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Speaker 1: When my old partner and I Bailey were at the

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Speaker 1: DA's office. We were tasked once with logging in all

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Speaker 1: the items that had been seized from an underground sex

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Speaker 1: shop where they hosted different parties and also allowed people

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Speaker 1: to go shopping.

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Speaker 2: Numerous items were still in their.

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Speaker 1: Packaging, but a lot of them were not a lot

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Speaker 1: of them were this loose and out, and they had

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Speaker 1: gathered them off tables and things of that nature. So

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Speaker 1: when it came time to log them in, some of

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Speaker 1: the items I knew and some of the items I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't even sure what they were used for or

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Speaker 1: who would use them. So finally Bailey was getting tired

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Speaker 1: of me asking her what is this?

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Speaker 2: What is that? And she said how old are you?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: How have you lived up.

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Speaker 1: To adulthood and don't know some of these items? So

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Speaker 1: she took over the login because again I had no

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Speaker 1: idea what is going on with the Long Island serial killer.

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Speaker 1: If y'all are just finding us, I want you to

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Speaker 1: know we have covered the Long Island serial killer case

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Speaker 1: since it broke. We have had more than one expert

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Speaker 1: panel already weigh in on this case tonight.

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Speaker 2: The reason we wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: This particular episode with these two experts is because new

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Speaker 1: information has come forward that I believe is going to

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Speaker 1: prove critical. There are new witnesses. I cannot overstate how important,

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Speaker 1: how vital, how critical additional witnesses are going to be

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Speaker 1: to this case. Many of you have probably seen the

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Speaker 1: press conference that Attorney John Ray did with the police

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Speaker 1: mensioner by his side, when he broke down what one

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Speaker 1: new witness has come forward and said about one of

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Speaker 1: the victims being at the home of the accused serial killer,

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Speaker 1: Rex Huberman. But John Ray tonight is going to tell

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Speaker 1: you other victims have come forward, Other witnesses have come forward,

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Speaker 1: there are affidavits that have been signed. It is so

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Speaker 1: important to hear what he has to say tonight because

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Speaker 1: this is an update that I believe the information that

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Speaker 1: he has tonight could change the trajectory of this investigation.

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Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert was only twenty three years old when she

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Speaker 1: went missing May first, twenty ten. Her remains were discovered

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Speaker 1: December of twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: Now, law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Originally believes that her death was an accident. The search

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Speaker 1: for her led law enforcement to recover more victims. Four

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Speaker 1: additional victims that had all been wrapped in camouflage burr

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Speaker 1: lap and discarded along a desolate beach off the Parkway

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Speaker 1: headed to Gilgo. Without Shannon Gilbert, there would be no

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Speaker 1: case today, there would be no arrest, and there would.

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Speaker 2: Be no pending trial.

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Speaker 1: One of the victims that was recovered because of Shannon

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Speaker 1: Gilbert was Jane Doe number seven, Karen Vigatta now Karen

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Speaker 1: Vigatta's dismembered remains were found on Fire Island. She had

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Speaker 1: just called her dad to wish him a happy Birthday

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Speaker 1: February fourteenth, nineteen ninety six, and she was never heard

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Speaker 1: from again. Two months after the Valentine's Day call, on

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Speaker 1: April the twentieth, Vigatta's legs were found in a plastic bag.

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Speaker 1: Her skull was found on April the eleventh, twenty eleventh,

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Speaker 1: near the partial dismembered remains of Jane Doe number three

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Speaker 1: aka Peaches. Because of Shannon Gilbert, we're now able to

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Speaker 1: make connections, We're able to see patterns. Evidence was able

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Speaker 1: to be put together in a manner that led to

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Speaker 1: the arrest of Rex Cheberman. Tonight, we have two incredible

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Speaker 1: guests with us.

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Speaker 2: The first one, y'all know her.

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Speaker 1: You adore Lisa Rabakov, polygraph expert and also a lifelong

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Speaker 1: Long Island resident. Lisa, let's start with you. I've been

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Speaker 1: to Long Island recently. I went by the home of

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Speaker 1: Rex Chieberman. What is the vibe right now in your opinion?

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Speaker 4: In my opinion, I feel the vibe is pretty quiet.

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Speaker 4: And that being said, I feel the most recent activity

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Speaker 4: was when the press conference that John had recently, which

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Speaker 4: we're going to be divulging into more on this podcast

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Speaker 4: episode today, that unless something comes up pertaining to evidence,

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Speaker 4: possible additional discussions of additional victims in addition to possible

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Speaker 4: discovery that does get made public, the morale is overall.

