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Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound on

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Speaker 1: when our budget support. Ukraine can't win the war. It

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Speaker 1: needs both the military assistance and the budget support. The

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Speaker 1: Chinese are playing hardball here. The United States has been

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Speaker 1: pushing back Bloomberg Sound on politics, policy and perspective from

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Speaker 1: DC's top name. So we need to pay the bill

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Speaker 1: that we've already approved. This is not a conversation about

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Speaker 1: utra spending. We're thirty one trillion in debt to debt ceilings,

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Speaker 1: a check on the debt and our fiscal path is unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: Sloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. TikTok

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Speaker 1: is now in five partisan cross heres. I'm proud to

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Speaker 1: stand here with some of our co sponsors on the

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Speaker 1: Restrict Act, which will give the President and more specifically,

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Speaker 1: the Secretary of Commerce new authorities to mitigate the threats

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Speaker 1: posed by technology products from adversarial nations. Senator Mark Warner,

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Speaker 1: Democrat from Virginia, are announcing the legislation, the Restrict Act,

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Speaker 1: as you heard him call it, endorsed by Democrats and

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Speaker 1: Republicans who share the stage with him, including Whip John

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Speaker 1: Thune and Republican Mitron. We're talking about a major piece

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Speaker 1: of competitive and foreign policy legislation. When we come together,

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Speaker 1: it says that Congress is recognized that China is not

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Speaker 1: our dear friend. The Chinese Communist Party that is, is

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Speaker 1: not our dear friend. But to be clear here, this

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Speaker 1: is not specifically a ban on TikTok not a proposal

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Speaker 1: to do so. Listen again to Senator Warrant. Their strict

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Speaker 1: Act would give the Secretary of Commerce the authority and

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Speaker 1: the responsibility to identify and counter threats from foreign technology

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Speaker 1: products and services in the US. A series of mitigation

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Speaker 1: tools given to the Secretary up to and including the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to band okay. And we in fact spoke with

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Speaker 1: Secretary Gina Romando about that, the Commerce Secretary just last

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Speaker 1: week here at Bloomberg. So, if what we're worried about

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Speaker 1: is Chinese backed companies being on you know, tens of

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Speaker 1: millions of American phones, including members of the military, and

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Speaker 1: privacy concerns, data concerns, misinformation concerns, that doesn't just apply

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Speaker 1: to TikTok okay. But this is where opinions begin to

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Speaker 1: diverge here in Washington. Do you go for the broad

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Speaker 1: scope like this give them the tools to go after

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Speaker 1: whoever they want, or does Marco Rubio actually have the

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Speaker 1: right idea with a band specifically in legislative language, a

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Speaker 1: ban on this thing called TikTok, which clearly not everyone

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Speaker 1: is familiar with. Senator Joe Manchin was at the event

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Speaker 1: as well. I can't say that I know a whole

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Speaker 1: lot about TikTok? Can I ask a question here? Because

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Speaker 1: I called my granddaughters who are recent graduates to college graduates.

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Speaker 1: But if I could ask it, just show hands, Maybe

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Speaker 1: how many of y'all used TikTok? Come on, nobody really? Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's just say this. We asked for your advice. So

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Speaker 1: I call my granddaughters and I said, tell me about

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Speaker 1: this TikTok. Oh? They said, we use it all the time.

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Speaker 1: They said, oh yeah, all our friends. All are you

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Speaker 1: having friends? Now? These are twenty two to twenty five

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Speaker 1: year olds, and they said, oh yeah, that's what I said.

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Speaker 1: I said, well, we have a concern. They said, oh please,

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Speaker 1: you know, be careful what you do here because it's

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Speaker 1: something how we communicate and we all enjoy it. Don't

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Speaker 1: you dare ban the TikTok on us? He went on

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Speaker 1: to say, hey, maybe they'd be looking for a different

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Speaker 1: American style TikTok? You guys ever heard of Instagram? All right,

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Speaker 1: let's get to our conversation here. I've been looking forward

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Speaker 1: to it because we need to make sense of this.

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Speaker 1: And Emily Kilcrease is here to help us, Senior fellow

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Speaker 1: and director of the Energy Economics and Security Program here

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Speaker 1: at the Center for a New American Security. Emily, thanks

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Speaker 1: for joining. I've been talking about ways to ban TikTok

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Speaker 1: or do something here in Washington. They've already hit it

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Speaker 1: on government devices, as we know. But what is the

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Speaker 1: right approach here? Do you go broad and allow this

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Speaker 1: to apply to any number of foreign companies or does

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Speaker 1: Marco Rubio have the right idea in specifically and explicitly

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Speaker 1: banning TikTok? Yeah? So clearly this effort from Senator Warner

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Speaker 1: and his co sponsors is intended to address TikTok. Right,

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Speaker 1: So there's a shared concern among members of Congress to

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Speaker 1: get at that particular issue. But folks who are following

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Speaker 1: this issue will no, this is certainly not the only

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Speaker 1: sort of foreign technology that's raised concerns in the United States.

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Speaker 1: We've had long conversations about the risk presented by Huawei

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Speaker 1: and five G infrastructure. There's been concerns raised about Kaspersky,

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Speaker 1: the Russian anti virus software used in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and so the fact that we have this wide range

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Speaker 1: of concerns actually, to me argues for a broader approach

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Speaker 1: that allows the government, flexible, nimble authorities to go after

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Speaker 1: a range of concerns and not just limited to TikTok.

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Speaker 1: It'll be limited, though, if you will, to the Commerce Department. Right,

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Speaker 1: So this becomes an administration issue, and different administrations could

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Speaker 1: have different ideas about what's appropriate. Right, Well, that's surely

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Speaker 1: it is limited to the Secretary of Commerce, and there

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Speaker 1: is a high bar set for prohibiting transactions. That's an

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Speaker 1: action that needs to be taken by the president. That's

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Speaker 1: intentionally a high bar. I do think Congress is interested

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Speaker 1: in conducting quite a bit of oversight on the set

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Speaker 1: of authorities. So I'd expect them to continue to weigh

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Speaker 1: and have fully on this photo issue. Does this pass?

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Speaker 1: Is this the bill that actually gets the votes? You know?

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Speaker 1: I think it might. It was quite interesting to see

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Speaker 1: that immediately after the bill came out yesterday, you saw

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Speaker 1: the statement from National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan clearly putting

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Speaker 1: the White House wait behind it. It's got bipartisan support,

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Speaker 1: so I think this is one that could have legs. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's say that takes place. Now you're laying the

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Speaker 1: groundwork for potentially a lot of action by the Commerce Secretary.

