1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Who is that, like, uh, save the whale kid or 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: whatever that was, like you were speaking for us. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: Oh, Gretituneberg, Gretituneburg. 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 3: What happened to her? 5 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 4: By the way, she would take a steamboat from Sweden 6 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 4: to yell at somebody on a on a on a soapbox. 7 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: How old is she now? Has she got an OnlyFans? 8 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 5: I don't. 9 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: Twenty two? 10 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 6: All right, she's of age. 11 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: Oh we're going to hell, we're going together. 12 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 2: Well, she got a solar powered vibrator. I remember. 13 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 4: She got my carbon foot finish. 14 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 7: You're listening to Carbon Bros. 15 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 2: I'm Daniel Penney and I'm Amy Westervelt. 16 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 7: And that was a clip of podcaster theovonn and comedian 17 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 7: Mark Norman talking about watching Gretaituneberg's OnlyFans. 18 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 8: Gross also classic also doesn't exist, so please don't google it. 19 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 7: Last time on Carbon Bros. We traveled back in time 20 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 7: to unspool the connections between masculinity and the domination of 21 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 7: women in the natural world. And we took a whistlestop 22 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 7: tour of the latest in seventeenth century thinking like man's 23 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 7: dominion over the creatures of the earth and women. 24 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: The doctrine of discovery and. 25 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 7: The sanctity of private property, keep off the grass, and 26 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 7: we ended with a gusher on petro masculinity, this idea 27 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 7: that modern manliness, with its obsession with cars in particular, 28 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 7: is just premised on light, sweet crude, and why some 29 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 7: men will defend to the death their right to burn 30 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 7: down the. 31 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 9: Planet from my cold dead Hams. 32 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 8: Today we're looking at why climate protest gets labeled hysterical 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 8: and how the techno solutions offered by ecomodernists and abundance 34 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 8: bros traffic in the same tropes we've been seeing since 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 8: the nineteen sixties when silly women like Rachel Carson just 36 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 8: didn't understand the science. 37 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 7: So that's one side of the coin, a bunch of 38 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 7: overly optimistic tech bros who think carbon capture and geoengineering 39 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 7: are all we need to live long and prosper. But 40 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 7: there's also the other side of the coin, the guys 41 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 7: who are certain that civilization is coming to an end. 42 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 7: And it is overwhelmingly men who hold this view, And 43 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 7: you think we should all either start building bunkers and 44 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 7: stocking up on canned beans, or more radically, who want 45 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 7: us to ditch Planet Earth and start colonizing space. 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 8: And don't get me started on the shape of those rockets. 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 5: Colonel, you better take a look at this radar. What 48 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 5: is it, son, I don't know, sir, but it looks 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 5: like a giant. 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 7: Those big, beautiful phallic rockets. And what these two reactions 51 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 7: to the climate crisis have in common is a weird 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 7: masculine certainty that the solutions are either easy to technical 53 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 7: fixes or that they're so out of reach we might 54 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 7: as well give up now. One is a capitalist fairy 55 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 7: tale where everything will be fine if we just turn 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 7: on enough nuclear reactors and start hoovering carbon out of 57 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 7: the sky, and the other is a vision of apocalypse 58 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 7: and survival of the fittest. And it's always, of course, 59 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 7: these guys who are the most fit. 60 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 8: Yeah, because they're biohacking Daniel. But ultimately they're both fantasies 61 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 8: of control and dependence and escape that ignore the messy 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 8: reality of other people in their existence or the possibilities 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 8: of other ways of. 64 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 7: Living after the break. Climate hysteria doomers and boy math solutions. 65 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 7: Let's start with climate hysteria. This is a major talking 66 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 7: point used to smear people who want to address the 67 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 7: climate crisis, and obviously it's pretty sexist. 68 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 5: Doctor. 69 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 9: What do you know of hysteria? 70 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 5: Ah, nothing, nothing, But it's a plague about time. 71 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 9: It stems from an overactive uterus. In its most severe forms, 72 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 9: it demands drastic measures, institutionalization, surgery. 73 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 10: Even. 74 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. 75 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 8: So, while hysteria has long been debunked as a medical 76 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 8: condition afflicting only females, it's hung around as a way 77 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 8: to insult and dismiss women as irrational. 78 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 7: In the case of the climate crisis, female hysteria is 79 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 7: used to paint protesters as unreasonable. Their claims about what's 80 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 7: happening to the planet are too emotional and they should 81 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 7: just be quiet and leave the climate issue to experts. 82 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 7: Nobody is on the receiving end of this attack more 83 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 7: than climate activists Greta Tuneberg. 84 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 8: Let's go back to twenty nineteen, when the climate movement 85 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 8: was at a high point and Gretaituneberg addressed the UN 86 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 8: here's Australian conservative commentator Chris Kenny. 87 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 9: Instead of dividing facts science, economics, technology costs and benefits, and. 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 4: Of course, policy options, the United Nations hands. 89 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 9: The floor over to a hysterical teenager. 90 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 11: You'll come to us young people for hope. How dare you? 91 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 11: You have stolen my dreams in my childhood with your 92 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 11: empty words, and yet I'm one of the lucky ones. 93 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 7: Well we the lucky ones, to hear about it. The 94 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 7: Aussies are weirdly obsessed with Greta. What's that about it? 95 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 8: There's definitely a lot of Rupert Murdoch to blame there, 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 8: and partly because of him. Now it's not just his 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 8: media but other you know, coal and oil barons have 98 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 8: kind of gotten in on gobbling up media entities. So 99 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 8: at this point, around seventy percent or so of Australian 100 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 8: media is actually controlled by fossil fuel interests of one 101 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 8: kind or another. There's this woman named Gina Reinhardt who's 102 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 8: like a coal baron who owns a bunch of stuff too. Anyway, 103 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 8: I feel like Australia does not get enough credit for 104 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 8: being a full hardcore petro state, and their version of 105 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 8: petro masculinity is like right up there with. 106 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 7: The US variety kriiche. 