Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought to you
Speaker 1: by the monster that is definitely under your bed. You
Speaker 1: should look right now, it's really scary now. Instead, it's
Speaker 1: brought to you by the thing that might keep you
Speaker 1: safe from the monster under your bed. That's right, pets
Speaker 1: or pets that are waiting to be pets, or animals
Speaker 1: that are waiting to be pets. Either way, go donate
Speaker 1: to your local charity because pets are the best thing
Speaker 1: ever and everybody needs a forever home, and you know
Speaker 1: they help protect you from the monster under your bed. Well,
Speaker 1: hey there, and welcome to a special episode of the
Speaker 1: podcast past, the final week of our how Are We
Speaker 1: In series and Halloween Extravaganza, a Halloween story. You got
Speaker 1: to be creepy this week, not like last week. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah that one. Okay, sorry, it was a good one.
Speaker 1: It was. Well, I'll tell you what. So this is
Speaker 1: one of those shows where we're going to cover three
Speaker 1: different mysteries in one show. So buckle up and let's
Speaker 1: get right into it. Since I'm the one doing all
Speaker 1: the talking at the moment, I'll start us off. And
Speaker 1: they're Halloween, so they're they're creepy, they're creepy stories for Halloween.
Speaker 1: So don't be listening to this in the dark by
Speaker 1: yourself more do that's your thing. The first story that
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is the unsolved murder of
Speaker 1: Leroy Carter. Actually, you know, before we actually get in
Speaker 1: the story, you know, I just realized people who don't
Speaker 1: know us who we are. We're just in such a
Speaker 1: good mood, just want to go what is my name?
Speaker 1: Your Joe, your Devon and I'm Steve. It's true. There
Speaker 1: we go. Instance this is Halloween. Just be warned. They're
Speaker 1: all kind of gross, creepy stories. So munchkins around, maybe
Speaker 1: turn the sweat off till later, oh just in case. Okay,
Speaker 1: So my story, the Murder of Leroy Carter, takes place
Speaker 1: in February nine, eight one in Golden Gate Park in
Speaker 1: San Francisco, California. By definition, cannot be creepy because it's February. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the only let me, let me, let me warm
Speaker 1: up to it. You're gonna be creeped out. Specifically in
Speaker 1: Golden Gate Park, though, our story takes place next to
Speaker 1: Alverd Lake, which is really just a teeny tiny little
Speaker 1: body of waters like twenty by forty but they anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well at the time in the park wasn't really a
Speaker 1: nice place to hang out. It had a reputation at
Speaker 1: night for having junkies and hoodlum's prowling around all the time. Hoodlums. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of you when if you
Speaker 1: read about this story, everybody brings up the fact that
Speaker 1: it's right there at the end of Hate Street because
Speaker 1: Hate Street is so famous. But it really doesn't have
Speaker 1: anything to do with the story, but you'll see it.
Speaker 1: So our story specifically takes place, or it begins on Sunday,
Speaker 1: the eighth of February, when somebody found a body in
Speaker 1: the bushes. The body was inside of a sleeping bag,
Speaker 1: and at first everything seemed normal, just another normal dead body,
Speaker 1: yeah right, And it all seemed normal right up until
Speaker 1: the police removed the bag, the sleeping bag from the
Speaker 1: bushes and the body from the bag, only to discover
Speaker 1: that the head was missing. It seems like your head
Speaker 1: is usually like near the opening of the bag. So
Speaker 1: it's like, seems like they would have noticed that sooner.
Speaker 1: But okay, I probably as it was just a really
Speaker 1: short homeless guy. Yeah, I don't know, but so the
Speaker 1: the head is missing, and every article I've read said
Speaker 1: that in place of a head in the neck which,
Speaker 1: by the way, the neck had been cleanly cut with
Speaker 1: a sharp object. Uh, probably did it in one stroke.
Speaker 1: But the investigators found in the neck shoved in there
Speaker 1: were two corn cobs and a chicken wing. That's what
Speaker 1: I used to replace heads normally. Yep, had a little placeholder. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Reportedly also about a dozen yards away. Sometimes you'll see
Speaker 1: this fifties sometimes a dozen. Uh, there was. The mutilated
Speaker 1: bodies of a couple of chickens were also found, so
Speaker 1: that unsolved crime has also not been solved. Who murdered
Speaker 1: these poor chickens? Yeah, people don't seem to care that
Speaker 1: much about chicken. It's it's foul um o. This is
Speaker 1: Halloween stot making fun. So let's get into the story
Speaker 1: that we'll get serious here. So the fingerprints, uh, the
Speaker 1: fingerprint of the body, and they would learn that it
Speaker 1: was twenty nine year old African American Vietnam veteran by
Speaker 1: the name of Leroy Carter. Leroy had a small history
Speaker 1: of arrests, but nothing major. So it didn't explain why
Speaker 1: he was headless in the park, Like he didn't get
Speaker 1: whacked by doing some crazy job or making the wrong
Speaker 1: people mad. I was homeless at the time, That is
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. So he was sleeping in the park. Nothing
Speaker 1: unusual about that for him, I guess it's true, But
Speaker 1: but not to say that he deserved it. If somebody
Speaker 1: I don't want anybody, I just want, there will be
Speaker 1: no question about that in anybody's And that's not what
Speaker 1: we said. So this is one in San Francisco, and
Speaker 1: this is a case that immediately has the stink of
Speaker 1: voodoo on it, and the cops that are investigating the
Speaker 1: crime really don't want to do anything about it and
Speaker 1: don't really know what to do about it. So they
Speaker 1: turned the case over to Inspector Sandy Gallant. Now she
Speaker 1: had made a bit of a name for herself in
Speaker 1: dealing with odd cases. She had handled the investigation of
Speaker 1: the San Francisco area members of the People's Temple. And
Speaker 1: then you remember the People's Temple. This was a couple
Speaker 1: of years after it. But they're the ones who all
Speaker 1: moved to Anna and then took a couple of shots
Speaker 1: at then Congressman Leo Ryan and and then famous and
Speaker 1: then famously drank the flavor Raid and committed mass suicide.
Speaker 1: So she was involved in investigating those people in some
Speaker 1: of the locals members of the church that were still
Speaker 1: in the area. Now, we discussed that in one of
Speaker 1: our previous episodes. We did. Now, as you can imagine,
Speaker 1: go on and all the other cops really don't know
Speaker 1: what the heck they're dealing with. Like I said, they
Speaker 1: figured it had to be something occult and voodoo wish,
Speaker 1: but they didn't know what's going on. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the top of guys heading off head off and put
Speaker 1: a couple of corn cops in there had a chicken
Speaker 1: wing that's weird, and the just set it there. I
Speaker 1: mean they stuffed it down with like a topic as
Speaker 1: or something, didn't they. I heard that they were inserted
Speaker 1: into the neck. I believe that would be the only
Speaker 1: place that you could probably readily put so I figured
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, I mean I haven't I haven't be
Speaker 1: headed very many people, but yeah, you know that's I
Speaker 1: think that's the only big real hole there. Yeah. Now
Speaker 1: Gallant she needs help, and she reaches out to a
Speaker 1: guy named Charles well Wetley. He is the Dade County,
Speaker 1: Florida corner that's like like South Florida. Yeah, that's Miami, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: right in that area Miami did And she did this first. Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't know how she what path led her to,
Speaker 1: uh to talk to to Wetley, but apparently he had
Speaker 1: dealt with similar or stuff like this, because she had
Speaker 1: been led to believe that this might have been something
Speaker 1: to do with the religion of Santa Ria, which yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a cribba. Well it it initially it's
Speaker 1: actually from Central Africa, and then the slaves came to
Speaker 1: the Caribbean and then it morphed the Actually the the
Speaker 1: history of that religion, it's pretty interesting if you read
Speaker 1: about it, the way that they hit it within Catholicism
Speaker 1: so that they wouldn't get in trouble with their their
Speaker 1: slave owners. But so this this leads her down that
Speaker 1: path's say, okay, who knows about Santria? Okay, Wetley, Well,
Speaker 1: she gets all to him and he tells her that, yeah,
Speaker 1: it probably is connected, but more than likely it's actually
Speaker 1: directly linked to an offshoot of that religion, which is
Speaker 1: Palo Mayombe. I really hope I pronounced that right, That's
Speaker 1: how I did it. It's it's a darker, creepier off. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's already a little bit. There's much more sacrifice,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about some of the some theories
Speaker 1: and and later on here we'll get into it. But
Speaker 1: what actually, you know what, let's just talk about it
Speaker 1: now because this is this is what's going on, is
Speaker 1: Wetley is telling her that it's both likely that and
Speaker 1: he's saying that what's happened is the head has probably
Speaker 1: been taken to be used in I'm going to call
Speaker 1: it a student like concoction to make a potion. Head's
Speaker 1: gonna be boiled, it's gonna be then the remnants are
Speaker 1: going to be used in some kind of black magic ritual.
