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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you From House top

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I am honestly surprised

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Speaker 1: that it has taken us this long to talk about

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Speaker 1: office romance. I know, I mean it ties in so

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Speaker 1: many different aspects of things we talk about, gender, love, sex, romance, age,

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Speaker 1: group workplace. Well, first of all, Caroline, I gotta ask.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure listeners are wondering, have you ever gotten involved

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Speaker 1: with an office romance? I have not. No, I have not. Um,

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Speaker 1: I do know plenty of people that who have. And

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Speaker 1: when I say that, I just mean when I worked

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Speaker 1: at the newspaper, pretty much everybody was married, we're dating

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Speaker 1: or each other? Mean, yes, yes, that that's a key

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Speaker 1: component of the discussion we're having today. No, but I

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Speaker 1: have now for um, I've never dated anybody at work.

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Speaker 1: H The closest I've gotten to dipping my pen in

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Speaker 1: the company. So college is when I was in high school,

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Speaker 1: I was a counselor at a day camp and I

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Speaker 1: ended up kissing another counselor. It was after the camp

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Speaker 1: was over, so we weren't you know, it wasn't distracting

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Speaker 1: this from our camp duties. Okay, well, I mean, jeez, Christma,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to go back that far, I have

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Speaker 1: to amend my statement. Okay, Well, Now, I worked in

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Speaker 1: a when I was when I was a teenager, I

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Speaker 1: worked in a in a kitchen at a clubhouse at

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Speaker 1: this club place, uh country club type place, and and

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Speaker 1: I was a a little waitress, little teen waitress, and

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Speaker 1: I was just absolutely smitten with one of the chore boys,

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Speaker 1: and y'all there was a little bit of teen conodling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in my adult life, I've ever got involved with an

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Speaker 1: office romance. Although for fans of how stuff works, I

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Speaker 1: will say, and I'm not going to name names, even

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Speaker 1: though it's all happy news, but I do know for

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Speaker 1: a fact that there are at least three marriages that

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Speaker 1: I know of that have come out of this house

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Speaker 1: stuff works office. Do any of them still work here?

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to name names, but but yeah, so

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Speaker 1: for people our age, though, Caroline, for the millennial generation,

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Speaker 1: this idea of office romance is pretty accepted, even though

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Speaker 1: I feel like all of the advice that I heard

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Speaker 1: growing up was don't do it, steering were of workplace romance,

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Speaker 1: But In fact, according to a poll conducted by Workplace Options,

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Speaker 1: of eight year old said that they would date a coworker.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge chunk, that's not insignificant. And I think

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Speaker 1: more interestingly said they would date a boss, versus just

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Speaker 1: twelve percent of older workers who said they were who

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Speaker 1: said they would. Excuse me. But there's also the aspect

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Speaker 1: of like how it's all viewed. Of Millennials see workplace

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Speaker 1: romance as having positive effects such as improved performance and morale.

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Speaker 1: So that's not just being neutral and being like, oh

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Speaker 1: I like this person, maybe we can date. It's like

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Speaker 1: actually seeing workplace romance as a positive thing versus I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe our parents generation and older who thought

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Speaker 1: that that was a no. Now, yeah, I mean, I'd

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Speaker 1: certainly take more time with my hair in the morning

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Speaker 1: if I had a sweetheart in the cubicle next door

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Speaker 1: or something like that. Actually, speaking to The Wall Street Journal,

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Speaker 1: Janet Lever, who is a professor of sociology at California

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Speaker 1: State University, Los Angeles and a long time researcher of

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Speaker 1: these office romance dynamics, said that the office is often

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Speaker 1: cited as the number one place for us to meet

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Speaker 1: a potential partner, which considering especially the workplace today, where

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Speaker 1: I feel like the forty hour work week is pretty

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Speaker 1: much obsolete. Work now invades our lives in more ways

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Speaker 1: than ever before, And since career is so so central

