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Speaker 1: All right, so great. When are illegal drugs good for

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Speaker 1: your mental health? I guess it depends on the drugs.

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Speaker 1: Suicide rates among military personnel and veterans are climbing to

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Speaker 1: new highs in post nine to eleven conflicts. A study

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Speaker 1: found that four times as many US service members and

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Speaker 1: veterans have died by suicide than have been killed in combat.

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Speaker 1: I just have you know, the experiences rangers like what

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Speaker 1: can what can touch me? You know, little by little,

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Speaker 1: the trauma those ignoring started manifesting in my life in

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Speaker 1: a lot of pretty bad ways. Alcoholism, impression, anxiety, engaging,

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Speaker 1: and risky behavior. Is an urgent need for new alternative

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Speaker 1: approaches to therapy, and significant promise has been shown with

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Speaker 1: drugs as ancients as they are controversial. After a little while,

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Speaker 1: almost hallucinated this hand just like stripping me out of

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Speaker 1: that of the hell zone and immediately plopping me down

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Speaker 1: into the serene sort of just like mound, And I

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Speaker 1: was like, whoa what was that? That's and and the

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Speaker 1: fact that you had a place you could go in

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Speaker 1: your brain but you didn't know it was there, like

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Speaker 1: that was and there there's a lot of places to Yeah,

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Speaker 1: closed that door permanently. Yeah, I'm Greg Glad and this

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Speaker 1: is the War on Drugs. Well, man, Greg, how you

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Speaker 1: doing today? I'm great, Clay, And how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm great man. You know, we're gonna be doing something

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Speaker 1: special for you know, this episode actually the next episode.

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Speaker 1: Like we thought we were gonna do an episode on

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Speaker 1: kind of mental health or on drugs, psychedelics their impacts,

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Speaker 1: and we started just digging in and it just wasn't

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Speaker 1: too big. Yeah, it can't fit, can't fit in the bag. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we need a bigger back. Yeah. Two yeah, definitely. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we're doing two parts kind of talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: personal experiences with UM, you know, combat veterans and their

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Speaker 1: experiences with PTSD, and you know, treatments like psychedelics with ayahuasca,

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Speaker 1: you know the efficacy of these and how much better

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Speaker 1: results you're getting, you know, without having you know, just

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Speaker 1: being pumped with a bunch of pills that which is

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Speaker 1: like our only way that we know how to treat

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Speaker 1: you know, these types of mental mental health issues. So

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Speaker 1: UM and then kind of getting more into the science

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Speaker 1: of this, like why does it work? And then the

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Speaker 1: impediments like why aren't we what's the problems with research,

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Speaker 1: how do we do this? And you know, always goes

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Speaker 1: back to just like this arbitrary enforcement of certain substances

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Speaker 1: over others and why um and so I'm super super

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Speaker 1: excited to dive into all this. Yeah, me too. I

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Speaker 1: see why we had to split it into two. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot to talk about. And I think the

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Speaker 1: veterans they just you know, uh, we ask so much

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Speaker 1: out of them and then when they come back, the

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Speaker 1: way they get treated as far as you know, for

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Speaker 1: whether it's healthcare and mental health or anything, I think

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Speaker 1: is you know, it's shameful sometimes, you know. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this is all the stuff I'm interested in. I

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Speaker 1: got so many questions about Hiawaska. Yeah, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to explore it, but I'm also

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Speaker 1: scared of it. And you know, maybe that fear is

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Speaker 1: is I just don't know stuff or anything. Would you

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Speaker 1: ever would you ever take the Hiawaska trip? Because I've

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Speaker 1: heard these stories and they just sound terrible. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound fun, Yeah, but it sounds impactful in your life,

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Speaker 1: Like I would definitely be interesting. Like that's some of

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Speaker 1: the stuff I'm just gonna ask about, maybe for my

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Speaker 1: own charress. I'm sure listeners have the same kind of questions,

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Speaker 1: like what what is actually happening? Like where do you go?