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Speaker 1: TikTok is the talker because it's so popular. All of

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Speaker 1: our kids are on it. Joe Mansion's calling as grandkids

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Speaker 1: to find out what the heck it is. But there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of other companies to your point, that

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Speaker 1: aren't household names or are they just as much a

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Speaker 1: part of this. In terms of the intentions of this bill,

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Speaker 1: I know it allows for action on any number of companies,

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Speaker 1: but are we about to see a broad move against

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Speaker 1: Chinese and Russian tech companies? So it's going to be

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Speaker 1: really important for the Commerce Department if this passes, to

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Speaker 1: issue guidance and regulations properly scoping and providing some transparency

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Speaker 1: around how they intend to use this authority. Keep in

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Speaker 1: mind the Trump administration trying to do something similar through

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Speaker 1: an executive order process, and there were a ton of

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Speaker 1: concerns because that authority was broad. It was still defined.

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Speaker 1: I think the Yan team and the congressional sponsors of

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Speaker 1: this legislation are trying to learn from that experience, and

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Speaker 1: so I would look at this particular bill as the

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Speaker 1: starting point. There's going to need to be more regulation

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Speaker 1: and guidance to give some sort of clarity and predictability

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Speaker 1: to the private sector about what's in and what's out.

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Speaker 1: Bye Dance, the company that owns TikTok, has been in

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Speaker 1: damage control mode, emily outlining plans today to spend a

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Speaker 1: billion and a half dollars on three data centers in

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Speaker 1: Europe that would store data of TikTok's European users one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million strong. And there's already this Project

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Speaker 1: Texas in the US in which TikTok is assuring concerned

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Speaker 1: governments or trying to that the Chinese government cannot access

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Speaker 1: Europeans data or US data through the front door, or

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Speaker 1: any of the is going to work in terms of

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Speaker 1: convincing people about what they're doing with our info. Like

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Speaker 1: TikTok is clearly in spin mode, it is facing an

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Speaker 1: existential threat because of some of these regulatory actions that

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Speaker 1: may be coming down the pike, both in the United

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Speaker 1: States and Europe, you'll hit India, which is already banned TikTok.

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Speaker 1: They do have a big credibility gap that they need

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Speaker 1: to overcome. There is the reporting recently around some of

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Speaker 1: the potential access for reporters data on their platform. There

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Speaker 1: was earlier reporting about the continued access of engineers in

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Speaker 1: China to US person's data. There have been a lot

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Speaker 1: of missteps on the part of TikTok, but I think

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Speaker 1: our going to present a real issue as they're working

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Speaker 1: with policymakers, because policymakers don't feel like they can really

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Speaker 1: trust them at this point. Yeah, this is, by the way,

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Speaker 1: an opportunity for other tech companies, right, I mean Facebook, rising,

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Speaker 1: Instagram rising, Twitter, I presume rising in the wake of

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Speaker 1: what could be a huge vacuum in the social media world. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: if TikTok is put out of business in the United States,

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Speaker 1: that does create an an opportunity, whether it's you know,

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Speaker 1: existing platform or perhaps a new platform. Right, lots of

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Speaker 1: concerns around on Twitter and Meta as well. So clearly

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Speaker 1: the desire for this sort of social media platform is there,

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Speaker 1: and who fills it in the future I think is

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Speaker 1: a bit of an open question. Well, I have a

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old at home on all of these platforms,

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Speaker 1: but TikTok outranks them all in terms of popularity. It's

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Speaker 1: clear that that's the case in young people. Maybe not

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Speaker 1: Joe Manchin, but his grandkids could vpend themselves around all

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Speaker 1: kinds of firewalls and different geographical locations to still be

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Speaker 1: on TikTok. If it's only banned here in the US,

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Speaker 1: much like some of the crypto stuff that we've seen,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it just go offshore? And absolutely could? It depends

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Speaker 1: on how many jurisdictions it's banned in. I've ex banned enough,

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Speaker 1: so maybe that becomes less viable. And also, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's an inconvenience. It introduces friction into the system. I

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Speaker 1: do think if there is a move to ban it,

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Speaker 1: I think the government will be working with, for example,

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Speaker 1: app stores and infrastructure providers to try to make sure

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Speaker 1: that those sorts of workarounds are really addressed so that

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Speaker 1: they can really get at what they see as a

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Speaker 1: genuine national security concern. Emily, thanks for talking us through this,

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Speaker 1: Emily Kilcrease. We'll see what happens with it. Maybe we'll

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Speaker 1: be back in touch at some point. Pretty soon if

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Speaker 1: this thing passes with the Center for a New American

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Speaker 1: Security on the TikTok bill, but don't call it that.

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Speaker 1: It's the restrict Act. It does more than just banned TikTok.

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Speaker 1: In fact, TikTok is not mentioned. We assemble our panel

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Speaker 1: now for their take on this. Genie Schanzano, who is

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Speaker 1: on TikTok and by the way, a bit of a star.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this could really pop the balloon here for

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Speaker 1: Genie Bloomberg politics contributor and Democratic analysts. It's nice to

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Speaker 1: have you here with us. Genie, and Kristin Davison is

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Speaker 1: here too, senior vice president Axiom Strategy's current senior political

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Speaker 1: advisor to Governor Glenn Junkin. Genie, talk to me about

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Speaker 1: this because your TikTok account might be going away. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I love the fact you kickoff sound

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Speaker 1: on today. First segment, All female, Way to go, Joe Mary,

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Speaker 1: all right, I love that International Women's Deck. Yes and Yes,

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Speaker 1: as soon as I get on TikTok and figure it out,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to drag Joe Mansion with me. They're going

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Speaker 1: to ban it. I could just see it happening. It's

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Speaker 1: deadly you know, I think there this is looking a

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Speaker 1: lot more like it could pass, and it has so

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Speaker 1: much bipartisan support, But I think there are such enormous

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Speaker 1: questions about this. So you know, you look at this

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Speaker 1: one hundred million users for ninety minutes a day, that

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Speaker 1: makes it much more widely popular than the president or

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Speaker 1: Congress as we march into a twenty four election, are

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Speaker 1: they really going to take this step or is this

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Speaker 1: an effort to pressure the company, to pressure byte Dance,

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Speaker 1: Because of course we know that the federal government has

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Speaker 1: negotiated with them and Benna negotiations to get assurances that

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Speaker 1: they can keep operating in the US. So I think

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Speaker 1: it's a big question over with whether this is more

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Speaker 1: posturing or are they're really going to go for some

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Speaker 1: kind of ban um, you know, as we merch into

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Speaker 1: this electoral season. I think that would be risky for uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, both Republicans and Democrats. They may do it,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's stunning if they do it. To me,

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Speaker 1: what's what's the risk is because you're going to be

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Speaker 1: upset or the kids are going to be upset? Is

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Speaker 1: is this not good politics? Kristen? Well, look, I think

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Speaker 1: the bigger risk here and one that has you know,

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Speaker 1: we're going to say the quiet part out loud here

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Speaker 1: is the existential threat that China is posing to the

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Speaker 1: United States. This is bigger than TikTok. TikTok is kind

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Speaker 1: of a trendy way and and um, you know, being

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Speaker 1: able to put an actual um then that people understand

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Speaker 1: and interests their everyday life. But we have you know,

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Speaker 1: there are balloons flying over the country. We have TikTok.