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Speaker 4: We know what's going on, we understand that this is

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Speaker 4: the case, and now everyone is just sitting and waiting

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Speaker 4: on additional facts and more information to come out. So

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Speaker 4: it does kind of come in waves pertaining to attention

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Speaker 4: to the matter. I do personally believe that more individuals

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Speaker 4: residing on Long Island should be paying a lot more

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Speaker 4: close attention due to the nature of information that has

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Speaker 4: been released by John and his team and the affidavits

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Speaker 4: that again we're going to be discussing today, and.

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Speaker 1: You know, You bring up a great point because when

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Speaker 1: all this first went down, of course, the entire neighborhood

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Speaker 1: was just swarmed with law enforcement, and then of course

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Speaker 1: the onlookers and then the people that do what they

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Speaker 1: call true crime tourism. But when I was there, I mean,

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Speaker 1: people were putting out decorations for a Memorial Day. They

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Speaker 1: were celebrating, they were you know, kids were playing soccer,

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Speaker 1: people were grilling out. I mean I was able to

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Speaker 1: go right up to the house. I saw his son

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Speaker 1: walking down the sidewalk. I mean, it was not in

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Speaker 1: any way which you would have Well, let me say

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Speaker 1: it this way. It was not what I had anticipated

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Speaker 1: before I got there. But since the arrest on July fourteenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, I'll tell you one of the most

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Speaker 1: incredible things that I have personally heard and watched, and

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Speaker 1: that is John Ray. Our second guest, y'all are going

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Speaker 1: to be so excited. Attorney John Ray. Now, y'all, he

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Speaker 1: has spent forty one years as a litigator. He's also

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Speaker 1: a lacrosse goalie. I want to talk to him about.

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Speaker 2: That a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And you know that right now he represents Shannon Gilbert's family.

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Speaker 1: When he did a press conference along with Commissioner Harrison.

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Speaker 1: He said something so important to me and just vital.

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Speaker 1: If you do not feel comfortable going to the police,

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Speaker 1: contact me. I will keep you, you know, shielded. I

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Speaker 1: will make sure nobody gets your name.

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Speaker 2: I will believe you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he gave victims not just a safe space,

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Speaker 1: but let them know before they made any phone call

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Speaker 1: at all, that he was going to be there and

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Speaker 1: maintain their privacy. So I just thought that was so powerful. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, John Ray, welcome to Zone seven. And I

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Speaker 1: just appreciate you. And I'm going to let you talk

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Speaker 1: about how you got involved with the case and how

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Speaker 1: you have navigated up until this point. How did the family,

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Speaker 1: the Gilbert family get in touch with you.

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Speaker 3: Mary Gilbert was the mother of Shinning. After Shannon's bones

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Speaker 3: had been discovered in the marsh in Oak Beach, she

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Speaker 3: had been working with a reporter from the Daily News,

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Speaker 3: the New York Daily News, and his name was Steve Barcelo.

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Speaker 3: He was a photographer as well and did reporting on

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Speaker 3: Long Island and also a native of ice Lip and

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Speaker 3: very involved in the case which had developed. You know,

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Speaker 3: all the bodies had been found and Steve had done

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Speaker 3: a lot of legwork in the matter as a reporter.

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Speaker 3: He got in touch with me because I was representing

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Speaker 3: a family where a murderer killed five of them in

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Speaker 3: a pharmacy in Suffolk County, just assassinated them when he

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Speaker 3: was an oxy cotone addict, and one of them, the

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Speaker 3: women who was shot dead, she had two children who

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Speaker 3: could not speak for themselves at the sentencing of this

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Speaker 3: fellow who shot her and named Laffer and so Jamie's

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Speaker 3: children needed a lawyer, and the family hired me to

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Speaker 3: speak on their behalf or on the children's behalf at

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Speaker 3: the sentencing of Laugher and his wife. I approached that

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Speaker 3: channeling the little girls rather than speak like a lawyer,

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Speaker 3: you know, just speechifying. I decided to become the two

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Speaker 3: little girls and I spoke and how they would have

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Speaker 3: felt and what they thought. And it worked out. You know,

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Speaker 3: it was a good tactic. It seemed to work. So Barcelo,

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Speaker 3: who was sitting in the jury box with other members

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Speaker 3: of the press for that murder, then came out afterwards.

