1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time for 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: an episode from the Vault. This one originally published January seventeenth, 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, and it's the first part in our 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 2: series on horror vakue the fear of the Void. Hope 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: you enjoy. 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: name is Robert. 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going to 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: be starting up a series on the subject of horror VAKUI, 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: which can be translated directly as fear of the void, 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: but has also been paraphrased in the form of the 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: statement nature of horrors of vacuum. Now, I think this 16 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: is going to be a great subject for us because 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: this principle has facets that appear in art, psychology, and 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: all kinds of other domains. But it's often traced all 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 2: the way back in its origin to the scientific writings 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: of Aristotle in the fourth century BCE, though Aristotle did 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 2: not use exactly this phrase, of course, how could he. 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: It's Latin, but he did argue in his book on 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 2: Physics that the concept of a vacuum in nature was 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: implausible and in fact even worthy of ridicule. So this 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 2: occurs in Aristotle's famous Physics. This is book four, part eight, 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: though his attempted refutation of vacuum physics spans several sections. 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: I think it's like parts six through nine of the 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: book or so. And it's interesting that Aristotle does not 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: approach this subject from first principles, but instead he approaches 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: it by entering an ongoing debate among other philosophers where 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: there's a camp arguing against the existence of empty space, 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: and that apparently contains figures like Enexagoras, and then there's 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: a camp that argues for the existence of empty space, 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: and that contains the Pythagorean school and others. So, in 35 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: trying to stake his own claim in this controversy, Aristotle 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: makes the argument that the existence of empty space is 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: logically incoherent, and this leads to a harsh joke at 38 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: the expense of space itself. He writes, but even if 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: we consider it on its own merits, the so called 40 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: vacuum will be found to be really vacuous. Ah, that 41 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: might be funny or in ancient Greek. I'm not sure. 42 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: So I think we'll come back specifically to the history 43 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: of horror vacui in physics in a subsequent part in 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: this series. But I thought this was a good place 45 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: to start because a lot of people seem to trace 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: this general idea back to Aristotle, and they often identify 47 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: him as sort of the grandfather of this tradition of 48 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: being intolerant of empty space or of the very idea 49 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: of emptiness. 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and just the whole idea that nature abhors a 51 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: vacuum like it's You could also kind of translate it as, hey, 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 1: anytime there's a place where stuff isn't but stuff could be, well, 53 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: guess where you're can eventually find stuff right there, and 54 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: you know you could. You can apply that to economics, 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: you can apply it to evolution because for the most part, 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: like various interpretations of that hold very true. 57 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course there are tons of examples in 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: physics where you can identify this sort of phenomenonomy. If, 59 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: for example, entropy particle entropy. If you take a rectangular 60 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: container and half of it is filled with gas and 61 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: the other half has no gas in it. If you 62 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: just like let it go on its own and do 63 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: nothing to it, eventually the gas will even out in 64 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: distribution and fill the entire container. That something about nature 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: seems to reject that that arbitrary starting point of division 66 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: and tends to just have everything spread out even out. 67 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: It doesn't want to let that emptiness remain. 68 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, or on the other end of the spectrum, if 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: you have an empty drawer or cabinet in your kitchen, 70 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: see how long that lasts. Because eventually, eventually something's going 71 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: to come along and it's going to be the perfect 72 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: place to stick it. 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: Right. But one big place where horror vakui has been 74 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: recognized throughout the years is in the world. 75 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: Of art, that's right. Yeah, And in this we get 76 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: into we have this softer treatment of the vacuum of 77 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: empty spaces and also a lot of i think ultimately 78 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: discussions or arguments over what constitutes an empty space and 79 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: so forth. But yeah, within the worlds of art and design, 80 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: horror vacuie basically comes down to a tendency to fill 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: blank spaces instead of leaving them empty. I've also seen 82 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: it argued as a kind of maximal as opposing minimalism. 83 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: So you know, it's like like I'm gonna I'm gonna 84 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: create this painting or you know, think of it. I 85 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: guess from a like like a street art graffiti kind 86 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: of standpoint. What am I going to paint on this wall? 87 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: And how much of this wall am I going to paint? Well, 88 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to paint all of it, and I'm going 89 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: to fill it with with just so many things? Or 90 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: are you is it going to be mostly sort of 91 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: a blank canvas drawing your attention to the one I 92 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: don't know songbird that you've created at the middle of 93 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: this street canvas. 