1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Lucinda Williams is defining convention while most of her 2 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: peers have settled into a well worn groove. The sixty 3 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: seven year old alt country icon just released an album 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: that's way more punk than country. Lucinda's early projects worth 5 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: Folkways Records, and sonically she fit right in with the 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: label's other releases by Wittie Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and Leadbelly, 7 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: But her first big success came in the late eighties 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: after she left her folky persona behind in favor of 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: a more modern sound, something like a Bonnie Rate meets 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, and now she's changing it up again. She 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: compares her latest albums Raw Grit to early Stooges Records. 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Lucinda's snarling and growling all over the place like she 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: was iggy pop, and she's getting critical acclaim. Rolling Stone 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: says her album is electric fine and calls it her 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: best release in years. Lucina spoke with Bruce Headlam from 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: her home in Nashville about her evolving sound and how 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: her new album was influenced by politics and an abusive relationship. 18 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: This is broken record, Liner notes for the digital age, 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmonds here's Bruce Headlam and Lucinda Williams. We 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: should mention we are doing this over a zoom. You 21 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: just lost part of your roof in a tornado. Youre 22 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: in a tough few months, but there's been real losses too, 23 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: and I don't to dwell on it. But two people 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: you knew, John Prime and Hold Wilner who records. Could 25 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: you just tell me maybe about the first time you 26 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: met John Prime? Yeah, well, I was. Yeah. We found 27 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: out about both of their deaths on the same day, 28 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: by the way, which was yeah, the day from hell. Um. Well, 29 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: I was living here in the nineties in Nashville, and 30 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: in no way a minute. I met John before that, 31 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: after I first moved to Los Angeles in the mid eighties, 32 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: and I want to play at the It's a famous 33 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: folk festival in Canada that's been going on for a 34 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, I think it was a Miraposa Folk 35 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: festival and John was there. He was on the bill, 36 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: and I have a photograph of us actually that somebody 37 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: took from there. And that's when I first met him, 38 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: And then flashed forward several years later, I'm living in 39 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: Nashville as he had. He was living here it's a 40 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: fairly small city, and it was even smaller then, and 41 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, so we crossed paths again and he asked 42 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: me to open some shows farm and then. But the 43 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: story that I always remember that gets that I always 44 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: loved to tell is when John and I decided to 45 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: try to write together. And so we met for drinks 46 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: and dinner at this cafe and then we went over 47 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: to the Old Boys studio, his studio at Old Boy 48 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: Records on Music Row at the time. And it was 49 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: when I was working on the car songs for Car 50 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: Wheels and I had Drunken Angel I'd been working on forever, 51 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: and I was stuck with that song. I couldn't seem 52 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: to finish it. So I thought I would show it 53 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: to him it see if you had any ideas for it. 54 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: And so he came up with some a couple of 55 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: longs that were great for John Prime song, but not 56 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, Connie, you know that great fly, witty humor 57 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: he had right, you know, but they didn't really fit 58 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: for lis in the Williams song. And he knew that. 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: I knew it, He knew it, and we just you know, 60 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: the rest of the night, and we just laughed and 61 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, played songs and you know, talked until the 62 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: sun came up, and you know, it's one of the 63 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: best evenings I've ever spent, you know, with another songwriter 64 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: and so and of course I sang on a couple 65 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: of albums with him, a couple of songs on some 66 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: albums and you know, so tell me about because how 67 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: will Nor produced one of your albums and I'm how 68 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: Willer produced the West album. Yeah, and that was a shock, 69 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: um because we didn't even know he got the supermar anything. 70 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: You know, he wasn't in the hospital or anything. It 71 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: was just how will Nor died? You know. So with 72 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: John we knew, of course, you know, he was in 73 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: the hospital, and you know, there was always that possibility, 74 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: which shouldn't make it easier, of course, But with how 75 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: we had no for warning at all. Yeah, So we 76 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: should we should talk. We're gonna talk about a lot 77 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: of things, but we should talk about the new record. 