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 8: Yeah, So for sure, if it's a Murdoch network, they're 108 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 8: gonna be Greta bashing all day long. 109 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 7: And they've done a lot of. 110 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 8: It, and it's not just Murdoch's Australian channels. Here's Michael Knowles, 111 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 8: a Daily Wire contributor who was banned from Fox News 112 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 8: after making this remark. I guess it was a bridge 113 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 8: too far even for them. 114 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 4: The climate hysterian movement is not about science. If it 115 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 4: were about science, it would be led by scientists rather 116 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 4: than by politicians. And a mentally ill Swedish child who 117 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 4: is being exploited by her parents and by the international LaRue. 118 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 4: So what you're seeing here is a political movement and 119 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: a religious movement, and it's a fulfilling religious and political 120 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 4: goals of the left, but it isn't doing very much 121 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 4: for science. 122 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 7: Greta in this clip is being painted as just this 123 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 7: poor little girl with mental problems who's being exploited, and 124 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 7: you know, we need to leave this climate issue to 125 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 7: the real scientists. Of course they don't actually want to 126 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 7: do that either. 127 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 8: No, when women with very specific scientific training on climate 128 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 8: speak up, they get hit with the same stuff, including 129 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 8: even stalking and death threats. Here's doctor Catherine Hajo, one 130 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 8: of the world's leading climate scientists. I'm talking, you know, 131 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 8: more than one hundred and fifty peer reviewed abstracts, journal articles, 132 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 8: and other publications, and she's contributed to four of the 133 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 8: national climate assessments for the US, so like she's not, 134 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 8: you know, a hobbyist. 135 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: She's a very legit climate scientist. 136 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 8: But she was venting to me about this a couple 137 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 8: of years ago, and I was kind of shocked at 138 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 8: just how bad it is. 139 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 5: I even get people calling me to go back to 140 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 5: the kitchen that the problem I have is that too 141 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 5: many women are working that well I should be back 142 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 5: taking care of my children, you know, stuff like that. 143 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 7: And then there's the safety concerns, yeah. 144 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 5: Because most of the people are men, and there are 145 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 5: some serious concerns with safety. The past year, two people 146 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 5: found my home address and sent stuff to my home 147 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 5: address that was really concerning and disturbing. And I have 148 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 5: multiple times seen men kind of wandering up and down 149 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 5: looking at the doors to see if they can find 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 5: my name, and the people I don't know, and then 151 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 5: when I see it, like oh are you got her? Hallo, 152 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 5: and I don't know who they are where they come from. 153 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 7: Unfortunately, there is a much longer history of these sorts 154 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 7: of attacks against female environmental activists and scientists. This goes 155 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 7: back to the very beginnings of the modern environmental movement, 156 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 7: and the work of one woman in particular. 157 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 9: This is one of the nation's best sellers. First printed 158 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 9: on September twenty seven, nineteen sixty two, up to now 159 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 9: five hundred thousand copies have been sold, and Silent Spring 160 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 9: has been called the most controversial book. 161 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 5: Of the year. 162 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 3: If we are ever to solved the basic problem of 163 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: the environmental contamination, we must begin to count the many 164 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: hidden costs of what we are doing. 165 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 7: That, of course, is Rachel Carson talking about her book 166 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 7: Silent Spring, which was published in nineteen sixty two. For 167 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 7: listeners who haven't read Silent Spring yet, you really should. 168 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 7: It's an amazing investigation into the damaged pesticides and other 169 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 7: agricultural and household chemicals were doing to the environment and 170 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 7: human health. 171 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 8: It's also like a really good read. I actually just 172 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 8: reread this recently, and I was like, dang, Rachel Carson 173 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 8: was a really good writer. 174 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 7: So it's like, yeah, it was. It was published in 175 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 7: the New. 176 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 8: Yorker, Yes, yes, exactly, and it revealed that the chemical 177 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 8: industry and the US government had been lying for decades 178 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 8: about the dangers of these products. So that kicked off 179 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 8: a whole public debate about just how much the public 180 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 8: should trust the word of industry experts. This is an 181 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 8: industry scientist responding to Carson at the time. 182 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 9: Carson maintains that the balance of nature is a major 183 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 9: force in the survival of man, whereas the modern chemist, 184 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 9: the modern biologist, the modern scientist believes that man is 185 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 9: steadily controlling nature. 186 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 8: It's important to remember that the chemicals industry was relatively 187 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 8: new at the time that Carson's book came out. I mean, 188 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,359 Speaker 8: part of the reason that her book was so interesting 189 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 8: and sold while was that, you know, this was this 190 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 8: somewhat new industry that had only been around really for 191 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 8: like maybe ten twenty years, and that people had mostly 192 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 8: been told was like great and futuristic and amazing. So 193 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 8: for her to come in and say, I don't know, 194 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 8: it was challenging. And then there was this idea that 195 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 8: these guys, and they were always guys in their white 196 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 8: lab coats, like in the lab, creating things like this 197 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 8: was the future. 198 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 12: We want. 199 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 13: Every day that we. 200 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 14: Got everything for. 201 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 8: This was like progress for America versus these primitive biologists 202 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 8: outdoing field research and like hugging trees. Right, It's like 203 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 8: the guys in the lab were creating the future. Those 204 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 8: guys were just like catching butterflies and nuts. And add 205 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 8: to that the fact that Carson was a woman. 