1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you, But 8 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. Hot fucking Moses, Welcome 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: to it could happen here. The podcast that is sometimes 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: introduced by me, Robert Evans, other times it's introduced by 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: James Stout or Mia Wong, who are both on the 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: call today. How's everybody doing? Pretty good? We've we've we've 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: declared victory over the balloon. Yeah we we Finally the 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: F twenty two gets its first air to air kill. 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeahs later. We did it, guys, we did it. 16 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: We really can. Like the F tway two is like 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: God's perfect killing machine. Yeah, and it's thus it is 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: like it is a six hundred and it was like 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: a sixty seven billion dollar aircraft. Completely. It is a 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: it is a perfect air It is a perfect air 21 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: superiority craft. Which in modern warfare makes it slightly less 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: useful than an eight hundred and fifty dollars DJA i'd 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: drone with hand grenades. Yeah yeah, I express. I cannot 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: think of like a better metaphor to understand how the 25 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: US Army works than shooting a using it using a 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: sixty seven billion dollar aircraft to shoot a three hundred 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: and sixty one thousand dollars missile at a balloon. Just 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: like listen, somebody several balloons in his life, ammitately, not 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: this high up. It is extremely entertaining. And uh yeah, 30 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: I can't fault that pilot. I am deeply disappointed in 31 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: rural America that no crazy rich guy with a cessna 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: flew his friend with a fifty cow up to like 33 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: thirty thousand feet drop. That why the seventeen incinerator was 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: invented for this specific instance. And yeah, we've been let 35 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: down again. Anyway, what are we talking about today, Maya? 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: We're talking about the balloon a little bit, and then 37 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about something more interesting, which is 38 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: the sort of history of US China relations and how 39 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: it's not what everyone thinks it is. I've been led 40 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: to believe by the media that there is nothing more 41 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: interesting than the balloon, and that we should be focusing 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: all our coverage on the balloon. That's true. There have 43 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: been other balloons. There are now a fifth balloon, has 44 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: it the towers? Okay? So yeah, let's let's go yeah. 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: So okay, So I want to start off by like, 46 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about the balloon, 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: which is that. Okay, so we have the American Army's claim, 48 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: but this is a surveillance balloon. There's a there's a 49 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: chance it just was a random balloon. Like, I don't know. 50 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to completely discount the fact that it 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: was a balloon. I do want to talk a little 52 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: bit about sort of balloon surveillance stuff though, because I've 53 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: seen a lot of people both on the left and 54 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: also on the right, who are just like, why would 55 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: anyone ever have a spy balloon? It's like, okay, so 56 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit. In order to do this, 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: we need to talk a little bit about surveillance satellites, 58 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: which I come from a family of astronomers, and one 59 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: of the sort of dark secrets of astronomy is that 60 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: the stuff you point up also could be pointed back 61 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: down again and yeah, yeah, so And you know, one 62 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: of the other things about this is that a lot 63 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: of the companies that make telescopes, to make the lenses 64 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: for that, are companies that work heavily with the NRO, 65 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: which is the National Reconnaissance Office, which is a a 66 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: gen du winely terrifying organization with an unfathomable black budget 67 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: to dedicated to just like spying on people from aircrafts 68 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: now from space and more people, more people should be 69 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: like we have a lot of Like people are scared 70 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: of the NSA, people are scared of the CIA, but 71 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: more people should be scared of the NRO, because Jesus Christ, 72 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: that stuff is who but on the only head. Okay, 73 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: so the NRROW has a bunch of satellites, right, But 74 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: the thing about satellites that they move. Okay, you can't 75 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: prove that. I will, I will prove I will I will, 76 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: I will, I will do a war thunder, I will 77 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: post classic live underneath of dome. And satellites are stationary. 78 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: The dome rotates in a clockwise direction around them, and 79 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: that's responsible for the illusion of motion in the heavens. Sure, yes, 80 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: there's no competing response today. So okay, all right, So 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: so satellite satellites move, they move in stable and pdictable 82 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: orbits and this means a few things, right. One of 83 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: the things that it means is that a satellite is 84 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: only over the area you want it to cover for 85 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: a limited amount of time because it's you know, satellites 86 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: moving around the Earth, right, um. And this means that 87 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: you know, you can you can calculate their orbits, and 88 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: you can calculate when they're going to be in range 89 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: of whatever they want to look at, and you know, 90 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,679 Speaker 1: and this means you can do things like, for example, 91 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: figuring out where the satellite is going to be in 92 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: hiding whatever you're working out when they pass this. This 93 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: is how the CIA, this is how the CIA completely 94 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: missed India's nuclear weapons program, is that they knew when 95 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: that they've been dowhen the flies, the spy satellites you're 96 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: flying over, they just hid all the way puts equipment 97 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: and the CIA never figured out they were building dukes 98 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: base well actually not based its bad, but but yeah, yeah, 99 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: it was very funny. Yeah yeah, but they do did 100 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: they just paint it like a hot dog or something 101 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: and just be like guy, they lit just like put 102 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: tarps over it. The satellite came around, and then they 103 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: build things under ground. It's very funny. I'm passionating the 104 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: world's biggest hot dog. I dare in case someone else does. Yeah, 105 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: I think Jamie Loftus actually might. If you beat that, 106 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: you don't have to do all to the death. Jamie 107 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: secret something we're not supposed to talk about on the podcast. Well, look, 108 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's like the Israeli secret arsenal. It's 109 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: it's it's an open secret and not a closed secret. 110 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: So okay. You can solve this problem of of sort 111 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: of telescope go move um either by having just a 112 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: bunch of satellites going constantly or by having a geosynchronous satellite, 113 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: which is which is in an orbit where it's like 114 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: basically over the same spot of the Earth at one time. 115 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: The problem is that both of these are like unfathomably expensive, 116 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: and doesn't mean that governments don't do that, Like the 117 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: US is a multi spy satellites like satellites, but you know, 118 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: it's really really expensive, and there's you know, there's a 119 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: few other reasons why you would use a balloon um. 120 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: Which are you know some of the reasons the US 121 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: uses that use them in Afghanistan. One is that you 122 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: have really limited space on a satellite, which means that 123 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: there's there you know, you can only fit certain kinds 124 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: of equipment onto each satellite. There's another issue, which is that, Okay, um, 125 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: if you're putting spy stuff on a satellite that has 126 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: to work in space, and it turns out that space sucks, 127 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean wanting to kill you. I didn't 128 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: like it. It's a it's a mark of how like 129 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: bad people are at strategic thinking that they would ever 130 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: ask why would you put spy stuff on a balloon? Especially? Yeah, 131 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: Like it's a little weirder to float it over the 132 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: US if that's what happened. But like, if if you 133 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: are the US or China or Russia engaging in most 134 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: of the conflicts those countries engage in where they're not 135 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: dealing with state level actors, provides perfect surveillance, very cheaply, 136 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't require refueling. Like, it's an incredibly reasonable platform 137 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: to spy on people with. Yeah, And I think there's 138 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: another thing which I think has been less talked about, 139 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: which is that, Okay, there's an equipment gap basically between 140 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: when you design a camera for a satellite and when 141 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: the satellite goes up. And this means that whatever you 142 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: whatever kind of cameras and technology you're putting in a 143 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: satellite are going to be by definition a few years 144 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: out of date, because that's just how long it takes 145 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: a design the equipment and putting it and put it 146 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: into the air. But you know, for a balloon, you 147 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,119 Speaker 1: could you can, you could use stuff that's more modern 148 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: than way you would have on a spy satellite now, 149 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: you know. And also like you can you can also 150 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: just put other stuff on the balloon that's such as 151 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: cameras like you can do cig and stuff you can use. 152 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: So okay, well, the moral of this story is that, like, 153 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: the spy balloon is not like a completely implausible thing. 154 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: If if you like put a gun to my head 155 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: and said meo, what happened here, my guests would be 156 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: was like the spy balloon went off course or some 157 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: shit and this lost control of it. Now, yeah, it 158 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: probably was not meant for the continentally United States, because 159 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: that's a weird move. But AGA's happening. So Hi, this 160 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: is Mia in post. So but back when we recorded 161 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: this episode in the heady days of early February, there 162 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: had been but two balloons. There have now been so 163 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: so many more balloons. Oh my god, there the US 164 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: just has balloon mania. We now know a little bit 165 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: more about the sort of suspected Chinese balloon. It does 166 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: that that balloon seems to be an actual balloon at 167 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: the very least. The US government claims that they've recovered 168 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: an enormous amounts of sort of technical and observational equipment 169 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: from it. They said it was, well, what was the 170 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: exact line, the size of three school buses, A bunch 171 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: of signals intelligence stuff, which is something we didn't mention 172 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: an enormous amount. But yeah, like that, that's an Everything 173 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: you can use a balloon for is intercepting phone communications 174 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: or radio communications, etcetera, etcetera. Okay, so like it seems 175 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: like they're like they're the first balloon may have been 176 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: an actual balloo. Every subsequent balloon, however, we have learned 177 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,599 Speaker 1: more so at least one, and my assumption is this 178 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: is every single subsequent balloon after the first balloon. We 179 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: have confirmation that so one of the balloons is shot 180 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: down over Canada by a F twenty two and this 181 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: seems to be a Pico balloon from the Northern Illinois 182 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: Bottlecap Balloon Brigade. These are just like these are these 183 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: just like tiny balloons that people send out so they 184 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: can serve and navigate the globecause these people are just 185 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: like balloon hobbyists. They just they just like balloons, and 186 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's just honestly really sad, like these are 187 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: just people who like they just like putting balloons up 188 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: and watching them go around the world. And they were 189 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: met with the entire aerial light of the world's greatest superpower, 190 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: which spent literally more money than I have ever seen 191 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: in my entire life to annihilate literally like about one 192 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: hundred or two hundred dollars worth of essentially foil and 193 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: some GPS equipment. These people apparently tried to contact the 194 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: US government and tell them what was going on. US 195 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: government was like, so, yeah, congratulations to the US government 196 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: which has uh, it has one, it has one an 197 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: important geostrategic victory over the Northern Illinois Bottlecap Balloon Brigade. Uh. 198 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: This is this has been this has been breaking news 199 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: from MIA in in the in the balloon war. Yeah, 200 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: enjoy the rest of the episode. But you know, I 201 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: wanted to use this to talk about something more interesting, 202 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: which is again like the sort of arc of US 203 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: China relations and what actually drives it, because I think 204 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: people have a really really not very good understanding of 205 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: how it works and why. Okay, I think it's reasonable 206 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: to ask you why why are you talking about the 207 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: arc of US China relations? Aren't US China relations always bad? 208 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: And the answer is no, In fact, US shaded relations 209 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: to sometimes actually quite good. US China relations are driven 210 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: by these two sort of interlocking forces. Right on the 211 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: one hand, you have the internal domestic and also kind 212 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: of global balance of class forces inside a country, and 213 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: that plays a huge role on a lot of the 214 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: things that are going to happen in Duwish China relationship. 215 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: And the other thing that happens is what you, I 216 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: guess would call geopolitics. And we're going to kind of 217 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: start with the geopolitics sign and then move back and 218 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: forth between that and the sort of class angle on it, 219 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: so you can get get get a kind of understanding 220 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: of how how this stuff actually works and how to 221 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: think about it in ways that are just sort of 222 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: incredibly simplistic and useless. So all right, I'm not gonna 223 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: go all the way back to like the eighteen hundreds 224 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: or whatever, because there are US China relations. We actually 225 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: invaded China at one point in like the eighteen hundreds 226 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: for some fucking reason, and we actually we did it 227 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: again the nexteen hundred and two. Yeah, but okay, So, 228 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: but in terms of dealing with modern China, dealing with 229 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: USU and modern US China relations is about the US's 230 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: relationship with the CCP, and weirdly dream world War two 231 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: it was the relations were actually really good, um, you know, 232 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: because obviously China, China is the US's ally and World 233 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: War two I were there were also allies with China's 234 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: nationalist part, the KMT. But you know what's interesting about 235 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: this is that there's a faction of the US army 236 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: that is anti KMT and pro CCP. And they're not 237 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: pro CCP because they're communists. They're pro CCP because a 238 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: they're kind of racist and they really don't like the 239 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: KMT kind of out of racism. And the second thing 240 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: that that's going on is that the KMT, as we've 241 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: talked about elsewhere, it's just like incredibly corrupt Esquad party, 242 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: and that means that you know, some of the people 243 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: who have to like the people who have to work 244 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: with them on the ground to World War two or 245 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: like these are literally the worst people who have ever lived. 246 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: Why on earth are we doing this? That means that 247 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: when when the civil war starts, right like the US 248 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: takes the nationalist side, but like nowhere near as strongly 249 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: as they could have. And this creates this sort of 250 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: like this myth around like the loss of China that 251 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: becomes this massive thing in the US. Is because this 252 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: is one of the things that triggers someth McCarthys and 253 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: etceterac Is like everyone becomes convinced it was like, oh 254 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: my god, like Truman, like like they lost China, Like 255 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: we could have kept China for the communists, but like 256 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: they lost it, and it's wow, okay. But this has 257 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: another massive impact, which is that it creates this thing 258 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: called the China Lobby. And the China lobby is this 259 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: is this sort of bank of these like incredibly psychopathic 260 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: right wing like anti communist goools and some also people 261 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: who had some also people who were like had been 262 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: rich in China and then about owned by this CCP, 263 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: and they start pushing incredibly aggressively for like regime change 264 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: in China for just the US and try to not 265 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: have a diplomatic relations, and this this star starts to 266 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: sort of like tank relations between the US and China. 267 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: And then obviously like so we we fought. We fought 268 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: a war with China and Korea, a thing that I 269 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: feel like doesn't get talked about as much as you 270 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: would think it would. Yeah, the Korean War is the 271 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: memory hold war in yeah, and in the UK. It's 272 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: why I was in America. But it's the war that 273 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: no one Yeah, I mean the Forgotten War is literally 274 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: like it's it's most common nickname. There's a pretty good 275 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: book by that title too. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, 276 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: like like that were like there are there are US 277 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: and Chinese troops like shooting the shit out of each other, 278 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: like oh yeah, well yeah, like a cross the entire peninsula, 279 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: Like there are there are Chinese troops doing bayonet chargers 280 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 1: through the road artillery like the American lines. My my, 281 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: the last before I bought my place, my last landlord 282 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: was a Chinese citizen um living in the US on 283 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: a green card, and during a pandemic conversation over some wine. 284 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: We kind of figured out that both of our grandfathers 285 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: wound up at the same battles and made very in 286 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: shooting each other. Yeah, so that's the melting pot, buddy. 287 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: You she became a landlord. M hmm, Well, I mean, 288 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: I mean that's a dream there, you like, there there 289 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: is a reasonable argument that they're in back again. A 290 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: landlord story is the entire course of the of the 291 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of like Chinese Chinese politics in the twentieth century 292 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: any respect to the United States. Yeah, well, and also 293 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: trying to right because landlords are back now. It sucks. 294 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, land yes, and no Chinese people have become landloads. 295 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, many a subject to landloads. Shit. Yeah, you know. Okay, 296 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: So like obviously it's really interesting too because when people, 297 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: like when people write about US China relations, they normally 298 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: like the thing that the thing they picked from this 299 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: period tends to be like the Tawanies straight crisis, and 300 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, yeah there was this, there were this 301 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: race crisis. But again, like the US and China were 302 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: like shooting at each other like before this, like why 303 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: why is this that? Why is this the thing that 304 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: you pick for the downcour of US China relations like 305 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: we were at war. Okay, but baffling stuff, right, But 306 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, and relations are not good to like the 307 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: sixties either, like sort sort of based on very very 308 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: similar sort of lines that you've seen in the fifties. 309 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: You've like, this is a period where people sort of 310 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: take communism anti communism seriously. That stops being true very quickly. 311 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: On the other hands, these these sort of geopolitics things 312 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: have real material consequences, right. You can look at this 313 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: in the American side, where, for example, the industrial build 314 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: up of the Japanese and Korean economy and also the 315 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: industrial build up like the industrial building of California, right, 316 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: has to do with these sort of trade linkuages that 317 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: are that are being set up in order for US 318 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: to run the war in Korea and run the war 319 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. And China has its own sort of version 320 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: of this, where which which starts getting more and more 321 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: apparent by it starts around the mid sixties, they have 322 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: this thing called the Third Front, which is okay, so, 323 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: having having now been through like I don't know how literally, 324 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: I don't even know how many wars since the start 325 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: of this century, the CCP goes, Okay, we need to 326 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: shift art. We need to shift our production away from 327 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: sort of the coast and into the middle of the 328 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: country so that they can't be attacked by the Soviets 329 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: and they can't be attacked by the Americans. And this, 330 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: this has, this has a really major effect in terms 331 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: of what sort of Chinese industriization looks like. Over the 332 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: course of the mid twentieth centuries. You get, you get 333 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: this industrial belt that's built up and that is going 334 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: to be destroyed later on. And it's destroyed in part 335 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: because of of what starts happening in the seventies, which 336 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: is the sort of warm up between the US and 337 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: China based on sort of Nick Nixon and Kissingers attempts 338 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: to sort of peel the Chinese away from the Soviet Union. 