Speaker 1: I don't know what that would be. He didn't venture
Speaker 1: to guess specifically what it was, but it was going
Speaker 1: to be some type of ritual. Uh. Now, this offshoot religion,
Speaker 1: the priests, Pilario's is what they're called, at least the men. Uh.
Speaker 1: They use both animal and human body parts. In this case,
Speaker 1: it would be the skull, the brain, the nose, the ears,
Speaker 1: the basically everything that's on the head. Because I could
Speaker 1: have just said the head to go into that potion
Speaker 1: that they're making and then they can use it themselves
Speaker 1: or they could sell it to somebody to use for whatever.
Speaker 1: And they were going to use that that ingredient mix
Speaker 1: for That's still a thing that you see, uh, like
Speaker 1: a lot in Africa these days, where um, there's this
Speaker 1: big plight of kids who are born albino in certain
Speaker 1: African communities because there are religions that are still practicing
Speaker 1: in certain parts of Africa where albinos are like, I mean,
Speaker 1: they're this is like what they do. They think that
Speaker 1: like they have this insane magic inside of them, and
Speaker 1: they are often no, no, no, they're not revered. They
Speaker 1: are often slaughtered human human children are slaughtered to like
Speaker 1: because they have some kind of magic. Yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 1: that's like it's crazy to me that that's still happening.
Speaker 1: But like, this isn't like a made up thing. This
Speaker 1: is the thing that actually we have even now documented
Speaker 1: proof that that's happening still. So so practitioners of that religion,
Speaker 1: this is this is serious. Series is not like a
Speaker 1: laughing matter. It's it's it's definitely the real deal for them.
Speaker 1: So what Whatley says is he says, listen, they has
Speaker 1: been taken, Uh, it's going to be used in this way.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Whoever did it is probably going
Speaker 1: to return it. And if they return it, they will
Speaker 1: return it to the sit to the site of the murder,
Speaker 1: and they will do it forty two days after the killing,
Speaker 1: because that was a part of this, the whole ritual.
Speaker 1: You had to return Otherwise the whole thing doesn't work right.
Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a piece of it. Wasn't there
Speaker 1: another one like this where somebody sat, maybe recently even
Speaker 1: where somebody said, no, the head's going to be returned
Speaker 1: forty two days later, and they were like, yeah, okay, right,
Speaker 1: it might have been this one that I'm actually thinking
Speaker 1: it's I'm pretty sure it's this one. Because this is
Speaker 1: this is the biggest irony of this story. This is
Speaker 1: why I like this story so much. Is that he
Speaker 1: tells goal out this and she says, okay, great, And
Speaker 1: on the forty second day where the cops staking out
Speaker 1: the park and checking it all out and wait for
Speaker 1: the murder, no, none of them went. None of them
Speaker 1: believed it. And somebody did find the head in the
Speaker 1: weeds on the forty second day, So our killer nearby
Speaker 1: where locked up dumped the head in the tall grass
Speaker 1: and just walked away Sky. That's one of the comical
Speaker 1: things about this story. I don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: sound like I'm making like because somebody who did die,
Speaker 1: but I'm just just imagining to see it in the
Speaker 1: cop in the cop shop, they're all standing around, you know,
Speaker 1: chewing on a donut and have some coffee. If somebody
Speaker 1: who walks in and says, hey, you'll never guess what
Speaker 1: turned up. Yeah at yeah, I met. There were some
Speaker 1: sour expressions. I don't think that went over so well.
Speaker 1: It reminds me of that scene in The Boondock Saints
Speaker 1: where like the local cops are like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: these guys are miles away and the FBI guys there
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, they're going to show up, and
Speaker 1: like as the other guy, the local cop is like there,
Speaker 1: I know all these names. I just don't think anybody
Speaker 1: else's um He's like, no, no no, they're gonna be miles away.
Speaker 1: They like walk they walk into the police station like
Speaker 1: while he's like ranting, And that reminds me of this
Speaker 1: so much, where it's just like one person was like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's gonna happen, and everyone else just kind of blew
Speaker 1: them off, and the case totally would have been solved
Speaker 1: if somebody would have just taken him seriously. But now, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it was inspired by this, I'm pretty sure Troy
Speaker 1: Duffy man. Okay, at least Sandy got to like, you know,
Speaker 1: like bad to them about it endlessly for years until
Speaker 1: you know what She's She's made a real name for
Speaker 1: herself since then, dealing with weird cases that have the
Speaker 1: occult and magic seemed to be linked to them, and
Speaker 1: she takes these things deadly serious. Now, if this case
Speaker 1: it happens, say, ten years later, and she had caught it,
Speaker 1: she'd have been there on the forty second day. But
Speaker 1: in the beginning she was still just so new that
Speaker 1: the whole thing. She's like, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe well, I mean, realistically, things like this have to
Speaker 1: happen for people to take it seriously. Right, So it
Speaker 1: is a tragedy, right, but if if anything good came
Speaker 1: of this, I'm sorry to say, something good could have
Speaker 1: come to this. Hopefully it means that more cases in
Speaker 1: the future and more contemporarily have been solved because the
Speaker 1: investigators are taking it seriously and really saying like this
Speaker 1: is actually a thing that happens, and we're going to
Speaker 1: actually treat it with respect this time. Okay, Well, let's
Speaker 1: let's get into the theories for this story. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: So really there's a pretty shortlist of theories here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The first one is that yes, it is Apollo may
Speaker 1: umby thing, and that's what it was. And here's some
Speaker 1: things to know. The there have been multiple cases where
Speaker 1: the practitioners of this religion are stealing bodies or body
Speaker 1: parts from graves. And the stuff that I've read has
Speaker 1: led me to believe or understand that the fresher the body,
Speaker 1: the stronger the power. That it does make sense, and
Speaker 1: it just seems to me it would be easier. Frankly,
Speaker 1: this may sound callous, but to just kill a homeless
Speaker 1: dude in the sleeping bag then to go dig up
Speaker 1: a grave, yeah, it's less likely get caught, uh, and
Speaker 1: it's way fresher. Yeah. So here's there's a couple of
Speaker 1: well known cases and I'll give you these here. So
Speaker 1: this was in New York about a decade or so ago.
Speaker 1: There was a pair of priests. They were a father
Speaker 1: and son and they were found to have at least
Speaker 1: two human skulls and some other human bones in pots
Speaker 1: in the basement of their home, which the police were
Speaker 1: pretty sure had been Pilford from a local graveyard. Then
Speaker 1: a series of breaks. When you say in pots, pots
Speaker 1: with water over over burners, it doesn't it never actually
Speaker 1: specified that. I'm going to guess they were probably a
Speaker 1: dry storage. They would only I don't think they would
Speaker 1: keep them soaking until they needed him, because it's you know,
Speaker 1: there's a recipe you do it for a certain amount
Speaker 1: of time with certain things. So I doubt they just
Speaker 1: had them sitting around pretty so in the freezer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I would pre brew because you
Speaker 1: just stick a cork in it and then you know,
Speaker 1: somebody says, hey, I'm gonna buy this thing from me,
Speaker 1: and you say, great, here a hundred bucks. They don't
Speaker 1: have time to question am I going to come back
Speaker 1: to that? And I don't think that's I don't think
Speaker 1: that's right, because if you think about it, there's a
Speaker 1: certain mystique to saying, come back to me in forty
Speaker 1: two days, I will have brewed your thing. That really
Speaker 1: they could have been brewing there the thing, but you
Speaker 1: don't know that everything takes the same ingredients regards. Okay,
Speaker 1: there have been there is also there's another one. This
Speaker 1: was also I don't know why these are out in
Speaker 1: New York, but there was another one where a woman
Speaker 1: had was found with a bunch of bones and it
Speaker 1: turned out her followers had been the ones that were
Speaker 1: going out and stealing the bones from the graveyard, and
Speaker 1: they busted the guy. I remember, they busted the guy
Speaker 1: with the bones, and he then turned around and squealing
Speaker 1: on her and that's how they got her. Um, there's
Speaker 1: and there's here's one that's a little more in line
Speaker 1: with what we're dealing with with our case, which is
Speaker 1: back in the eighties in Mexico City, there was a
Speaker 1: guy by the name of a Dolfo Costanzo and he
Speaker 1: started practicing the religion and by the end of the decade,
Speaker 1: this guy had kind of gone off the deep end.