206 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: You get the idea of why this was like so 207 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: for them. 208 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 7: But it wasn't enough for them to just constantly point 209 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 7: out she's a woman. They really threw everything at Carson, 210 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 7: that you know she wasn't a real scientist, that this 211 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 7: was some sort of personal vendetta because she had cancer, 212 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 7: that she was a big old lesbian. Here's that industry 213 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 7: scientist again. In a CBS News special, his name was 214 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 7: doctor Robert White Stevens. 215 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 9: Miss Carson is concerned with every possibility of hazard and danger. 216 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 9: What is the agricultural school has to concern itself with 217 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 9: the probability the likely hood of danger and assess that 218 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 9: against utility. If we had to investigate every possibility, we 219 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 9: would never make any advances at all, because this would 220 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 9: require an infinite time for experimental work and we would 221 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 9: never be finished. 222 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 3: Yet the public was being asked to accept these chemicals, 223 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 3: was being asked to acquiesce in their use, and did 224 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 3: not have the whole picture. So I said, about to 225 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: remedy the balance. 226 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 7: There, Wow, sounds like a classic case of hysteria. 227 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, get that lady some bed rest and pills. 228 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: She's a star. 229 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 8: Star. And of course, what we see in the Carson 230 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 8: episode is not just women and environmentalists being branded as hysterical, 231 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 8: but also the emergence of this idea that chemistry and 232 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 8: tech are uniquely masculine and therefore uniquely good at solving problems, 233 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 8: and that using science and tech to solve big problems 234 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 8: is obviously superior to caring about pussy shit like birds. 235 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, fuck those birds, and yeah, the same attitude you'll 236 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 7: get from folks who push things like nuclear, geoengineering and 237 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 7: carbon capture as climate solutions. It's also not a coincidence 238 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 7: that the oil industry's favorite climate solution and the only 239 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 7: one who's funding wasn't cut in Trump's Big Beautiful Bill, 240 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 7: was carbon capture. 241 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. 242 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 7: I spoke with Michael Levian, a professor of sociology at 243 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 7: Johns Hopkins who studies the oil, coal, and gas industries, 244 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 7: and we talked about the hype around carbon capture in 245 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 7: his home state of Louisiana and what he calls reactionary decarbonization. 246 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 13: It's being promoted by the fossil fuel industry. All the 247 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 13: companies involved are pretty much in the fossil fuel industry, 248 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 13: and this is just the extension of fossil fuel infrastructure. 249 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 15: But instead of just of. 250 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 13: Denialist talking points, they are now kind of positioning themselves 251 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 13: as leaders in carbage management, right, so they're actually going 252 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 13: to be the leaders of the energy transition. And all 253 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 13: the kind of silly protesters and so on who go 254 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 13: on about emissions are sort of like childish, and we're 255 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 13: doing the serious work of building the kind of low 256 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 13: carbon future. 257 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 7: Which is basically where CO two, either from refineries and 258 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 7: factories or from natural gas production, is captured and stored 259 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 7: either underground or in containers above ground, or it's transported 260 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 7: to an oil field where it's blasted underground to get 261 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 7: more oil out through a process called enhanced oil recovery, 262 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 7: which is absolutely not a climate solution. Yeah. 263 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 8: I love, I mean, this is like the most amazing, 264 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 8: magical thinking I think I've ever seen from the oil 265 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 8: and I mean, honestly, kudos to them, fucking genius move. Personally, 266 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 8: I prefer this the carbon sky vacuum, also known as 267 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 8: direct air capture, where they just try to suck CEO 268 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 8: two out of the sky so that theoretically we can 269 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 8: admit as much as we want forever. Yeah, carbon capture 270 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 8: is basically a way for oil companies to maintain the 271 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 8: status quo and pretend that they're solving climate at the 272 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 8: same time. 273 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 7: But setting aside the fact that the math behind carbon 274 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 7: capture does not add up, Michael's more interested in the 275 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 7: politics of this so called climate solution and how people 276 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 7: are accepting or fighting it. 277 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 13: The other piece of this is, you know that, and 278 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 13: this is why a lot of environmental justice groups are 279 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 13: opposed to ccs, is that one, okay, perpetuates the existing 280 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 13: petrochemical plants who they want to shut down that are 281 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 13: poisoning their communities, especially you know Louisiana Black communities in 282 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 13: Cancer Rally and around Lake Charles, and the kind of 283 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 13: CCS kind of prolongs their life and makes them seem 284 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 13: clean when in fact, you know, the carbon capture technology 285 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 13: only captures the co two. It doesn't capture the additional 286 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 13: pollutants that are coming out of those factories. 287 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 7: And you've got an industry that already has quite a 288 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 7: few spills from its pipelines building a whole new pipeline 289 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 7: infrastructure for a substance that can cause some real problems 290 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 7: if it leaks. While climate deniers love to talk about 291 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 7: CO two being good for plants in high concentrations, it 292 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 7: will kill you. 293 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 13: So CO two is not toxic, but it's an asphyxiate, 294 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 13: so it displaces oxygen and can suffocate you. And in Starsha, Mississippi, 295 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 13: a handful of years ago, maybe it was four years ago, 296 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 13: one of the existing CO two pipelines running through that 297 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 13: state runs from City, Texas. It it leaked and it 298 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 13: sent forty something people to hospital almost you know, almost 299 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 13: ad asphyxiating, foaming. 300 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 7: At the mouth, which begs the question why would anyone 301 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 7: want this in their community? But Michael says, so far 302 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 7: it's mostly environmental justice groups fighting it, and that not surprisingly, 303 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 7: there's a pretty significant gender and racial divide on this issue. 304 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 13: Is there a reason why we see a lot of 305 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 13: the environmental justice struggles being organized by women, and is 306 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 13: that because of the way men are more absorbed into 307 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 13: the industrial economy through their jobs. Does it have to 308 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 13: do with the division of labor in the household and 309 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 13: who is home suffering from the pollution war of the 310 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 13: day or who is doing the care work for people 311 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 13: who are sick, dying of cancer, or kids who have 312 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 13: respiratory disease. 