78 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: It's got a heavy, almost garage band sound. Now you've 79 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: done that a lot, like and Suffering Me and change 80 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: these I have done that and I've wanted to do 81 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: more of that, you know for this one. Did you 82 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: do you write the songs and then get in the 83 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: studio and think, I know it makes sense or do 84 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: the songs come prepackaged with like that fuzzy guitar? Oh? 85 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: I just you know, I go through a writing phase. 86 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: Well I'm always you know, coming up with lines and 87 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: notes and this. You know, I keep it running, uh, 88 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, like a briefcase full of songs that are 89 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: half finished, or titles for songs, ideas for songs and wet. 90 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: That's an ongoing thing. But I'm not a little discipline 91 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: where I'll sit down every single day and say, Okay, 92 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna work on writing. You know, I don't do that. 93 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: I should do that, I guess, but whatever that's I've 94 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: accepted that about myself. You know, it seems to be 95 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: working for you, so don't change it now. Anyway it 96 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: comes out, I get them out, so whatever it takes. 97 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: So I get in that writing mode and then I'm 98 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: just writing, writing writing, you know, for like two weeks three. 99 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: This just all came together kind of magically. I mean 100 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: we went in with with Ray Kennedy. Ray had invited 101 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: us just to come in and do a couple of 102 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: tracks just to see what happens kind of thing. You know, 103 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't like this big official, Okay, we're gonna do 104 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: the whole album with that Ray and with Ray and 105 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: his studio, So even that was really was kind of spontaneous. 106 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: You know. We went in and we were in between tours, 107 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: so we didn't have that much time. We had a 108 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: couple of few days in between Rhyns, and we went 109 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: in and started putting a couple of things down, and 110 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: right off the bat we knew, you know, there's we 111 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: got something here, you know, and somehow rageous. I mean, 112 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: he just tuned right in to you know, the sound 113 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: and everything. I guess there's a combination of Ray's expertise 114 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: that acoustics in the studio. You never really know, you know. 115 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: At one point I asked Thomas, said, you know, just hypothetically, 116 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: what would happen if we took Ray and went to 117 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: a different studio, you know, would we get this same sound? 118 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: And at one point Tom said, I don't think we would. 119 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's just all those things, you know, happening 120 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: at the same time to make it work. And do 121 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: you think it's a sound that just suits these songs? Yeah, 122 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: that's the thing. And we cut some other ones too, 123 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: but it became evident at a certain point, there's a 124 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: certain sound here and these sort of songs are working 125 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: really well that you know, it's starting to come into 126 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: place like that. A lot of people have talked about 127 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: the sound of the record, but to me, what was 128 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: really a shift few was a lot of the language 129 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: in the record, because and I think most people when 130 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: they think of you, think of you know you very 131 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: evocative language and not just visual images. You know, you've 132 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: car wheels on a gravel road and maybe one of 133 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: my favorite lines of years, which is heavy Blankets cover 134 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: Lonely Girls Girls. Yeah, this album, the language is much 135 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: more it's it's more direct, but it's more apocalyptic. For 136 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: the lack of a better I don't know, yeah, was 137 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: it was it deliberate? Were you trying to put away 138 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: some of your older ideas or not really? Because you know, 139 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: I have some of their songs that are more you know, 140 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: they're kind of like what you're talking about, but you know, 141 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: I just didn't put them on this album. It just 142 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: felt like the right time to do. I just right 143 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: off the bat. I loved the sound that we were 144 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: getting in the studeo and it felt very free, It 145 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: felt liberating, it cathartic to the band felt this way too. 146 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: Everybody's in the same you know, we're all feeling this 147 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: amst and this frustration and anger, and but it's a 148 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: healthy anger. It's you know, that kind of anger like 149 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: I want to change things and we got to do something. 