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Speaker 3: He knew me, I knew him, and said, can you

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Speaker 3: help out this lady Mary Gilbert, Because the Suffolk County

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Speaker 3: Police Department have made a mess of this investigation, and

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Speaker 3: something's wrong, So can you talk to her? And I did.

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Speaker 3: I met with her and Steve Barcelo in a bar

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Speaker 3: restaurant in Iceland, and I stepped into the case by

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Speaker 3: calling a press conference at Oak Beach in which we

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Speaker 3: and Mary called for the Suffolk County Police Department to

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Speaker 3: step out of the case and for the federal authorities

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Speaker 3: to step into it. We sent a letter to the

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Speaker 3: US Attorney, we held the press conference, and that was

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Speaker 3: to be the end of my role. But it wasn't,

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Speaker 3: because the reaction to that was that the a detective

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Speaker 3: for the Homicide Bureau in Suffolk County, wrote me a

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Speaker 3: letter a few days later attacking my press conference statements

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Speaker 3: and telling me how great was the Suffolk County Police

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Speaker 3: investigation and how thorough and so forth, and how they

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Speaker 3: had all this help from the FBI and others, saying

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Speaker 3: that basically I didn't or what I was talking about,

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Speaker 3: and then doing something quite unique, which was to reveal

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Speaker 3: what he said he heard on the nine to one

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Speaker 3: one tape of Shaddan Gilbert, the twenty three minute tape

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Speaker 3: you know, which we get later on many years later.

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Speaker 3: So he made a statement about what they said. He said,

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Speaker 3: nobody was upset, Shannon was not in any danger. Nobody

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Speaker 3: expressed any danger. Everybody was calm at all times on

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Speaker 3: that tape. And he personally attested to that because he

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Speaker 3: heard it. And he put that letter to me personally

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Speaker 3: for reasons I could never understand, because I was merely

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Speaker 3: a private person, private lawyer who had no legal standing

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Speaker 3: in the case that point, so he had no reason

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Speaker 3: to do that, it seemed god. And then he sent

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Speaker 3: it to me on Police Union stationary, not on the

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Speaker 3: county stationary, which was also a passing strange for a

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Speaker 3: died in the wool detective who told the line in

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Speaker 3: order to work for that bureaucracy and then to step

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Speaker 3: out of line and reveal evidence during the investigation made

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Speaker 3: no sense at all to me. Something was really wrong.

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Speaker 3: Just a few days later, Chief James Burke was now

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Speaker 3: the chief of police. Before that, he had been the

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Speaker 3: de facto leader of the investigation because he was the

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Speaker 3: chief of detectives for the District Attorney's office, who were

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Speaker 3: also parallel conducting the investigation, so he was in on

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Speaker 3: it already. Now he comes in and within a day

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Speaker 3: or two or so after he's in. That letter sent

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Speaker 3: to me was published by the police department in newsday

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Speaker 3: and in you know, in a big black box and

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Speaker 3: with one or two sentences taken out. So it became

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Speaker 3: their official narrative and remained that up until now that

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Speaker 3: narrative was false, that statements contained in it were directly wrong.

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Speaker 3: They were lies, and I didn't know that yet. So

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Speaker 3: now I'd come into the case. You know, my ego

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Speaker 3: was pricked because he's attacking me personally, and you know,

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Speaker 3: so don't do that. It's not a good idea. You

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Speaker 3: poke people who like to fight, they fight.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, that's not a good idea.

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Speaker 1: I just have to say one thing a now, when

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Speaker 1: one call that lasts for twenty three minutes, there's no

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Speaker 1: way she thought she was okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you hear it, you know that everybody was

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Speaker 3: not calm. That there was an argument. It was a

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Speaker 3: big fight. There was a scuffle in or about the

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Speaker 3: house of Joe Brewer, the John. You know that there

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Speaker 3: were people who were raising their voices. You could hear

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Speaker 3: Shannon say right at the very beginning of the tape,

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Speaker 3: she says, someone is after me. Someone is after me

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Speaker 3: three times, and then later on. She says, they're trying

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Speaker 3: to kill me. They're trying to kill me, and there's

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Speaker 3: other things like that which her Listen whole the whole

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Speaker 3: tape is filled with her fear, and it's filled with anxiety,

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Speaker 3: and it's filled with discord and anger. And then she

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Speaker 3: eventually runs. You could hear her run and then you

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Speaker 3: hear this blood curdling, lengthy scream that she makes, and

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Speaker 3: you could hear the voice of a man as well

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Speaker 3: in that scream right there. And then she runs again,

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Speaker 3: knocks on doors, and disappears. So it was completely contrary

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Speaker 3: to what this cup told me and told the public,

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Speaker 3: and they used that claim to support their belief that, look,

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Speaker 3: only somebody that's a little bit out of their mind

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Speaker 3: would have run when they were calm at all times,

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Speaker 3: and nothing was, no threats were being made, and her

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Speaker 3: safety was not in danger. She suddenly runs. She must

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Speaker 3: have therefore run into the marsh where she's ultimately found.