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Speaker 1: Like how do you know you're not going to be

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Speaker 1: just grifted down when you go to Peru and some

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Speaker 1: guys just gonna drop you off on a bus with

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Speaker 1: thing and yeah, so like how do you ye? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like I just I don't want to go there, and

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Speaker 1: I get roofy and up the Hiawaska trip. They stole

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Speaker 1: my pants for yea. This is terrible. Well, definitely a

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Speaker 1: lesson you'll learn, yeah, the other I guess yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: anything they can kind of reveal some of yourself to

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Speaker 1: you and preconceptions what you think, and that's what I think.

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Speaker 1: This this, This is what I hope for this episode,

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Speaker 1: these two episodes, is that you know, we show people

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Speaker 1: what think, what you think this is versus what it

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Speaker 1: really is. And I'm coming to it with my own,

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Speaker 1: you know, preconceived notions about stuff. So exactly A you're

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Speaker 1: going to learn, Well, I got the guy for you.

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Speaker 1: This is someone that has kind of like talked to talk,

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Speaker 1: walk the walk, and a wide variety of different areas.

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Speaker 1: Jesse Gould. He's an army ranger veteran, and Jesse's also

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Speaker 1: the founder and president of the Heroic Hearts Project, which

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Speaker 1: is a nonprofit that's really pioneering psychedelic therapies for military veterans.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of what's happened with the War on

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Speaker 1: Drugs is really suppressed a lot of potential medications, therapist treatments,

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Speaker 1: and just research. And Jesse's you know, organization one of

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Speaker 1: the ones really seeing the you know, amazing potential benefits

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Speaker 1: psychedelics could have, you know, for treating and curing PTSD,

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Speaker 1: particularly in veterans who have you know, and extremely in sobering,

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Speaker 1: high depression and suicide rate. Yeah, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: step on it because this is just an episode for

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Speaker 1: pretty much everyone, and I think it's going to impact them.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's shut my mouth and let Jesse start talking.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait for you all to hear this episode.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to Jesse Gould. Jesse, welcome to the War

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Speaker 1: on Drugs. Honor to have you here. I am immensely

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Speaker 1: interested in this issue. I've heard amazing anecdotes about the

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Speaker 1: efficacy of of ayahuasca therapy UM and you know, particularly

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Speaker 1: with you know, this population of veterans coming back. You know,

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Speaker 1: current therapies and treatments, either from the VA or others

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Speaker 1: are it's just absolutely failing this population. So really excited

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Speaker 1: to talk about this and dive on into your story.

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Speaker 1: So thanks for having us, Thank you for coming on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah well yeah the Greg and Clayton. Pleasure to meet you.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on and giving this the Voice

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Speaker 1: of platform. So looking forward to this conversation where you

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Speaker 1: both yeah and Jesse. You know, our our audience won't

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Speaker 1: be able to see you, but I don't think you're

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Speaker 1: the you know who people think about like selling all

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Speaker 1: their possessions and moving down to you know, South America

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Speaker 1: and doing ayahuasca. You know, yeah, he does it. He

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Speaker 1: looks like, you know, he took a shower today, he doesn't,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. You've seen fish less than

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Speaker 1: four times? Yeah, yeah, yeah, your your story is amazing.

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Speaker 1: Let's just get into the story. Yeah. Well, I first

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Speaker 1: want to confirm my did take shower this morning, mostly

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Speaker 1: due to my wife. So you know, um, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you look like yeah, my story it's actually all

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Speaker 1: too common for veterans where I was an army ranger,

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Speaker 1: like you said, I was a non commissioned officer, so

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Speaker 1: in charge of now anywhere from ten to twenty junior

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Speaker 1: rangers overseas combat situations. M And when I got out

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Speaker 1: of the military, generally speaking, I was ready to hit

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Speaker 1: the ground running. I had this background in economics, I

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Speaker 1: just have you know this experiences rangers like what can

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Speaker 1: what can touch me? What can stop me? Right? And

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Speaker 1: so I was excited found a job in finance, kind

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Speaker 1: of was starting to hit all the green check marks

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Speaker 1: of what my life should be without really checking in

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Speaker 1: on how I felt about it. And you know, little

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Speaker 1: by little, the the trauma that I was ignoring that

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Speaker 1: was really good at compartmentalizing just started manifesting in my

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Speaker 1: life in a lot of pretty bad ways. So, like

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Speaker 1: I said, it's it's it's all an all two common

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Speaker 1: veteran story of you know, alcoholism, depression, and anxiety completely

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Speaker 1: just ignoring your situation, engaging in risky behaviors just for

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Speaker 1: kind of lack of concern of your own life, bad relationships.

