1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,639 Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants huts. 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 2: Let's go. Let's go Giants. Get on my Giants mobul, 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 2: give me some job. Part of the Giants podcast Network. 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: Let's roll. Welcome to another episode of the Giants Little Podcast, 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 2: brought to you by Citizens, the official bank of the 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: New York Football Giants. John Schmulk with you, joined by 7 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: longtime NFL personnel executive Randy Mueller. Currently he writes for 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 2: The Athletic also hosts of the Football gm podcast, which 9 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: you can find on the Athletic Football Show podcast feed. 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: Randy has been in the league since nineteen eighty three, 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: including Stints's general manager of the Saints and the Mammi Dolphins, 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: and he joins us right now to talk about the 13 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: Giants offseason. Randy's good to do this. I was happy 14 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 2: to meet you in person at the combine. Hope all 15 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: as well. 16 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing great. Good to be with you, johnn 17 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: You're making me feel old by listening to that intro. Man, 18 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: I need to tighten up my stuff here. 19 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: A lot of accomplishments, and that's why I want to 20 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: have you on, because you've been through a lot, and 21 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: you've been in situations like the Giants are of this 22 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: offseason in terms of what they're trying to deal with. 23 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: So let's go with fre agency first, be as that 24 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: comes first before the draft. And in your article on 25 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: the Athletic you gave the Giants your biggest roster upgrade 26 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: award and your fregency breakdown after week one of free agency, 27 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: and a lot of that had to do with the 28 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: two offensive linemen they signed, John Runyon Junior and Jermaina Luminor, 29 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: a player that you had ranked sixteenth on your freegency board. 30 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: Runyan Junior was eleventh. Why did you like those two 31 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: moves so much by the Giants. 32 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: Well, I think anytime you can upgrade an offensive line, 33 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: you need to do it because, as we have kind 34 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: of done a history check throughout the time of free agency, 35 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: good offensive linemen do not normally come available. And I 36 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: thought this was an abnormal group of quality, and I 37 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: thought Joe Shane and the front office of the Giants 38 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: acted quickly, and they were They had convictions for their evaluations, 39 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: and I thought they were both good moves. The thing 40 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: that's interesting about these two guys is they have experienced John, 41 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: but they also have upside in the developing as being 42 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: a sending type players, I think is always good money spent. 43 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: And I think what the Giants realize is maybe after 44 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: year one they weren't as good as they thought they were, 45 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: And this might be a little bit of a teardown 46 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: for Giant fans, But I think it needs to be 47 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: done so we can build up around him. And I 48 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: think these two guys on the offensive line. To get 49 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: two guys, and I know it's just one guy's list, 50 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: but two guys in the top twenty at a position 51 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: that I don't think you can ever go wrong upgrading. 52 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: I think it's been an awesome job for them. 53 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now for Randy for the fans that don't know, 54 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: he puts together the athletics free agency board. I think 55 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: it was one hundred and fifty strong this year, right, 56 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: And you watch tape on all these guys, and I 57 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: think you probably had these two offensive linemen rated higher 58 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 2: than a lot of other people that do similar things. 59 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: So let's go with John Runyan Junior. 60 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: First. 61 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: Besides the fact that he's an ascending player, when you 62 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: watch this tape, when I went through it, I thought 63 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: as a pass protector, you could see that he was 64 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: a left tackle in Michigan, the way he protected the 65 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: passer from the guard position. What is it that you 66 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: liked about his tape when you watched it. 67 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: I think the big thing about him for me is 68 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: that his balance and ability to recover gives you a 69 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: chance to succeed at the NFL level, Because, as we 70 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: both know, guys are really good, the defensive defensive linemen 71 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: are really good. You're gonna be out of position and 72 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: off balance. It's never gonna go as you plan. But 73 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: he finds a way to get back in character, back 74 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: in balance, and then have enough strength to anchor himself 75 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: so that when they do bull rush him. The size, 76 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: the mass, that what we call sand in the butt, 77 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: He's got all of that. But I loved his balance. 78 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: That's the big thing for me is his ability to 79 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: recover from an awkward position. 80 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: And then Jermaina Lumino is interesting. We had a chance 81 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: to talk to him atthewes sign here. I did like 82 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: a fifteen minute interview with the guy really interesting and 83 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: he flat out tome to ran the interview in the 84 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: first five years of my NFL career, and this is 85 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: the quote. I sucked. I wasn't very good. I was bad. 86 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: But he really thinks the last couple of years, after 87 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: being coached by Dante Scarnekia in New England, and then 88 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: Carmen Brisillo, which was also with him in New England, 89 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: followed him to Vegas that he's really been playing pretty 90 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: good football these last couple of years. What did you 91 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: like about his tape at right tackle and what did 92 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: you think about some of his position flexibility and his 93 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: ability to move around a little bit too. 94 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: Well. I love this tape and I love the flexibility 95 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: as well. And as you mentioned, here's a guy that 96 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: developed from really nothing, being born out of the country, 97 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: hadn't been around football a lot growing up. I think 98 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: there's tons of upside for me. He may have been 99 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: the most undervalued guy of all the guys I looked for. 100 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: I just I thought there'd be a bigger market. I'll 101 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: be honest with you. I thought he would get paid more, 102 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: and I thought teams would get into a bidding war 103 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: for him. I agree that the ideal length for a 104 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: tackle might be a little more than what he has, 105 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: but he showed to me technique, arm length, ability to 106 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: adapt on the edge and play really on an island 107 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: as good as a lot of right tackles in this league. 108 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: So I think the position flexibility that you mentioned make 109 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: him an ideal guy to be your sixth lineman. If 110 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: he's not a starting tackle. I think he could play inside, 111 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: he could play outside, And I love the kids attitude. 