150 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: It's kind there's a sense of desperation, I think right now, 151 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's pretty things that reached a 152 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: pretty uh crucial point, right you know, in this country, 153 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: and so I guess I just felt like this is 154 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: a hand to kind of, you know, take myself out 155 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: of it a little bit and just kind of but 156 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm still in there though, you know. Yeah, But but 157 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: it's just they're more kind of universal, not necessarily political songs, 158 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: just more songs for humanity. I guess maybe the thing 159 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: is that all started happening at the same time that 160 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: Tom and I got engaged and got married and everything, 161 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: and so that that was obviously a big, huge change 162 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: in my life. And as a songwriter, I was aware 163 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: of the fact that, you know, it was kind of 164 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: a test also to tell you the truth, you know, 165 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: to see if I could do this, because you know, 166 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't keep writing unrequired love songs forever. Yeah, you know, 167 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: I had to branch out into other things, which I've 168 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: been wanting to do. Anyway, is that work? I mean 169 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: it's a pretty dark record, yeah, but but I feel 170 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: like it's a hopeful still. But you know, I've always 171 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: had people say my music was dark, even as far 172 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: back as Sweet Old World, you know, because I had 173 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: two songs on there about suicide. Yeah, you know, Sweet 174 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: Old World and Pontyola and right. You know, people would say, 175 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: oh god, you know your songs are so dark. But 176 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: I've always dug in there. You know, I've always like 177 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: gone beneeds a surface and dug out the dirt and 178 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: pulled it up for everybody to see. You know. It's like, 179 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: this is come on people, you know, I wake off. 180 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean that's always been me, and I guess this 181 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: is it just kind of maybe pushed it a little 182 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: bit more that way, you know, and people are going, well, 183 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: it really couldn't have come out at a better time. 184 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: You know, everybody's just responding. It's like a salve that 185 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: that's the response I'm getting more as people are saying 186 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: thank you, I needed this, kind of saying tell me 187 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: a bit about you don't run. Sorry, you don't run me. Um, 188 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: I got the name wrong. Oh you don't rule me, 189 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: you don't rule me. I'm sorry. Listen, we're all on 190 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: the same It's like, yeah, you find it hard to focus. Yeah, 191 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people are talking about that. 192 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: It's hard to focus. That's why I'm glad I have 193 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: all this press and everything right now, because it gives 194 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: me something to focus on, you know, like I have 195 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: to get up by a certain time. I have to 196 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: do this, you know, because otherwise I'm just I'm like 197 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: sitting on the caps and crosser puss right, you know too. Actually, 198 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: I was getting a big step in my mind with 199 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: U you Don't Own Me that Leslie Gore song, and 200 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I love that song song, you 201 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: know what? And they're similar actually, um, but anyway, yeah, 202 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: I got that from there's a Memphis Minting song by 203 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: the same title. And yeah, I discovered her music a 204 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: long time ago, back in the seventies. Yeah you did. 205 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 1: You did Me and my Chauffeur on your record, that 206 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: Me and My Chauffeur blues on the first Folkways album. 207 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: So you know, she was a real important um musical 208 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: figure for me because you know, to my knowledge, she 209 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: was at least not the only one, but one of 210 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: a handful. You could probably count them on one hand 211 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: of women who played guitar and wrote their own songs. 212 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: You know. Um, so this is one that she recorded 213 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: that her version is more the personal thing, you know, 214 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: to the to her man saying you can't rule me, 215 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: you can't take my money to you know, she always wrote, 216 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: all of her songs are about all these bad moons, 217 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, you did her wrong and everything. So you know, 218 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: I kind of made it more topical, I guess, or 219 00:13:53,040 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, this is you can't rule me beautiful love 220 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: that dotted line, uh line, Yeah, the the dotted line 221 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: Aben song. I love that. I admit a little bit 222 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: of me I want I went back a little bit 223 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: of me wanted that to be in the Memphis Mini version. 224 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: I went back and looked it wasn't. Yeah, it's real similar. 225 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: It's it's funny how that song and the Leslie Gore 226 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: song they're they're personal songs that sort of become political 227 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: songs in a way. Or yeah, what Aretha Franklin did 228 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: with respect. Yes that's a I love that. Yeah, I 229 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: love that analogy that comparison. That's great. When you write 230 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: a political song like that or a song that's politically changed, 231 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: how's that different than when you're writing a personal song. 232 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: Are they come easier? Are they harder? I still approach 233 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: it a lot in the same way. I mean, um, 234 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: because I still have to feel like I'm in it 235 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: and it's coming from me. You know. It's something that 236 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: I'm frustrated about too, So it's not like I'm separating 237 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: myself from the song, but