94 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 95 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: Now, for my own part, and I imagine everyone out 96 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: there has some version of this, But for my own part, 97 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: my mind quickly goes to a few different handy examples. 98 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: Some of my favorite artists do seem to abhor the 99 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: vacuum on some level. For instance, I've long been a 100 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: fan of the dark surrealism of Irving Norman, and his 101 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: work tended to consist of very complex, crowded, dynamic expanses 102 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: that had a lot of like urban and industrial energy 103 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: to them, And so it has a lot of chaos, 104 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: It has a lot of soullessness, and a lot of 105 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: it is about sort of capturing the spirit as he 106 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: saw it of the modern world. 107 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting that the connection to modernity, because I 108 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: think a lot of people over the years have made 109 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: this argument that something about how culture changes over time, 110 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: maybe a lot of this is driven by technology, results 111 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: in the constant sort of ingress of stuff into more 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: and more previously unfilled spaces of your attentional life. So 113 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: whereas life used to, at least according to this argument, 114 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: involve a lot more kind of boredom and idleness and 115 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: sort of sitting around with your own thoughts, not having 116 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: anything to do, and things like that, now there's just 117 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: like always something to occupy you and occupy your attention. 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and his works in particular, they do have this 119 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: feeling too them the one I included for you to 120 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: look at here, and certainly listeners can look this piece 121 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: up as well. This is war and Peace. It's a triptych. 122 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: And this is the piece that I've gotten to see 123 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: in person that was on display in San Francisco at 124 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: least for a while. Big piece, and a piece like 125 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: this is great to see in person as well because 126 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: you get to sort of get a little closer and 127 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: check out some of the many details that make it up. 128 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: For instance, one of the pieces here, you see all 129 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: these buildings in it, like a surrealistic view of skyscrapers, 130 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: in each little window has somebody inside with like some 131 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: sort of pained or horrific or bored expression on their face. 132 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, he really seems to fill every available space 133 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: with some sort of detail. Now, there are plenty of 134 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: older artists that come to mind, you know, pre modern 135 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: artist like Hieronymous Bosch comes to mind, Peter Brugle the Elder. 136 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: Another contemporary example that I instantly think of would be 137 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: the visionary art of Alex Gray, you know, very psychedelic, 138 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: but also just filled with flow and color, and there's 139 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: just this sense of every available space has been sort 140 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: of engulfed by energies that cannot normally be viewed with 141 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: the naked eye. 142 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, now you raise Hieronymous Bosh, and that really got 143 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: my gears cranking, because when it comes to horror, Vacui 144 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: and Bosh. I could be wrong, but I sense a 145 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: trend in his religious paintings where there's an association of 146 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 2: busyness with bad things, with chaos and sin, whereas empty 147 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 2: space seems to be more associated with order and godliness 148 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: and righteousness. So Hell is bustling and full and just 149 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: teeming with activity, whereas Heaven, or maybe the garden at 150 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: Eden before the Fall, is orderly and clean and has 151 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: plenty of empty space, plenty of floor space. One example, 152 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: of course, I think of here is the triptych The 153 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 2: Last Judgment, where if you see, you know, the Garden 154 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: of Eden, apparently a time before sin, there's just a 155 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: lot of kind of empty ground. There's like not a 156 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: lot going on. There's there's plenty of expanses that have 157 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: yet to be filled with anything. And also if you 158 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: look at the middle panel of the triptych, there is 159 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: war and chaos and suffering and disease and violence and 160 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: stuff taking place down on Earth, and it's a very 161 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: busy scene. But up above you see Christ and the 162 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: angels and everything's very clean, and there's like not a 163 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: whole lot going on. There's a lot of empty space 164 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: up in the sky. 165 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great point. 