112 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you got to speak him a 113 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: little bit in that. You gotta love a guy that's 114 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: hungry like this, that wants to be a giant per se. 115 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: I thought it was a great fit, and I thought 116 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: some other teams may have missed out on this guy. 117 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: But I credit the Giants for really, like I said, 118 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: having some convictions for their evaluations. And I would guess 119 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: if you gave Joe Shane some truth serum, he would 120 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: be shocked at how the price was affordable and how 121 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: they could do it as quickly as they did. He'd 122 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: be surprised at both those things. 123 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: All right, So let's dive into the offensive line situation 124 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: before we head over to the Brians burn Brian Burns 125 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: move Randy as a guy who's putting a roster together. 126 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: How valuable was it to have two guys like Runnian 127 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: who was the left guard for two years, right guard 128 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: for two years, left tackle at Michigan so you know 129 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 2: he can play right guard or left guard, no problem. 130 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: A Lumino, we mentioned the four position flexibility for him 131 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 2: to set up a situation where you can get your 132 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: best five linemen on the field. When you have two 133 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: guys like Aluminor and Running that have the position flex 134 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: that they have. 135 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: Well it's awesome because it's not if you get guys hurt, 136 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: it's win. They're gonna all play. In fact, you need 137 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: to have seven or eight of these guys because they're 138 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: gonna all play. That's just the nature of the position 139 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: and the league that we're in. These guys are playing long, 140 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: hard seasons that are physically taxing and you're gonna miss 141 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: some time. So I think it's more than a five 142 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: man job. And the fact that these guys can move positions. 143 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: How about this, If you say a guy gets hurt 144 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: mid drive, one of these guys could slide to another 145 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: position in the middle of a drive on the field 146 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: and not have to be coached up on it. That's valuable. 147 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: Not to mention the week to week flexibility if you 148 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: do get hit with some injuries. So I think it's protection. 149 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: It's protection against the inevitable of the injuries and so 150 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a great move for them and the 151 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: Giants in particular, to really kind of change the way 152 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: they allocated their cap. And this gets on to another topic. 153 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: But obviously they don't have Sekwon Barkley. They don't have him, 154 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: but they reallocated that money, I think to building more 155 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: of the foundation for this roster, building more of the 156 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: foundation for the team. Where they probably weren't ready to 157 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: spend thirteen fourteen million on a running back. They weren't 158 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: the rest of their team couldn't back that up. And 159 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: now the choice is they get a Devin Singletary for 160 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: three or four million versus what they would have had 161 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: to pay for Saqquon, and you have all these other 162 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: players on top of it. I think it makes sense 163 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: from a roster building standpoint. 164 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the same way, not ready to pay a 165 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: safety seventeen million dollars like Zavian McKinney, right, I think 166 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: that's a Lakes are based on where they are. I'm 167 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: with you so well, and we'll get to the other 168 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: way they reallocated that money in the second put me 169 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: in the GM shoes with a guy like Evan Neil, 170 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: who was a top ten pick Obviously, when Joe Shane 171 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: drafted him two years ago, he liked him enough to 172 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: make him a high pick. His college tape was good, 173 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: but in two years he hasn't played well enough, and 174 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: Joe shaneas said he needs to play better. But at 175 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: the same time, he's only played in twenty two NFL games, 176 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: that's including two playoff games. He's battled lower body injuries 177 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: for two years. But you bring in a lumin or, 178 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: he gives you a bit of a backslide position right 179 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: now tackle right. So if you're the Giants, you're Joe Shane, 180 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: you're bringing a new offensive line coach this year. How 181 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: are you handling Evan Neil and him at right tackle? 182 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: When do you start considering moving into the guard? Do 183 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: you give him another year? How do you handle that 184 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: whole process, because it can't be an easy one. 185 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's definitely to at this point going 186 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: to be I think you've got to find a way 187 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: to get your best five on the field, and I 188 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: don't know that you can do that until we get 189 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: into training camp, but that will become apparent. It won't 190 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: really be anybody's judgment. Those players will figure it out themselves. 191 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: They'll either do it or they won't. That's the good 192 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: thing about it, and you've got options ilumin or yeah, 193 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: he pushes the right tackle position for sure. Maybe it's 194 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: not him that moves into guard. Maybe it's somebody else 195 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: that has to move into guard. The goal is to 196 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: get the best five out there and give them a 197 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: chance to work as a unit, so everybody can say, well, 198 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: we didn't get this out of a Neil the first 199 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: couple of years. He's got to fit in with the 200 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: other four guys as well, So it's more about I think, 201 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: a unit and getting those guys to work together. And 202 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's something that won't be a parent 203 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: until we start banging bodies and into training camp in preseason. 204 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: How tough is it to be patient though, for a 205 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: guy that you did draft high but again has Dene 206 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:07,599 Speaker 2: with a lot of injuries, hasn't played a ton of 207 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: football in the NFL level to know when it's right 208 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: to pull the ripcord a tackle and say, all right, 209 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: maybe his best position is a guard. 210 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: Well, I think when everybody else weighs in on it, 211 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: I think you can't fool players. You can't fool the 212 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: locker room. You can't fool any of these guys that 213 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: have been doing this for their whole lives. Eventually it'll 214 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: become apparent. And two wrongs don't make a right. So 215 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: at some point these players have to swim. They have 216 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: to do with on their own own. You have to 217 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: get rid of the life jackets and at some point 218 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: you gotta play. And I would think three years into 219 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: a career, Evanale will have to prove what he is 220 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: or what he isn't and then the Giants will have 221 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: to make decisions based on that. 222 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: Yep, I think that makes sense. All right. You talked 223 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: about reallocating money, Well, they reallocated a whole lot of 224 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: money to Brian Burns after they traded for him in 225 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 2: free agency. Randy, you talk me about the money that 226 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: they could have paid Saquon Barkley and David McKinney, Well, 227 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: you added together and it basically adds up to Brian 228 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: Burns and what that trade ended up being. Let's start 229 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: with the deal first. Generally speaking, I'm against using two 230 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: buckets of assets to obtain a player, having to use 231 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: a draft pick to obtain him in a trade, and 232 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: then use a lot of cast base to resign him. 233 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: But I think you pointed this out as your article 234 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: as well. For defensive end like this, you have to 235 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: pay a toll just to have access to him, right, 236 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 2: This guy does not reach free agency, and I think 237 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 2: that's why you're a little more willing to send in 238 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: the pick and then sign the contract, right because pass 239 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: rushes like this just don't become available on the market. 