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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. California has been

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Speaker 1: leading the charge against Trump administration policies, suing the federal

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Speaker 1: government thirty eight times in the last year and a half,

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Speaker 1: and the man behind those lawsuits is California Attorney General

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Speaker 1: Javier Bassrah. He joins us in our New York studios.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here, General June. Great to

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Speaker 1: be with you. Okay, so let's start with what do

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Speaker 1: you see as California's role in your role during the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration where the policies are an antithesis to what

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Speaker 1: your state has put forth in years and June, it's

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Speaker 1: really not so much about Donald Trump, It's about California.

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Speaker 1: California is forty million people, where the economic engine for

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Speaker 1: the country we shoved great written over. We're now the

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Speaker 1: fifth largest economy in the world. We need to continue

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Speaker 1: to create good paying jobs to keep up where number

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Speaker 1: one an egg manufacturing clean energy entertainment, hospitality, graduates from college.

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Speaker 1: So for us, it's a matter of continuing that success.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who wants to get in the way then gets

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Speaker 1: in our cross hairs because we have to continue moving forward.

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Speaker 1: So it's not about Donald Trump. It's about California continuing

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Speaker 1: its forward leaning ways. But it is about Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: and his policies and his efforts to try to roll

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Speaker 1: back some regulations. You support, your support, Well, Peter, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do everything we can to continue our economic success

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Speaker 1: and to continue to keep our people healthy and to

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Speaker 1: keep our environment clean. And anytime someone tries to get

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Speaker 1: in the way, well we're gonna get We're gonna be there. Well,

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Speaker 1: you just tweeted about I'm sure you didn't do it yourself,

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Speaker 1: but your staff tweeted up a few minutes ago about

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Speaker 1: the um the latest plan of the Trump administration on

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Speaker 1: coal fired power plants. Tell us what you intend to

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Speaker 1: do about that, and uh, what your opinion is. We

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Speaker 1: are prepared to defend the standards that were in placed

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Speaker 1: under the Clean Power Plan in California. We have moved forward.

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Speaker 1: We're not interested in seeing thirty people die prematurely because

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Speaker 1: we're not willing to clean our error because we're we

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Speaker 1: use polluting energies, and so in California, we're going to

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Speaker 1: move forward. If the Trump administration tries to change that

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Speaker 1: and violates the law in the process, we will sue.

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Speaker 1: And there are a number of states who are ready

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Speaker 1: to do that. California will be among them. What other

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Speaker 1: issues are you watching in Washington that you could bring

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Speaker 1: a suit over? Wow, Well, we just had a great victory,

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Speaker 1: uh in the last week on the census. We are

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Speaker 1: suing the Trump administration, which is trying to deflate the

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Speaker 1: participation by people in the census for California. Anytime someone

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Speaker 1: doesn't get counted, that's a taxpayer dollar that we sent

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Speaker 1: to the federal treasury that may never come back to California.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna suit and make sure there's an accurate account.

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Speaker 1: And the Trump administration has been undermining and your account.

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Speaker 1: So we're suing the Trump administration there. We are ready

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Speaker 1: to go to court if the Trump administration tries to

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Speaker 1: change the the clean car standards that we haven't placed nationally,

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Speaker 1: which California has led on and so we're prepared to

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Speaker 1: sue on that. And certainly we have been in the

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Speaker 1: fight to make sure that children, regardless of their status,

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Speaker 1: are treated like children and they're not separated traumatically from

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Speaker 1: their parents. So we've been involved in a number of things.

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Speaker 1: We just recently had a victory a couple of months

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Speaker 1: ago against the Trump administration when Attorney General Jeff Sessions

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Speaker 1: sued California trying to change some of our laws. Federal

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Speaker 1: courts sided with California. As far as you've filed so

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Speaker 1: many environmental lawsuits and the e p A has lost

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Speaker 1: three cases in just eight days over trying to roll

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Speaker 1: back Obama era regulations. Are you on solid legal ground

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Speaker 1: with most of your suits or are some of them iffy?

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Speaker 1: Not most of them, all of them? Um. The reason

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Speaker 1: we've had such uh dramatic set of victories against the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration, especially on the environment, is because the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration continues to violate its own laws. And we're here

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Speaker 1: to make it clear the rule of law applies to everyone.