Speaker 1: He got in bed with the cartels and so these
Speaker 1: things that he was making, these spells were for the
Speaker 1: cartel to help things go better for them when they
Speaker 1: eventually got him, and you know, he would be shot
Speaker 1: to death by day. I mean the authorities and correct
Speaker 1: for the police. Yes, you're right. The police cornered him
Speaker 1: and so he had one of his own people take
Speaker 1: him out. But yeah, they found they found, gosh what
Speaker 1: it was like thirteen bodies buried on his property, in
Speaker 1: various states of decomposition, in various parts missing from them,
Speaker 1: and the whole thing came crashing down on him because
Speaker 1: he was in thirteen it was fifteen bodies, but he
Speaker 1: had he had made the mistake or his people did,
Speaker 1: of killing a US student who was there on spring break.
Speaker 1: He was a premed student, if I remember right. And
Speaker 1: then the US was like, hey, you need to take
Speaker 1: this guy out. So then they went ahead and went
Speaker 1: after him, and that's how the whole thing came crashing
Speaker 1: down for him. So but I mean this the shows
Speaker 1: that this does happen. It's not as if we've just
Speaker 1: kind of made this up on our own. It also
Speaker 1: might help explain the mutilated chickens, because I have I
Speaker 1: have read a few articles that at least anecdotally link
Speaker 1: chicken mutilation or other kind of ritualistic mutilation mutilation of
Speaker 1: animals to this kind of spell casting. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: if you know, I'm not a member of that group.
Speaker 1: So I don't actually know the rules, right, but I
Speaker 1: would assume that, you know, there'd be some sort of
Speaker 1: connection there if it was a ritual. Right, poor chickens,
Speaker 1: you know, we eat them, we steal their eggs, and
Speaker 1: then we grab and use them and this stuff. It's
Speaker 1: just like that. They're kind of jerks chickens. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't care that it's coming from a guy who
Speaker 1: has chickens. But but you know, the other thing we
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit earlier is not only
Speaker 1: is this deadly serious of these people and it's real,
Speaker 1: but it turns out for the priests, it is a
Speaker 1: huge cash cow. Yeah, and so you could see the
Speaker 1: appeal of let's say, let's just say somebody comes to
Speaker 1: the priests and says, I need you to do this thing,
Speaker 1: for this crazy, crazy thing. He says, oh, well, that's
Speaker 1: gonna take the most powerful spell ever and to do that,
Speaker 1: it's gonna cost you out a lot of money and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go to this huge length. So
Speaker 1: that's gonna mean it's gonna be even more money. And
Speaker 1: you know, realistically he doesn't maybe do as much other
Speaker 1: than he does, as Joe said, sneak into the park
Speaker 1: and find a sleeping homeless guy and chop his head
Speaker 1: off with a machete, because I'm pretty sure it's a machete. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but then that would bump the price a little bit.
Speaker 1: Murder somebody, very ingredients. Yeah, sorry, this is very calcium.
Speaker 1: But I kind of like the idea of like you
Speaker 1: go see your your whatever, which doctor, priest, whatever, and
Speaker 1: you know, you say, listen, I need this whatever miracle
Speaker 1: level thing done, and he goes, okay, well do you
Speaker 1: have the head? And you're like, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: Do I have the head? And he's like the human head.
Speaker 1: I need the human head. And you're like, I don't
Speaker 1: have the human head. What do you mean? And they're like,
Speaker 1: oh that price, that like a hundred thousand dollar price
Speaker 1: that I told you that was if you brought your
Speaker 1: own head. You don't have your own head. Well the
Speaker 1: cost yeah it doubled, so all right, your own head.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah that makes sense. But I like the idea, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you go to this guy and he telling
Speaker 1: me your issue, and he submits a bid too, and
Speaker 1: it's got the itemized list. Okay, okay, murder helpless hobost
Speaker 1: geth head. You I'm really sorry. This is like, we
Speaker 1: don't think it's funny that like this murder happened on
Speaker 1: we've turned this into a sitcom scenario. But also, I'm
Speaker 1: really sorry to anybody. I actually, I guess I'm not.
Speaker 1: I was going to apologize to anybody who practices pollo.
Speaker 1: My don't kill us, but I don't really I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: we don't put a hex on us. Let's finish up
Speaker 1: the theory that. Yeah, okay, so the final bit of
Speaker 1: the theory is, well, why was it leroy? And really
Speaker 1: what it comes down to is it most likely he
Speaker 1: was just in the wrong place at the wrong time
Speaker 1: according to this theory. From there, we've got we've got
Speaker 1: two other theories. One is that it's just a random
Speaker 1: murder which some random killer went out there and sliced
Speaker 1: his head off and thinking it was funny, shoves the
Speaker 1: core cops in the chicken wing in his neck. And
Speaker 1: then because of all of the press coverage, because by
Speaker 1: the way, this thing was covered in the news a
Speaker 1: little bit at the time, but it did get some coverage.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, you know, national news, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: the did they actually say the news that all the
Speaker 1: Santa stuff the head would be returned. I think that
Speaker 1: that was in the paper. I was trying to find
Speaker 1: articles from the time. But you know how hard it
Speaker 1: is sometimes to a real especially if it's not like
Speaker 1: a crazy story. But I mean you could see where
Speaker 1: this guy says, oh, wait, I still have the head
Speaker 1: because I was going to make it into an ash
Speaker 1: tray where the head is, but the cops wanted there. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'll just take it back. And then, you know, as
Speaker 1: Joe and say, this throws him off the trail for
Speaker 1: when I do my next killing. Well, I will say,
Speaker 1: I assume the cops searched that specific patch where the
Speaker 1: head did show up. But but but we're assuming, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's possible they must have searched it. But people do
Speaker 1: miss things, Yeah, they really, I mean they really do.
Speaker 1: So it's also possible the head was there the entire
Speaker 1: time and somebody just went looking. You know, somebody was like, oh,
Speaker 1: we'll go look after forty two days and we'll see,
Speaker 1: and they went and they were like, oh, here's I
Speaker 1: tend to take. Probably they didn't go looking after forty
Speaker 1: two days. Some somebody was walking in the park and
Speaker 1: they saw the head. Yeah. I also tend to I
Speaker 1: also tend to think that they would be able to
Speaker 1: tell if it had just been sitting there for forty
Speaker 1: two days, or if somebody had like boiled the heck
Speaker 1: out of it, and somebody, you know, I could have
Speaker 1: been sitting there forty two days, it would have been eaten,
Speaker 1: not chewed on by the animals a lot. That's a
Speaker 1: that's a great point. We never ever see anything that
Speaker 1: talks about the actual condition of the head right upon
Speaker 1: its retrieval, so we have no idea, right, yeah, but
Speaker 1: presumably if it had been left out there the entire time,
Speaker 1: they would have just been able to tell by that,
Speaker 1: just the state of the head, you know, and all
Speaker 1: the animal bites on it and stuff like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: the only other thing I have, I mean, there's there's
Speaker 1: really no theories here. The only other thing is that, well,
Speaker 1: maybe it was Chupy, but he's not known for doing
Speaker 1: good clean slices. He d you know, saws his way
Speaker 1: through there, So I think we can clear him in
Speaker 1: this one. I think it was probably voodoo. I think
Speaker 1: it's probably well what about what about the theory that
Speaker 1: his head fell off? It could maybe maybe some good
Speaker 1: Samaritans saw the head and thought, oh my god, the
Speaker 1: head needs to be like rehabbed or something. I'll take
Speaker 1: into rehab and that after fourties days, A gave up
Speaker 1: and brought it back to screw you head, You head.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's it. It's like a Walt Disney
Speaker 1: situation right where they preserve the head, only no, I
Speaker 1: don't think so. Well, you don't think they do that
Speaker 1: for like random homeless people in Central Park or Golden
Speaker 1: Gate Park, gar I don't think so. I got my story.