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Speaker 1: to both men's and women's lives, it's like we're there

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Speaker 1: more than any other place, So why not meet somebody there? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you end up having so much in common,

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Speaker 1: But I just I wonder if it's like any more

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Speaker 1: in common for some people than just complaining about the

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Speaker 1: boss or you know, some people actually developed like really

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Speaker 1: strong connections at work because yeah, like you said, you

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Speaker 1: are spending so much time there. Yeah. And you know

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Speaker 1: who made a really special connection at their workplace at

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Speaker 1: a law office a long time ago. Barack and Michelle Obama. Really, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they first met at work. And according to a Career

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Speaker 1: Builders survey, one in five people who've had office romances

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Speaker 1: ended up marrying. That's special somebody. Yeah, so there you go. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't always end poorly, right with the office

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Speaker 1: romance thing. Um, And and it's not so uncommon too

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Speaker 1: that there is maybe a broader acceptance among millennials for

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Speaker 1: office romance, because by this point it is so deeply

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Speaker 1: permeated in our pop culture. I mean, Pam and Jim

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Speaker 1: on the Office Hello, and uh Leslie Nope, yeah exactly

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Speaker 1: Leslie and Adam Scott. Who are I think they might

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Speaker 1: be my favorite workplace couple. I'm smiling. Now you've got

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Speaker 1: a little gushy. Yeah. I didn't even know that was there. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's there's other movies like The Best of Everything from

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Speaker 1: nine and let's not forget nine to five and Night.

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Speaker 1: Well that was that was less of like a romance

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Speaker 1: and more of sexual harassment. Yeah, definitely. The tone of

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Speaker 1: office romance and pop culture has evolved from the late

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Speaker 1: eighteenth and early nineteenth century with postcards, when we first

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Speaker 1: have women coming into the office, where it's more a

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Speaker 1: warning that, oh, no, women are in the office, and

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Speaker 1: so men are going to take notice, and then there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of skirt chasing, and then you

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Speaker 1: have things like pulp fiction and Playboy pictorials and cartoons

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Speaker 1: depicting things like the sexy secretary um and then this

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Speaker 1: notion of the office wife. There's actually a movie called

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Speaker 1: The Office Wife that comes out in nineteen thirties. So

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Speaker 1: at first the notion of office Romans was more of

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Speaker 1: this office adultery really, but these days I feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Pam and Jim and Leslie Nope and Adam

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Speaker 1: Scott are examples of how it's become a lot more

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Speaker 1: normalized and also how because those women are pretty much

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Speaker 1: on par at work with the men, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more of a wholesome suite as spect to it. Right. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: as far as like real life office romances, a lot

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Speaker 1: of different companies and different generations also, as we've touched on,

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Speaker 1: have different views on it. I worked for a small

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Speaker 1: company that did not actually have a rule, hard and

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Speaker 1: fast written rule about it, but it was strongly discouraged.

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Speaker 1: Although I mean it was mostly women, but they were

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Speaker 1: like three guys in the office and the CEO was like,

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Speaker 1: don't you go praying on these females and these weak

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Speaker 1: female employees men. Yeah, And there were some articles at Kiplinger, CNN, Money,

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Speaker 1: and Ink looking into why office romances are sometimes frowned

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Speaker 1: upon by people like your boss and other business owners.

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Speaker 1: And there are two main reasons for this. There's, first

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Speaker 1: of all, something called amplification of potential liability. Essentially, you

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Speaker 1: have co workers getting involved with each other kind of

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Speaker 1: bring their personal life into the work place, and that

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Speaker 1: could set you up for lawsuits possibly down the road,

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Speaker 1: especially if it's a superior dating someone in a lower

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Speaker 1: rung who could say, after the break up or after

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Speaker 1: the relationship dissolves, maybe that person, uh, the subordinate might say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not getting good assignments anymore, this person is retaliating

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Speaker 1: against me, etcetera. And then there's a whole office gossip aspect,