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Speaker 1: I could go down the whole list, and there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of veterans gonna be like, yep, have that one,

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Speaker 1: and have that one. Fortunately I'm pretty lucky where I

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Speaker 1: noticed the red flags. I was coming into work completely

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Speaker 1: hungover because I was still able to like do the work. Well.

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Speaker 1: I think it just kind of perpetuated it. But it

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Speaker 1: was just like I would wake up with like, you know,

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Speaker 1: having fallen over a busted hand or something, just really

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Speaker 1: stupid stuff that I was just like what are you doing? Like,

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Speaker 1: like how's this is not sustainable? And so I went

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Speaker 1: to the VA. Unfortunately, in the VA, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's overwhelmed. But then also like their main go to

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Speaker 1: is put you on medication, to the point where like

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Speaker 1: even the veterans I work with today, it's not uncommon

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Speaker 1: for them to have a laundry list of ten different

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Speaker 1: medications that they have to take on a pretty regular basis,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty ridiculous, you know. So I was in

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Speaker 1: that same situation of it was just sort of like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're going through this, how about this medication? Without really

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Speaker 1: understanding what was going on, without any real track to

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Speaker 1: like overcome this stuff. It was just more of like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you can maintain it and be functional, but you're not

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Speaker 1: going to be great. And I just kind of walked

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Speaker 1: away of like what's going on? Like even the professionals

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Speaker 1: don't seem to have a handle on this and it

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Speaker 1: has to be more than this. Like I think it

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Speaker 1: was just had my personality of I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to just struggle with this the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm not just going to maintain like I have to

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Speaker 1: face it full off head on, and I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know how to do that. Around that time, heard about

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Speaker 1: ayahuasca through the podcast, through the magic of auditory media,

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Speaker 1: and kind of came in as anybody else probably here

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Speaker 1: would have like, oh psychedelics, Yeah, that's that's really going

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Speaker 1: to help without doing more drugs is the key to success, right,

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Speaker 1: That's that's the story we always hear um. But I

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Speaker 1: was just at such a bad and low and lower

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Speaker 1: spot that I decided to give it a shot. Was

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Speaker 1: I did that reflection in my life of like, all right,

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Speaker 1: well this isn't worth preserving, this isn't worth preserving. My job,

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Speaker 1: like it was interesting at first, but it was just

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Speaker 1: really became that corporate job where you just like looking

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Speaker 1: at the clock and like, what am I doing here?

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Speaker 1: Saved the company fifty cents today? Awesome? Good job for me? Right,

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Speaker 1: And so it was just like all right, well, nothing's

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Speaker 1: going nothing's worth saving here. I'm just getting more and

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Speaker 1: more depressed and downhill. There's something in the Amazon, there's

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Speaker 1: something in the jungle. Let's let's give it a shot.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not a stranger to just making big decisions

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Speaker 1: and so, like you know, I'm packed up my stuff

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Speaker 1: and bought a one way ticket just because I knew

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Speaker 1: the script need to be changed. I knew there's nothing

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Speaker 1: worth preserving in that life I had created in Tampa.

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Speaker 1: I want to get back to a little bit because

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Speaker 1: you talked about some of the experiences with ayahuasca. Can

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Speaker 1: you be just kind of talk us through what that

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Speaker 1: was from your personal experience, I mean, as as you know,

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Speaker 1: as detail as you as you feel comfortable with on

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Speaker 1: what you experience, what realizations you felt you had, how

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Speaker 1: it's helped you personally, and then kind of just moving

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Speaker 1: from there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, always happy too, And I

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Speaker 1: always want to emphasize to anybody who's like listening for

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Speaker 1: them not to focus too much on other people's like

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Speaker 1: trip reports and stuff, just because the interesting thing about

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Speaker 1: these experiences, this is very unique. You know, my experience

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Speaker 1: is going to be different than somebody else's. Mind can

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Speaker 1: be extremely hard somebody else can be very easy or beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of the reason we think it works

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Speaker 1: is because it's not a one size fits all solution.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, my going that that disclaimer aside,

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Speaker 1: my experience was it was all out warm. I had

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Speaker 1: never done psychedelics before. I had no interest in doing

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Speaker 1: psychedelics before. I hadn't even smoke we before. It was

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Speaker 1: just from like a drank a lot. But it was

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Speaker 1: just from zero to like, let's find the toughest psychedelic

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Speaker 1: out there, kind of going into that dumb ranger mentality,

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Speaker 1: and you had no gateway drunk, you just barrel through

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Speaker 1: the door, Yeah, through a smoke grenade. And so, I

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Speaker 1: mean it was exactly as you would expect in that

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Speaker 1: situation where I was like, what the hell's going on?