339 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: And you know, like Robert, you've you've talked about this 340 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: ambassadors before, um, but you know, part of part of 341 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: what's going on here is that China like basically gets 342 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: into a war with the Soviet Union in Nitteen sixty nine. 343 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: It's not called that, it's technically just called the border dispute, 344 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: but like like there are troops like shooting at each other, 345 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: like all across the border, people are beating each other 346 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: the death with sticks like people are people are shooting 347 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: borders at each other. It's it's it's it's a real war, 348 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: and it's in a grand British tradition of course, calling 349 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: like massive conflicts an emergency or the troubles. Yeah. Yeah, 350 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: it's like okay, you know, but but this, but this, 351 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: this this really sort of this this really sort of 352 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: drives Chinese sort of international like relations to the point 353 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: where they're like, okay, so I know we're supposed to 354 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: be communists, but also like the other communist power next 355 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: door might like marching army across the board at any point. 356 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: So you know, you get you you get this sort 357 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: of trying to triangle diplomacy of of of becausin you're 358 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: trying to sort of bring China into the or at 359 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: least away from the Soviet spear and then closer into 360 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: the US beer And you know this starts to work, right, 361 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: and you can ask, you know, there's other there's other 362 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: things going on here, right, It's China's not just playing 363 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: pure geopolitics. Um there there there, there's there's another factor involved, 364 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: which is that part of the sort of conditions for 365 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: US and Chinese sort of like as you called bilatter 366 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: relations or what what whatever sort of geopolitical can't bullshit 367 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: you want to say for like getting along closer is 368 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: the US starts sending these technology transfers over to China, 369 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: like I mean literally like like like taking like sometimes 370 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: like taking factories basically and like taking them apart and 371 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: then putting them in boxes and shipping them over to China. 372 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: And you know, okay, and this is this is this 373 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: is a huge deal for the CCP because like the 374 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: Chinese econ mean, this period has been really bad. And 375 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: part of this is just you know, this is what 376 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: happens when you bow. But a secondary part of this 377 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: is that China's has has had a real basically it's 378 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: it's China's been dealing with this sort of economic crisis 379 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: since like like literally since since they came out of 380 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: World War Two, which is that okay, so, but most 381 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: of China's industrial capacity was completely destroyed you in the 382 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: War of the Parchment that weren't were like there was 383 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: this belt in Macharia that had stuff and that the 384 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: Soviets literally loaded loaded the factories on trains and shipped 385 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: them back and shipped them back east or back west. 386 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: So bye bye bye. By the by the time, by 387 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: the time that the CCP takes over, like China has 388 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: less industrial capacity than like Russia dated at the beginning 389 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen, Jesus. So situations really bleak, right, And 390 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: the other the other thing that's bleak about it is that, Okay, 391 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: so in order to build an industrial base, right, we've 392 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: talked about this a bit on the show. In order 393 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: to build industrial base, you need food. But in order 394 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: to get like increase your agriculture productivity, you need like 395 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: medical goods. But you can't get those mechanical goods unless 396 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: you can increase your jectal capacities. You have this bottleneck. 397 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: And this winds up being one of the solutions to 398 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: the bottleneck is getting technology transfers from the US. And 399 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of product of this is that 400 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: now all of our products and services which we are 401 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: about to talk about, which you should buy, are made 402 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: in China. So yeah, go go, go, buy, go buy 403 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: those things that are the product of all of this. 404 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: That's no problem. Yeah, don't don't question it, just purchase it. 405 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: Go to Ali Baba, and just finally, their express. Get 406 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: Alie Express and just wire them seven hundred dollars. Within 407 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to say two weeks to seventeen months, you'll 408 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: get a package of something yet by a drac. Honestly, 409 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: if you order something from Ali Express, there's no real 410 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: way to know what you will get. That's the beauty 411 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: of Ali Express. Look you you. On the other hand, 412 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: there there there is there is a non zero chance 413 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: you get a collection of really really sick Chinese shirts 414 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: that just have absolutely random on him. It's great Chinese shirts, 415 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: or like knockoff versions of military grade optics that work 416 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: well enough for the Taliban to use. Yeah, they liberating 417 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: people of the world over at the expressed optics. All right, 418 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: and we're back. So okay. The Chinese swing into sort 419 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: of like alignment with the US. They they start doing 420 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: things that are like even a lot of the US's 421 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: right wing allies won't do. Like, for example, China, China 422 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: is one of the first countries to like to diplomatically 423 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: recognize Pinochet Chile, and they like send him a shit 424 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: ton of money. Those loans they send they send him 425 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: with direct cash transfers and like this is a point 426 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: where even like France and like the UK are like, 427 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: oh we woo, that's that's a like we're we're not 428 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: We're not We're not gonna have We're not gonna acknowledge 429 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: his military kindship. And China is like yeah, this rules. 430 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: Hell yeah, Pinochet, And you know, they do other stuff 431 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: that's very sort of pro us, right. They invade Vietnam 432 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine in the war that you know, 433 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: the only war that's more forgot, and then the Korean War. Yeah, 434 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: that's it's the side of wit of ease war. Um. Yeah, 435 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: that was some pretty good Twitter threats. That taught me 436 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: a lot about China's non aggression tour to other countries 437 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: last week. Yeah, it's it's a good time. I I 438 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: can we we could all talk about like the Sino 439 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: Indian War in the middle of this where they just 440 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: invade India, which is great, but you know, okay, but 441 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: like what what what this sort of comes up to 442 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: you is in is like you you you get a 443 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: point where the US and China, by by by the 444 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: end of the seventies and going into the eighties, are 445 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: very much on the same side. Like for example, when 446 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: when Dangel Ping came to visit the US. He takes 447 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: he takes like an hour out of his schedule to 448 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: make a secret visit to the CIA so that he 449 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: can set up a joint like USCA Listening posted in 450 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: China to monitor the Soviets. We talk about this a 451 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: lot in the Kissinger episodes from last year, but folks 452 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: should generally be aware that like Chairman maw and Richard 453 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: Nixon legitimately got along, like enjoyed one another's company as 454 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: did and Chowchesscu like they were they were all good friends. Yeah, 455 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: which is something something one ruling class, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, 456 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: there's almost a class analysis you could make the yeah, 457 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: but you know, okay, we we're gon're gonna do it. 458 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: We're gonna do a slightly different class analysis, which is 459 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: that like, okay, so US Shuna relations are very good 460 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: literally like basically until Tianneman and then everything gets kind 461 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: of messed up because Chianamenianemans. It's a very has a 462 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: set of like very weird and contradictory effects, right, you know, 463 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: we we talked about some of this in our Chaman episodes. 464 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: But it does two things. Right. On the one hand, 465 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: like in the US, people are horrified, right the you know, 466 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: the the entire media classes like watches, this happened the 467 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: outside their windows. There's just like it is an incredible uproar. 468 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: It becomes one of the sort of like central like 469 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, like I sort of like it becomes 470 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: it becomes a thing. It's like incredibly central to just 471 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: like the memory of what it is to be an 472 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: Asian American is to sort of like remember uote unquote Tianneman. 473 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you know, so okay, what 474 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: do you would expect from there, is like the US 475 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: and China break off diplomatic relations, and like the Cold 476 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: War two starts again immediately with the US and China, 477 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: and it doesn't happen like that. And it doesn't happen 478 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: like that because the second thing that that that Tianaman 479 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: does is it finally crushes the Chinese working class. And 480 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: you know, once once, once, the once, the old, once, 481 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: the last deald Chinese working class is just gone, right, 482 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: and all that's left is an incredibly disorganized and incredibly 483 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: desperate sort of market working class. Suddenly, hey, look, we 484 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: have a very highly educated, very poor population that you 485 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: can that you can just you know, just ship labor too. 486 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: And this is what this is what actually happens in 487 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: sort of terms sort of the US and Chinese relationship 488 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: over the nineties, which is that you know, you you 489 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: have these this double D industrialization going on. You have 490 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: a D industrialization in the US where you know, the 491 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: last of the old russbelt falls apart, the sort of 492 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: like mining industrial boom that had happened that the Reagan 493 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: just implodes. And you know, some of this is some 494 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: of this is these jualization something. This is these jobs 495 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: go to like the suburbs and shit, or like places 496 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: like Decalb that are just incredibly accursed. But real call 497 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: out there, man, I look, I'm sorry to anyone who 498 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: lives in Decalb. I wish you best luck fleeing that 499 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: guy's at Decalb tourist board sponsorship we've been looking for. Yeah, 500 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: but you know, but but simultaneously there's there there's another 501 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: wave of the industrial relation happening in China too, which 502 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: is that that old third wave industrial belt that I 503 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: was talking about, Right, those people had worked in like 504 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: basically the equivalent of like the Chinese equivalent of sort 505 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: of like good union jobs. Right, They're they're they're working. 506 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: They're working for state for state owned enterprises, so they 507 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 1: have housing, they have healthcare, they have pensions, and all 508 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: of that is just destroyed. Like all these people lose 509 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: their pensions, they lose everything. There are like millions of 510 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: people who are pushed out of their jobs. And you 511 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: know when when both both of both of these things 512 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: happen at the same time, and a lot of companies 513 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: who are watching the sort of vast Asian companies like 514 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: like economies collapse, We're watching the v B is sorry, 515 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: who are watching the South Korean economy collapse, who are 516 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: watching the Japanese economy collapse, suddenly start looking at China 517 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: and throughout the course of the nineties sort of more 518 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: and more American capital. I mean there's already's been capital 519 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,959 Speaker 1: from East Asia sort of flowing in the China, more 520 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: and more American capital starts flowing in. And what you 521 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: get here is you get this battle between geopolitics and economics, 522 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: right that the sort of geopolitics side and the sort 523 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: of like you know this this this is side that 524 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 1: like the media is on and the side is at 525 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: this sort of like the sort of intellectual etc. Et cetera, 526 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: like anti China classes on is. You know, they don't 527 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: they don't want to let China into the World Trade Organization. 528 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: But it doesn't work, right, those guys just get destroyed China. 529 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: China get submitted into the World Trade Organization. Both Bill 530 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: Clinton and George W. Bush support China entering the WTO, 531 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: and they do it because they can they can see 532 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: when I'm partially a little bit of it is because 533 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: they've they've for some like they've they've they've been drinking 534 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: the kool aid and they believe that like, if you 535 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 1: have capitalism, then democracy will follow, which I and lyrical 536 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: data suggesting yeah, okay, sure sure, indio cons like whatever. 537 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: But you know, but it's also it's also because these 538 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: these these these people have financial backers, and their financial 539 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: backers are telling them like, hey, look, we can you know, 540 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: if if if if if like if all of the 541 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: sort of weird sanction regime shit has worked out, and 542 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: if China's fully integrated into the capital system, like we 543 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: can make a lot of money. And they do that 544 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: that this is what the two thousands is, right, like 545 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: Walmarts and like Walgreens and shit like directly integrate all 546 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: of their supply lines into Chinese supply lines. They make 547 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: deals with the Chinese government in order to do this, 548 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: and suddenly by you know, by in two thousand and one, 549 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: China is i think, like the fourth exporter of goods 550 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: in the world. By two thousand and nine they are 551 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: number one by like an order of what on order 552 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: in magnitude. But they're like very very much the dominant 553 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: export like world's dominant export economy. And this is a problem, 554 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: right because on the one hands, you know, if if 555 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: like American Chinese relations get there, they're actually really good 556 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: around nine to eleven, they're actually really good, right, Like 557 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: the the US like there were there there were guys 558 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: from shing who, like China sends the Guantanamo. It's like here, 559 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: take these people in US, torchis them for China, Like 560 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like relations are like relations are good, right, 561 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, hey, we both have like this 562 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: like quote Muslim extremist threat that we're like dealing with, 563 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: you know, and they try to get on the war 564 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: on terror. But eventually relations kind of degrade, like you 565 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: have the whole Olympics thing. You have there's like in 566 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: like the two thousand tens, there's this whole fight over 567 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: these islands that the Philippines claim. But you know, but 568 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: but the problem with this is that, like, okay, so 569 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: you get, on the one hand, a faction of the 570 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: American right that is really and also and also like 571 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: there's actually the American right that's really really hard line 572 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: anti Chinese based on sort of racism. There's American liberalism, 573 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: which you know, has this thing about like the rules 574 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: based international order that like China is violating. They're also racist. 575 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,479 Speaker 1: And then there's like progressives like Elizabeth Warred who are 576 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: also racist and um, and also but you know who's 577 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: thing is like, oh, well, workers rights in China are 578 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: really bad, so we need to do like competition with them. 579 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,479 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, that's how you fix it with more capitalism. Yeah, right, 580 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: And but they have a political issue, which is that 581 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: there's another massive section of American capital that has enormous 582 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: investments moth sort of financially and in terms of where 583 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: their factories are, where the logistics are, where the supply 584 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: lines are that make them incredibly supportive of sort of 585 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: close to US China relations, or at the very least 586 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: makes them oppose any kind of sort of like real 587 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: like anything that goes beyond kind of geopolitical posturing that 588 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: makes it harder to do business for them. And this 589 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: is something I think people have a tendency to forget 590 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: when they when they try to think about US China 591 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: relationship terms of economics, is that like, Okay, so there, 592 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: the US has a military industrial complex, but that's not 593 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: the that's not the entire US economy. Like, there are 594 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: other people in the US who have lots of money. 595 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: There was an entire financial sector, there was an entire 596 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: tech sector, and those people also have a shit ton 597 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: of money. And even even sort of tech companies, right 598 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: who who have a foot in sort of the American 599 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: contracting business, also often have a bunch of their you know, 600 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of the places where the technology is built 601 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: is in China, right, So you know, even even people 602 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: who could theoretically be brought into a sort of like 603 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: like an umbiltering industrial complex political coalition against China, like 604 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: have reasons not to do it. And you know, and 605 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: this this works down the board. Right if you look 606 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: at when Trump did the trade war, he you know, 607 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: initially there was a lot of popular support among sort 608 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: of like American like mid sized businesses, who are like, oh, 609 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: we can bring industrial capacity back to the US. And 610 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: then all of them discovered that they had to pay, 611 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: like all of discovered that, like they had to pay 612 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: more for their Chinese goods, and we're like, wait, hold on, 613 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: we fucked up. We've made a mistake. He's actually screwed us. 614 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: And like, you know, there's there's another kind of guy, 615 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: right who there's a lot of people who you expect 616 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: to be really antic CCP who aren't, right, and Elon 617 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: Musk is the best example of this. Like she's the guy. 618 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: I think we'd expect Elon Musk to fully support anyone 619 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: who can fully stamp on the face of their working class, 620 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: because that's true. But he's the kind of person, true 621 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: you would expect, by pure racism to be like a 622 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: really hard Lana to CCP guy, and he's not, because 623 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: like he has, there's a class consciousness I think which 624 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: overapes even apartepe boys racism well and and and like 625 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: he has, there's the Tesla has this like oh god, 626 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: it's called the Giga factory, which is a name that 627 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: makes me want to die. Yeah, I mean, but the 628 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: Giga factories in Shanghai, right, And like he ha. He 629 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: has even even dream when like the media was like 630 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: like pretending to care about the weaker genocide, like he 631 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: opened a showroom and shing John like dream that period. 632 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: So you know, and there's also people like Michael Bloomberg 633 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: who are for very like you know, if you if 634 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: you if if you read Michael Bloomberg talking about China, 635 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: like in the media, he also talking about like how 636 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: grave leader Hijinping is and it's you know, it's because 637 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: the people have financial interests there and you know, and 638 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: and this this means that like you know, even even 639 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,959 Speaker 1: the sort of media coverage of this balloon bullshit, right, 640 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: and like China has been like threatening revenge or whatever 641 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: for the shooting down to the balloon, But like this 642 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: isn't going to turn into anything, right, It's it's the 643 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: same in the same way that like the last time 644 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: I watched like straight stuff like didn't turn into anything. 