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Speaker 1: right that can really derail a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of work going on. I mean, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the articles we read they would interview people, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the women, which will I mean, we'll definitely

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Speaker 1: get to the gender aspect of this, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of the women would say, you know, I would get

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Speaker 1: the side ie going down the hall because people were

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Speaker 1: talking about me because I had, you know, chosen to

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Speaker 1: date a coworker. Yeah, and that can certainly affect the

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Speaker 1: office environment, um, when you have people whispering and wondering

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Speaker 1: whether or not people are dating, possibly trading favors, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Which is why there are a number of companies that

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Speaker 1: now have it written policies barring particularly the superior subordinate

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Speaker 1: relationships to prevent things like favoritism or accusations of favoritism,

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Speaker 1: as well as retribution um. And some just have anti

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Speaker 1: fraternization policies, which is basically stuff of like don't don't

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Speaker 1: date anybody, come on, right, Well, I mean there's something

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Speaker 1: that's a little more concrete called a Cupid contract or

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Speaker 1: or something like a love contract, where companies have both

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Speaker 1: parties signed contracts saying that you're going into this relationship

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Speaker 1: you know, willingly, You're not being forced into any sort

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Speaker 1: of creepy sexual relationship with a co worker. But also

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Speaker 1: it's to protect all of you, and by all of you,

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Speaker 1: I mean you, the person you're dating, and the company,

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Speaker 1: all of you from lawsuits and any claims of you know,

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Speaker 1: like we said, favoritism or discrimination. Yeah, and there are

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Speaker 1: some HR departments that if you go to them and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: uh so and so and I are dating, they'll say okay,

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Speaker 1: but they will reserve the right to transfer one or

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Speaker 1: both positions to a different reporting line in case, especially

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Speaker 1: again if it's that superior subordinate relationship if anything starts

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Speaker 1: to get a little dicey. But most small companies have

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Speaker 1: zero policy on this. Yeah, it's a lot more common

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Speaker 1: for employers with a lot of younger employees to adopt

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Speaker 1: a neutral stance on office romance. So you've got smaller companies,

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Speaker 1: or you maybe just have up and coming companies that

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Speaker 1: have a lot of young employees and it hasn't been

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Speaker 1: implemented yet, And I mean that could be that they

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Speaker 1: don't care, or it could be that, you know, they

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Speaker 1: just haven't gotten to the point where it's become an issue.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is, though, when it comes to office romance,

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Speaker 1: the people who and this is confirmed anecdotally and from

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Speaker 1: studies and research, is that the people who tend to

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Speaker 1: bear the brunt of things like that office gossip and

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Speaker 1: those negative environmental issues is usually the women. Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The typical view of an office romance from people from

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Speaker 1: the outside, according to Peggy Drexler in AP is basically

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Speaker 1: that men are doing it for either love or to

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Speaker 1: stroke their ego, while women are doing it to get

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Speaker 1: ahead and take advantage of that situation to be promoted

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Speaker 1: or or get some better assignments. And a two thousand

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Speaker 1: nine study from the Western Journal of Communication found that

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Speaker 1: while most employees do have a negative perception of workplace romances,

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Speaker 1: that anger is more widely directed toward women. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: supporting that, there was a two thousand twelve study that

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Speaker 1: Drexler sided that was in the journal Sex Roles, which

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Speaker 1: found that, Hey, women are more likely than men to

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Speaker 1: be the targets of office gossip. And I have a

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Speaker 1: feeling that it does continually relate back to that notion

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Speaker 1: that while men might be out for ego, women are

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Speaker 1: out to climb that ladder using the the best assets.