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Speaker 1: Like why did I do this to myself? And it

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Speaker 1: was just so overwhelming and hard to control. And this

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Speaker 1: over the course of the week, there's four ceremonies. They

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Speaker 1: tend to like build upon each each night, and so

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Speaker 1: like the first two ceremonies were just the most discomfort

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Speaker 1: and fear and whatever, you know, things that you don't

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Speaker 1: want to experience all compact into these two nights, and

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Speaker 1: especially with ayahuasca, has a purging aspect, which generally takes

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Speaker 1: the form of a puking can take other forms as well,

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Speaker 1: But I was just NonStop puking in my bucket all night,

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Speaker 1: like and just in this crazy sort of psychedelic, chaotic

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Speaker 1: state that's hard to relate to anybody else unless they've

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Speaker 1: been there, and you know, the whole time, you're like,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong, Like, am I having the fears come up?

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Speaker 1: So it took me some time, you know, just kind

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Speaker 1: of that strong headed of like I'm not gonna with us,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to surrender, and you know, I just

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Speaker 1: I had to learn that lesson the hard way. And

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Speaker 1: so then in the third ceremony it started off and

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Speaker 1: it was just even worse than a second. I didn't

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Speaker 1: think that was possible, and I was, you know, like afraid.

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Speaker 1: But after a little while, I almost envisioned or hallucinated

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Speaker 1: this hand just like ripping me out of that of

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Speaker 1: the of the hell zone and immediately plopping me down

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Speaker 1: into like the serene sort of just like lounge where

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Speaker 1: even physiologically I I state transformed from being sweaty, uh,

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Speaker 1: not being able to sit still, like just completely suffocating

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Speaker 1: and overwhelmed to instantly calm, like heart rate down, feeling

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Speaker 1: a cool breeze, slat sweat gone away, and I was like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: what was that? That's and the fact that you had

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Speaker 1: a place you could go in your brain but you

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Speaker 1: didn't know it was there, like that was, and there's

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of places I didn't know was there

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to go. Yeah, yeah, you didn't

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Speaker 1: know it was a cool place to go. I got

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Speaker 1: some other stuff out of the closet that was fall number.

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Speaker 1: We'll keep some of the other stuff there. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: have a few bills to peg, so we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: to a couple commercials right now. Hi, I'm Jason Flam

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Speaker 1: CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home to

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Speaker 1: Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, and many

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Speaker 1: other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners, to

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Speaker 1: take part in the survey. Your feedback is going to

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Speaker 1: help inform how we make podcasts in the future. You're

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Speaker 1: complete and candidate answers will help us continue to bring

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Speaker 1: you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics that

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Speaker 1: impact us all. So please go to Lava for Good

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Speaker 1: dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: your support. The War on Drugs podcast is sponsored by

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Speaker 1: Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community that partners

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Speaker 1: with America's boldest change makers to tackle the root causes

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Speaker 1: of our country's biggest problems. The Libertas Institute is working

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Speaker 1: to solve one of those problems and is fighting for

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Speaker 1: common sense reform in Utah. Right now, twenty nine percent

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Speaker 1: of adults are experiencing mental health challenges in Utah, where

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Speaker 1: the suicide rate is also one and a half times

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Speaker 1: of national average. Psilocybin, the psychoactive substance naturally found in mushrooms,

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Speaker 1: is considered by some of the most renowned medical facilities

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Speaker 1: in the world to be one of the most promising

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Speaker 1: sources of hope for people experiencing depression where traditional medication

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Speaker 1: has failed. Even though it's safe and effective, psilocybin remains

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Speaker 1: classified as the Schedule one drug under federal law. Our

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Speaker 1: neighbors who have not found hope with current treatments should

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Speaker 1: not have to choose between potentially life saving medication and incarceration.

