handy is that she randomly, she 2:23:10.600 --> 2:23:13.360 didn't randomly. She was caught with five fetuses in her 2:23:13.440 --> 2:23:17.160 apartment and was indicted from blocking a clinic in Washington, 2:23:17.240 --> 2:23:20.199 DC in twenty and twenty. So she's out here blocking 2:23:20.240 --> 2:23:24.160 clinics collecting fetuses, just like doing the worst. This is 2:23:24.240 --> 2:23:26.480 like just the tip of the berg about how like 2:23:26.760 --> 2:23:29.360 these people are trying to act like their freedom fighters. Well, 2:23:29.480 --> 2:23:33.440 the PAU spokesperson literally said, and I quote, their vision 2:23:33.520 --> 2:23:37.320 to turn pharmacies into abortion businesses, which will exploit and 2:23:37.480 --> 2:23:40.640 kill disproportionately low income people and people of color for 2:23:40.760 --> 2:23:44.119 profit will be met with non violent resistance at every turn. 2:23:44.280 --> 2:23:47.520 That's hilarious. These people are literally trying to make fascism 2:23:47.640 --> 2:23:51.120 sound like freedom fighting like, if PAU actually cared about 2:23:51.200 --> 2:23:53.760 low income people and people of color, they would be 2:23:53.879 --> 2:23:56.520 giving away abortion pills that like every corner, not trying 2:23:56.520 --> 2:23:58.840 to stop people from buying them. And also they'd be 2:23:58.959 --> 2:24:02.160 boycotting cb US on Walgreens for totally different reasons. They 2:24:02.160 --> 2:24:05.640 wouldn't be boycotting Walgreens and CBS, we're trying to sell 2:24:05.720 --> 2:24:07.800 people abortion fills. What they'll be doing is that there 2:24:07.840 --> 2:24:11.040 would be boycotting Walgreens and CBS for putting toothpaste behind 2:24:11.080 --> 2:24:13.520 a locked glass, which makes it much harder for poor 2:24:13.640 --> 2:24:16.200 people to get a five finger discount on things that 2:24:16.320 --> 2:24:18.520 they need. That is going to do it for us today. 2:24:18.879 --> 2:24:21.400 Thanks for tuning in once again. This has been It's 2:24:21.480 --> 2:24:24.640 going Down occupying the offices of it could Happen here. 2:24:25.080 --> 2:24:27.800 Be sure to follow us online It's Going Down dot org, 2:24:28.040 --> 2:24:34.920 on Macedon, at igd, Underscore News until next time. Hey, 2:24:35.040 --> 2:24:38.160 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2:24:38.200 --> 2:24:40.760 now until the heat Death of the Universe. It Could 2:24:40.800 --> 2:24:43.080 Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 2:24:43.240 --> 2:24:45.960 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 2:24:46.000 --> 2:24:48.880 Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio, app, 2:24:48.879 --> 2:24:52.080 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 2:24:52.120 --> 2:24:54.760 find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 2:24:54.840 --> 2:24:58.040 cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.