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Speaker 1: And I'm talking about sex right their feminine wild Yes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So regardless of the reason that people are getting involved

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Speaker 1: in the office sex with bosses, executives in particular really

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Speaker 1: does happen. According to a Center for Work Life Policy study,

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Speaker 1: thirty four percent of female executives said they knew a

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Speaker 1: woman who had an affair with her boss, and pent

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Speaker 1: copped to being that woman. And even though I am

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Speaker 1: a feeling that the fift percent of female executives who

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Speaker 1: said that they were that woman who had had an

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Speaker 1: affair with a boss, I wonder how many of them

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Speaker 1: would say that they were doing it purely to get ahead.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a pervasive notion because in that

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Speaker 1: same survey it found that specifically when it comes to

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Speaker 1: assumptions about junior women having sex with senior men in organizations.

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Speaker 1: It found that sixty percent of male executives and even

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Speaker 1: more sixty of female executives expected salary hikes and favoritism

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Speaker 1: being exchanged for that sex. So I wonder if the

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Speaker 1: fact that there are maybe more female executives saying yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's probably some favoritism going on. Maybe they're speaking from

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Speaker 1: some kind of experience. Maybe it's because sometimes women judge

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Speaker 1: women even more harshly in the workplace, which is something

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Speaker 1: that we've talked about. Um. But nevertheless, it's so uh,

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Speaker 1: it's a tough thing to talk about because I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that there are some women who do it. I've had

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Speaker 1: conversations myself with younger women who have said, sure, I

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Speaker 1: would use sex to climb the career letter, to which

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Speaker 1: I said, hi, will change the subject now. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty sticky territory obviously, because I mean we mentioned gossip,

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Speaker 1: and we mentioned bad feelings and accusations of favoritism. But

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Speaker 1: it really does kind of poison the environment when people

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Speaker 1: are making assumptions about why you're doing it. Uh. From

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Speaker 1: that same Center for Work Life Policy study, sixty one

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Speaker 1: of men and seventy percent of women said that they

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Speaker 1: lose respect for a leader who gets involved in an affair.

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Speaker 1: And and when that boss, when that senior person is

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Speaker 1: a man and the junior person involved in the affair

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Speaker 1: is a woman, that can really make it difficult for

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Speaker 1: a lot of women going forward. Because I mean this

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Speaker 1: is coming from a Bloomberg piece in where they were

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Speaker 1: writing basically about how if we are junior in a company,

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Speaker 1: regardless of our gender, we need people to help us.

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Speaker 1: We need people to be mentors, to sponsor us, and

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Speaker 1: that often takes a lot of time. You're probably spending

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Speaker 1: a lot of time together, You're learning from one another. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the senior person is maybe taking you to lunch or

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Speaker 1: to dinner to get to know each other better. But

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Speaker 1: I mean a male executive might be a lot less

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Speaker 1: likely to do that if his predecessors have really mucked

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Speaker 1: it up by getting involved or just being accused of

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Speaker 1: being involved with younger women exactly. I mean, I can

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Speaker 1: imagine if he is a married man in a position,

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Speaker 1: and uh, in a leadership position, you would want to

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Speaker 1: protect yourself from negative perceptions that might come from people

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Speaker 1: just assuming that if you put a man in a

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Speaker 1: woman in a room together. I had a sexual man

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Speaker 1: and a woman in a room together. That something is

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Speaker 1: just going to have to happen. It's like we're circling

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Speaker 1: back to when Harry met Sally. At some point, Um

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Speaker 1: and I will go on the record as saying that

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Speaker 1: I in no way endorse using sex to climb the

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Speaker 1: career ladder. I think that it ultimately hurts everybody. You know,

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Speaker 1: it really never turns out. Well, that's different from say,

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Speaker 1: Pam and Jim kind of thing of like dating in

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Speaker 1: the office. Yeah, that's fine. I don't really think that

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Speaker 1: as long as you're smart about it, as long as

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Speaker 1: you are are able to separate work responsibilities from the

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Speaker 1: dating responsibilities. I think, for instance, it helps if you

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Speaker 1: or maybe in different departments, aren't working side by side

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Speaker 1: every day. Well, two of the couples, in particular at

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Speaker 1: the newspaper that I was referring to, both sets of

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Speaker 1: couples worked in the same department as each other. So

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Speaker 1: like there were two writers who were married and too

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Speaker 1: well one was a sports writer and one was a

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Speaker 1: copy editor. But they were on the exact same side

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Speaker 1: of the room, so in very close quarter. But if

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Speaker 1: they're married, though, I feel like that's different from dating couple.