240 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I don't think you have a chance 241 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: to get a talent like this unless you have the 242 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: first pick in an NFL draft. I mean, that's how 243 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: much of a priority a pass rusher with Brian Burns' 244 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: skill set brings to the table. So you just don't 245 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: have a chance. You got to suck it up, and 246 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: here's your opportunity to do it. The fact that they 247 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: gave a second and a fifth for him, that's relatively cheap, 248 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: trust me. That is to acquire his skill set and 249 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: his talent in a system that they feel like he 250 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: fits with. It's like having an extra first round picks. 251 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: So for me, it's a no brainer. Yeah, they cost 252 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: a lot of money to sign. Guess what, good players 253 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: cost a lot of money. That's just the way it is. 254 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: They're gonna have to work around that. Not this year, 255 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: maybe not next year, but in time, we all know 256 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: that the average perdo equals cap dollars. Eventually, his fifteen 257 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: million dollar cap number this year might be forty in 258 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: three or four years. But that's life and times of talented, 259 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: really good players. And you got to build around that fact. 260 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: You loved turf, you're good at it, So you start 261 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: a turf Viz. Business grows, your savings grow, become the 262 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: most celebrated name in turf. Are you ready for all 263 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: that life brings? 264 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: And it's funny. I loved him coming out of the 265 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: draft in twenty nineteen. He got picked one selection before 266 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: the Giants took Dexter Lawrence, and I was crushed at 267 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 2: the time I won the Giants that one of the 268 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: but Brian Burns now it all worked out. Dexter Lawrence 269 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 2: is phenomenal. But it's funny. I was surprised his production 270 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: wasn't a little bit better the first five years of 271 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: his career, only one double digit sax season, very consistent, 272 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: was never below seven and a half. Then I went 273 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: back and looked at the tape after the trade again 274 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 2: and it was like falling in love with the player 275 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: all over again, the array of moves. The motor. Yeah, 276 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: he has the speed to bend the edge is kind 277 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 2: of the base, but then he uses the long arm 278 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: for power. He is the counter spin moves inside and outside. 279 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: I'm frankly confused, Randy, how this guy wasn't more productive 280 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: based on what I saw when I rewatched his tape 281 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: after the trade. 282 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: No, I agree with you a hundred percent. I don't 283 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: think you can you can really evaluate his production on paper. 284 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: I just don't think that does it justice. And you're right. 285 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: I think it was what eight or eight and a 286 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: half sacks this year. He's a way better player than that, 287 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: and I think he'll be They'll be disappointed if they 288 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: don't get ten or twelve sacks out of him in 289 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: their scheme in New York. Now, some of the some 290 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: of the issues they had in Carolina is that they 291 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: were never ahead, so they could never rush the passer 292 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: this past year, so his opportunities were somewhat limited because 293 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: they're always, you know, in catch up mode and teams 294 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: are running the ball down their throat a lot of times. 295 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: So put this guy in a good defense where you 296 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: can pin your ears back occasionally and have lead. There's 297 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: your twelve sacks. 298 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: In my opinion, when you're building a team, how valuable 299 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: is it to create a unit that another your opponent 300 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: has the game plan against. Right now, the Giants are 301 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 2: rolling out of defensive front that features tip It on 302 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 2: one end, Burns on the other, you throwing Oja lari 303 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: as a situational pass rusher Dexter Lawrence in the middle. 304 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: When you're building, are you trying to figure out a unit, 305 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: preferably upfront from my perspective, where you really have a 306 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: strength that the other team has to game plan against. 307 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. That's the name of the game, right 308 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: It's no different on the offensive side. When you get 309 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: somebody that can run fast, defenses have to defend you differently. 310 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: You get a couple guy can rush the passer, They 311 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: have to be aware of where their protections are, where 312 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: they turn their protections, who's involved in the protections on 313 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: every snap. It's not just an occasional thought. So it 314 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: affects the winning and losing I think in game planning 315 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: week to week more than anything else. And that's why 316 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: you see the money spent on these priority positions. Guys 317 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: that can rush the passer, Guys that can run fast 318 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: tackles that can protect the backside. Those are the primary 319 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: positions where you got a Grin and Barrett. With as 320 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: far as the cap dollars, you have to commit. But 321 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: do we want to get better? Do we want to win? 322 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: And then we got to trust our coaches to actually 323 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: put them in the best position where their skill sets 324 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: are the most positive. And that's the challenge. 325 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: John so Toto podcast is brought to you by Citizens, 326 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: the official bank of the Giants from game data every day, 327 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: Citizens Indy ready for Giant fans with insights, guidance and solutions. 328 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: Learn more at Citizens bank dot com. We're joined by 329 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: Randy Mueller. Randy, let's jump to the other free agencign 330 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: that I would can consider significant, and that was bringing 331 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: in Devin Singletary to plug the hole left by Saquon 332 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: Barkley's departure to the Philadelphia Eagles. And I gotta be honest. 