um, I think it is. 238 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: To me, it's been harder in the past to write 239 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: political songs or topical songs in the way that because 240 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: I always wanted to be able to write one like 241 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: Masters of War, you know, the Bob Dylan protest songs 242 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: that I grew up listening to. Hard Rain's Going to Fall, 243 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, times they are changing, and you know those 244 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: kinds of songs. Those are you know, taking a stab 245 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: at it over the years. But to me, like, I 246 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: don't really call them protest songs. That's why don't we 247 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: call them that, because it's more about the suffering of 248 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: people and humanity and and the rights of people, and 249 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: like I have five the same feelings or that song, 250 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: you know, more and to be loved. You weren't born 251 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: to suffer. You weren't born When I sing, when I 252 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: wrote that song, when I see it, I think about 253 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: child abuse, you know, I think about the rights of 254 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: that children don't have and these little kids that are 255 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, abused and beaten up and thrown into a closet, 256 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: and you know a lot of dark stuff that's that's 257 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: in that song. But it might not just be writing 258 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: your face, right, you know, you do have a very 259 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: harrowing song on this album about an abusive relationship. Yeah, 260 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: that was me. Yeah, I used to judge and say, oh, 261 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: you know, um, that's never gonna be you know, I 262 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't let that happen, you know, And there I was. 263 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: You know, I met this guy. He was sober. When 264 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: I met him. He was living in a The most 265 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: stupid thing I've ever done. He was living in a 266 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: sober living house. Right, that's the aubrety of it. And 267 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, why could possibly go wrong? The guy's sober. 268 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: Isn't a siber living house, you know, I didn't know, 269 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: you know, stupid me. Hello, is somebody's in a sober 270 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: living house. They're there for a reason, They're not supposed 271 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: to leave, you know, and move in with you. You know, 272 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: so he moves out of the sober living house in 273 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: with me, and surprise, surprise, you know, starts first. It 274 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: just starts off with a little drinking X thing. You know, 275 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: he's you know, down in the basement of the house 276 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: shooting speedballs, you know. So, um, you know, it just escalated. 277 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: The only one I could look at it now, it 278 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: was a it was a you know, it was a lesson. 279 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: It was just a proofing point that it doesn't matter 280 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: you know what race you are, you know, what class 281 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: you're from, or what you know, any of that. You know, 282 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: you can find yourself in those situations. You know. Do 283 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: you ever think sort of bay analogy because you're talking 284 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: about the political situation? Um, you said, like, how did 285 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: you let yourself get into a bad personal situation? Do 286 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: you ever wonder how you see the country getting in 287 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: a bad political situation? Yeah, I guess it's a it's 288 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: interesting when you said that, I started suddenly seeing this 289 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: kind of metaphor something running between the domestic abuse you 290 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: know situation, and then the situation with you know, Trump 291 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: and his cronies and everything, you know, because I mean 292 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: it does feel like abuse. It feels like a national abuse, right, 293 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: you know, we're all being abused. Actually, you know, we 294 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: don't feel we don't feel cared for, we don't feel comforted. 295 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Lucinda Williams. After a quick break, 296 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: we're back with more of Bruce's conversation with Lucinda Williams. 297 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: Do you worry that because your stuff hasn't been explicitly 298 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: political before, that it's going to turn off some of 299 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: your audience. I'm probably gonna lose some fans, you know, 300 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: But so be it. I mean I thought about it, honestly. 301 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: I thought the song that was going to desturb people 302 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: that most would be waking up, you know, because it's 303 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: so just right in her face. But the song that's 304 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: been the one but that's not really a political song, 305 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: but the song that's probably obviously most people you would 306 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: probably think would be the one that it is happening with. So, 307 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: which is man without a soul? And you did you? 308 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: I read a story that you posted that that's it. 309 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: There was an article it came out in New Yor 310 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: Times that ironically and I said something like, um, where 311 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: is the where is the soul of Donald Trump or 312 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: something like that, and we were all welling, Wow, this 313 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: is really interesting. I wonder if he ever wrote the 314 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: article had heard the song, or is it just a coincidence. 