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Speaker 1: One couple did get married later they had been dating

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Speaker 1: up until that point. But I think, like, I totally

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Speaker 1: agree with you, and I think that as long as

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Speaker 1: couples aren't like smoochie smouchie in the office all the time,

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Speaker 1: then it's more acceptable. But what do you think though

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Speaker 1: about this issue of specifically using sex as a tool

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Speaker 1: to I mean, it's despicable. Yeah, But why do you

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Speaker 1: think even though we have twenty like what was it,

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Speaker 1: even though we have twenty nine of men, more men

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Speaker 1: saying that they'd be cool dating a boss than women

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Speaker 1: who say they'd be cool dating as us, why do

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Speaker 1: you think that the perception is still like the negative

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Speaker 1: perception is still largely focused on women, because the societal

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Speaker 1: perception of women is still that we are wiley and

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Speaker 1: using our curves and whatever to get ahead in anything,

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Speaker 1: you know, to get out of a parking ticket, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is just the way that women are

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Speaker 1: perceived in in the context of office romances. Is just

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Speaker 1: an extension of how women are perceived in pretty much

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Speaker 1: any social interaction which is manipulative and you know, using

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Speaker 1: that push up broad to get ahead. Yeah, using sex

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Speaker 1: essentially as our our only commodity, sex bodies, which then

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Speaker 1: links back to you know about the gays and objectification

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Speaker 1: all of this, which is about to launchry into like

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Speaker 1: gender studies one oh one. But Julie Burbitski actually spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time looking into these dynamics in terms

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Speaker 1: of sexism and sex in the office as she read

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Speaker 1: a book Sex in the Office, The History of Gender,

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Speaker 1: Power and Desire and looks at the history of women

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Speaker 1: in the workplace in the past one d fifty years

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Speaker 1: and how that intersects with exactly what you're talking about, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: that societal idea that women basically are just constantly selling

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Speaker 1: sex in one form or another. And she concludes that

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Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years after women in the eighteen

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Speaker 1: sixties first started taking office jobs of the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Treasury in the United States, that was one of the

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Speaker 1: first officers to employ women. She concludes that relatively little

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Speaker 1: exchange in terms of our broader attitudes towards sex in

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Speaker 1: the office, specifically that we still have a persistent belief

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Speaker 1: that women use and lie about sex, and we have

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Speaker 1: a persistent belief that access to women in the workplace

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Speaker 1: is a natural per for successful businessmen. M I mean

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Speaker 1: things things have changed for the better for the most part.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I doubt there are very many offices where

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Speaker 1: the male boss is still chasing around the secretary, chasing

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Speaker 1: around the desk, you know, like trying to pinch her button,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. We do have sexual harassment laws, and

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Speaker 1: we do have more female executives among our ranks, and

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Speaker 1: so so that's good, right, I mean, that is good.

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Speaker 1: But the Equal Employment Opportunity Office that monitor things like

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment complaints, they still receive between eleven and twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand complaints per year regarding sexual harassment. So I mean

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Speaker 1: it's definitely still pervasive. And the whole thing about women executives.