313 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 8: And they've put a neat little rhetorical trick here too. 314 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 8: Sometimes you'll see technocratic folks using the language of environmental 315 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 8: justice to push their ideas as better for the world 316 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 8: than things like reducing consumption or increasing efficiency. Darigrmitt goes, Roughly, 317 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 8: those environmentalists want to go back to some sort of 318 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 8: primitive state of pristine nature. But we want humans to 319 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 8: thrive and technology can do that for us. 320 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 7: Yeah, don't you care about people in the third world? Amy, Yes, exactly. 321 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: It's it's that thing. 322 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 7: This has basically become the abundance line. 323 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 8: Yes, And of course we are talking here about the 324 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 8: book Abundance by journalists Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson that 325 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 8: you've probably seen clips about all over social media if 326 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 8: you are a person with internet access in twenty twenty five. 327 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 7: And we should say about Abundance as our client's book. 328 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 7: We don't want to paint it in like a completely 329 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,719 Speaker 7: broad brush. There are some ideas in there that are 330 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 7: worth debating or exploring, but the thing is that it 331 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 7: has become a kind of wedge or like an icebreaker 332 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 7: being used by the right to force through all kinds 333 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 7: of policies that are absolutely not climate solutions totally. 334 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 8: The thing that I find really interesting about the abundance 335 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 8: stuff is that I don't know whether Ezra kleine knew 336 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 8: that the Koch brothers and people like Chris Wright, our 337 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 8: energy secretary, were using this framing for like the last 338 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 8: ten years as like a really pretty clever way to 339 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 8: push expansion of fossil fuel development. But they were, they 340 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 8: have been for quite a while, and this just he 341 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 8: just mainstreamed it. I don't know if you meant to, 342 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 8: but that's the net result. And so now it's become 343 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 8: this shorthand of like you're either for abundance and like 344 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 8: who's against abundance, right, or you're like, you know, a 345 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 8: colorless shrew who doesn't want anyone to ever have any fun, 346 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 8: like Greta Tunberg. Every time I hear the word, I 347 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 8: think of this like I think of like a really 348 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 8: like foul smelling men's cologne, passion fire. 349 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: Their abundance. 350 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 9: It stays so good. 351 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 8: So you know, this is not a new idea for 352 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 8: the climate sphere either. There are a lot of people 353 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 8: who have been kind of pushing the argument, which is 354 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 8: overarchingly that are you know, this is obviously it's a 355 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 8: whole book, so like, don't let us stop you from 356 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 8: reading it. By all means, read the whole book. There 357 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 8: are some good ideas in there, and there are some 358 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 8: you know, there's some stupid ones too. 359 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but but in. 360 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 8: General it's it's the same old, same old of like, 361 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 8: you know, if we can get everyone up to a 362 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 8: certain level of economic stability, then that will be what 363 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 8: kind of fixes everything else. We can tech and growth 364 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 8: hack our way to solving a bunch of these problems. 365 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 8: In that way, we don't have to ask anyone to 366 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 8: sacrifice anything or scare anyone with climate crisis narratives and 367 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 8: things like that. A lot of that stuff, and that's 368 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 8: been around for quite a long time, especially the techno 369 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 8: optimist side of it, although it has gone under a 370 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 8: different brand name in the climate space for a while back. 371 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 8: When I started working as a climate journalist, we called 372 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 8: it ecomodernism. Here's Ted Nordhaus, author and the director of 373 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 8: research at the Breakthrough Institute, laying out the ecomodernist argument 374 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 8: in an interview we did a couple of years ago. 375 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 12: You know, historically there have been sort of two defining 376 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 12: ideas in the modern environmental sort of discourse, and one 377 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 12: is that we sort of need to shrink the human footprint, 378 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 12: the footprint of human activities to reduce the impact on 379 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 12: the environment. And the second is that we need to 380 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 12: harmonize human societies with nature and with the natural world. 381 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 12: We need to get back closer to nature. And in 382 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 12: the manifesto we argue that you can do one of 383 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 12: those things, but you can't do both of them. And 384 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 12: obviously we argue that it's the former that in a 385 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 12: world with seven billion people going on nine or ten 386 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 12: billion people, most of whom want to live something that 387 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 12: looks like a modern life, you just need much more 388 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 12: efficient technologies, you know, environmentally efficient, you need cities, you 389 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 12: need energy density, you need intensive, really efficient agriculture. And 390 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 12: if you don't have those things, you're just going to 391 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 12: turn the entire planet into like a kind of big farm. Basically, 392 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 12: people are going to be poor, they're actually going to 393 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 12: be higher emission, and you're going to just destroy all 394 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 12: of the biodiversity that remains. And so, you know, better 395 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 12: technologies are the thing, and technology is the kind of 396 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 12: key folk rum that kind of mediates that relationship between 397 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 12: living standards and environmental consequences of those living standards. 398 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 8: But Nordoues didn't spread the good word alone. He co 399 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 8: authored the Ecomodernist Manifesto with a bunch of guys, but 400 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 8: especially with one guy who'd been his longtime collaborator and 401 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 8: who has already appeared in another episode of Carbon Bros. 402 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: And Guess What, Daniel. 403 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 8: He's also a frequent guest on another of our favorite podcasts, 404 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 8: The Joe Rogan Experience. 405 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 14: Climate change is just going to be solved by producing 406 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 14: energy without carbon emissions. Like it's just a technical problem. 407 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 14: It's not like, oh, we all have to ride our bikes. 