WEBVTT - Lucinda Williams 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:16.240 Pushkin. Lucinda Williams is defining convention while most of her 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.119 peers have settled into a well worn groove. The sixty 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.200 seven year old alt country icon just released an album 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:27.280 that's way more punk than country. Lucinda's early projects worth 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.640 Folkways Records, and sonically she fit right in with the 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.680 label's other releases by Wittie Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and Leadbelly, 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.760 But her first big success came in the late eighties 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.000 after she left her folky persona behind in favor of 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.000 a more modern sound, something like a Bonnie Rate meets 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.839 Bruce Springsteen, and now she's changing it up again. She 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.360 compares her latest albums Raw Grit to early Stooges Records. 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:54.400 Lucinda's snarling and growling all over the place like she 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.520 was iggy pop, and she's getting critical acclaim. Rolling Stone 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.040 says her album is electric fine and calls it her 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.120 best release in years. Lucina spoke with Bruce Headlam from 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.080 her home in Nashville about her evolving sound and how 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.240 her new album was influenced by politics and an abusive relationship. 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.560 This is broken record, Liner notes for the digital age, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:27.720 I'm justin Richmonds here's Bruce Headlam and Lucinda Williams. We 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.480 should mention we are doing this over a zoom. You 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.080 just lost part of your roof in a tornado. Youre 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.000 in a tough few months, but there's been real losses too, 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.040 and I don't to dwell on it. But two people 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:48.400 you knew, John Prime and Hold Wilner who records. Could 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:50.400 you just tell me maybe about the first time you 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:57.000 met John Prime? Yeah, well, I was. Yeah. We found 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.440 out about both of their deaths on the same day, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:09.320 by the way, which was yeah, the day from hell. Um. Well, 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.200 I was living here in the nineties in Nashville, and 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.959 in no way a minute. I met John before that, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.640 after I first moved to Los Angeles in the mid eighties, 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.400 and I want to play at the It's a famous 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.120 folk festival in Canada that's been going on for a 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.800 long time. Yeah, I think it was a Miraposa Folk 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.200 festival and John was there. He was on the bill, 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.239 and I have a photograph of us actually that somebody 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.560 took from there. And that's when I first met him, 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:49.400 And then flashed forward several years later, I'm living in 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:54.400 Nashville as he had. He was living here it's a 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.400 fairly small city, and it was even smaller then, and 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:03.240 you know, so we crossed paths again and he asked 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:07.560 me to open some shows farm and then. But the 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.160 story that I always remember that gets that I always 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:15.520 loved to tell is when John and I decided to 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.280 try to write together. And so we met for drinks 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:25.280 and dinner at this cafe and then we went over 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.079 to the Old Boys studio, his studio at Old Boy 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.680 Records on Music Row at the time. And it was 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.120 when I was working on the car songs for Car 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.720 Wheels and I had Drunken Angel I'd been working on forever, 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.360 and I was stuck with that song. I couldn't seem 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.640 to finish it. So I thought I would show it 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.120 to him it see if you had any ideas for it. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.480 And so he came up with some a couple of 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:53.880 longs that were great for John Prime song, but not 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:59.240 you know, Connie, you know that great fly, witty humor 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.360 he had right, you know, but they didn't really fit 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.840 for lis in the Williams song. And he knew that. 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.400 I knew it, He knew it, and we just you know, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.600 the rest of the night, and we just laughed and 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.240 you know, played songs and you know, talked until the 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.880 sun came up, and you know, it's one of the 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:24.200 best evenings I've ever spent, you know, with another songwriter 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:29.680 and so and of course I sang on a couple 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.039 of albums with him, a couple of songs on some 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:37.200 albums and you know, so tell me about because how 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.440 will Nor produced one of your albums and I'm how 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.280 Willer produced the West album. Yeah, and that was a shock, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.520 um because we didn't even know he got the supermar anything. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.680 You know, he wasn't in the hospital or anything. It 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.880 was just how will Nor died? You know. So with 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.479 John we knew, of course, you know, he was in 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.800 the hospital, and you know, there was always that possibility, 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.080 which shouldn't make it easier, of course, But with how 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:11.080 we had no for warning at all. Yeah, So we 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.640 should we should talk. We're gonna talk about a lot 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.039 of things, but we should talk about the new record. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:22.039 It's got a heavy, almost garage band sound. Now you've 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.320 done that a lot, like and Suffering Me and change 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.320 these I have done that and I've wanted to do 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.560 more of that, you know for this one. Did you 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.280 do you write the songs and then get in the 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.440 studio and think, I know it makes sense or do 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.240 the songs come prepackaged with like that fuzzy guitar? Oh? 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.680 I just you know, I go through a writing phase. 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.159 Well I'm always you know, coming up with lines and 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:51.040 notes and this. You know, I keep it running, uh, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.920 you know, like a briefcase full of songs that are 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.919 half finished, or titles for songs, ideas for songs and wet. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.840 That's an ongoing thing. But I'm not a little discipline 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.960 where I'll sit down every single day and say, Okay, 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.360 I'm gonna work on writing. You know, I don't do that. 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.080 I should do that, I guess, but whatever that's I've 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.159 accepted that about myself. You know, it seems to be 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.080 working for you, so don't change it now. Anyway it 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.760 comes out, I get them out, so whatever it takes. 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.400 So I get in that writing mode and then I'm 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.240 just writing, writing writing, you know, for like two weeks three. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.520 This just all came together kind of magically. I mean 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:38.680 we went in with with Ray Kennedy. Ray had invited 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.960 us just to come in and do a couple of 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.240 tracks just to see what happens kind of thing. You know, 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.880 it wasn't like this big official, Okay, we're gonna do 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.080 the whole album with that Ray and with Ray and 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.600 his studio, So even that was really was kind of spontaneous. 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.400 You know. We went in and we were in between tours, 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:58.640 so we didn't have that much time. We had a 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:03.000 couple of few days in between Rhyns, and we went 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.440 in and started putting a couple of things down, and 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.280 right off the bat we knew, you know, there's we 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.320 got something here, you know, and somehow rageous. I mean, 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.880 he just tuned right in to you know, the sound 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.800 and everything. I guess there's a combination of Ray's expertise 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:25.480 that acoustics in the studio. You never really know, you know. 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:31.280 At one point I asked Thomas, said, you know, just hypothetically, 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.800 what would happen if we took Ray and went to 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.880 a different studio, you know, would we get this same sound? 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.200 And at one point Tom said, I don't think we would. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.920 You know, it's just all those things, you know, happening 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.680 at the same time to make it work. And do 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.840 you think it's a sound that just suits these songs? Yeah, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.840 that's the thing. And we cut some other ones too, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.920 but it became evident at a certain point, there's a 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.040 certain sound here and these sort of songs are working 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.280 really well that you know, it's starting to come into 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.480 place like that. A lot of people have talked about 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.640 the sound of the record, but to me, what was 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.520 really a shift few was a lot of the language 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.720 in the record, because and I think most people when 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.560 they think of you, think of you know you very 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.720 evocative language and not just visual images. You know, you've 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.080 car wheels on a gravel road and maybe one of 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.240 my favorite lines of years, which is heavy Blankets cover 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:43.240 Lonely Girls Girls. Yeah, this album, the language is much 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:48.720 more it's it's more direct, but it's more apocalyptic. For 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.680 the lack of a better I don't know, yeah, was 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.240 it was it deliberate? Were you trying to put away 0:08:55.280 --> 0:09:00.400 some of your older ideas or not really? Because you know, 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.679 I have some of their songs that are more you know, 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.160 they're kind of like what you're talking about, but you know, 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.439 I just didn't put them on this album. It just 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:14.760 felt like the right time to do. I just right 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.520 off the bat. I loved the sound that we were 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.640 getting in the studeo and it felt very free, It 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:26.240 felt liberating, it cathartic to the band felt this way too. 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.280 Everybody's in the same you know, we're all feeling this 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.880 amst and this frustration and anger, and but it's a 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.720 healthy anger. It's you know, that kind of anger like 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.840 I want to change things and we got to do something. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:46.439 It's kind there's a sense of desperation, I think right now, 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.800 you know, I mean, it's pretty things that reached a 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:56.000 pretty uh crucial point, right you know, in this country, 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.720 and so I guess I just felt like this is 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.680 a hand to kind of, you know, take myself out 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.560 of it a little bit and just kind of but 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.480 I'm still in there though, you know. Yeah, But but 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:16.320 it's just they're more kind of universal, not necessarily political songs, 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:21.120 just more songs for humanity. I guess maybe the thing 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.520 is that all started happening at the same time that 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:27.439 Tom and I got engaged and got married and everything, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.439 and so that that was obviously a big, huge change 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.720 in my life. And as a songwriter, I was aware 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:36.440 of the fact that, you know, it was kind of 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.400 a test also to tell you the truth, you know, 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.680 to see if I could do this, because you know, 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:47.400 I couldn't keep writing unrequired love songs forever. Yeah, you know, 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.200 I had to branch out into other things, which I've 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.959 been wanting to do. Anyway, is that work? I mean 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:57.520 it's a pretty dark record, yeah, but but I feel 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.920 like it's a hopeful still. But you know, I've always 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.960 had people say my music was dark, even as far 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.160 back as Sweet Old World, you know, because I had 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.760 two songs on there about suicide. Yeah, you know, Sweet 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:15.480 Old World and Pontyola and right. You know, people would say, 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.160 oh god, you know your songs are so dark. But 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.080 I've always dug in there. You know, I've always like 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.880 gone beneeds a surface and dug out the dirt and 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.000 pulled it up for everybody to see. You know. It's like, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.800 this is come on people, you know, I wake off. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.160 I mean that's always been me, and I guess this 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.120 is it just kind of maybe pushed it a little 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.040 bit more that way, you know, and people are going, well, 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:41.920 it really couldn't have come out at a better time. 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:48.120 You know, everybody's just responding. It's like a salve that 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:52.319 that's the response I'm getting more as people are saying 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.120 thank you, I needed this, kind of saying tell me 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.000 a bit about you don't run. Sorry, you don't run me. Um, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.439 I got the name wrong. Oh you don't rule me, 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.240 you don't rule me. I'm sorry. Listen, we're all on 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:10.200 the same It's like, yeah, you find it hard to focus. Yeah, 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.600 I mean a lot of people are talking about that. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:14.920 It's hard to focus. That's why I'm glad I have 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.079 all this press and everything right now, because it gives 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.120 me something to focus on, you know, like I have 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.280 to get up by a certain time. I have to 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.160 do this, you know, because otherwise I'm just I'm like 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:31.120 sitting on the caps and crosser puss right, you know too. Actually, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.000 I was getting a big step in my mind with 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.920 U you Don't Own Me that Leslie Gore song, and 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.640 I was like, oh, I love that song song, you 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:44.720 know what? And they're similar actually, um, but anyway, yeah, 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.760 I got that from there's a Memphis Minting song by 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.920 the same title. And yeah, I discovered her music a 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.520 long time ago, back in the seventies. Yeah you did. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.839 You did Me and my Chauffeur on your record, that 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.840 Me and My Chauffeur blues on the first Folkways album. 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.920 So you know, she was a real important um musical 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.640 figure for me because you know, to my knowledge, she 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.160 was at least not the only one, but one of 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.480 a handful. You could probably count them on one hand 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:25.600 of women who played guitar and wrote their own songs. 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:31.520 You know. Um, so this is one that she recorded 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.320 that her version is more the personal thing, you know, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.120 to the to her man saying you can't rule me, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.400 you can't take my money to you know, she always wrote, 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.800 all of her songs are about all these bad moons, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.440 you know, you did her wrong and everything. So you know, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.760 I kind of made it more topical, I guess, or 0:13:53.040 --> 0:14:00.160 you know, this is you can't rule me beautiful love 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:06.000 that dotted line, uh line, Yeah, the the dotted line 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.880 Aben song. I love that. I admit a little bit 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:11.959 of me I want I went back a little bit 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.760 of me wanted that to be in the Memphis Mini version. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:21.040 I went back and looked it wasn't. Yeah, it's real similar. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.800 It's it's funny how that song and the Leslie Gore 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.840 song they're they're personal songs that sort of become political 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:33.000 songs in a way. Or yeah, what Aretha Franklin did 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.440 with respect. Yes that's a I love that. Yeah, I 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:42.200 love that analogy that comparison. That's great. When you write 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.640 a political song like that or a song that's politically changed, 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.280 how's that different than when you're writing a personal song. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.760 Are they come easier? Are they harder? I still approach 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.080 it a lot in the same way. I mean, um, 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.480 because I still have to feel like I'm in it 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.400 and it's coming from me. You know. It's something that 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.920 I'm frustrated about too, So it's not like I'm separating 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:10.480 myself from the song, but um, I think it is. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.800 To me, it's been harder in the past to write 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.800 political songs or topical songs in the way that because 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.760 I always wanted to be able to write one like 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.880 Masters of War, you know, the Bob Dylan protest songs 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:29.160 that I grew up listening to. Hard Rain's Going to Fall, 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:34.200 you know, times they are changing, and you know those 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.080 kinds of songs. Those are you know, taking a stab 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.360 at it over the years. But to me, like, I 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:43.800 don't really call them protest songs. That's why don't we 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:48.280 call them that, because it's more about the suffering of 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:54.400 people and humanity and and the rights of people, and 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.200 like I have five the same feelings or that song, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.280 you know, more and to be loved. You weren't born 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.320 to suffer. You weren't born When I sing, when I 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.480 wrote that song, when I see it, I think about 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.240 child abuse, you know, I think about the rights of 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.200 that children don't have and these little kids that are 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.680 you know, abused and beaten up and thrown into a closet, 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.280 and you know a lot of dark stuff that's that's 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.840 in that song. But it might not just be writing 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.680 your face, right, you know, you do have a very 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:36.760 harrowing song on this album about an abusive relationship. Yeah, 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.880 that was me. Yeah, I used to judge and say, oh, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.280 you know, um, that's never gonna be you know, I 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:49.280 wouldn't let that happen, you know, And there I was. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.960 You know, I met this guy. He was sober. When 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.280 I met him. He was living in a The most 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.520 stupid thing I've ever done. He was living in a 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.840 sober living house. Right, that's the aubrety of it. And 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.560 I'm thinking, why could possibly go wrong? The guy's sober. 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.920 Isn't a siber living house, you know, I didn't know, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.639 you know, stupid me. Hello, is somebody's in a sober 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.360 living house. They're there for a reason, They're not supposed 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.040 to leave, you know, and move in with you. You know, 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.800 so he moves out of the sober living house in 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.960 with me, and surprise, surprise, you know, starts first. It 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.000 just starts off with a little drinking X thing. You know, 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.439 he's you know, down in the basement of the house 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:42.680 shooting speedballs, you know. So, um, you know, it just escalated. 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:44.919 The only one I could look at it now, it 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.679 was a it was a you know, it was a lesson. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.840 It was just a proofing point that it doesn't matter 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.960 you know what race you are, you know, what class 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.720 you're from, or what you know, any of that. You know, 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:05.080 you can find yourself in those situations. You know. Do 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.920 you ever think sort of bay analogy because you're talking 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.680 about the political situation? Um, you said, like, how did 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.520 you let yourself get into a bad personal situation? Do 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.920 you ever wonder how you see the country getting in 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:24.920 a bad political situation? Yeah, I guess it's a it's 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:29.280 interesting when you said that, I started suddenly seeing this 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:36.760 kind of metaphor something running between the domestic abuse you 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:41.440 know situation, and then the situation with you know, Trump 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.960 and his cronies and everything, you know, because I mean 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:50.480 it does feel like abuse. It feels like a national abuse, right, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.359 you know, we're all being abused. Actually, you know, we 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.760 don't feel we don't feel cared for, we don't feel comforted. 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.679 We'll be right back with Lucinda Williams. After a quick break, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.240 we're back with more of Bruce's conversation with Lucinda Williams. 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:15.360 Do you worry that because your stuff hasn't been explicitly 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.159 political before, that it's going to turn off some of 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.320 your audience. I'm probably gonna lose some fans, you know, 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:26.320 But so be it. I mean I thought about it, honestly. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.840 I thought the song that was going to desturb people 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.880 that most would be waking up, you know, because it's 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.000 so just right in her face. But the song that's 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.960 been the one but that's not really a political song, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:44.320 but the song that's probably obviously most people you would 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.960 probably think would be the one that it is happening with. So, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:52.440 which is man without a soul? And you did you? 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.879 I read a story that you posted that that's it. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.960 There was an article it came out in New Yor 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.679 Times that ironically and I said something like, um, where 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.679 is the where is the soul of Donald Trump or 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.600 something like that, and we were all welling, Wow, this 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.240 is really interesting. I wonder if he ever wrote the 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.280 article had heard the song, or is it just a coincidence. 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.879 So anyway, we posted a link to the article with 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.359 a link to the song. Man, I thought a soul 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.040 on my Facebook page and I started looking at it 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.640 one night and started seeing all the comments that were 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.440 coming in, and I was shocked to see some of them. 