333 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: When I went back and rewatched Devin Singletary's tape, I 334 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: was really impressed. I think his height at five to 335 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: seven is actually an advantage for him. I think he 336 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: gives him really good contact balance and the ability to 337 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: make guys miss in small areas. You know he doesn't 338 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: have the explosive long game ability of Saquon with his 339 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: top end speed, But I'll be honest with you, I mean, 340 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: from down to down on a consistency basis, I think 341 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: Singletary is going to be just fine. 342 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: Really good player. I agree with you. I think the 343 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: way he plays is and at the stature he is, 344 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: he's a hard guy to locate in traffic as well. 345 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: You get in the box when there's you know, a 346 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: lot of big men in there. I don't want to 347 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: say he can hide, but he can hide and make 348 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: a defenders struggle to really find out where he's at 349 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: because he has quickness, he has an explosive first step 350 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: that makes it hard to get a real shot on him. 351 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I think when you equate 352 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: his skill set to where Barkley is, you definitely lose 353 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of the top end of the fifth gear. 354 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: There's maybe not the same fifth gear, But when you 355 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: talk about one guy counting three point seven million and 356 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: another guy counting thirteen to five or whatever Barkley's deal was, 357 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: and all the other things you can do, I don't 358 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: think it's a I don't think it's a big step back, 359 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: and I think the Giants are going about it in 360 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: the right way. And you mentioned all these superlatives. I'm 361 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: with you there. There's a reason I put him number 362 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: one on that list for the Athletic last week because 363 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: I do like all these moves. I'm not just scratching 364 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: your back back here, No. 365 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely. As a GM, what did you think about Randy 366 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: of renegotiating contracts and pushing money back. What type of 367 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: players are you willing to do that with? And at 368 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: what point in your building process as you're building your 369 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 2: franchise and your team, are you willing to start making 370 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: those moves where you're taking Andrew Thomas contract, you take 371 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: a Dexter Lawrence contract, you know, you turn some base 372 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: into signing bonus, you push it back. Do you wait 373 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: until you're closer to competing to do that or is 374 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: that something you'll be willing to do now? If but 375 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: it means the ability to be a little bit more 376 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: aggressive and free agency. 377 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: Well, I think the patient's level nowadays is not what 378 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: it used to be. So everybody long term now it's 379 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: two or three years. So you've got to kind of 380 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: focus your vision on the next couple of years, and 381 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: you would love to be able to not do that 382 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: until you get over the hump. As a team build, right, 383 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: sometimes you've got to press a little bit now and 384 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: you see teams do it. What you give up when 385 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: you do it is flexibility in the future. You just 386 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: don't have a way to tinker with your roster as 387 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: much a year from now or two years from now. 388 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: I mean, look at what the Saints have done. They've 389 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: done this every year and yeah, people can say they 390 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: just keep kicking a can, but it takes away their flexibility. 391 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: They can't rebuild really anything because they're upside down with 392 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: all these contracts. That's the key. I think the biggest 393 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: thing for the Giants is they got to figure out 394 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: what happens with Darren Waller. His contract that is on 395 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: the books, and it's not one that's upside down. They're 396 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: thinking is that they've kind of pushed what they can 397 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: to the future. 398 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 2: Now. 399 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: Now it's a matter of getting better through the draft 400 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: and adding some younger pieces, and I think they'll do that. 401 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: But the Waller contract for me, still is a little 402 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 1: bit of It puts them limbo as to what's going 403 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: to happen with. 404 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 2: That ranny And we'll get to the draft in a second. 405 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: One thing that drives me nothing. I imagine it does 406 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: for you too. With these people that say the salary 407 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: cap doesn't exist, because eventually the money winds up on 408 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: the cap. You can keep using these magic sticks to 409 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: push it back. Eventually, that dead capit is going to 410 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: find you down the road. It doesn't disappear, It's going 411 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 2: to be there. Eventually. Those cap hits at the end 412 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: of for example, of Jalen Hurts' contract, they're going to hit, 413 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: you know, Dak Prescott's sixty million dollar capit this year. 414 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: It hit like it comes eventually, and you know, the 415 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 2: cap eventually becomes real, even if you can play some 416 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: tricks with it in the short term. 417 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: The best way I describe it to people, John is 418 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: that when we use our credit cards and pull it 419 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: out during the week when we're buying something, and if 420 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: we get to the point where we max it out completely, 421 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: we don't get to shred that credit card and just 422 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: go get a new one. Eventually you have to pay 423 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: the bill. The bank isn't going to allow you to 424 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: do that. And that's what the crowd that's says the 425 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: cap is fake doesn't understand you have to pay these bills. 426 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: So at times, at some point you're gonna have to 427 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: pay the piper. We saw it happen in LA with 428 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: the Rams the last couple of years, after they won 429 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: the Super Bowl and gave all in to all these 430 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: said forget the picks, We're gonna pay this. Pay that. 431 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: Eventually they've had to come back to Earth and pay 432 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: the piper, just like we would if we charged everything 433 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: we bought on our credit card. Once we get maxed out, 434 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: we have to start to pay the bill. That's just 435 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: the way the cap works. 436 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: Giant fans love a winner. It's why they love Citizens 437 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: NA in the twenty twenty two Best Bank in the 438 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 2: US by the Banker, as the official bank of the 439 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: Giants and sponsor of the huddle, Citizens has made ready 440 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: for fans of big Blue. Learn more at citizens bank 441 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: dot com. All right, Randy, let's jump to the draft. Here, 442 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: Giants sitting pretty at number six. I think it's a 443 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: great year to be picking six. I think there's a 444 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 2: huge number of blue chip prospects in this draft class 445 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: compared to what we've seen in the last few years. 