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Speaker 3: She had to get there somehow, and of course she

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Speaker 3: was crazed. So if she was crazed, and we know

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Speaker 3: that because she was running away from a perfectly calm,

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Speaker 3: nice situation, well then she ran into the Martian died

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Speaker 3: from natural causes. That was their absurd selling story that

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Speaker 3: you know, they were trying to pedal to the public.

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Speaker 3: And of course it works if nobody knows about what's

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Speaker 3: really on the tapes. When you hear what's on the tapes.

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Speaker 3: None of that was true, and she ran because she

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Speaker 3: really was in severe fear and danger. Why for the

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Speaker 3: very good reason that someone is after me? Someone and

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Speaker 3: then they were trying to kill her, They trying to

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Speaker 3: kill her. If she has that kind of fear, does

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Speaker 3: it surprise you that she runs? And if they weren't

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Speaker 3: trying to kill her, and if there was no reason

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Speaker 3: to be scared, why the confrontation and the terrible, blood

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Speaker 3: curdling scream as she escapes.

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Speaker 2: For me, No dispatcher No.

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Speaker 1: Nine to one one operator is going to stay on

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Speaker 1: the phone for twenty three minutes with somebody they don't believe.

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Speaker 1: So even if you hadn't heard it, if you know

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Speaker 1: it lasted that long, there has to be some credibility

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Speaker 1: to it because of the actions that were taken by

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Speaker 1: the operator alone. So here's the other thing, Lisa, I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you, if you are their own Long

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Speaker 1: Island and this new information has come in where we

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Speaker 1: have one victim, four victims, seven victims, eleven victims, and

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Speaker 1: now this nine one one take comes out. What is

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Speaker 1: the overall sense now of what is going on in

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Speaker 1: this investigation?

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Speaker 4: To be frank that no one really knows their head

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Speaker 4: from their ass that there is just so much out

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Speaker 4: there obviously that needs to be gone through. But for me,

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Speaker 4: as a private investigator and a polygraph examiner, it really

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Speaker 4: comes down to the credibility. Whether it's witnesses that are

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Speaker 4: coming forward and giving statements as to what experiences that

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Speaker 4: they've seen, heard or dealt with, It comes down to

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Speaker 4: the credibility of even just the investigators. I don't want

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Speaker 4: to shoot fault on the department, but we also I

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Speaker 4: think maybe you need to look at track records of

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Speaker 4: some of the officers involved in the investigations as well

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Speaker 4: as some of the detectives, make sure that there isn't

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Speaker 4: a history or pattern of any possible tampering with other investigations.

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Speaker 4: Maybe this is just an additional case to their repertoire.

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Speaker 4: And even looking at the track record afterwards, if we

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Speaker 4: have an officer and or an agent of the department

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Speaker 4: that maybe started their career with this case, has there

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Speaker 4: been a history since this case of any negative findings.

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Speaker 4: And I'm definitely not the one to be anti law

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Speaker 4: enforcement at all, because I will bleed blue as a

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Speaker 4: civilian one hundred percent due to the fact that I

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Speaker 4: work with a lot of agencies around just not New

284
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Speaker 4: York and Long Island, but across the country. But I

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Speaker 4: think it does come down to credibility being a huge thing,

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Speaker 4: especially with regards to witnesses. In this case, a lot

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Speaker 4: of people may think that they see something, a lot

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00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,639
Speaker 4: of people think that they may have heard something. But

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Speaker 4: it comes down to just addressing that the right information

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Speaker 4: is being put out there at the most appropriate times.

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Speaker 4: And in this situation, it's always about making sure that

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Speaker 4: you follow up with the intel that you're given. Whether

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Speaker 4: it's a phone call and you think that the guy

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Speaker 4: could be crazy, still follow it up anyway, because maybe

295
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Speaker 4: the person's not crazy. So every stone, every stone has

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Speaker 4: to be unturned, every stick has to be picked up,

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Speaker 4: everything does need to be looked at. And this is

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Speaker 4: not an investigation where any agency, whether it's state, local,

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Speaker 4: or federal, can go ahead and turn a blind eye on.