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Speaker 1: We have Chinese companies trying to you know, use American

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Speaker 1: companies as projan horses to get a footprint in different states.

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Speaker 1: We have the Chinese government trying to buy farmland in

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Speaker 1: certain states. And so there is a general consensus from

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Speaker 1: the politics side of it that especially President Biden, either

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Speaker 1: doesn't understand the threat that China is posing or he's

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Speaker 1: just taking a very slow approach to tackling it. And

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Speaker 1: so TikTok, the fact that we have a bipartisan group

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Speaker 1: of senators that is not a word that you hear

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Speaker 1: too often anymore up there, that are coming together and

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Speaker 1: recognizing TikTok as a threat. Yeah, you know, you've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of governors, not just Republicans, but ath the

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Speaker 1: democratic governors that are banning TikTok on government devices. It

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Speaker 1: sounds like you favor a broader approach, though, Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Kristen as opposed to simply banning TikTok, create the tool,

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Speaker 1: create the opportunity to go after whoever you well, I

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Speaker 1: think that you know to to you know, there needs

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Speaker 1: to be obviously a check and balance and a confirmation

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Speaker 1: that the threat is real. I think that right now

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Speaker 1: we are not in danger of confirming with the threat

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Speaker 1: of China is real, where we are in danger of

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Speaker 1: not taking the threat seriously enough. And so this is

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Speaker 1: bigger than TikTok. China has one goal, and that's world

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Speaker 1: domination at the expense of the United States, and TikTok

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Speaker 1: is one tool that they have. And clearly not just Republicans,

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Speaker 1: but some Democrats are now recognizing as a way for

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Speaker 1: China to not only threaten our security, but get into

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Speaker 1: our homes and to get into our children's hands. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it should be a concern that we don't just

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Speaker 1: take lightly. And so I think it is promising to

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Speaker 1: see that senators and folks can we see are putting

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Speaker 1: politics aside and coming together to address it. UM. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this this bill sounds like the most

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Speaker 1: promising effort to do that. Genie, are you surprised that

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Speaker 1: the White House got involved here? This is something that's

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Speaker 1: been evolving over the course of months, and to see

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Speaker 1: Jake Sullivan kind of fallen behind it the way he

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Speaker 1: did speaking for the President, it's a big deal. It

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Speaker 1: is a big deal. But again they have been in

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Speaker 1: negotiations and I think, you know, to focus just on TikTok.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad the bill doesn't just focus on TikTok, because

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Speaker 1: that really misses the point. Where are we, for instance,

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Speaker 1: on legislation regarding privacy laws in this country. The Chinese

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Speaker 1: government could easily, even if this band goes into effect,

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Speaker 1: buy American user data. So you know, this is, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a small step in that direction. But you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the VPNs to work around it. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: do that, Joe Matthew, by the way, I will not.

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Speaker 1: Your students will, though they will, and so are my children.

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Speaker 1: But we have the same issue in our house. I think,

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Speaker 1: all right, Honey, canceled the VPN. Genie Chanzano, stay with us,

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Speaker 1: Kristen Davison as we move ahead on Bloomberg Sound On

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Speaker 1: in a conversation ahead with former Congressman Tim Ryan. This

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg So Long with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: We've been bringing you dispatches from Sierra Week, of course,

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Speaker 1: the energy conference that's underway in Texas. Yeah, they're back,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of talk about not only investing in

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Speaker 1: fossil fuels to get us through the transition to green energy,

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Speaker 1: but actually harnessing that transition, giving it a timeline and

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Speaker 1: policy to make it work. We heard yesterday from John Kerry,

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Speaker 1: of course, the former Secretary of State who's now the

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Speaker 1: so called climate Czar at the White House, and with

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Speaker 1: us today from Sierra Week is Tim Ryan. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: former congress from from Ohio we talk so much about

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Speaker 1: during election season is now co chair of Natural Allies

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Speaker 1: for a Clean Energy Future, and Congressman. I want to

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Speaker 1: welcome you back to Bloomberg. It's great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: You've been talking a lot about clean energy, not only

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Speaker 1: with the Natural Allies but also with Third Way. This

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Speaker 1: seems to be your new mission. Is that fair to say? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: It's a you know, I think it's an important part

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Speaker 1: of you know, fixing the issues that we have with climate,

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Speaker 1: but also making sure we're creating good jobs here. It

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Speaker 1: has national security implications. It's an opportunity to you know,

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Speaker 1: put Vladimir Putin in his place and help our friends,

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Speaker 1: you know, decarbonize around in the world by shipping our

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Speaker 1: natural gas. So it's checks a lot of boxes for

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Speaker 1: things that I'm passionate about. So let's talk about it

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Speaker 1: for a moment, because I remember that that moment in

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Speaker 1: the State of the Union when President Biden kind of

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Speaker 1: revealed what was inside his brain ad living that we

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Speaker 1: might need fossil fuels for another ten years, and it

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Speaker 1: actually drew a laugh from people who were there because

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Speaker 1: ten years is not very long, certainly not as as

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Speaker 1: an investment horizon. And so I wonder what your thought

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Speaker 1: is on timeline and whether natural gas, because I think

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Speaker 1: that's what you're speaking to here, can actually bridge that gap. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that natural gas is going to be around

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Speaker 1: for a long time. And that's basically the argument that

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Speaker 1: Senator may Landru and I are trying to make two Democrats.

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Speaker 1: If you're interested in climate, if you're interested in reducing emissions,

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Speaker 1: we've got a plan for you, and that means using

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Speaker 1: natural gas to displace coal, which is being used in

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Speaker 1: significant ways all around the world. Germany is using more

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Speaker 1: coal today than they ever have a France is using

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Speaker 1: more coal because of what happened with the war with

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. China is building a natural or a coal

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Speaker 1: fired power plant like one a week. I mean that

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Speaker 1: the world is going back to coal. And what we

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Speaker 1: want to say is, you know, like my old congressional

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Speaker 1: district in eastern Ohio, Marcella Shale, you to Caschale, we

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Speaker 1: have natural gas here. It's way cleaner than coal. So

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Speaker 1: what do we fussing around with. We can make significant reductions,

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Speaker 1: create jobs, and then continue to invest in pair it

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Speaker 1: with renewables. But wind and solar can't handle the baseload

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Speaker 1: power right now, so you need you need natural gas

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Speaker 1: that can achieve both objectives. What do you hear from

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Speaker 1: the administration on this, Well, I think they're coming around

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Speaker 1: because I think they've seen the value in Europe with

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Speaker 1: Putin and they're watching everyone move back to coal. And

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Speaker 1: so if you have these goals, which we should have,

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Speaker 1: you've got to be pragmatic on how you get there.