Speaker 1: What apologies to Chippy. I gotta say, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: buying into the whole voodoo story myself. Yeah, I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, Chippy could have been the purchaser of said
Speaker 1: but I think I think Chepy's got enough mojo he
Speaker 1: doesn't need to go out and pay for it. It's
Speaker 1: probably true, yeah, but you know, just if there's one
Speaker 1: thing I've learned from this story, though, is that I'm
Speaker 1: never gonna buy used crock pot from anybody. It's brand
Speaker 1: new in the box, they're pretty cheap. My family they
Speaker 1: just bought me one of those. Grab Yeah. Alright, well,
Speaker 1: so much for that one. I've got my own creepy
Speaker 1: Halloween story. Yeah, this is a case of Christopher case.
Speaker 1: Love this one the Christopher Case case exactly well put Yeah,
Speaker 1: this one, this one is about ten years more newer
Speaker 1: than the other one this happened. Yeah, that's more better,
Speaker 1: ye cross Uh. This begins in mid April. April nineteenth nine,
Speaker 1: Seattle police got a call from a woman in Fayetteville,
Speaker 1: North Carolina, asking him to do a check on a
Speaker 1: man that she was concerned about. Police want buy and
Speaker 1: checked his apartment. And this is actually like the second
Speaker 1: or so time that they had stopped by the check
Speaker 1: on him. And they finally apparently found the door open,
Speaker 1: and they went inside and they found him in his apartment,
Speaker 1: in the bathtub with all his clothes on dead. Was
Speaker 1: she a friend, She was a friend, Yeah, somebody, somebody
Speaker 1: that he had worked with apparently, and she just hadn't
Speaker 1: seen him in a while. Yeah. They were now like
Speaker 1: living across country from which but they stayed in contact. Yeah,
Speaker 1: our our guy in the bath The dead guy was
Speaker 1: named Christopher Case, and the phone call to the police
Speaker 1: was from a friend of his named Sandy Souder. She
Speaker 1: said that Christopher told her that he had been cursed
Speaker 1: by a witch and that he had called her repeatedly
Speaker 1: to report that he was being attacked in the night
Speaker 1: while he tried to sleep. I understand that, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: I don't think Christopher had a cat. When police looked
Speaker 1: around the apartment that they did find a lot of
Speaker 1: crucifixes scattered about, especially he was in the bathtub. As
Speaker 1: I said, they found like crucifixes around the bathtub, sitting
Speaker 1: on the sitting sitting on the rim of the bathtub.
Speaker 1: And they also noticed that somebody had poured a line
Speaker 1: of salt around the perimeter of the apartment at the
Speaker 1: base of the walls, with extra little piles of salt
Speaker 1: in the corners. And everything I've learned from the TV
Speaker 1: shows Supernatural says that's keeping out ghosts and other bad
Speaker 1: creepiness like that. Well, I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I would take them all that seriously. But I
Speaker 1: mean maybe in Supernatural, but I'm just saying in real life,
Speaker 1: it's chocol it's chalk lines. Really, no, it's Supernatural, it's
Speaker 1: real it's it's the salt. Well, they have Fox Molder
Speaker 1: use salt in the X Files once to take people
Speaker 1: away his zombi demon kind of thing. So demons. Yeah,
Speaker 1: ghosts and bad spirits. It's choco. I'm sorry, just trying
Speaker 1: to you know, educate our listeners. The ghosts they're getting
Speaker 1: the one you need it. Yeah, a little salt is
Speaker 1: a good thing, and it's I can use it for
Speaker 1: other things like cooking, Yeah, or you know snails. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good point. Oh yeah where else they found salt also
Speaker 1: on the doorstep outside poured and geometric designs, which is odd. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And now the man who claimed to have the curse
Speaker 1: was dead in his bath There were no signs of violence,
Speaker 1: no obvious cause of death. And by the way, I
Speaker 1: just in case you're wondering where there was no water
Speaker 1: in the bathtub. He did not drowned. He had his
Speaker 1: clothes on. I just assumed he did drown. No, no,
Speaker 1: no water. It was not a bathtub accident. Um, there
Speaker 1: was a bathtub death. Yeah. But let me give you
Speaker 1: a little background to the whole the whole thing, how
Speaker 1: this all began. And also a shout out to Jacob
Speaker 1: our listener who suggested this story, although I think I
Speaker 1: actually found it on list first. You know, one of
Speaker 1: those ones that has ten creepy mysteries that will make
Speaker 1: it craft cair pants. You know that was signs of once. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: back to the beginning. Christopher Case was thirty five years
Speaker 1: old when he died. He was raised in Richmond, Virginia
Speaker 1: known Witch. Oh yeah, totally, worked as a disc jockey
Speaker 1: in the East Coast before he got his last job,
Speaker 1: which was at the Music Company in Seattle. Do you
Speaker 1: use that company? Yeah? I m u z a K.
Speaker 1: They make elevator music or are they still around? So
Speaker 1: he was working in Seattle doing that. In about a
Speaker 1: week or so before he died, he made a business
Speaker 1: trip to San Francisco, where he was introduced to a
Speaker 1: woman who thought that the music company might be interested
Speaker 1: in some ancient Egyptian music. Well actually, and also Christopher
Speaker 1: himself was kind of interested in various weird old music,
Speaker 1: so he was kind of into it too. And I've
Speaker 1: never got in a name for this mystery woman, knowing
Speaker 1: much of a description except that she was older. And
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what that meant, if that meant that
Speaker 1: she was older than Christopher Case or just old, but
Speaker 1: that was how he described her to her his friend
Speaker 1: Sammy Souder. Again I mentioned her earlier. What what Christopher
Speaker 1: Case told Sammy souder was that this woman was quote
Speaker 1: unquote intense. Apparently, he you know, was a little it
Speaker 1: was a little weird. He felt like something about it
Speaker 1: was a little bit off. And they met a second time,
Speaker 1: which has had a restaurant and they had dinner. Uh,
Speaker 1: and it was then as she told him that she
Speaker 1: was a witch and apparently she said she wanted to
Speaker 1: have sex. I don't know how she put it, yeah,
Speaker 1: how she how she made a pass at him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but apparently the whole thing was a bit off putting
Speaker 1: for Christopher because he just said no. Or maybe the
Speaker 1: it was ugly, maybe it wasn't the way she put
Speaker 1: her at all. I don't know. Love the reenactment that
Speaker 1: Australia just yea crazy yellow eyes. It's the funniest thing.
Speaker 1: Got crazy yellow eyes and a sort of crazy expression
Speaker 1: on you know. But but yeah, the reenactment is hilarious
Speaker 1: because she has this crazy looking yellow and you hear
Speaker 1: her voice more and he's all, I don't I don't
Speaker 1: think that she puts a curse on him or you
Speaker 1: never know. I mean they portrayed as being kind of
Speaker 1: a nice guy, but he might have been totally rude himself.
Speaker 1: Maybe he might just laughed in her face. And you kid,
Speaker 1: I'd rather do it with dogs. Yeah. Yeah. And so
Speaker 1: whatever she puts a curse on him, she's not pleased
Speaker 1: about being rejected. Uh. And at first he wasn't stressed
Speaker 1: about it at all. You didn't believe in the occult.
Speaker 1: This was not as according to his friends, he was
Speaker 1: not some sort of occult type person. Which what's weird
Speaker 1: about this story. Things did start to happen and he'd
Speaker 1: wake up in the night. There'd bet he noticed strange
Speaker 1: shadows moving around in his room. Uh. And once he
Speaker 1: woke up and he found that he had little small
Speaker 1: cuts on his fingers, you know, maybe kind of some
Speaker 1: kind of defensive wounds. And that's what he told Sammy suitter.