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Speaker 1: The Libertas Institute is working to change state law so

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Speaker 1: that patients can use psilocybin under the supervision of a

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Speaker 1: therapist to learn more about stand Together their partners or

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Speaker 1: how you can partner to stand together. Go to Stand

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Speaker 1: Together dot org. You almost highlighted how the cure works

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Speaker 1: are how it untangles your brain like things that you'd

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Speaker 1: you And of course everybody asked about what's the trip like,

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Speaker 1: what's the trip like? And that's what I was thinking

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Speaker 1: at first, but you put it into in the terms

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Speaker 1: of its individual nobody's going to be the same and

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Speaker 1: whatever you need to work out is what you need

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Speaker 1: to work out, and so somebody else might pull something different. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And it's been interesting because you know, our core mission

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Speaker 1: is help the veterans on the ground. There there's for

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Speaker 1: people who don't know, it's anywhere from seventeen sometimes people

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Speaker 1: throughout the number twenty two. Sometimes there's bigger numbers of

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Speaker 1: veterans that commit suicide a day, so there's just absolute need.

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Speaker 1: Our wait list right now is over a thousand veterans

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Speaker 1: that have reached out to us to go seek psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: And we're a small nonprofit, so that that number should

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Speaker 1: shock every single person that we're not a VA institution.

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Speaker 1: Where we're outside of this of the manifestation of the

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Speaker 1: problem that has been caused by that. And that's part

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Speaker 1: of the reason I've founded her own carts project, just

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Speaker 1: because I had some you know, I felt I could

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Speaker 1: handle myself, but I don't. I don't want other people

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Speaker 1: just like, oh he said this, let's go to Peru

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Speaker 1: and figure it out. That's that's a recipe for disaster

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Speaker 1: for anybody you know and you know anybody else that's

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Speaker 1: like listening to this again, I want to caution you

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Speaker 1: know with this, it's not just this magic thing of like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna take psychedelics and Jesse said that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be better. No, b B, be cautious if you

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Speaker 1: if you want to do it, you know, you're the

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Speaker 1: you're the master of your own domain. But if you

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Speaker 1: want to actually do these in an effective way for

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Speaker 1: treatment and for trauma for therapy, what we say is

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Speaker 1: you would really want to do an intention base so

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Speaker 1: one that takes a lot of preparation. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: what we designed in our program. There's lead up, there's um,

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Speaker 1: you know, dietary sort of restrictions, there's getting your mind

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Speaker 1: in that right sense. I didn't have any of this,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I started building it. UM. Now, what

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Speaker 1: we do in terms of the centers we use, we

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Speaker 1: do so full on vetting, so even to the point

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Speaker 1: of sitting in ceremony where we see how they hold themselves,

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Speaker 1: hold the space around it, what the what the safety

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Speaker 1: precautions are, what's the schedule look like? What what's support

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Speaker 1: do they have before and afterwards? This? If you're going

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Speaker 1: to do this, this is a serious process, especially for

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Speaker 1: people of trauma. It's not, like I said, just as

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Speaker 1: like poof, it's gone. Like it can be a very

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Speaker 1: challenging experience. You can bring up a lot. So you

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Speaker 1: want to make sure what where you're going is safe.

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Speaker 1: You want to make sure that they have support mechanisms

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Speaker 1: in place. Can you briefly talk about some of like

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Speaker 1: how the long term effects? How you felt? You know

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Speaker 1: immediately you know there's week's following and then you know,

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Speaker 1: you know months years after, Um, do you need like

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Speaker 1: a tune up sometimes like how does that all work? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so, I mean immediately afterwards of like what the hell?

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Speaker 1: And again you know, like really wasn't a support system

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Speaker 1: design it? Because it is you know, like it's it's

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Speaker 1: hard for for that to happen. So all these things

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Speaker 1: were kind of factoring into my brain which would later

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Speaker 1: form pro Carts project. But at that time I was

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Speaker 1: just like wow, Like one, it was just that wasn't

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Speaker 1: what people told me what the psychedelics would be like.

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Speaker 1: That was cool, but that wasn't enjoyable, and that wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a good well, I mean it was good in

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Speaker 1: terms of the help, but too, like my brain felt different.