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Speaker 1: And when you see that, you know, the United States

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Speaker 1: led the world from twenty or two thousand and five

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Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen, we had the most reduction in carbon

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Speaker 1: Why because natural gas displaced coal. So let's do that

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Speaker 1: around the world. And the problem is we've got certain

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Speaker 1: elements in the political system that want to keep it

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Speaker 1: in the ground and they want to fight it. And

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Speaker 1: what happens is like when you see what's happening in

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Speaker 1: New England. They've prevented natural gas from getting to New England.

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Speaker 1: Then they have a cold spell, a tough winner. What

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Speaker 1: do they start doing burning fuel oil? So the very

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Speaker 1: people that want to reduce emissions are the ones that

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Speaker 1: are forcing people, in order to survive and stay warm,

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Speaker 1: to use furn oil, which is one of one of

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Speaker 1: the last bastions of heating oil. As a as a

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Speaker 1: New England boy, I'm well aware. I know what your

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Speaker 1: former colleagues on the other side of the aisle are

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Speaker 1: going to tell you though, right, they're gonna say, hey,

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Speaker 1: look at India, look at China. These guys aren't even trying.

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Speaker 1: And to your point, you made it yourself, Tim Ryan.

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Speaker 1: So why should the US be so concerned about saving

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Speaker 1: the world when no one else is trying? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think we make it in their interest. I think if

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Speaker 1: we can provide them cheap and stable energy that's clean,

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Speaker 1: they'll move to use it. And and you know we

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, if you live in the coastal

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Speaker 1: city in the United States, you know you have an

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Speaker 1: obligation to you know, you know you're gonna you're gonna

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Speaker 1: face the consequences of this, and we have an obligation

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Speaker 1: to try to do it around the world. I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, when a lot of the you know, the

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Speaker 1: anti climate folks say, well, oow, this is great, but

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Speaker 1: what are they doing in jin or what are they

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Speaker 1: doing in it, they're right, They're right. And what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to do is solve that problem. And if we can,

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Speaker 1: if we can help our companies and workers here with pipelines,

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Speaker 1: get clean up the permitting process, do permitting reform, get

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Speaker 1: this stuff out in liquid natural gas to Europe and Asia,

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Speaker 1: companies here and make money good union workers, have good

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Speaker 1: middle class livings, and we help bend the curve on climate.

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Speaker 1: While we're doing the research and the hydrogen breakthrough or

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Speaker 1: whatever's next. We got to keep doing that as well.

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Speaker 1: But this is the pragmatic step that we have to

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Speaker 1: take Tim Ryan, It's great to have you with us

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Speaker 1: today on Bloomberg. Before you go, can I ask are

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Speaker 1: you are you enjoying not being in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the circus here in Washington. I feel very liberated, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm coaching my eight year old basketball team

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Speaker 1: and like streaming at the referee, So I like, you know,

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Speaker 1: my life has changed dramatically in the last few months. Bet,

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Speaker 1: I bet it has. I'm having a ball. I'm you know,

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Speaker 1: I get a lot of family time, hanging out with

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Speaker 1: the kids, hanging out with my wife, and you know,

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Speaker 1: fortunately she still loves me, so we're doing good. You

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Speaker 1: are fortunate. There are a lot of things I'd love

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about. You should come back and

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Speaker 1: see as soon. Tim Ryan, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 1: The former congressman from Ohio coach here now Natural Allies

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Speaker 1: for a Clean energy Future. I'll be curious to hear

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Speaker 1: what the panel thinks about any of this. Jeanie Schanzano

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Speaker 1: is with US Democratic analyst with Kristin Davison, a Republican

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Speaker 1: strategist with Axiom Strategies. Jeanie, what's your thought here when

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Speaker 1: you hear Tim Ryan? Remembering him in the throes of

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Speaker 1: that campaign battle with jd Vance showing up at Sero

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Speaker 1: week to push natural gas. Here the Life after Washington begins. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he sounds pretty good, right, one of the most

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Speaker 1: important voices in the Democratic Party, I think outside of Washington,

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Speaker 1: and this is an important conversation to have. I think

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Speaker 1: the real question here is going to be, can these

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Speaker 1: two Democrats, you know, Mary Landrew Tim Ryan, can they

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Speaker 1: speak to people like, for example, Joe Mansion, for whom

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Speaker 1: this issue has become a juggernaut, and can they make

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Speaker 1: the case as he said that this is a pragmatic

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Speaker 1: step in the right direction. And of course your conversation

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Speaker 1: coming just on the heels of these quite astonishing reports

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Speaker 1: about Nordstream too and who may have been the culprit

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Speaker 1: over there, so there is a lot at stake. He

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Speaker 1: mentioned it. You asked him the big question, which is

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Speaker 1: why should we be doing this if the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world isn't And he had a pretty good answer,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it's important. He started by saying, it's

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Speaker 1: a good question to ask, and people have a right

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Speaker 1: to ask it. How do you answer that question, Kristen,

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Speaker 1: when so many Republicans push back to say, hey, We're

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Speaker 1: a drop in the bucket when China is, to Tim

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Speaker 1: Ryan's point, opening a coal plant almost every day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. And actually listening to the former congressman made

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Speaker 1: me wonder if, you know, if he were so in

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Speaker 1: office today, would he side with someone like Joe Manson

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Speaker 1: who said that, you know, President Biden was I think

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Speaker 1: offensive and disgusting when he talked about shutting down coal

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Speaker 1: plants in the United States. And so looking at the

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Speaker 1: politics of this, the rift is really not Republican versus Democrat.

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Speaker 1: The Democrat Party is kind of battling within itself on

428
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: I think from the Republican standpoint, we should not be

429
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: the sole, you know, operator in terms of worrying about

430
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: about the climate when we do have folks like China

431
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: and others producing large amounts of missions and oping up

432
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: coal plants every single day. We do need to have

433
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: an all of the above clean energy approach, and that

434
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: includes coal and natural gas. And there's not just the

435
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: climate aspect of it. It's also the the e SG movement,

436
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: which is going to aim to shut down coal plants

437
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: in places like Kentucky and West Virginia based on you know,

438
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: environmental policies and that that is a huge blow to

439
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: American workers as the American energy supply, and it's something

440
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: that especially going into you know, if President Joe Biden

441
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: lens reelection, it is going to be a huge issue

442
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: that he's going to have to deal with, especially if

443
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: he faces a Democrat primary as too, does he sides

444
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: with He can't afford to died with the base of

445
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: the Democrat Party on these issues because he will lose

446
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: people in Ohio and Pennsylvania, Kentucky and West Virginia who

447
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: will lose that part of his party going into a

448
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: general election. So I think it is something very interesting

449
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: to watch to see how, you know, Republicans are pretty

450
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: we're pretty aligned on as a party that we need

451
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: to foxor American energy and approach really and all of

452
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: the above st of approach. Democrats are really having a

453
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: family battle on this to see how extreme they are

454
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: comfortable going and what we sacrifice alone as the United

455
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: States in the name of the environment. So, Jennie, how

456
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: does Joe Biden need to crystallize the message on energy