408 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 14: I love riding my bike. But it's like it became 409 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 14: the moralizing and the wokee culture. 410 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: Global cooling is way scarier than global warming. 411 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 7: Michael Shellenberger. Of course, in case some of you missed 412 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 7: this Easter egg, he was a guy saying that we 413 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 7: needed to stop scaring kids about climate change, and his 414 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 7: story is kind of a perfect illustration of the way 415 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 7: the manisphere and climate did course overlap. Amy. I'm going 416 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 7: to hand you the mic because I know Schallenberger is 417 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 7: kind of an obsession of yours. What's his deal? 418 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 8: I am, I'm totally fascinated by this guy, because twenty 419 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 8: ish years ago he was seen as this kind of 420 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 8: genius propagandist of the left. 421 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: Actually he like radical left, far left. 422 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 8: He worked for all these environmental nonprofits, but he was 423 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 8: also Ugo Chavez's pr guy for some period of time, 424 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 8: and he you know, like lived in Brazil for a while, 425 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 8: and he was hanging out with all of these kind 426 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 8: of really like radical leftist groups. He was actually the 427 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 8: guy who really got the world to start paying attention 428 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 8: to Nike's use of sweatshop labor in like late nineties, 429 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 8: early two thousands, for example. Then he started to get 430 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 8: a few criticisms here and there for occasional blind spots 431 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 8: around gender or race or class. 432 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 7: And this is a classic Manisphere of Origin story. Unfairly 433 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 7: canceled man would rather become a right wing grifter than 434 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 7: apologize right. 435 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 8: So in the early two thousands, he teams up with 436 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 8: Ted Northhaus, who's also been working for a bunch of 437 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 8: environmental organizations and is similarly kind of annoyed by them, 438 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 8: and the two of them co write this essay really 439 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 8: laying into environmentalists. They called it Death of Environmentalism, and 440 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 8: they like printed it out and handed out print copies 441 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 8: of it at this big conference in Hawaii that all 442 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 8: of these high level environmental philanthropists were at, and they 443 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 8: argued that the environmental movement had gotten two set in 444 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 8: its ways, that it needed to stop being so afraid 445 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 8: of capitalism and technology, that it needed to focus less 446 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 8: on polar bears and more on people. 447 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 15: Oh my gosh, now you bring it back some history. 448 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:53,239 Speaker 9: I know. 449 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 8: This is from an interview Shallenberger did with me back 450 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 8: in twenty twenty one when his book Apocalypse never came out, 451 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 8: So this is like his big addition to the universe 452 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 8: of climate skeptic literature. Schallenberger is an interesting case because 453 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 8: he definitely acknowledges that climate change is real and it's happening, 454 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 8: and it's caused by human emissions. But his argument is that, like, 455 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 8: it's not as bad as everyone says, and that we 456 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 8: should stop freaking out about it. So he described the 457 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 8: book as sort of a bookend to the conversation that 458 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 8: he and Nordhouse started with Death of Environmentalism. 459 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 15: For me, it's it's really a bookend on death of Environmentalism. 460 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 15: I think there's almost no chance I'm going to do 461 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 15: another book on the environment. I anticipate I will always 462 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 15: write on the environment, always work on the environment. But 463 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 15: I'm excited that for this, I feel like I've cleared 464 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 15: this part of my LIFEVE kind of got to the 465 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 15: bottom of it. I've said my piece. 466 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 7: So he got on the gender train because he ran 467 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 7: out of things to say about climate that can't be right. 468 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 8: No, a few things happened on his way to the manosphere. First, 469 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 8: him and his best bro ted Nordhouse. 470 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: They broke up. 471 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 8: Yeah, it was sad because they were genuine, real friends, 472 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 8: Like they were always together. They co authored everything. Really, 473 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 8: I can't think of a single thing that they wrote 474 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 8: during this time that wasn't co authored. They were always 475 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 8: in interviews together, every event they did, they were on 476 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 8: panels together. It was just this total bromance. They were 477 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 8: best men at each other's weddings. They were tight, like 478 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 8: really tight. And twenty fifteen, Michael and Ted worked on 479 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 8: the last thing they would ever co write together, and 480 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 8: Ecomodernist Manifesto. This was sort of an updated version of 481 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 8: the Death of Environmentalism essay that they'd written before, laying 482 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 8: out a pretty similar argument, but with a lot more 483 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 8: defense of tech. And after it came out, Michael left 484 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 8: Breakthrough to start his own organization. It was called Environmental 485 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 8: Progress and it focused on saving nuclear plants from what 486 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 8: Schollenberger saw as angry mobs of environmentalists who wanted to 487 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 8: shut them down. 488 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 7: But how does he get from defending nuclear reactors to 489 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 7: defending the rights of downtrodden young men? 490 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 14: Thank Heaven for young men finding their testosterone around the world, 491 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 14: breaking from the woke orthodoxy saying masculinity is not toxic, 492 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 14: masculinity is natural and healthy and needed. 493 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 8: It's really this whole k not of things that we've 494 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 8: been talking about. So first he keeps kind of getting 495 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 8: kicked out of the clubs he's in and finding new 496 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 8: groups of people to take him in, and they're progressively 497 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 8: more right leaning and conspiratorial. And then you know, there's 498 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 8: money too, So he gets in with the heterodox free 499 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 8: press folks. This is Barry Weiss's whole thing, and he 500 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 8: starts his own newsletter, and then Barry Weis invites him 501 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 8: in on the Twitter files and the whole time his 502 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 8: profile is rising and he's starting to bring and really 503 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 8: big subscriber money on substack and a lot bigger checks 504 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 8: to his organization, again from more and more conservative entities, and. 505 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 7: At some point he starts calling himself a journalist too, 506 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 7: which is just that gives me some adjecta. 