446 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: I'll just give you the broad spectrum question for us. 447 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: Then we can dig into it a little bit. What 448 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: do you think the Giants' main goal should be with 449 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: that six to overall pick. 450 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: Well, I think in general they should pick the highest 451 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: player that's rated on their board. That's what they should do. 452 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: And I know that's kind of a downer for a 453 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: lot of draft knicks that want to plug and play 454 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: all these players and fill needs here and there. I 455 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: got news for you. If they don't get at six 456 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: a player that's ranked in their top three or four, 457 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: that would be disappointing, regardless of position. Now I understand 458 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: we may have some position priority. Whether they end up 459 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: entering that quarterback market, I don't know. You know more 460 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: about that than I do. John, Where they and how 461 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: they feel about Daniel Jones, I know this, Caleb Williams 462 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: sets himself apart. After that, there's a group of four 463 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: or five, including quarterbacks, including receivers, that I think are 464 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: really good players. But there's a little bit of a gap. 465 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure I'd be willing to trade up 466 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: to nail one of these guys rather than just sit 467 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: tight and take what comes to me. Being I'm where 468 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,959 Speaker 1: the Giants are in their team build. So a general answer, 469 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: A more specific answer if I'm the Giants. Hey, that's 470 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: my view from from the left coast three thousand miles away. 471 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: All right, So let's dig into it then, and we'll 472 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 2: get to the quarterback concept and evaluation process in a second. 473 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 2: I have trouble passing on and I'm gonna go receiver 474 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: just because I think you have a few really, really good, 475 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 2: high level receivers in this class. And I think Randy 476 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: and you can disagree with you, like I think the 477 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: Giants need to have a go to game planning for 478 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 2: defenses worthy wide receiver to supplement the speed of highlight 479 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: of a high at the quickness of Vondo Robinson. I 480 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: think it kind of sets up the whole receiving core. 481 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: I have trouble passing on one of those guys if 482 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 2: I'm taking a quarterback that I don't genuinely believe has 483 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: a good chance to becoming, you know, a top eight 484 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: guy that can carry your team like some of the 485 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: best quarterbacks in the league. But we all how important 486 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,959 Speaker 2: quarterback is as well. So how would you balance that 487 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: choice as a GM. 488 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a great time to be where 489 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: they are and have to answer that question. But you're 490 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: exactly right. We don't know how the Giants feel about 491 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: these quarterbacks. I'm kind of you know, I have one 492 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: that I like other than Caleb, that I would be 493 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: willing to kind of go up for. It may be 494 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: different than who you like, John, So it all depends 495 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: on how they view them and then the fact of 496 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 1: what it would take to get them. I agree with you. 497 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: I think the three receivers are all really good NFL receivers. 498 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: But I think more importantly than anything is the skill 499 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: sets are all different. These three receivers are all a 500 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: little different. So rather than match the name with the team, 501 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: you need to then match the skill set we are 502 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: missing with the guys we have. And so that'll be interesting. 503 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: I know this in evaluating receivers, and this has just 504 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: been my history. If you can't get away from people, 505 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: you're going to struggle at the NFL level. No matter 506 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: how good you can catch, you have got to be 507 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: able to separate and get away from people. And I 508 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: know for a fact that the neighbor's kid can separate 509 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: and get away from people, and I think I know 510 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: that Odoozy can do. Saying I don't know where I 511 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: am really on Harrison as being the guy that can 512 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: get away from everybody all the time. He's the biggest, 513 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: he's the best catcher of the bunch. I get it. 514 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: But it all depends on what skill set you put 515 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: at the top of your criteria list. The Giants may 516 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: have a different criteria than you me, so it kind 517 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: of depends on which they prioritize first, and that will 518 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: lead you to the receiver they select, if they should 519 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: go for a receiver. 520 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. That's kind of where I stand here, Randy, 521 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: because I love the league neighbors. He's just so explosive 522 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 2: against the ball in his hands. He goes from zero 523 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 2: to fifty in a second. I mean, I was here 524 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 2: at Aldough Beckham's first three or four years before he 525 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: broke his ankle when he caught those ten yards slants 526 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: against Baltimore and boom seventy five yard touchdowns. That's what 527 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 2: my league neighbors looks like to me, that type of 528 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: explosive athlete. But I also think that in the Giants' 529 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: current wide receiver room, with the speed of high at 530 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: the slot play of Wandel Robinson, the speed of Slaton, 531 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: I think a big bodied wide receiver like Roma Dunsa 532 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: would really fit in perfectly in that group. So how 533 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: do you balance that where maybe the great on Neighbors 534 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: is slightly higher, but you think a Dounzay's a better 535 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 2: fit with your team. 536 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's the art of team building, right, 537 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: And that's why you have to get into precise discussions 538 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: internally on identifying the criteria you want and then prioritizing 539 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: that criteria. There won't ever be a tie. There will 540 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: be a criteria that they set that a certain receiver 541 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: might score higher on the most highest priority in their scheme. 542 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: But I'm with you on a doesday. I think he's 543 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: the combination of the two guys together. By self, I 544 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: think you've got Harrison, the big guy on the front side, 545 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: then you've got Neighbors, the smaller guy. I'm not sure 546 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: a DUSA isn't the best of both worlds. He's kind 547 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: of the combination of all of them. And if you 548 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: know the kids background, you knew the kids work ethic, 549 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: you knew where it comes from. I'm wanting that on 550 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: my team on any day, and I understand that. In fact, 551 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: as we speak, I think the Ohio State Pro Day 552 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: is happening. I don't think Harrison is going to do anything. 553 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: Nope. 554 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: That doesn't really register great for me. But I understand 555 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: he's a good enough player. What he's I think the 556 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: gamble he's taking by not working out is that he's 557 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: gambling that everybody sees on film everything that they need 558 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: like he does, or like his advisors think they should. 559 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: But NFL evaluators are very critical and they take a 560 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: lot of selling, they take a lot of to get 561 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: on their side, a lot of recruiting. If they don't 562 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: see something, and if he does nothing to help close 563 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: that gap, it may cost him. So there's a little 564 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: bit of a gamble there. I don't have any doubts 565 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: about a Duzey, So that may solve some of the 566 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: issues right there. 567 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 2: His toughness that in Tangibles, teams are gonna fall in 568 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 2: love with him. He is the opposite of the diva 569 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: wide receiver everything I've heard, so I totally get where 570 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: you're coming from on that. And I think, and you know, 571 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: the Giants had an LSU receiver here, that there was 572 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: some off the field stuff that you know, there there 573 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: were things, and I don't think there's any worry that 574 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: that that at Dounez would be that type of guy, 575 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: and I for neighbors isn't that type of guy either, 576 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: by the way, But I from everything I know, Dounzay 577 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: should not be that type of guy you mentioned the quarterbacks. 