457
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: policy before he's talking about this in a presidential cycle. Yeah,

458
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: and I absolutely agree this is a battle within the

459
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Democratic family and it is one he's going to have

460
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: to confront. I need. I think the argument Joe Biden

461
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: needs to make is we don't want to find ourselves

462
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: in a position like Europe, did you know, moving to

463
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: nuclear so fast that they became, you know, dependent on

464
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: Russian NOI and then when that was cut off, dependent

465
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: on us and other forms of oil, and in this

466
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: crisis that they're facing with the costs. And in order

467
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: to do that, we have to think carefully about a plan,

468
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: and it has to be led from the top, from

469
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: the President and from Congress about how we are going

470
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: to move to things like natural energy and increase jobs,

471
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: help the climate, and make sure we're addressing issues like

472
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: national security. So they can make this case, but they're

473
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: going to have to make a case that it is

474
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: a step by step process and it's not going to

475
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: be an abrupt transition that leaves key aspects of the

476
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: country aside, like Ohio and other places. Geny Chanzano and

477
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: Kristen Davison, great conversation. Thank you both for being with us.

478
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us

479
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: live weekdays at five Eastern on Bloomberg dot com. Bihart

480
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: radio app and the Bloomberg Business app. We're listen on

481
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. Big budget drops tomorrow,

482
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: and we're talking about it all week, and it's been

483
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: slowly leaking out. That's how this goes. Right Tomorrow it's

484
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: the big event, and by then we'll probably have a

485
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: pretty good idea of what's in it. Yesterday we talked

486
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: about proposed tax hikes to pay for Medicare. Today it's

487
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: deficit reduction. The New York Times with the headline here

488
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: Biden set to detail three trillion dollars in measures to

489
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: reduce deficits. And you know that's been a big deal

490
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: for him recently. You know you're gonna hear from Republicans.

491
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: My god, that big spending democrat Biden. Man, he's taking

492
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: us in debt. Well, guess what. I reduced the federal

493
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: deficits this year by one trillion, four hundred billion dollars,

494
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: four hundred billion dollars, the most in all American history.

495
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: No one's ever reduced the debt that much. We cut

496
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: the federal debt in half. Yeah, that was back in November.

497
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: You notice he tends to raise his voice when he

498
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: gets to the mighty issue of deficit reduction. We're going

499
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: to talk to Mia mc ginnis about this. I'm joining

500
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: studio right now by Kaylee Lyons, who is kind enough

501
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: to be with us on Bloomberg Sound On now with

502
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: us in our Washington bureau. And you've got your decoder

503
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: ring on all budget speak already, so you're good to

504
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: go for this conversation. When you start hearing tax hikes, Kaylee,

505
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: and deficit reduction here, you start thinking about a new

506
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: Republican majority in the House and how in the world

507
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: that's going to see. Yeah, Rank, can you get it done.

508
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: It's one thing to say, hey, this is what I

509
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: would like to do in order to reduce the deficit.

510
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: It's another thing for that to actually come to fruition.

511
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: But really there's only two potential paths here, right You

512
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: either rain and spending or you raise revenue. That is

513
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: simply how the math works in this equation. And if

514
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: you don't want it to come to the revenue side,

515
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: then that's where the spending cuts come in. But when

516
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: you have so much that's untouchable, if defense is becoming untouchable,

517
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: you can't touch Social Security or medicare. What's left getting

518
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: pretty difficult. I spoke with barat Rama Murdy, the White

519
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: House Economic Advisor, yesterday, asked him, you know anywhere will

520
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: there be cuts in this plan and how does this

521
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: thing pass? His answer was pretty simple. The budget is

522
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: going to lay out his plan for how we can

523
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: continue to invest in America, protect social secure, lengthen the

524
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: solvency of Medicare by another twenty five years, continue to

525
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: bring down costs for families, and by the way, I

526
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: do all of that while reducing the deficit by more

527
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: than two trillion dollars over the next ten years. Joining

528
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: us to talk about it in real terms is Miam

529
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: again as the President of the Committee for a Responsible Budget, Maya.

530
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: It's great to have you. We need you now. I

531
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: know this is like Christmas Morning for you tomorrow. Right.

532
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm overdoing it. It's budget day though, and as

533
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: Kaylee and I take a look at what we've learned,

534
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: at least from here there will be at least a

535
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: couple trillion, maybe three trillion dollars in deficit reduction. But

536
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: you're making the point at the committee that it would

537
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: take many trillions more to actually balance the budget. So

538
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: we have to be clear about what we're talking about here,

539
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: don't we Well, that's right. So if what they're going

540
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: to do is have three trillion in savings in this budget,

541
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: I have to say that would be pretty good. It

542
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: is nowhere close to balancing the budget. It would actually

543
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: take sixteen trillion dollars in savings to balance the budget.

544
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: But that's not going to happen, and so I actually

545
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: think the best place to start is with realistic but

546
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: aggressive savings. I think what they're talking about three trillion

547
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: should be a floor. It's not going to get us

548
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: anywhere close to balance. It's not going to even get

549
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: us to the point where the debt isn't growing as

550
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: a share of GDP. It still will be, but it's

551
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: almost like building muscle memory, where you actually start to

552
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: get used to what it takes to bring the depths down.

553
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: Like you both were talking about, you have to raise

554
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: taxes and or you have to cut spending. And in

555
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: a moment when everybody is promising all the things they

556
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: won't do, I think it's really important to start the

557
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: discussion with these budgets that will actually lay out some

558
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: of those hard choices they would make. This budget is

559
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: going to make a lot of those hard choices on

560
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: the tax side. Well, maya you said and or there

561
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: that it's an and or on spending and taxes. Does

562
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: it not have to be both realistically to get the

563
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: budget balanced? Absolutely, I mean, first us again, we're not

564
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: going to get the budget balance probably in decade. We

565
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: have set it up in so many ways, with so

566
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: many programs with big growth, it's really out of reach.

567
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: But that's okay. If we can get it to a

568
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: point where the debt's not growing faster than the economy,

569
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: that would be stabilizing for our economic situation. But yeah,

570
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: we've got two sides who are making these really irresponsible promises,

571
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: promising not to raise revenues, promising not to touch social

572
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: security or Medicare benefits or defense. Yes, it has to

573
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: be both. There is not a credible plan out there

574
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: that will be really making fiscal progress that doesn't look

575
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: at both sides of the budget. And if we don't

576
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: break out of these two warring camps that take all

577
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: the kind of overlapped parts off the table, we're not

578
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: going to make any progress, and that will be bad

579
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: for the economy, for the budget, and for our national security.

580
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: Even the thing is maya some Republicans don't want to

581
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: take defense off the table. They want to see that

582
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: cut too, and they want to specifically see Ukrainian funding cut.