645 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: In the same way that like less seventeen goddamn with 646 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: these scandals isn't going to go anywhere. And it's not 647 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: going to go anywhere because there's a there's an enormous 648 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: like faction of American capital who relies on this stuff. 649 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: I think it serves like the manditary industrial complex and 650 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: the military specifically to have China be like Schrodinger's Next 651 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: World War, right, like that they're always a threat, but 652 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: like then they're not a threat, you know, like we 653 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: can justify so much spending and allocation of resources if 654 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: we can always like wave this stick of potential conflict 655 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: with China. Yeah, And I think there's something that's kind 656 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: of like this important to understand is that like both 657 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: the China Hawks and the China Doves are enemies of 658 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: both the American and Chinese working classes. Like the China 659 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,719 Speaker 1: Hawks thing is they want to like, you know, they 660 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: want to put the Chinese American working classes against each other. 661 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: And it's like national philist fervor in order to get 662 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: everyone to ignore the fact that like both the societies 663 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: are collapsing around them. And by the way, didn't did 664 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: we we have no, I don't. I don't think this 665 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: has really made the news yet, but a Norfolk Southern 666 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: fucking basically set off a chemical weapon in Iowa by 667 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: crashing one by crashing a train full of toxic chemicals. Yeah, 668 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: and it's it's literally exploding like right now, as as 669 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: we're fucking to recording this episode. It's on fire. Oh good. 670 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: You know. I love how when you deregulate train industry 671 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: so that you can have just like one guy working 672 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: a massive train hauling huge amounts of toxic chemicals, it 673 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: works out great. Yea happens. It's good efficiency. Rub Yeah. Look, 674 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: a train crash like this would have normally taken dozens 675 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: of people to engineers. So we have we have improved 676 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: our efficiency markedly well. And also in terms of efficiency, 677 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: Robert like, think of how bad it could have been 678 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: if we hadn't crossed the rail strikes. Yeah, so yeah, 679 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: it can been disaster, Yeah, terrible. There might not be 680 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: there might not be a giant poisoned gas clad and 681 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: what is it, Ohio, we can't have that. Yeah, it's 682 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: in the East Palestine, Ohio. That's it's it's Palestine. They 683 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: don't say, can have American solidarity with with Palestine. NICs. Oh, free, 684 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: free Palestine. That's what I'm saying. That's been done already, 685 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: the first, the first Palestine. This will this will seem 686 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: like it's in bad taste if a lot of people 687 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: wiped up dying. But yeah, yeah, I also want to 688 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: mention here that I'm I'm gonna take this opportunity to 689 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: mention that China is the second large Israel's second largest 690 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: trading partner, and they do like yeah, and like they 691 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: they do like security exchanges with each other where people 692 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: trade each other's military is it's great, it's great. Um yeah, 693 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: but but you know, you could rely if someone is 694 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: oppressing working people they've done a security exchange with Israel. 695 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: That is it's golden lore of cup beating you in 696 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: the head with a stick. So it's never more than 697 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: two degrees removed from the idea. Okay, there's one less 698 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: thing I want to talk about really briefly, which is okay, 699 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: So one of the things you will see people talk 700 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: about who are like pundits or like people on the 701 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: news talked about this thing called decoupling. And the thing 702 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: you need to understand immediately is at the moment someone 703 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: says the word decoupling, you can stop listening to everything 704 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: they're about to say because they are lying to you, 705 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: like it is bullshit. So the what in theory the 706 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: coupling is this thing where like supposedly, like the US 707 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: and Chinese economies are gonna decouple, right, and like all 708 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: the American firms in China are gonna pull out, and 709 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: they're gonna pull out their supply chains and they're gonna 710 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: relocate them to swhere else in the world, and the 711 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: US and Chinese economies suddenly will like not be coupled 712 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: to each other. It's like, no, they're not, Like this 713 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: has never happened. It didn't. It didn't Like if it 714 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: was gonna happen, it would have happened in twos and seventeen, 715 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: and like, doesn't eighteen when Trump was Trump is doing 716 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: the trade war, It didn't happen. Then. The only time 717 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: it's ever happened, or the only time American companies ever 718 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: sort of pulled out of China like on mass or 719 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: tried to was Ironic Green twen two thousand and eleven. 720 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: But in two thousand and eleven they are trying to 721 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: pull out because of the Wukan riots and this like 722 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: mass of surge of strikes in China, and suddenly all 723 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: these companies were like, oh my god, China might not 724 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: be able to keep our I might be not be 725 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: able to suppress the working class hard enough. And then 726 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: they yeah, they got horribly crushed. And well, the other 727 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: thing that happened was like company. They like companies tried 728 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: to go elsewhere and they couldn't do it because no one, 729 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: like no other countries had the combination of like a 730 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,240 Speaker 1: like things like a stable electrical grid and like working roads, 731 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: like an actually highly educated population. So like they didn't 732 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: have all of these things at once. So they all 733 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: came back and you know that that was that was 734 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: close as ever came to happening. Everyone talks about this 735 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: all the time, they're lying to you. Ignore them. Yeah, 736 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: it's it's it's not it's not going to happen. The 737 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: US and Chinese economies are inextorably bound to each other, 738 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: and they're going to continue to be. Yeah, I mean, 739 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,959 Speaker 1: we can't run like our economy to a logic extent 740 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: on an economy, but I cast society runs on like 741 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: providing treats to the working class just enough to prevent 742 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: them from a battle angle from trying to radically change anything. 743 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: And like we can't keep the constant stream of treats 744 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: running if if we decouple from China, right, like cheap 745 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: consumer goods. And also like the Chinese economy relies on 746 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: like as an expert economy, right like they've they've they've 747 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: they've been trying to turn to an internal consumption economy 748 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: for a decade. It's like not really working because hilariously, 749 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: it's not working because they don't pay people enough to 750 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: buy shit, and surely no one will ever do that 751 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 1: because yeah, yeah, so you know, but yeah it's great. 752 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: But you know, okay, I guess like the gist of 753 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: what I wanted to say here is that, like like you, 754 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: US China, relations are driven by forces that are more 755 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: complicated than man on TV yell at balloon, and as 756 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: as powerful as man on TV yell at balloon, seems 757 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: like in the moment, it's not actually the thing underlying 758 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: what's going on here. And you need to be able 759 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: to look past man yell at balloon on TV in 760 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: order to look at the sort of the broader, the 761 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: broader political and social forces that are that are going 762 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: on here. And I think beyond that, what we need 763 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: to do is recognize that there's a deep emptiness at 764 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: the center of American society that should have, in this 765 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 1: case been filled by rich people in cessnas and their 766 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: friends with high caliber precision rifles flying into the sky 767 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: and a noble caxote quest to shoot that fucking balloon down, 768 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: just having Sancho Panza. C'm so disappointed in this country. Um, 769 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: I expected forty or fifty people to die, but that 770 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: balloon to be taken down. There was a time when 771 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: we had a country. Yeah, our founding fathers would have 772 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: dropped that son of a bitch. Yeah, Joe Brandon has 773 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: forced some wan into retirement. Yeah, and China has revealed anyway, 774 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: I hope China sends another balloon. Yeah, what else are 775 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: we going to do? Yeah? I feel like a Mickey 776 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: Mouse fucking Frozen balloon. You know, if they do like 777 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: the girl from Frozen, Sure, it would be cool. I'd 778 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: like to see that. They should start pranking us with 779 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: character balloons. I'd fucking love that. Oh God. But but 780 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: but then the US would start sending like Wi the 781 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: Pool balloon. Elizabeth would commission a Moana balloon to like 782 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: illegal for raising fun to happen. We would have like 783 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: a balloon based Cold war where the United States starts 784 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: shooting over balloons across China and the Russians start floating, 785 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 1: and it's just, yeah, we got to close the balloon gap. 786 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: Becomes the number one world power. Green Chili Jack boots 787 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: stamping over the face of humanity strong minutary capacity. The 788 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: developers of Balloons Tower Defense get hauled before a Senate 789 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: committee for supposedly doing the future. God yeah, yeah, we 790 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: got a nationalized MYLA production in order to monopolize it. 791 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: All right, well the balloon pause. Yeah, I think that's 792 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: our episode. Yea, all right, until next time, everybody go 793 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: forth in balloon. Yeah yeah. Float a balloon into the 794 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: airspace of a sovereign nation, just to take with them 795 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: a little bit by Cameron Ali Express, put it on 796 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: a balloon, send it somewhere. But you can be be 797 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: the CIA you want to see in the skies over 798 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: a sovereign country on the balloon, spree painted on the side. 799 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: Why not? Why not? What's the harm? What could possibly 800 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: go wrong? Now I'm going to listen. On an unrelated note, 801 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm finally going to listen to the SI song ninety 802 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: nine Red Balloons for the very first time. Changes my 803 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: opinion on what people should do with balloons. All right, 804 00:40:51,160 --> 00:41:10,439 Speaker 1: everyone out, Hi, everyone's it could happen here and today 805 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: it's near and myself and we're doing two interviews, which 806 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: is going to split over two different episodes. What we're 807 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: talking about is a case in Asha, North Carolina, where 808 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: a group of people doing mutual aid work with and 809 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 1: How's people have been charged with felony littering. Now we're 810 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: going to get a little bit in the episode into 811 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: what felony littering is. Unfortunately, I don't think any of 812 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: us can explain why that exists as a charge for 813 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: individuals and not for like you know, BP or SHELL 814 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: or something, but such as a state. And so in 815 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,919 Speaker 1: the first episode, we're going to talk to Sarah. Sarah 816 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: is one of the people facing these felony littering charges. 817 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: Sarah's also been banned from parks in Nashville and which 818 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about. So Sarah will explain a 819 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: little bit of the process that led up to those 820 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: felony littering charges, what the situations like in Ashville for 821 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: mutual Aid in front How's people. And then we're going 822 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: to talk to Maniba tomorrow. Maniba is one of the 823 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: lawyers at the ACOU, and she will explain a little 824 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: bit of the legal background to the case and what 825 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: is sort of the way that the ACOU is helping 826 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: these people oppose the ban. So we'll have two separate episodes, 827 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: but we actually recorded them in a different order, so 828 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: you're going to hear Sarah maybe referring to some stuff 829 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: Maniva said, and Maniba saying, Sarah will say some stuff. 830 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: Just know that we recorded Mania first because she had 831 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: a pressing time commitment, But we felt that Sarah's interview 832 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: gives you a better set up for listening to Manya's 833 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: interview tomorrow. Okay, hope you enjoy. We're going to start 834 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: out talking to Sarah. He's one of the people who 835 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: is a quote unquote problem child in Asheville. We can Yeah, yeah, Sarah, 836 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: did like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're 837 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: a problem child? Yeah, my name is Sarah Norris. Um. 838 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: It's so funny to be called something like a problem 839 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: child because I'm mostly like what I am as a 840 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 1: mom of a little kid. I'm a social work student, 841 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: like I am a career educator. Um. And I am 842 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: also yeah, one of sixteen local organizers who who has 843 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: been facing for almost the last year felony littering charges 844 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: in conjunction with December twenty one. December twenty twenty one 845 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: art spaced protest. Yeah, I'm sorry, did this bizarre thing 846 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: has happened to you. Obviously, like on the face fit felines, 847 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: feloninees ring is a bizarre charge and the fact that 848 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: you are banned from parks is also very weird. Al Right, 849 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: so let's maybe start off with like the situations before this, 850 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: what were you what we were doing in the parks 851 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: that led to you being deemed unsuitable for parks? Gosh, 852 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: no way, you'd have to ask those who deemed who 853 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: so deemed us. But I can talk about what I 854 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: did in parks for for the year prior to being banned. Um, 855 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: And that's a I was part of a collective whom 856 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: who at the beginning of the pandemic um did like 857 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: six times a week meals, coffee, gear distribution in parks. Um. 858 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: By the time I came around and started participating in 859 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: these in these food sharings, in these community gatherings, UM, 860 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: we were at like two or three times a week. 861 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: And um, really what the way I spent my time 862 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 1: in parks was Saturdays and Sundays. I brought my daughter 863 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: to Aston Park and we brought food with us, gear 864 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: with us, art supplies with us, or nothing with us. 865 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,879 Speaker 1: We just showed up as us and we hung out 866 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: and we distributed food, tents, packs, socks, toothbrow is really 867 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,840 Speaker 1: whatever we could get our hands on. UM. And towards 868 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: the end of the year, we got a little bookshelf 869 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: and uh we were we were in charge of bringing 870 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: books UM on this like little white plastic shelf and 871 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: like talking to people about what they most wanted and 872 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: see if they can match them up with whatever we 873 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: randomly had. UM. It was really like sitting in the 874 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: sunshine and uh making sure the coffee thing was full UM, 875 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: and mostly just talking to people, people who were run house, 876 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: people who are housed, people who walked by and were like, 877 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,919 Speaker 1: what's this? What's this picnic? Why is everybody like using 878 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: glitter glue? Like, oh, because there's a five year old 879 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: and that's what we do. UM. So So that's what 880 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: mostly I did in Parks UM. And this is this 881 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: this activity UM is in the context of a city 882 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: who I think in twenty twenty one, UM, I think 883 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,800 Speaker 1: we know there were at least twenty one sweeps of 884 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: homeless encampments, and a sweep like that name for some 885 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: of us, really connotes violence, but I think it's important 886 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: to name how violent those are. A camp sweep means 887 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: that folks have to leave the place where they've been living, 888 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: and very often their belongings are then considered to be trash, 889 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: are bulldozed over, are are at a minimum lost to them. 890 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: And this had happened over and over again in the 891 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 1: city of Asheville. And yeah, there's a way that that 892 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: being in the park weekly felt like a thing that 893 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: happened in Ashville that was the opposite of feats that 894 00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,359 Speaker 1: was like we're here, We're all here together, like here 895 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: we are. And so the protest itself around which in 896 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 1: the context of which like these arrests have come, happened 897 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: in December, and it was an arts based protest and 898 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: was really about was in favor of sanctuary camping in 899 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: the city of Ashville with sanitation services. That was the 900 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: point of it. And there were like kind of standard 901 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: protest related events on or sorry, arrests on Christmas night. 902 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: So that's what um Asheville Police did. And I think 903 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: it's important just to note that there were not unhoused 904 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 1: folks evicted that night on Christmas night, and no one 905 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: who was there was pretending to be unhoused and was arrested. 906 00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: That's a strange narrative that the City of full Police 907 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: department has set in open court. Um. But there were 908 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:09,879 Speaker 1: standard sort of like misdemeanor trespass resisting officer arrest that night, um, 909 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: including of journalists. And then these felony littering cases came 910 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: much later and in a kind of a different context. 911 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: But that's what that's what happened around Christmas. Okay, yeah, 912 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: it's already pretty weird, but I think, yeah, it gets waited. 913 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. So so particularly if you were not arrested, 914 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: then I went home and Chrismasy stuff, and then at 915 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: some point, well a letter comes through your doors saying 916 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: that you've been charged with like felony littering. So my 917 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 1: own experience was that people organizers in the mutually collective 918 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: that I'm part of, who had been showing up in 919 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,800 Speaker 1: the parks week after week distributing food and gear, started 920 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: getting arrested in mid January. For um, what we learned 921 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 1: was something you could be arrested for, which was felony 922 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: littering and or aiding into and a betting felony littering, 923 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: which like honestly exactly and and some people had one, 924 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: some people had the other. Some people had both um 925 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 1: people were and this is you know, our understanding is 926 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,320 Speaker 1: that there's an unstated but generally followed policy by the 927 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: City of Ausha police de forma that they don't go 928 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: arrest people at work. But they went to people's work 929 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 1: with five cops and arrested them. Um. And this began 930 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:51,200 Speaker 1: in mid January and it continued um into into February. 931 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,279 Speaker 1: And be arrest I mean, honestly, the charges on the 932 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,719 Speaker 1: on the charge sheets would read like crazy statues that 933 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: weren't even felony littering. It seems like they it really 934 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: seemed like they were making it up as they went along, 935 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 1: just from the what I can say is, I mean, 936 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 1: I can't speculate about what they were doing, but there 937 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:13,440 Speaker 1: was a strangeness to to even like the documentation that 938 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:18,719 Speaker 1: people who are arrested received. And then at the first 939 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: week of March of last year, the letter that I 940 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:28,000 Speaker 1: received was similar to others that others other folks received 941 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,280 Speaker 1: that day, which was in an envelope from the Asheville 942 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: Police Department but was on Ashell Parks and arc stationary 943 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,839 Speaker 1: that told me that I had been banned from all 944 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,920 Speaker 1: city parks for a period of three years based on 945 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: the commission of a felony. And this was how I 946 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: found out that I even had any charges, was through 947 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaker 1: this letter. And that's true for more than me, that's 948 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,440 Speaker 1: true for a few defends. Um. So you know, not 949 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,839 Speaker 1: everybody who is now we understand to be banned from 950 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:12,960 Speaker 1: parks has even received one of those letters, but I did, 951 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: and a few of us did, And there was on 952 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,480 Speaker 1: there a sort of like if you would like to 953 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: appeal this, you have seven days, but the letter had 954 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: been dated sort of five days before that, and we 955 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: were like, wow, what are we even doing? And so 956 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 1: it's hard to it's hard to really communicate the like 957 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: level of um both like sort of desperation and nonsense 958 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 1: that was involved. The next day, but um, you know, 959 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: so a few of us found this out. We were 960 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,400 Speaker 1: we self surrendered, and because we were a lot of 961 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,640 Speaker 1: us around the courthouse in city hall, we were trying 962 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,920 Speaker 1: to figure out what does this letters even mean? Like 963 00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 1: what does it mean to appeal this? What does it 964 00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: need to be banned? And so we trapesed around city hall, 965 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: city offices, the courthouse trying to get some sort of 966 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,120 Speaker 1: answer like what here we've got these what does this mean? 967 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,480 Speaker 1: And every place sent us somewhere where they were like, 968 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 1: we don't know what that is. Park Snart said, we 969 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: don't know what that is. Go talk to the police. 