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Speaker 1: No one, including the guy in the White House, is

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Speaker 1: above the law. Uh. Your colleague in the government who

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Speaker 1: is the Clean Air Regulator, um, Mary nichols Is does

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Speaker 1: seem to be trying to negotiate with the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: on these emission emission standards. Um, do you support that

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Speaker 1: as they're compromised there somewhere absolutely. Uh. In every effort

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Speaker 1: that we've undertaken that has ultimately led to a lawsuit

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Speaker 1: against the Trump administration, we have reached out to the

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Speaker 1: federal government. It is not fun to have to sue

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Speaker 1: the federal government. It's a it's a big beast, and UH,

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Speaker 1: it's not easy to win. But we've been able to

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Speaker 1: succeed because, as I said before, the Trump administration continues

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Speaker 1: to break the rules. You can't change the rules by

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Speaker 1: breaking the rules. But we're ready to sit down and

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Speaker 1: talk at any point in time on any of these matters.

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Speaker 1: And are there talks underway on any of these matters

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Speaker 1: like the emissions standards. We've we've held ourselves open to

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Speaker 1: continue those conversations. They've not been fruitful because the federal

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Speaker 1: government has not been willing to really talk in ways

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Speaker 1: that are meaningful about what we do on clean car standards.

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Speaker 1: But I believe it's been clear from the beginning that

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Speaker 1: the governor Governor Brown Mary Nichols are ahead of our

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Speaker 1: Air Resources Board and and I have been willing to

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Speaker 1: sit down with the Trump administration to come up with

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Speaker 1: a resolution. You were one of the first states to

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Speaker 1: sue over Trump's travel ban. The Supreme Court eventually upheld

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Speaker 1: that travel ban. What do you see if Brett Kavanaugh,

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court nominee, is approved by the Senate, what

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Speaker 1: do you see as his role? So I think it's

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Speaker 1: important remember it took the Trump administration three times before

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Speaker 1: they can get a court to agree with them that

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Speaker 1: what they were trying to do in discriminating against people

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Speaker 1: based on religion or origin ethnic origin, could pass muster.

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Speaker 1: I still think that the Court came out with a

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Speaker 1: flawed decision, but be that as it may. The Court spoke,

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Speaker 1: We'll move forward and we'll continue to contest where we

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Speaker 1: can to try to protect people's rights. I think what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing is that the Trump administration will push the

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Speaker 1: envelope in ways that it knows probably violate the law.

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Speaker 1: And what we're going to just simply do is approach

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Speaker 1: them and say you shouldn't do that, just like you

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Speaker 1: tell your child don't touch the candy you haven't had dinner.

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Speaker 1: Do you worry about Kavanaugh getting on the court and

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Speaker 1: end up setting the balance that Anthony Kennedy gave Listen,

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Speaker 1: if there's a robust process in the Senate to uh

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Speaker 1: here about the nomination of Judge just As Kavanaugh to

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Speaker 1: go to the Supreme Court. I think we'll end up

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Speaker 1: with a good process if if there's a if they

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Speaker 1: stop us from having the information we need, then get ready.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Attorney General Javier B. Sarah, thanks for

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Speaker 1: visiting us in New York from California. I'm sure the

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Speaker 1: weather is nicer. The jury and the trial of former

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort is in its fourth day

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Speaker 1: of deliberations. Leaving the courthouse yesterday, defense attorney Kevin Downing

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Speaker 1: said Manafort was pleased that the jury would continuous deliberations

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Speaker 1: into a fourth day. Mr Manafort is very happy to

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Speaker 1: hear that, and uh he thinks it was a very

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Speaker 1: good day. As long as the jury keeps deliberating, the

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Speaker 1: defendant has hope, of course, although the jury sound of

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Speaker 1: question today that might change that. Joining me as former

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Speaker 1: federal prosecutor Seth Waxman, a partner at Dickinson Wright, Seth

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Speaker 1: in the first question from the jury since day one,

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Speaker 1: they asked, your honor, if we cannot come to a

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Speaker 1: consensus on a single count, how should we fill in

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Speaker 1: the jury verdict form and what does it mean for

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Speaker 1: the final verdict and they asked for a fresh verdict sheet.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on that seth? Yeah, I mean the

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Speaker 1: take on many people that are in the courtroom and

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Speaker 1: mind is that there may be at least a verdict

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Speaker 1: on more one or more accounts. It should obviously be

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Speaker 1: a very big step in the right direction for the prosecution.

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Speaker 1: And the judge told them to go back and deliberate.

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Speaker 1: If they come back again and say we just can't

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Speaker 1: reach a verdict on this count, is he likely to

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Speaker 1: clare a mistrial on that count and throw it out. Well,

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Speaker 1: So a judge will go through a process, maybe giving

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Speaker 1: two or three opportunities telling the jury to continue their deliberations.