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Speaker 1: I felt different. I just felt more in charge of

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Speaker 1: who I was and in control without whatever that was

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Speaker 1: affecting me almost you know, the demons that were like

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Speaker 1: driving me to do bad decisions. So for the first time,

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Speaker 1: I felt like really aligned and empowered of my choices

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Speaker 1: and what I was going to do. And so I

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Speaker 1: started formulating this and like this is something I was

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Speaker 1: missing and I want to bring to other veterans as

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Speaker 1: well as just let them know, like hey, if you've

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Speaker 1: tried everything else, maybe this this should be on your radar.

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Speaker 1: And no, no, no pressure. There's there's a great window

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Speaker 1: after psychedelics where one you do get those downloads, there

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Speaker 1: does seem to be the lasting benefits where like I said,

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Speaker 1: you kind of have a better understanding of your negative

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Speaker 1: patterns and some of these sort of holes and pits

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Speaker 1: we fall into, and maybe with that understanding be able

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Speaker 1: to like sidestep them a little bit. But beyond that too,

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Speaker 1: you have to be diligent about incorporating positive life habits

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Speaker 1: while you have that motivation. Because most people feel great,

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Speaker 1: we call the honeymoon period, and it's a perfect time

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Speaker 1: to incorporate meditation, incorporate yoga, go for nature walks, you know,

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Speaker 1: set up good systems with your spouse. If you don't

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Speaker 1: do that, if you just go right back to your

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Speaker 1: old habits, you're probably going to go over right back

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Speaker 1: to your old habits and right back to your old traumas, right,

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Speaker 1: And so there's that part of it, that's that continual

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Speaker 1: sort of process. Let's get into the hero Kards project.

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Speaker 1: I want to I want to hear about this. So actually,

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Speaker 1: how does this all work? You know, just kind of

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Speaker 1: core goals and mission and you know, just kind of

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Speaker 1: epicacy of everything. So, yeah, about the program. So for

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Speaker 1: people who don't kind of follow illegal drugs, which is

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Speaker 1: a very common thing to do unless you're a little

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Speaker 1: bit suspect. Psychedelics as well as cannabis and M duma.

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Speaker 1: They're all Schedule one substances in the US in many

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Speaker 1: other countries, which means according to that law, they have

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Speaker 1: no medicinal value and they're extremely addictive, which is factually

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Speaker 1: wrong on all sides with all those substances, but they're

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Speaker 1: caught in that Schedule one because it's impossible to prove

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Speaker 1: that they are not the way the laws work. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so we do about four to six weeks of preparation,

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Speaker 1: so really getting the person in that mind frame. They

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Speaker 1: get one on one coaching, we do groups coaching, we

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Speaker 1: do breathwork, mindfulness. They have connections to people who do

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Speaker 1: yoga within the network, so leading up to that, they're

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Speaker 1: starting to do better things for themselves, but they're also

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Speaker 1: forming their intentions of why they're going and kind of

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Speaker 1: focusing in words of doing this and then the aftercare

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Speaker 1: follow up coaching. More Group Zoom calls being in the

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Speaker 1: network in general of supporting of people that understand where

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Speaker 1: they've been and are actually wanted to talk about. And

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Speaker 1: so we just connect people and just try to figure

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Speaker 1: out what they're struggling from, kind of getting out of

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Speaker 1: this dogmatic like you have PTSD here you go of

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Speaker 1: what was your trauma? How are you feeling now? What

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Speaker 1: have you gone through? What other things can we connect

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Speaker 1: you to? And that's the beauty of There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of other great veteran organizations like one called Where Your

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Speaker 1: Angel Foundation that does hormone replacement therapy for veterans with

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Speaker 1: head trauma. And so if that if the veterans have

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Speaker 1: head trauma, then they can go through that as well

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Speaker 1: as our program or some other psychedelics like Iby Game

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Speaker 1: that have been shown to be more effective with that.

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Speaker 1: So again looking at somebody like a complex person that

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Speaker 1: they are and not just this one size fits all.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to say, appreciate your service and appreciate

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Speaker 1: what you're doing for the well that have been in

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Speaker 1: the service. And you know, the veterans listening is suffering

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Speaker 1: from depression of PTSD. What's the best way they can

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Speaker 1: find you in the Heroic Hearts Project. So for those

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Speaker 1: that you know are suffering, we always say like hold on,

426
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: like we are finally getting good solutions. Good resolutions, you know,

427
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: suicides and never the answer. People do want you around.