970 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,439 Speaker 1: We said, we don't know what that is. Go talk 971 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,840 Speaker 1: to the magistrate. The criminal magistrate said, oh, this seems 972 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: like a civil magistrate thing. So there's like a group 973 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,320 Speaker 1: of five mutual aid workers, you know, sort of just 974 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 1: trapesing around trying to find out like can I do 975 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,960 Speaker 1: I get to go give out sandwiches intense in the 976 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: park this week or not for three years? What is? 977 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 1: And who can help me figure this out? And no 978 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,959 Speaker 1: one could? And what insod We never got an answer 979 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,120 Speaker 1: that day. We just had city employees looking at us, 980 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,320 Speaker 1: often with a like wow, we don't We're sorry this 981 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: is happening to you. This seems really dumb expression. And eventually, 982 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 1: via email it became clear that they were like, we 983 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,960 Speaker 1: don't know what this process is, but we're going to 984 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: tell you soon, like thank you for your email, you know, 985 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: saying you're going to appeal it. And over time we 986 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,359 Speaker 1: kind of got a little bit more like okay, we're 987 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: going to schedule the hearings. You will have a hearing eventually, 988 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: like okay, we ask who will be these are like 989 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,880 Speaker 1: for what what is a hearing? And they didn't know, 990 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,960 Speaker 1: and then like, oh, okay, well there will be some 991 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,759 Speaker 1: police officers there and you know, the city representative from 992 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: the City Attorney's office, and you will have a chance 993 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: to provide information. And you know, at this point, like, 994 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:32,759 Speaker 1: none of us, I think none of us had maybe 995 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,840 Speaker 1: we'd had Adam appearances, but like, at this point, we're 996 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,799 Speaker 1: dealing with felony littering charges that we don't understand. We're 997 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 1: trying to figure out whether we can continue to provide 998 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,520 Speaker 1: community care in the way we've been doing for years, 999 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: and it seems like what the city is offering is 1000 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 1: a chance to come and maybe entrap ourselves. Like it 1001 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to us. And so you know, 1002 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,160 Speaker 1: those of us who had representation that we could speak 1003 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:09,600 Speaker 1: to said, oh, we're coming, um, and have you heard 1004 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: the recordings? No, Well, if you would like them, I'm 1005 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 1: happy to send them. Mine is particularly I can't listen 1006 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 1: to mine. I have a huge nervous system response. Um, 1007 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,480 Speaker 1: but mine is my my attorney asking over and over 1008 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,120 Speaker 1: again questions of the of the representative, the city attorney. 1009 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,239 Speaker 1: It's not it's John Maddox, who's um named in the 1010 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,359 Speaker 1: ACLU demand letter. Um, just saying over and over again, 1011 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,400 Speaker 1: like what at that point, we haven't even seen any discovery, 1012 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 1: Like we don't know what information this is even based on. 1013 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 1: Like there are two cops in uniform pointing body cams 1014 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,440 Speaker 1: that assume I have to assume pointing body cams at me, um, 1015 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: and in this in this hearing, and my lawyer is 1016 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,960 Speaker 1: just asking over and over again, like upon what evidence 1017 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: is this space? And they just said over and over again, 1018 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,720 Speaker 1: you're here to give information. We are not giving any information. 1019 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 1: My lawyer asking what is the standard of review here? 1020 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,439 Speaker 1: Like how upon what is this base? And the parks 1021 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,880 Speaker 1: director just saying like my decision and the and and 1022 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: then and then you know, what are the what is 1023 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,600 Speaker 1: the remedy if this is if the appeal is denied, 1024 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,440 Speaker 1: there's none, then the appeal is denied. Like and so 1025 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,040 Speaker 1: it really was for me one of the moments where 1026 00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:29,759 Speaker 1: I realized, like, oh, the city is is pretty hell 1027 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,120 Speaker 1: bent on keeping a bunch of sweethearts who give out 1028 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 1: tens and sandwiches out of the park, and they're gonna 1029 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,920 Speaker 1: like they're they're up to something here. Um. But I'm 1030 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,000 Speaker 1: happy to share that recording. We have all of them reported. Yeah, 1031 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:51,239 Speaker 1: I'd like that performance of like suitable legal ceremony well 1032 00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 1: and again and and like pseudo in a dangerous and 1033 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,719 Speaker 1: extra judicial way, like I had no protections there, right, Yeah, 1034 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:04,439 Speaker 1: you know, like yeah, there's something to respond to. Yeah, 1035 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,520 Speaker 1: it's like these these are these, these are Star Chamber proceedings, 1036 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,879 Speaker 1: like like the King of France is going to walk out. 1037 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,200 Speaker 1: I just think it seems like such a British thing, 1038 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,520 Speaker 1: like yeah, you told me this in Britain and you've 1039 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,160 Speaker 1: been like shooting the Queen's swans or something. I'd buy it. 1040 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 1: You know. Here we are in the land of the free. 1041 00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,960 Speaker 1: You know that well, And I think the equivalent of 1042 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 1: shooting the Queen's swunts here is um hanging out with 1043 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: poor folks in a park um and in ways that 1044 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:47,719 Speaker 1: inconvenience or that apparently inconvenience the folks who go who 1045 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,160 Speaker 1: pay money because you have to to play tennis at 1046 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:55,640 Speaker 1: a public tennis court which is like right by Aston 1047 00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,120 Speaker 1: Park and and we can go in in a minute 1048 00:56:58,120 --> 00:56:59,799 Speaker 1: as much as you want to to what you saw 1049 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,680 Speaker 1: as far as like their attempts after their attempts to 1050 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: pass to sneak through an ordinance. Um. Now we know 1051 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,120 Speaker 1: quite clearly from public records directed at at food sharing 1052 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,880 Speaker 1: in Austin Park. Yeah, it's really I keep thinking about 1053 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,480 Speaker 1: that that Helder Kamara aligned I. When I give food 1054 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:20,960 Speaker 1: to the poor, they called me a saint. When I 1055 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:22,720 Speaker 1: asked why the air poor? They call me a communist. 1056 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: But it's like they really seem to have blown all 1057 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,200 Speaker 1: the way, Like they didn't even get to part two. 1058 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 1: They were just like, wait, hold on, you're giving food 1059 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: to the poor, like it is time for a military response. 1060 00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 1: It's just it's just horrible. Yeah, and being banned from 1061 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,200 Speaker 1: parks for three years has a pretty big effect on 1062 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: my on my little life, you know, like there are 1063 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:54,680 Speaker 1: constitutional um aspects to it that matter far beyond me 1064 00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: and and which matter in many ways more too. But 1065 00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 1: the fact right now is that like I can't legally 1066 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: take my young child like to the park, buy her 1067 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,920 Speaker 1: house without risking a rest for misdemeanor trust house. Um 1068 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,160 Speaker 1: and and to my knowledge I won't be able to 1069 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: for three years. Um. And you know, they've succeeded in 1070 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 1: getting us out of the park. They caused the harm 1071 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: to they disrupted community care Um, they did it. They 1072 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:33,439 Speaker 1: didn't need the ordinance. Um, you know, it does happen. 1073 00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,120 Speaker 1: Food distribution happens, but it's in a place that really 1074 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 1: isn't the same. Like my daughter can't go there. She 1075 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,520 Speaker 1: has some sensory stuff like being in the loud place 1076 00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,720 Speaker 1: that it is right now, it really doesn't work. Um. 1077 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:53,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's this. There's this very um like the 1078 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: scopes of all of this um from how Asheville as 1079 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,160 Speaker 1: a city views and treats the folks who live on 1080 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: the street here who the city has most abandoned. There's 1081 00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: the legal mechanisms, the like very strange way they are 1082 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:15,480 Speaker 1: like doubling down on criminalization of folks doing community care. 1083 00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,080 Speaker 1: And then there's just like the really day to day 1084 00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: personal personal bits of this that affect all of us 1085 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,520 Speaker 1: in different ways, and a felony would affect lots of 1086 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,720 Speaker 1: us in different ways, Like it endangers professional licensure, Like 1087 00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get a social work license, like people, 1088 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,080 Speaker 1: it endangers professional licensure. Of course, I right to vote, 1089 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:43,520 Speaker 1: housing and employment. And you know, I'm the like middle aged, white, 1090 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,320 Speaker 1: middle class mom, second graduate degree person in the group. 1091 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,800 Speaker 1: I am not really representative of our group. Like folks 1092 00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,320 Speaker 1: are in a lot less folks are in a lot 1093 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,640 Speaker 1: more precarious and material circumstances than I am, and so 1094 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,440 Speaker 1: much so that like, you know, it feels safe for 1095 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 1: me to come on this podcast. It doesn't feel safe 1096 01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,720 Speaker 1: for everybody to come on a podcast. It feels safe 1097 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,880 Speaker 1: for me to have my name out, like, um, it 1098 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:14,640 Speaker 1: doesn't for everybody. And I think, um, yeah, I think 1099 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,920 Speaker 1: that that's something that has to be named too. Of 1100 01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:19,840 Speaker 1: like how what I threat this is to folks future 1101 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: material will being as well as currently Like folks have 1102 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 1: most housing over this, Folks have lost employment over this, 1103 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,760 Speaker 1: like um Jesus Christ. Yeah, like even if you're found 1104 01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,360 Speaker 1: completely innocent or whatever, like this has robbed your time 1105 01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:35,680 Speaker 1: or people at the housing or people's their jobs. It 1106 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,680 Speaker 1: caused stress and in that way, you know, it does 1107 01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:45,240 Speaker 1: feel and often to us like the like the punishment 1108 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,360 Speaker 1: is the process. Yeah, it's just harassment. So I don't 1109 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,240 Speaker 1: know if I feel are updated on like there are 1110 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,160 Speaker 1: five of us being taken to trial. Is that something 1111 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 1: you know? Okay, yeah so yeah yeah, but our listeners 1112 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,120 Speaker 1: probably aren't. So it's lain like so right after this 1113 01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,040 Speaker 1: happened or at some point, Alt's happening. So I know 1114 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:05,720 Speaker 1: when we started speaking, I was like, oh, well, I'd 1115 01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,200 Speaker 1: pr ra this shit out of Aya City council people, 1116 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,760 Speaker 1: and you were like we already have. Yeah, so because 1117 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,640 Speaker 1: there was some stuff in there that was just weirdly Yeah, 1118 01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,720 Speaker 1: can you what you got from, like this has got 1119 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:25,080 Speaker 1: a problem job Montaka come from, among other things. Sure, yeah, gosh, 1120 01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,800 Speaker 1: it's so even talking about it, I have such a 1121 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:34,400 Speaker 1: reaction and um that I can feel um and I 1122 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,200 Speaker 1: should say, you know, I speak about this to my 1123 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,880 Speaker 1: not not about the city of the text necessarily, but 1124 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:42,720 Speaker 1: I speak about the situation to a lot of people 1125 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,360 Speaker 1: because it does feel to us like you know, they're 1126 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,760 Speaker 1: also I think they would like us to be ashamed, 1127 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 1: but we're not ashamed of what is happening to I mean, 1128 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,200 Speaker 1: that's part of the degradation of a quick system. And 1129 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,640 Speaker 1: so you know, all of my neighbors know what is 1130 01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,160 Speaker 1: happening to me, all of the people that I work 1131 01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:04,040 Speaker 1: with in the various like uh, school related jobs and 1132 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,680 Speaker 1: such that I do. And to a person, everyone in 1133 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:11,320 Speaker 1: Asheville starts with disbelief. They're like no, and then I'm 1134 01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:15,959 Speaker 1: like yes, and then they're just so disappointed, like they're 1135 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:21,440 Speaker 1: just they're so appalled. Often people say the number in 1136 01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,480 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, Like often people are like, wow, I 1137 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,640 Speaker 1: really I didn't know. Some people did know, you know 1138 01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:32,400 Speaker 1: that the city was was like this. UM, but you 1139 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,200 Speaker 1: know that's that's sort of paralleled my experience in a way, 1140 01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:40,480 Speaker 1: just like disbelief and then and then disappointment. UM. But yeah, 1141 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:48,440 Speaker 1: we recently it's intensified recently seeing the publicly available communication 1142 01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:59,360 Speaker 1: between council members UM, and I think, UM, I want 1143 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,919 Speaker 1: to be careful and I don't have it in front 1144 01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:03,400 Speaker 1: of me, and so I don't want to I don't 1145 01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,240 Speaker 1: want to misquote it. But what I can say, UM, 1146 01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,400 Speaker 1: is that anybody can go find on the City of 1147 01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,960 Speaker 1: ashtables public records or busts. Anybody can go get those 1148 01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,280 Speaker 1: now because they've been requested UM. And so they're publicly available. 1149 01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:21,520 Speaker 1: And we have texts between council members that UM, that 1150 01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:26,560 Speaker 1: are kind of debate that that are in contemplation of 1151 01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:32,560 Speaker 1: an ordinance that would restrict food sharing in public places 1152 01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:37,560 Speaker 1: to to require permitting in contemplation of that, like we 1153 01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:43,120 Speaker 1: have we have texts from council members calling um, those 1154 01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,480 Speaker 1: who do those who do fouturing and ask and park 1155 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,680 Speaker 1: problem children, um and saying that it's a shame that 1156 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:50,640 Speaker 1: the problem children have ruined it for the rest of 1157 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 1: the class. We have. We have one saying like, you know, 1158 01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,560 Speaker 1: probably if if we go ahead, we city council go 1159 01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,040 Speaker 1: ahead with this, with this ordinance, there will be a 1160 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,160 Speaker 1: lot of protests and a lot of pushbacks, which of 1161 01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,000 Speaker 1: course there was once it came out. UM. And we 1162 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,200 Speaker 1: have the other council members saying like, yeah, that might 1163 01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,840 Speaker 1: be UM, but if permitting is the only way to 1164 01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:15,360 Speaker 1: get them to stop, then so be it. And any 1165 01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,400 Speaker 1: I mean I read that, and I have a variety 1166 01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 1: of reactions, but mostly just like a kind of nauseous 1167 01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:28,560 Speaker 1: disappointment UM. In And this is not true of all 1168 01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,520 Speaker 1: council UM, because some of some some folks have tried 1169 01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:37,600 Speaker 1: to like understand the gap being filled by folks who 1170 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,240 Speaker 1: give out food and gear in a park. UM. And 1171 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,000 Speaker 1: I think some of the council and have recognize it 1172 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:46,560 Speaker 1: as a gap um that is being filled. And I 1173 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:53,200 Speaker 1: think some are are so aware of what it says 1174 01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:56,720 Speaker 1: about the city that folks have to show up in 1175 01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,040 Speaker 1: a park and give out food and gear and there's 1176 01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,200 Speaker 1: never enough of either. Um. They're so aware of what 1177 01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:05,840 Speaker 1: that lays there, about the abandonment that the city practices 1178 01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,440 Speaker 1: of those who live here, that they can only see that, 1179 01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,720 Speaker 1: and they can only be angry with us, right and 1180 01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,960 Speaker 1: call us problem children like forty three. Yeah, well you 1181 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:18,560 Speaker 1: can see the sort of like like the kind of 1182 01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,600 Speaker 1: just like petty dictatorship mind that they've gotten themselves into. 1183 01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,840 Speaker 1: Were like they can't see the people who like you know, 1184 01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,240 Speaker 1: nominally they're supposed to be serving, right, but like, okay, 1185 01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,080 Speaker 1: we know how far that goes, but they can't see 1186 01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,320 Speaker 1: like you as anything other than just like a child. 1187 01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 1: Because that's the kind of like this is the sort 1188 01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,400 Speaker 1: of dictator brain that they've that they've from like holding 1189 01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:42,200 Speaker 1: this power. It's it kind of reminds me of like 1190 01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,680 Speaker 1: how you see with the fourteenth he said, like the 1191 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,560 Speaker 1: state is me and therefore a tax on my reputation 1192 01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,560 Speaker 1: or like a tax against the state. Like yeah, that's 1193 01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,320 Speaker 1: how it feels like you're being treated us by making 1194 01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,440 Speaker 1: them look bad. And I don't know if you saw 1195 01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:01,680 Speaker 1: this also in there, but um on the day that 1196 01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:06,200 Speaker 1: the arrests happen. So so those discussions about the ordinance 1197 01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,240 Speaker 1: were I think a little earlier in January that we 1198 01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,800 Speaker 1: should actually too that. Um, but there's a there's one 1199 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,960 Speaker 1: that came right on the day of the first arrests 1200 01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:20,880 Speaker 1: for felany lettering that um or someone asks like can 1201 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 1: those arrested be banned from certain places? Um? And and 1202 01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:32,000 Speaker 1: we know now yes, but it is it's a lot 1203 01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,320 Speaker 1: to see that. It's a lot to see what looks, um, 1204 01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,640 Speaker 1: what looks so deliberately like depriving us of a sorry 1205 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:46,000 Speaker 1: to be in a perk? Yeah? Yeah? And so where 1206 01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,840 Speaker 1: is where's the five you are going to trial? Yeah? 1207 01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,840 Speaker 1: Unknown number of people are banned from parks in Nashville. Yes, yes. 1208 01:06:56,200 --> 01:07:01,560 Speaker 1: My understanding is that someone has been told, um, oh, 1209 01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:05,320 Speaker 1: we don't keep records of that, which also doesn't make 1210 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,520 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Yeah, how can you force a 1211 01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:09,919 Speaker 1: bath if we don't have a record of who's bay? Yeah, 1212 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,840 Speaker 1: and I shouldn't be quoted on that, but um, but 1213 01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,720 Speaker 1: my understanding is that, like, um, is that that has 1214 01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,160 Speaker 1: been the It's like, oh no, there aren't records that 1215 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:20,919 Speaker 1: we can that can be made public about that, because 1216 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,400 Speaker 1: there's some police aren't for records. UM do that just 1217 01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 1: seems like that's just just like incredibly bizarre secret police shit. 1218 01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:29,440 Speaker 1: Of like, yeah, I know we have like we have 1219 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:31,880 Speaker 1: we have lists that don't exist of people who are 1220 01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,160 Speaker 1: banned from spaces and we won't tell you what they 1221 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,960 Speaker 1: are because I don't existe. Yeah, you'll find out when 1222 01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:39,840 Speaker 1: this what team comes from behind the swings and yeah 1223 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:47,200 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah terrible. So yeah, you're banned from the park, 1224 01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:51,840 Speaker 1: you're facing you're going to trial. Yeah, five of us 1225 01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:57,040 Speaker 1: um have been have been scheduled for trial and the 1226 01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,520 Speaker 1: other folks UM have been kind of it's called taken 1227 01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,440 Speaker 1: off the calendar, so they don't have nothing's dismissed um 1228 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,000 Speaker 1: but um, but they're not scheduled. There's no there's no 1229 01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,520 Speaker 1: next quart date for them. Okay, so when when will 1230 01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:13,520 Speaker 1: you if you don't mind saying, when would your trial 1231 01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:15,840 Speaker 1: date be? Our trial date right now is set for 1232 01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:19,680 Speaker 1: February twenty seventh. Well okay, so you're coming up, it's 1233 01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,840 Speaker 1: coming right up. Yeah, that's tough. We'll make sure we 1234 01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:27,360 Speaker 1: get this out before then. How can people support you, 1235 01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:32,160 Speaker 1: support the work that you uh not doing in parks anymore? 