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Speaker 1: One thing that popped into my head when I saw

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Speaker 1: this was that now we're starting to see, if we're

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Speaker 1: talking about pop culture, now we're starting to see this

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Speaker 1: like more playful attitude regarding powerful women suit chasing younger

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Speaker 1: male employees, kind of like on the New Girl. For

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Speaker 1: anyone who watches a New Girl, there there's this character Schmidt,

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Speaker 1: and he works in an office and his female superiors

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Speaker 1: sometimes want to have sex with him, and and he

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's like this comedic, ha ha, funny thing.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's still I don't know that that's

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Speaker 1: a sign of progress, Like, all right, now we're at

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Speaker 1: the top, and we can be equally inappropriate. Great, we

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Speaker 1: can harass each other equally well. And the thing is, though,

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Speaker 1: and and Barbitsky talks about this and sex in the office,

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Speaker 1: it's it's this larger idea that men are powerless against

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Speaker 1: their sexuality. Women walked into the office place, you know,

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Speaker 1: a hundred fifty years ago, and everyone freaked out because

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Speaker 1: of this antiquated notion that men can't control themselves, which

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Speaker 1: is a total and complete insult, first of all, two men.

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Speaker 1: And and she said, though, at the same time, our

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Speaker 1: concepts of women's sexuality have been in flux from that

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Speaker 1: idea of you know, the Victorian virginal innocent too, and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden we have, you know, the other

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Speaker 1: end of the spectrum, the conniving tramp. So women have

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Speaker 1: often been perceived as the guardians of their own sexuality,

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Speaker 1: you know, not not using it for evil, but also

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Speaker 1: as the guardians of men's sexuality. And what is this

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Speaker 1: done for all of us? Nothing good? Yeah, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's that idea that boys will be boys. Oh men,

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Speaker 1: they're hilarious, and how infantilizing is that we're even calling

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Speaker 1: them boys in that regard. I think that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's so easy to say that there's not enough you know,

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Speaker 1: protection from sexual harassment for women, and absolutely like those

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Speaker 1: kind of laws need to be in place. The e

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Speaker 1: o C needs to be arguably more aggressive with pursuing

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Speaker 1: complaints that, but we also at the same time need

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Speaker 1: to do boys and men of favor of you know,

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Speaker 1: getting rid of that now just antiquated idea that it's

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Speaker 1: somehow like totally all of their control. No, well, it's

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's it's surprising and not like

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Speaker 1: that's what I always say. I always say it's surprising

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Speaker 1: and not about things like this. It's surprising and yet

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Speaker 1: not that it took until ninety for the term sexual

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Speaker 1: harassment to even come around. Um, I mean feminist coined

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Speaker 1: that term to finally put language to those unwanted sexual suggestions, jokes,

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Speaker 1: or sexual coersion that had taken place in the office

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Speaker 1: for ages. I mean, when you think about, like if

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Speaker 1: you've ever had to go to like sexual harassment training

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Speaker 1: for your work or for your school or for anything

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Speaker 1: like that. It's it is kind of funny, not funny, funny, weird,

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Speaker 1: not funny ha ha. To think about how long it took,

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Speaker 1: you know, And then it wasn't that long ago that

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Speaker 1: that term even came about. Yeah, And it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: six that the Supreme Court ruled that unwelcome actions constituted

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Speaker 1: a form of sex discrimination and violation of Title seven

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Speaker 1: of the Civil Rights Act, which essentially helped pave the

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Speaker 1: way for um sexual harassment policies and laws really being

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Speaker 1: enforced in workplaces. Right, But I mean, I guess I

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Speaker 1: get so frustrated that it it took that long for

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Speaker 1: people to be like, oh, wait, so women in the

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Speaker 1: office don't just exist for men to look at and

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Speaker 1: flirt with. Well, listen to this uh Bourbinski talks about

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Speaker 1: in sex in office how in the late nineteenth century,

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Speaker 1: many businessmen made it a rule to never be alone

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Speaker 1: with a typewriter, as in a woman who would come

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Speaker 1: in and type on a typewriter, because she might be

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Speaker 1: a quote unquote adventurous with evil designs. This sounds exciting.