166 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: So in a way I wonder if that's kind of 167 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: an inverse horror vacuee, where you know that like the 168 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 2: the vakue is actually the indicator of goodness and orderliness, 169 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: and you know, when there's too much stuff going on, 170 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: that's a sign that something has gone wrong, that order 171 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 2: has broken down. But clearly this is not a universal 172 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: association within art or even within religious art. For example, 173 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: Dante's Paradiso seems to be anything but empty. You know, 174 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: the heavens in that vision are crammed with overwhelming, incomprehensibly 175 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: busy stimuli. There's you know, a lot of things where 176 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: He's just like, there was so much I couldn't understand 177 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: what I was looking at. And in some versions of 178 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 2: gnosticism also the sort of ultimate ideal plane of reality 179 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: and the sum of all divine potential is called the pleroma, 180 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: which in Greek means fullness, the opposite of emptiness or void. 181 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: Your example of here from the last judgment, this made 182 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: me think about okay, and at least in the middle 183 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: part of it, you're talking about, you know, here we 184 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: have a Christ appearing in the sky and everything's a 185 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: little more open, and we see the blue and ultimately 186 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: the white of naked sky there. And I was comparing 187 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: this to some other words that I'll mention in a second, 188 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: but it made me wonder like, when is the sky 189 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: full and when is the sky empty? Because it seems 190 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: like on some level, a blue or white sky of 191 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: painting is certainly a different animal compared to say, a 192 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: red sky, in the same way that the standard wall 193 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: color for a museum is usually, at least today not 194 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: black or red, but a nice white or a muted gray. 195 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, like a night sky is 196 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily like the darkness of space is not necessarily 197 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: understood to be full, but I guess it could be 198 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: depending on how you look in it's certainly full of. 199 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 2: Stars, yeah, and specifically, I mean the skies are, Yeah, 200 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: they're rendered in very different ways. I mean sometimes the 201 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 2: stars themselves are very busy, I think of I guess 202 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: this is obvious to go to. But the starry night. 203 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And as far as Dante goes, I instantly 204 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: thought back to Gustav Doreys later much later illustrations of 205 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: the Divine Comedy, And sometimes those do and sometimes they 206 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: don't match up with this general idea. Like there's one 207 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: particularly famous image from Dore's illustrations where we see see 208 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: Dante and his guy who's his guide in Paradiso. 209 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 2: It's in the Paradiso, it's it's Beatrice. 210 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: Yes, Beatrice, Yes, that's right. So it's it's Dante and Beatrice, 211 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: and here in front of them is just this incomprehensible uh. 212 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: And it's almost like the eye of Sauron with with 213 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: just multitudes of swirling angelic beings all around it. 214 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're looking into just a tunnel made of 215 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 2: like nanotechnology, except it's it's all angel wings. 216 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then there's another one of Dore's illustrations where 217 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: we see Dante and be standing here on a cloud 218 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: and we see multiple rings of angels, and certainly there 219 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: are a lot of angels in each ring, but there's 220 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: a lot more open space, particularly above them, and there's 221 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: an openness to that image that you don't see in 222 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the Dore illustrations of any of the 223 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: three realms of the Divine Comedy. 224 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: Agreed, And so that that division seems to be a 225 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: you know, whether you want to represent beauty and holiness 226 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: as a kind of incredibly busy phenomenon or as something 227 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: with a lot of empty space in it. I don't 228 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 2: see an overwhelming trend one way or the other. I mean, 229 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: it seems like a sort of a pretty evenly divided 230 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: issue of preference, because I think of tons of paintings 231 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 2: from all throughout history and all throughout different cultures where 232 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: empty space is clearly the thing that makes the painting 233 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: so beautiful or the art so beautiful. One that came 234 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: to my mind while we were getting ready for this 235 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: episode was there's a Chinese work of art from I 236 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 2: think the thirteenth century called on a Mountain Path in 237 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: Spring by Ma Yuan. Do you know that one? 238 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: Rob, I have just pulled it up in front of me. Oh, yeah, 239 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: this is beautiful. I'm not familiar with this space. 240 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I really like about it, so to 241 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 2: try to describe it, It shows like a man on a 242 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 2: path and there are sort of like some trees drooping 243 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: over around him, and there's a bird in flight up 244 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: ahead of him, and you see the the ridges of 245 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: some mountains in the background in one half of the painting. 246 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: But one thing I really love about this painting is 247 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: that essentially only half of it is filled in. So 248 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: behind the man you see the outlines of all these forms. 249 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: There are tree trunks, and there's the path. You see 250 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: little you know, ridges and indentations in the ground and 251 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: tree roots and shrubs, and you see the mountains in 252 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: the background, and then in the other half of the painting, 253 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: essentially all the forms just disappear and it's almost entirely 254 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: empty space except for a little suggestion of the path 255 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: continuing along on the ground and a bird. 256 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: H Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful piece, you know. And 257 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: I also want to mention that many of the artists 258 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: that one might point to and say, Okay, this is 259 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: someone who definitely abhors the vacuum. They're definitely a maximalist. 