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Speaker 1: And you know, once the arrest was made, his stature

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Speaker 1: is going to set him apart. If you met him,

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Speaker 1: you would remember that if he frightened you, or threatened you,

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Speaker 1: or attempted to harm you, you would know that he

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Speaker 1: would be such a figure, just this gigantic man, that

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to forget that. And I think

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Speaker 1: one thing that John Ray done very well is when

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Speaker 1: these folks are coming forward, he doesn't just run and

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Speaker 1: immediately do a press conference. He talks to them for

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Speaker 1: three hours, then he talks to them for another three hours,

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Speaker 1: then he talks to them for another three hours, then

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Speaker 1: he hands them off to Commissioner Harrison where they vet

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Speaker 1: them as well. Lisa, you've even offered if anybody feels

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Speaker 1: like they want a polygraph, to take that polygraph to

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Speaker 1: the police or to John Ray before to say hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm telling the truth and I want to prove it

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you've made that offer.

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Speaker 4: I've actually made the offer directly to the Commissioner himself

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Speaker 4: as well as the deputy police Commissioner. And I've even

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Speaker 4: offered the services to the guards too. And someone does

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Speaker 4: not feel comfortable taking an examination or speaking with someone

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Speaker 4: that is a direct employee of the agency that as

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Speaker 4: either a subcontractor or a private civilian. I would even

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Speaker 4: offer to donate my time to go ahead and do

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Speaker 4: these examinations and then turn over the work product to

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Speaker 4: the necess very people, just so that it's completely unbiased

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Speaker 4: and there can be a forbunnable response in reaction to

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Speaker 4: the results of the exam.

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Speaker 1: And I just want to again state very clearly that

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Speaker 1: Commissioner Harrison, and John Ray and now Lisa Rabakov, all

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Speaker 1: three have offered to keep confidentiality to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you know you've got a safe place. So I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that again. So John, let's talk about some of the

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Speaker 1: new information that you got. Four witnesses have come forward

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Speaker 1: and two of them with you have signed AFFI davits.

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Speaker 1: And you feel like at this point the information that

337
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Speaker 1: you have is going to directly link Rex Huberman to

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Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert and Karen Ergatta.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's what the witnesses do in their AFFI davits.

340
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Speaker 3: The two that gave AffA Davids. The other two link

341
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Speaker 3: Quierman with sex workers in a serial way, and one

342
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 3: of them links Hoyman to other misbehaviors of Horman. And

343
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Speaker 3: I use that word very mildly for his terrorizing behavior

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Speaker 3: that he actually engaged in. And then since the press conference,

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Speaker 3: we've had more Naturally, we had more people call with

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Speaker 3: more evidence. Some people call who have, you know, questionable

347
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 3: evidence and potentially questionable credibility, and others who have credibility.

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Speaker 3: And so I've gotten more, I've gotten more affidavits, and

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Speaker 3: I've got more evidence, and I'm continuing to get that

350
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Speaker 3: pretty much on almost a daily basis. The confidentiality is

351
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Speaker 3: protected until they tell me otherwise, and I don't turn

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Speaker 3: the affidavits over to the police without their permission. It

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Speaker 3: is I who drafts the affidavits after carefully vetting these

354
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Speaker 3: people for hours and hours, and then it takes a

355
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Speaker 3: long time to draft the affidavit, present it to them,

356
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Speaker 3: trying to make sure that it reflects accurately the words

357
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 3: they spoke, and then they go over it, make corrections,

358
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Speaker 3: we fix it, and then they we go back to them.

359
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 3: I go back to them, and they signed the final draft.

360
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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of that goes into it. Keep

361
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Speaker 3: in mind that these people did not want their names

362
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Speaker 3: out there. They don't have the ulterior motive of fame

363
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 3: reed making money on their testimony or their claims, so John.

364
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Speaker 1: I know that you are a lacrosse goalie, and my

365
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: son is also a lacrosse goalie. He plays at the

366
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 1: University of Alabama. So this is what I say to him. Sometimes,

367
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Speaker 1: especially early on in his career, he would get so

368
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Speaker 1: frustrated if he let one goalie in right and he

369
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: just felt he felt like, you know, that whole world

370
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Speaker 1: was on his shoulders. Well, I told her once, I said, listen,

371
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: think about the reality of what you're doing. In order

372
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Speaker 1: for somebody to make it all the way down that field,

373
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Speaker 1: and nobody stop them, Nobody get the ball from them,

374
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Speaker 1: Nobody knocked the ball out of their net, and nobody

375
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Speaker 1: on the defense blocks them, stops them, turns that ball over.