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Speaker 1: So even though in the workplace she has no power,

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Speaker 1: there's still this idea that that's the the sex does

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Speaker 1: give us that one, but it's like the one one

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Speaker 1: thing that we've got. I didn't know by the way

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Speaker 1: that I was going to end up seeking so passionately

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Speaker 1: about this because it's like one of those onion kind

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Speaker 1: of topics when you start to peel it away and

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Speaker 1: peel it away and peel it away, and you're like,

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Speaker 1: oh wait, there is so much more connected to this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's funny though about that first generation of women who

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Speaker 1: entered the office back in the eighteen sixties, um, because

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Speaker 1: the view of them was so complex, because if you

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Speaker 1: were a good middle class woman, well, gosh, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: go to work. You'd be at home, you'd be raising babies,

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Speaker 1: you'd be you know, sewing your clothes. You wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: at an office making money. That's tachi well, and the

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Speaker 1: whole thing of like if you were attracted to have enough,

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Speaker 1: and you'd probably be married off, but or you would

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Speaker 1: get married to. I mean, that's another stereotype that exists today,

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Speaker 1: either sleeping your way to the top or winning ugly

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00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: like you're you're obviously like okay, well you had to

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Speaker 1: give up on the love thing because you're not attractive enough.

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Speaker 1: That's why you're so good at your career. And the

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Speaker 1: thing is, though, I do think that while a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is painting a very dismal portrait of women

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Speaker 1: in the office, it is a reality of stereotypes that

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Speaker 1: we do still face. I think it's getting a lot better,

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Speaker 1: and I think I do think that women in leadership

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Speaker 1: um absolutely help um, but there's still a lot of

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Speaker 1: progress to be made. Sure And I mean not okay,

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Speaker 1: so not to completely like brush aside everything we were

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Speaker 1: just talking about, but taking it back to just playing

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Speaker 1: office romance. I mean, we did talk about how our generation,

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Speaker 1: the millennial generation, has such a different perspective than possibly

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Speaker 1: the oh slightly older generations. You know, Um, what do

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Speaker 1: you think? What do you think that's gonna mean going forward?

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Speaker 1: Do you think I mean, is work just going to

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Speaker 1: become our lives? Are we just gonna start I mean,

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Speaker 1: is work just going to become the home? Are we

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Speaker 1: going to be bringing our babies and our dogs and

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Speaker 1: our husbands to work with us? Well? No, I think

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna be taking our work to our home.

429
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: Where are our dogs, where our spouse is who we

430
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: met at work back when we worked in an office

431
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: now we probably would have met the spouse on on Okay,

432
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: Cupid or some kind of online dating. Um No, but

433
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: I'm glad you bring it that you do. Circle it

434
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: back to that generational difference, because here's a positive theory.

435
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: Perhaps that maybe the more normalized, positive view that we

436
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: have of office romance is a signal that maybe those

437
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: old stereotypes are starting to really fall by the wayside. Right,

438
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: the fact that nobody automatically assumes that a woman in

439
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 1: an off us romance is exploiting the man's power, and

440
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: that a man in an office romance is not exploiting

441
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: a woman's sexuality. Yeah, that office romance doesn't necessarily signal

442
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: affair signal conniving, signal, someone just using their bodies to

443
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: get to the top. Right, So maybe it's a good

444
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: thing that we and I say we speaking for the

445
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: entire millennial generation, that Pam and Jim and Leslie Nope

446
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: and everybody else have made office romance more acceptable. Yeah,

447
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: I mean, still be smart about it, absolutely, you know, well,

448
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: you know, make sure you you check your motivations before

449
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: you wreck your something that rhymes with motivations. Um. And

450
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: and don't go after the boss or anything for any

451
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: any weird reasons. Yeah, I think, well, there's such a

452
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: distinct line of this podcast between office romance and office sex. Yeah, yeah,

453
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: big big difference there. So for this one, I definitely

454
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: want to hear as always from listeners out there because

455
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: I am sure that there is a diversity of experiences

456
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: both in terms of sweet stories. Did you meet your

457
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: honey pie at the office, let us know that, and

458
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: also have you experienced more of those negative sides of

459
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 1: office not so romance? Let us know mom Stuff at