507 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 8: I know it's kind of galling, but it's also really 508 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 8: critical to how he's been able to build credibility in 509 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 8: this world. So, by my account, Shallenberger has changed his 510 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 8: bio at least four times in the past five or 511 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 8: so years. First he called himself a writer and an author. 512 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 8: Then he was self publishing a blog on Forbes, so 513 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 8: he called himself a journalist. Then it was environmental journalist, 514 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 8: then it was Leading Environmental Journalist. Then his friend Barry 515 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 8: Weiss brought him in on the Twitter files and he 516 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,719 Speaker 8: wrote one Twitter thread and changed his bio to leading 517 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 8: Investigative Journalist. From that point on, especially because of the 518 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 8: Barry Weiss Elon Musk effect, he really blew up. So 519 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 8: three of his four Joe Rogan appearances have been since 520 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 8: late twenty twenty two. His substack has exploded too, so 521 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 8: he's kind of had to keep feeding the beast. The 522 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 8: posts there have become increasingly conspiratorial and Schellenberger has really 523 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 8: started to become the manosphere's climate guy, not just because 524 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 8: he's so good at promoting himself, which he is, but 525 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 8: also because he actually has a certain amount of credibility 526 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 8: that most of the other guests who go on these 527 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 8: shows to talk about climate just do not have. So, 528 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,959 Speaker 8: you know, Jordan Peterson talks a lot about climate change, 529 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 8: but he doesn't know shit about climate science. He's a 530 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 8: clinical psychologist. Schellenberger, on the other hand, was actually a 531 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 8: pretty legit climate dude for a really long time. He 532 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 8: might have had opinions that mainstream climate people disagreed with, 533 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 8: and that might have become more and more true over years, 534 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 8: but you know, he was in the conversations. He actually 535 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 8: knows stuff, and he can play this whole reformed environmentalist 536 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 8: card that's like catnet for people. Plus he still leans 537 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 8: on his connections to the Breakthrough Institute for credibility. 538 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 7: And did the Breakthrough Institute still support him because it 539 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 7: seems like he's gone way past the ecomodernist zone into 540 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 7: the danger zone. 541 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he totally has. 542 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 8: And for a long time they kind of kept quiet 543 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 8: about it, Like the most they would do would just 544 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 8: sort of be like, you know, that's him. He hasn't 545 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 8: been with us for a while, like our take is this, 546 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 8: and like kept it at that. But in twenty twenty four, 547 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 8: Ted Northouse finally like fully publicly denounced Schellenberger in this 548 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 8: very scathing blog post that I'm convinced like sent him 549 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 8: further down the path to the manosphere. 550 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 16: His original superpower was for finding an audience and getting 551 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 16: its attention. I find what Michael has become in recent years, 552 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 16: on the one hand, entirely predictable, not because of his politics, 553 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 16: which were always more malleable than many might have imagined, 554 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 16: but because of his personality, which always cast himself as 555 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 16: a heroic agent of history. And yet it is also 556 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 16: completely gob stopping. His politics, his writing, his demeanor, and 557 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 16: even his physical appearance is hardly recognizable to me any longer. 558 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 8: It is that I actually when I read it was like, ooh, 559 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 8: like ouch, I feel bad for anyone that like would 560 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 8: have a close friend write this about them. 561 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 7: That's like e' it's kind of similar to what happened 562 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 7: to Naomi Klin. 563 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 8: I think, wait, you mean the other Naomi, the bad Naomi. 564 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 7: Sorry, not Naomi Klin. This is what her whole book 565 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 7: is there Naomi Wolf. 566 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 8: Yes, yes, like the whole feminist community turned on her 567 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 8: or she felt like they did, right, and then yeah, 568 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 8: I mean I actually feel like this is a thing 569 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 8: that happens not infrequently, and al it like kind of 570 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 8: gets weirdly discounted. But like, man, people's personal feelings do 571 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 8: tend to be major drivers of things that they do 572 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 8: in life. 573 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 7: I think people in the minisphere would disagree because, you know, 574 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 7: facts don't care about your feelings. Yeah, we're all about. 575 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 2: Facts here, Fuck feelings. 576 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 3: This is like a. 577 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 7: Story that you know, you could go back to the 578 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 7: like origins of the neo conservative movement, Like so many 579 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 7: of those people were leftists who then became somehow disenchanted 580 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 7: with the left and wound up on the right. 581 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 8: And a lot of times it is like a personal 582 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 8: slight of some kind. I know so many climate operative guys, 583 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 8: like hardcore climate you know, that spend all their time 584 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 8: just trying to like tear down environmentalists, right, and like 585 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 8: almost all of them have some story of like being 586 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 8: a pretty standard you know, scientist or something, and then 587 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 8: like an EPA official was like condescending and rude to them, 588 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 8: and then like here we are. 589 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 7: Their vegetarian girlfriend broke up with them. 590 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 8: Yes, I mean Tucker Carlson right, Like that's his mom 591 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 8: was like a hippie vegetarian and like abandoned him. And 592 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 8: I swear to God that has so much to do 593 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 8: with his entire trajectory. 594 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 7: That's actually an interesting theory. 595 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 2: Everyone go to therapy. 596 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 7: So Shellenberger has really landed at this point where he's 597 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 7: saying climate change is not that big a deal, we 598 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 7: have the technology to fix it, and that tech is 599 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 7: nuclear for him, and climate activism is just part of 600 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 7: like the woke mind virus. 601 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally sums it up. 602 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 8: And he's really emblematic of ecomodernists, even though some of 603 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 8: them think climate is more of a problem than he does, 604 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 8: and others might have a different preferred technological solution like 605 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 8: deew engineering or carbon capture or whatever their thing is. 606 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 8: But it'll be really interesting to see if his new 607 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 8: friends in the tech world he's hanging out a lot with, 608 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 8: like Elon Musk and JD. Vance in that whole universe, 609 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 8: It'll be interesting to see if those guys shift his 610 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 8: thinking any because they have a completely different tech will 611 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 8: fix it worldview. 