1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Hey, girlfriends, it's Anna. Welcome to Bonus. Episode three. You're 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: going to hear a lot of discussion about the prison 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: and justice system, which probably won't be a surprise if 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: you've made it this far into the series. There's also 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: going to be references to domestic violence, as well as 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: other tough subjects like sexual abuse and addiction. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: But it's also a. 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: Really vital conversation about what we can all do to 9 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: change the system for the better. In the last episode, 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: I introduced you to a woman we called Tina. Following 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: a lifetime of abuse from family and others, one night, 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: she violently attacked her boyfriend, nearly killing him. It was 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: fueled by a drug induced psychosis, but there's no doubt 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: that Tina did it. 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: She admitted it right away. 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: She got sixteen years, but only served seven and a 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: half after receiving clemency from the governor. Clearly, at some 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: point it was understood that locking her behind bars for 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: any longer didn't serve anyone. 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: At the end of the. 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: Episode, I asked the question, what is the actual best 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: recourse for someone like Tina? How can we reconcile between 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: her crimes and her experience as a victim, and if 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: the current justice system isn't serving women like her, what 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: is the best solution. All the way through making Jail 26 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: House Lawyer, I kept asking myself that same question and 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: panicking because I wasn't coming up with an answer. 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: So I called up Lee good Mark. 29 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: She's the author of a book called Imperfect Victims, Criminalized Survivors, 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: and the Promise of Abolition Feminism. This conversation profoundly changed 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: the way I think about the prison system. And today 32 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to let you evesdrop on that call. I'm 33 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: Anna Sinfield and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts, 34 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: this is the Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer. 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: Is that bonus? 36 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Episode three is abolition? The answer? So tell me about 37 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: that journey that you took in order to get to 38 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: writing in Perfect Victims. 39 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: I came out of law school in nineteen ninety four 40 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: and knew that I wanted to work with children. Very 41 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: quickly learned that children had families, and then equally as 42 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: quickly learned that no one in Washington, d c. Which 43 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 3: is where I was a legal services lawyer, was systematically 44 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: providing legal services to women. And at that time, we 45 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: really only talked about women who had experienced intimate partner violence. 46 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 3: And at that time when I came out, we had 47 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 3: been taught that the way that you dealt with intimate 48 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 3: partner violence was to lock people up. That these guys, 49 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 3: and at the time we were only talking about guys, 50 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 3: and we were generally only talking about straight relationships, were monsters, 51 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: that they couldn't be helped, and that the criminal legal 52 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 3: system was the best way to address this problem. That 53 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: the problem had been that we had failed to look 54 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: at intimate partner violence as a crime like any other crime, 55 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: and the solution was to do exactly that. The more 56 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: I practiced, the more clients I had, the more I 57 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: came to understand that the legal system, in particularly the 58 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: criminal legal system, was not a good option for many 59 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: of them. And what the research was telling me was 60 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: lots of people never come into the criminal legal system. 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: About half of people never call anyone about the violence 62 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: that they're experiencing. Now, when people do come into the system, 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: what they learn is that the system actually doesn't stop 64 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 3: the violence. It might stop it in the moment right 65 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 3: in the separation of the two people, but it doesn't 66 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: change the underlying correlates and behaviors. That are leading to 67 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 3: the violence in the first place. About eleven years ago, 68 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 3: I came to the University of Maryland Carrie School of Law, 69 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: where I started representing criminalized survivors for the first time. 70 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: So, just for a kind of a basic definition, what 71 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: is a criminalized survivor as you'd see it, and who 72 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: would qualify as one. 73 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 3: A criminalized survivor is someone whose criminal conviction is directly 74 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 3: tied to their own experience of victimization. So in the 75 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: classic case, that looks like a person who's been subjected 76 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 3: to abuse who fights back against their abusive partner, maybe 77 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: kills their abusive partner think Farah Faucet in the Arning 78 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: bed back in the eighties. But it can also look 79 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: some different ways as well. So it can be somebody 80 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 3: who acted under the duress of an abusive partner, who 81 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: would not have been involved in a crime but for 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 3: being forced by an abusive partner, or somebody who happens 83 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 3: to be present when an abusive partner commits a crime 84 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: and finds them self criminalized as a result of things 85 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: like felony murder laws who told everyone who is involved 86 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: in any felony responsible for a death that occurs during 87 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: the commission of that felony, it can look like being 88 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 3: held responsible for someone else's actions. In other contexts as well, 89 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 3: we have clients who have been convicted of failing to 90 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 3: protect their children from their abusive partners. And then it 91 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: can also look like people who are self medicating, who 92 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: are using drugs or other illicit substances, and who are 93 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: doing things to support their drug habit and who end 94 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: up incarcerated as a result of that. And because almost 95 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: every woman, and frankly most people I've ever met who 96 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: are incarcerated have experienced some form of trauma or some 97 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 3: form of gender based harm, one could argue that the 98 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 3: vast majority of particularly women, who are in prison are 99 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 3: criminalized survivors. I had written about criminalized survivors. I had 100 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 3: been involved in the margins of people's clemency campaigns, but 101 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: I hadn't really done the work. When I started doing 102 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: the work, something for me just snapped into place. This 103 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: was the work that I was meant to be doing, 104 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: and it brought me face to face with the carceral system, 105 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: with the prison system in a way that I had 106 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: never been before. I was now going into the prison 107 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: on a regular basis, and then I was looking at 108 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 3: what prison was doing to these people that I cared 109 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: about so deeply, and that's when I kind of made 110 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 3: a real shift for me. I'm going into prisons. I'm thinking, 111 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 3: this can't be a way to make people less violent. 112 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 3: Prison doesn't make people less violent. Prison exacerbates all the 113 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: things that tend to make people use violence. And then 114 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 3: I think, for me, like a lot of white people, 115 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: twenty twenty was a real time of reckoning to make 116 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: us see that the system wasn't going to change because 117 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: the system was doing exactly what it was meant to do, 118 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: and that this was not a system that you could reform. 119 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: And so between seeing how the system reacted to the 120 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: murder of George Floyd and some of the abolitionist literature 121 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: that was being published at that time, most notably for me, 122 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 3: Mariamkaba's We Do This Till We Free Us, I came 123 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: to see that I didn't think this system was ever 124 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: going to do the work that we were saying that 125 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 3: it could do back in nineteen ninety four, and then 126 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: in fact, it was an impediment to stopping violence. And 127 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 3: that's when I started to identify as an abolitionist. My 128 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: Twitter formerly twitterisse my Blue Sky handle. My Blue Sky 129 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: handle now is recovering carceral feminist. Ask me how some 130 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: people see carceral feminism as an insult. I just see 131 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: it as a descriptor. A carceral feminist is somebody who 132 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: believes in using the police power of the state to 133 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: change people's behavior. And that was me in nineteen ninety 134 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 3: four and for some years thereafter. It certainly not me now, 135 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 3: And I think it's important to talk about that arc 136 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 3: because people are so afraid to admit that they've made 137 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 3: mistakes or that they've seen differently. And I know better 138 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: now having been face to face with the carceral system 139 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 3: for the last eleven years. 140 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: Wow, amazing, I mean, yeah, I think that could be 141 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: a bit of an arc for this feed of you know, 142 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: it's brought into the Castle system and this series. I 143 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: hope it's going to be as kind of exploring that 144 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: it's actually more complicated than that idea of bad guy 145 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: goes away and everything solved. Yeah. 146 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: I was listening to the first season and I was 147 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 3: yelling at the at the radio. 148 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm enjoying. I liked the idea of you yelling at 149 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: the radio at the work that idea. I think that's great. 150 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: I too want to be, you know, a former castle feminist. 151 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: If that's what it takes, I can wear that loudly 152 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: and loudly the stuff that you're talking about in your journey. 153 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: It makes so much sense for you. But I think 154 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: for a lot of people getting to the point of 155 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: being an abolitionist, there's so many hurdles before that. 156 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 3: What I would say is that it's worth asking ourselves 157 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: why is it that we think people need to be incarcerated. 158 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: What is it that we think incarceration is doing. If 159 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: we think that it's to incapacitate people because they're likely 160 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 3: to do harm, we should ask ourselves, are there ways 161 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 3: to remedy the harm that these people have already experienced, 162 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: to deal with the trauma that's leading them to act 163 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: in ways that may cause harm to others, rather than 164 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: just locking them up in places where they will absolutely 165 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: have trauma inflicted upon them, where they are likely to 166 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 3: be the victims of further physical or sexual trauma, and 167 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: where nobody is giving them any kind of counseling or 168 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 3: support to mitigate the effects of that trauma, so that 169 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: when they are released into society, they're not likely to 170 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: do it again. If we think that punishment is about 171 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: to terrence, do we really think that continuing to pile 172 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: on to people who've already experienced so much harm is 173 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: going to deter the person whose fight or flight response 174 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 3: is triggered in that moment? Is that a real possibility 175 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 3: that someone who gets triggered like that stops and goes. 176 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: But wait, I might get criminally punished. I should stop 177 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 3: right now. All the research shows us that deterrence is 178 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 3: not actually deterring anybody. And so if you think about 179 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 3: the theories of punishment, the reasons why we punish people, 180 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: none of them holds up particularly well. In the case 181 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 3: of criminalized survivors. We don't believe prisons are rehabilitating anybody. 182 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 3: We know they're not doing that kind of work. And 183 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 3: so really the only justification for punishment that holds water 184 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: is retribution. And I don't want to live in that 185 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 3: kind of society. That's part of what gets me to 186 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 3: abolition is I don't need to have my just deserts 187 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 3: against people who've already experienced so much harm coming into 188 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: the system. 189 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 1: So what do you do if someone's just coming it's 190 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: a really serious, potentially lethal crime. 191 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: The thing about abolition is that, first and foremost, abolition 192 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 3: has to be about building. We don't live in a 193 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: society right now where we have the what do we 194 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: do next? Answer, and that keeps a lot of people 195 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 3: from being able to say, well, then I can espouse abolition. 196 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: I feel comfortable with that. And so we don't know 197 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 3: that yet. I don't have to have that answer yet 198 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: because we don't know. We don't know what the scope 199 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 3: of the problem is going to be unless and until 200 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: we do the kind of investment that is necessary to 201 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: build to get us to a place where abolition can 202 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 3: be a reality. That means ensuring that everybody has physical 203 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: health care and mental health care, and safe places to 204 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 3: live and enough to eat, and green spaces and all 205 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: of the things that we want people to have to thrive. 206 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: And then when they're not coming in with all of 207 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 3: this trauma, with all of this abuse, we know what 208 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 3: the problem looks like, and then we can make a 209 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: determination about what we do with someone who does serious harm. 210 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: At the very least, right now, we could be making 211 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: calculations about whether we think people are genuinely a risk 212 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 3: to others, or whether they've acted in a situation in 213 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 3: which they felt trapped or felt like they had no 214 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: other alternative. We could have more robust self defense law. 215 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 3: There are lots and lots of things we could do 216 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 3: short of abolition, to deal with a lot of the 217 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: harm that we're seeing. But I can't give you the 218 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: answer to what it looks like on the other side 219 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 3: because I don't even know what the scope of the 220 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 3: problem is going to be. 221 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: And thought about it that way of abolition being it's 222 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: more of a belief system that this just isn't working. 223 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: And a process because it translates directly into policy. So 224 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: rather than continuing to put roughly one hundred and eighty 225 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 3: billion dollars into policing and prisons every year, imagine what 226 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: would happen if we put one hundred and eighty billion 227 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: dollars into safe and affordable housing, and mental health services 228 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: and physical health services and all of the things that 229 00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 3: people actually need. 230 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: I guess people are just so hungry for solution because 231 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: it feels like a solution to put people away in 232 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: a cage. You know, it's doing something, it's taking them 233 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: away from society, you know, and. 234 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 3: It's scary not to have a solution. The thing is, 235 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: we let the criminal system fail every single day. It 236 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 3: fails over and over and over again. People continue to 237 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: get hurt in that system. People come out of that 238 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: system deeply damaged. People come out of that system economically disadvantaged, 239 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 3: which is a driver of violence. People come out of 240 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 3: that system further traumatized, another driver of violence. And we're 241 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: okay with letting it fail over and over and over 242 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 3: because it's the system that we have, and because we 243 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 3: can't see anything else. 244 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: When it comes to the survivors that kind of get 245 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: caught in between. One thing I'm kind of wandering and 246 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: grappling with when it comes to how to put them 247 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: across to my listeners, is like, what should they make 248 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: of them? 249 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: How do we describe these people? 250 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: So often my clients are people who have something happen 251 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 3: in a split second that changes their lives irrevocably, that 252 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 3: they didn't intend to have happen, and that they never 253 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: would have rationally sat there and thought this is a 254 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: good course of action. That's not true of everyone. I 255 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: have a spectrum of clients. I have clients who I 256 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: genuinely believe are innocent, who have done nothing wrong and 257 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: have been wrongfully convicted. I have clients who've done things 258 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: that are technically criminal, like failing to protect their children 259 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: from their abuser's harm, but who didn't do anything to anyone. Similarly, 260 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: clients who've been convicted of felony murder who never killed anyone. 261 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: I have clients who've done something really wrong but for reasons. 262 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 3: And then I have clients who just did really bad 263 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 3: stuff and who now are remorseful about it, who've atoned 264 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: for it, who really want to. 265 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: Have the opportunity to go back into society. 266 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: And that's a pretty wide spectrum of people. 267 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: Something that I thought was interesting in your book, or 268 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: at least it charmed with me because of working with 269 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: Kelly over the past few months, was this idea of 270 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: an imperfect victim. There's obviously a lot of variables to that, 271 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: but there was one particular section that was about just 272 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: victims not behaving victimy enough. 273 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: We want victims to be weak and meek and passive. 274 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: We want them to be white and straight and middle 275 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: class and cisgender and able bodied. We want them never 276 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: to use substances that are illegal. We want them not 277 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: to have mental health issues. We want them never to 278 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 3: use foul language. And even if you do manage to 279 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: stay on that very, very narrow path, you might still 280 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 3: do something that leads a prosecutor or someone else to 281 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: suggest that you're not a perfect victim. You do sex work, 282 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: you're boisterous, you do all these things that make people say, well, 283 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: that's not how a victim acts. And the reality is 284 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 3: there isn't a way that a victim acts. They are stereotypes. 285 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: And for women of color, all of this is exponentially worse, 286 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: particularly for black women. All of the stereotypes about black women, 287 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: the angry, loud black woman fight against this idea of 288 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: the perfect victim. It makes it very very hard for 289 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: anybody to be legible as a victim at all, let 290 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 3: alone once they've been charged with a crime. And once 291 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: you've been charged with a crime, it's like a switch 292 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: flips for prosecutors and police and judges, because every case 293 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: has a victim and an offender, and if you're the offender, 294 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: you can't possibly be a victim. And of course, what 295 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 3: we know is that most people have been both at 296 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: some point in their lives. That very few people come 297 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: to use violence for the first time as perpetrators of violence. 298 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 3: Most people come to violence for the first time as 299 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: victims of violence. It changes fundamentally how you look at 300 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 3: the world when your belief systems are challenged by what 301 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 3: actually is in a prison. Just so people understand, my 302 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: clients aren't getting mental health services in prison. The vast 303 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 3: majority of women in prison have some kind of mental 304 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 3: health issue. People are getting some drugs, not always the 305 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: drugs that they need, but they're certainly not getting therapy, 306 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 3: at least not my clients. They're not getting access to 307 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: any kinds of supportive services that would change what that 308 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 3: looks like if and when they're released. And I think 309 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 3: you have to ask yourself, is this really justice? 310 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: In your book, I know that you break it down 311 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: via survivors interaction with the legal system, and I was 312 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: wondering if you could kind of explain why you did that, 313 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: and also like why things like arrests are particularly bad. 314 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,239 Speaker 3: I wanted people to understand how victims come to get 315 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: enmeshed in the system and then what it looks like 316 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 3: as victims move their way through the system. So some 317 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 3: people come in when they are victims of crimes, right 318 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 3: they call the police and the police say, Nope, not 319 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: going to arrest him. But I am going to arrest 320 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 3: you because you mouthed off to me, because he has 321 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: defensive injuries. For whatever reason. People come into the system 322 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: as witnesses to crimes, and then obviously people come in 323 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 3: as defendants. One of the big drivers in the context 324 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 3: of intimate partner violence for bringing survivors into the system 325 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: has been mandatory arrest laws. Mandatory arrest laws require police 326 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 3: to make an arrest in a case of intimate partner 327 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 3: violence whenever they have probable cause to do so, regardless 328 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 3: of what the people who are involved in it want. 329 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 3: So if they want to press charges, they don't want 330 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: to press charges, doesn't matter. After the inception of mandatory 331 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 3: arrest laws, arrest rates not surprisingly went up, and they 332 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 3: went up for one group of people more than anyone else, 333 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 3: and that was women, not because women had all of 334 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: the sudden become more violent, but because of the way 335 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 3: that police were implementing the laws. So it's what the 336 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 3: criminologist Metachesney Lynn calls the vengeful equity story, kind of 337 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 3: you want to be treated equally, You want us to 338 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 3: treat intimate partner violence equally. Well, look, this is what 339 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: it's going to look like. We're just going to arrest 340 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: you and those arrests happen because police can't figure out 341 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: who the primary aggressor is. You also see dual arrests 342 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 3: where police say, well should you say this, and he 343 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 3: says that I don't know who did what. I'm taking 344 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 3: you both in. We'll let the court sort it out. 345 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 3: And arrest has really profound implications for survivors of violence, 346 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: both in terms of the trauma that it inflicts and 347 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: the idea that after enduring a tremendous amount of abuse, 348 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 3: all of the sudden you've been labeled somebody who uses violence. 349 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 3: That's psychically really damaging. Also costly, so there's the cost 350 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 3: of bail, there's the cost of lawyers. There's electronic monitoring costs. 351 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: If you're let out, but you're monitor at that costs, 352 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 3: Your arrest can show up in the public record. It 353 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: can be a reason why you lose your job, you 354 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 3: lose your apartment, you lose custody. It can be a 355 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: reason why your kids are taken into what some of 356 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 3: us call the family policing system and other people call 357 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 3: the child welfare system. So the knock on effects of 358 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 3: arrest are really quite serious. And as I said, once 359 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 3: a victim is arrested, for a crime, it's as though 360 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: that history of victimization is just wiped out as far 361 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 3: as prosecutors are concerned, because in order to make a 362 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 3: decision about charging, what prosecutors are doing is they're making 363 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 3: kind of a case theory. They're seeing the world in 364 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: a particular way, and they're bending the facts. I'm not 365 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 3: suggesting this is nefarious in some way, but they are 366 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 3: using the facts to support their view of the world. 367 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 3: And once you've committed to that case theory as a prosecutor, 368 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: it's really hard to be shaken from it. So once 369 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 3: you've decided this wasn't self defense. In fact, she was 370 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 3: acting aggressively, she was angry, she wasn't afraid, she was jealous, 371 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: it's hard to come off of that narrative. And because 372 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 3: prosecutors have so much power in the system, once a 373 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: prosecutor has decided to charge you, there's a whole host 374 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 3: of things that happen that you have very little control over. 375 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: Prosecutors decide about whether they're going to oppose bail, they 376 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 3: decide who the witnesses are going to be, they decide 377 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 3: what you're going to be charged with, and in that 378 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 3: charging decision can actually dictate what the punishment will be 379 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 3: if what they decide to charge you with is something 380 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 3: with a long mandatory minimum sentence. So prosecutors have enormous 381 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 3: amounts of power in the system and a commitment to 382 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 3: getting prosecutions, to getting convictions. And so while the job 383 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 3: of the prosecutor is supposed to be to do justice, 384 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 3: and while many prosecut believe that they are doing justice, 385 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 3: they also are concerned about their conviction rates. They're concerned 386 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 3: about their elections, they're concerned about being able to say 387 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: to the public, we're tough on crime because we're sold 388 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: this narrative that says crime is out of control, when 389 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 3: in fact, crime is lower than it has been in decades. 390 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: But prosecutors are married to that narrative. 391 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: Well, there's so much in that that I found amazing 392 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: reading in your book the first time round, especially the 393 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: mandatory arrest rule. 394 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: I get it. 395 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: I like follow the arc, like I can see how 396 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: when you first hear about that, it sounds like a 397 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: sensible solution, but it feels like the perfect way of 398 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: exposing how the system is broken. That gets introduced with 399 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: all of this good will, but then actually, because of 400 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: so much inherent bias women still end up suffering the 401 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: most because of it. 402 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: I feel like one of the things that we and 403 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 3: I say we advisedly. I am very much part of 404 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 3: the anti violence movement, one of the things we as 405 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 3: a movement haven't done well is to stop and think 406 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: about what the unintended or just the consequences of our 407 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 3: choices might be. Their arrest rates immediately went up for 408 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 3: women they've stayed high. 409 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: I was thinking about the arrest portion of what you 410 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: spoke about in your book and thinking about applying it 411 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: to Kelly. Things really started to look bad for her 412 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: quite quickly when she was first arrested. 413 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 2: Of course this is what. 414 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: She says, but she was treated like really poorly, to 415 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: the extent of like she started menstruating and they stripped 416 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: her and made her wear a white suit and didn't 417 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: give her any sanitary products. She really needed medication that 418 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: they wouldn't give her, which included a huge methodone dose 419 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: that she was on, as well as seizure medications which 420 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: she says that they withheld from her until she gave 421 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: a written statement, so she had seizures. 422 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 2: It seems like. 423 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: The treatment that she experience there was just kind of 424 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: absolutely abhorrent. From what I read, it seems that's not 425 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: totally unusual. But does that chime as true to you? 426 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 3: None of that surprises me even a little bit. Yeah, 427 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 3: all of that rings completely true to me. 428 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 429 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I've struggled to 430 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: understand a little bit is that the police had a witness, 431 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: though later on it seems the witness were kind of 432 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: confused and was very far away and maybe didn't see 433 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: all that much. But at the time, all the information 434 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: they had was that they saw Tommy committing the crime, 435 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: but also saw Kelly kick this man. 436 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: But it makes it messy. 437 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 3: So remember I said spectrum of cases, right, Yeah. Is 438 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 3: it possible that Kelly did nothing? Absolutely? Is it possible 439 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: that what the witness saw was Kelly pushing Tommy to 440 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 3: try to get him off of this person, and that 441 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 3: looked like kicking. 442 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: Yes. 443 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 3: Is it possible that Tommy said to Kelly kick him, 444 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 3: and Kelly thought he's going to kill me if I 445 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 3: don't kick him. Did Yep? All of those things are possible. 446 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 3: Is it also possible that Kelly's memory is affected by trauma? Certainly? 447 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 3: Is it possible that in that traumatic memory she's blocking 448 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 3: off the things that she doesn't want to remember. Absolutely, 449 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 3: trauma has that impact on memory. It is also possible 450 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 3: that she did a bad thing, not the thing that 451 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 3: killed the victim in this case, but a bad thing. Yeah, 452 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 3: it's possible. Does that change whether we think domestic violence 453 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 3: was a significant contributing factor to her crime and whether 454 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 3: the sentence was disproportionately harsh as a result. For me, 455 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 3: that doesn't change that. 456 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 457 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: I think what the sticking point for me is, you know, 458 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: in that particular instance with the kicking thing, It's not 459 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: that it changes anything for me because like, if she did, 460 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: it would have been done under duress from her abusive partner, 461 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: so whatever. It's more what bothers me is that my 462 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: job as a journalist, like there's certain rules on podcasts 463 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to how we put things across legally, 464 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: where I had to say stuff like Kelly says, and 465 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to say because it can't be substantiated 466 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: or proved or it goes against what is actually in 467 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: kind of legal documents that we have that fact check 468 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: as a lawyers are going to rely on. I can't 469 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: just say this is the truth, you know, and I 470 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: don't like not supporting a victim's narrative because that feels 471 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: icky to me. 472 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 3: I get that, and I just don't believe in truth. 473 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: You blow him my mind herely. 474 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 3: I just you know, we talk about trials as truth 475 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 3: finding expeditions, and judges as finders of fact or juries 476 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 3: as finders of fact. It's just finding one version of 477 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 3: the facts. But there's no objective truth that's out there 478 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 3: that we're going to capture that gives us the three 479 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 3: hundred and sixty degree view of whatever it was that happened. 480 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 3: I think it's hard because you're telling a story, and 481 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 3: you know, one of the things that we want out 482 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 3: of our narratives is we want them to be clean 483 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 3: and linear and makes sense internally and externally, and right, 484 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: we know all the storytelling things. Life is not like that, 485 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: and recreating a chaotic and violent incident is really not 486 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 3: like that. Yeah, And I think that's hard for you. 487 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 3: For lawyers, it's actually a lot easier because we just 488 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: get to tell our version. But I know that I'm 489 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 3: making choices all the time about what I include and 490 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 3: what I exclude. Right, I'm not telling some unvarnished version 491 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: of the truth. I'm telling my particular story in a 492 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 3: persuasive way. So, yeah, my job's different than yours in 493 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 3: that way. 494 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to just have your perspective. 495 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 3: I might get you into trouble as a journalist. 496 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. This is the annoying thing. I'm on the 497 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: wrong side. 498 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 2: Though. 499 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't making me think hearing you say that. It's 500 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: it sounds like there's so many kind of well worn 501 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: parts of the legal system that you just don't kind 502 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: of buy into. 503 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: You but you're still part of it. Yeah, how do 504 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 3: you cope with that? So I'm still part of it 505 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 3: because I have a set of skills that enables me 506 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 3: to do a couple of things. One is to get 507 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 3: people out of prison. A second is to give students 508 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 3: a healthy perspective on the legal system. We have sold 509 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: this vision of a system that is infallible. 510 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: That is, just. 511 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 3: Because we've sold that vision, we allow that system to 512 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 3: do a lot of harm. We have to be more 513 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 3: thoughtful about what we say about that system. We have 514 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 3: to make every actor in that system recognize how profound 515 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 3: the responsibility is to make it work as justly as 516 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 3: it possibly can. Laws and exercise of power, both in 517 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: the laws that get passed and in the laws as 518 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: they're enforced. So somebody's got to be there to counter 519 00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: that power. 520 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well be me, I guess. I mean, I'd rather 521 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: it be you, for sure. 522 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could just talk to me 523 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: about the prison system generally. I heard from your book 524 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: it's like the statistics just seem crazy about the numbers 525 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: of people in past rated and we'll just talk about 526 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: the United States obviously, like what has caused that growth? 527 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: Why is there like a benefit to somebody? Can you 528 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: talk to us about that sort of system as a whole. 529 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 3: You see the jump start to happen in the nineteen 530 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 3: seventies and into the nineteen eighties. The war on drugs 531 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: is a significant driver of a lot of this, but 532 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 3: also so tough on crime rhetoric. The nineteen ninety four 533 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: Crime Bill ratchets things up, and so that's when you 534 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 3: start to see this huge jump in the prison population, 535 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 3: but not just the prison population, the jail population, that 536 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 3: detained populations, kind of everybody. And you know who benefits. 537 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 3: Prosecutors benefit because they can say they're tough on crime, 538 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 3: and judges and courthouses benefit because we need more of them. 539 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: And certainly correctional officers benefit because we need more of them, 540 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 3: and small towns benefit because we build more jails and 541 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: prisons to put people in. And anytime that you build 542 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: a jail or a prison, you're gonna fill it. You 543 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 3: got to fill it. 544 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I've had a few people talk to me 545 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: about how the prison system is for profit. But is 546 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: that just the private prison thing. 547 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 3: People point a lot to the kind of private prison 548 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 3: system as creating the capitalist motive for increasing mass incarceration. 549 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: That's true to us some extent, but not much, very 550 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: very small part of the prison population is actually in 551 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: private prisons. It's also about the ways that prisons create 552 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 3: economic wealth in a community that becomes a significant part 553 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: of your economy. In Maryland, which is where I am, 554 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 3: the Maryland Correctional Enterprises shops makes furniture for public institutions. 555 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: My desk that I am sitting at was made by 556 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: an incarcerated person. If I wanted to try to not 557 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 3: use products by incarcerated people, I think I could touch 558 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 3: my carpet in my office, but I'm pretty clear that 559 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 3: I couldn't touch anything else. Wow, it's pretty profound. Do 560 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 3: they get paid at all? 561 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: The pay is. 562 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: Almost nothing, and the commissary costs are much much much 563 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 3: higher than you would pay for similar kinds of products 564 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,239 Speaker 3: on the outside, and so you earn less, but you 565 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: have to pay more for the same products. 566 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the point in that? 567 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 3: Why the pain, the indignity, the harshness, that's the point. 568 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 3: We can say everything we want to say about prison, 569 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,479 Speaker 3: but at the end of the day, we are a 570 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 3: deeply attributive society. We think that people deserve to experience 571 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: pain once they've been convicted of a crime, regardless of 572 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 3: where they fall on my spectrum of all of my clients, 573 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 3: and the pain is the point. 574 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's disgusting. 575 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: That's what I'll get you to abolition. You know, the 576 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 3: point of incarceration is not supposed to be the loss 577 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 3: of dignity, the loss of health care, the loss of safety, 578 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 3: the loss of human connection, the loss of your family. 579 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 3: It's supposed to be the loss of your freedom for 580 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 3: a period of time that ensures the safety of the community. 581 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 3: But it's become all these other things, and once you 582 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 3: start to see all of these other things, you can't 583 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: unsee them. 584 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: We were talking about the fact that you were listening 585 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 1: to the first series and you were like screaming at 586 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: the radio certain bits from where we kind of were 587 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: really endorsing some parts of the legal system and keeping 588 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: in this case, Bob behind bars. That's actually kind of like, 589 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, a peek into the production room. That was 590 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: something that me and the editor had a really hard 591 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: time deciding to do and include, because. 592 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: We both quite liberal. 593 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: People, and so we were never of the mind that 594 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: somebody who's been in prison that long should necessarily stay there. 595 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: But the problem was was this wasn't really my story. 596 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: It was the story of these. 597 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: Women who had been victimized by this guy, and especially 598 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: the story of Elaine, who has worked incredibly hard to 599 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: make sure. 600 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: That Bob stays behind bars. 601 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: And it just didn't feel right to try and impose 602 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: my own belief systems onto something that felt so significant 603 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: for them. Yeah, but it's something They're still friends of mine, 604 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: and I keep up with them, and Elaine is still 605 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: fiercely fighting to keep Bob behind bars, and I'm kind 606 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: of nervous about her hearing this series and feeling like 607 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: I'm no longer endorsing some thing that's so important to her. 608 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: You know, what do you say to someone like that? 609 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: I completely understand having heard a lot of Elane, why 610 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 3: she feels the way that she feels, and he's I mean, look, 611 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 3: I'm not a psychologist, but he's a sociobab. You know 612 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 3: there's something deeply like I get that, and I don't 613 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 3: know what I would tell her about. Okay, so what 614 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 3: do we do with him? 615 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 2: Then? 616 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 3: Like, I don't know the answer to that yet. So 617 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 3: I get that impulse that says, you know, this is 618 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 3: someone who hurt a lot of women and would have 619 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 3: hurt a lot of amorse, and I we can't take 620 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 3: that chance. I don't endorse that, but I understand that 621 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 3: people do. And so one of the things that I'm 622 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 3: kind of careful to do in the book is to say, 623 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 3: it took me twenty eight years to get to abolition. 624 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: It's not where I started. I don't expect people to 625 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 3: get there overnight, particularly people who've had people that they 626 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 3: love harmed so grievously. So we have to give people 627 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 3: things that they can do along the way way so 628 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 3: that if they're not at abolition, they can say I 629 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 3: can't see this yet. I can't see the end of prison, 630 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 3: but I can see getting rid of mandatory arrest. I 631 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 3: can see getting rid of mandatory minimum sentences. I can 632 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 3: see getting rid of cash bail. I can see involving 633 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 3: communities in defense of survivors. I can see doing the 634 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 3: preventative work that we need to do to make sure 635 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 3: that people have the things that they need. I can 636 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 3: see supporting geriatric parole for people who have simply aged 637 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 3: out of crime. I can see supporting compassionate release so 638 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 3: that people don't die in there. There are all kinds 639 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 3: of things that people can get on board for that 640 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 3: don't require them to say, but this one guy who 641 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 3: killed my sister, he should get out. And I understand 642 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 3: that I've actually had this conversation with my family to say, 643 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 3: if anything ever happened to me, I would not want this. 644 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 3: You need to know that I would not want this. 645 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 3: But would I blame them if they wanted it. 646 00:35:59,080 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: No. 647 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 3: Part of that is about the way in which we've 648 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 3: defined justice. We have told people that when you have 649 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 3: been harmed, the way that you get justice is if 650 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 3: someone else is incarcerated. We haven't offered people anything else. 651 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 3: We particularly haven't offered them anything else in the context 652 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 3: of intimate partner violence. So if people want justice, then 653 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 3: what they know to want is punishment, and unless and 654 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 3: until we can offer people something different, we can't expect 655 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 3: them not to want that. 656 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: That's very profound. I don't think I'd had it put 657 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: so plainly before. It's so gross that that is our 658 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: idea of what justice is that it has to be 659 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: linked to somebody suffering. It's very eye for an eye, 660 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: it is. I mean, that was going to be one 661 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: of my final questions. Is you know, obviously you're right 662 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: in the thick of it, but most of the people 663 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: who are listening to this show a normal people. What 664 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: is it that normal people can do to help with 665 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: the building? 666 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 3: Normal people, normal people, whoever they are, whoever they are, 667 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 3: people should know what's being done in their names. Go 668 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 3: into a prison, see what's being done with your tax dollars. 669 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 3: Think about whether that's something that you're comfortable with if 670 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 3: you're not, think about supporting efforts like defund the police 671 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 3: that got so maligned. Think about whether you want to 672 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 3: offer a volunteer program in a prison that makes up 673 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 3: for some of the deficits that exist. There's so many 674 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 3: different entry points for people who are interested in dismantling 675 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 3: this system. You can find something that speaks to you, 676 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 3: so find what that thing is and do it. 677 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 2: Make a podcast. 678 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 3: Make a podcast. What you are doing this season is 679 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 3: turning some of what you've put out there on its 680 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 3: ear in ways that I think is really important. And 681 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 3: I do think you're getting to an audience that I 682 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 3: would never get to. So it's important the journalists are 683 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 3: pushing on these narratives, and you know, not just for petite, 684 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 3: cute white women, but for women who tell fabulous tales 685 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 3: and who maybe use language in ways that we're not 686 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 3: one hundred percent comfortable with. 687 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 4: But that's how Kelly talks, right, Yeah, Kelly is not 688 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 4: a perfect victim, right, she very much fits and getting 689 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 4: that message out to people and letting them know that's 690 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 4: really important. 691 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 3: So I think podcasts are really important in this space. 692 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, thank god. 693 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that I tried so hard to treat 694 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: victims who were just pure victims with grace, and then 695 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: now I'm learning that I'm meeting a lot of victims 696 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: who are the exact same, but they ended up stepping 697 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: onto the other side of doing something criminal. I need 698 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: to find a way to try and persuade myself and 699 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: the listeners to treat them with the same empathy that 700 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: they've treated Gael or hid from the first two series. 701 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, people who've done harm and people who've been harmed, 702 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 3: they're the same people. We treat it as though it's 703 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 3: a binary, but it's not. 704 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: It's like the boris, isn't it it's eating its own tail. 705 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,720 Speaker 3: It is exactly, or the ven diagram where the circles 706 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 3: are completely overlapping. 707 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, this has been like one of the best chats 708 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: I've done for this whole series. Thank you so much, 709 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: Thank you, and I hope it becomes a series that 710 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: you don't have to scream at the radio for. 711 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 3: But if I do, I have an email address now 712 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 3: and I can just email you and tell you when 713 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 3: I'm doing it. 714 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Thanks Sally good Mark for keeping me on 715 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: the right track. Next week, in our final installment of 716 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: The Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer Bonus episodes, I'll be popping on 717 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: my bucket hat and rolling up my jeans because The 718 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:46,959 Speaker 1: Girlfriends is heading to its very first festival, Wilderness in Oxfordshire, UK, where, 719 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: in front of a live audience, I'll be talking to 720 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: the prolific true crime writer Kate summer Scale about her 721 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,439 Speaker 1: book peep Show and how the role of true crime 722 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: reporting has changed over time and crucial what we're both 723 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: doing to try and make it better. 724 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 2: Catch you then, The. 725 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. 726 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: For more from novel, visit novel dot Audio. The show 727 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Annasinfield and is written and produced 728 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: by me and Lee Meyer, with additional production from Jako 729 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: Taivich and Michael Jinno. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. 730 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: The editors are Georgia Moody and me Annasinfield. Production management 731 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: from Shari Houston, Joe Savage, and Charlotte Wolfe. 732 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 2: Our fact checker is Daniel Suleiman. 733 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. 734 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: Music supervision by me alis Infield, Lee Meyer and Nicholas Alexander. 735 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein. 736 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: Story development by Nell Gray Andrews and Willard Foxton. Creative 737 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: director of Novel, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan are executive 738 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: producers for Novel, and Katrina Norvell and Nicki Eator are 739 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 1: the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts, and the marketing lead 740 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: is Alison Cantor. Thanks also to Carrie Lieberman and the 741 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: whole team at WME.