578 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 2: I'm with you. I have Kalla Williams standing alone as 579 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: the top quarterback in the class you mentioned you and 580 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: a guy or two that you may be like in 581 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: that next group more than others. Give me your evaluation 582 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: of kind of that next group of four or five quarterbacks. 583 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: Well, for me, I think the guy with the highest 584 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: ceiling and the guy who translates to the pro game 585 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: best is JJ McCarthy. You might think I'm crazy, but 586 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: he has the arm, he has the accuracy, he has 587 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: the ability to process, and I think better than all 588 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: the rest of these guys, for me, he has ability 589 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: to make tight window throws. He puts it in in 590 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: areas that are going to be at nfls on NFL Sundays. 591 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: Those are the throws you have to make. There's no 592 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: running around, there's no throwing into open spaces where guys 593 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: are on their way to get there. You don't have 594 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: those kind of open field throws. You've got to zip 595 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: it in too tight coverage and sometimes anticipate to throw 596 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: people open. And I have seen enough of that for 597 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: me to think that he can he will be able 598 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: to project to the next level very well. I like 599 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: Jayden Daniels as well. I think he's also a guy 600 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: that can process from the pocket. Eventually, as you know, 601 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: they make you throw from the pocket, You've got to process, 602 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: You've got to throw accurately and get it out on 603 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: time from the pocket. I think m McCarthy does that 604 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: best for me. I think Jaden does that second for me. 605 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: I'm not as high on the Drake may train, but 606 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: I understand Drake May maybe the flavor that some guys like, 607 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: and he may be a good pro. I'm not here 608 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: to pound Drake May. I just think the other guys 609 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: do some things that I think are more important, better 610 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: at this stage in their career. 611 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 2: All right, you set up my last topic perfectly, Randy, 612 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: because I think JJ McCarthy is a great rorshack test 613 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: of how you look at quarterbacks. And Kurt Warner has 614 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 2: been on Twitter talking about how he is difficulty evaluating 615 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 2: college quarterbacks right and land zier Line tweeted the other day, 616 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: who's done this for a long time draft evaluation does 617 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: a great job, does a lot of work in it 618 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 2: that he's found that NFL decision makers, GMS, position coaches, 619 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: OC's head coaches like JJ McCarthy a lot more than 620 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: the media and fan scouts people like me that watch 621 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 2: this stuff from a rudimentary basis. So I've gotten through 622 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: about half of McCarthy snatch. I think i'm through week 623 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: seven of his season. And I love the way he 624 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 2: throws over the middle. His accuracy on crossers, I think 625 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: is phenomenal, and I think willingness to throw over the 626 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: middle is huge. He's mobile. Don't love the deep ball 627 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: on tape. I don't think he gets enough arc on. 628 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: I think he's a little bit too line driving on 629 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: his deep throws. But I see and what I like 630 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: best about him, and I think it's a fair hit 631 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: on him that all right, Well, Michigan ran the ball 632 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: a lot. Teams are worried about the run. He's not 633 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 2: asked to do as much. But then you turn on 634 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: his third and long tape, and on third and seven 635 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: plus he's Domino like he's really good. So I'm slowly 636 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: kind of selling myself on the idea. So pardon me 637 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: for along with the question, what do you think NFL coaches, 638 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 2: GM's evaluators people like you are seeing in McCarthy that 639 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 2: someone like me either isn't seeing or maybe just because 640 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: we don't know enough, aren't capable of seeing. 641 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not sure you're not seeing at all. I 642 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: think you're seeing it because your description sounds a lot 643 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: like my evaluation. I think people are having a hard 644 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: time catching up to the evaluation with him. When I 645 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: studied the McCarthy stuff, it was probably late November early 646 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: December for me, and I said at the time, this 647 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: is the guy whose hair apparent to Caleb. It's not 648 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: any of these other guys. But nobody at that point 649 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: had had even mentioned him yet. I know NFL scouts 650 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: that had him as a third round grade, so they 651 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: weren't enough. They didn't see enough to connect the dots. Eventually, 652 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: what I figured was NFL coach who are a little 653 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: bit busy during the fall would actually look at the 654 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: tape in January, and GMS would do the same thing, 655 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: look at more tape in January, and knowing what I 656 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: know about making those decisions, they would raise this kid 657 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: up to where we're talking about him now is potential 658 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: going anywhere from two to six, two to ten per se. 659 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: So I don't know that you're seeing anything different. I 660 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: don't see anything that I don't like, other than I 661 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: think you're onto something with the deep ball. But you 662 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: see this kid layer and change trajectory on medium to 663 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: medium long range throws, So I think it's in there. 664 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: I think he can improve in that area. But for 665 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: the rest of his game, I just don't see the 666 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: holes in it. And I love the fact that he 667 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: just turned twenty one. If he goes with the right 668 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: offense and the right scheme, I think he has the 669 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: biggest upside as well, because you don't have to deprogram 670 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: him at all. He's been in a pro system, He's 671 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: understood being coached by pro people. There's really no connecting 672 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: of dots for the intangibles. Those are all apparent in 673 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: front of you. So I mean, I'm sounding like an 674 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: advertisement for JJ McCarthy. I like these other guys, but 675 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: I just think that that he I have less doubts 676 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: about McCarthy than any other guys. 677 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: You're ready for a change. Payday comes early with citizens, 678 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 3: so go to that retreat. Knew you moves to the country. 679 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 3: Now you're raising goats and launching a lifestyle brand. Are 680 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: you ready for all that life brings? 681 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: All right? 682 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: I want to touch on a couple more quarterbacks than 683 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: one general quarterback question, Randy, This has been fantastic. I 684 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: really appreciate the time Drake May. I'm a big fan 685 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 2: of much like McCarthy. I think he's willing to throw 686 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: it into small windows in the middle of the field, 687 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 2: and he makes a lot of NFL throws on his tape. Now, 688 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 2: the problem is that he's a little scattershot in there, right, 689 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: and sometimes the ball can be a little over the place, 690 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: and sometimes I think he presses a lot, and the 691 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: decision making can maybe not sometimes be the best at times. 