Speaker 1: And this was I think a couple of days before
Speaker 1: he died, told her about that. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if the cuts were still there when he died, if
Speaker 1: they found them at the autopsy or not. I don't
Speaker 1: remember hearing anything about that. I don't either. I get
Speaker 1: the feeling that they were on the level of paper cuts,
Speaker 1: little cuts, yeah, a little bit he cuts. It's also
Speaker 1: I you know, I have a tiny little cut on
Speaker 1: one of my knuckles that I noticed today. I don't
Speaker 1: know when I got it. I'm pretty sure which didn't
Speaker 1: give it to me in my sleep, but maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it is weird when you get when you wound
Speaker 1: yourself and you don't even remember doing it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, those little cuts are super easy though,
Speaker 1: especially paper cuts. You don't really notice some until you're
Speaker 1: like washing your hands or like cutting lemons or something. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Christopher Case was trying to sleep. He couldn't get any
Speaker 1: sleep because he was again he felt that he was
Speaker 1: being attacked and of course the lack of sleep and
Speaker 1: in turn could not have exactly helped his state of mind.
Speaker 1: Its vicious circle, okay, is he began to research ways
Speaker 1: to ward off witches. On Tuesday, April, that's two days
Speaker 1: before he died, he went to a Christian bookstore and
Speaker 1: bought some crusifixes. And the store's owner was a guy
Speaker 1: named Rodney Hgucci, and he actually talked to Christopher and
Speaker 1: he's asked him what he wanted to the crosses for.
Speaker 1: Christopher says, well, I'm under attack from supernatural forces and
Speaker 1: I want these crosses for protection. And he asked also
Speaker 1: if they had been blessed with holy water. I don't
Speaker 1: know what the reply to that was. In Case leaves
Speaker 1: the house I think that night of Tuesday and stays
Speaker 1: in the hotel. He doesn't sleep at home. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: doesn't want to supernom And it didn't help apparently, because well,
Speaker 1: you know, dude, you can't hide from a curse. True. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the hotel isn't your house, it's you. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The next day, Wednesday, April seventeen, he goes back to
Speaker 1: the bookstore. He buys some more crusifixes, and Rodneyhgucci said
Speaker 1: he saw him again. He seemed more agitated, more exhausted,
Speaker 1: more just strung out. And at that point, at the
Speaker 1: first time he saw him, he wasn't too concerned. He figured,
Speaker 1: guy's a little crazy. Second time, he's like, there's something
Speaker 1: seriously wrong with this dude or something and something or
Speaker 1: something really actually is going on here. Also that day,
Speaker 1: Wednesday morning, Christopher Case talked to Sammy one more time,
Speaker 1: told her he thought he might die from the curse,
Speaker 1: and she was concerned about him and kept trying to
Speaker 1: call him back over the course of the day. He
Speaker 1: never answered once. The afternoon, Christopher Case wants to see
Speaker 1: a priest and the priest he was interviewed for that
Speaker 1: Australian TV show by the way, that we mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: it's called the what's it called the Extraordinary? Being Australians,
Speaker 1: they mispronounced the word. They called it like the extraordinary
Speaker 1: or something like that. But anyway, you have the extraordinary.
Speaker 1: The priest said, the case is I'll quote him here,
Speaker 1: could feel this malignant power influencing his body and he
Speaker 1: was scared to death that it was going to kill
Speaker 1: him unquote. So we got a number of people, Sammy,
Speaker 1: a suitor, one other person supposedly also in Fayetteville. He
Speaker 1: was unnamed. Yeah, there was two people that he was two, yeah,
Speaker 1: two women in Fayetteville, the priest, the bookstore owner. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he was obviously really concerned about this whole curse thing.
Speaker 1: When Sammy got home Wednesday night back in Fayetteville, there
Speaker 1: was a message from Christopher on her answering machine, apparently
Speaker 1: his last words at least definitely to her, but maybe
Speaker 1: to anybody. And comedy they played it on that that
Speaker 1: re enact Michell And I'm not sure if that was
Speaker 1: actually his voice on the tape or not. I have
Speaker 1: no idea, but he said, they're trying to kill me unquote. Uh.
Speaker 1: He also said, I'm I'm not looking forward to tonight.
Speaker 1: It's serious. Yeah. About a PM that night, Sammy called
Speaker 1: Seattle p D. He asked them to check on him.
Speaker 1: They won't buy his apartment. They found the quote found
Speaker 1: the place to be secure unquote. In otherwids, the door
Speaker 1: was locked and there was no answer when they rang
Speaker 1: the doorbell. Uh. The police did notice, apparently at that time,
Speaker 1: that somebody had poured a lot of assault around the
Speaker 1: outside of the apartment, like leading from the front door
Speaker 1: to the back door. That's always good for your flower beds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm sure that. I'm sure the ardner was
Speaker 1: Really they didn't, but they didn't notice the geometric patterns
Speaker 1: outside apparently not nobody said, yeah, I would mention that
Speaker 1: over a line of salt. If you were mentioning salt
Speaker 1: at all, wouldn't you say, Like, also, there was this
Speaker 1: weird shape, you would think so, But I mean they
Speaker 1: might not have found a head. Who knows. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: they could have just like not just not really realized
Speaker 1: anything was going on. They just walked up ring the doorbell,
Speaker 1: not realizing they're stopping all over the whole salt thing.
Speaker 1: They're the reason that could have been it exactly the tray.
Speaker 1: And then the next day, Thursday, April eighteenths the Sammy
Speaker 1: Sowder tried to call Christopher Case again, calls him multiple times,
Speaker 1: gets no answer. Spoiler roots because he was dead. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She called Seattle p D again and asked them to
Speaker 1: check on him. They went by his department at three
Speaker 1: thirty pm. According to most reports that I've read, the
Speaker 1: front door was unlocked at this time and they went inside.
Speaker 1: They found the apartment was a mess. There were weird
Speaker 1: little notes all over the place, crucifixes, salts. They wanted
Speaker 1: to to at to him. And they found Christopher Case
Speaker 1: dead in his bath tub, on his knees, has his
Speaker 1: head resting on the edge of the bathtub next to
Speaker 1: the faucet. Yeah, with his clothes on again, burned down,
Speaker 1: burned down candles all around, in crucifixes, and he was dead.
Speaker 1: And the officional Quarter's verdict, naturally, it's got a little notice.
Speaker 1: I sent you guys a couple of articles on the
Speaker 1: local Seattle paper about it. It was a little strange,
Speaker 1: but the official quarter's verdict was a keep miocarditis, which
Speaker 1: is heart failure, right, yeah, specified well, mile card itis
Speaker 1: is like inflammation of the heart muscle. Yeah, Christopher was
Speaker 1: in good health. I had no family history of heart disease.
Speaker 1: Friends said he didn't do drugs, didn't drink much, if
Speaker 1: at all, and they said he was mentally stable. Some
Speaker 1: people said he was less stable with his final days.
Speaker 1: But I guess that's what the curs will do to you,
Speaker 1: you know. But but he still died of heart failure.
Speaker 1: But myocarditis is, as I said, an inflammation of the
Speaker 1: heart muscle. Uh, it is often fatal. Fact, you know,
Speaker 1: to three d people a year in the US die
Speaker 1: from it, so it's not uncommon at all. There are
Speaker 1: a lot of causes. There's infection, including viral and bacterial,
Speaker 1: both toxins, certain drugs, including some antipsychotics, some designer drugs
Speaker 1: can cause it. It can also be caused by an
Speaker 1: autoimmune disorder. So a lot of things can cause this thing.
Speaker 1: Also radiation. Oh so you're saying that this which was
Speaker 1: dropping plutonium in his pocket, probably yeah, that could have
Speaker 1: been it. Of course you I curse you look over there.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Uh. And the Wikipedia does not list witchcraft
Speaker 1: or sorcery has causes of myocarditis. But you know what,
Speaker 1: do they know? They're wrung a lot, right, So what
Speaker 1: caused his heart to fail? We've got several serious here.