260 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: You can also find plenty of examples where they play 261 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: with opening things up a little bit. Like even just 262 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: looking back through some of Irving Norman's works, like there 263 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: are some pieces where have fairly sizable expanses of say sky, 264 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: sometimes blue sky, other times extremely blood red skies, but 265 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:08,479 Speaker 1: sky nonetheless. 266 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I don't know what this is. So my ruined, 267 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: vulgar mind looks at one of these paintings, the one 268 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: with the red sky, and I just think hell razor two. 269 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it, it is a hellish image. It 270 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: does have some of those vibes to it, for sure. 271 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: I think it's that the red sky and then the 272 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: sort of like maze of walls beneath that. 273 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this one is called war Wounded Ends. That's 274 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: another one of my favorite pieces by Irving Norman. 275 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: It is beautiful. I apologize for the Barker comparison. 276 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: No, no, no, I mean I think it's apt. I 277 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: mentioned the walls of a museum earlier because I think 278 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: this is also key as well, because when you think 279 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: of gallery walls and even picture frames in a modern sense, 280 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: we tend to think of a very minimalist features. Right. 281 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: The trend nowadays at least, is, of course, the display 282 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: works of art in unassuming frames on largely blank walls, 283 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: with at least some amount of space between each work, 284 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: sort to allow each work a little room to breathe. 285 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: But this was of course not always the fashion, and 286 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: isn't always the fashion. Maximalist and minimalist approaches are just 287 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: trends and ensure that the complex wallpaper may be pulled 288 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: away in the geometric wall to wall carpeting may be 289 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: ripped up from space, but given enough time, these things 290 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: may come back into fashion again and you'll get even 291 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: crazier wallpaper plastered back up and even more complex carpet 292 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: installed Wallda wall. But there are some interesting properties involved, 293 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: like what does it do when you have something worth 294 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: looking at in the midst of white space? You know, 295 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: what does emptiness? What does the void do? And there's 296 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: an offsded quote from art historian Ernst Gombrich who of 297 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: nineteen oh nine through two thousand and one, in which 298 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: he stated, quote, the richer the elements of the frame, 299 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: the more the center will gain in dignity. I believe 300 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: this is a part of his theory of perception, and 301 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty insightful statement, and we can 302 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: apply it to the blank walls behind a canvas, to 303 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: the unassuming picture frame, or even elements within a given 304 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: work where the busy aspects of a piece focus our 305 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: attention towards something more open, like for instance, Christ floating 306 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: in the sky above said this otherwise chaotic scene and 307 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: a painting by Bosh. 308 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 2: Oh, that's kind of interesting. So that might explain the 309 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: popularity of these very ornate, highly textured you know, frames 310 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: around paintings with all these ridges and swirls and so forth. 311 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and certainly you will often encounter, even in modern 312 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: museums sometimes these older pieces that are still in very 313 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: ornate frames, And I'm always interested in that because, I 314 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: guess because it kind of throws me for a curve 315 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: comparing it to more modern works and modern framing. And 316 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: then you'll encounter this piece that have some sort of 317 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: a picture frame that I mean could arguably be seen 318 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: as distracting from the piece itself, but maybe not maybe 319 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: guiding you in now. As far as the term horror 320 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: evacue goes, depending on tastes and trends, you'll see it 321 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: in the art world, sometimes invoked as praise, other times 322 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: invoked as criticism. Take the often busy art of Jackson 323 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: Pollock of nineteen twelve through nineteen fifty six. It's kind 324 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: of a prime example of this duality. Even though not 325 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: all of his works abhor the vacuum, You'll you'll find 326 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: a little space in some of his pieces, and I 327 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: think maybe those are the ones that I may be 328 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: a little more drawn to. 329 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 2: Oh, but you mean that like critics had described it 330 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: in terms of horror vakue, both positively and negatively, like 331 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: this is good because it sates my horror vakuy, or 332 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: this is bad because it's just a product of horror vacuy. 333 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I think in the case of Pollock, 334 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: and people are more familiar with art criticism out there 335 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: than they can chime in on this. But it seems 336 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: like you see it invoked more as a criticism, you know, 337 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: almost like, well, this clearly this artist is afraid of 338 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: the vacuum. Otherwise they would have given us a little 339 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: more space. But I don't know, even the really busy 340 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 1: Jackson Pollock pieces, which I think I have also had 341 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: the chance to see in person, Some of these pieces, 342 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: like they're really neat to see in person, because you 343 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: do get it's a similar situation. You can take it 344 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: all in, but you can step a little closer and 345 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: sort of look at just some of the closer details, 346 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: and it's really enthralling. 