1236 01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,639 Speaker 1: How can people help you through this? I'm sure it's 1237 01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:39,800 Speaker 1: a really stressful trial prices, Yeah, thank you for asking. Um, 1238 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:46,479 Speaker 1: so we post updates in a few different places. UM, 1239 01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:50,439 Speaker 1: But we don't have our own Instagram right now because 1240 01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:56,160 Speaker 1: we're we just don't. But our our defendant statements get 1241 01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,280 Speaker 1: released in a few different places, including UM at a 1242 01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:05,280 Speaker 1: V survival on Instagram. We also have a website where 1243 01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:07,680 Speaker 1: we always post our own statements and also all the 1244 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,520 Speaker 1: press that comes out about us, and that is abl 1245 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:18,920 Speaker 1: Solidarity dot no blogs dot org. We have a VENMO 1246 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:23,480 Speaker 1: which is used that those funds are used for attorney 1247 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:29,320 Speaker 1: fees and and frankly, like you know when someone loses 1248 01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,639 Speaker 1: housing or their car breaks down and they have had 1249 01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:35,479 Speaker 1: trouble finding employment because they have fell any lettering churches 1250 01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:37,800 Speaker 1: against them, and it's also used for material needs in 1251 01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:43,280 Speaker 1: that way, and that is a VL defendant fund And 1252 01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,840 Speaker 1: all that's actually on the website too. You can find 1253 01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:50,599 Speaker 1: those UM. And honestly, it matters so much that people 1254 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,760 Speaker 1: just know this is happening, you know, when I tell 1255 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,760 Speaker 1: people in Ashville, like more people know now than did before. UM, 1256 01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:59,840 Speaker 1: when I tell people outside of Asheville, there's very much 1257 01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:03,400 Speaker 1: like I thought about coming there. I heard it was cool. 1258 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:08,479 Speaker 1: It's like they do want those who make not just 1259 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,960 Speaker 1: like a living from tourism but those who make tons 1260 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:13,840 Speaker 1: of money from tourism are certainly invested in you thinking 1261 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,559 Speaker 1: that it's really cool and tell me to spend your 1262 01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:17,560 Speaker 1: money here. And it's not cool in the ways that 1263 01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:19,479 Speaker 1: they want you to think it's cool. It is cool 1264 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,080 Speaker 1: because neighbors show up for each other and you can 1265 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,240 Speaker 1: come here and we'll talk to you about that. But 1266 01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,559 Speaker 1: there's a way that, like people knowing what this place 1267 01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:31,040 Speaker 1: is really like does matter. And there's a way that honestly, 1268 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:35,000 Speaker 1: people just like sending us like they're beautiful energy and 1269 01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:39,120 Speaker 1: hope really matters too, Like that actually that actually really 1270 01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,400 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. So they can send us through beautiful energy 1271 01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:45,040 Speaker 1: and hope and material contributions as they might have them. Yeah, 1272 01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure people will because horrifically fucked up. I wanted 1273 01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:54,320 Speaker 1: to ask, what is the sentence range for felony littering? Yeah, 1274 01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:00,839 Speaker 1: so it's the lowest class of felony. As it happens 1275 01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:04,040 Speaker 1: none of us have any criminalstery. Yeah, we'd be facing 1276 01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,559 Speaker 1: felony probation and so that could that there's a range 1277 01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:12,280 Speaker 1: there of whether that probation is supervised or unsupervised. Um, 1278 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:14,840 Speaker 1: there's a range of how long it would be there's 1279 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,799 Speaker 1: a range um of restitution in terms of community service, 1280 01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:24,120 Speaker 1: um and and I actually don't have the paper in 1281 01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:25,599 Speaker 1: front of me that says what the range of those 1282 01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:27,639 Speaker 1: things are, but I feel like it's eight twelve months 1283 01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,080 Speaker 1: on probation um and a lot of that is simply 1284 01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:37,080 Speaker 1: at the discretion of incentencing um and um And I 1285 01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,439 Speaker 1: think that that there are some puzzible restrictions on just 1286 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:46,360 Speaker 1: like being able to leave the state. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1287 01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:49,840 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, probation. Sorry, christ Like, this is fully 1288 01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,280 Speaker 1: fucking sent me now. Because a guy, a man called 1289 01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:56,439 Speaker 1: Robert Wilson in San Diego was arrested for hate crimes 1290 01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,679 Speaker 1: because he assaulted his gay neighbor. Since he was arrested, 1291 01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,479 Speaker 1: he's riven around San Diego and La dressed as a Nazi, 1292 01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:06,560 Speaker 1: sometimes with horrifically anti semitic slogan. Has just left the 1293 01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:14,200 Speaker 1: country and is living in Poland because because fucking like somehow, sorry, 1294 01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,960 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I love it. This is fully fully sent 1295 01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:23,960 Speaker 1: me now too. Yeah, yeah, what is wrong with this ship? 1296 01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah there's something else you wanted to get to you? Yeah, 1297 01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,360 Speaker 1: I think I wanted to name so, you know, people 1298 01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,360 Speaker 1: are so in a way like I wish I had 1299 01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,439 Speaker 1: a super cut of everyone I've ever said the word 1300 01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:39,280 Speaker 1: felony lettering too, just like their faces over and over again. 1301 01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,360 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll come to Asheville and just vox pops. Yeah, 1302 01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,000 Speaker 1: so there's a way that you know, of course that's 1303 01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:49,479 Speaker 1: just like and with you add on eating and a betting, 1304 01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,000 Speaker 1: which we've all been bumped up to felony lettering but 1305 01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,640 Speaker 1: or sort of but but but the myst miyor is 1306 01:12:54,720 --> 01:13:04,120 Speaker 1: conspiracy to commit no, yeah, what's next greco charge? Yes, 1307 01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:08,120 Speaker 1: so so um so on its face, you know, it 1308 01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,400 Speaker 1: has this ring of absurdity, and of course like it is. 1309 01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,600 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the press about us, you know, 1310 01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,360 Speaker 1: they'll go talk to someone at the School of Government 1311 01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:18,360 Speaker 1: who says, like, well, this is baffling and at the 1312 01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:21,360 Speaker 1: very least seems like a misapplication of the statute, which 1313 01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:26,640 Speaker 1: is about um huge amounts of waste often being like 1314 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:31,160 Speaker 1: dumped by businesses. Um. But I think it's it's it's 1315 01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,240 Speaker 1: telling that a couple maybe a month or two ago, 1316 01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,200 Speaker 1: there was an article in the Citizen Times, a local paper, 1317 01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:43,960 Speaker 1: about US and a company, Waste pro which had dumped 1318 01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:49,680 Speaker 1: um an entire dumpster's worth of trash um. Now I'm 1319 01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:54,920 Speaker 1: like out somewhere outside of um where it should have 1320 01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,240 Speaker 1: been like in the in the landfillm um. And but 1321 01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:00,800 Speaker 1: it was all about like how actually they had followed 1322 01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:03,040 Speaker 1: procedure because there was like maybe a little bit of 1323 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:04,840 Speaker 1: a battery fire or something. There was something going on 1324 01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:06,439 Speaker 1: with it where they they weren't supposed to bring it in, 1325 01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:09,600 Speaker 1: so they just had to dump it. But in the 1326 01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:15,080 Speaker 1: course of this article, they interviewed a lot of people 1327 01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:17,360 Speaker 1: about like, well, what's going on with like litter in 1328 01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:19,479 Speaker 1: general and like big amounts of litter, and our case 1329 01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:22,439 Speaker 1: was never mentioned, but they did talk to some folks 1330 01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:26,600 Speaker 1: who who do river clean up, an organization called GreenWorks, 1331 01:14:27,080 --> 01:14:30,640 Speaker 1: and that person said, you know, sometimes there are like 1332 01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:35,240 Speaker 1: there's huge amounts of dumping that happens, and we call 1333 01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:38,680 Speaker 1: the city and they say, yeah, that's illegal, but we 1334 01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:44,400 Speaker 1: don't actually prosecute that. And like seeing you know, that's 1335 01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:46,320 Speaker 1: the sort of thing also that seeing in print, I'm 1336 01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:53,080 Speaker 1: just like, what what sort of strange like dystopian novel 1337 01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:55,400 Speaker 1: am I living in where the city is so upfront 1338 01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,080 Speaker 1: that like, oh no, like we wouldn't prosecute felony littering, 1339 01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:06,920 Speaker 1: but when it comes to aiming to disrupt a kind 1340 01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:11,200 Speaker 1: of community care and political speech that they don't like. Um, 1341 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:16,280 Speaker 1: they're willing to expend an incredible amount of resources on it, 1342 01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, like the number of resources that have gone 1343 01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,240 Speaker 1: into this would have funded like sanctuary camping with sanitation 1344 01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:27,000 Speaker 1: services like for years, for years, and you know, I 1345 01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:29,160 Speaker 1: think you alluded though maybe this is in the future 1346 01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,880 Speaker 1: of the podcast, like to the way the City of 1347 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:35,720 Speaker 1: Asheville or our lawyers have been clear that when you 1348 01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:38,360 Speaker 1: when you look at the City of Asheville's like public 1349 01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:44,680 Speaker 1: apronouncements and the way that that they talk about um homelessness, 1350 01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:47,439 Speaker 1: it does seem like, oh wow, we're really we're really 1351 01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:50,920 Speaker 1: trying to get on this UM. But at a recent 1352 01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:58,760 Speaker 1: meeting where a consultant group often referred to as like yeah, 1353 01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:01,360 Speaker 1: that other that that consultant group from now because it's 1354 01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:04,479 Speaker 1: happened to over and over again, presented findings about like 1355 01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,479 Speaker 1: what should actually be done to end unsheltered homelessness. Here 1356 01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,840 Speaker 1: presented finding to the city council and accounting commissioners. No 1357 01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,000 Speaker 1: one was allowed to talk except for this huge meeting. 1358 01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:17,760 Speaker 1: No one was allowed to talk except for council members 1359 01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,519 Speaker 1: and commissioners and those who were presenting. But a man 1360 01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,320 Speaker 1: who actually has experience, was experience with homelessness, got up 1361 01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,960 Speaker 1: and talked anyways, and he was interrupted by the mayor 1362 01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,439 Speaker 1: and like that's telling in its own right. That's that's 1363 01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,720 Speaker 1: telling in its own right. Also telling is that later 1364 01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:41,040 Speaker 1: also not allowed to speak. A local pastor got up 1365 01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:44,840 Speaker 1: and said, you know, I saw that happen. You know, 1366 01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:48,280 Speaker 1: like what we need to be doing is actually listening 1367 01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,800 Speaker 1: to the folks who've experienced this and like data, yes, 1368 01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,160 Speaker 1: we need data, but we also need to like actually 1369 01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:56,240 Speaker 1: listen to the voices of what's going on. And he 1370 01:16:56,400 --> 01:17:02,200 Speaker 1: used the phrase, which I think was echoing the man 1371 01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:05,000 Speaker 1: who had spoken earlier, spiritual death, and said that this 1372 01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,200 Speaker 1: he thinks as a pastor, that Ashville is in a 1373 01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,960 Speaker 1: moment of spiritual death. And in a way, that's why 1374 01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,360 Speaker 1: I say, like we need you, We need your material 1375 01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:19,599 Speaker 1: contributions to us as defendants to collective care. Like when 1376 01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,160 Speaker 1: we have extra money in that defendive fund, we just 1377 01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,120 Speaker 1: give it away. Some people can buy more tents, and 1378 01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:27,560 Speaker 1: we need like we need some hope because Ashville is 1379 01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:34,080 Speaker 1: in this momentum where it's as a city, it's making 1380 01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,960 Speaker 1: choices that seem so misaligned, not just with like the 1381 01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:40,640 Speaker 1: image that it would like to sell to tourists, but 1382 01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,280 Speaker 1: like with the people who live here and are actually 1383 01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:47,920 Speaker 1: like about it day to day in a neighbor's caring 1384 01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:52,320 Speaker 1: for a neighbor's way, like really misaligned with what we 1385 01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,840 Speaker 1: actually want and what we actually are capable of offering 1386 01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:59,680 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, yeah, it is deeply sad, but like 1387 01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:03,280 Speaker 1: we've created this abstraction of society which is being entirely 1388 01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:06,760 Speaker 1: anti social, like no one wants, no one, ye, no 1389 01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:09,880 Speaker 1: reasonable person would do that, But we've got the state, 1390 01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:12,640 Speaker 1: which in theory acts on our behalf and is doing it. 1391 01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, which also is probably to editorialize for a second. 1392 01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,639 Speaker 1: Often people will make this argument, I see it specifically 1393 01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:24,600 Speaker 1: around gun laws, but with other laws, to where this 1394 01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:26,640 Speaker 1: law won't always be enforced and only use it if 1395 01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:28,320 Speaker 1: they need it if they have to get a bad person. 1396 01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:32,559 Speaker 1: They will use it if anybody threatens their interest, their 1397 01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,800 Speaker 1: shit right, Like it was extensively mobilized for a ghost 1398 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,680 Speaker 1: gun law here, which made some bizarre things illegal, like 1399 01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:43,519 Speaker 1: the bank stick which you use for spear fishing, is 1400 01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:45,800 Speaker 1: now a ghost gun and a felony, and like there 1401 01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:47,800 Speaker 1: were definitely boomers who have dozens of those in their 1402 01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:51,280 Speaker 1: garage right and don't keep up on local audiences and 1403 01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,599 Speaker 1: are now, in theory at risk of committing a felony. 1404 01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,120 Speaker 1: And then obviously the response to that from the councilors, oh, well, 1405 01:18:56,160 --> 01:19:00,320 Speaker 1: we wouldn't charge them, like who we can't us the 1406 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:03,400 Speaker 1: state to be benevolent when it's your experience is shown 1407 01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:07,519 Speaker 1: it's anything but and you know we And I can 1408 01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,320 Speaker 1: say this personally because I've spoken I've spoken to people 1409 01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:13,800 Speaker 1: in city government or in state government who I've just 1410 01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:16,599 Speaker 1: said like, hey, did you know this is happening? Um? 1411 01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:24,400 Speaker 1: And and they're clear about how Um sure it sounds 1412 01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,920 Speaker 1: nettie but the city but like that, but that that 1413 01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:33,320 Speaker 1: we as a group have been painted as particularly dangerous. 1414 01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,479 Speaker 1: And that part to me is like, I mean, don't 1415 01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:39,000 Speaker 1: do this to anybody, you know, don't do it to anybody. 1416 01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:43,439 Speaker 1: But the part where where what's going on is like, 1417 01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:49,400 Speaker 1: it's is this strange justification, um, with the idea that 1418 01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,479 Speaker 1: that we are dangerous people who deserve to be taken 1419 01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:55,320 Speaker 1: you know, who need to be taken out of a part, 1420 01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:57,040 Speaker 1: who need to not be allowed to be in a park. 1421 01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:03,879 Speaker 1: You know is particularly easily disproved by anyone who actually 1422 01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,200 Speaker 1: like hangs out with us, knows what, knows who we 1423 01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:09,640 Speaker 1: are and what we've done. But not when it's just 1424 01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:12,439 Speaker 1: like a weird whisper campaign in the in the halls 1425 01:20:12,439 --> 01:20:15,160 Speaker 1: of city government, like oh no, they're bad, Like they're 1426 01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:18,800 Speaker 1: just bad. Um. Like we we've heard the lies that 1427 01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:20,680 Speaker 1: they've told about us, some of them we have in 1428 01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:25,080 Speaker 1: um in you know, public records requests like um that 1429 01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,120 Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about. But it's it's a it's 1430 01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:32,360 Speaker 1: a really strange thing to be to be painted that way. Yeah, yeah, 1431 01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:35,439 Speaker 1: it's design. Again. I'm sorry it's happening to you. And 1432 01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,719 Speaker 1: so I think to wrap up, maybe again, you could 1433 01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:44,360 Speaker 1: just give that venmost people can support materially and yeah, 1434 01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, if there's any other social media account where 1435 01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:49,280 Speaker 1: people can follow along, where people can send their support 1436 01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:54,320 Speaker 1: and best wishes, that yeah, that's great. Um our venmo 1437 01:20:54,600 --> 01:21:01,599 Speaker 1: is a VL defendant fund and um yeah you can 1438 01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:04,640 Speaker 1: so on Instagram. We're easy to get you through a 1439 01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:08,960 Speaker 1: VL survival and there's a way to contact us through 1440 01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:10,600 Speaker 1: our website. We can have a little we have a 1441 01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,320 Speaker 1: little email. I'll be so cute to get some supportive emails, 1442 01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:18,720 Speaker 1: and that website is a VL solidarity dot no blogs 1443 01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:23,560 Speaker 1: dot org. Amazing. Thank you all so much, thank you 1444 01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:25,840 Speaker 1: for giving us your time. I'm sorry that you're dealing 1445 01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:30,479 Speaker 1: with the fairy US state bullshit. All right, So that 1446 01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:32,640 Speaker 1: wraps up. Are into you with Sarah. Tomorrow we'll be 1447 01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:36,439 Speaker 1: talking to Maniba from the ACOU, the American Civil Liberties Union, 1448 01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,040 Speaker 1: and he will be giving us a legal perspective and 1449 01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:41,479 Speaker 1: some more insight into this case. We'll look forward to 1450 01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:59,560 Speaker 1: talking to you then. Hi everyone, it's James again. I 1451 01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:02,080 Speaker 1: just want to remind you that this is part two 1452 01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:04,120 Speaker 1: of a two parta and if you haven't listened to 1453 01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:06,320 Speaker 1: yesterday's podcast, today's might not make a lot of sense, 1454 01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,680 Speaker 1: So I would suggest starting there. Obviously, you know of 1455 01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:11,519 Speaker 1: your own lifetill you want, but you're going to understand 1456 01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:13,800 Speaker 1: today's a lot more if you start with yesterday's. Today 1457 01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:16,120 Speaker 1: we speaking to Menieba with the ACLU about the legal 1458 01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:20,240 Speaker 1: response to some of the bizarre things City of Asheville 1459 01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,840 Speaker 1: has been doing. If you hear reference to Pip in 1460 01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:25,679 Speaker 1: this episode, that's because Pip is another of the activists. 1461 01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:27,479 Speaker 1: They weren't able to make our call but we're going 1462 01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,400 Speaker 1: to be speaking to them as well in our ongoing 1463 01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:32,360 Speaker 1: coverage of this. So hope you enjoy today's episode know 1464 01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:35,360 Speaker 1: that we'll keep you updated as this moves forward. All right, 1465 01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:39,800 Speaker 1: so our first guest today is Niba and Minnie. But 1466 01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:42,360 Speaker 1: would you like to introduce yourself explain your relationship to 1467 01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:46,360 Speaker 1: what we're talking about today. Yeah. Sure, So my name 1468 01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:49,680 Speaker 1: is Maniba Talister. I'm a stop attorney with the ACLU 1469 01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:54,479 Speaker 1: Narth CAREL I know, and I represent some of these 1470 01:22:54,560 --> 01:23:01,400 Speaker 1: wonderful folks that you'll be talking to actor me and UM, 1471 01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:06,400 Speaker 1: it's unfortunate that we met this way, um, but you know, 1472 01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be working with them. So basically I 1473 01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:13,400 Speaker 1: can go into it or do you want to ask 1474 01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:16,760 Speaker 1: me questions about it? Or I think it'd be great 1475 01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:18,840 Speaker 1: if you could start off by sort of walking us 1476 01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,800 Speaker 1: through how Mutual Aid seems to have met with this 1477 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:28,760 Speaker 1: bizarre prosecution. Yeah, of course. UM, so we got connected 1478 01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:34,479 Speaker 1: to um, you know our now clients, UM, this group 1479 01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:40,560 Speaker 1: of individuals whom you know have been doing important advocacy 1480 01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,799 Speaker 1: and rachel Aid work on the house of on house folks, 1481 01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:48,240 Speaker 1: um in ethel and UM we were connected by this 1482 01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:52,680 Speaker 1: other organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of 1483 01:23:52,720 --> 01:24:00,320 Speaker 1: filled in quickly about how this group of people were 1484 01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:05,160 Speaker 1: not only banned from perks, but these bands were based 1485 01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:12,000 Speaker 1: on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering um, which 1486 01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, it sounds as crazy as it is. Um. 1487 01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:26,960 Speaker 1: So so yeah, you know, I think, um, my colleagues 1488 01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:32,960 Speaker 1: and I at the ECLU, we were eager to talk 1489 01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:36,519 Speaker 1: to these folks and learn more about what happened and 1490 01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:42,040 Speaker 1: see what we can do and um uh and you know, 1491 01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,439 Speaker 1: start talking about some of the legal issues that um 1492 01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:51,640 Speaker 1: that arise from when a city tries to ban a 1493 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:55,200 Speaker 1: large group of people from from one of the few 1494 01:24:55,640 --> 01:25:00,400 Speaker 1: places that they have to convene and to protest um 1495 01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:04,519 Speaker 1: and demonstrate, which you know, one of the first things 1496 01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:07,600 Speaker 1: I learned in law school is like how or like 1497 01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:11,360 Speaker 1: one of the first things I think I learned as 1498 01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:16,160 Speaker 1: someone living in the US, like you you always hear 1499 01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:19,960 Speaker 1: kids say, oh, I have free speech, like you know, 1500 01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:26,800 Speaker 1: free speeches. So it's such a central part of being 1501 01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,880 Speaker 1: in this or like growing up in this country and 1502 01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:34,320 Speaker 1: being a citizen or a member of this country. Is 1503 01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:38,760 Speaker 1: just the way that is thrown around, sometimes inaccurately, but 1504 01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:45,280 Speaker 1: people generally know that that speech should be protected and 1505 01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:52,599 Speaker 1: cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by the government. UM, 1506 01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:54,760 Speaker 1: not by like you know, your mom. You don't have 1507 01:25:56,360 --> 01:25:58,640 Speaker 1: free speech in front of your mom. Like that's not 1508 01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:04,600 Speaker 1: that I learned that. Um. Yeah when I took my 1509 01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:08,040 Speaker 1: being an American test, I took I became a citisen 1510 01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:11,120 Speaker 1: a couple of months ago. And there's like only like 1511 01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:13,000 Speaker 1: fifty questions they can ask you, And I think two 1512 01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:16,680 Speaker 1: of them are like, what it's free speech? Like like yeah, yeah, 1513 01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:19,720 Speaker 1: can you claim free speech when you get banned from 1514 01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:26,320 Speaker 1: Twitter dot com? Like yeah, it's something, Yeah, that's yeah. 1515 01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:30,559 Speaker 1: And I think, um, I think you know it's UM 1516 01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:37,559 Speaker 1: it's absurd to criminalize protest, of course, UM, but it's 1517 01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:44,200 Speaker 1: it's also like equally as troubling to take away this 1518 01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:50,840 Speaker 1: this important public space from people that UM, you know, 1519 01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:53,559 Speaker 1: especially in a city like Ashville, if you've been there, 1520 01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:56,320 Speaker 1: it's one of the few public spaces that people can 1521 01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:02,400 Speaker 1: convene and um get together and enjoy each other's company. UM. 1522 01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:07,080 Speaker 1: You know that that being separate from also one of 1523 01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,880 Speaker 1: the few places that you can protest and and um 1524 01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:15,559 Speaker 1: engage and discussion about how to fix problems. So it's 1525 01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:21,960 Speaker 1: really troubling, um that the City of Bashville has had 1526 01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:25,320 Speaker 1: taken that route. So when the ACIL you got involved, 1527 01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,680 Speaker 1: we thought it would be best to list out some 1528 01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:33,160 Speaker 1: of these legal issues. UM. You know, I mentioned the 1529 01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:37,880 Speaker 1: First Amendment UM and free speech, but there are also 1530 01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:45,120 Speaker 1: a lot of procedural due process problems that um are 1531 01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:50,720 Speaker 1: issues that come up when you then folks from a park. Um. 1532 01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:53,680 Speaker 1: One of you know, one of the things that the 1533 01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:57,720 Speaker 1: city didn't do is provide proper notice. So a few 1534 01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:01,759 Speaker 1: of our clients never received notice that they were banned 1535 01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,360 Speaker 1: from the park, and you know, found out that they 1536 01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:09,360 Speaker 1: were banned either through the discovery process in their criminal 1537 01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:16,160 Speaker 1: cases or by doing like very intense investigation of their 1538 01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:20,479 Speaker 1: own which you know, that is not a that's just 1539 01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:25,200 Speaker 1: not okay, Like a city needs to you need to 1540 01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,960 Speaker 1: at this is like a very basic thing, right, notice 1541 01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:34,960 Speaker 1: and hearing. Those are the tenets of procedural due process. 1542 01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:40,400 Speaker 1: And the city fails there. The city then sails again 1543 01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:48,799 Speaker 1: at providing hearing and providing opportunity to appeal these bands, 1544 01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:51,960 Speaker 1: Like there is no pre deprivation hearing. First of all, 1545 01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,920 Speaker 1: like the bands, once our clients received them, they're banned. 1546 01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:59,639 Speaker 1: They're banned from the parks and cannot go and don't 1547 01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:05,040 Speaker 1: how didn't have any opportunity to defend um why they 1548 01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:08,519 Speaker 1: shouldn't be banned or be heard about why they shouldn't 1549 01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:13,000 Speaker 1: be banned before that band happened, which is, you know, 1550 01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:16,599 Speaker 1: it's it's not okay. I think a pre deprivation hearing 1551 01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:22,760 Speaker 1: is really important when you're taking away an interest, like 1552 01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:27,560 Speaker 1: like the First Amendment interests that I laid out, and 1553 01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:33,200 Speaker 1: and then the hearing that was provided was problematic in 1554 01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:37,920 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. For one, these were very short 1555 01:29:38,160 --> 01:29:43,120 Speaker 1: cursory hearing um that lasted from I want to say 1556 01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:45,760 Speaker 1: like five to thirty minutes, but I'll let Sarah and 1557 01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:53,759 Speaker 1: Tip confirm. And they they had people from Ashville Police 1558 01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:59,320 Speaker 1: Department who are you know, arguably also involved in the 1559 01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:02,920 Speaker 1: criminal case as that that several of our clients are 1560 01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:09,320 Speaker 1: still sattling through. They were not allowed to ask questions, 1561 01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:13,040 Speaker 1: and you know, several of our clients do not have 1562 01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:18,679 Speaker 1: the resources to have proper legal representations, so it's sometimes 1563 01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:23,080 Speaker 1: our clients were there alone and had to fend for 1564 01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:29,400 Speaker 1: themselves and navigate that tricky area of not saying something 1565 01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:34,400 Speaker 1: that could hurt you in your criminal case, and you know, 1566 01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:38,960 Speaker 1: the hearing was just a mess in all of the ways. 1567 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:44,719 Speaker 1: How does the city like legally justify banning someone from parks? 1568 01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:48,120 Speaker 1: I guess they're like a way which they can do that. 1569 01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:52,280 Speaker 1: So they have this policy called the Restricted Access to 1570 01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:57,000 Speaker 1: City Parks falls policy, and it is I think we 1571 01:30:57,040 --> 01:31:00,959 Speaker 1: should call it the park bound policy. They basically allows 1572 01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:07,439 Speaker 1: the city to to ban folks from parks based on 1573 01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:14,280 Speaker 1: certain violations of I think the categories are city park rules, 1574 01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:20,840 Speaker 1: city Parks and Recreation Department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, 1575 01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:28,080 Speaker 1: and federal laws. So what's interesting is there is no 1576 01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:34,320 Speaker 1: there's nowhere in the policy that says when a person 1577 01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:40,880 Speaker 1: has committed or that defines what a violation of any 1578 01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:43,360 Speaker 1: of these rules are like. Is that a conviction? Is 1579 01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:48,519 Speaker 1: that a formal like citation there the policy does not 1580 01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:54,760 Speaker 1: provide that. So this is important, I think, especially here 1581 01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:58,960 Speaker 1: where our clients, none of them, or actually I shouldn't 1582 01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:01,800 Speaker 1: say none of them. Three three of our clients have 1583 01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:08,760 Speaker 1: pled to lesser misdemeanor charges, but everyone else has an 1584 01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:13,839 Speaker 1: open case and they have not been formally convicted of anything. 1585 01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:20,240 Speaker 1: And so it's it's strange that you know, you can 1586 01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:25,679 Speaker 1: ban someone based off of the steleny charge that hasn't 1587 01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:32,519 Speaker 1: even been fully litigated. Yeah, have they banned there like 1588 01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:35,080 Speaker 1: a record of the city banning people from parks or 1589 01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:36,960 Speaker 1: have they just like dug this one up from the 1590 01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:44,479 Speaker 1: bowels of legislation to ban these people. Oh, that's a 1591 01:32:44,600 --> 01:32:48,120 Speaker 1: really interesting question, and I'd love to know the answer myself. 1592 01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:51,680 Speaker 1: We did submit a public records request to try to 1593 01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:56,679 Speaker 1: figure out if they have, but I imagine the city 1594 01:32:56,840 --> 01:33:00,280 Speaker 1: is not going to want to tell us. And I think, Sarah, 1595 01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,479 Speaker 1: you could speak to this later. But I don't think 1596 01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:08,680 Speaker 1: they have. They. I think they've rejected PRRs that you 1597 01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:14,080 Speaker 1: all have done and have not provided that elusive restricted 1598 01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:18,080 Speaker 1: access list which they have of like folks that they've 1599 01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:21,400 Speaker 1: spanned from the perks and and maybe that list is 1600 01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:27,240 Speaker 1: just you know, our clients, which yeah, I mean, maybe 1601 01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:30,320 Speaker 1: they have. I don't know what's worse, like if they 1602 01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:32,719 Speaker 1: have a parks black list and they're just not notifying 1603 01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:36,240 Speaker 1: people until like they send a swat team after them, 1604 01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:39,479 Speaker 1: or if it's if it's only people who are helping 1605 01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:41,240 Speaker 1: unhouse people and they just don't want to admit that. 1606 01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:44,720 Speaker 1: Both those are pretty dark on the topic of weird 1607 01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:49,599 Speaker 1: legal things. What on earth is felony littering? I'd love 1608 01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:54,760 Speaker 1: to know. I'd love to know what felony littering is, because, um, 1609 01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:58,200 Speaker 1: I'll tell you this. When I told my partner, like, 1610 01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:00,639 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, did you know they're something called 1611 01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:04,240 Speaker 1: felony littering? And he's like, I hope that's when corporations 1612 01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:09,400 Speaker 1: get punished for, you know, dumping toxic waste into the sea. 1613 01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:15,720 Speaker 1: But no, it's apparently when community members come together for 1614 01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:25,000 Speaker 1: a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind, which, um, 1615 01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:29,160 Speaker 1: you know that's uh. I think it's really telling that 1616 01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:37,640 Speaker 1: the city has chosen to to prosecute folks on this 1617 01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:43,960 Speaker 1: like felony littering charge, which you know hasn't I think 1618 01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:47,639 Speaker 1: in the past ten years there's only been one felony 1619 01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:52,120 Speaker 1: littering case out of Buncombe County, where Ashville is Okay, 1620 01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:57,000 Speaker 1: So I think that's really telling, and I think it's 1621 01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:01,840 Speaker 1: it's really troubling that's city of Aashville seems to be 1622 01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:06,439 Speaker 1: really taking out a position in silencing speech. It does 1623 01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:11,400 Speaker 1: not like yeah, yeah, go ahead, No, they just seem 1624 01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:13,639 Speaker 1: to be taking like the most bizarre and ran around 1625 01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:16,880 Speaker 1: the first amendment that they can. Yeah, it must be 1626 01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:18,280 Speaker 1: a lot of munds. You a lot of like the 1627 01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:21,439 Speaker 1: Occupy era stuff where like all of these cities suddenly 1628 01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:24,679 Speaker 1: realized that like wait, hold on, these people can actually 1629 01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:28,320 Speaker 1: use a park for political activity. And then immediately like 1630 01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:31,200 Speaker 1: suddenly that all these like organizes started appearing where like 1631 01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:33,840 Speaker 1: everyone has to like clear out of the park by 1632 01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:37,320 Speaker 1: ten pms leaking clean it or something that eventually just 1633 01:35:37,400 --> 01:35:39,439 Speaker 1: were just like was used to force people out. And 1634 01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:41,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems like there's there's something interesting 1635 01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:44,639 Speaker 1: too about Like it seems like it's it's almost when 1636 01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:46,960 Speaker 1: whenever like a city government tries to something, because it 1637 01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:50,879 Speaker 1: seems like they always like immediately reach for sanitation ordinances. 1638 01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:54,280 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I was saying like that was that was 1639 01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:56,680 Speaker 1: like the big occupy thing, Like they're doing this here too, 1640 01:35:56,760 --> 01:35:59,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's I don't know. I think all around 1641 01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:05,040 Speaker 1: the country we're seeing the government fish out these weird 1642 01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:11,240 Speaker 1: ordinances and make new laws to criminalize poverty and um 1643 01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:18,080 Speaker 1: and to criminalize unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, 1644 01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:25,760 Speaker 1: unfortunately carries even in places like Ashville, UM that are 1645 01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:31,040 Speaker 1: seeing especially after COVID, you know, there's been a rising 1646 01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:37,320 Speaker 1: and house population everywhere, and so it's it's really upsetting, 1647 01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:41,720 Speaker 1: but it is the truth that these these ordinances and 1648 01:36:42,320 --> 01:36:46,040 Speaker 1: laws that are being fished out are being fished out 1649 01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:51,880 Speaker 1: to targets folks and um and new laws that lawmakers 1650 01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:54,559 Speaker 1: are creating. Now, I was thinking about this. I remembering 1651 01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:58,320 Speaker 1: there there's a whole sort of anthropological literature about like 1652 01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:02,920 Speaker 1: how colonial states use use like sanitation ordinances as a 1653 01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:06,240 Speaker 1: way to sort of destroy like indigenous public spaces and 1654 01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:09,240 Speaker 1: the places they colonize. And I guess, like, yeah, I 1655 01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:11,040 Speaker 1: don't know, Like there's there's a lot of sort of 1656 01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:16,600 Speaker 1: throughput I guess between like the sort of old like 1657 01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:21,479 Speaker 1: colonial government's regimes and the way that people still use 1658 01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:24,639 Speaker 1: sanitation is like the default way to sort of cleanse 1659 01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:28,120 Speaker 1: people out of public spaces. I think it's interesting how 1660 01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:32,600 Speaker 1: like um an analogy one can make me visit there 1661 01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:35,240 Speaker 1: are people with rights and people without rights, even when 1662 01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:38,320 Speaker 1: in theory we all have rights, and like this attempt 1663 01:37:38,439 --> 01:37:40,880 Speaker 1: to sort of use sanitation to be like all of 1664 01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:43,240 Speaker 1: these people's rights don't matter what. They don't have those 1665 01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:46,960 Speaker 1: rights at all. Yeah, it's not not linked to the 1666 01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:55,240 Speaker 1: way like metropolits rural colonies. I think also just you know, 1667 01:37:55,560 --> 01:38:02,479 Speaker 1: going back to this position that the Ashville is taking. Um, 1668 01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:08,439 Speaker 1: what's really troubling is like the different angles that they're 1669 01:38:08,640 --> 01:38:12,760 Speaker 1: coming at this issue with. Like if you look at 1670 01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:15,920 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at some of the press 1671 01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:20,360 Speaker 1: releases and blog posts on the city's website about the 1672 01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:24,479 Speaker 1: house population, you might get a sense that they're trying 1673 01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:28,240 Speaker 1: to find solutions to address what they seem to acknowledge 1674 01:38:28,280 --> 01:38:32,240 Speaker 1: as a big problem. But then you know, on the 1675 01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:37,280 Speaker 1: flip side, you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment, 1676 01:38:37,560 --> 01:38:40,080 Speaker 1: and you know, these part funds. That's that's one of 1677 01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:44,479 Speaker 1: the ways that UM, the City of Aashville kind of 1678 01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:48,200 Speaker 1: indirectly is like no, please, like, let us do our thing. 1679 01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:51,519 Speaker 1: We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing. 1680 01:38:51,800 --> 01:38:57,439 Speaker 1: Like we're trying our hardest. You know, that's rich on 1681 01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:01,519 Speaker 1: its own, but you know, there's so there's a felony 1682 01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:05,320 Speaker 1: littering charges, there's the park bands, and then you know, 1683 01:39:05,479 --> 01:39:08,479 Speaker 1: alongside all of this, Like a few weeks ago, we 1684 01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:14,760 Speaker 1: followed the petition in Bunkham Truntium Superior Court petitioning for 1685 01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,840 Speaker 1: the release of police body camera footage of the arrest 1686 01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:23,240 Speaker 1: of two journalists for the release of um the footage 1687 01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:29,280 Speaker 1: that UM that shows the arrests of these journalists covering 1688 01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:36,120 Speaker 1: covering the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston 1689 01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:40,799 Speaker 1: Park on Christmas night in twenty twenty one, so around 1690 01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:45,640 Speaker 1: the same time that several of our clients, UM, you 1691 01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:48,640 Speaker 1: know are being hit with these felony charges and then 1692 01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:53,880 Speaker 1: shortly after with park bands and UM, the rest of 1693 01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:58,000 Speaker 1: journalists in a democracy is very or should be very 1694 01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:02,320 Speaker 1: rare and should be troubling. Uh. And these journalists, like 1695 01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:05,200 Speaker 1: just to give you some context, UM, we're not shy 1696 01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:08,000 Speaker 1: about their critique of the city and how it's handling 1697 01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:14,960 Speaker 1: done housed community. And UM that critique is protected by 1698 01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,280 Speaker 1: the First Amendment. The city of Asheville, I think, is 1699 01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:21,920 Speaker 1: just you know, doing its own thing when it's allowing 1700 01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:26,920 Speaker 1: arrests of journalists and and UM, the release of that 1701 01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:32,720 Speaker 1: body camera footage we think is important to m just 1702 01:40:33,120 --> 01:40:37,599 Speaker 1: show what happened, because that's that's that's kind of strange, 1703 01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:44,000 Speaker 1: like just in the same way that felony littering is strange. Yeah, 1704 01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:45,880 Speaker 1: it does seem like there is there is kind of 1705 01:40:45,920 --> 01:40:49,360 Speaker 1: a Yeah, bipassies and commitment to not wanting journalists to 1706 01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:52,240 Speaker 1: meddle with you, harassing and house people. It seems to 1707 01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:54,880 Speaker 1: be like very much a democrat thing is one of 1708 01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:58,240 Speaker 1: the Republican thing. What did were those journalists charged anything 1709 01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:04,680 Speaker 1: or were they dis arrested? They were also charged with UM, 1710 01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:11,439 Speaker 1: I want to say second degree trust pass UM. And 1711 01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:16,200 Speaker 1: they've been pretty vocal about UM their arrests and and 1712 01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:20,920 Speaker 1: UM and I think what's been happening. Like their names 1713 01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:28,400 Speaker 1: are uh, Veronica Quite and Matilda Bliss. UM. I'm not sure, 1714 01:41:28,479 --> 01:41:31,240 Speaker 1: Sarah if you want to add more to that, but UM, 1715 01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:37,360 Speaker 1: I think that's that's like another thread that's important to 1716 01:41:37,439 --> 01:41:39,840 Speaker 1: this story is like all of the different ways that 1717 01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:44,400 Speaker 1: Asheville is operating to silence folks and and and to 1718 01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:49,360 Speaker 1: continue doing what they're doing, which you know, in a 1719 01:41:49,840 --> 01:41:54,879 Speaker 1: like if you look at UM just their own narrative 1720 01:41:54,960 --> 01:41:58,240 Speaker 1: where they talk about, oh, yes, we've you know, evicted 1721 01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:03,600 Speaker 1: these folks as a success story, and you know, like 1722 01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:06,800 Speaker 1: they'll they'll maybe list like all of the hotels, like 1723 01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:10,559 Speaker 1: free hotel nights that UM, these folks got for one 1724 01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:15,479 Speaker 1: or two nights. But that's obviously not a sustainable solution 1725 01:42:15,880 --> 01:42:25,360 Speaker 1: to UM. To you know the plight of that community. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. 1726 01:42:25,400 --> 01:42:28,320 Speaker 1: I think sometimes things get done because things look good 1727 01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:30,320 Speaker 1: on a press release around them, because it gives anyone 1728 01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:35,439 Speaker 1: like longto Maxis to housing. So I wonder what's the situation. 1729 01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:39,439 Speaker 1: Several of your clients are now facing felony charges? Are serious? Right? 1730 01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:41,439 Speaker 1: If people maybe on in the US or don't realize, 1731 01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:44,200 Speaker 1: maybe you could explain, like a felony follows you around 1732 01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:48,479 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, right, Yeah, And and 1733 01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:53,160 Speaker 1: just to be clear where the AFLU is not defending 1734 01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:58,040 Speaker 1: m the on the criminal charges. Um, I think all 1735 01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:02,439 Speaker 1: of our clients have suffer representation for their criminal charges 1736 01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:07,400 Speaker 1: we've taken on the charge of um addressing these parts 1737 01:43:07,439 --> 01:43:11,559 Speaker 1: bands and how we think they're constitutional. So I'm sure 1738 01:43:11,840 --> 01:43:16,160 Speaker 1: like I can I can speak a little to this, 1739 01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:22,120 Speaker 1: but yeah, I think, um, you know, maybe getting getting 1740 01:43:22,240 --> 01:43:24,760 Speaker 1: one of the criminal defense attorneys to talk if they 1741 01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:29,320 Speaker 1: can about the criminal case might be more helpful for sure. Yeah, 1742 01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:32,720 Speaker 1: maybe can you explain this in general terms what a 1743 01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:35,800 Speaker 1: felony would mean for someone living in North Carolina in 1744 01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:41,559 Speaker 1: terms of just how would affect their life going forward? Yeah, 1745 01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:49,640 Speaker 1: so there's there's a lot I think, you know, um, right, 1746 01:43:49,720 --> 01:43:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a criminal lawyer, but let me just think 1747 01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:57,559 Speaker 1: of a few things. Uh, you know, having a felony 1748 01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:04,280 Speaker 1: on your criminal record just on its own, nobody nobody 1749 01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:08,640 Speaker 1: wants a criminal record in a country and state that 1750 01:44:09,080 --> 01:44:15,439 Speaker 1: is still looking and you know, allowing background checks for 1751 01:44:15,760 --> 01:44:19,839 Speaker 1: certain jobs and having to explain that in any context 1752 01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:21,840 Speaker 1: like I will just you know, you know, let me 1753 01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:26,760 Speaker 1: just talk from my own experience where I've whenever I 1754 01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:29,280 Speaker 1: am getting admitted to a bar. I've moved a couple 1755 01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:32,200 Speaker 1: of times in the past few years and had to 1756 01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:38,160 Speaker 1: deal with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that 1757 01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:43,880 Speaker 1: state's bar. There's several intrusive questions and many of those 1758 01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:48,880 Speaker 1: involved like what kind of what your background is, and 1759 01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:53,320 Speaker 1: that means what your criminal background is, Like we have 1760 01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:58,000 Speaker 1: to do like I have gone through the moral character 1761 01:44:58,200 --> 01:45:03,439 Speaker 1: fitness tests for stage now, and um, it's never fun. 1762 01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:06,960 Speaker 1: It's you know, as someone who is privileged and does 1763 01:45:07,040 --> 01:45:09,479 Speaker 1: not have a criminal history background, it's not fun for 1764 01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:14,240 Speaker 1: me because I like the number of questions they ask you. 1765 01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:18,960 Speaker 1: It's like you really like you know, have to dig 1766 01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:25,040 Speaker 1: back into the past, like your whole life, Like they 1767 01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:27,519 Speaker 1: ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in 1768 01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:30,160 Speaker 1: the past fifteen years and if you get it wrong, 1769 01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:33,840 Speaker 1: you're lying. So you're okay, I'm going out unattention. But 1770 01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:38,200 Speaker 1: the point is, like any any sort of certification or 1771 01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:43,240 Speaker 1: job or UM new opportunity that is that is something 1772 01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:48,240 Speaker 1: a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered 1773 01:45:48,360 --> 01:45:54,080 Speaker 1: and oftentimes in in a negative way and can result 1774 01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:59,799 Speaker 1: in people not getting jobs. UM. It's I think Sarah 1775 01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:04,960 Speaker 1: and like other Saharan tips maybe can explain more about 1776 01:46:05,040 --> 01:46:07,479 Speaker 1: like what the consequences would be like if you've had 1777 01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:11,879 Speaker 1: conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background 1778 01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:16,000 Speaker 1: in immigrants race work, and I know that if any 1779 01:46:16,160 --> 01:46:21,439 Speaker 1: any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing 1780 01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:25,599 Speaker 1: can be used by UM, can be used by ICE, 1781 01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:29,760 Speaker 1: can be used by USBIS to deny you immigration privileges 1782 01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,720 Speaker 1: and and UM and to deport you, to detain you 1783 01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:40,960 Speaker 1: before they deport you and UM. So you know, beyond that, 1784 01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:45,759 Speaker 1: like having to have this hang over your head where 1785 01:46:46,400 --> 01:46:52,080 Speaker 1: the the process is not short, it's not easy, is 1786 01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:58,200 Speaker 1: mentally taxing and UM it's honestly degrading to go through 1787 01:46:58,479 --> 01:47:03,400 Speaker 1: our criminal legals them and it's decorating for everyone UM 1788 01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:09,000 Speaker 1: and and I mean, that's that's all I can say 1789 01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:13,679 Speaker 1: of like someone, um who does like general civil rights work. 1790 01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:17,360 Speaker 1: But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense 1791 01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:21,400 Speaker 1: work and in this all the time, I'm sure they're 1792 01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:25,360 Speaker 1: they're you know, can paint a better picture of how 1793 01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:29,080 Speaker 1: dark that that processes and how dark it can be 1794 01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:33,120 Speaker 1: to have that on um a record. I think another 1795 01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:37,040 Speaker 1: thing with this is, um about Okay, I'm not a lawyer. 