Speaker 1: One is that he was just frightened to death, which
Speaker 1: is the real thing. It can happen your heart, put
Speaker 1: that kind of stress in your heart, especially if perhaps
Speaker 1: he had some pre existing condition that none of us
Speaker 1: knew about. Yeah, well there's that. It's the flight er
Speaker 1: flight or fight pattern. The adrenaline that just like surge
Speaker 1: us through your body, can, especially if it's sustained over
Speaker 1: a number of days, which it sounds like he might
Speaker 1: have been, will like it'll just literally overload all of
Speaker 1: your organs. And you know, if your heart is a
Speaker 1: little weaker, it'll just give out. And there are people
Speaker 1: like I I know a guy who just last year,
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, much younger than me, who
Speaker 1: just one day his heart just kind of blew up,
Speaker 1: you know, and no one had a clue. He was
Speaker 1: a totally healthy, very active athletic guy. Bam. And so
Speaker 1: it happens, And so there might it might have been
Speaker 1: the case with little Christopher and just kind of a
Speaker 1: coincidence well, and not entirely been a coincidence that the
Speaker 1: witch puts this thing on him. It's sort of and
Speaker 1: then one odd thing, little sort of odd thing happens,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and then he just sort of
Speaker 1: just attributes it to these could that have been the curse?
Speaker 1: And he starts starts really sort of thinking about it,
Speaker 1: and then it's something a little odd happens. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's real. It's a curse, and it just stresses and
Speaker 1: stresses and stresses, and then just cycle. Yeah it could
Speaker 1: have been. Yeah, uh so that's one theory. He was
Speaker 1: frightened to death, may be exacerbated by a pre existing condition.
Speaker 1: What's our next there? It was witchcraft and I was
Speaker 1: going to call some witches and asked, but then I thought, well,
Speaker 1: what if the witch says, Joe, you must out sex
Speaker 1: with me and then I get a curse on me?
Speaker 1: And I mean I didn't need that, really, we don't
Speaker 1: really need you. Guys wouldn't make the call either. So
Speaker 1: and so's people like to call people. But I was
Speaker 1: a little scared this time around. Uh So, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe one of our listeners can can answer
Speaker 1: this question. I don't know. If an actual, real life
Speaker 1: which is capable of putting this kind of deadly curse
Speaker 1: on a person or not, I don't know anything. We
Speaker 1: will find out. I'm sure sure's somebody less. Now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's another possibility, which was that it was just sheer coincidence.
Speaker 1: Maybe uh, as I said already, it might have been
Speaker 1: a pre existing condition. It's but it's also possible that
Speaker 1: he just at that he just caught, like say, a
Speaker 1: viral infection which you know, inflamed his heart muscle, and
Speaker 1: it just happened to happen, happened around the same time
Speaker 1: at this curse happen, and then of course you know
Speaker 1: he's he's once again feeling some of the effects of
Speaker 1: this in his chest, all this stuff that's going on,
Speaker 1: it starts ticking. Oh my god, it's curs and then
Speaker 1: he dies from it. But it was never never had
Speaker 1: anything to do with the curse at all, not even
Speaker 1: dying of fright. He just died of the hard condition
Speaker 1: out of and it's just a sheer coincidence. There's one
Speaker 1: theory that you have overlooked, which was that he could
Speaker 1: have died from carbon monoxide poisoning. You know, if he's
Speaker 1: laying and sleeping in the tub, and it is surrounded
Speaker 1: by candles, and especially if they're cheap ones, so they're
Speaker 1: not good clean burning because you know, when they burned crappily,
Speaker 1: they produce a little more than a nice clean burn would.
Speaker 1: And at least I got the impression that he was
Speaker 1: using you know, rather large candles, which means it would
Speaker 1: burn for a long time, that heavy gas would pour
Speaker 1: into the tub and eventually it would you know, force
Speaker 1: the air out because carbon monoxide is heavier than air.
Speaker 1: And if he's got his face in the tub, you
Speaker 1: know things, carbon monoxide poisoning does have an effect on
Speaker 1: your heart. It's one of the things that it does
Speaker 1: that kills you. Interesting, it's possible, Yeah, his face was
Speaker 1: barely in the tub, that was right, he was. His
Speaker 1: head was on the edge of the tub. The tub
Speaker 1: could have been full of invisible gas. You know what.
Speaker 1: Initially when I thought about this was like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I heard something about the tap was gonna going a
Speaker 1: little bit, and so I was like, oh, well, then
Speaker 1: there was water flowing, so it would have gone the drain.
Speaker 1: And then I realized, oh no, it's going to have
Speaker 1: a p trap on the drain, which means because p
Speaker 1: trap stops sewer gas from coming up, which means gas
Speaker 1: in the bathroom doesn't go down either. So that tub
Speaker 1: could have filled up with carbon monoxide, or he could
Speaker 1: have had a leak in the house and that's why
Speaker 1: he was freaking out, because carbon monoxide will do crazy things.
Speaker 1: Do you carbon monoxide leak? Like, what was the source
Speaker 1: of it? Well, it would have to been more of
Speaker 1: like some kind of masking. Give me some kind of
Speaker 1: gas leak rather than carbon monoxide leak. But it's one
Speaker 1: of those things like maybe he was eating too much salt. Maybe, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was a salt freak. I don't think he had
Speaker 1: a gas leak though, because I mean it's possible that
Speaker 1: he didn't have a sense of smell and he couldn't
Speaker 1: detect the gas leak. The police probably would have noticed,
Speaker 1: you would think that the lea but I still wonder
Speaker 1: about the carbon monoxide point. Yeah, I don't know if
Speaker 1: they checked him and he would think they would have
Speaker 1: checked for something like that, though I don't know. You
Speaker 1: would think they would. You would think they would have
Speaker 1: checked for a head, but we don't know. Good point. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with
Speaker 1: pre existing condition, just exacerbated. So he was frightened to death.
Speaker 1: But it was a pre existing condition. Okay, carbon monoxide.
Speaker 1: I'm going with which alright, which one? But I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know first exactly. Well, my story is also
Speaker 1: pretty maccabb it's I think more Micawber than any of them.
Speaker 1: More maca, more mica. And actually this one was suggested
Speaker 1: ad by some people. It was suggested by Candice and Matt.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. But we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the corpse bride of Mexico because I like brides, because
Speaker 1: I am a bride, not that kind of bride. Hopefully
Speaker 1: set yourself up. And by the way, just just to
Speaker 1: clarify here, this is not Mexico's corpse, right, it's of
Speaker 1: course right this in Mexico. Mexico did not marry a corpse. Okay,
Speaker 1: Mexico not. Yeah. It's also known as La Pascualita. It's
Speaker 1: a thank you. I wouldn't been able to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: See I can pronounce things. I know what things are.
Speaker 1: This is the creepy mannequin in the window of the
Speaker 1: bridal store in Mexico. You know the one is a
Speaker 1: famous story. The legend of this is really simple. The
Speaker 1: bulk of the story comes from the theories, unfortunately, but
Speaker 1: that's okay, we'll get through it. In nineteen thirty, the
Speaker 1: mannequin was installed in the same window where she still
Speaker 1: resides to this day. What town it's in. It's in
Speaker 1: the region of Chihuahua. I don't know if it's in
Speaker 1: the city of Chihuahua. It might be in the city
Speaker 1: of Chihua. But this mannequin wears a beautiful, long white
Speaker 1: wedding dress. I think it's actually the same one that
Speaker 1: she's worn this entire time. I don't think they've ever changed.
Speaker 1: I know they've changed the dress. They Yeah, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that. I remember in the reading people who were
Speaker 1: complaining whenever they had to go do stuff with the mannequin,
Speaker 1: they hated it. So I'm pretty sure they changed her dress.
Speaker 1: They hated it just because they were creeped out. But yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: you mean like a store shop an employee. P Yeah,
Speaker 1: like an employee in the store. I did not read that.