347 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 2: Now. 348 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: The term has also been used to describe cultural artistic traditions. 349 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: I've seen it used to describe the work of the 350 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians, as well as the trend in Islamic art 351 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: towards the expansive use of geometric patterns. Apparently, however, the 352 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: originator of the term in art criticism itself was Italian 353 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: born art and literature critic Mario Praz who lived eighteen 354 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: ninety six through nineteen eighty two, who used it mostly 355 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: to slam the cluttered visual interior design one sees particularly 356 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: in Victorian households. Victorian design. Joe I included a sort 357 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: of stereotypical image of a rich Victorian sitting room here, 358 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: and I think it raises the question is this too 359 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: busy or is this just comfy? Is this like hoarded 360 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: fancy items or is this somebody who wanted to surround 361 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: themselves with the things they like and sort of warm 362 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 1: themselves in the glow of those things. 363 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: So the critical idea here could be, yeah, like is 364 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 2: there too much patterned wallpaper, too much patterned upholstery on 365 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 2: the furniture, too many little doodads all over the place. 366 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: It's just the room is too busy. You should live 367 00:20:59,680 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: in a. 368 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I guess one of the things that really 369 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: comes out in thinking about in terms of art is, 370 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: of course art criticism is generally highly subjective, and so 371 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: also is the use of a term like horror of 372 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 1: vacalie in terms of art and design or any kind 373 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: of creative endeavor, and in film is not immune to this. 374 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: I was really excited by this because I was looking 375 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: around for I don't think I was even particularly looking 376 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: for something about film, but I ran across discussion of 377 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: horror vacalie and Jallo films. Yes, Fangoria Magazines, Alexandra Heller 378 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: Nicholas has written film criticism discussing the subject of horror, 379 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: vacualie and Jallo films. The book in question, which I 380 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: haven't had time to read in full yet, but for 381 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: whatever read so far, is quite good. It's the Jallo 382 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: canvas art excess and horror cinema. 383 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: SHALLO is absolutely a genre of SSS, and that is 384 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: part of what makes it so enticing. Is it's just 385 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 2: unrestrained expressiveness and gaudiness. 386 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's this of course, largely we're dealing 387 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: with the Tagan cinema here, though, though its influence becomes 388 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: such that it spills out into European cinema in general 389 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: and also has a big influence on the global slasher genre. 390 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's generally stylish to some degree, gratuitous, you know, 391 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: it's flashy and so. Helen Nicholas here points out that naturally, 392 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: how EVACUI doesn't just apply to high brow art. She 393 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: cites the illustrations of Robert Crumb as an example, and 394 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: then points to a couple of other horror cinema examples, 395 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: possible examples such as Texas Chainsaw Massacre, particulars the original 396 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: Texas Chainsaw Massacre particularly. I believe she was pointing out 397 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: these some of these early scenes where we're not even 398 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: getting into the blood and the excess, but just like 399 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: scenes where the inside of the Chainsaw Massacre household is 400 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: just cluttered with all sorts of of you know, uncanny 401 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: items like skulls and bird bones and knick knacks. And 402 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: she also points to some other examples where there's like 403 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: just where it's a similar situation where a lot of 404 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: disturbing stuff sort of thrown at you so fast, and 405 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: you don't general rule in horror, you know, don't show 406 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: the monster too long, don't show the gore effect too long, 407 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: and it can kind of overpower you like, overpowers the 408 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: circuits with unease or revulsion. But to read a quick 409 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: quote here quote in Jallo cinema, while certainly not lacking 410 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: in moments of excessive blood and guts, excessive nudity, etc. 411 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: It is also just as much frequently marked by an 412 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 1: excess of style through color, music, mes on sin, and 413 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: even performance styles. These films too, are marked by a 414 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: sense of too much, an excess. We can loosely align 415 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: with this tradition of horror Vakali. 