315 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: So anyway, we posted a link to the article with 316 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: a link to the song. Man, I thought a soul 317 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: on my Facebook page and I started looking at it 318 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: one night and started seeing all the comments that were 319 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: coming in, and I was shocked to see some of them. 320 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: One of them said, well, I thought Lucinda was a 321 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: compassionate person. You know, she wrote that song compassion. This 322 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: isn't compassionate. She has no right to write a song 323 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: like this. This isn't right. That really bothered me, Like 324 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: I am a compassionate person. Well, wasn't that one of 325 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: the songs that was taken from one of the poems 326 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: of your father Noah. That's what they were talking about, 327 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, they said, He's he were here ever once, 328 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: and she wrote this song compassion. He says, I don't 329 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: see anything compassionate at all about this, Like I was 330 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: just I had gone over the line, right. See. Now 331 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm worried about this song. Man. It's out a soul. 332 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: There's an enough compassion, and I'm gonna be worried. Now 333 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: you should stop worrying. That songs completely transformed when you 334 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: do it that way. Yeah, it's it's it doesn't it's 335 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: like it just tightens around your heart that time. I know. 336 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: I want to let's see. I like the acoustic version 337 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: I did on this, the demo version I like better 338 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: than I like my vocal better on I don't know, 339 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: maybe I'll put out a put out an acoustic version. 340 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: Yeah version, you know, it is a different thing, it's 341 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: a different feel. Yeah, this song was. Tom brought this 342 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: song to me, He brought the idea to me, and 343 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: I actually resisted it first, you know, because I started 344 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: felt that way like you know, remember that song that 345 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: Neil Young, that line in a Neil Young song where 346 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: he says, even Richard Nixon has got sould. And we 347 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: talked about you know, I said, well, you know, everybody's 348 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: got a soul. Even Donald Trump has a soul, I mean, 349 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: you know. And then Tom said, well, just look at 350 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: it as an expression, don't. It's not meant to be 351 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: taken literally. And and also Tom said when he was 352 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: first writing the song, when he was looking at it, 353 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: he was imagining the guy in my abusive relationship, he 354 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: said he was to him, it's as much about something 355 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: like that as it is the present United States. It's 356 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: not necessarily you know, he keeps He was telling he 357 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: would tell me, don't tell people it's about Trump. It 358 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be, you know. And I said, well, 359 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: I'm not telling people it's about Trump. They're telling me, 360 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, people here and they go that song about Trump. 361 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, So now I'm kind of stuck with that. 362 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: And you know, will let me ask you, do you 363 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: have the guy in the abusive relationship? Do you feel 364 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: compassion for him in some way or not? Yes, I 365 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: feel compassionate for you know, that's just how I am. 366 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel sorry for Donald Trump, you know 367 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: I do. He said, he's mentally ill. He needs help, 368 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: he needs, but he doesn't need to be trying to 369 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: run the country. If you just you just hurry out 370 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: an album called I Feel Sorry for Donald Trump. I 371 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: think all your fans will come. We'll just come back. 372 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: You can walk the streets of Tennessee and you'll be safe. 373 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: People are losing friends over this, I mean, never mind fans. 374 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: You know, people are unfriending people right and left on Facebook. 375 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: You know. I mean, I have a cousin. I have 376 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: a first cousin who I've adore, I love and simply adore, 377 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: who became a Trump person, Trump supporter. And I was 378 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: shocked because our grandfather was a socialist, Democrat, methodist minister, 379 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: civil rights supporter and equal rights and all of that. 380 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: That's the family I come from my dad's side, and 381 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: here is my cousin. What happens to people? I do 382 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: want to talk a bit more about your family. Not 383 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: everybody grows up in the in a household with a 384 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: famous poet. Did he influence your early writing directly? I'm sure. 385 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. I'm sure as work did. I mean, 386 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: when I started writing songs, I would show him, you know, 387 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: I was. My father and I were real close. We 388 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: bonded for when I was very young, you know, because 389 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: if my mother was suffering from pretty severe mental illness, 390 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: and so my dad would kind of take the you know, 391 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: sort of take up the slack, so to speak. You know. 392 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: So he and I were really close. And so as 393 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: soon as I learned to read and write, I was 394 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: writing little points and stories and things, you know. You know, 395 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: then that turned into I started taking guitar lescens when 396 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: I was twelve years old, the nineteen sixty five, and 397 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: then I started, you know, writing songs and all. And 398 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: you know, the more I got into that I started, 399 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: I would show in some things and he would he 400 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: would critique it really like a real you know, professor. 