1796 01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm also not like your lawyer, legal advice, eta, et cetera. UM, 1797 01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:44,400 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure the way it works in North 1798 01:47:44,439 --> 01:47:46,240 Speaker 1: Carolina is that if you if if you have a 1799 01:47:46,280 --> 01:47:48,760 Speaker 1: felony conviction, you can't vote until you serve out the 1800 01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:55,680 Speaker 1: time Jesus. So yeah, like in country. Yeah, yeah, so 1801 01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:59,240 Speaker 1: that's that's another thing. And um, I'm fairly muted in 1802 01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:02,320 Speaker 1: North Carolina and I moved here in March, so almost 1803 01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:05,680 Speaker 1: a year but not quite so. But I do know 1804 01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:08,960 Speaker 1: that the hoops that you have to jump through just 1805 01:48:09,160 --> 01:48:12,080 Speaker 1: to vote are a lot more than other states that 1806 01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:16,400 Speaker 1: I've lived in. And you know, of course that is 1807 01:48:18,040 --> 01:48:21,080 Speaker 1: that is also another thing done on purpose to silence 1808 01:48:21,160 --> 01:48:26,000 Speaker 1: certain voices. Yeah, that's dark and certainly like you'll lose 1809 01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:28,320 Speaker 1: your Second Amendment right, So be jobs you can't do. 1810 01:48:29,040 --> 01:48:32,240 Speaker 1: There will be things that you have access to, like, yeah, 1811 01:48:32,360 --> 01:48:37,040 Speaker 1: your rights will go away potentially forever, which is bad 1812 01:48:37,080 --> 01:48:38,640 Speaker 1: when you're just trying to help some people who need 1813 01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:42,479 Speaker 1: to help. It's pretty unconstable. Yeah, I think that's the 1814 01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:46,400 Speaker 1: other like really wild thing about all of this is 1815 01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:50,240 Speaker 1: like a lot the folks that are, you know, being 1816 01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:54,240 Speaker 1: banned on, being targeted on this way are providing really 1817 01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:59,559 Speaker 1: important services in a way that the city haven't been 1818 01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:04,640 Speaker 1: able to and hasn't and it's filling in this this 1819 01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:09,840 Speaker 1: really important role of like making sure that folks stay 1820 01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:15,680 Speaker 1: alive and have support and are fed and clothes and um, 1821 01:49:16,800 --> 01:49:22,280 Speaker 1: it's unfortunate to have that taken a way like being 1822 01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:25,560 Speaker 1: banned from a park means being banned from one of 1823 01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:29,240 Speaker 1: the few spaces that our clients had to do this 1824 01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:32,600 Speaker 1: work and where they were able to distribute food and 1825 01:49:33,680 --> 01:49:38,240 Speaker 1: other aid to folks who don't have a home. And 1826 01:49:38,560 --> 01:49:42,720 Speaker 1: it's just it's wild that that kind of action is 1827 01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:47,120 Speaker 1: being taken when when we know that this is a 1828 01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:52,479 Speaker 1: crisis that the city is just not addressing. Yeah, they're 1829 01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:55,040 Speaker 1: like taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather 1830 01:49:55,080 --> 01:50:00,400 Speaker 1: than the crisis itself, which is yeah, very sad. So 1831 01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:02,439 Speaker 1: what stage is you are? I know you have to 1832 01:50:02,520 --> 01:50:05,120 Speaker 1: go in a second here, what stage is your lucky 1833 01:50:05,160 --> 01:50:07,720 Speaker 1: sabco you with challenging the park ban? How has that? 1834 01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:11,160 Speaker 1: How's that gone for you? So so far? We've spent 1835 01:50:11,520 --> 01:50:14,720 Speaker 1: a demand letter to the city. The city have responded 1836 01:50:14,800 --> 01:50:20,120 Speaker 1: to that letter with UM right now kind of wishywashie 1837 01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:25,280 Speaker 1: commitments of like reviewing the policy and UM. While while 1838 01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:27,840 Speaker 1: I think that's a great first step, I do think 1839 01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:31,720 Speaker 1: the city needs to commit to doing more and UM 1840 01:50:32,200 --> 01:50:36,519 Speaker 1: to commit to retracting the bands for all of our 1841 01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:41,200 Speaker 1: clients and potentially others who have been affected by this policy. 1842 01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:46,240 Speaker 1: They also need to change the policy. Like reviewing the policy, 1843 01:50:47,080 --> 01:50:50,880 Speaker 1: that's a great first step, but you know, I want 1844 01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:53,479 Speaker 1: to see, like what are the things that they are 1845 01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:56,840 Speaker 1: building in to make sure that folks are getting proper notice, 1846 01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:01,400 Speaker 1: that this policy isn't being abused and used by UM 1847 01:51:02,200 --> 01:51:06,160 Speaker 1: actual police department others in an unfair way, and that 1848 01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:11,160 Speaker 1: there's like you know, basic standards of like when the 1849 01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:14,879 Speaker 1: policy can be instituted, Like is there a conviction involved 1850 01:51:14,920 --> 01:51:18,519 Speaker 1: and what are the convictions? Like doesn't make sense to 1851 01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:23,560 Speaker 1: then someone from a park for I don't know, like 1852 01:51:26,400 --> 01:51:35,519 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of like something, um felony, literate. Yeah, 1853 01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:41,080 Speaker 1: it's it is bizarre. And I think, like, you know, 1854 01:51:41,960 --> 01:51:48,040 Speaker 1: historically park bends from what I know, is like they've 1855 01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:51,960 Speaker 1: been used against like people who have committed like sexual 1856 01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:58,040 Speaker 1: offenses and um, and so it's kind of it's kind 1857 01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:01,519 Speaker 1: of out of lust field to and and I'll just 1858 01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:04,760 Speaker 1: say this, that's a city like in their response, they 1859 01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:09,200 Speaker 1: cited to one of the cases that are two cases 1860 01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:17,200 Speaker 1: unsolved sexual offenders who are banned from parks, which you know, yeah, 1861 01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:23,640 Speaker 1: some peaceful demonstrators who provided aids to folks who are unhoused. 1862 01:52:23,800 --> 01:52:29,240 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's not really there. The comparison 1863 01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:31,800 Speaker 1: is not there. And I think I hope the city 1864 01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:36,400 Speaker 1: can be honest and um if they are not willing 1865 01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:39,760 Speaker 1: to put the network and to take some of um, 1866 01:52:39,920 --> 01:52:43,080 Speaker 1: do the actions that I've laid out. I do think 1867 01:52:43,320 --> 01:52:47,680 Speaker 1: that we will continue to challenge these park bands and um, 1868 01:52:48,280 --> 01:52:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, will continue to prepare to file suit if 1869 01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:55,560 Speaker 1: that's necessary, great, And how can people follow along with 1870 01:52:55,640 --> 01:52:57,160 Speaker 1: that or if they want to sort of donate or 1871 01:52:57,160 --> 01:52:59,639 Speaker 1: support it, is there a place they can do that. UM. 1872 01:53:00,240 --> 01:53:04,479 Speaker 1: You know, our website UM is a great space to 1873 01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:09,840 Speaker 1: our website. I think our socials like Twitter, UM and Instagram, 1874 01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:12,960 Speaker 1: like our comms team is amazing and they update on 1875 01:53:13,160 --> 01:53:17,800 Speaker 1: our work frequently and often and UM and we try 1876 01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:23,120 Speaker 1: to we try to provide updates there. But also UM 1877 01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:26,960 Speaker 1: kind of engage with our work and what it means 1878 01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:34,479 Speaker 1: broadly for UM books across North Carolina and across the US. Yeah. Great, 1879 01:53:34,479 --> 01:53:36,960 Speaker 1: And that's just a CLU North Carolina. There would be 1880 01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:46,479 Speaker 1: the socials. I shouldn't know that. That's fine of UM. 1881 01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:49,680 Speaker 1: So it's a CLU of North Carolina dot org. And 1882 01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:52,200 Speaker 1: if you go to our website you'll find our socials 1883 01:53:52,320 --> 01:53:56,280 Speaker 1: that it's probably a very cho Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank 1884 01:53:56,320 --> 01:53:58,160 Speaker 1: you so much for giving us some of your time. 1885 01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:01,519 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, that's great, Thank you. 1886 01:54:18,000 --> 01:54:21,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back, Dick had happened here? Once again the folks 1887 01:54:21,080 --> 01:54:23,559 Speaker 1: from It's Going Down are taking over the show as 1888 01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:26,640 Speaker 1: today we do a deep dive into how autonomous organizers 1889 01:54:26,680 --> 01:54:29,559 Speaker 1: are pushing back against a wave of far right attacks 1890 01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:33,720 Speaker 1: on reproductive freedom and autonomy across the United States. A 1891 01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:37,160 Speaker 1: note to our listeners, this episode will include discussion on 1892 01:54:37,360 --> 01:54:41,040 Speaker 1: both sexual and far right violence. I'm your host, Mike Andrews. 1893 01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:44,960 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. In May of twenty twenty two, 1894 01:54:45,320 --> 01:54:48,480 Speaker 1: Politico first reported on the historic league from the Supreme 1895 01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:52,200 Speaker 1: Court about the overturning of Roe versus Wade, the landmark 1896 01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:55,879 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three decision, which ruled under the Fourteenth Amendment, 1897 01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,280 Speaker 1: that a pregnant person has the right to privacy, including 1898 01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:02,520 Speaker 1: the liberty to abort their fetus. In June of twenty 1899 01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:06,120 Speaker 1: twenty two, the Dab's Decisions struck down Row, ruling that 1900 01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:09,320 Speaker 1: the Constitution does not guarantee a person the right to 1901 01:55:09,360 --> 01:55:13,080 Speaker 1: an abortion, triggering a wave of state governments rolling back 1902 01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:16,400 Speaker 1: abortion rights in access for many. However, the fall of 1903 01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:20,000 Speaker 1: Row only further cemented a lack of access to reproductive 1904 01:55:20,040 --> 01:55:23,280 Speaker 1: healthcare has already been the norm for millions. As The 1905 01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:26,880 Speaker 1: Hill wrote, quote as of twenty twenty, six states had 1906 01:55:26,920 --> 01:55:30,160 Speaker 1: only one abortion clinic each, and eighty nine percent of 1907 01:55:30,240 --> 01:55:33,720 Speaker 1: America's counties had no abortion clinic at all, the cumulative 1908 01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:38,000 Speaker 1: effect of decades of restrictions authored by anti abortion lawmakers. 1909 01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:40,800 Speaker 1: This is not to say that things haven't gotten worse. 1910 01:55:41,120 --> 01:55:43,720 Speaker 1: They have in the months following the Dabbs decision. In 1911 01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:46,760 Speaker 1: states like Ohio, where access has been attacked, a rape 1912 01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:49,320 Speaker 1: survivor was forced to travel out of state to find 1913 01:55:49,320 --> 01:55:53,680 Speaker 1: an abortion, while local politicians, including the state's Republican Attorney general, 1914 01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:57,040 Speaker 1: claimed on Fox News that the story was totally fabricated. 1915 01:55:57,240 --> 01:56:00,280 Speaker 1: In other instances, people in Ohio have been denied care 1916 01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:04,839 Speaker 1: even though they face potentially life threatening complications. In Texas, 1917 01:56:05,160 --> 01:56:08,000 Speaker 1: one woman nearly died due to sepsis because she was 1918 01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:12,000 Speaker 1: initially barred access to an abortion by doctors. And these 1919 01:56:12,080 --> 01:56:14,440 Speaker 1: are only some of the stories that have made headlines. 1920 01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:18,120 Speaker 1: The deeper impact on this countrywide attack and reproductive health 1921 01:56:18,320 --> 01:56:21,040 Speaker 1: has hit low income and communities of color the hardest. 1922 01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:24,600 Speaker 1: A recent study from the University of San Francisco found 1923 01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:27,600 Speaker 1: that quote a third of American women of reproductive age 1924 01:56:27,720 --> 01:56:31,400 Speaker 1: now face excessive travel times to obtain an abortion, while 1925 01:56:31,480 --> 01:56:33,960 Speaker 1: twice as many are being forced to travel more than 1926 01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:37,760 Speaker 1: an hour to reach an abortion provider. In short, attacks 1927 01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,160 Speaker 1: on abortion, coupled with the already exploding wealth gap, lack 1928 01:56:41,240 --> 01:56:44,600 Speaker 1: of access to healthcare, the rising cost of living, and 1929 01:56:44,760 --> 01:56:49,440 Speaker 1: the continuing COVID nineteen pandemic, will only expand existing in equalities, 1930 01:56:49,800 --> 01:56:52,680 Speaker 1: especially for people of color, the disabled, and queer and 1931 01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:56,280 Speaker 1: trans folks in particular. On the legal front, some states 1932 01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:59,640 Speaker 1: have pushed to expand abortion access, and many are challenging 1933 01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:04,000 Speaker 1: attacks in the courtroom. Minnesota, for instance, most recently became 1934 01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:07,080 Speaker 1: the first state to enshrine abortion is a right. Meanwhile, 1935 01:57:07,360 --> 01:57:11,200 Speaker 1: many continue to donate to abortion funds, and nonprofits like 1936 01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:14,680 Speaker 1: Planned Parenthood are even launching mobile clinics to provide care 1937 01:57:14,920 --> 01:57:18,040 Speaker 1: and areas hit the hardest due to recent bands. But 1938 01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,120 Speaker 1: as our first two guests, Beck's part of a clinic 1939 01:57:21,240 --> 01:57:24,280 Speaker 1: defense group in New York City. In ashe, an abortion 1940 01:57:24,360 --> 01:57:28,800 Speaker 1: doula in North Carolina, reported, many autonomous organizers aren't putting 1941 01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:31,840 Speaker 1: their faith in the courts, the cops, or the state. 1942 01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:35,160 Speaker 1: You know, living in New York City, abortion is legal, 1943 01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:36,880 Speaker 1: and it is legal before a row, and it's been 1944 01:57:36,960 --> 01:57:40,360 Speaker 1: legal after row. But that doesn't really necessarily mean anything 1945 01:57:40,520 --> 01:57:42,520 Speaker 1: kind of is what we've seen. So one of the 1946 01:57:42,560 --> 01:57:44,520 Speaker 1: things that we've seen is we've seen on anti abortion 1947 01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:48,200 Speaker 1: protesters and activists coming up from red states to target 1948 01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:51,240 Speaker 1: blue states now, and so we've definitely seen their presence 1949 01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:54,320 Speaker 1: increasing outside of the clinic that we defend, and SOHO 1950 01:57:54,440 --> 01:57:56,560 Speaker 1: in Manhattan and so that's I would say is one 1951 01:57:56,560 --> 01:57:58,200 Speaker 1: of the biggest things that we've seen is that they 1952 01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:01,360 Speaker 1: really are targeting Blue states, are targeting New York City. 1953 01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:04,440 Speaker 1: There I'm actively trying to recruit people to come to 1954 01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:06,320 Speaker 1: New York City. Is I think the biggest thing that 1955 01:58:06,360 --> 01:58:08,560 Speaker 1: we've seen, and that also in New York City we've 1956 01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:12,160 Speaker 1: been struggling a lot with a really escalatory police presence 1957 01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:15,120 Speaker 1: at our clinics. So that's the other thing that we're 1958 01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:17,360 Speaker 1: definitely really really struggling with is the response of the 1959 01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:21,080 Speaker 1: state after doubs. So the first thing that I want 1960 01:58:21,120 --> 01:58:25,200 Speaker 1: folks to know is that people abortion has people who 1961 01:58:25,280 --> 01:58:28,160 Speaker 1: might have abortions. Where I am in time and space, 1962 01:58:28,720 --> 01:58:32,000 Speaker 1: they have always already been navigating some of these post 1963 01:58:32,160 --> 01:58:34,720 Speaker 1: roar realities that a lot of folks are just getting 1964 01:58:34,800 --> 01:58:38,000 Speaker 1: hip to, like after that Fateful Friday in June last year. 1965 01:58:38,880 --> 01:58:41,480 Speaker 1: And so I want to name here that we've always 1966 01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:44,400 Speaker 1: had a seventy two hour waiting period in North Carolina, 1967 01:58:44,760 --> 01:58:47,280 Speaker 1: which is one of the longest waiting periods in the country. 1968 01:58:47,960 --> 01:58:50,520 Speaker 1: And there's a slew of other things that we find 1969 01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:55,240 Speaker 1: both hostile and restrictive, and I'm using those words to 1970 01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:59,800 Speaker 1: describe a situation, an ongoing situation, because these are the 1971 01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:04,080 Speaker 1: words that are being used to describe North Carolina now 1972 01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:08,040 Speaker 1: as we're seeing an influx of folks coming to North Carolina. 1973 01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:10,480 Speaker 1: So I'm saying that for the folks who live here 1974 01:59:10,520 --> 01:59:14,680 Speaker 1: always already like they've been dealing with a restrictive, hostile climate. 1975 01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:18,680 Speaker 1: Becks just shared a little bit about like the presence 1976 01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:22,720 Speaker 1: of anti abortion protesters, so we've always been dealing with that. 1977 01:59:23,360 --> 01:59:26,840 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, the abortion clinic that I had two 1978 01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:30,840 Speaker 1: abortions at in my life, they saw the most anti 1979 01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:34,360 Speaker 1: abortion protesters in the Southeast, and we continue to see this. 1980 01:59:35,120 --> 01:59:38,760 Speaker 1: We also continue to see as we see these anti 1981 01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:42,640 Speaker 1: abortion protesters right a police presence, and we know or 1982 01:59:42,720 --> 01:59:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm concerned about what that means for black folks having abortions, 1983 01:59:46,040 --> 01:59:49,280 Speaker 1: for people who are undocumented, and for people who otherwise 1984 01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:51,400 Speaker 1: like don't want the police all up in their business. 1985 01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:55,560 Speaker 1: In addition to what's changed, since jobs are not change, right, 1986 01:59:55,840 --> 01:59:59,000 Speaker 1: but change, we have semen influx of folks coming to 1987 01:59:59,120 --> 02:00:03,240 Speaker 1: North Carolina from states where abortion is illegal or there 1988 02:00:03,400 --> 02:00:08,160 Speaker 1: are bands kind of early ingestation, and we're seeing those 1989 02:00:08,240 --> 02:00:11,440 Speaker 1: folks come to the clinics and access the services and 1990 02:00:11,520 --> 02:00:14,480 Speaker 1: the support networks that we have here in North Carolina. 1991 02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:16,840 Speaker 1: I think that one thing with the group that I 1992 02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:18,960 Speaker 1: work with called ad VIC for Abortion Rights, one thing 1993 02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:21,120 Speaker 1: that we've been working really hard on is not only 1994 02:00:21,200 --> 02:00:23,440 Speaker 1: talking about abortion, not only talking about you know, going 1995 02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:26,320 Speaker 1: beyond just legalizing it, but also really focusing on like 1996 02:00:26,400 --> 02:00:29,920 Speaker 1: our communities and building mutual aid networks, building repro justice networks, 1997 02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:32,560 Speaker 1: and also just working overall on like community defense. So 1998 02:00:32,600 --> 02:00:35,320 Speaker 1: we work with a lot of mutual aid organizations all 1999 02:00:35,360 --> 02:00:37,360 Speaker 1: over the city of New York. And that's one thing 2000 02:00:37,440 --> 02:00:39,520 Speaker 1: that we're doing, like Ash was saying, is we're focusing 2001 02:00:39,560 --> 02:00:41,560 Speaker 1: on you know, how do these people who are outside 2002 02:00:41,560 --> 02:00:44,000 Speaker 1: of our clinics are not only anti abortion, but they're 2003 02:00:44,000 --> 02:00:46,840 Speaker 1: also anti LGBTQ. They are fascist, That is something that 2004 02:00:46,920 --> 02:00:49,400 Speaker 1: we should be saying. They are also pro police. None. 2005 02:00:49,480 --> 02:00:52,640 Speaker 1: None of these things happen inside of a vacuum. They're 2006 02:00:52,640 --> 02:00:54,720 Speaker 1: all interconnected. And I think that that's one thing that 2007 02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:56,880 Speaker 1: we really really have to do is talk about how 2008 02:00:56,920 --> 02:00:59,240 Speaker 1: the issue of abortion bridge is out to so many 2009 02:00:59,280 --> 02:01:02,040 Speaker 1: other things, and we can't only fight one issue. We 2010 02:01:02,160 --> 02:01:03,480 Speaker 1: have to fight all of them. But we also have 2011 02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:05,720 Speaker 1: to fight the root of where these things are coming from, 2012 02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:08,440 Speaker 1: and they're coming from this mass conservative movement that's been 2013 02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:10,840 Speaker 1: being built since the nineteen seventies, you know, groups like 2014 02:01:10,960 --> 02:01:14,200 Speaker 1: Focus on the Family, like the Federalist Society. These groups 2015 02:01:14,280 --> 02:01:17,160 Speaker 1: have so much influence in our society, and we need 2016 02:01:17,240 --> 02:01:19,400 Speaker 1: to be going after all of it. We can't only 2017 02:01:19,480 --> 02:01:22,800 Speaker 1: be going after you know, one tiny, you know, sector 2018 02:01:22,920 --> 02:01:25,360 Speaker 1: of the massive problem, because like Ash said, it is 2019 02:01:25,440 --> 02:01:30,280 Speaker 1: all interconnected. Here, I'm thinking about like some political education 2020 02:01:30,360 --> 02:01:34,200 Speaker 1: that needs to happen, like and that is the framework 2021 02:01:34,400 --> 02:01:38,280 Speaker 1: and the theories of reproductive Justice. I know that they 2022 02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,960 Speaker 1: recognize so many it recognizes so many things. But one 2023 02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:44,800 Speaker 1: of the things that grounds me that it recognizes that 2024 02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:48,400 Speaker 1: r J recognizes is that dismantling white supremacy is key 2025 02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:53,840 Speaker 1: to achieving reproductive justice. It also says, it posits that 2026 02:01:54,000 --> 02:01:57,960 Speaker 1: we live interconnected lives and not single issue lives. And 2027 02:01:58,040 --> 02:02:01,720 Speaker 1: it also for me yields that, like, we can't rely 2028 02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:05,040 Speaker 1: on the state to provide what we need. I'm seeing 2029 02:02:05,440 --> 02:02:09,720 Speaker 1: abortion doulas, clinic escorts, abortion funds, and other organizers and 2030 02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:13,960 Speaker 1: organizations really come together to support people having abortions and 2031 02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:17,920 Speaker 1: resist criminalization and state violence right now, and we need 2032 02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:20,440 Speaker 1: to see more of that. You know, you talk about 2033 02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:23,440 Speaker 1: pro choice, I think it's so whack, like the logics 2034 02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:26,080 Speaker 1: of pro choice. We need to go further beyond the 2035 02:02:26,160 --> 02:02:29,440 Speaker 1: logics of pro choice and understand that RJ says that 2036 02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:34,280 Speaker 1: there is no choice without access. And furthermore, RJ posits 2037 02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:39,200 Speaker 1: that the key to controlling entire communities is to controlling bodies. 2038 02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:41,640 Speaker 1: So if they're coming for the trans people on their 2039 02:02:41,840 --> 02:02:45,000 Speaker 1: HRT and their access to gender affirming and medical care, 2040 02:02:45,240 --> 02:02:47,840 Speaker 1: then they're gonna come for everyone else. Then they're gonna 2041 02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:50,760 Speaker 1: come for the abortion hovers. They've been coming for the 2042 02:02:50,840 --> 02:02:54,560 Speaker 1: poor people. I think that, like again, when we go 2043 02:02:54,680 --> 02:02:58,640 Speaker 1: back to that reproductive justice framework, we can begin to 2044 02:02:59,160 --> 02:03:01,880 Speaker 1: like make these connections. And I'm also saying this as 2045 02:03:01,920 --> 02:03:05,440 Speaker 1: an organizer, like reproductive justice is my lane, but so 2046 02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:09,360 Speaker 1: as like environmental justice and SOS racial justice, and I'm 2047 02:03:09,440 --> 02:03:12,120 Speaker 1: on the front lines of different movements, and I go 2048 02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:17,160 Speaker 1: back to this framework because it acknowledges that, like black 2049 02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:20,040 Speaker 1: people need an end to anti black racism, and we 2050 02:03:20,120 --> 02:03:22,440 Speaker 1: need an end to the police and clean fucking water. 2051 02:03:22,640 --> 02:03:25,480 Speaker 1: Right now, I don't know of a framework that says that, 2052 02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:28,200 Speaker 1: like we ought to demand all of those things right 2053 02:03:28,280 --> 02:03:31,400 Speaker 1: fucking now, and that we actually can't live self determined 2054 02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:34,440 Speaker 1: lives without all of that shit. And so I'm ready 2055 02:03:34,480 --> 02:03:37,200 Speaker 1: to talk about r J like I'm ready to do 2056 02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:40,960 Speaker 1: that political education. I think it's ongoing work and right like, 2057 02:03:41,800 --> 02:03:43,800 Speaker 1: you don't have to be an abortion dou lah or 2058 02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:46,680 Speaker 1: a frontline organizer to help someone get to their appointment, 2059 02:03:47,040 --> 02:03:50,960 Speaker 1: to fund an abortion, to affirm someone's decision and support 2060 02:03:51,000 --> 02:03:53,560 Speaker 1: their decision to have an abortion, and so we really 2061 02:03:53,680 --> 02:03:56,960 Speaker 1: need that, like, we need that vibe right now. We 2062 02:03:57,040 --> 02:03:59,080 Speaker 1: need people to show up that way. I think that 2063 02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:01,520 Speaker 1: my biggest frustrate with Democrats is they've been telling us 2064 02:04:01,560 --> 02:04:03,520 Speaker 1: for years, like, oh, you know, vote for us, vote 2065 02:04:03,520 --> 02:04:05,160 Speaker 1: for us. They've been fundraising off of the issue of 2066 02:04:05,160 --> 02:04:08,200 Speaker 1: abortion for decades now. They have done absolutely nothing, And 2067 02:04:08,280 --> 02:04:10,160 Speaker 1: I think that what they've really done is they've really 2068 02:04:10,640 --> 02:04:13,680 Speaker 1: made us, made us, as in the general like American 2069 02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:16,800 Speaker 1: populace feel as though voting is the only way that 2070 02:04:16,880 --> 02:04:18,600 Speaker 1: we can change things, and that voting is the only 2071 02:04:18,680 --> 02:04:21,240 Speaker 1: way that we can like show our impact and like 2072 02:04:21,360 --> 02:04:24,200 Speaker 1: help our communities, when in reality, it isn't. It's going 2073 02:04:24,240 --> 02:04:26,400 Speaker 1: out onto the streets. It's also you know, doing abortion 2074 02:04:26,440 --> 02:04:29,560 Speaker 1: do the work. It's also you know, going out defunding clinics. 2075 02:04:29,760 --> 02:04:31,560 Speaker 1: It's doing all of this work. And we don't need 2076 02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:33,480 Speaker 1: the Democrats to do that. And what we need to 2077 02:04:33,560 --> 02:04:35,280 Speaker 1: be doing is we need to be talking about the 2078 02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:37,560 Speaker 1: state and how we can go beyond the state. I 2079 02:04:37,680 --> 02:04:40,520 Speaker 1: also want to say here, like fuck Row. Like Row 2080 02:04:41,600 --> 02:04:46,240 Speaker 1: is the kind of legal infrastructure that made abortion possible. 2081 02:04:46,360 --> 02:04:50,040 Speaker 1: But it also made it possible for like both the Democrats, 2082 02:04:50,080 --> 02:04:53,640 Speaker 1: the Republicans, the Christian Evangelicals, anyone who was checking for it, 2083 02:04:53,920 --> 02:04:56,920 Speaker 1: to take abortion away. So like fuck Row. It also 2084 02:04:57,040 --> 02:05:00,240 Speaker 1: gave us the trimester framework, which is like really black, 2085 02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:03,040 Speaker 1: and it also kind of made it more possible for 2086 02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:05,839 Speaker 1: the states and the federal government to put in bands 2087 02:05:05,960 --> 02:05:09,080 Speaker 1: and restrictions on abortion. That's something that we need to 2088 02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:12,440 Speaker 1: get clear about as well as we fight to decriminalize 2089 02:05:12,520 --> 02:05:16,520 Speaker 1: and not legislate further abortion. Stay with us, it could 2090 02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:19,520 Speaker 1: happen here. We'll return after these words from our sponsors. 2091 02:05:22,080 --> 02:05:26,120 Speaker 1: On July twenty seventh, nineteen ninety six, Eric Rudoff set 2092 02:05:26,120 --> 02:05:29,200 Speaker 1: off a nail bomb during the Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia. 2093 02:05:29,640 --> 02:05:33,320 Speaker 1: The explosion killed one person immediately, while over one hundred 2094 02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:37,440 Speaker 1: more were horrifically injured in the communicate. Claiming responsibility for 2095 02:05:37,520 --> 02:05:43,000 Speaker 1: the bombing, Rudolf denounced the Olympics, abortion, and LGBTQ rights 2096 02:05:43,240 --> 02:05:46,120 Speaker 1: with talking points that seemed ripped right out of Tucker 2097 02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:51,080 Speaker 1: Carlson's nightly news headlines. He wrote, the world converged upon 2098 02:05:51,120 --> 02:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Atlanta to celebrate the ideals of global socialism. The purpose 2099 02:05:55,080 --> 02:05:59,760 Speaker 1: of my attack the Washington government sanctioning of abortion on demand. 