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.560 One of them said, well, I thought Lucinda was a 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:45.240 compassionate person. You know, she wrote that song compassion. This 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:49.119 isn't compassionate. She has no right to write a song 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.919 like this. This isn't right. That really bothered me, Like 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:58.720 I am a compassionate person. Well, wasn't that one of 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.480 the songs that was taken from one of the poems 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.159 of your father Noah. That's what they were talking about, 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.719 you know, they said, He's he were here ever once, 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.920 and she wrote this song compassion. He says, I don't 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.560 see anything compassionate at all about this, Like I was 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:21.480 just I had gone over the line, right. See. Now 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.840 I'm worried about this song. Man. It's out a soul. 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.680 There's an enough compassion, and I'm gonna be worried. Now 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.720 you should stop worrying. That songs completely transformed when you 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:39.440 do it that way. Yeah, it's it's it doesn't it's 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.560 like it just tightens around your heart that time. I know. 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:46.840 I want to let's see. I like the acoustic version 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.920 I did on this, the demo version I like better 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:53.439 than I like my vocal better on I don't know, 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:58.000 maybe I'll put out a put out an acoustic version. 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.960 Yeah version, you know, it is a different thing, it's 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:06.840 a different feel. Yeah, this song was. Tom brought this 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.760 song to me, He brought the idea to me, and 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:14.359 I actually resisted it first, you know, because I started 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.080 felt that way like you know, remember that song that 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.040 Neil Young, that line in a Neil Young song where 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.040 he says, even Richard Nixon has got sould. And we 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.720 talked about you know, I said, well, you know, everybody's 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.520 got a soul. Even Donald Trump has a soul, I mean, 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.080 you know. And then Tom said, well, just look at 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.359 it as an expression, don't. It's not meant to be 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:44.560 taken literally. And and also Tom said when he was 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:49.119 first writing the song, when he was looking at it, 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.879 he was imagining the guy in my abusive relationship, he 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:57.639 said he was to him, it's as much about something 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:01.000 like that as it is the present United States. It's 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.439 not necessarily you know, he keeps He was telling he 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:07.280 would tell me, don't tell people it's about Trump. It 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:10.280 doesn't have to be, you know. And I said, well, 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:12.920 I'm not telling people it's about Trump. They're telling me, 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.880 you know, people here and they go that song about Trump. 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.560 You know. Yeah, So now I'm kind of stuck with that. 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.520 And you know, will let me ask you, do you 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.920 have the guy in the abusive relationship? Do you feel 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:31.159 compassion for him in some way or not? Yes, I 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:36.639 feel compassionate for you know, that's just how I am. 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:40.560 I mean, I feel sorry for Donald Trump, you know 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:44.480 I do. He said, he's mentally ill. He needs help, 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.760 he needs, but he doesn't need to be trying to 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.880 run the country. If you just you just hurry out 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:53.000 an album called I Feel Sorry for Donald Trump. I 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.560 think all your fans will come. We'll just come back. 0:23:57.400 --> 0:23:59.879 You can walk the streets of Tennessee and you'll be safe. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:04.560 People are losing friends over this, I mean, never mind fans. 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:08.080 You know, people are unfriending people right and left on Facebook. 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.159 You know. I mean, I have a cousin. I have 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:16.160 a first cousin who I've adore, I love and simply adore, 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.800 who became a Trump person, Trump supporter. And I was 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:26.840 shocked because our grandfather was a socialist, Democrat, methodist minister, 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:32.679 civil rights supporter and equal rights and all of that. 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:36.320 That's the family I come from my dad's side, and 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.840 here is my cousin. What happens to people? I do 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:43.080 want to talk a bit more about your family. Not 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.960 everybody grows up in the in a household with a 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:52.000 famous poet. Did he influence your early writing directly? I'm sure. 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:55.480 I'm sure he did. I'm sure as work did. I mean, 0:24:56.160 --> 0:24:58.639 when I started writing songs, I would show him, you know, 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:01.280 I was. My father and I were real close. We 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:05.920 bonded for when I was very young, you know, because 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:09.760 if my mother was suffering from pretty severe mental illness, 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:13.600 and so my dad would kind of take the you know, 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:18.800 sort of take up the slack, so to speak. You know. 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:23.720 So he and I were really close. And so as 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:25.480 soon as I learned to read and write, I was 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:29.600 writing little points and stories and things, you know. You know, 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:33.080 then that turned into I started taking guitar lescens when 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:37.400 I was twelve years old, the nineteen sixty five, and 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.240 then I started, you know, writing songs and all. And 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.320 you know, the more I got into that I started, 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:46.119 I would show in some things and he would he 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:49.960 would critique it really like a real you know, professor. 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.040