583
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: This budget is not going to show defense cuts, though,

584
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 1: is it. No. What we're hearing is that it's going

585
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: to have a rather healthy increase in defense spending. So

586
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: this is not a budget that is going to have

587
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: really any spending cuts that I can tell, with the

588
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: exception of prescription drugs. And let me just give a

589
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: shout out to I think what's the most important part

590
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: of the budget, which is that it does take measures

591
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: to increase the solvency of medicare, both by saving they're

592
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: doing some saving some prescription drugs, and they're doing some

593
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: new revenues that are going to go into enhancing medicare solvency.

594
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: That is a really important priority. What it doesn't do

595
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: social Security, the bigger program, which has a real problem

596
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: of hitting insolvency within the budget window, and I don't

597
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: think they're going to take any measures to save it.

598
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: If you don't want to cut benefits, you're going to

599
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: have to raise revenues or cut future benefits or look

600
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: at the retirement age. But apparently it doesn't sound I'm

601
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: not aware of any changes that they will make, and

602
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: that I don't understand how you justify having a budget

603
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: that shows Social Security will become insolvent and you're still

604
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: not willing to help fix the program that means massive

605
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: across the board benefit cuts for everybody on the program. Obviously,

606
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: this is a conversation we have frequently right budgets and

607
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: go on a very consistent basis, and yet this is

608
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: a unique moment in time, considering it also comes at

609
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: the time of a raging debate over the lifting of

610
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: the debt ceiling. It also comes at a major uncertain

611
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: macroeconomic time and a time when the cost of borrowing

612
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: is going higher. How much more difficult is it to

613
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: do this now, in this moment where everything feels just chaotic. Exactly,

614
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: it's so much more difficult. So the main reason it's

615
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: more difficult is the problem has gotten worse because they've

616
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: waited so long and they've become so much more polarized

617
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: and are barely functioning. I'm going to be to be polite,

618
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: they're barely functioning. There's really ridiculous how they're not getting

619
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: anything's done. But this is perhaps the most important year

620
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: of recent history for the budget because there's a real

621
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: threat about lifting the debt ceiling. We have to get

622
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 1: the debt ceiling increased, but we could use it as

623
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: an opportunity to make some fiscal reforms if they could

624
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: do it without chaos. We have a debt that is

625
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: out of control. We've just heard we're going to be

626
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: paying over ten trillion dollars on interest payments over the

627
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: next decade. That is a catastrophic waste of money. And

628
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: we have inflation that's still in bad shape. And the

629
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: fiscal policies where the president for the past two years

630
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: made the debt situation worse. Despite his claims about bringing

631
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: the death sit down, which isn't true. That deficit came

632
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: down on its own because of the changes in COVID policy,

633
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: the legislation and executive stuff he passed increased borrowing by

634
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: five trillion dollars. That makes inflation worse. So we need

635
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: this budget to help get us out of the debt

636
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: feeling challenge, deal with the debt problem, and fight inflation. MAYA,

637
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: what do you do on budget day? Do you have

638
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: any any special ritual? I'm guessing this is something that Yeah, no,

639
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: there's presence all over the House outfit. Yeah. No, Well,

640
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: it's an exciting day for the Committee for Responsible Federal Budget.

641
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: But this and what we really do is we spend

642
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: all our time trying to make this stuff accessible and

643
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: easy to understand. Because the numbers are trillions mean nothing

644
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: to most of us. Budget baselines are not a normal language,

645
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: and one of the problems we have is that people

646
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: actually don't understand any of these issues and why it

647
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: matters so much to family finances and our economic security

648
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: and again our national security. So we do our best

649
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: to decipher this in a way that hopefully people can understand,

650
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: and we'll reward their politicians for doing the right things.

651
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: Three trillion in savings, it's good. It's not enough, but

652
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: they should get you one thumbs up for that and

653
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: then be pushed to do a lot more. And then

654
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: hopefully the House and Senate budget committees will follow with

655
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: their own budgets and then they can get to the

656
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: real work of trying to reconcile the differences. Well, boy,

657
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: we got a lot of months ahead, don't we, hear Maya.

658
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: Thank you as always, your insights are important to us,

659
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: and we'll be looking for your reaction once we get

660
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: the real official official budget drop tomorrow. Miam again is

661
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: as president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.

662
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Matthew and Washington Hour or two here of

663
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: Bloomberg sound on joint in studio by Kaylee Lions is

664
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: with us now in Washington, DC, and I like to

665
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: think will be a fairly regular presence in this conversation

666
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: here when we think about the month it's ahead, we're

667
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: going to figure out the debt limit, which you know

668
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: you just went there months before. There's actually a budget

669
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: that is in place. So the question then becomes, how

670
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: does this timeline come together here? Because Kevin McCarthy says

671
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: they won't raise the debt limit without a budget deal. Right,

672
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: It's incredibly difficult, this navigation, and frankly, it's probably going

673
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: to come down to the wire, right, Isn't this the

674
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: story of how it goes? It's going to be a

675
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: ticking clock and we're all going to be waiting with

676
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: bated breath the great motivator as we now know, we're

677
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: looking at what somewhere between July and August, and we

678
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: want to add Emily Wilkins to the conversation. Of course,

679
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: Emily is work in the halls of Congress, speaking directly

680
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: with the leadership on a daily basis about the issues

681
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: that we talk about, and that's why we want to

682
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: connect with Emily as well. She was with Kevin McCarthy

683
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: last evening. He was dealing with a lot of matters

684
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: beyond the budget, including the whole January sixth thing on Fox,

685
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: which we're going to get to. But listen to Emily

686
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: Wilkins with a really important question here for the Speaker

687
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: of the House. Limit have used that a meeting with Biding?

688
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: Yet do you know when the Republican budget plan is

689
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: expected to come out? Biden hasn't said for a second

690
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: meeting yet. I know he said it to retreat that

691
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,479
Speaker 1: he had one, but I have not heard it. Hasn't

692
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: heard from him. Emily Wilkins, what's going on? This? Doesn't

693
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: this meeting need to happen now? It definitely needs to happen,

694
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: Joe and Kayley, But I mean right now, what we're

695
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: stage that we're at is that Republicans are waiting for

696
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: Biden to drop his budget that'll come out tomorrow. Expect

697
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: to see a bunch of Republicans complaining about various things

698
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: with it. Saying it doesn't go far enough. But then

699
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: House Republicans are supposed to come out with their own budgets,

700
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: and we actually had a budget chaired. Jody Arrington on

701
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: sound on the other week saying mid April. He's now

702
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: telling some other news organizations maybe the second week of May.

703
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: And so I think what we're looking for at this

704
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: point is really what is Biden going to offer on

705
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: the table? What are Republicans and the House going to

706
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: offer up on the table, and what kind of middle ground?

707
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: Is there any middle ground really between the two of them.

708
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: So we're talked about the White House in the House.