612 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 7: Unlike Schellenberger. They think the climate crisis is apocalyptic to 613 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 7: some extent, and tech will fix it by protecting us 614 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 7: or protecting them from that apocalypse. And the hysterical climate 615 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 7: activists and anyone questioning gender norms, those people are still 616 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 7: the enemy, and they're an enemy that hopefully will burn 617 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 7: up in a fiery or drowned in a rising sea. 618 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's like very eerily similar to the beliefs of 619 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 8: a lot of like end Day's religious groups. Actually, which 620 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 8: I'm sure the tech guys would totally reject that comparison, 621 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 8: but like, having spent time with those people and talked 622 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 8: to them about their beliefs, it's really shockingly similar. So 623 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 8: before Schallenberger took the stage at Jordan Peterson's ARC conference 624 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 8: this year, the audience heard from a guy named Eric Weinstein. 625 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: And this guy's like he has like a weird. 626 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 8: Space within the manosphere and the tech kind of universe. 627 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 8: He was the former longtime managing director of Teal Capital, 628 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 8: that's Peter Teal's venture capital fund. Weinstein claims to have 629 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 8: coined the term intellectual dark web. 630 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 2: Do you remember this? 631 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 17: Oh yeah, I remember the intellectual dark web, Yes, of 632 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 17: which you know Wise and Michael Schllenberger definitely count themselves 633 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 17: members and he is also a repeat Joe Rogan guest. 634 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: All of these people appear to be in Locke step. 635 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: This is coordinated through the whole of society approach. Because 636 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: they have chosen the name for it, we will call 637 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 1: them pose. 638 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 2: Did he just call us hose, Yes, yes he did. 639 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 8: This talk that he gave it, ARC was was like 640 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 8: very unhinged. 641 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: This really really something. 642 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 7: More unhinged than Schellenberger is. That's impressive. 643 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 2: That really yeah, he really went there. 644 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: I would put to you that we are the benighted 645 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: rest of society. ARC represents the bros benighted rest of 646 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: society fighting Klaus and Davos in the World Economic Forum, 647 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: who at least knows that there's a war when we 648 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 1: do not. Culture war hypothesis is that the culture war 649 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,399 Speaker 1: is domestic hybrid war. Earth is our womb, not our home. 650 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: We cannot stay here because we have to go. We 651 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: cannot all share one atmosphere safely. The tools are too powerful. 652 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: If an indefinite human future can be restored, and I 653 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: believe that it can, there is one way out, and 654 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: that's physics. 655 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 7: When he said he couldn't share the same atmosphere. All 656 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 7: I could think about was that scene in Total Recall 657 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 7: where everybody is slowly asphyxiating. Sir, the oxygen level is 658 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 7: bottoming out in sector G. 659 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 17: What do you want me to do about it? 660 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 3: Don't do anything. 661 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 7: But they won't last an hour, sir. 662 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 2: Lock them. Such a weird thing to say, But yeah, 663 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: like a lot. 664 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 5: Of these guys talk like this. 665 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: Here's Peter Til just. 666 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 8: A couple months ago on one of the New York 667 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 8: Times opinion podcasts. 668 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 6: Mars is supposed to be more than a science project. 669 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 6: It's supposed to be a political project. And then when 670 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 6: you concretize it, you have to start thinking through, well, 671 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 6: the woki will follow you, the socialist government to follow you, 672 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 6: and then maybe you have to do something other than 673 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 6: just going to Mars. 674 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 7: You can't even escape the woke mind virus on Mars. 675 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 7: Of course, Til also spent a large segment of that 676 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 7: podcast interview obsessing over Greta Tundberg, who he no joke 677 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 7: called the Antichrist. 678 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 6: The way the Antichrist would take over the world is 679 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 6: you talk about armageddon NonStop, you talk about existential risk NonStop. 680 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 6: And this is what you need to regulate. It's the 681 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 6: opposite of the picture of Baconian science from the seventeenth 682 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 6: eighteenth century, where you know, the Antichrist is like some 683 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 6: evil tech genius, evil scientists who invents this machine to 684 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 6: take over the world. People are way too scared for that. 685 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 6: In our world, the thing that has political resonance is 686 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 6: the opposite, the thing that has political resonances. We need 687 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 6: to stop science, We need to just say stop to this. 688 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 6: And this is where yeah, I don't know. In the 689 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 6: seventeenth century, I can imagine a doctor Strange Love Edward 690 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 6: Teller type person taking over the world. In our world, 691 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 6: it's far more likely to be Greta Thunberg. 692 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he did. 693 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 8: That part was really really something, and it puts Teal 694 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 8: in his Pals squarely in the camp of what researcher 695 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 8: Hannah Morris calls apocalyptic authoritarianism. 696 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 10: There was a lot of anxiety and fear and recognition 697 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 10: of the risks of climate change. Why introduce apocablic authoritarianism 698 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 10: is that with this feeling of just total instability, total anxiety, 699 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 10: there became there's imagining of a certain group as being 700 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 10: saved and those who are more traditional figures of power, 701 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 10: those who claim to be able to right the ship 702 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,240 Speaker 10: again in return on the stable path of manifest destiny, 703 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 10: you bring the nation out of this. And this led 704 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 10: to a lot of reactionary posturing that united the traditional 705 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 10: figures of power on the rights and in the center, 706 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 10: who are united around this common enemy of the so 707 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 10: called new New Left that was blamed as further suspending 708 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 10: the nation in the world into total crisis and position 709 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 10: these sort of traditional figures as the ultimate authorities that 710 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 10: must be followed. 