Speaker 1: I swear I read that, But I think you're making
Speaker 1: that up. I could anyway. It's very It's always a long,
Speaker 1: flowy dress. Uh. The store was owned by Pascuala a Sparza,
Speaker 1: who had a daughter who was to be married just
Speaker 1: a few days prior to the installation of this man
Speaker 1: in in the window. And the daughter, it said, passed
Speaker 1: away from being bitten by a black widow spider, like
Speaker 1: on the day or of the wedding, or like the
Speaker 1: day before the day of the wedding. It's super sad,
Speaker 1: it's tragic. So people speculated because the mannequin actually looked
Speaker 1: a lot like this daughter, they thought, actually, somehow, I
Speaker 1: don't know how they think, but somehow that miss a
Speaker 1: Sparza just somehow preserved the body of her daughter in
Speaker 1: mannequin form and just like put her in her wedding
Speaker 1: dress in the window, and that she's there preserved there
Speaker 1: sounds like it sounds like a great like Alfred Hitchcock
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Yeah, kinda, Yeah, it's a lot like that.
Speaker 1: What's that story of the Mummy that's in the carnival
Speaker 1: ride that that turns out as a real body? You
Speaker 1: remember that one? You're talking about the real story or
Speaker 1: the movie story, the real story, not the movie story. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. Yeah, there's there's a
Speaker 1: ton of stories about like the haunted mansion in Disneyland,
Speaker 1: like has X number of real skulls in it. Not
Speaker 1: true obviously, but whatever. So yeah, most of the discussion,
Speaker 1: as I said, revolves around theories on this one. So
Speaker 1: we're going to hop right into theories. And the two
Speaker 1: theories are either it is a mannequin or it is
Speaker 1: a corpse. Right, Yeah, it's basically yeah, that's about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about the theory that it is a corpse. First,
Speaker 1: a corpse. It's the real corpse bride of the daughter
Speaker 1: of the owner of the shop, who died from a
Speaker 1: black widow bite the day of her wedding. We will
Speaker 1: also see there's there's multiple means of death. You'll see
Speaker 1: listed for this girl everywhere. Yeah. Sometimes you never got
Speaker 1: like crushed by by like a gravel crusher. No, so
Speaker 1: what are some of the other ones you saw? I
Speaker 1: think I saw this the most, that's why. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: this was the most prevalent. But I seem to remember
Speaker 1: something about like she was upset that she couldn't marry somebody,
Speaker 1: and so she threw herself off a cliff. I've seen
Speaker 1: that somewhere Okay, there's that doesn't lend itself to man
Speaker 1: a compensation as fair enough. Yeah, um so the mannequin.
Speaker 1: If you listen to these while you drive, I don't
Speaker 1: know what to tell you, man, I'm sorry, but if
Speaker 1: you're at your desk or you're near a computer, you
Speaker 1: should google it if you don't already know the mannequin
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. Her hands are really super creepy,
Speaker 1: Like they're the creepiest part. They're very realistic, super like
Speaker 1: hyper realistic. The rest of her, you know, the faces
Speaker 1: not necessarily lifelike, but more lifelike than a normal mannequin.
Speaker 1: The hair is a wig, but you would expect that
Speaker 1: from even a real preserved corpse. You know, if you
Speaker 1: were trying to do that, if you were trying to
Speaker 1: preserve it, you would make a wig out of the
Speaker 1: hair that that'd be a pretty quick turnaround process to
Speaker 1: make away, because wigs make take like forty hours to
Speaker 1: make good ones did it? But But also, you know
Speaker 1: the other thing about the contrast between the face and
Speaker 1: the hands is that your bride typically I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on in Mexico or not, but it might
Speaker 1: be wearing a lot of makeup on her face, but
Speaker 1: not in her hands. That's true. I explain why she's
Speaker 1: kind of monochromatic in the face, but her hands have
Speaker 1: the typical color variation that you see. You know, well,
Speaker 1: the hands, I mean the thing. Um, let me finish
Speaker 1: describing this and then we'll talk more a little bit
Speaker 1: more about that has. Her eyes are clearly fake, like
Speaker 1: obviously like any kind of taxi army and anything. Her
Speaker 1: eyelash around that is what they say. Um, the eyelashes
Speaker 1: are fake but look like real hair. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: just like fake eyeli And then, by the way, fake
Speaker 1: eyelashes are essentially for all intensive purposes real. And then
Speaker 1: the eyebrows are real hair like stuck into the anakin.
Speaker 1: They're not just like drawn on like we've seen in
Speaker 1: some preservation efforts. And so what I want to say
Speaker 1: about the face is that there's no wrinkles or any
Speaker 1: kind of fine lines or anything in the skin. It's
Speaker 1: it's very firm. It's very firm, yes, um, And that
Speaker 1: doesn't really occur in real people. Even with makeup. It
Speaker 1: settles into especially in the thirties, your makeup is going
Speaker 1: to settle into your grooves a little bit so it
Speaker 1: is less life like than the hands. But again, if
Speaker 1: you were to preserve a body, you would pull that
Speaker 1: skin probably about as tight as you could. It is
Speaker 1: said that she has very coast veins on her legs,
Speaker 1: but I can't find any pictures of that. Well, when
Speaker 1: has she ever been seeing what not wearing a full
Speaker 1: length wedding dress. Well, according to Steve, when shop employees
Speaker 1: have to change the corps, that's that's where that comes from,
Speaker 1: as people who say they've worked in the shop, and
Speaker 1: that's that's where the very coast veins then come from. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like you would have taken some pictures by now,
Speaker 1: but whatever. And also there is actually a case, well
Speaker 1: two cases actually of corpses being preserved on this level. Um.
Speaker 1: The first one we're going to talk about is um Lenin,
Speaker 1: you know John Lennon's you can his corpse, Sorry, I really,
Speaker 1: I mean Vladimir Lenin, the former leader of the Soviet Union,
Speaker 1: who died a mirror six years before La Pascualita reportedly
Speaker 1: did on January twenty one, eight per actually not dead,
Speaker 1: he's he's you know, they've been keeping him alive somewhere
Speaker 1: in a laboratory corps is still around, It's still looking pretty.
Speaker 1: It's on display in Lennon's mausoleum in the Red Square
Speaker 1: in Moscow since again, just a few days after he died.
Speaker 1: I think more than a few days, but they say
Speaker 1: like just before it was a couple of days. Yes,
Speaker 1: his preserved corpse has been there for literally a million years.
Speaker 1: The thing about Lennon's corpse, because people talk about Lennon's
Speaker 1: corpse like a lot for this, right, The thing about
Speaker 1: Len's corpse is that, um, well, there are some issues
Speaker 1: with preserving a corpse on this level. It's actually been
Speaker 1: a major undertaking. It has been a lot of money
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, one of the big problems that people
Speaker 1: that the Embalmer's faced was, you know, Lennon was older
Speaker 1: when he died, and so there were dark spots and
Speaker 1: things like that, and that continues to kind of get
Speaker 1: worse as he's preserved. Lots of it's mold. But well,
Speaker 1: there's a really big problem with Lennon. But they seem
Speaker 1: to be able to kind of correct that with a
Speaker 1: variety of different baths and yeah, basically so they kind
Speaker 1: of were I guess they kind of basically bleached his
Speaker 1: body or his skin a little bit. Didn't they replace
Speaker 1: a body partner? They've They have definitely replaced a number
Speaker 1: of Yeah, it's one of those things like George Washington's acts,
Speaker 1: you know, and that sound like that one. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean they, Yeah, they've replaced. There have been like damp
Speaker 1: spots on the skin. They I think they replaced an
Speaker 1: entire arm at one point, because I think, honestly, the
Speaker 1: only thing they haven't totally replaced is his face at
Speaker 1: this point. And I was doing some googling and I
Speaker 1: can't tell, but I think they actually, like very like
Speaker 1: this past year, may have replaced him with a mannequin
Speaker 1: like this past year because in Night Uh in two
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen, not nineteen something in two thousand and sixteen,
Speaker 1: it costs Russia thirteen million roubles of federal rubles, not
Speaker 1: dollars to maintain his body. There's like a team of
Speaker 1: expert human jerk. He is human jerky. I would not
Speaker 1: be surprised if there's nothing really left with his hands,
Speaker 1: in his face and the rest of it's all just
Speaker 1: a frameworker mannequin down there. I've seen a photo or
Speaker 1: two of his body um and his torso is just
Speaker 1: creepy looking because of course he's got no organs, so
Speaker 1: it's just his rib cage and it's just it's just
Speaker 1: skin and bolter, really looking. Yeah. Also, you may have
Speaker 1: missed it because the boys were interrupting me, but I
Speaker 1: did say thirteen million roubles to preserve Lennon in this
Speaker 1: creepy jerky state. Um, that's like, that's like over two
Speaker 1: million dollars American. That's a lot of money to preserve
Speaker 1: the body of like one person. And it's not really
Speaker 1: done particularly well, it looks because it's not necessarily easy
Speaker 1: to preserve a human body for that length of time.