460
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: Discovery dot com and Caroline, we didn't even touch on

461
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: all those trend stories about office spouses. That's another topic

462
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: for another time. I think that is. I know I

463
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: have a friend who constantly refers to her office spouse

464
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: and it's not you, uh, their their friends, but the

465
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: man's wife actually really really hates it. Yeah, if we

466
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: need to do an episode on office spouse because that's

467
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: that's non sexual relations at the workplace, let us know

468
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: if you want that too. We can certainly follow up

469
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: mom stuff a Discovery dot com is where you can

470
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: send all of your letters, So you can tweet us

471
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or send us a note over

472
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: on Facebook and like us while you're at it, and

473
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: while you are digesting all of this information we have

474
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: given you about office romance, let's take a quick break

475
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 1: and now stack to some letters. So, Caroline, I was

476
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: going through the stuff I've never told you in box,

477
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: catching up on some old letters, because you know what,

478
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: sometimes the inbox gets a little backed up, and I

479
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: apologize for that, but I wanted to share a couple

480
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: of older emails from our episode about hair color, which

481
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: I thought were a lot of fun. So Margaret, first

482
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: of all, writes in saying, Hi, Kristen and Caroline, I

483
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: just wanted to chime in on your recent podcast on

484
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: hair color and whether or not blondes have more fun.

485
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: I grew up blonde in the United States, and when

486
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: I was younger, people would frequently comment on my light

487
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: blonde hair. However, I am now living in Sweden and

488
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: the perspective on blonde hair here is very different. As

489
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: you might imagine, blonde hair is very common here. Unlike

490
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: in the States, where people attempt to become bottle blondes,

491
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: in Sweden, I'm much more likely to see people trying

492
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: to get rid of their natural blonde hair to become

493
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: brunettes or redheads. For me, it's very interesting to see

494
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: what is considered an exciting hair color year, as it

495
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: is so different from what I was used to in

496
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,239
Speaker 1: the United States. It's strange and funny that the light

497
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: blonde hair that people commented on frequently my childhood is

498
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: now more often than not seen as common or boring.

499
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: So thinks Margaret, I have one hair from Christie. She's

500
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: representing the redheads, she says. I'm a proud redhead. I've

501
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: been told many different myths about my hair, ranging from

502
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: I have no soul to my hair makes me feisty too,

503
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 1: I'm only a red head to be noticed, and I'm

504
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: more likely to have a threesome. Yeah, the last one

505
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: is baffling for me. The issue is less one of discrimination.

506
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: People are enamored with my hair. Strangers feel the need

507
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: to grow my head or make me promise to never

508
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: destroy the color. They seem to believe it's on the

509
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: same level as a pregnant woman's stomach. To make it worse,

510
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: my father loves golden Retrievers with the redder color. The

511
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: fact that I match my dog's baffle strangers. Some would

512
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: go as far as putting my hair on the dog's head.

513
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: When I was a child, I did face discrimination. My

514
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: niece is also a red head and faces the same problem.

515
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: She's constantly bullied at school because of it. As an

516
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: impressionable child, she wants to be like everyone else in

517
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: many ways, she'll learn that having fiery locks is good,

518
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: but in a society that emphasizes similarity, she won't learn

519
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: that until she's old enough to embrace her unique attributes. Luckily,

520
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: she has me as a shining example of ginger pride,

521
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: so I think that's great, Christie. I also I have

522
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: a red head niece, and I hope she also embraces

523
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: her genter pride as well. So thank you and thanks

524
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: everyone who's written into mom stuff at Discovery dot com.

525
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: You can also follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast,

526
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: and keep up with us on Facebook as well and

527
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: Tumbler at stuff mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com,

528
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: and don't forget that you can watch us as well

529
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: four times a week on YouTube, so head over to

530
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com, slash stuff Mom Never Told You, and

531
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for moral this and thousands of

532
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: other topics. Is It how stuff Works dot com