428
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: So there's suicide hotlines. Always check those out, um and

429
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 1: just hold on if they're looking for this or just

430
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: more information about psychedelics, and they can come to our

431
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: website herocarts Project dot org. We're on all major social

432
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: media's mostly Instagram hero Carts Project. If you just you know,

433
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: search that reach out um and you know if you're

434
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: if you're interested, we have a veteran application beyond that

435
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: for people who just want to support. It is a nonprofit,

436
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: so the only way we're able to send veterans is

437
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: through donations. Each veteran costs about four thousand to send.

438
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: Like I said, we have an endless list. This is

439
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 1: a community again, a community event. We all need to

440
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: work together. It's not just myself or my team. We

441
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 1: all need to take responsibility for not only veterans, but

442
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: other people in our community that are really suffering. That's great.

443
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: We'll put a linkum a description for vets and people

444
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: want to help and support Jesse's cause because I think

445
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: this is absolutely worth it. This is amazing work. Absolutely yeah, seriously,

446
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: but no, Jesse, thank you man, a lot of great insight.

447
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. Amazing, Yeah, thanks Jesse, Thank you guys.

448
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: Clayton wasn't cheap to get so we had to cut

449
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 1: a couple of commercials. We'll be right back. Somebody got

450
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: to pay me, all right, Greg. I got a story

451
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to call it. I think

452
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: I think this is psychedelic ginger vacation. That's about the

453
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: best I could put it. Um, it sounds like my nickname.

454
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: That's that's a good that's a good album title. Once

455
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: again coming up with some good album titles on this podcast. Man, Hey,

456
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: if you need an album title, reach out to clayton

457
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: Ning is our Greg Glood at the World Drugs Podcast.

458
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: We own this one now we will sell it. Thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

459
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: it works something out. Um. Yeah, I came across this story.

460
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: Learned a lot with this story. Apparently where the whole

461
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: magic mushrooms thing came from. The origin story. Yeah, there's

462
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: a lady Maria Sabina in the heels of Wahakka and

463
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: she was like the mushroom Guru. She was healing people

464
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: with the mushrooms. She were convinced that the mushrooms were

465
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 1: from God for healing, and it was it was just

466
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: you would hold these ceremonies and see people through whatever

467
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: trouble they might have, whatever needed to. She would have

468
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: visions and the visions would tell her what was required

469
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: to heal the person. And it was beautiful from what

470
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: I hear. You know that the local church, he was

471
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: a part of her church. It wasn't It wasn't like

472
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: it was a separate thing. It was part of it.

473
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: It was a religious thing for these people. And in

474
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: fifty five, the vice president of JP Morgan goes down

475
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: there and he wants to try some mushrooms. Seem to

476
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: have the best drugs, so well, you know, leave it

477
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: to the wealthy people to seek out new and exotic drugs.

478
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: So he was the vice president of JP Morgan, so

479
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: apparently had an affinity for mushrooms and things of that nature,

480
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 1: and went down here and sought Maria out. And I

481
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: believe at first Maria didn't want to take him because

482
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: there was nothing wrong with him. There was nothing to heal.

483
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: So really it was just like strictly healing, like someone

484
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: has to be. It served a purpose, it was. It

485
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: was for helping those people. And she was kind of

486
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: like the guru that took you, and I guess it

487
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: took some convincing and eventually she did, and you know,

488
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: I guess they spend some time down there and they

489
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: came back with their findings to the States and it

490
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: sparked a boom that sent everybody and they MoMA down

491
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: to this little last town in Wahaka and basically upset

492
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: the whole ecosystem of this town. Like the word gets

493
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: out and then yeah, it's overrun by hippies. Here come yeah,

494
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: here come the hippies come America. Yeah, and through your

495
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: little thing up. Yeah. And um the guy, the guy

496
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: from JP Morgan Wasson is his last name. He actually

497
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: comes back several times and actually gets funded to go

498
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: down there through a shell company of the CIA, because