2100 02:06:00,160 --> 02:06:03,720 Speaker 1: Along with abortion, another assault upon the integrity of American 2101 02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:08,680 Speaker 1: society is the considered effort to legitimize the practice of homosexuality, 2102 02:06:09,200 --> 02:06:14,320 Speaker 1: whether it's gay marriage, homosexual adoption, hate crime laws including gays, 2103 02:06:14,640 --> 02:06:19,000 Speaker 1: or the attempt to introduce a homosexual normalizing curriculum into 2104 02:06:19,080 --> 02:06:22,960 Speaker 1: our schools. All of these efforts should be ruthlessly opposed. 2105 02:06:23,280 --> 02:06:27,160 Speaker 1: The existence of our culture depends on it. Rudolph would 2106 02:06:27,160 --> 02:06:30,000 Speaker 1: go on to carry out more deadly attacks against abortion 2107 02:06:30,080 --> 02:06:33,960 Speaker 1: clinics in a queer nightclub, releasing communications under the banner 2108 02:06:34,080 --> 02:06:37,919 Speaker 1: of the Army of God, a group which endorsed leaderless 2109 02:06:38,040 --> 02:06:41,920 Speaker 1: resistance and was linked to the white supremaci Christian identity movement, 2110 02:06:42,040 --> 02:06:45,720 Speaker 1: and the murder of multiple abortion providers. The Army of 2111 02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:49,040 Speaker 1: God was just one formation that grew out of Christian identity, 2112 02:06:49,360 --> 02:06:52,400 Speaker 1: a mix of white supremacy in Christianity, the preach that 2113 02:06:52,560 --> 02:06:56,000 Speaker 1: Jews were Satanic and people of color were subhuman and 2114 02:06:56,120 --> 02:06:59,880 Speaker 1: need to be destroyed in a racial holy war. Christian 2115 02:07:00,000 --> 02:07:04,680 Speaker 1: and inde adherents set up paramilitary compounds, Bible camps, radio stations, 2116 02:07:04,720 --> 02:07:08,320 Speaker 1: and churches from the Aryan Nations to the Covenant of 2117 02:07:08,360 --> 02:07:10,400 Speaker 1: the Sword in the Arm of the Lord, and they 2118 02:07:10,480 --> 02:07:13,640 Speaker 1: helped usher in a wave of homegrown terrorist groups such 2119 02:07:13,680 --> 02:07:17,480 Speaker 1: as The Order and individuals like Timothy Vey carried out 2120 02:07:17,520 --> 02:07:21,720 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing. Meanwhile, above ground groups like Operation 2121 02:07:21,840 --> 02:07:26,080 Speaker 1: Rescue cheered on the violence against abortion providers while organizing 2122 02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:29,440 Speaker 1: mass protests at clinics with the aim of shutting them down. 2123 02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:33,040 Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, when a gunman killed three people in 2124 02:07:33,080 --> 02:07:35,760 Speaker 1: a mass shooting at a clinic in Colorado Springs, the 2125 02:07:35,920 --> 02:07:39,200 Speaker 1: far right anti abortion movement had carried out eight murders, 2126 02:07:39,520 --> 02:07:43,280 Speaker 1: seventeen attempted murders, forty two bombings in one hundred and 2127 02:07:43,320 --> 02:07:47,320 Speaker 1: eighty six arsons, all targeted against abortion clinics and providers. 2128 02:07:47,720 --> 02:07:50,080 Speaker 1: Wanted to know more about the history of far attacks 2129 02:07:50,160 --> 02:07:53,120 Speaker 1: on abortion access if they were indeed rising in the 2130 02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:56,320 Speaker 1: current post stops period, We sat down with Bullets of 2131 02:07:56,400 --> 02:08:01,320 Speaker 1: Fowler of the National Abortion Federation. Unfortunately, since abortion was 2132 02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:05,680 Speaker 1: legalized with the ROVERSUS Weight decision, there has been a 2133 02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:11,560 Speaker 1: really coordinated campaign of harassment and violence to target abortion 2134 02:08:11,600 --> 02:08:15,320 Speaker 1: providers and try to stop access to legal abortion. And 2135 02:08:16,320 --> 02:08:20,000 Speaker 1: we've been tracking this since the late seventies. There have 2136 02:08:20,360 --> 02:08:24,919 Speaker 1: been a number of escalating events, everything from clinic protests 2137 02:08:24,920 --> 02:08:27,520 Speaker 1: and clinic blockades all the way up to arsons and 2138 02:08:27,760 --> 02:08:31,040 Speaker 1: murders of providers just because they do this work. So 2139 02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:35,200 Speaker 1: when we talk about this, it's very real. It's a 2140 02:08:35,560 --> 02:08:39,879 Speaker 1: very real threat, and it is really terrorism that's happening 2141 02:08:40,480 --> 02:08:44,480 Speaker 1: by a coordinated group of people and individuals who really 2142 02:08:44,680 --> 02:08:48,240 Speaker 1: are aimed at stopping any access to legal abortion care. 2143 02:08:48,760 --> 02:08:51,640 Speaker 1: So we definitely and have seen for a long time 2144 02:08:52,160 --> 02:08:55,560 Speaker 1: that there is an overlap between the people that target 2145 02:08:55,600 --> 02:08:58,680 Speaker 1: abortion providers and the people that are involved in other 2146 02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:04,560 Speaker 1: types of violent streamist movements, including white nationalists. We've known 2147 02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:07,880 Speaker 1: that for a long time. It's existed many years. In fact, 2148 02:09:08,080 --> 02:09:12,560 Speaker 1: in the eighties, the KKK began creating one imposters listing 2149 02:09:12,640 --> 02:09:16,640 Speaker 1: the personal information of abortion providers, and the first provider 2150 02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:18,880 Speaker 1: who was murdered, doctor David Gunn, who was murdered in 2151 02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:22,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, was murdered by someone who was a 2152 02:09:22,360 --> 02:09:25,920 Speaker 1: white supremacist who had been mentored by someone who was 2153 02:09:25,960 --> 02:09:30,960 Speaker 1: a former KKK member. And so we've seen the overlap 2154 02:09:31,080 --> 02:09:34,760 Speaker 1: of these groups, and in the last couple of years, 2155 02:09:34,920 --> 02:09:38,960 Speaker 1: we've seen that overlap be more coordinated and more public. 2156 02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:42,920 Speaker 1: So on January sixth, at the insurrection, a lot of 2157 02:09:42,960 --> 02:09:46,800 Speaker 1: our members were watching on TV and recognized people because 2158 02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:49,360 Speaker 1: they were the same people that protest at their clinics. 2159 02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:52,720 Speaker 1: In fact, providers that even noted that day of pulling 2160 02:09:52,760 --> 02:09:55,200 Speaker 1: in the parking lot and not seeing their usual protesters 2161 02:09:55,240 --> 02:09:57,480 Speaker 1: and wondering what was going on because they saw less 2162 02:09:57,520 --> 02:09:59,960 Speaker 1: people outside of clinics, And we later found out it's 2163 02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:03,840 Speaker 1: because many of them were at the capitol. And you know, 2164 02:10:03,960 --> 02:10:06,400 Speaker 1: a number of people who are active in the anti 2165 02:10:06,440 --> 02:10:10,839 Speaker 1: abortion movement have boasted about being at the insurrection, posted 2166 02:10:10,960 --> 02:10:14,080 Speaker 1: video and pictures of themselves at the insurrection, and so 2167 02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:16,760 Speaker 1: it's it's very clear to us and we very much 2168 02:10:16,880 --> 02:10:21,160 Speaker 1: see that overlap. We also see more more of these 2169 02:10:21,320 --> 02:10:24,600 Speaker 1: right wing groups actually showing up and participating at anti 2170 02:10:24,680 --> 02:10:28,080 Speaker 1: abortion events, so attending some of the marches around the 2171 02:10:28,160 --> 02:10:30,640 Speaker 1: country in a more visible way than we've seen in 2172 02:10:30,720 --> 02:10:34,640 Speaker 1: the past. Sometimes these right wing groups will do quote 2173 02:10:34,720 --> 02:10:37,840 Speaker 1: unquote security for the anti abortion movement, So when they 2174 02:10:37,920 --> 02:10:41,720 Speaker 1: have people who are speaking or they're holding large events 2175 02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:47,960 Speaker 1: to target providers, they'll get security assistance from white nationalist groups. 2176 02:10:48,360 --> 02:10:51,720 Speaker 1: And so, you know, it's particularly disturbing to see. It 2177 02:10:52,000 --> 02:10:56,320 Speaker 1: doesn't surprise us because we've been We've known that there's 2178 02:10:56,360 --> 02:10:58,560 Speaker 1: an overlap in these groups for a really long time. 2179 02:10:59,520 --> 02:11:02,600 Speaker 1: But as we've seen in recent years, as people seem 2180 02:11:02,680 --> 02:11:06,280 Speaker 1: to be more okay being more visible about their membership 2181 02:11:06,320 --> 02:11:10,680 Speaker 1: in these groups or more vocal about their hate, we're 2182 02:11:10,720 --> 02:11:13,560 Speaker 1: seeing it more publicly. The anti abortion movement is not 2183 02:11:13,640 --> 02:11:17,120 Speaker 1: doing anything to distance themselves from these groups. So since 2184 02:11:17,280 --> 02:11:21,640 Speaker 1: the leak happened last May, we immediately saw an increase 2185 02:11:22,000 --> 02:11:27,200 Speaker 1: in harassment and online posts that were threatening toward abortion providers. 2186 02:11:27,560 --> 02:11:30,520 Speaker 1: Even though we got a preview of the decision and 2187 02:11:30,800 --> 02:11:33,560 Speaker 1: we knew what was coming and that it would lead 2188 02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:36,840 Speaker 1: to clinics closing, that wasn't enough for some people. We 2189 02:11:36,920 --> 02:11:39,760 Speaker 1: saw calls for people to go and burn clinics or 2190 02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:41,560 Speaker 1: go and take matters into their own hands and not 2191 02:11:41,720 --> 02:11:43,800 Speaker 1: wait for the decision to go and try and stop 2192 02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:48,240 Speaker 1: abortions from being provided that moment, and so we track 2193 02:11:49,280 --> 02:11:52,160 Speaker 1: those types of online posts. We saw a real spike 2194 02:11:52,440 --> 02:11:55,800 Speaker 1: in May and June around the decision, and we also 2195 02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:59,680 Speaker 1: started immediately hearing from our member clinics that they were 2196 02:11:59,720 --> 02:12:02,920 Speaker 1: seeing increase in protesters and increase in threats, and it 2197 02:12:03,000 --> 02:12:06,440 Speaker 1: increase in the intensity and hostility of those activities, so 2198 02:12:07,080 --> 02:12:11,840 Speaker 1: more really aggressive protesters that were touching patients and staff, 2199 02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:15,880 Speaker 1: yelling at patients and staff, photographing patients and staff, and 2200 02:12:16,320 --> 02:12:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, since the decision, we have seen a number 2201 02:12:18,880 --> 02:12:22,280 Speaker 1: of clinics close in places that are considered more hostile 2202 02:12:22,320 --> 02:12:26,200 Speaker 1: to abortion rights. But we know from our past experience 2203 02:12:26,320 --> 02:12:29,920 Speaker 1: that when a clinic closes, the protesters don't just give 2204 02:12:30,000 --> 02:12:33,680 Speaker 1: up and go home. In many cases, anti abortion individuals 2205 02:12:33,760 --> 02:12:36,840 Speaker 1: will travel the same paths the patients are traveling, and 2206 02:12:36,960 --> 02:12:39,680 Speaker 1: they will go to other states where abortion remains successible 2207 02:12:39,720 --> 02:12:42,000 Speaker 1: and target the clinics there. So we are seeing an 2208 02:12:42,080 --> 02:12:45,800 Speaker 1: increase in activity in the places where abortion is remaining 2209 02:12:45,960 --> 02:12:48,600 Speaker 1: legal and where patients are going to get care. And 2210 02:12:48,720 --> 02:12:51,240 Speaker 1: we're still you know, we're just now collecting the numbers 2211 02:12:51,280 --> 02:12:53,520 Speaker 1: for twenty twenty two, so we don't we don't have 2212 02:12:53,680 --> 02:12:57,280 Speaker 1: those for a little bit, but we do know anecdotally 2213 02:12:57,360 --> 02:12:59,240 Speaker 1: and what we're hearing from members and what we're seeing 2214 02:12:59,280 --> 02:13:01,000 Speaker 1: on the ground is that there is an increase in 2215 02:13:01,080 --> 02:13:04,200 Speaker 1: that activity. There have been a few arsons this year 2216 02:13:04,560 --> 02:13:08,560 Speaker 1: who are also seeing clinic invasions continue, and these are 2217 02:13:09,320 --> 02:13:13,680 Speaker 1: instances where people might pose as patients. In some cases, 2218 02:13:13,720 --> 02:13:16,040 Speaker 1: they go to a lot of work to try and 2219 02:13:16,520 --> 02:13:19,720 Speaker 1: infiltrate the clinic and find out about their practices for 2220 02:13:19,840 --> 02:13:24,560 Speaker 1: making appointments, and then they will pose as patients, make 2221 02:13:24,720 --> 02:13:29,040 Speaker 1: fake appointments and try to get into the clinic forcibly 2222 02:13:29,160 --> 02:13:32,680 Speaker 1: if they if they have to, and then once they're inside, 2223 02:13:32,720 --> 02:13:36,520 Speaker 1: they're harassing patients, they refuse to leave. In some cases 2224 02:13:36,560 --> 02:13:41,640 Speaker 1: they hand out flowers or seeing or yell. In California, 2225 02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:46,000 Speaker 1: they walked through the halls screaming the name of the doctor, 2226 02:13:46,440 --> 02:13:48,440 Speaker 1: ordering the doctor to come out and face them, and 2227 02:13:48,480 --> 02:13:51,520 Speaker 1: it was very traumatic for staff. They didn't know if 2228 02:13:51,560 --> 02:13:53,520 Speaker 1: this person was armed or what they were doing. And 2229 02:13:53,960 --> 02:13:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, they had patients in procedure rooms with them 2230 02:13:56,960 --> 02:13:59,560 Speaker 1: or in counseling rooms, and they were locking the door 2231 02:13:59,600 --> 02:14:02,840 Speaker 1: and shelf ring in place and was very frightening, and 2232 02:14:03,000 --> 02:14:05,920 Speaker 1: we continue to see these types of invasions happen across 2233 02:14:05,960 --> 02:14:10,760 Speaker 1: the country. Ironically, however, laws passed in the nineteen nineties 2234 02:14:10,840 --> 02:14:14,240 Speaker 1: designed to protect people seeking abortions and reproductive healthcare have 2235 02:14:14,440 --> 02:14:17,320 Speaker 1: now been weaponized against those who have been taking action 2236 02:14:17,360 --> 02:14:20,120 Speaker 1: in the wake of the Daub's decision, most notably under 2237 02:14:20,160 --> 02:14:23,800 Speaker 1: the banner of Jane's Revenge, a moniker used by anonymous 2238 02:14:23,880 --> 02:14:26,960 Speaker 1: activists taking action, usually in the former broken windows and 2239 02:14:27,040 --> 02:14:31,760 Speaker 1: graffiti against anti choice, crisis pregnancy centers and beyond. As 2240 02:14:31,880 --> 02:14:35,440 Speaker 1: Natasha Leonard wrote in the Intercept, Congress passed the Face 2241 02:14:35,520 --> 02:14:38,960 Speaker 1: Act in nineteen eighty four, allowing the assassinations and mass 2242 02:14:39,040 --> 02:14:43,280 Speaker 1: clinic blockades, making the physical obstruction of clinics a federal offense, 2243 02:14:43,480 --> 02:14:46,000 Speaker 1: as well as threats of force and violence against clinic 2244 02:14:46,080 --> 02:14:48,600 Speaker 1: workers and clinic property. In its thirty years on the 2245 02:14:48,680 --> 02:14:51,800 Speaker 1: books has been used sparingly. Now this law has been 2246 02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:55,640 Speaker 1: used to prosecute to reproductive rights activists who allegedly spray 2247 02:14:55,680 --> 02:14:59,440 Speaker 1: painted the outside walls of misleading and dangerous crisis pregnancy 2248 02:14:59,520 --> 02:15:03,040 Speaker 1: centers known as CPCs and now face up to twelve 2249 02:15:03,160 --> 02:15:05,840 Speaker 1: years in prison for the graffiti. This use of the 2250 02:15:05,960 --> 02:15:08,920 Speaker 1: Face Act against those fighting to protect reproductive freedom and 2251 02:15:08,960 --> 02:15:12,560 Speaker 1: autonomy by weaponizing laws supposedly aimed at those threatening it 2252 02:15:13,080 --> 02:15:17,120 Speaker 1: mirrors the numerous domestic terrorism charges lodged against forest defenders 2253 02:15:17,160 --> 02:15:20,560 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, made possible by a bill in twenty seventeen 2254 02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:23,720 Speaker 1: following the massacre of nine black parishioners by the white 2255 02:15:23,800 --> 02:15:27,800 Speaker 1: supremist Dylan Roof. Stay with us, it could happen here, 2256 02:15:27,840 --> 02:15:32,480 Speaker 1: will return after these words from our sponsors. As the 2257 02:15:32,560 --> 02:15:35,120 Speaker 1: culture war is deepened on the right and even mainstream 2258 02:15:35,160 --> 02:15:39,160 Speaker 1: GEOP leaders have embraced white nationalists talking points, many openly 2259 02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:41,760 Speaker 1: neo nazi and white supremist groups have come to see 2260 02:15:41,840 --> 02:15:44,840 Speaker 1: the anti choice movement as a lucrative recruiting ground and 2261 02:15:44,920 --> 02:15:47,560 Speaker 1: a point of engagement with the wider right wing base. 2262 02:15:48,160 --> 02:15:50,880 Speaker 1: Again we hear from clinic defender Becks in New York, 2263 02:15:51,280 --> 02:15:54,920 Speaker 1: an abortion doula ash in North Carolina. In our case 2264 02:15:55,000 --> 02:15:57,120 Speaker 1: in New York City, the group that we defend, the 2265 02:15:57,160 --> 02:16:00,600 Speaker 1: Clinic Front, is its Catholic group that gets an armed 2266 02:16:00,720 --> 02:16:03,680 Speaker 1: escort from the NYPD. So that's one thing that really 2267 02:16:03,720 --> 02:16:05,440 Speaker 1: really scares me. You know, when we talk about a 2268 02:16:05,520 --> 02:16:08,280 Speaker 1: far right is that the NYPD has been aiding these 2269 02:16:08,360 --> 02:16:10,680 Speaker 1: far right groups and getting them escorts for a very 2270 02:16:10,760 --> 02:16:12,960 Speaker 1: very long time. And so I think that kind of 2271 02:16:13,040 --> 02:16:15,040 Speaker 1: like goes to a lot of the fears that a 2272 02:16:15,080 --> 02:16:16,480 Speaker 1: lot of us have when it comes to this kind 2273 02:16:16,520 --> 02:16:19,760 Speaker 1: of collaboration and the changing face of anti abortion protesters. 2274 02:16:20,240 --> 02:16:22,800 Speaker 1: We already know down here that cops and clay go 2275 02:16:23,000 --> 02:16:27,320 Speaker 1: hand in hand, and unfortunately, like newly white radicalized I 2276 02:16:27,360 --> 02:16:28,640 Speaker 1: don't know if you can call them that, but like 2277 02:16:28,800 --> 02:16:33,160 Speaker 1: politicized white women who want to defend clinics, they saw 2278 02:16:33,480 --> 02:16:36,600 Speaker 1: they they realize these realities, like the cops are not 2279 02:16:36,720 --> 02:16:40,000 Speaker 1: here to defend you or people who want to have abortions, 2280 02:16:41,120 --> 02:16:45,199 Speaker 1: and we actually don't need the cops to have abortions 2281 02:16:45,400 --> 02:16:49,000 Speaker 1: and to make reproductive justice a real possibility in all 2282 02:16:49,080 --> 02:16:52,280 Speaker 1: of our lives. I'm thinking here also about like the 2283 02:16:52,440 --> 02:16:58,160 Speaker 1: need to decriminalize abortion and not legalize abortion again. As 2284 02:16:58,160 --> 02:17:00,800 Speaker 1: an abolitionist, as an abortion do and as someone who's 2285 02:17:00,840 --> 02:17:04,920 Speaker 1: had abortions, I'm making these connections and as a trans 2286 02:17:05,000 --> 02:17:08,160 Speaker 1: person right, I'm making these connections that like the folks 2287 02:17:08,200 --> 02:17:11,880 Speaker 1: who are standing outside of abortion clinics, the anti choice 2288 02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:14,880 Speaker 1: the anti abortion folks. These are the same people who 2289 02:17:14,920 --> 02:17:18,039 Speaker 1: are pro police people. These are the same people who 2290 02:17:18,080 --> 02:17:20,560 Speaker 1: are racist in our communities, who are classist, who are 2291 02:17:20,560 --> 02:17:25,560 Speaker 1: anti black, who are fascists, and furthermore, right like these 2292 02:17:25,680 --> 02:17:28,280 Speaker 1: people who stand outside of abortion clinics, they are the 2293 02:17:28,400 --> 02:17:33,240 Speaker 1: same people perpetuating these rhetorics that like gay people are groomers, 2294 02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:36,760 Speaker 1: but also that like critical race theory, for examples, shouldn't 2295 02:17:36,760 --> 02:17:39,920 Speaker 1: be taught in school. I am making these connections and 2296 02:17:40,000 --> 02:17:43,200 Speaker 1: I'm also going back to that reproductive justice framework that 2297 02:17:43,360 --> 02:17:45,960 Speaker 1: reminds me that, like, what do we have to do 2298 02:17:46,160 --> 02:17:48,600 Speaker 1: now is that we have to fight together, and one 2299 02:17:48,640 --> 02:17:51,440 Speaker 1: of the ways we can do that is by making 2300 02:17:51,520 --> 02:17:57,560 Speaker 1: these connections. Right, like these people are Christian evangelicals, they 2301 02:17:57,640 --> 02:18:01,280 Speaker 1: are fascists. Explicitly, we need to say that, and it 2302 02:18:01,520 --> 02:18:06,040 Speaker 1: behooves all of us to really fight together along those lines. 2303 02:18:07,320 --> 02:18:09,880 Speaker 1: In the year since the attempted pro Trump coup on 2304 02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:14,720 Speaker 1: January six, neo Nazis, white supremacists, and Proud Boys have 2305 02:18:14,920 --> 02:18:17,920 Speaker 1: ramped up their presence at anti choice events. The neo 2306 02:18:18,000 --> 02:18:21,000 Speaker 1: Nazi group Patriot Front has shut up to march alongside 2307 02:18:21,120 --> 02:18:24,439 Speaker 1: various anti abortion groups, often to be bent with handshakes 2308 02:18:24,480 --> 02:18:27,960 Speaker 1: from anti abortion activists and police escorts to protect them 2309 02:18:28,040 --> 02:18:31,840 Speaker 1: from anti fascists. Several weeks ago, openly fascist groups took 2310 02:18:31,920 --> 02:18:35,599 Speaker 1: part in the yearly Walk for Life rally in San Francisco, California. 2311 02:18:35,959 --> 02:18:38,400 Speaker 1: US Thousands took to the city streets after being bust 2312 02:18:38,480 --> 02:18:41,440 Speaker 1: in from across the state. Marching alongside them were proud 2313 02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:44,440 Speaker 1: boys decked out in your uniforms and mass neo Nazis 2314 02:18:44,520 --> 02:18:47,920 Speaker 1: holding openly racist banners. Wanting to know more about this 2315 02:18:48,080 --> 02:18:52,080 Speaker 1: continued crossover, we spoke with anti fascist journalists Paschal Singh, 2316 02:18:52,200 --> 02:18:55,520 Speaker 1: based in southern California. In the wake of the reversal 2317 02:18:55,560 --> 02:18:59,440 Speaker 1: of Rovy Way, there was big spike in demonstrations from 2318 02:18:59,480 --> 02:19:02,160 Speaker 1: the right wing where they were targeting clinics, they were 2319 02:19:02,200 --> 02:19:04,680 Speaker 1: targeting any kind of school boards with any kind of 2320 02:19:04,760 --> 02:19:08,800 Speaker 1: reproductive health anything. They were doing it for several months 2321 02:19:08,959 --> 02:19:13,560 Speaker 1: in places like California where abortion is still provided and 2322 02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:17,880 Speaker 1: still accessible. That makes a lot of the anti abortion 2323 02:19:18,040 --> 02:19:21,480 Speaker 1: movement still feel like they're the victim of something, even 2324 02:19:21,520 --> 02:19:24,560 Speaker 1: though they just had this massive political victory, and at 2325 02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:28,960 Speaker 1: least in southern California, I've noticed that they've continued to 2326 02:19:29,240 --> 02:19:32,120 Speaker 1: rally they've had some pretty large rallies, especially for the 2327 02:19:32,879 --> 02:19:35,480 Speaker 1: pro life thing that happened recently. We're cities around the country, 2328 02:19:35,480 --> 02:19:40,680 Speaker 1: including San Francisco, had some pretty alarmingly sized anti abortion rallies, 2329 02:19:40,720 --> 02:19:42,920 Speaker 1: and some of them, like in San Francisco, you had 2330 02:19:43,040 --> 02:19:46,880 Speaker 1: some of the more extremest elements, white supremacist elements showing 2331 02:19:47,160 --> 02:19:52,959 Speaker 1: up quite explicitly, quite proudly, and here in Southern California, 2332 02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:55,960 Speaker 1: I've seen that starting to pick up again. It's almost 2333 02:19:56,120 --> 02:19:59,560 Speaker 1: building off of the momentum from all these rallies, targeting 2334 02:19:59,640 --> 02:20:03,800 Speaker 1: drags shows, which have been excellent networking opportunities for different 2335 02:20:03,879 --> 02:20:07,400 Speaker 1: right wing groups to work with more far right extremists 2336 02:20:07,520 --> 02:20:10,480 Speaker 1: and even about all out white supremacists. Once they get 2337 02:20:10,520 --> 02:20:12,960 Speaker 1: into a groove together, even if these groups don't always 2338 02:20:13,000 --> 02:20:15,480 Speaker 1: get along, they have a revolving door of enemies, and 2339 02:20:16,040 --> 02:20:19,119 Speaker 1: if it's time to target somebody because they think there's 2340 02:20:19,160 --> 02:20:21,120 Speaker 1: an advantage to it in the moment, then they're going 2341 02:20:21,200 --> 02:20:23,320 Speaker 1: to do it. And right now it does seem like 2342 02:20:23,440 --> 02:20:27,400 Speaker 1: reproductive rights is back in the crosshairs alongside LGBTQ rights. 2343 02:20:28,000 --> 02:20:30,600 Speaker 1: Just a couple of weeks ago, there was a rally 2344 02:20:31,200 --> 02:20:35,640 Speaker 1: in southern California outside of a outside of a Walgreens 2345 02:20:35,800 --> 02:20:40,720 Speaker 1: shareholders meeting where a lot of right wing activists were 2346 02:20:40,959 --> 02:20:45,200 Speaker 1: marching through the hotel chanting that Walgreens is killing people 2347 02:20:45,280 --> 02:20:47,640 Speaker 1: because they because you can get an abortion fill through them. 2348 02:20:47,720 --> 02:20:52,320 Speaker 1: I think this has created a very tenuous situation where 2349 02:20:52,480 --> 02:20:54,840 Speaker 1: there's always someone to go after. If it's not planned 2350 02:20:54,879 --> 02:20:57,520 Speaker 1: parenthood this week, next week, go after your local pharmacy, 2351 02:20:57,879 --> 02:21:02,560 Speaker 1: go after your local click, go after your local doctor. 2352 02:21:02,760 --> 02:21:05,920 Speaker 1: The anti abortion movement is very malleable, it's very fluid, 2353 02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:08,960 Speaker 1: and right now they're taken whoever they can get, and 2354 02:21:09,160 --> 02:21:13,880 Speaker 1: that includes a lot of openly radical militant groups who 2355 02:21:13,959 --> 02:21:16,520 Speaker 1: they turn to as groups that can do quote unquote 2356 02:21:16,560 --> 02:21:19,640 Speaker 1: security work, you know, because they're afraid of the left 2357 02:21:19,760 --> 02:21:23,680 Speaker 1: coming and attacking them. The anti abortion movement isn't sewing down, 2358 02:21:24,400 --> 02:21:26,760 Speaker 1: as our guests from across the country of discuss, the 2359 02:21:26,840 --> 02:21:30,200 Speaker 1: more mainstream organizations with deep pockets also aren't attempting to 2360 02:21:30,280 --> 02:21:33,440 Speaker 1: distance themselves from the street level fascist groups flocking to 2361 02:21:33,600 --> 02:21:36,440 Speaker 1: right wing demonstrations, especially at a time when far right 2362 02:21:36,560 --> 02:21:39,800 Speaker 1: violence is escalating across the country. And our last segment, 2363 02:21:39,920 --> 02:21:44,600 Speaker 1: IGD correspondent Marcella speaks on recent anti choice demonstrations which 2364 02:21:44,680 --> 02:21:48,000 Speaker 1: brought together both the mainstream and the fringe, organized in 2365 02:21:48,080 --> 02:21:51,880 Speaker 1: part by Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising, which weaponizes feminist and 2366 02:21:51,959 --> 02:21:56,520 Speaker 1: progressive language against drug store giants CBS and Walgreens an 2367 02:21:56,560 --> 02:22:00,440 Speaker 1: effort to stop them from selling abortion medication. Anti abortion 2368 02:22:00,600 --> 02:22:04,040 Speaker 1: people protest it outside like CBS and Walgreens it's past Saturday, 2369 02:22:04,160 --> 02:22:07,520 Speaker 1: like in multiple places, to prevent pharmacies from selling abortion pills. 2370 02:22:07,720 --> 02:22:10,240 Speaker 1: I'm honestly, like really angry at this, not only because 2371 02:22:10,320 --> 02:22:12,480 Speaker 1: these people are trying to make sure they completely take 2372 02:22:12,520 --> 02:22:14,800 Speaker 1: away our rights to bodily autonomy, but because you're also 2373 02:22:14,879 --> 02:22:17,520 Speaker 1: making me have to defend CVS and Walgreens. I've also 2374 02:22:17,560 --> 02:22:20,080 Speaker 1: thought about protesting outside CVS and Walgreens, but not because 2375 02:22:20,080 --> 02:22:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with other people's to productive organs. I'm tired 2376 02:22:22,560 --> 02:22:25,440 Speaker 1: of them putting everything I need behind a glass anyway, 2377 02:22:25,480 --> 02:22:29,039 Speaker 1: Like these abortion protests outside CBS and Walgreens were organized 2378 02:22:29,040 --> 02:22:32,440 Speaker 1: by the Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising. Yes, I will say 2379 02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:37,600 Speaker 1: that again, the Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising PAAU, which claims 2380 02:22:37,640 --> 02:22:42,400 Speaker 1: to want to dismantle the abortion industrial complex. Honestly, it 2381 02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:45,920 Speaker 1: sounds like the pa You think that you can just 2382 02:22:46,000 --> 02:22:48,440 Speaker 1: add industrial complex to something to make it sound bad, 2383 02:22:48,879 --> 02:22:50,720 Speaker 1: or they're just trying to sound cool to make people 2384 02:22:50,720 --> 02:22:53,280 Speaker 1: forget that they are fascists. Like, one interesting thing about 2385 02:22:53,320 --> 02:22:57,080 Speaker 1: PAU is they want to be so cool that their 2386 02:22:57,200 --> 02:23:01,600 Speaker 1: lead organizer, Lauren Handy, calls herself a femt. I honestly 2387 02:23:01,720 --> 02:23:03,560 Speaker 1: can't believe that I have to say this, but being 2388 02:23:03,600 --> 02:23:07,360 Speaker 1: anti abortion immediately disqualifies you from being a feminist. Fun 2389 02:23:07,480 --> 02:23:10,520 Speaker 1: fact about Laura in Handy is that she randomly, she 2390 02:23:10,600 --> 02:23:13,360 Speaker 1: didn't randomly. She was caught with five fetuses in her 2391 02:23:13,440 --> 02:23:17,160 Speaker 1: apartment and was indicted from blocking a clinic in Washington, 2392 02:23:17,240 --> 02:23:20,199 Speaker 1: DC in twenty and twenty. So she's out here blocking 2393 02:23:20,240 --> 02:23:24,160 Speaker 1: clinics collecting fetuses, just like doing the worst. This is 2394 02:23:24,240 --> 02:23:26,480 Speaker 1: like just the tip of the berg about how like 2395 02:23:26,760 --> 02:23:29,360 Speaker 1: these people are trying to act like their freedom fighters. Well, 2396 02:23:29,480 --> 02:23:33,440 Speaker 1: the PAU spokesperson literally said, and I quote, their vision 2397 02:23:33,520 --> 02:23:37,320 Speaker 1: to turn pharmacies into abortion businesses, which will exploit and 2398 02:23:37,480 --> 02:23:40,640 Speaker 1: kill disproportionately low income people and people of color for 2399 02:23:40,760 --> 02:23:44,119 Speaker 1: profit will be met with non violent resistance at every turn. 2400 02:23:44,280 --> 02:23:47,520 Speaker 1: That's hilarious. These people are literally trying to make fascism 2401 02:23:47,640 --> 02:23:51,120 Speaker 1: sound like freedom fighting like, if PAU actually cared about 2402 02:23:51,200 --> 02:23:53,760 Speaker 1: low income people and people of color, they would be 2403 02:23:53,879 --> 02:23:56,520 Speaker 1: giving away abortion pills that like every corner, not trying 2404 02:23:56,520 --> 02:23:58,840 Speaker 1: to stop people from buying them. And also they'd be 2405 02:23:58,959 --> 02:24:02,160 Speaker 1: boycotting cb US on Walgreens for totally different reasons. They 2406 02:24:02,160 --> 02:24:05,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't be boycotting Walgreens and CBS, we're trying to sell 2407 02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:07,800 Speaker 1: people abortion fills. What they'll be doing is that there 2408 02:24:07,840 --> 02:24:11,040 Speaker 1: would be boycotting Walgreens and CBS for putting toothpaste behind 2409 02:24:11,080 --> 02:24:13,520 Speaker 1: a locked glass, which makes it much harder for poor 2410 02:24:13,640 --> 02:24:16,200 Speaker 1: people to get a five finger discount on things that 2411 02:24:16,320 --> 02:24:18,520 Speaker 1: they need. That is going to do it for us today. 2412 02:24:18,879 --> 02:24:21,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in once again. This has been It's 2413 02:24:21,480 --> 02:24:24,640 Speaker 1: going Down occupying the offices of it could Happen here. 2414 02:24:25,080 --> 02:24:27,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us online It's Going Down dot org, 2415 02:24:28,040 --> 02:24:34,920 Speaker 1: on Macedon, at igd, Underscore News until next time. Hey, 2416 02:24:35,040 --> 02:24:38,160 Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2417 02:24:38,200 --> 02:24:40,760 Speaker 1: now until the heat Death of the Universe. It Could 2418 02:24:40,800 --> 02:24:43,080 Speaker 1: Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 2419 02:24:43,240 --> 02:24:45,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 2420 02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:48,880 Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio, app, 2421 02:24:48,879 --> 02:24:52,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 2422 02:24:52,120 --> 02:24:54,760 Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 2423 02:24:54,840 --> 02:24:58,040 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.