WEBVTT - Remembering Stonewall 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.240 Hey, everybody, it's us Josh and Chuck, and we want 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.200 you to know we are coming somewhere near you. We're 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:10.320 sure if you live in North America this year, that's right, 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:12.800 We're going on tour, and uh, why don't we just 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:16.600 rattle through these dates? Okay? Uh? Toronto August eight at 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.919 the Day and Fourth Music Hall, Chicago August nine, the 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.599 next day at Harris Theater. Then we are taking some 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.720 time off to recover after that two day grind. We're 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:30.760 eating Vancouver the Vogue Theater September twenty six, followed by Minneapolis. 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.360 We're gonna be at the Pantageous Theater again on September 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.480 that is correct, yep. And then Austin Chuck on October 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.720 tenth of the Paramount Theater, Yes, and very special show 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:45.839 and Lawrence Kansas at Liberty Hall on October eleventh, yep. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.720 And then we're gonna do a three night stand October 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:53.840 two at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn, New York. And then Chuck, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.560 take it home. Uh, well take it home literally, because 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.560 we are finishing up November four right here in Atlanta 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.280 at the Bucket Theater and this is a very special 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.560 benefit show. Uh, and all the proceeds will be going 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.160 to Lifeline Animal Project of Atlanta in the National Down 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.120 Syndrome Society YEP and for more information into buy tickets, 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.160 just go to s y s K live dot com. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.360 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know. It's from House Stuff 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:29.160 Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:35.039 Josh Clark's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry and 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:40.720 this is Stuff you Should Know, Stuff you Should Know. Hi, Hi, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.600 I was talking to everyone else. I was looking at you, though. Sure, 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.640 it just made it weird. I know, it's a little disarming. 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:55.720 Uh So this episode on the Stonewall Riots or did 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.360 you watch that documentary stone Wall Uprising? By chance? Yes? 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.440 I did? Yeah, I think know one of the the 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.360 people interviewed and there said they preferred, or at least 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.240 he preferred to be called an uprising and not a 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:10.160 riot or something like that. Yeah. I agree, because lends 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:14.280 it definitely a much more like credible tone. Yeah, for sure. 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:16.960 A riots just like we're going crazy, we're gonna steal stuff, 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.519 we're gonna brust stuff, um and uprising is like we're 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:25.360 we've had enough and we're going to throw off this oppression. Yeah, 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.720 so the uh this this is being released, I believe 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.160 if my math is correct, uh, forty eight years and 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:34.920 a day. It depends on when you count the beginnings 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.800 of the Stone Wall uprising, because we'll get to it, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.200 but it start at one am. So technically, uh. You 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.880 know some people, you know, when you go from night 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.680 and today still count that as the previous night. You 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.079 know what I mean? Those are people who are on drugs, 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:52.639 you know what I mean. I was about to say 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:54.360 I used to do that, but then you said that, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:03:01.600 So no. But anyway, forty eight year anniversary. I thought 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:03.839 about maybe holding off till the fiftieth because I wanted 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:05.720 to do this one for a long time. But and 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.679 I thought, you know what, who knows what's going to 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.600 happen exactly. We could get hit by a bus. Yeah, 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.200 and then we never would have done this podcast. Right, 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.800 there's no time like the President Charles Yes, especially since 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:22.200 we finally got a great article from the Grabster on this. Yeah. Man, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.360 that guy is so good. I read this article that 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.760 he wrote, Um, how the Stonewall riots worked. He called 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:32.720 it the riots. Um it's I I sent him an 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.320 email just to say, like, dude, it is so nice 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.080 to have you back. I felt the same way. In fact, 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:39.720 I need to get his email so I can echo 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.520 that because, uh, you know you read it in this 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.480 just like the old days, good quality stuff. Yeah you 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.760 want to talk about Stonewall, Yeah, let's do it. Have 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.760 you ever been there? No, I haven't. I even stayed 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:55.320 at Washington Park in Washington Square in UM, which is 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.880 nice UM. And I had no idea Stonewall was right 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.040 around the corner. I didn't didn't know very much about it. 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:06.760 I mainly just um, I knew it as like I 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.520 had a rough idea. But I think I knew about 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:14.000 the same as I know about, say Attica, So I 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:19.200 know sometimes people chant Stonewall, sometimes people chanted Attica. So 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:20.960 there you go. That was about as much as I 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:22.640 knew you would. And had to drink at Attica though, 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:28.360 so right some some radiator hoot. Uh you know I 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:29.880 had time to go there and grab a drink at 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.440 the stone All and I highly recommend it. Oh yeah, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:34.839 I definitely intend to, for sure, because I love that 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.880 part of New York, to the village. So I had 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.239 to go and look this up, right, because I was like, wait, 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.080 I'm starting to see people say West Village they're also 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.159 saying Greenwich Village. It's the west part of Greenwich Village. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.880 It is okay, so um, it's both. It's Greenwich Village 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.320 and West Village, but technically it is in the West 0:04:53.400 --> 0:05:01.320 Village of Greenwich Village, which is between Houston and and Broadway. 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:06.680 Houston and I've been in New York enough times. My 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.640 friend made a mistake. Just don't ever say Avenue of 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.599 the America's I have plenty of times. Oh yeah, and 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.400 I've gotten yelled at. Yeah, and then I think the 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.279 Hudson is the other side of the village. It's just 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.440 my favorite part of town, is it. Yeah, the the 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:24.840 village in the West Village is just it's the best. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.280 You know, that's where it just feels a little bit 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.280 more like old New York. It's quaint, it's still kind 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.880 of quiet. All those tiny little tree line streets that 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.360 aren't just on a perfect grid. Uh, you can get 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.160 lost down there. You can find yourself down there. You 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.960 can you can pay a million dollars a square feet 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.039 for real estate. Yeah, it's nice, it's great. I like 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.240 the Lower East Side a lot too, though, I have 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.480 to say, yeah, and you know what, last time I 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.080 was in New York, Emily and I spent and I 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.080 used to hang out some in the East Village. In fact, 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.000 that's kind of where I used to go, mostly because 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.000 that's where my friends were back in the nineties. And um, 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.719 I went there and it is still nice and grimy. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.080 Uh what the village, the East Village. Yeah, it's uh, yeah, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.360 I mean it's not you know, it's it's been I 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.440 don't want to say modernized, but it's been what's the word, 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.560 not gentrified maybe gentrified updated. Yeah, it's been updated a 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.760 little bit. But they're still kind of a scummy, which 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.479 is great. You know, it definitely has a feel to 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.760 it still for sure, and a smell. Okay, So so Chuck, 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.440 I think we You said you've been to the stone 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.960 Wall before. Did you know much of the history? Yeah, 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.800 I mean that's why I went. Um and oddly enough 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.919 I went. I just happened to be there in the 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:48.240 days following the nightclub shooting in Florida. So there were 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.200 like armed guards at the stone Wall end and the 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.719 you know, because it's a national monument now, well, I 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.240 know a lot of people flocked to stone Wall, the 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.440 stone Wall in after the Pulse nightclub shootings just to 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.599 show solidarity and comfort one another. So the Stone Wall 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.240 has become this hub, the center of gay life in 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.280 the United States, not just in New York and then 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.960 the United States I would even say probably globally had 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.280 that much of a significance. But what's interesting about the 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.840 Stone Wall, the Stone Wall in is that it also 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.120 had that same significance just for a much much smaller 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:29.720 community of gays um prior to June nineteen sixty nine. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:34.480 But it has for decades and decades been a center 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.440 of gay life. Is just there was pre Stone Wall 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.640 and post Stone Wall, and what that club meant to 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:47.200 people really just changed by how many people um knew 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:51.120 about it but were pulled to it. Good way to 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.760 say it, thanks man, uh so um, I think we 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.840 should start as Ed suggests, as the grabs are suggested 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.280 by talking about war Stone Wall. Yeah, and a little 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:07.320 bit about the sad state of uh life as a 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.160 as a gay person, as a trans person. Uh, the 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.240 whole LGBTQ community, which of course they didn't call it 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.400 that back then, but to be in that community and 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.760 the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties was uh. I mean, 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.760 it's interesting to talk about this stuff because there's still 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.200 a long way to go. But you can't help but 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.000 look at the progress when you look at the way 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.400 things were in the fifties and sixties. Well, what's crazy 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.040 is that the fifties and sixties were a low point. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.440 Yeah for for um, I don't know if gay rights 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.600 is the right where, but gay acceptance of gay the 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.920 gay community by society at large, the fifties and sixties 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.560 were a real low in that because prior to that, um, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:54.800 it was a little it was a little people were 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.120 a little cooler with it, Like straights were a little 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.839 cooler with the idea of people being gay than they 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.439 were in like the fifties and sixties. And it's thanks 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.000 to our friend McCarthy. Yeah, Like I got the feeling 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:08.800 that there was a little bit of just a like 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.960 don't ask, don't tell philosophy going on and not like 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.480 the hammer coming down, which is what happened in the 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.160 fifties and sixties. It was a big pushback, and you're right, 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.040 McCarthy had a lot to do with it. He was like, well, 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.800 not only am I gonna tackle McCarthy, is um, but 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.320 while we're at it, let's let's castigate the gay community 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.640 as well, right it uh we I don't know if 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.559 you remember not, but we we talked about Joe McCarthy 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.000 being gay himself most likely or definitely I can't remember. Um. 