499
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: of course they're looking at LSD at that time for

500
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: their mk Ultra program. So yeah, so they fund Wasson

501
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: going down there. Did he know about it? No, he

502
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 1: didn't know that it was funded about because a lot

503
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: I was gonna say a lot of the times they

504
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: essentially just used people as yeah, yeah, they act research

505
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: company or something like that. That's crazy. Yeah, And it

506
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: just uh yeah kind of tore up this town and

507
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: ruined these people in their city. And what happened to

508
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: the woman They can't be too happy with her. No. Actually,

509
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: like in Wahaka, I feel they message no, no, they

510
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: really kind of turned on her. Man. The publicity was,

511
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, terrible. The community blamed her for bringing, you know,

512
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: the foreigners to the village, everything being defiled, the sacredness

513
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: of the mushrooms and the ritual. You know, the tourists

514
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: were having bad trips, running around naked, and you know,

515
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: it got to the point where they eventually burned her house.

516
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: That wow, they burned her house. Yeah. And and and

517
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: to think where she went from where she was, she

518
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: was loved in the community. She was a healer. They

519
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: respected her, and they loved her, and they loved what

520
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: she was doing. And the one time she decides to

521
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 1: give the mushrooms to someone who doesn't need to be healed,

522
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: opened up this whole can of worms. I think she

523
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: was even quoted as saying, like the mushrooms, I believe

524
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: she might have called them the sacred children or something,

525
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: don't have any more power like they had. It's harder

526
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: because of her. Yeah, And I know that's kind of

527
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: what happens with a lot of these drugs. It feels

528
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: like where they have these amazing, like actual like benefits. Yea,

529
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, they use them in you know Jesse obviously,

530
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: like you know, curing PTSD, people used doing for marriage

531
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: counsel for all this stuff like you know, ecstasy, MDMA,

532
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: like they have these great benefits. Then it kind of

533
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,479
Speaker 1: gets out in the world, some people abuse it and

534
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: then it goes completely banned, and it's like, yeah, and

535
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, that's kind of what I liked about Jesse

536
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: was doing too. It becomes like a part of a

537
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: healing aspect. He's bringing people down that have PTSD, they're

538
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: going through the ritual, you know, and so it's it's

539
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: it's a whole thing, and you know, he's doing it

540
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 1: the right way. He's showing people incredible things. I think

541
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: about the amount of drugs and therapy and treatment that

542
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: have failed people, it's amazing. We can't just balance that.

543
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating our laws and our drug war.

544
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: UM disallows that. Well regardless, you know, I'm Maria Sabina

545
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: stand here, Um I she you know what she was

546
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: talking without healing, you know, medically, I don't know if

547
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: there's certain ailments, but like from a mental health standpoint,

548
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: you know, she was onto something with what she was doing,

549
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: regardless of how she got there. And you know, um,

550
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: you know, the religious aspects of it. Yeah. She you know,

551
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: she was definitely onto something with it. Yeah. Yeah. And

552
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: to see you know, people kind of coming back around

553
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: to that, you know, because I just towards the end

554
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: of her life, I can imagine how she felt feeling

555
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: responsible for, you know, just her place in her community

556
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: being destroyed and also the community as a whole getting

557
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: kind of desecrated and defiled. So yeah, Maria, you you

558
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: were onto something. I think it's still a little bit

559
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: magic in there, you know. I think I think the

560
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: children are still out. Yeah. Make sure you follow the

561
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: War on Drugs podcast so you don't miss any new

562
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: episodes or any of our quick fixed bonus content, and

563
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with another episode of War

564
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: on Drugs. Until then, thank you for listening. Executive producers

565
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: for War on Drugs are Jason Flam and Kevin Wordis.

566
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: Senior producer is Michael Epstein, Editing by Nick Massetti and

567
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: Michael Epstein, Associate producer and mix and mastering by Nick Massetti.

568
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: Additional production by Jeff Clivern and Anna mcinteam. We should

569
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: have followed the show on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at

570
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: Lava for Good. You could follow Greg on Twitter at

571
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: Greg Glode. You could follow Clayton English on Instagram at

572
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: Clayton English. The War on Drugs is a production of

573
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one.

574
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Clayton English, and I'm Greg Glode, and

575
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the War on Drugs podcast m