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Speaker 1: It would be after two or three notes like that

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Speaker 1: and the judge telling them to continue the deliberations, and

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Speaker 1: if they still came back hung at that point, then

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Speaker 1: there'd be a mistrial. But this is the first indication

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Speaker 1: of a hung jury. If they were to come back

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Speaker 1: at least on one or more counts, they were to

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Speaker 1: come back with yet another note saying they're hung, my

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Speaker 1: bet is that the judge would send them back at

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Speaker 1: least one more time to continue their deliberations, and it

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Speaker 1: would be sometime after that that a mistrial would potentially

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Speaker 1: be in play. So seth um, let's let's look at

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Speaker 1: the some of the other things that have been going

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Speaker 1: on in this case. Um. The judge has had several

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Speaker 1: private conferences with prosecutors and defense lawyers about the jury,

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Speaker 1: including a two hour meeting on August tenth, which delayed

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Speaker 1: the jury trial, after which he delivered a stern warning

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Speaker 1: to jurors about not discussing the case with each other

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Speaker 1: or outsiders. What do you make of that, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: not atypical that a juror may go off and look

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Speaker 1: at the newspapers or speak to someone outside the jury

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Speaker 1: pool to discuss the matter. Obviously that was be in

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Speaker 1: violation of the judge's orders, and so the judge is

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Speaker 1: just reconfirming his position that, you know, jurors need to

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Speaker 1: stay away from outside sources of information and wait to

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Speaker 1: deliberate until they have the entire case. Obviously, the note

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Speaker 1: we're getting today may subsume all of that. If in fact,

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Speaker 1: the jury has reached a verdict on one or more counts.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that will the jury? Um? Find

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Speaker 1: him innocent guilty what well, So, my that is is

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Speaker 1: that if if the in fact have been verdicts reached

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Speaker 1: on one or more counts, that those would be guilty verdicts. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It seems very difficult to believe that all twelve jurors,

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Speaker 1: based on the evidence that was presented, would agree that

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Speaker 1: on acquittal. So the extent there are verdicts that have

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Speaker 1: in fact been reached, Uh, my suspicion is is that

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Speaker 1: those would be guilty verdicts. Now that maybe one count

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Speaker 1: as opposed to or or seventeen counts, we just don't know.

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Speaker 1: Said they want to turn for a moment to George Papadopoulos,

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Speaker 1: And this sort of has been in all the rest

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Speaker 1: of the news. We haven't really focused that much on it.

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Speaker 1: But on Friday the government filed of sentencing memorandum and

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Speaker 1: according to prosecutors, they said he his lack of cooperation

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Speaker 1: justified a prison term. What is your What do you

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Speaker 1: think the impact of that is on people looking at

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Speaker 1: that or on other witnesses. Well, so that sends a

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Speaker 1: message to other potential cooperators that the extent you don't

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Speaker 1: play ball with the government, in other words, be truthful

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Speaker 1: at all times. That the will pull that plea agreement

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Speaker 1: and essentially find a violation and recommend to a judge

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Speaker 1: that they face a prison term. So that's a serious consequence.

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Speaker 1: And cooperators when they sign up with the government are

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Speaker 1: very clear through the defense lawyers and the government that

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Speaker 1: they have to be truthful and that is really the

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Speaker 1: number one requirement of every cooperator. A wild card in

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Speaker 1: all of this in our last minute is presidential pardons.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the president? Yeah, that that is

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Speaker 1: that is truly the wild card. I don't think myself

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Speaker 1: or any other former prosecutor or defense layer really knows

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Speaker 1: how that will play if in fact Mr Trump were

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Speaker 1: to do something like that. Um, there's a very strong

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Speaker 1: argument that issuing a pardon to someone like Paul Manafort,

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Speaker 1: especially if it were after conviction, would be tantamount to

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Speaker 1: obstruction of justice. But you know, we've never as a

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Speaker 1: country gone down this path where a president has in

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Speaker 1: theory a personal stake as it relates to a pending

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Speaker 1: criminal matter. If Mr Manafort does in fact have incriminating

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Speaker 1: evidence as against against Mr Trump, so you know, how

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Speaker 1: that plays out may will be taken up an impeachment

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Speaker 1: proceedings Seth, we've run out of time. We don't have

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Speaker 1: time to talk about the other wild card, which is

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Speaker 1: Michael Cohen and his alleged negotiation with prosecutors for a deal.

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Speaker 1: Please come back again. That's fromer federal prosecutor Seth Waxman.

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Speaker 1: He's a partner at Dickinson Right. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

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Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg dot

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Speaker 1: com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg