Speaker 1: All right, so great. When are illegal drugs good for
Speaker 1: your mental health? I guess it depends on the drugs.
Speaker 1: Suicide rates among military personnel and veterans are climbing to
Speaker 1: new highs in post nine to eleven conflicts. A study
Speaker 1: found that four times as many US service members and
Speaker 1: veterans have died by suicide than have been killed in combat.
Speaker 1: I just have you know, the experiences rangers like what
Speaker 1: can what can touch me? You know, little by little,
Speaker 1: the trauma those ignoring started manifesting in my life in
Speaker 1: a lot of pretty bad ways. Alcoholism, impression, anxiety, engaging,
Speaker 1: and risky behavior. Is an urgent need for new alternative
Speaker 1: approaches to therapy, and significant promise has been shown with
Speaker 1: drugs as ancients as they are controversial. After a little while,
Speaker 1: almost hallucinated this hand just like stripping me out of
Speaker 1: that of the hell zone and immediately plopping me down
Speaker 1: into the serene sort of just like mound, And I
Speaker 1: was like, whoa what was that? That's and and the
Speaker 1: fact that you had a place you could go in
Speaker 1: your brain but you didn't know it was there, like
Speaker 1: that was and there there's a lot of places to Yeah,
Speaker 1: closed that door permanently. Yeah, I'm Greg Glad and this
Speaker 1: is the War on Drugs. Well, man, Greg, how you
Speaker 1: doing today? I'm great, Clay, And how are you doing?
Speaker 1: I'm great man. You know, we're gonna be doing something
Speaker 1: special for you know, this episode actually the next episode.
Speaker 1: Like we thought we were gonna do an episode on
Speaker 1: kind of mental health or on drugs, psychedelics their impacts,
Speaker 1: and we started just digging in and it just wasn't
Speaker 1: too big. Yeah, it can't fit, can't fit in the bag. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we need a bigger back. Yeah. Two yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So we're doing two parts kind of talking about you know,
Speaker 1: personal experiences with UM, you know, combat veterans and their
Speaker 1: experiences with PTSD, and you know, treatments like psychedelics with ayahuasca,
Speaker 1: you know the efficacy of these and how much better
Speaker 1: results you're getting, you know, without having you know, just
Speaker 1: being pumped with a bunch of pills that which is
Speaker 1: like our only way that we know how to treat
Speaker 1: you know, these types of mental mental health issues. So
Speaker 1: UM and then kind of getting more into the science
Speaker 1: of this, like why does it work? And then the
Speaker 1: impediments like why aren't we what's the problems with research,
Speaker 1: how do we do this? And you know, always goes
Speaker 1: back to just like this arbitrary enforcement of certain substances
Speaker 1: over others and why um and so I'm super super
Speaker 1: excited to dive into all this. Yeah, me too. I
Speaker 1: see why we had to split it into two. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot to talk about. And I think the
Speaker 1: veterans they just you know, uh, we ask so much
Speaker 1: out of them and then when they come back, the
Speaker 1: way they get treated as far as you know, for
Speaker 1: whether it's healthcare and mental health or anything, I think
Speaker 1: is you know, it's shameful sometimes, you know. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and this is all the stuff I'm interested in. I
Speaker 1: got so many questions about Hiawaska. Yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I kind of want to explore it, but I'm also
Speaker 1: scared of it. And you know, maybe that fear is
Speaker 1: is I just don't know stuff or anything. Would you
Speaker 1: ever would you ever take the Hiawaska trip? Because I've
Speaker 1: heard these stories and they just sound terrible. It doesn't
Speaker 1: sound fun, Yeah, but it sounds impactful in your life,
Speaker 1: Like I would definitely be interesting. Like that's some of
Speaker 1: the stuff I'm just gonna ask about, maybe for my
Speaker 1: own charress. I'm sure listeners have the same kind of questions,
Speaker 1: like what what is actually happening? Like where do you go?
Speaker 1: Like how do you know you're not going to be
Speaker 1: just grifted down when you go to Peru and some
Speaker 1: guys just gonna drop you off on a bus with
Speaker 1: thing and yeah, so like how do you ye? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like I just I don't want to go there, and
Speaker 1: I get roofy and up the Hiawaska trip. They stole
Speaker 1: my pants for yea. This is terrible. Well, definitely a
Speaker 1: lesson you'll learn, yeah, the other I guess yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: anything they can kind of reveal some of yourself to
Speaker 1: you and preconceptions what you think, and that's what I think.
Speaker 1: This this, This is what I hope for this episode,
Speaker 1: these two episodes, is that you know, we show people
Speaker 1: what think, what you think this is versus what it
Speaker 1: really is. And I'm coming to it with my own,
Speaker 1: you know, preconceived notions about stuff. So exactly A you're
Speaker 1: going to learn, Well, I got the guy for you.
Speaker 1: This is someone that has kind of like talked to talk,
Speaker 1: walk the walk, and a wide variety of different areas.
Speaker 1: Jesse Gould. He's an army ranger veteran, and Jesse's also
Speaker 1: the founder and president of the Heroic Hearts Project, which
Speaker 1: is a nonprofit that's really pioneering psychedelic therapies for military veterans.
Speaker 1: So a lot of what's happened with the War on
Speaker 1: Drugs is really suppressed a lot of potential medications, therapist treatments,
Speaker 1: and just research. And Jesse's you know, organization one of
Speaker 1: the ones really seeing the you know, amazing potential benefits
Speaker 1: psychedelics could have, you know, for treating and curing PTSD,
Speaker 1: particularly in veterans who have you know, and extremely in sobering,
Speaker 1: high depression and suicide rate. Yeah, I don't want to
Speaker 1: step on it because this is just an episode for
Speaker 1: pretty much everyone, and I think it's going to impact them.
Speaker 1: So let's let's shut my mouth and let Jesse start talking.
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you all to hear this episode.
Speaker 1: Let's go to Jesse Gould. Jesse, welcome to the War
Speaker 1: on Drugs. Honor to have you here. I am immensely
Speaker 1: interested in this issue. I've heard amazing anecdotes about the
Speaker 1: efficacy of of ayahuasca therapy UM and you know, particularly
Speaker 1: with you know, this population of veterans coming back. You know,
Speaker 1: current therapies and treatments, either from the VA or others
Speaker 1: are it's just absolutely failing this population. So really excited
Speaker 1: to talk about this and dive on into your story.
Speaker 1: So thanks for having us, Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1: Yeah well yeah the Greg and Clayton. Pleasure to meet you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on and giving this the Voice
Speaker 1: of platform. So looking forward to this conversation where you
Speaker 1: both yeah and Jesse. You know, our our audience won't
Speaker 1: be able to see you, but I don't think you're
Speaker 1: the you know who people think about like selling all
Speaker 1: their possessions and moving down to you know, South America
Speaker 1: and doing ayahuasca. You know, yeah, he does it. He
Speaker 1: looks like, you know, he took a shower today, he doesn't,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. You've seen fish less than
Speaker 1: four times? Yeah, yeah, yeah, your your story is amazing.
Speaker 1: Let's just get into the story. Yeah. Well, I first
Speaker 1: want to confirm my did take shower this morning, mostly
Speaker 1: due to my wife. So you know, um, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean you look like yeah, my story it's actually all
Speaker 1: too common for veterans where I was an army ranger,
Speaker 1: like you said, I was a non commissioned officer, so
Speaker 1: in charge of now anywhere from ten to twenty junior
Speaker 1: rangers overseas combat situations. M And when I got out
Speaker 1: of the military, generally speaking, I was ready to hit
Speaker 1: the ground running. I had this background in economics, I
Speaker 1: just have you know this experiences rangers like what can
Speaker 1: what can touch me? What can stop me? Right? And
Speaker 1: so I was excited found a job in finance, kind
Speaker 1: of was starting to hit all the green check marks
Speaker 1: of what my life should be without really checking in
Speaker 1: on how I felt about it. And you know, little
Speaker 1: by little, the the trauma that I was ignoring that
Speaker 1: was really good at compartmentalizing just started manifesting in my
Speaker 1: life in a lot of pretty bad ways. So, like
Speaker 1: I said, it's it's it's all an all two common
Speaker 1: veteran story of you know, alcoholism, depression, and anxiety completely
Speaker 1: just ignoring your situation, engaging in risky behaviors just for
Speaker 1: kind of lack of concern of your own life, bad relationships.
Speaker 1: I could go down the whole list, and there are
Speaker 1: a lot of veterans gonna be like, yep, have that one,
Speaker 1: and have that one. Fortunately I'm pretty lucky where I
Speaker 1: noticed the red flags. I was coming into work completely
Speaker 1: hungover because I was still able to like do the work. Well.
Speaker 1: I think it just kind of perpetuated it. But it
Speaker 1: was just like I would wake up with like, you know,
Speaker 1: having fallen over a busted hand or something, just really
Speaker 1: stupid stuff that I was just like what are you doing? Like,
Speaker 1: like how's this is not sustainable? And so I went
Speaker 1: to the VA. Unfortunately, in the VA, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's overwhelmed. But then also like their main go to
Speaker 1: is put you on medication, to the point where like
Speaker 1: even the veterans I work with today, it's not uncommon
Speaker 1: for them to have a laundry list of ten different
Speaker 1: medications that they have to take on a pretty regular basis,
Speaker 1: which is pretty ridiculous, you know. So I was in
Speaker 1: that same situation of it was just sort of like, hey,
Speaker 1: you're going through this, how about this medication? Without really
Speaker 1: understanding what was going on, without any real track to
Speaker 1: like overcome this stuff. It was just more of like, hey,
Speaker 1: you can maintain it and be functional, but you're not
Speaker 1: going to be great. And I just kind of walked
Speaker 1: away of like what's going on? Like even the professionals
Speaker 1: don't seem to have a handle on this and it
Speaker 1: has to be more than this. Like I think it
Speaker 1: was just had my personality of I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: going to just struggle with this the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: I'm not just going to maintain like I have to
Speaker 1: face it full off head on, and I didn't really
Speaker 1: know how to do that. Around that time, heard about
Speaker 1: ayahuasca through the podcast, through the magic of auditory media,
Speaker 1: and kind of came in as anybody else probably here
Speaker 1: would have like, oh psychedelics, Yeah, that's that's really going
Speaker 1: to help without doing more drugs is the key to success, right,
Speaker 1: That's that's the story we always hear um. But I
Speaker 1: was just at such a bad and low and lower
Speaker 1: spot that I decided to give it a shot. Was
Speaker 1: I did that reflection in my life of like, all right,
Speaker 1: well this isn't worth preserving, this isn't worth preserving. My job,
Speaker 1: like it was interesting at first, but it was just
Speaker 1: really became that corporate job where you just like looking
Speaker 1: at the clock and like, what am I doing here?
Speaker 1: Saved the company fifty cents today? Awesome? Good job for me? Right,
Speaker 1: And so it was just like all right, well, nothing's
Speaker 1: going nothing's worth saving here. I'm just getting more and
Speaker 1: more depressed and downhill. There's something in the Amazon, there's
Speaker 1: something in the jungle. Let's let's give it a shot.
Speaker 1: So I'm not a stranger to just making big decisions
Speaker 1: and so, like you know, I'm packed up my stuff
Speaker 1: and bought a one way ticket just because I knew
Speaker 1: the script need to be changed. I knew there's nothing
Speaker 1: worth preserving in that life I had created in Tampa.
Speaker 1: I want to get back to a little bit because
Speaker 1: you talked about some of the experiences with ayahuasca. Can
Speaker 1: you be just kind of talk us through what that
Speaker 1: was from your personal experience, I mean, as as you know,
Speaker 1: as detail as you as you feel comfortable with on
Speaker 1: what you experience, what realizations you felt you had, how
Speaker 1: it's helped you personally, and then kind of just moving
Speaker 1: from there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, always happy too, And I
Speaker 1: always want to emphasize to anybody who's like listening for
Speaker 1: them not to focus too much on other people's like
Speaker 1: trip reports and stuff, just because the interesting thing about
Speaker 1: these experiences, this is very unique. You know, my experience
Speaker 1: is going to be different than somebody else's. Mind can
Speaker 1: be extremely hard somebody else can be very easy or beautiful.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the reason we think it works
Speaker 1: is because it's not a one size fits all solution.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, my going that that disclaimer aside,
Speaker 1: my experience was it was all out warm. I had
Speaker 1: never done psychedelics before. I had no interest in doing
Speaker 1: psychedelics before. I hadn't even smoke we before. It was
Speaker 1: just from like a drank a lot. But it was
Speaker 1: just from zero to like, let's find the toughest psychedelic
Speaker 1: out there, kind of going into that dumb ranger mentality,
Speaker 1: and you had no gateway drunk, you just barrel through
Speaker 1: the door, Yeah, through a smoke grenade. And so, I
Speaker 1: mean it was exactly as you would expect in that
Speaker 1: situation where I was like, what the hell's going on?
Speaker 1: Like why did I do this to myself? And it
Speaker 1: was just so overwhelming and hard to control. And this
Speaker 1: over the course of the week, there's four ceremonies. They
Speaker 1: tend to like build upon each each night, and so
Speaker 1: like the first two ceremonies were just the most discomfort
Speaker 1: and fear and whatever, you know, things that you don't
Speaker 1: want to experience all compact into these two nights, and
Speaker 1: especially with ayahuasca, has a purging aspect, which generally takes
Speaker 1: the form of a puking can take other forms as well,
Speaker 1: But I was just NonStop puking in my bucket all night,
Speaker 1: like and just in this crazy sort of psychedelic, chaotic
Speaker 1: state that's hard to relate to anybody else unless they've
Speaker 1: been there, and you know, the whole time, you're like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong, Like, am I having the fears come up?
Speaker 1: So it took me some time, you know, just kind
Speaker 1: of that strong headed of like I'm not gonna with us,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to surrender, and you know, I just
Speaker 1: I had to learn that lesson the hard way. And
Speaker 1: so then in the third ceremony it started off and
Speaker 1: it was just even worse than a second. I didn't
Speaker 1: think that was possible, and I was, you know, like afraid.
Speaker 1: But after a little while, I almost envisioned or hallucinated
Speaker 1: this hand just like ripping me out of that of
Speaker 1: the of the hell zone and immediately plopping me down
Speaker 1: into like the serene sort of just like lounge where
Speaker 1: even physiologically I I state transformed from being sweaty, uh,
Speaker 1: not being able to sit still, like just completely suffocating
Speaker 1: and overwhelmed to instantly calm, like heart rate down, feeling
Speaker 1: a cool breeze, slat sweat gone away, and I was like, whoa,
Speaker 1: what was that? That's and the fact that you had
Speaker 1: a place you could go in your brain but you
Speaker 1: didn't know it was there, like that was, and there's
Speaker 1: there's a lot of places I didn't know was there
Speaker 1: and I don't want to go. Yeah, yeah, you didn't
Speaker 1: know it was a cool place to go. I got
Speaker 1: some other stuff out of the closet that was fall number.
Speaker 1: We'll keep some of the other stuff there. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: have a few bills to peg, so we're gonna go
Speaker 1: to a couple commercials right now. Hi, I'm Jason Flam
Speaker 1: CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home to
Speaker 1: Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, and many
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Speaker 1: your support. The War on Drugs podcast is sponsored by
Speaker 1: Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community that partners
Speaker 1: with America's boldest change makers to tackle the root causes
Speaker 1: of our country's biggest problems. The Libertas Institute is working
Speaker 1: to solve one of those problems and is fighting for
Speaker 1: common sense reform in Utah. Right now, twenty nine percent
Speaker 1: of adults are experiencing mental health challenges in Utah, where
Speaker 1: the suicide rate is also one and a half times
Speaker 1: of national average. Psilocybin, the psychoactive substance naturally found in mushrooms,
Speaker 1: is considered by some of the most renowned medical facilities
Speaker 1: in the world to be one of the most promising
Speaker 1: sources of hope for people experiencing depression where traditional medication
Speaker 1: has failed. Even though it's safe and effective, psilocybin remains
Speaker 1: classified as the Schedule one drug under federal law. Our
Speaker 1: neighbors who have not found hope with current treatments should
Speaker 1: not have to choose between potentially life saving medication and incarceration.
Speaker 1: The Libertas Institute is working to change state law so
Speaker 1: that patients can use psilocybin under the supervision of a
Speaker 1: therapist to learn more about stand Together their partners or
Speaker 1: how you can partner to stand together. Go to Stand
Speaker 1: Together dot org. You almost highlighted how the cure works
Speaker 1: are how it untangles your brain like things that you'd
Speaker 1: you And of course everybody asked about what's the trip like,
Speaker 1: what's the trip like? And that's what I was thinking
Speaker 1: at first, but you put it into in the terms
Speaker 1: of its individual nobody's going to be the same and
Speaker 1: whatever you need to work out is what you need
Speaker 1: to work out, and so somebody else might pull something different. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And it's been interesting because you know, our core mission
Speaker 1: is help the veterans on the ground. There there's for
Speaker 1: people who don't know, it's anywhere from seventeen sometimes people
Speaker 1: throughout the number twenty two. Sometimes there's bigger numbers of
Speaker 1: veterans that commit suicide a day, so there's just absolute need.
Speaker 1: Our wait list right now is over a thousand veterans
Speaker 1: that have reached out to us to go seek psychedelics.
Speaker 1: And we're a small nonprofit, so that that number should
Speaker 1: shock every single person that we're not a VA institution.
Speaker 1: Where we're outside of this of the manifestation of the
Speaker 1: problem that has been caused by that. And that's part
Speaker 1: of the reason I've founded her own carts project, just
Speaker 1: because I had some you know, I felt I could
Speaker 1: handle myself, but I don't. I don't want other people
Speaker 1: just like, oh he said this, let's go to Peru
Speaker 1: and figure it out. That's that's a recipe for disaster
Speaker 1: for anybody you know and you know anybody else that's
Speaker 1: like listening to this again, I want to caution you
Speaker 1: know with this, it's not just this magic thing of like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take psychedelics and Jesse said that I'm going
Speaker 1: to be better. No, b B, be cautious if you
Speaker 1: if you want to do it, you know, you're the
Speaker 1: you're the master of your own domain. But if you
Speaker 1: want to actually do these in an effective way for
Speaker 1: treatment and for trauma for therapy, what we say is
Speaker 1: you would really want to do an intention base so
Speaker 1: one that takes a lot of preparation. That's kind of
Speaker 1: what we designed in our program. There's lead up, there's um,
Speaker 1: you know, dietary sort of restrictions, there's getting your mind
Speaker 1: in that right sense. I didn't have any of this,
Speaker 1: and that's why I started building it. UM. Now, what
Speaker 1: we do in terms of the centers we use, we
Speaker 1: do so full on vetting, so even to the point
Speaker 1: of sitting in ceremony where we see how they hold themselves,
Speaker 1: hold the space around it, what the what the safety
Speaker 1: precautions are, what's the schedule look like? What what's support
Speaker 1: do they have before and afterwards? This? If you're going
Speaker 1: to do this, this is a serious process, especially for
Speaker 1: people of trauma. It's not, like I said, just as
Speaker 1: like poof, it's gone. Like it can be a very
Speaker 1: challenging experience. You can bring up a lot. So you
Speaker 1: want to make sure what where you're going is safe.
Speaker 1: You want to make sure that they have support mechanisms
Speaker 1: in place. Can you briefly talk about some of like
Speaker 1: how the long term effects? How you felt? You know
Speaker 1: immediately you know there's week's following and then you know,
Speaker 1: you know months years after, Um, do you need like
Speaker 1: a tune up sometimes like how does that all work? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Absolutely so, I mean immediately afterwards of like what the hell?
Speaker 1: And again you know, like really wasn't a support system
Speaker 1: design it? Because it is you know, like it's it's
Speaker 1: hard for for that to happen. So all these things
Speaker 1: were kind of factoring into my brain which would later
Speaker 1: form pro Carts project. But at that time I was
Speaker 1: just like wow, Like one, it was just that wasn't
Speaker 1: what people told me what the psychedelics would be like.
Speaker 1: That was cool, but that wasn't enjoyable, and that wasn't
Speaker 1: like a good well, I mean it was good in
Speaker 1: terms of the help, but too, like my brain felt different.
Speaker 1: I felt different. I just felt more in charge of
Speaker 1: who I was and in control without whatever that was
Speaker 1: affecting me almost you know, the demons that were like
Speaker 1: driving me to do bad decisions. So for the first time,
Speaker 1: I felt like really aligned and empowered of my choices
Speaker 1: and what I was going to do. And so I
Speaker 1: started formulating this and like this is something I was
Speaker 1: missing and I want to bring to other veterans as
Speaker 1: well as just let them know, like hey, if you've
Speaker 1: tried everything else, maybe this this should be on your radar.
Speaker 1: And no, no, no pressure. There's there's a great window
Speaker 1: after psychedelics where one you do get those downloads, there
Speaker 1: does seem to be the lasting benefits where like I said,
Speaker 1: you kind of have a better understanding of your negative
Speaker 1: patterns and some of these sort of holes and pits
Speaker 1: we fall into, and maybe with that understanding be able
Speaker 1: to like sidestep them a little bit. But beyond that too,
Speaker 1: you have to be diligent about incorporating positive life habits
Speaker 1: while you have that motivation. Because most people feel great,
Speaker 1: we call the honeymoon period, and it's a perfect time
Speaker 1: to incorporate meditation, incorporate yoga, go for nature walks, you know,
Speaker 1: set up good systems with your spouse. If you don't
Speaker 1: do that, if you just go right back to your
Speaker 1: old habits, you're probably going to go over right back
Speaker 1: to your old habits and right back to your old traumas, right,
Speaker 1: And so there's that part of it, that's that continual
Speaker 1: sort of process. Let's get into the hero Kards project.
Speaker 1: I want to I want to hear about this. So actually,
Speaker 1: how does this all work? You know, just kind of
Speaker 1: core goals and mission and you know, just kind of
Speaker 1: epicacy of everything. So, yeah, about the program. So for
Speaker 1: people who don't kind of follow illegal drugs, which is
Speaker 1: a very common thing to do unless you're a little
Speaker 1: bit suspect. Psychedelics as well as cannabis and M duma.
Speaker 1: They're all Schedule one substances in the US in many
Speaker 1: other countries, which means according to that law, they have
Speaker 1: no medicinal value and they're extremely addictive, which is factually
Speaker 1: wrong on all sides with all those substances, but they're
Speaker 1: caught in that Schedule one because it's impossible to prove
Speaker 1: that they are not the way the laws work. But anyway,
Speaker 1: so we do about four to six weeks of preparation,
Speaker 1: so really getting the person in that mind frame. They
Speaker 1: get one on one coaching, we do groups coaching, we
Speaker 1: do breathwork, mindfulness. They have connections to people who do
Speaker 1: yoga within the network, so leading up to that, they're
Speaker 1: starting to do better things for themselves, but they're also
Speaker 1: forming their intentions of why they're going and kind of
Speaker 1: focusing in words of doing this and then the aftercare
Speaker 1: follow up coaching. More Group Zoom calls being in the
Speaker 1: network in general of supporting of people that understand where
Speaker 1: they've been and are actually wanted to talk about. And
Speaker 1: so we just connect people and just try to figure
Speaker 1: out what they're struggling from, kind of getting out of
Speaker 1: this dogmatic like you have PTSD here you go of
Speaker 1: what was your trauma? How are you feeling now? What
Speaker 1: have you gone through? What other things can we connect
Speaker 1: you to? And that's the beauty of There's a lot
Speaker 1: of other great veteran organizations like one called Where Your
Speaker 1: Angel Foundation that does hormone replacement therapy for veterans with
Speaker 1: head trauma. And so if that if the veterans have
Speaker 1: head trauma, then they can go through that as well
Speaker 1: as our program or some other psychedelics like Iby Game
Speaker 1: that have been shown to be more effective with that.
Speaker 1: So again looking at somebody like a complex person that
Speaker 1: they are and not just this one size fits all.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say, appreciate your service and appreciate
Speaker 1: what you're doing for the well that have been in
Speaker 1: the service. And you know, the veterans listening is suffering
Speaker 1: from depression of PTSD. What's the best way they can
Speaker 1: find you in the Heroic Hearts Project. So for those
Speaker 1: that you know are suffering, we always say like hold on,
Speaker 1: like we are finally getting good solutions. Good resolutions, you know,
Speaker 1: suicides and never the answer. People do want you around.
Speaker 1: So there's suicide hotlines. Always check those out, um and
Speaker 1: just hold on if they're looking for this or just
Speaker 1: more information about psychedelics, and they can come to our
Speaker 1: website herocarts Project dot org. We're on all major social
Speaker 1: media's mostly Instagram hero Carts Project. If you just you know,
Speaker 1: search that reach out um and you know if you're
Speaker 1: if you're interested, we have a veteran application beyond that
Speaker 1: for people who just want to support. It is a nonprofit,
Speaker 1: so the only way we're able to send veterans is
Speaker 1: through donations. Each veteran costs about four thousand to send.
Speaker 1: Like I said, we have an endless list. This is
Speaker 1: a community again, a community event. We all need to
Speaker 1: work together. It's not just myself or my team. We
Speaker 1: all need to take responsibility for not only veterans, but
Speaker 1: other people in our community that are really suffering. That's great.
Speaker 1: We'll put a linkum a description for vets and people
Speaker 1: want to help and support Jesse's cause because I think
Speaker 1: this is absolutely worth it. This is amazing work. Absolutely yeah, seriously,
Speaker 1: but no, Jesse, thank you man, a lot of great insight.
Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. Amazing, Yeah, thanks Jesse, Thank you guys.
Speaker 1: Clayton wasn't cheap to get so we had to cut
Speaker 1: a couple of commercials. We'll be right back. Somebody got
Speaker 1: to pay me, all right, Greg. I got a story
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to call it. I think
Speaker 1: I think this is psychedelic ginger vacation. That's about the
Speaker 1: best I could put it. Um, it sounds like my nickname.
Speaker 1: That's that's a good that's a good album title. Once
Speaker 1: again coming up with some good album titles on this podcast. Man, Hey,
Speaker 1: if you need an album title, reach out to clayton
Speaker 1: Ning is our Greg Glood at the World Drugs Podcast.
Speaker 1: We own this one now we will sell it. Thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it works something out. Um. Yeah, I came across this story.
Speaker 1: Learned a lot with this story. Apparently where the whole
Speaker 1: magic mushrooms thing came from. The origin story. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lady Maria Sabina in the heels of Wahakka and
Speaker 1: she was like the mushroom Guru. She was healing people
Speaker 1: with the mushrooms. She were convinced that the mushrooms were
Speaker 1: from God for healing, and it was it was just
Speaker 1: you would hold these ceremonies and see people through whatever
Speaker 1: trouble they might have, whatever needed to. She would have
Speaker 1: visions and the visions would tell her what was required
Speaker 1: to heal the person. And it was beautiful from what
Speaker 1: I hear. You know that the local church, he was
Speaker 1: a part of her church. It wasn't It wasn't like
Speaker 1: it was a separate thing. It was part of it.
Speaker 1: It was a religious thing for these people. And in
Speaker 1: fifty five, the vice president of JP Morgan goes down
Speaker 1: there and he wants to try some mushrooms. Seem to
Speaker 1: have the best drugs, so well, you know, leave it
Speaker 1: to the wealthy people to seek out new and exotic drugs.
Speaker 1: So he was the vice president of JP Morgan, so
Speaker 1: apparently had an affinity for mushrooms and things of that nature,
Speaker 1: and went down here and sought Maria out. And I
Speaker 1: believe at first Maria didn't want to take him because
Speaker 1: there was nothing wrong with him. There was nothing to heal.
Speaker 1: So really it was just like strictly healing, like someone
Speaker 1: has to be. It served a purpose, it was. It
Speaker 1: was for helping those people. And she was kind of
Speaker 1: like the guru that took you, and I guess it
Speaker 1: took some convincing and eventually she did, and you know,
Speaker 1: I guess they spend some time down there and they
Speaker 1: came back with their findings to the States and it
Speaker 1: sparked a boom that sent everybody and they MoMA down
Speaker 1: to this little last town in Wahaka and basically upset
Speaker 1: the whole ecosystem of this town. Like the word gets
Speaker 1: out and then yeah, it's overrun by hippies. Here come yeah,
Speaker 1: here come the hippies come America. Yeah, and through your
Speaker 1: little thing up. Yeah. And um the guy, the guy
Speaker 1: from JP Morgan Wasson is his last name. He actually
Speaker 1: comes back several times and actually gets funded to go
Speaker 1: down there through a shell company of the CIA, because
Speaker 1: of course they're looking at LSD at that time for
Speaker 1: their mk Ultra program. So yeah, so they fund Wasson
Speaker 1: going down there. Did he know about it? No, he
Speaker 1: didn't know that it was funded about because a lot
Speaker 1: I was gonna say a lot of the times they
Speaker 1: essentially just used people as yeah, yeah, they act research
Speaker 1: company or something like that. That's crazy. Yeah, And it
Speaker 1: just uh yeah kind of tore up this town and
Speaker 1: ruined these people in their city. And what happened to
Speaker 1: the woman They can't be too happy with her. No. Actually,
Speaker 1: like in Wahaka, I feel they message no, no, they
Speaker 1: really kind of turned on her. Man. The publicity was,
Speaker 1: you know, terrible. The community blamed her for bringing, you know,
Speaker 1: the foreigners to the village, everything being defiled, the sacredness
Speaker 1: of the mushrooms and the ritual. You know, the tourists
Speaker 1: were having bad trips, running around naked, and you know,
Speaker 1: it got to the point where they eventually burned her house.
Speaker 1: That wow, they burned her house. Yeah. And and and
Speaker 1: to think where she went from where she was, she
Speaker 1: was loved in the community. She was a healer. They
Speaker 1: respected her, and they loved her, and they loved what
Speaker 1: she was doing. And the one time she decides to
Speaker 1: give the mushrooms to someone who doesn't need to be healed,
Speaker 1: opened up this whole can of worms. I think she
Speaker 1: was even quoted as saying, like the mushrooms, I believe
Speaker 1: she might have called them the sacred children or something,
Speaker 1: don't have any more power like they had. It's harder
Speaker 1: because of her. Yeah, And I know that's kind of
Speaker 1: what happens with a lot of these drugs. It feels
Speaker 1: like where they have these amazing, like actual like benefits. Yea,
Speaker 1: you know, they use them in you know Jesse obviously,
Speaker 1: like you know, curing PTSD, people used doing for marriage
Speaker 1: counsel for all this stuff like you know, ecstasy, MDMA,
Speaker 1: like they have these great benefits. Then it kind of
Speaker 1: gets out in the world, some people abuse it and
Speaker 1: then it goes completely banned, and it's like, yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, that's kind of what I liked about Jesse
Speaker 1: was doing too. It becomes like a part of a
Speaker 1: healing aspect. He's bringing people down that have PTSD, they're
Speaker 1: going through the ritual, you know, and so it's it's
Speaker 1: it's a whole thing, and you know, he's doing it
Speaker 1: the right way. He's showing people incredible things. I think
Speaker 1: about the amount of drugs and therapy and treatment that
Speaker 1: have failed people, it's amazing. We can't just balance that.
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating our laws and our drug war.
Speaker 1: UM disallows that. Well regardless, you know, I'm Maria Sabina
Speaker 1: stand here, Um I she you know what she was
Speaker 1: talking without healing, you know, medically, I don't know if
Speaker 1: there's certain ailments, but like from a mental health standpoint,
Speaker 1: you know, she was onto something with what she was doing,
Speaker 1: regardless of how she got there. And you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, the religious aspects of it. Yeah. She you know,
Speaker 1: she was definitely onto something with it. Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: to see you know, people kind of coming back around
Speaker 1: to that, you know, because I just towards the end
Speaker 1: of her life, I can imagine how she felt feeling
Speaker 1: responsible for, you know, just her place in her community
Speaker 1: being destroyed and also the community as a whole getting
Speaker 1: kind of desecrated and defiled. So yeah, Maria, you you
Speaker 1: were onto something. I think it's still a little bit
Speaker 1: magic in there, you know. I think I think the
Speaker 1: children are still out. Yeah. Make sure you follow the
Speaker 1: War on Drugs podcast so you don't miss any new
Speaker 1: episodes or any of our quick fixed bonus content, and
Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with another episode of War
Speaker 1: on Drugs. Until then, thank you for listening. Executive producers
Speaker 1: for War on Drugs are Jason Flam and Kevin Wordis.
Speaker 1: Senior producer is Michael Epstein, Editing by Nick Massetti and
Speaker 1: Michael Epstein, Associate producer and mix and mastering by Nick Massetti.
Speaker 1: Additional production by Jeff Clivern and Anna mcinteam. We should
Speaker 1: have followed the show on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at
Speaker 1: Lava for Good. You could follow Greg on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Greg Glode. You could follow Clayton English on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Clayton English. The War on Drugs is a production of
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Clayton English, and I'm Greg Glode, and
Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the War on Drugs podcast m