401 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: You know, he would be real honest with me and 402 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: but gentle, but honest, you know, and give me constructive 403 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: criticism and suggestions. And so I certainly learned definitely from it. 404 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: Was almost like an apprenticeship in a way, you know, 405 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: um or built in creative writing course at home, you know, 406 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: because I never studied it in school. So that was 407 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: kind of that was that was where I learned probably 408 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: the craft of it of it. I did hear a 409 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: story that your father once took you to meet Flannery O'Connor. Yeah, 410 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: we were living in Macon, Georgia, and that's where I 411 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: went to. UM first, I started school there, So I 412 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: was I was pretty young. I was about six years old, 413 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: I guess maybe. And um she lived in Miligile, Georgia 414 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: in her old family farm farmhouse. And um so my 415 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: dad and she he considered her his his teacher, you know, 416 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: she was his mentor. They had been communicating and talking 417 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: on the phone and writing letters mostly, and so now 418 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: that we were in Mapon, she invited my dad to 419 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: go to drive over to Millageville and visit it one afternoon. 420 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: So he took me with him Flan where he had 421 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: a very regimented writing schedule, you know. And so when 422 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: we got there, she wasn't quite done with her writing period, 423 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: you know. We got there about half an hour before 424 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: she was finished. So my dad said he remembers seeing 425 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: her the Venetian blinds to close, you know, and she 426 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: was working in the room and she pulled the blinds down, 427 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: and her housekeeper came out. We were on the front porch, 428 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: and her housekeeper came out and said, mister Williams, but 429 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: missus flan where he's not quite done yet. You'll have 430 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: to wait out here on the porch. Very southern, very 431 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: old South, you know. And um, so we waited on 432 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: the porch, and then after a little bit the housekeeper 433 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: came opened the front screen door and said, okay, mister Williams, 434 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: you can come in, and and I stayed outside and 435 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: played with her chase or peacocks apparently. So that's my 436 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: memory of it. But and then I when I became 437 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: a teenager, I read everything of herst I just devoured it. Yeah, 438 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: she had a great line. Um, uh, you know, somebody 439 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: asked her Southern Gothic, you know why, why is the South? 440 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: I have so many freaks, and she said, we don't 441 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: have more freaks than anybody else, We're just better at 442 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: recognizing them. Yes, that was such a great line. Why 443 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: can't I think it's something I'd like that to say? Oh, 444 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: you thought of plenty things, plenty of I mean when 445 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: I when I read her stuff though, it all just 446 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: made so much sense to me. I mean, I just 447 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: so God, I know what that person. I've seen that 448 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: person obviously now you know, my mother's son of the family. 449 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: For God's sake, you know. We'll be back with more 450 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: from Lucinda Williams. After a quick break, we're back with 451 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: Lucinda Williams performing Shadows and Doubts from her new album 452 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: Good Souls, Better Angels. Wow. That was fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, 453 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 1: I'm real proud of that one. Where did that come from? Well, um, 454 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: you know it's open for interpretation. You know, I wrote 455 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: it about someone I know personally who was having problems 456 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: with this the whole me Too movement thing, and had 457 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: been accusing some things, and um, you know, so the 458 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: first time I've known anyone who was going through that, 459 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: and you know, nothing had been proving you but of course, 460 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, all the accusations start rolling in and storming in, 461 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, everybody abandoned him. He lost 462 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: his management, and he was supposed to have an album 463 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: or two albums were supposed to be coming out. Those 464 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: got shelved, and I mean just you know, his whole 465 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: world's collapsed for and you know, he's an artist I've 466 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: always admired, you know, as far as his artistry. Yeah, 467 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: and you know I was able to It's a song 468 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: about compassion again, you know, and it could be about 469 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: I think it could be about anybody who's a victim, 