416 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: That is an excellent description of Jallo and what makes 417 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: it so special that the core stylistic feature of it 418 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 2: is too muchness. It's just a lot in every possible way. 419 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know about you, but even just 420 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: thinking about this made me think of various stills from 421 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven Suspiria by Adario Argento, where there's just 422 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of too muchness in the film, even 423 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: the shots that are not bloody shots. There are several 424 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: really bloody shots that are just overpowering the senses. But 425 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: also other scenes that have like a Mario Bava hyper 426 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: color realm sensibility to it, or just like a lot 427 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: of a lot of lines and shapes thrown at you. 428 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of interior designs wall I don't know 429 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: if it's wallpaper, but painted walls with busy designs, you know, 430 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: just fixtures and artworks and just stuff everywhere. It is 431 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: not a minimalist looking film. Yeah. 432 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of film, I also and looking at all this, 433 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think of movie posters as well, 434 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: sort of the difference between it in an exciting, packed, 435 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: maximalist a movie poster versus the minimalist movie poster, which 436 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: was certainly a design trend not too long ago, maybe 437 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: in the last ten years. And I guess there's still 438 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: a lot of it going on, maybe not at the 439 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: professional level, but sort of as a design exercise and 440 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: an art exercise among other folks. Yeah, Like you know, 441 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: I think of posters by American artist Drew Strusen, who 442 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: did poster art for Blade Runner, various Star Wars films, 443 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: also the nineteen seventy seven killer worm movie Squirm. These 444 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: are all three poster examples, and you can look these 445 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: up where there's just a lot packed into the image there. 446 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: They're beautiful and they seem to overflow with the energy 447 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: of those films, be it the drama, the sort of 448 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: neon intrigue of something like like Blade Runner, or just 449 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: the monstrous squirminess of Squirm. 450 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's a lot of actors' heads, so they're 451 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 2: trying to pack actual marketing information into the painting. You're 452 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 2: gonna see here are all the actors that you know 453 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: and love that are going to get you into the theater. 454 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 2: But also they're trying to give you some information about 455 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: the plot, so you will see like moments or scenes 456 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 2: from the movie in the poster. But then also, yeah, 457 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 2: like you say, they're trying to suggest the I don't know, 458 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: the kind of like throbbing energy of the movie. Like 459 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 2: the horror ones are going to have a kind of 460 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: a squirminess to them, you know, kind of like a 461 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 2: kind of queasy light coming off of them, whereas the 462 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: sci fi action movies have this glow as if from 463 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: stars in the background or something. 464 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and with something like squirm, they're not really any 465 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: big name actors in that you're not trying to market 466 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: it that way, so you pull back on the identifiable 467 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: faces and heads and you just focus on the squirminess 468 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: of the picture. 469 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: Now, I really did enjoy a lot of those recent 470 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: redesigns of classic movie posters, but in minimalist form. Though, 471 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: I think that works a lot better for movies that 472 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 2: people already know and love than it does for movies 473 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 2: that nobody's ever seen before. Like when you're advertising a 474 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: movie and you're trying to like catch people's eye and 475 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: make them see it, that seems like when you really 476 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: do actually want to try to cram a bunch of 477 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 2: stuff into the poster to like cast a lot of 478 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 2: lines essentially like oh do you like this actor? Their 479 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: face is on there somewhere. 480 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Like I was looking around for minimal examples of 481 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: all three of these films that I just mentioned. I 482 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: found that, you know, there are a lot of them 483 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: that have been created for Blade Runner in the Star 484 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: Wars films. But I found an episode three poster for 485 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: Star Wars and they did the smart thing of basically 486 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: invoking the shape of Darth Vader's head like that. That's 487 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: an easy one. You can go super minimal on that 488 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: because it's a very identifiable character outline. 489 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: Yes, totally. I really like this one for Blade Runner 490 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: that is just a yellow background with a black sort 491 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 2: of minimalist geometric rendering of the Origami unicorn. 492 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's more of I think, maybe on the cute 493 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: level where it's like, oh, okay, I see what they 494 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: were going for. Oh yeah, that's right, that's from the movie. 495 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: A little detail and kind of a wink to folks 496 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: who remember it. But I also found surprisingly, and I 497 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: got this off of the Telltale mind dot com, they 498 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: have a blog post there where it's squirm nineteen seventy six. 499 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: Sorry I may have gotten the year wrong, and squirm there, 500 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: but squirm nineteen seventy six. The visuals where they have 501 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of promotional visuals from the film, and 502 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: a lot of it's very squirmy. There was one one 503 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: particular international poster, one sheet or lobby card here this 504 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: just absolutely loaded with worm images. But then there is 505 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: strangely a single one that that has just the words 506 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: squirm with kind of an interesting font. I guess that 507 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: looks like maybe it was written by a worm that 508 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: had been dipped in ink and it just says squirm the. 509 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: Monstros seventy six incursive. 