376
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Speaker 1: Every single person has failed. You're the last shot. That

377
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Speaker 1: is how I see you with Shannon Gilbert. You're her

378
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Speaker 1: last shot.

379
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Speaker 3: Well maybe that's true. I hope it isn't.

380
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Speaker 4: You know.

381
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: We have a new team. So playing for the old team,

382
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: as we know, didn't work well. They didn't let players

383
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Speaker 3: on the team. The police is well who I am

384
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Speaker 3: referring to. But now we have this task force and

385
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 3: one of the key players was Rodney Harrison, who opened

386
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 3: the door to not only the release of the tapes

387
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: that I was not allowed to share with the public

388
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: by the court order. But also to these new and

389
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 3: creative techniques of going to use people such as such

390
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: as I to continue to work on the investigation of

391
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 3: these matters. And you know, Rodney and I held the

392
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 3: press conference that joined press conference which announced that to

393
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Speaker 3: the public. So it opened the door to a lot

394
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Speaker 3: more information, many more people coming forward, more more evidence

395
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 3: that we've had, and we, you know, dutifully hopefully can

396
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: share it with the police who are the investigative body

397
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 3: of the task force. And I've done that with the

398
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 3: permission of the people who speak to me. In that sense,

399
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, I'm a goalie, but you know, you

400
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 3: can be the best goalie in the world. And I've

401
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 3: played now I'm going into my fifty eighth year of playing,

402
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 3: and you can still be the best goalie in the world.

403
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 3: And if the team, you know, the defense isn't there

404
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 3: and the midies don't play well, they're going to score.

405
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 3: No matter how good you are, they are going to score.

406
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: And in the sense the adversary here who is rex

407
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: Horiman and his cohorts and whoever else is involved in

408
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 3: these things, which is widespread, They're going to score if

409
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 3: we don't have a creative approach, an open form to

410
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: gathering this information. It's that simple.

411
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 4: I just had a question for John talking about teamwork

412
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 4: and obviously making sure that we have adequate resources to

413
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 4: support not only John's efforts, but just the to the investigation. John,

414
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: my question for you is where do you see the

415
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 4: investigation going? Knowing with the departure soon to be of

416
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 4: Commissioner Harrison and Deputy Police Commissioner Anthony Carter departing, do

417
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 4: you think that we'll still have meaning just me is

418
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 4: just as an investigator overall but obviously not tied to

419
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 4: the case, but just with your experience working this case,

420
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 4: do you think that you'll still have the backing of

421
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 4: the department as well as the task force as a whole.

422
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I don't really know. I wish I

423
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: could answer you easily, but I don't know. You know,

424
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 3: Rodney opened the door. I don't know how many people

425
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: resisted him within the department. There had to have been

426
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: some who resisted him, for sure. You know, will that

427
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: element dominate now through a new commissioner? I can't answer it.

428
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it won't stop me.

429
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: I'll still go John for me.

430
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: The witness that you talked about, that came for that

431
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: went to the Humman House for the party and then

432
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: tied in an NYPD officer, and then tied in you know,

433
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: the victim, and exactly what she saw, who was there,

434
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: what happened, and then when she saw the photograph of

435
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: for god knew that.

436
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: Was the girl that had been with them, and was

437
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: very clear.

438
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: A lot of that checked out for me what I

439
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: had already believed.

440
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: And I will say it again here.

441
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: I've said it before, but there is no way his

442
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: wife had zero understanding or knowledge of at least some

443
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: of his activities I'll call them, in order for her

444
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 1: to process all of this. If somebody were to come

445
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: to me and tell me that my husband was even

446
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: having just an affair, I wouldn't believe it. I couldn't

447
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: let myself even see maybe some tons of it. But

448
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: if you were to come to me and tell me

449
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: that he, you know, had been murdering people and leaving

450
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: them down the street from my home, it would take

451
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: me more than six days to believe that.