709
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: Where's the Senate in this? Realistically? Emily, I mean, are

710
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 1: we really only going to be negotiating between the White

711
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: House and one chamber of Congress? The Senate certainly has

712
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: been having conversations about this. I think the main reason

713
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: that you kind of see Biden and McCarthy emerging as

714
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: some of the key figures at this point is because

715
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: the bill is going to have to pass the House

716
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: of Representatives, which is controlled by Republicans, but in the

717
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: Senate it's controlled by Democrats. And so you know, if

718
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: for the House, Democrats for the Senate Democrats, they're a

719
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 1: little bit more relaxed, kind of taking a step back

720
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: and letting Biden be the main point person at this point.

721
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: But certainly as we get closer to June, I think

722
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: you will absolutely see the Senate begin to play a

723
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: bigger role, even potentially House Democrats playing a bigger role.

724
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: If it does seem like Biden is willing to do

725
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,959
Speaker 1: some negotiating with Republicans over cuts. Well, it's interesting because

726
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: even Mitch McConnell himself said, you know, that's between Kevin

727
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: and Joe Biden, but the Senate will have something to

728
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: say about a cut in defense spending or some of

729
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: the other issues that will likely offend both Democratic and

730
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: Republican members. Right Emily, Oh absolutely, I mean a defense

731
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: spending cuts are going to be one of the really

732
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: hot points here because you do see a number of

733
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: Republicans saying, hey, we're cool cutting that, and then you

734
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: see an entirely different group of Republicans going absolutely not.

735
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: And this is the question what do you cut? I

736
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: mean Republicans when you ask them, they'll be like, well,

737
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, it can't be Medicare and it can't be

738
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: social Security. But in terms of what they're actually going

739
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: to eliminate. That's very much up in the air right now.

740
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: I know that different members of House leadership they're meeting

741
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: with their members. They're trying to kind of get a

742
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: feel for where everyone is at for what may or

743
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: may not be doable right now, though it's a lot

744
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: of closed door negotiations. I mean, there are things we've

745
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: heard such as budget capped or taking the budget back

746
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: to fiscally year twenty twenty two levels. But at this point,

747
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: it's is really too soon to begin saying that that

748
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: these are the programs that are in danger of being eliminated.

749
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: Does that meaning that you ask Kevin McCarthy about actually

750
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: happen before their budget drops or at all for that matter.

751
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're talking about mid April, if that's

752
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: what you're hearing from Representative Arrington, what does that mean

753
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: for these two to get together or is that really

754
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: just show business? Emily, that is a really great question,

755
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Biden McCarthy

756
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: did not sit down again until Republicans have put out

757
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: their plan, because the drum beat from Democrats right now,

758
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: and you heard this during the Republican. A Democratic retreat

759
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: for whether in Baltimore is that Republicans need to show

760
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: their cards, they need to put out their plan, and

761
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 1: that's what needs to happen before they go any further

762
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: in these discussions over the debt limit. Emily, we've talked

763
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: about the spending side. We were just having a conversation

764
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: with Mia mc ginnis about how it really needs to

765
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: come on the revenue side as well. Is there any

766
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: world in which President Biden gets at least some of

767
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: his way and some taxes move higher or is that

768
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: just a nonstarter? It's going to be so hard, Kayley,

769
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 1: because Republicans now have control of the House, even though

770
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: there's a little more leeway in the Senate, make something

771
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: work that's more taxes is just it's not where Republicans

772
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: want to be. Right now, we're back with more and

773
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: Emily Wilkins the debate over security footage from January six.

774
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: Should that have gone to Fox? You're listening to the

775
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at

776
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: five pm Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app,

777
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can

778
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New

779
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. This

780
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio.

781
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: There is trouble in the family as Republican leaders in

782
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: the House and Senate play out in public view, a

783
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 1: growing divide here over what the heck happened on Fox

784
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: News the other night. This was what two nights ago, Tucker,

785
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: Remember we've talked about this. Tucker Carlson was given access

786
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 1: by Kevin McCarthy to dozens of hours of security tape

787
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: from various video cameras, I guess all of them from

788
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: January six, and they cranked out a version of the

789
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: story that upset a lot of people. Knowing that Tucker

790
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: Carlson has framed January six as a peaceful protest unsolicited,

791
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: the Republican Senate leader, the minority leader, Mitch McConnell yesterday

792
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: at his news conference, he's there in the corridors of

793
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 1: the Senate reporters surrounding him, felt he needed to make

794
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: a point. It was a mistake, in my view, for

795
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: Box News to depict this in a way that's completely

796
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: at variance with what our chief law enforcement official here

797
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: at the Capital holding up for reporters a memo from

798
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: the US Capitol Police chief calling Tucker Carlson's decision to

799
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 1: selectively air portions of the video offensive and miss eating.

800
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: Last evening, Kevin McCarthy, also surrounded by reporters, pushed on

801
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: this issue. Do you regret giving him the tape? No,

802
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: I said at the very beginning, transparency, and so what

803
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to produce for everybody is exactly what I said,

804
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: that people could actually look at it and see what's

805
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: got on that day. So we're going to talk to

806
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: Emily Wilkins, who was standing right there with Kevin McCarthy

807
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 1: when he said that, I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington, joined

808
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 1: by Kaylee Lyons, says he didn't watch it. By the way,

809
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: did you watch it? I've seen clips of it. It's

810
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: hard not to see it given how prevalent it is

811
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: in this news cycle. You know what was so telling

812
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 1: to me? Though Joe, as McConnell said, it was wrong

813
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: a Fox to depict it the way they did, he

814
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: did not go as far to say that McCarthy, No,

815
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: you're right, and no, he made this about Fox. It's

816
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: very careful about that, right, But of course everyone's reading

817
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: it a little bit differently here, Emily, you were there

818
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: with Kevin McCarthy. He seemed to be on his heels

819
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,959
Speaker 1: a little bit, but he's adamant that he did nothing

820
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: wrong here. Huh. Yeah. McCarthy's kind of drum beat on

821
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: this has been transparency, transparency, and he and other House

822
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: leaders have said that these tapes are going to be

823
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 1: released more widely, that you know, we will get access

824
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: to them, and they want to say that they wanted

825
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: that this is just an exclusive that they just gave

826
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: it to Tucker Carlson first. McCarthy also said last night that,

827
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: you know, he did condemn the January six rioters, but

828
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: he really kind of stayed away from commenting specifically on

829
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: anything in Tucker Carlson Show or in the segments. McCarthy

830
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: just said that his role was to trying to get

831
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: the tapes out there and get some of that information

832
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: out there. That's really the line that he's drawing in

833
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: the sand right now, and the end product beat damned.

834
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: He says, he did, by the way, consult with Capitol Police.

835
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: Despite what you heard there from Mitch McConnell. Listen, I

836
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,479
Speaker 1: worked with the Capitol Police. I asked him for any

837
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: clips on the way that they had concerned with the

838
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: security level. Only one of the clips did, and we

839
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: were able to change that. An interesting thing the Capitol

840
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: poest told us when we went through this is that

841
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: January six never asked him about the security So, Kaylee,

842
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: he's talking about the January sixth committee. That would not

843
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: be that would not jive with what we've heard from members.