692 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: But I wonder how much of that has to do 693 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: with the situation he was in in Carolina. Where he 694 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 2: gets in a better situation, where there's better things going 695 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: on around him, where he's gonna be able to clean 696 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: some of that stuff up and some of the raw 697 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: tools will be able to show out a little bit 698 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: better when he gets into a better situation with better 699 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 2: players around them. 700 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think the decision making is 701 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: somewhat problematic for me, But I think more than anything. 702 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: For me with Drake May is I don't see the 703 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: arm strength, I don't see the accuracy as things that 704 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: are really going to improve His release for me is 705 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: it's a little long at times. It just doesn't come 706 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: out with any ooph like I like it now. I 707 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: didn't find myself saying wow much when I watch the tape. 708 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: When I watch some of these other guys, especially with McCarthy, 709 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: especially with Caleb, I would say wow, wait way more 710 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: than I probably should have, because I'm not one of 711 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: those up and down guys that react to every play 712 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: or really every good I don't need to see a 713 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: guy's best game to decide how I feel about him. 714 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: So I just I don't think physically it's all there 715 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: for me when I watch the Drake May stuff. Much 716 00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: like and I'm not saying he's this guy, but much 717 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: like when I watched Mac Jones and the year he 718 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: came out, you heard all the talk about Mac Jones, 719 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: this Mac Jones that I just never saw it physically, 720 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: and I'm a little not maybe to that level, but 721 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit like that. When I watched Drake 722 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: May's stuff, it's just not physically all the tools that 723 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: I want. Well, it's funny when you ask a lot 724 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: of people about Drake May and you'll be a good 725 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 1: judge of this. Most of the time. The first thing 726 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: out of people's mouth is well, he's six ' four, 727 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: he's two hundred and twenty two pounds. That comes out 728 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: right away, right, And I understand that the frame matters. 729 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: I understand that the guy's size matters, and that's the 730 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: way you draw him up. But come off of that 731 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: and then to evaluate some of the other things. I 732 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: just didn't see much wow in his game. I kept 733 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: waiting to see more. 734 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: I want to jump into the two potential listen to 735 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: the Giants end up going receiver at six, right, but 736 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: you still want to maybe get another quarterback in the 737 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: building to let Brian Dable get his hands on him 738 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 2: develop him. Do you think Bo Nicks and Michael Pennix 739 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: might drop into round two in this draft with the 740 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 2: medicals on Pennick scare people and off. I know you're 741 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: a pretty big Penis guy. Listening to your podcast with 742 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: Mike Sando, your thoughts on those two guys and what 743 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: those are worthy day two investments as guys you can 744 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: maybe develop into a starter down the road. 745 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's possible. I think the medical stuff 746 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: will be a big thing with Pennix, without a doubt. 747 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: I think panics for me between those two, I mean, 748 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: I would just welcome people to watch both their games 749 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: against each other. I don't think there was a lot 750 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: of comparison. I thought Kennix is one of those guys 751 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: for me, John that that when I watched him, even 752 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: at the Senior Bowl, He's just got a throwing motion 753 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: at I could watch him throw all day. I just 754 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: want to watch him. I just and I watch him 755 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: throw to neighbor kids. I don't I don't care who 756 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: he's throwing to. 757 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: Which is, by the way, usually left. These are a 758 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: little wonky, right. 759 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: Yes, I love watching him throw, especially deep balls, so 760 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say that he can't do it now. 761 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: The loibility sometimes bothers me with him because, as we know, 762 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: pockets are seldom clean in the NFL, and you're gonna 763 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: have to move. I see him moving a little bit 764 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: within the pocket, kind of reset in his feet, so 765 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: that's there. He's not gonna take off and run for 766 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: yards in the NFL, So that's a little bit problematic 767 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: for me. Bo Nicks is a little bit all over 768 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: the place, and I'm guilty of my first impression being 769 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: at Auburn, and I have a hard time erasing that 770 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: from my memory bank because that wasn't pretty. I mean, basically, 771 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: he got fired at Auburn and that's why he went 772 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: to Oregon. So there's a lot of things that I 773 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: remember seeing at Auburn that I just struggle getting rid 774 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: of in my own mind when you see it with 775 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: your own two eyes. So I think he has potential 776 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: to improve. I don't think he's anywhere near being an 777 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: NFL quarterback yet, But if you could get a guy 778 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: like that in the second or third round and you're 779 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: Sean Payton or somebody who I know can really work 780 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: and develop quarterbacks, maybe that makes some sense. I think 781 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: it's probably a mistake for someone to jump up in 782 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: the first round to recreate something that may or may 783 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: not be there for me that's feeling need, and I 784 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: think there will be other positional players that teams value 785 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: more to help their team build than a project, so 786 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: to speak, at quarterback. 787 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: That makes sense, all right, one general quarterback question. Then 788 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna close with the Daniel Jones question. Why do 789 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 2: you think quarterback are so difficult now to evaluate going 790 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: or have always been really to go from college to 791 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: the pros. Why do you think there are so many misses? 792 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 2: I know for someone like me. You know, for example, 793 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 2: when some of these front office guys talk about JJ McCarthy, 794 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: based on some of the reporting I've seen, they're like, well, 795 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 2: you know what he sees pre snap, he gets to 796 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 2: where he needs to go, he reads the you know, 797 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: levels of the defense, he hits the right guys. You know, 798 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: for someone like me, I think that's hard to evaluate. 799 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 2: I think NFL teams are much better and coaches are 800 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: much better at seeing that than I am. Is they 801 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 2: understand what the play is, what they're supposed to be 802 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: looking at, where they're supposed to go. But for GM, 803 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: what for you is the most difficult thing about trying 804 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: to project a college quarterback to the NFL, which has 805 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: proven to be a very difficult thing over the years 806 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 2: in the NFL considering the first round hit rates. 