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.439 But but in the midst of that, he he spent 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.080 time like persecuting gays even though he was gay himself, 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.080 which is pretty I mean, if the guy wasn't despicable before, 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.400 that really does it, you know, puts him over the fence. Yeah, 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.800 and it's you know, it's something that happens still, you know, 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.079 but he almost I don't I don't want to say 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.560 single handedly, but his his drive that whatever he embodied 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.079 in the McCarthy is m trials or hearings or whatever. Um. 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.240 He he helped take the He helped turn the tide 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.560 back against gay people. Yeah, it was going like okay 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.360 for a little while, and then this guy comes along 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.720 and just screws everything up. And then the next thing, 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.280 you know, the fifties and sixties, it's really really bad 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:24.880 to be gay. As a matter of fact, in the 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:29.600 United States outside of Illinois, every other state in the Union, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:34.280 if you were gay, you were illegal just by being you. Yeah, 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:37.400 you're basically breaking the law. Through a web of laws, 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.760 um that essentially criminalized it, whether it was anti sodomy 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:46.120 laws or saying you can't dance in public with the 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.440 same sex partner or you can't where I mean, they 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.120 actually had laws on what was called gender appropriate clothing, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.000 where you had to wear a minimum of three pieces 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:01.360 of clothing deemed appropriate for your gender. And uh, because 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.720 you know, they saw a big threat with you know, 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:05.880 they called people back then, they call it people dressing 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.240 and drag um. But we're talking about well we're talking 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:10.840 about different kinds of people, but a lot of times 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.880 they were transgender people, uh dressing like they dressed, you know, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.240 like dressing according to the gender they identified with, and 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.600 they would bring in they would find someone, they would 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.480 bring in a female officer and they would take them 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.000 into a bathroom and either uh feel for parts or 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:33.200 make them undress and check out their clothing and arrest them. Yeah. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.520 And it wasn't always it didn't always even necessarily end 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.680 and arrest. Like these laws were used as tools of 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.400 intimidation and just general oppression, and the cops were acting 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.280 in large part is as like this extension, the the 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.760 action extension of like that part of America that just 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.360 found gay people odious, just the whole the whole concept. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.000 So everybody was just totally cool with the gay community 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.920 being harassed and arrested and um brutalized. Uh. There was 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.800 a lot of um violent crime and murders against gay 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.840 people at the time. The newspapers didn't report virtually anything 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.559 that had anything to do with the gay community. Um. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:20.359 They were just complete open targets for exploitation and abuse. Um. 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.720 And it was just a terrible way to live. And 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.880 as a result, a lot of a lot of gay 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.800 people at the time just opted to act straight. They 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:34.400 got married, they had kids. Um, they just pretended in 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.080 order to survive in the society they were born into. Yeah, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.000 it was. It was classified until three and the d 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.880 s M as a mental illness aversion therapy was going on. Um. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:48.760 I had never heard of this place and saw I 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.600 saw that documentary at Tasaca Darrow State Hospital in California. Yeah, 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.880 I hadn't heard of it any oh man. They called 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.800 it the Dachau for queers, where they would engage in 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.480 shock treatment. They would show uh gay men pictures of 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.480 naked men and then shock them and uh they would 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.440 give them. There was one drug that they gave that supposedly, Yeah, 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.280 had you heard of this, No, a drug that simulated 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:17.880 the experience of drowning, they would give lobotomies. It's just 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.560 unbelievable that this was happening in our country like fifty 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.440 something years ago, right, And and and so it's bad enough 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.120 if your family is sending you off for treatment or 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:33.439 whatever to to to basically be treated for being gay, 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:38.200 because again there's like the field of psychology and psychiatry said, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.560 this is a mental illness, and we cure mental illnesses, 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.160 so you can cure gayness. Let's just figure out how 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.760 to do it, and the most brutal means possible. So 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.240 it's bad enough if your family sends you off commits 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.800 you for being gay. But I think what strikes me 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.760 