844
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: So Loachgren was on this very program when this first

845
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: came to the four that he was going to make

846
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: this accessible to Tucker Carlson. She made it clear that

847
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: they worked hand in hand with Capitol Police to decide

848
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: what was appropriate to show in the hearing and what

849
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: was not for the sake of security, so they didn't

850
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: have to relocate all the cameras, which, by the way,

851
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: they may now have to do. Yeah, the conflicting narratives

852
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 1: here are definitely really interesting, especially when on one side

853
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: of the aisle there has been an attempt to cast

854
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 1: the January six Committee as a partisan effort that it's

855
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: a red blue issue, And I have to wonder as well,

856
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: And Emily, this is a great question for you, how

857
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 1: much of a headache is this for Republicans that all

858
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: of the work of the January sixth Committee, and really

859
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 1: just January sixth as a day, is continually getting relitigated

860
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: in the court of public opinion due to things like

861
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson airing clips on Fox New. I mean, I

862
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: definitely think this is not doing Republicans any favors. And

863
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: you could see how that played out in the last midterms.

864
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 1: Democrats were very successful at painting Republicans as extremists, as

865
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: going too far, and you saw a number of voters

866
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: respond to that. I mean, yes, Republicans won the House,

867
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: but it was supposed to be a red wave of

868
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: a huge victory, and instead they've got this very tiny

869
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: margin that they're now working with as a result of things.

870
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: And you talk with a lot of members about this,

871
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, and they tried to be very careful in

872
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: what they say and how they categorize things. I mean,

873
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: I spoke with Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green last night, certainly

874
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: someone who's not afraid to be controversial, and you know,

875
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: even in her criticism, she tried to be kind of

876
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: draw that distinction between those who came into the Capitol

877
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: were walking around and taking photos. Obviously they shouldn't have

878
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: been doing that, but versus those who came and vandalized

879
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: parts of the capital actually caused destruction and damage to

880
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: the building. And so it's been very interesting to see

881
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: how Republicans talk about this for the most part, though,

882
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: and I think this could even kind of see this

883
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: in some of the investigations. They're trying to really move

884
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: away from this. For all the investigations we're getting about

885
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: the border and Hunter Biden and Hunter Biden's laptop, we're

886
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: not really hearing anything from Republicans on investigating the twenty

887
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: twenty election, and I think that is a really clear

888
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: sign that they want this instant behind them, that they

889
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: don't think this is something that's good for their political future.

890
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: It's a great point, Emily. We should note that the

891
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: US Capitol Police chief, who was installed after January sixth,

892
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: said the opinion program referring to Tucker Cross in here,

893
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: never reached out to the department to provide accurate context.

894
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: You've also got Kevin McCarthy there saying the January sixth

895
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: committee never reached out to Capitol Police, which which we

896
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: know is not true. So how do these all jive

897
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: In the end. I think to a certain extent, this

898
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: is Republicans trying to switch the focus off of them

899
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: and on Democrats to try to continue to push back

900
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: against the January sixth Committee. I mean, yes, it was

901
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: by partisan, but obviously the two Republicans on it were

902
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: very much aligned with the Democrats and not their Republican colleagues,

903
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: And so I think to a certain extent that as

904
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 1: Republicans trying to kind of switch the narrative a little bit.

905
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: Although I don't think from from all the news stories

906
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: that we've gotten and from the fact that it seems

907
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: like this footage will continue to come out and continue

908
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: to be to be used, I mean, this is something

909
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: Republicans are going to have to be grappling with for

910
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: a while, it seems. Kaylee, this moment stuck out to

911
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: me in the conversation that Emily and other reporters were

912
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: having with Kevin McCarthy. It's it's pretty short, pretty sweet.

913
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: Do you have any concerns about anything that aired? Look,

914
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: I didn't see what was a didn't see what was there,

915
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: So I'm only what are we talking about? I mean,

916
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: I think this is why kind of walking that line again,

917
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: that trying just sort of you know, knocking to the

918
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 1: point where Kevin McCarthy's criticizing Tucker Carlson. I mean, McCarthy

919
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: knows he can't, but of course knows what they did

920
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: with it, right, he knows what air. Yeah, absolutely, And

921
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that Kevin McCarthy has been seeing

922
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: the same foot of coverage that you and I have

923
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: this past week. I mean, it's you know, this is

924
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: what members do. Sometimes they'll say they haven't seen some things,

925
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: they can avoid commenting on it, and you know, it's

926
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: it's again just sort of a way for McCarthy to

927
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: try and walk this fine line where he's trying to

928
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: not you know, he's trying to make sure that he's

929
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: appeasing all for all sections of House Republicans, including the

930
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: ones who are very loyal to Tucker Carlson as well

931
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: as those who just kind of wish that this whole

932
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: thing could go away. Well to that point, those loyal

933
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: to Tucker Carlson. How much of this is complicated by

934
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: the fact, from a messaging standpoint that this was maybe

935
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: shared for transparency, but it wasn't immediately shared with all

936
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: the major networks. It was went to a cable network

937
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: that is largely seen as having a partisan tilt with

938
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: certain areas of the Republican base. I don't think anyone

939
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: who heard that these tapes were going to Tucker Carlson

940
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: thought that this was going to be presented an affair

941
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: and unbiased manner, and I think that is partly what

942
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: raised so many eyebrows about McCarthy's decision to release it

943
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: there first and to do it the way that he has.

944
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: With all these questions now about the Capitol place, they're

945
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: viewing a footage exactly what is and what hasn't been

946
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: out there at this point. I think that's where a

947
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: lot of the anger and frustration have come from. I

948
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: think if had this footage been leaked to say, a

949
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: different Fox News program or a different network, I don't

950
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: think we'd be seeing some of the concerns with our

951
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,479
Speaker 1: right now. Well, it comes against the backdrop of this

952
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: amazing document dump from the dominion case against Fox. I

953
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have seen all of this,

954
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: but Tucker Carlson apparently hates Donald Trump passionately. He said so,

955
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: and I wonder what's going to come of this Emily Wilkins.

956
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Emily. Don't be a stranger. I

957
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: know you won't. Part of the family here at Bloomberg

958
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: sound on. I love it when she goes up there,

959
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: scours the halls, brings back the goods for us here.

960
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: That's directly from the source, Kayley. Most people don't hear

961
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: from Kevin McCarthy in that style. And I wonder that

962
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: the whole dominion case is a whole other factor here.

963
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: But Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy, they might need to

964
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: go on a road trip or something to yeah, have

965
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: a little sit down conversation, a little mediation perhaps, I

966
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: mean between those two and the testimony from Rupert Murdoch,

967
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: there is no shortage of Fox oriented conversations to have.

968
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: All right, leave us alone on Twitter. We're trying to

969
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: do the news here. Let's get Kayley by the way,

970
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 1: come buy more often. Maybe I'll see you here tomorrow.

971
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: Kaylee lines with us here on sound on.