510 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, in worm cursive, I guess, like I say, I 511 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: think a worm maybe is supposed to have made that ass. 512 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: So I don't know. All of this is subjective again, 513 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: but it does make you think about, you know, what 514 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: the difference is between cranking it up and pulling back 515 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: on it, and certainly when it comes to the use 516 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: of empty spaces or perceived empty spaces and visual design. Now, 517 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: I also think it's very interesting to think about this 518 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: concept in so called visionary art and psychedelic art and 519 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: also psychedelic cinema, because you think of either of these 520 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: categories and you often think of busyness. While the psychedelic 521 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 1: experience itself, of course, is going to vary greatly. There 522 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: is often a description of images and ideas filling the 523 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: blank or the empty. Things that don't have meaning take 524 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: on heightened meaning. Surfaces crawl, move and breathe, And from 525 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: an AI perspective, I suppose the now sort of out 526 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: of fashion a r I don't hear as much about it. 527 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: A Google deep dream kind of created a version of 528 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: this with with its tendency to find dog faces and everything. 529 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: So any given image, any even like a blank background, 530 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: would suddenly become faintly alive with intertwined cute dog faces. 531 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you take a picture of a lawnmower and 532 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: the you know, the starter button is a pug's face, 533 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: and the and the and the wheels all become a 534 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: little golden retriever as it's cute. 535 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it makes me think too about just the 536 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: human tendency to define patterns and to fill emptiness with 537 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: meaning and things. Even in the case of deprivation, you know, 538 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: some sort of sense deprivation scenario or some sort of 539 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: isolation scenario. The mind eventually starts finding details where they 540 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: are not details, you know, sometimes to harmful degrees. And 541 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: there are a lot of treatments of this too in 542 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: various papers I was running across. You know, you get 543 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: into whole discussions of, say, marketing, how do you fill 544 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: your show window at a fancy fashion store, a clothing store. 545 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: Do you just fill it up with the various items 546 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: you're selling? And you certainly see this approach in some 547 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: shop store windows. Or do you have like that one 548 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: piece and in lots of blank space, open space, or 549 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: maybe you know a few splashes of color. You know, 550 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: there are arguments to be made for both sides. There 551 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: are also very specific arguments about what kind of clientele 552 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: are being attracted to this store window versus another. 553 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and that's interesting because it brings us to 554 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: I would say that there is a fairly consistent threat 555 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: of class association with maximalist versus minimalist design, which is 556 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: that minimalist designs are more often associated with wealth. 557 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one classic example of that is, of course, 558 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: the upscale dinner plate versus the I don't know, the 559 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: comfort food dinner plate, the comfort food dinner plate, say, 560 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: filled from an all you can eat buffet generally is 561 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: a pretty pretty loaded dish. There's not a lot of 562 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: white space remaining on that dish. Meanwhile, what do you 563 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: think of when you think of true upscale dining? What 564 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: do you think of when you think of, say, the 565 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: recent film The Menu, which is you know, very much 566 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: a send up in parody of the high dining experience 567 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: in the business and culture surrounding it. You think of 568 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of empty plate, and like maybe like 569 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: a few piles or puddings or some sort of very 570 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,719 Speaker 1: interesting plating of the dish that doesn't take up too 571 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: much much real estate. 572 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you will see a lot of plate. 573 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: This also made me think about something that anybody out 574 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: there has, any dealings with newspaper pagination or i guess 575 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: design in general, any kind of like design and layout, 576 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: and that is the subject of not only white space, 577 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 1: but trapped white space. For those of you unaware that 578 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: the general rule has long been when it comes to 579 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: a newspaper page, there doesn't have to be an endless 580 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: cascade of text and images taking up every space on 581 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: the page. You can have some white space in there, 582 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, give your features and your images and your 583 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,959 Speaker 1: text a little room to breathe. But while you can 584 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: have white space, you do not want to have trapped 585 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: white space. So you can think of it this way, 586 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: like your text and your images, this is all of 587 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: one continent or island, and it's okay to have inlets 588 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: and harbors that have white in them that accessible to 589 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: the outer void, But you don't want lakes and pools 590 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: of trapped white space within the piece. And you know, 591 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: I think it's tempting from either side, if you're inside 592 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: the world of pagination and design or outside of it, 593 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: to on some level wonder, well, this is really makes sense, 594 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: or this's just a standard, This is just this is 595 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: just what they have told us to do. This is 596 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: just the style. But I think there is a pretty 597 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: strong argument to be made that the thing is spaces 598 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: draw our attention. Spaces can be used effectively if they're 599 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: used on purpose. They can be used to sort of 600 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: heighten the message of other things in the visual design. 