807 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the number one thing for me, John 808 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: is the ability to process information, and that only that 809 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily always come post snap, it comes pre snap 810 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: as well. The college game is totally different. These college 811 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: kids can they might get eighty eighty five plays in 812 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: a college game. We don't get that many. They might 813 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: fire the coach by the time we get the eighty 814 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: five players. That's how quick things happen at the NFL level. 815 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: But my point is that they have to process tons 816 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: of information pre snap post snap that we can't wait 817 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: till the quarterback comes off to decidher what they did, 818 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: or wait to make a halftime adjustment. It doesn't happen. 819 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: We get fifty five plays. We got to do it 820 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: on the spot. So the ability to process matters, and 821 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: you alluded to it a little bit in your evaluations. 822 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: I think it is hard sometimes for people to figure 823 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: out what he's been asked to do. Sometimes the schemes 824 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: limit how many options a quarterback has, especially at the 825 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: college level, because they can afford to just call plays. 826 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: And there's a difference between call and plays and instituting 827 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: running an NFL offense, where the scheme matters, answers matter 828 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: on the field matters right now, and in college it's 829 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: not like that you can afford in college to call 830 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: a play if it doesn't work, going to huddle, call 831 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: another play, come run it. You don't have to change 832 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: all the time. But there are some schemes that ask 833 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: these quarterbacks to process and to do different things all 834 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: the time, including call protections, and those are the systems 835 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: I think where quarterbacks can come out of sooner and 836 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: play at the NFL level. So that's a long answer, 837 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: I apologize, but it is processing of information if you 838 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: want to break it down. 839 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 2: No, I think that's a fantastic answer. Right, final question, Randy, 840 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: before we say goodbye, how would you handle and you know, 841 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: the game again to the specific so you can just 842 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 2: think about your thought process on it. With what the 843 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 2: Giants have in Daniel Jones. Obviously they liked them well 844 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 2: enough last offseason to give them the contract they gave them. 845 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 2: They also gave themselves an out in that contract, right 846 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: and your structure and wise, you see, you give yourself that. 847 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 2: Then the next year he has a ton of injuries. 848 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 2: He has a second neck injury, he has an ACL 849 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: so now you're worried about an injury issue moving forward. 850 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 2: But he also didn't play well. But the circumstances around 851 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: them in those games was just terrible. Loses his left tackle, 852 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: loses Saquon Barkley. You're playing teams like the Dolphins the 853 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 2: Cowboys of forty nine are some of the best teams 854 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: in the NFL, and he admittedly struggled in those games, 855 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 2: but the sample size was small and the line was terrible, 856 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 2: and there wasn't a lot of good things going on 857 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: around him. How would you handle that moving forward? Here 858 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 2: in terms of prioritizing a cowboy in the draft? Is 859 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 2: just adding a guy like Drew Long good enough, then 860 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: you can attack it the following year. But you don't 861 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: want to be picking this high again, right, So do 862 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 2: you want to strike when the iron's hot? How would 863 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 2: you just go about that whole process? Like the Giants 864 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 2: are right now at Daniel Jones. 865 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 1: Well, I would say this, If the quarterback that they 866 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: love is there at six, I think you almost have 867 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,479 Speaker 1: to pick him, because you're right, you'll never be picking 868 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: up there again. If you are, somebody else is probably 869 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: making the picks. So if you have a guy that 870 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: you really like, that you think is your future for 871 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: ten fifteen years, then you've got to pick him. Regarding 872 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: Daniel Jones, I think at some point it's a lot 873 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: like we talked about with Evan Neil. At some point 874 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: Daniel has to get better at some point he has 875 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: to play. And I've been a Daniel Jones fan since 876 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: his freshman year at Duke, and I remember being in 877 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: the press box at Duke during that year. I was 878 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: with the Chargers at the time, saying, this kid's got 879 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,959 Speaker 1: all the skill set. I see the upside, I see 880 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: the talent, but there's come a time when for me, 881 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: he just hasn't developed. And he's had apple stops along 882 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: the way where I've seen signs of it. In Dave 883 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: Ball's first year, Shane's first year, I thought they got 884 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: more out of him than at any time, including his 885 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 1: four years at Duke, where he got better. So that's 886 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure why they gave the contract they did. They 887 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: see the upside, but when you got to stay healthy 888 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: and two you've got to continue to develop and play 889 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: really good. I don't know the answer to how long 890 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: we wait. I think you wait as long as you 891 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: don't have a better option. But if you have a 892 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: better option, and you think a quarterback there at six 893 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: is a better option, you almost have to act on it. 894 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: Nothing detrimental about Daniel Jones. It's just that we got 895 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: to do what's right for the Giants. 896 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 2: That's a great answer, Randy, I've already mentioned a lot 897 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 2: of the stuff. You're up to tell the folks. Anything 898 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: else you want them to know before we say goodbye. 899 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: No, I'm not here to sell anything. I'm here to 900 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,280 Speaker 1: talk ball, and I do love my gig. The platform 901 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: that the athletic has given me has been awesome. And 902 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 1: you mentioned the Football GM podcast that comes out Saturday mornings. 903 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: Mike Sando and I, they're national writer, have known each 904 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: other for thirty years. Most of the fans know I 905 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: spent twenty years with the Seahawks, and I'm a Seattle 906 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: guy and so's Mike, so we go way back. I 907 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: get a lot of kick out of that. But they've 908 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: allowed me a little platform to write as well. And 909 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: I love to watch films, so that's a good way 910 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: to express what I see on film. 911 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 2: Randy, you do awesome work and that's why we had 912 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 2: john We really appreciate it. Thank you for joining us, 913 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 2: everybody on the Johnson Podcast, brought to you by Citizens, 914 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: the official bank of the Giants. Thank you to Randy Mueller. 915 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. Everybody