711 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 7: For all their obsessing about Greta being apocalyptic, Hanna says, 712 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 7: it's Musk and Teal who are part of that grand 713 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 7: tradition of apocalyptic environmentalism, not unlike a group started in 714 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 7: the nineteen fifties called peak oil or the peak Oil movement, 715 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 7: and those folks they call themselves peakists, have for decades 716 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 7: been predicting that we will run out of oil and 717 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 7: it will cause sudden chaos. 718 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 10: A part of this is, of course, it's apocalyptic fear 719 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 10: of toll destruction. But key to this, and what you 720 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 10: can see from apocalyptic environmentalism as it comes and goes, 721 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 10: is that there's this assumption that there is a saved group. 722 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 10: And so for the peak oil movement, it was those 723 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 10: who knew about peak oil and who started preparing. You know, 724 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 10: those are the origins of preppers and proper societies and 725 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 10: building post apocalyptic bunkers and learning how to survive in 726 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 10: harsh conditions. So those who are part of the peak 727 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 10: oil movement imagine themselves as surviving this total collapse industrial civilization. 728 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 7: I would say peak oil is kind of the right 729 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 7: wing mirror image to the population bomb, so does does 730 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 7: In the sixties, there was this kind of end of 731 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 7: the world conspiracy, more associated with like the left side 732 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 7: of the environmental movement, and that the population was increasing 733 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 7: too quickly and that we would consume too many resources 734 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 7: and we wouldn't be able to handle all the people 735 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 7: on planet Earth, and that we would have a kind 736 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 7: of civilizational collapse as a result. And the right loves 737 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 7: to bring up the fact that the population bomb predictions 738 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 7: did not come to passy pan out. Yes. 739 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 8: In fact, actually Michael Schellenberger does this all the time, 740 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 8: except he references not just that, but he takes it 741 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 8: all the way back to Thomas Malthus, and he says 742 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 8: the word Malthusian in such an annoying way that I'm 743 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 8: going to have to play it for you here. 744 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 15: Well, Malthusian. 745 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 14: Malthusianism. 746 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 10: Yeah, there's this consistent tapping into this real disdain and 747 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 10: this real feeling of needing to control people. And also 748 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 10: it's taken to an extreme when people are sort of 749 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 10: position you know, the masses, the people are positioned as 750 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 10: also unnecessary. This chaos that is predicted with climate apocalypse, 751 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 10: for example, and the mass death that's imagined is almost 752 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,800 Speaker 10: welcomed by some figures like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, 753 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 10: the techno libertarian extreme, where they almost morbidly celebrate the 754 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 10: prospect of their being this apocalypse, this mass death and 755 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 10: destruction of the masses, because then it affords them the 756 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 10: opportunity to have total control power. There's no accountability, there's 757 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,479 Speaker 10: no need for that pesky thing called democracy because everyone's gone. 758 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 10: It's just them, and they're able to now build their fifetoms, 759 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 10: their colonies on Mars there, you know, they can do 760 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 10: what they want. 761 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 7: If you're hearing a lot of masculine tropes that we've 762 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 7: been talking about this season echo throughout that there is 763 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 7: a good reason. Morris says, this is a distinctly male phenomenon. 764 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 7: And here she's talking about the peak GISTs again. 765 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 10: They learned about this peak oil and this collapse of civilization, 766 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 10: and this provide them a sense of control, a sense 767 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 10: of power because of feeling like they are among a minority, 768 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 10: a small minority of people who knew what the future holds, 769 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 10: and that they can then navigate through that through their 770 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 10: sort of rugged individualism, this frontiersman kind of identity, and 771 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 10: start tapping into really longstanding American masculine identities of feeling 772 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 10: as though there's a special trait among American men who 773 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 10: can really grapple with harsh conditions and build a new society, 774 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 10: build a new civilization. And it's interesting to see that 775 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 10: there was this sense of control and empowerment that came 776 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 10: over the members of the peak oil movement, which are 777 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 10: eighty nine percent white, middle class men. So it's a certain, 778 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 10: very particular demographic that are clearly trying to find a 779 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 10: sense of purpose, a sense of direction, a sense of 780 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 10: control in their lives among periods of social change. 781 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 8: Jesus Christ, it's the cool dudes, just over and over again, 782 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,399 Speaker 8: world without end. Amen. But I do think that this 783 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 8: thing Hannah's talking about here about these men wanting a 784 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 8: sense of purpose and control is really key to how 785 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 8: we fix some of the issues that we've been talking 786 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,320 Speaker 8: about throughout this series. 787 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 7: Next time the real solutions, whether that's finding democratic candidates 788 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,320 Speaker 7: who can actually appeal to young men using the language 789 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 7: that resonates with them, or policies that help men and 790 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 7: women connect their everyday lives to the problems of climate change, 791 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 7: or the narratives that we can use to change the 792 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:56,520 Speaker 7: conversation and invite men back into the climate movement because frankly, 793 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 7: we can't do it without them. Join us next time 794 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 7: Carbon Brose for integration. 795 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 8: Carbon Brose is an original series from Drilled and Non Toxic, 796 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 8: written by me Amy Westerveldt. 797 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 7: And by me Daniel Penny. 798 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 8: Our senior producer and sound designer is Martin Zoldzkostwick. 799 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 2: He also composed our theme song. 800 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 7: Check his stuff out. 801 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 8: Our engineer is Peter Duff. Fact checking by Shilpa Jindia. 802 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 7: Original artwork by Matthew Fleming. 803 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 8: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton, with the First 804 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 8: Amendment Project marketing by Maggie Taylor. 805 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 2: Check out a Non Toxic podcast 806 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 8: For more on the Manosphere and good at Drill Media 807 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,280 Speaker 8: for more climate reporting and to support our work.