470 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: if you will of you know, the press or and 471 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: all of that. You know, people are talking about you, 472 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: and you know the misunderstandings that come from with all that. 473 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: You know, tell me about when the Way gets dark. Well, 474 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, that's one of my simpler songs that at 475 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: first I thought even I wondered if if it was 476 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: even good enough. I guess because it didn't really have those, 477 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 1: you know, I guess that kind of depth or something, 478 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, lyrically, but there's something about it, the simplicity, 479 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: I think one out, you know, And I started experimenting 480 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: with that kind of writing when I did when I 481 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: was doing Essence, the songs or Essence, because the thing 482 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: is like Car Wheels really set the bar, you know, 483 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: from our song writing goes. And so as soon as 484 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: I had to start working on songs for the next 485 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: album after Car Wheels, it was really challenging because I thought, well, 486 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: what am I gonna do. I'm gonna have to always 487 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: be writing songs, and you know, these narrative involved songs 488 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: that some of which take a long time to write, 489 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: you know. So with Essence, I gave my self permission 490 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: to kind of just write some of these like are 491 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: You Down, you know, which is as far by the 492 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: music a short day, by the way, is that right? Okay? 493 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: And it's just like this little simple song. But now 494 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: when we play it, it's a great lot because the 495 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: band takes off and does this whole you know, kind 496 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: of musical interlude thing and people are dancing and stuff, 497 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: and you know, I kind of have to every now 498 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: and then I have to remind myself it's okay. Every 499 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: single song doesn't have to be this literary infused narrative masterpiece, 500 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: you know, like so, you know, but sometimes I worry 501 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: about that. Have you been tempted? And I'm sure you're 502 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: asked this all the time to do sort of a 503 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: bigger literary form like a novel or a short story 504 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: or being a songwriter. One time I got asked to 505 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: I think actually Rosie and Cash was this was years 506 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,239 Speaker 1: and years ago in the nineties, who was asking as 507 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: songwriters to take one of their songs and make a 508 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: shark story out of it. And I thought the first 509 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: one that came to mind at that time. I was 510 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: going to try it with Connie Old that song because 511 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 1: it had such a great story behind it, you know. 512 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: But I sat down to try to do it and 513 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: found it to be I felt, you know, found it 514 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: to be very challenging. And I don't know, maybe it's 515 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: because I grew up around poets and novelists and I 516 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: sort of felt, like, you know, my dad kind of 517 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: drummed and kind of drilled into me that, you know 518 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: the difference between portray and songwriting for instance, you know, 519 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: like I remember one time I gave him something that 520 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: I thought might become a poem and because I wasn't sure, 521 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, and so I gave it to him and 522 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: he said, you wrote me back and said, honey, I 523 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: think this wants to be a song, you know. And 524 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: there's kind of that sense of like I'm deploy the songwriter. Well, 525 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: I think you should go back. You should go back 526 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: and do that. Throws in cash. I have the I 527 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: have this fantasy of, you know, when I'm older, having 528 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,439 Speaker 1: a big old house and one of those big, nice 529 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: control desk and control chairs, and I'm sitting there, you know, 530 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: working on my novel Shining comes in mind, and bringing 531 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: little sandwiches and then looks at the you know, looks 532 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: at the typewriter and I'm typing the same thing over 533 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: and over again. Now, I think you should do it, 534 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: and you should call the book cover version. You have 535 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: to cover your own songs in short stories. Okay, I've 536 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 1: taken up so much your time. It's been really wonderful. Yeah, 537 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: it has. I thought I've made any fun round. Thanks 538 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: for listening to Williams, for taking the time to chat 539 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: with and perform for Bruce. You can hear a new 540 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: album and all our favorite loosen to Williams songs. But 541 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: heading to Broken Record podcast dot com and be sure 542 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: to check out our YouTube channel. We're putting up all 543 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: our old episodes and our new ones, sometimes with bonus content. 544 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: You can subscribe at YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast. 545 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with help from Jason Gambrell, Neil LaBelle, 546 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: Leo Rose, and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. Our theme 547 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.