452
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: I hear you loud and clear. That's one of the

453
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 3: many different circumstantial elements, if not evidenced themselves, of that

454
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 3: points toward missus Ellurope and her involvement in the sexual

455
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 3: behavior of Rex Horman, and at least in that you know,

456
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 3: take into account this as well, they're married for twenty

457
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 3: seven years. Not only do I have witnesses who say

458
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: that he was regularly being serviced by sex workers in

459
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: the basement of his home over the course of time,

460
00:28:53,640 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: and several of them serially so, but also taking account

461
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: that Sheriff Toulon's searches of sex workers in the jail

462
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 3: have produced the same information or similar information, you know

463
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: that he was he was really he being Kreman, was

464
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: really completely addicted to to sex workers and cost him

465
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: a ton of money as well. So you have that

466
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: kind of evidence that's there. And then you have the

467
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 3: witnesses that have come forward and sign Affter Davids to

468
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: this effect. And I have others who have not signed

469
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 3: after Davids, but have indicated, one who indicated Herriman in

470
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: her knowledge, was serviced at least twenty times, and there

471
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: were other girls lined up in some cases to service him,

472
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: all in that teeny weeny house. And now that brings

473
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: you to the teeny weeny house issue. It's thirteen hundred

474
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: and forty three square feet. You know, that's the size

475
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: for many people of a bungalow. If that it sits

476
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: on a piece of land which is zero point one

477
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 3: sixth of an acre, so it's a little over a

478
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: tenth of an acre, So it's hedged in on two

479
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: sides coming off the street by other people's properties, So

480
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: it's squeezed into this teeny space physically, and it squeezed

481
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: itself into its own physical space. So if the wife

482
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: is up on the main floor when any of these

483
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 3: things are going on over the course of all those years,

484
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: he's downstairs. You mean to tell me, in that tiny

485
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: little space she never experienced any of these girls coming

486
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: and going and had nothing to say about it. And

487
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: then we know that the girls say they would enter

488
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: by walking up the side of the house and going

489
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: around the back of the house to get in. So

490
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: how would they get by If you look at that

491
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: house and see the space, it's almost no space at all.

492
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 3: The words, how could they not have been noticed? You

493
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: know there are windows on the house, and this is

494
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: the age of cell phones and computers, and you mean

495
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 3: to say she had no knowledge of the whereabouts of

496
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: her husband during all these trysts. It's an absurdity, in

497
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: other words, to suggest that she had no knowledge.

498
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: And again I've been to the house. There's nowhere to

499
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: park that driveway. Maybe you could get three cars, maybe

500
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: one car if that's parked in the yard. And then

501
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: there's houses so close together, there's other, you know, driveways

502
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: where you would obstruct somebody else if you were to

503
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: park eight cars out there.

504
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: Correct, And it's so tiny a place that no reasonable

505
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: person can believe that someone in that house would not

506
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: have knowledge in some respects of what was going on

507
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: in the basement of that house. It just can't be

508
00:31:59,480 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: connect me.

509
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: Well, I've also said this several times and I'm going

510
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: to say it again. There's no such thing as a

511
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: part time serial killer. There's no such thing as a

512
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: part time rapist or any type of predator. This is

513
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: what they do full time. They're either driving around, stalking

514
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: for victims, their on line looking for victims, contacting these

515
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: sex workers, trying to get meetings with them. I mean,

516
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: he had seven cell phones. He had parties at his

517
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: house that we now have confirmed through witnesses. So this

518
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: is something again he did all the time. He could

519
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: not hide it, he didn't try to hide it.

520
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 3: Well, not only that, but you know, any claim and

521
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: this is what you just claim you did here from many,

522
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: many people who were naive, including in the media, the

523
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: claim that she's an abused woman, and you know, she

524
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: couldn't do anything about it, she had no control, and

525
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: so we should feel as badly for her as we

526
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: do for the victims. Well, no, the victims are dead.

527
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 3: She's alive. And well, her whole behavior from the first

528
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: time she was confronted by the press at her or

529
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: even greeted by the press at her home, and since then,

530
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 3: right up until now, and the history of her behavior

531
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: that we now know about all suggests just the opposite

532
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 3: of somebody who was abused. And indeed, one of the

533
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: witnesses that I have suggests that she was in charge

534
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: in that house. She was the one who called the

535
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 3: shots in that house. And surely when you see her

536
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: greeting to the press was nasty right away, and she

537
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: gave them the finger. Every time anybody spoke to her,

538
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: she gave them the finger, not once, but several times.

539
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: You know, this is a woman who said, well some

540
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 3: words to the effect that, well, it'll be what it'll be.