is even worse for some gay people at the time, 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.320 buying into the idea that they were mentally ill, that 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:08.520 there was something profoundly wrong with them that made them 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.000 m It's just so different that they would submit to 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.360 this kind of treatment as well. You know, yeah, that 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.200 that clip in the stone wall uprising up with the 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.520 I don't know who that guy was that came to 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.760 the school to talk to the kids. Um, just man, man, 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.320 it's hard to hard to watch, to be honest, it 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.320 really is. So the lavender scare is what it was 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:36.600 kind of called under McCarthy in the nineteen fifties. And 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.080 you know, uh, this is all pre Stonewall and uh, 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.720 as Ed points out in the article, it was it 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.520 was a dark time. But um, it was also a 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:51.280 time where uh kind of underground the gay community was 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.440 was setting. And when I say gay community and we 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.440 say it, we're talking about l g B t Q 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.280 as a whole, it doesn't roll off the tongue, so 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.200 we're gonna say different things along the way. Um, But 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.400 really what they were doing kind of quietly was setting 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.040 the stage and laying a foundation for progress later on 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.360 with these kind of uh underground societies. It was called 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.160 the homophile movement, and you know, gay rights groups basically 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.240 being founded, right, And the homophile movement was basically if 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.440 Bob Newhart had been a gay activist, it was like 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.480 button down penny loafers getting along with everybody, being very 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:38.320 quiet and pleasant, um, being an upstanding neighbor, like really 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.840 really taking care of your lawn like that kind of stuff. 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.560 Like basically, the point of the homophile movement was to 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:51.000 point out to straight society that gay people were totally normal. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.600 And the approach that they took was, we're just gonna 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.200 we're gonna kill them with kindness. We're gonna win them 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:03.640 over by by being nice and by being quiet and 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:08.160 by not causing a fuss. Citizens Yeah, for sure. And 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.440 one of the things that came out of this UM, 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:15.280 the Homophile Movement UM was a society called the Madachine 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:22.440 Society UM, which is basically an an underground gay I 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:27.520 guess gay liberation movement, but like a very slow, preppy 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:33.840 gay liberation movement, you know. But I founded a network 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.960 for the first time, like gay people could communicate with 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.560 one another through like newsletters that were set up by 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.600 the Madachine Society and other UM small groups like them. 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.520 That was a big deal. Like they showed footage of 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:50.720 them in the Stone Wall Uprising documentary and they're they're 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:52.960 all wearing suits and their hair is very nice, and 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.200 it's all like very well thought out. This is an 0:16:55.200 --> 0:17:00.760 accidental UM. But they're acting not gay at all, but 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.480 they're holding signs saying that proclaimed that they're gay and 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.760 that they deserve rights. And I mean that was that 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.760 was an extraordinarily brave thing to do back then because 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.399 if you were out at as gay, and Ed I 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.560 think very wisely points out on this article, back then 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.200 you could be fired for being gay, and ED points 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.280 out today you could still be fired for being gay. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:27.560 There's no federal protection against that. It has gotten better. 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:32.640 It's horrible that that's still not protected. Right. But back 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.720 in the day, if if, if you, if you had 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.760 the wrong kind of boss and they call it win 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:39.919 that you were gay, they could not only fire, they 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.639 could make it so you would never work again, like 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.080 your life would be ruined. So to stand there in 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.359 a suit and tie in the middle of New York 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.919 where with a sign that proclaimed you were gay and 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.600 being like years old or something like that, and having 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.400 your whole life ahead of you, that was a very 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.040 brave act to do. Even though the machine society. Um 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:04.359 it's I get the impression that they're they're fairly criticized 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:09.040 in the gay community for being really slow and kind 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.080 of plotting and not doing enough and not being radical 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.920 at all. Um at the time, not really pushing gay 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.840 rights forward as as much as as what would come after. Yeah, 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.399 but like we said, what very importantly they were they 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.639 were laying a foundation, uh for what would follow the 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.520 Stonewall riots. Um, should we take a break, all right, 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.160 let's take a break, and we'll talk a little bit 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:58.760 about the refuge that was the stone wall in. All right, 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.800 so we set the stage for or what life was 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.280 like uh back then in the l g B t 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:09.040 Q community, and um, kind of more than anything, there 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:13.119 was no uh, there was no and the irony to 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.840 me is just inescapable. There there was no meeting place, 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:20.159 There was no way to normalize. Um, So what happens is, 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.320 you know, you couldn't just go be gay and have 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.879 a coffee with your gay friend out in public and 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.640 be affectionate and just be a normal human being. So 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.720 what happens is they ended up being driven underground and 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.120 meeting in public bathrooms and in porn theaters and as 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.760 uh in New York City, they were meeting in the 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:45.040 backs of meat trucks uh for hookups. And so this 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:50.040 further stigmatize them as like taking part in like perverted 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.239 quote unquote perverted behavior because they had nowhere else to go. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.720 So it was sort of like this feedback loop, you know, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.480 like had they had a place to go to begin with, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.919 they might not have been meeting in bath houses and 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.960 might not have had this stigma attached to them so well. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:08.879 I don't know if they wouldn't have still been meeting 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.400 in bath houses, but I think they would have enjoyed 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.240 having more places to to not just hook up. I 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.359 think that's all that was available to them, was just 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.760 hooking up, and that was it, well exactly. And there 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.960 was one gentleman in that documentary that was just like 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.640 we I just wanted to go place like two where 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.359 I could fall in love with somebody and talk to somebody. Yeah, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.520 that guy, I can't remember his name, but he struck 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.440 me as well. He was describing the Stone Wall. He's saying, 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.600 like that was that place. It was one of those 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:39.680 few places where you could just feel relatively safe being gay. 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.320 It was like one of the few places you could 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.000 slow dance. Um. And the way that he said it, Chuck, 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.800 was it was a place where you could find love. 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.800 It wasn't just about sex, although I'm sure there's plenty 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.760 of hookups and apparently there was prostitution ring ring running 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:57.359 out of the stone Wall, but it was a place 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.879 where you could find like was there was just a 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.320 vibe of love there supposedly is what the guy was saying, 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.520 I think, And there weren't very many places like that 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:09.840 in the world at the time. Yeah. So the Stonewall 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.160 in itself was um. It was a pair of brick 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.400 buildings originally that were horse stables way back in the day, 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.080 and then later on it was a bakery and then 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.480 eventually opened as the Stonewall In Restaurant in nineteen thirty 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.800 four and uh in the nineteen sixties. Uh. And this 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.280 was a pretty fascinating part of this whole story to 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.680 me because I had no idea, but the mafia had 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:37.719 a uh had a business idea where they would they 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:42.280 saw an opportunity for gay people to meet and by 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.439 booze and buy cigarettes and load money into the jukebox. 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:49.639 And so the mafia kind of under had these underground 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.640 uh gay bars all over New York City that they ran. Right, 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:55.760 they'd be like, hey, we just hijacked the truck that 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.440 was full of cigarettes and booze. We should just sell 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.879 it to the gay people. It goal saloons. Yeah, since 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.919 nobody else will. And the reason no one else would 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.240 was because since it was illegal to be gay if 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.400 you were a known gay person and you were at 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.680 a bar, that bar could be shut down. So bars 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.480 were like, you, you can't come in here. We're not 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.920 gay bar. There's no gays allowed, basically, and not only 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:28.000 was this, you know, legal, it was it was encouraged 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:30.720 by the law. So the mafia was like, well, there's 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.160 there's a huge market that's just needing to be satisfied 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.119 here and we'll step up, no problem. Yeah. And you know, 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.920 before you go thinking the mafia was was some benevolent 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:46.080 group getting an outlet to the LGBTQ community. They they 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:48.080 did do that, but they were a trying to make 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.760 money and be uh they were also uh, you know, 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:56.080 there were there were instances of blackmailing that would go 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.600 on that they would get like maybe a straight acting, 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.400 well yield gay man and as a target and say 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:05.400 all right, well this guy's definitely got a good job 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.480 in a family, so let's get his information and then 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.440 hit him up for money or will out him. Um. 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:17.120 So they weren't you know, they weren't just benevolent mafioso's. Uh. 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:19.480 There was some you know, untowards stuff going on on there. 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:21.840 And for sure, for sure, yeah, one of them, like 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.440 I said, was the prostitution ring at the stone Wall 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.040 and they were dealing drugs at the stone Wall in 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:31.800 um and again like the the entire bar, the stone 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:35.080 Wall in as a bar was an illegal bar. Uh yeah, 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:36.800 and they weren't doing it out of the goodness of 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.800 their hearts. They were exploiting like a a vulnerable population. 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.320