601 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: But if you include them sort of slap dash, if 602 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: you include them by accident, then all you're doing is 603 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: drawing the eyes away from important content or content that 604 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: you want to be seen is important towards just absolute 605 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: nothing that has no you know, you're not heightening anything. 606 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: You're just drawing eyes away from what they should be 607 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: looking at. 608 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: By point of comparison, I would say that rests moments 609 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 2: of silence are used on purpose in music to heighten 610 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 2: the effect of what is there. You know, rests are 611 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 2: one of the most important things in making music good. 612 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 2: But you would not want blank space inserted haphazardly without 613 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: that kind of intention. In the middle of a song 614 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 2: might be okay, between songs on a record, you wouldn't 615 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 2: want it just going in between verses there. Oh, let's 616 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: just have a break for a few seconds. 617 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, unless it's like the break if you're listening to 618 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: some drum and bass or something and you need you know, 619 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: everything reaches a point and then it stops. Then you 620 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen next. A massive change and 621 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: like high energy is going to occur. But that's meaningful 622 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: white space, like your attention. Yeah, that's a rest, so 623 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: I yeah, I totally understand. I think the same is 624 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: true for the design layout of a page in a 625 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: magazine or a newspaper. If you just have meaningless space 626 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: in between the contents that that kind of throws you off. 627 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: You're like, wait, why is that there? I imagine maybe 628 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: we can hear from from folks south in the restaurant world. 629 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are rules about this concerning the plating 630 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: of food too, because I bet you don't want to 631 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: have trapped white space on the plate in some form 632 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: or another, Like you don't want it to look like 633 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: something goes, something has been emitted from the plate, you know, 634 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: like well, where did the pork chop go? Like that's 635 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: the space, clearly where a pork chop could go. That's 636 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: the only interpretation my mind can make of it. 637 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: That's funny. I'm sure some pretentious chef has tried that 638 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: we just doughnut shaped platings of food. 639 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: So that's all. I mean. I feel like everything I 640 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: just said maybe kind of a ramble and covered a 641 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: go lot of ground. But I guess the the basic 642 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: take home from all of this is the vacuum, the 643 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: void and emptiness white space whatever however you're describing it 644 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: or or encountering it in especially in a visual sense, 645 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 1: like it has it has meaning one way or another, 646 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: Like it's not a completely neutral thing one could even, 647 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: I guess, get into the world of literature, right and 648 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: printed books. You know, what is the feeling of the 649 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: blank space at the end of a chapter, Between chapters 650 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: or it's often been discussed, writers will discuss like the 651 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: horror of the blank page when they can't think of 652 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: something to write, and so forth, like the horror of 653 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: that kind of void. 654 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 2: You know, I have a whole tangent that I want 655 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 2: to get into about horror vakue in cartography in map making, 656 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 2: which is very much related to fear of the void 657 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: in art, but raises some fresh issues of its own. 658 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 2: But looking at the time, I think we've got a 659 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 2: cap today's episode here, and so we will get into 660 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 2: that in the next episode in the series. 661 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: All right, so yes, join us for more discussions of 662 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: the void on the next episode of Stuff to Blow 663 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: Your Mind. A reminder that Tuesdays and Thursdays are the 664 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 1: days when we publish our core episodes of the show. 665 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: On Mondays we do listener mail, on Wednesdays we do 666 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact, and on Fridays 667 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: we do weird house Cinema. That's our time to set 668 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: aside most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film. 669 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you 670 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 671 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 672 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 673 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 674 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:27,240 Speaker 2: dot com. 675 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 676 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 677 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.