541
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 3: It is what it is as to her husband's behavior,

542
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: it is what it is. Really, that's what you say,

543
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 3: you know, when you learn for the first time that

544
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 3: he's a murderer. Come on, who says that? You know? So,

545
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 3: does that sound like somebody who's being abused shrugging off

546
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: this thing as I don't think so. And we know

547
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 3: that she traveled all around the country and to Iceland

548
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 3: right in her time, going all to these comm con

549
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: conventions in various parts of the country, and we even

550
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 3: have exchanges that she made over her email back in

551
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: twenty ten times around then she's perfectly happy lady, going

552
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: back and forth and chatting up her friends. It doesn't

553
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 3: sound like an abused person to me. And there's not

554
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: a sintilla of evidence other than surmise, which is not

555
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: evidence that somehow she was an abused woman. You know,

556
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: I've just had another witness come forward that gives me

557
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: information that's just the opposite. You know, how can anybody

558
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 3: ignore that she had knowledge of the sexual perversions in

559
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: which her husband engaged over all this time? I just

560
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: don't buy it. She's out pedaling her memoirs to write

561
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 3: a book and to have a movie. She's peddling her

562
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 3: movie rights through her lawyer as we speak. She may

563
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: already have solidified a I'm told a seven figured deal.

564
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: Does that sound to you like a woman who's abused.

565
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 3: You also know that within not only does she right away,

566
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: you know, file for divorce, she within days of that

567
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 3: filing of the divorce. Within weeks, maybe we could say

568
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: she's already taking steps to transfer the properties that he

569
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 3: owns to herself. So, for example, on September twenty second,

570
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 3: the deed to her house was signed by Hoyman over

571
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 3: to her one for quote unquote a nominal amount which

572
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 3: could be a dollar, and it's now solely in her name.

573
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 3: That is presumptively a fraud on creditors. That given the

574
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: knowledge that we have that he is a potential debtor

575
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: and an actual debtor to many many people, you can't

576
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 3: just transfer property to defraud the creditors and say, Haha, look,

577
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: my wife's got it too bad on you. That transfer

578
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: triggers should trigger the foreclosure on that house of Lian's

579
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 3: that the federal government has and the state government has

580
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: for tax purposes. But also there are other creditors in

581
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: the wings. What about the victims to their families of

582
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 3: those that we know he murdered their creditors, and this

583
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 3: is a transferrent of creditors. That's These are the kind

584
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: of people we're dealing with. They are ruthless, ferocious, ugly people.

585
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: Well, I have said on more than one occasion that

586
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: I think this case is deeper and wider, and uglier

587
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: and more twisted than people think.

588
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 4: I don't think there's a net big enough at this

589
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 4: point that's ever been created to be able to cast

590
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 4: the characters and the typical who, what, whear, why and

591
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 4: whens to really bring this whole thing together, because every

592
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 4: time one stone gets unturned, there's something else underneath a

593
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 4: new one. So it's going to be an ongoing investigative process,

594
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 4: and the key thing is is making sure that the

595
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 4: appropriate resources are allocated and the most appropriate trained professionals,

596
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: their time and their efforts are allocated towards this investigation.

597
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's grown scope As to the circumstances in which

598
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 3: the atmosphere either in which Hoyman operated for all these

599
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: years with impunity, the circumstances of that are broad. They

600
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 3: require broad searches and broad work, and I honestly don't

601
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 3: think I think the task force is going to necessarily

602
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 3: be focused on the murders they can prove and in

603
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: confirming and building up that proof and other circumstances that

604
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: they are aware of, actually but not the broader circumstances

605
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 3: that we're chatting about tonight. So they may not have

606
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 3: the resources to do that. So a lot of that

607
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: kind of information showing you the atmosphere in which they work,

608
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: to the Hoyman and whoever else, it's going to go

609
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: by the boards. You might say, well, so what because

610
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: it doesn't do anything. Well, you know, collectively knowing the

611
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 3: circumstances knowledge is always good. But collectively that kind of knowledge,

612
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: if material, can be material to the proof of the

613
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: case in the long run. So it would be a

614
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: shame if all this kind of information which is out there,

615
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: some of it being garnered by me and helping me

616
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: maybe by others, for all I know, can be you know,

617
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 3: you just won't be ignored.

618
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: Well, Lisa Rabaikoff and John Ray, I cannot thank you

619
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: enough for being with us and putting a spotlight on

620
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 1: this case unlike we have heard before.

621
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: Thank you both so much.

622
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: And I'm going to end Zone seven the way that

623
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 1: I always do with a quote I hate most prostitutes.

624
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: I didn't even want to pay them for sex. Also

625
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: picked up prostitutes as victims because they were easy to

626
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: pick up without even being noticed. I knew they wouldn't

627
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: be reported missing right away, and might never be reported.

628
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: Missing at all. Gary Ridgway.

629
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.

630
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 4: The tape, read the detecta