Speaker 1: It really isn't. Uh yeah, but I want by the way, guys,
Speaker 1: if I don't want my body to be on public display,
Speaker 1: just cream made me. I don't care what the fans say. Well,
Speaker 1: I already bought the glass, the class coffin. Dude, you're
Speaker 1: we've already signed the paperwork that contract you thought you
Speaker 1: were signing for for advertisements. Yeah, now I had the
Speaker 1: coffee tin already. Sorry. Uh So, like I said, Lennon's body,
Speaker 1: he has a team of scientists literally dedicated to preserving
Speaker 1: his body. We also have a true, actual, true story
Speaker 1: that is really creepy that we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: right now of a more amateur attempt that might be
Speaker 1: more representative of what it would look like if just
Speaker 1: a random wedding dress shop owner we're trying to preserve
Speaker 1: the body of her deceased daughter. Ready, just as a warning,
Speaker 1: this did not go well. No, no, this is the story.
Speaker 1: This is the story of Carl Tandler and the love
Speaker 1: of his life. Long story short. After spending most of
Speaker 1: his life with a fake love of his life, he
Speaker 1: really finally met his one true love when he was
Speaker 1: treating her for tuberculosis. It's kind of sad that he
Speaker 1: met her when she was kind of on our way
Speaker 1: at the door. Well, it's weird because he says that
Speaker 1: when he was a child, one of his ancestors came
Speaker 1: to him and said, hey, this here, I am described
Speaker 1: having to you the woman of your dreams, and for
Speaker 1: and for his entire life, he carried this image with
Speaker 1: him and he even he married a different woman. He
Speaker 1: fathered children with this other woman woman, and they seemed
Speaker 1: to live a pretty happy life even though she wasn't
Speaker 1: the described one. And then one day at work, when
Speaker 1: he was like he was a radiologist. I believe he
Speaker 1: went a hospital, he worked in a hospital. He went to,
Speaker 1: you know, treat a patient who was suffering from tuberculosis,
Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, you're the woman my ancestor
Speaker 1: described to me when I was for in a vision.
Speaker 1: That's great, and became obsessed with her. He did everything
Speaker 1: he could to cure her to tuberculosis. But in those
Speaker 1: days he probably didn't because he was using radiation to try. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean, in those days, that's what they thought
Speaker 1: was maybe going to work. It was way before there
Speaker 1: was any kind of science point. This was right around
Speaker 1: the time people were taking radium pills, which we've talked
Speaker 1: about before people were actually doctors were prescribing cigarettes for tubercules. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: it was like it was that crazy time where nobody
Speaker 1: really knew what to do about tuberculosis, but everybody was
Speaker 1: kind of trying whatever. So Carl made it worse or something.
Speaker 1: But he financed a lot of her recovery, and then
Speaker 1: when she finally succumbed to tuberculosis, he actually paid for
Speaker 1: her entire funeral. He paid for the above ground giant
Speaker 1: mausoleum that her body was interred in. And then nobody
Speaker 1: really knows how long it took for him to lose
Speaker 1: whatever tiny marbles he had left, but he did lose
Speaker 1: them pretty pretty drastically by claiming that his love was
Speaker 1: calling to him from her grave, begging to be released
Speaker 1: from her stony prison. Well didn't he? Uh? Put a
Speaker 1: I thought that he paid to have a telephone installed
Speaker 1: in mausoleum. It sounds like something he would have done. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't believe he did. Yeah, and he was just
Speaker 1: having these halluciness hallucinations and just kept thinking she was
Speaker 1: calling to him and saying, release me, release me. If
Speaker 1: he had gone around the bend at this lost some marbles, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I guess he just decided, like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: she's the love of my life, so okay, y'all'll let
Speaker 1: her all her free. So he took like a red
Speaker 1: right writer wagon, like a little red kids wagon with
Speaker 1: him to the to the mausoleum, and um took her
Speaker 1: body from the casket and put it, put it in
Speaker 1: the wagon and took her back home where he um
Speaker 1: used wire hangers to put her skeleton back together, put
Speaker 1: glass eyes where her normal eyes would be, not where
Speaker 1: her normal eyes would be. Yep, Going with it replaced
Speaker 1: her rotting flesh with wax coated fabric and some plaster
Speaker 1: a little yeah. Uh. Then he stuffed her body with
Speaker 1: rags and made a wig from her hair, and, judging
Speaker 1: from the pictures, put some makeup on her and like
Speaker 1: very crudely painted some eyebrows on her. It's super creud
Speaker 1: It looks like a paper mache mask. Her face looks
Speaker 1: like a paper mache mask. No, it's super creepy. So
Speaker 1: once he was done creating his monster monster love I
Speaker 1: don't really know, he ddressed her in some of the
Speaker 1: clothes that had been left in his house because he
Speaker 1: again was a crazy person, was keeping all of her clothes,
Speaker 1: and put her in his bed forever unclean, where he
Speaker 1: may or may not have had sex with her. He
Speaker 1: did sleep with her body every night for seven years,
Speaker 1: and he uh, he was using a lot of perfume
Speaker 1: and a lot of disinfectant sprays to kind of mask
Speaker 1: the scent. But it took seven years for somebody to
Speaker 1: realize what was going on. He eventually got busted, he did,
Speaker 1: but it turns out the statue of limitations had expired
Speaker 1: on grave robbing after seven years, so he wasn't really
Speaker 1: prosecuted for anything some of those things. I still feel
Speaker 1: you should have just been locked up on general principles,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the reason we tell you that story is to
Speaker 1: tell you that's what creepy, creepy We wanted to shoehorn
Speaker 1: it in here. But also, you know, Lennin looks like crap,
Speaker 1: like jerky, and he's in a temperature controlled case, cared
Speaker 1: for by like a team of scientists that are constantly
Speaker 1: rehabbing him. This is a story of really creepy amateur
Speaker 1: attempt to get a corpse to be preserved on the
Speaker 1: level that we're talking about with Lopaskualita. And by the way,
Speaker 1: this attempt has failed horribly. So we have Soviet level
Speaker 1: jerky and we have speckled jerky. Yeah, basically we have
Speaker 1: the spum. We're just going deep into disproving the crap up.
Speaker 1: Have you seen the pictures of this particular calls corp spread. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty pretty super creepy. Yeah, and not anywhere natural normal. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I if you don't have to take my word
Speaker 1: for it, like reading Rainbow, don't take my word for it.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the things that I've seen
Speaker 1: from actual funeral funeral directors and morticians around the internet.
Speaker 1: As we talked about, even if a body is involved,
Speaker 1: like Lennon's is, it's a team of experts to kind
Speaker 1: of even halfway maintain the semblance of len is not
Speaker 1: in a storefront window in the sun every day in Mexico.
Speaker 1: I think he's in a He's in a sealed glass
Speaker 1: coffin which they can control the temperature. And isn't it
Speaker 1: flooded with like nitrogen or something. Yes, No, there's intense
Speaker 1: in there. Yeah. No. On top of that, the climate,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, like you know, it's it's Mexico, so
Speaker 1: it's going to be like extra hot. Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: oxygen is going to be crazy. And if I didn't
Speaker 1: mention this just to drive at home, we're talking like
Speaker 1: seventy five years in the window, not like it was
Speaker 1: a couple of years. Seventy five years of no visible
Speaker 1: deterioration whatsoever. Seems crazy to me, but hey, it's just
Speaker 1: that's just me. The hands is the thing that we
Speaker 1: do talk about a lot because they are super super creepy.
Speaker 1: So we're in the just just clarify, I realized I
Speaker 1: don't know that. I'm sorry I did not specify. You're right.
Speaker 1: As soon as we started talking about creepy Carl dude,
Speaker 1: we started talking about it was it was a fake, okay,
Speaker 1: it was fake versus being a real okay, just making sure.
Speaker 1: I suddenly looked I was like, wait a minute, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. I think I must have deleted that out
Speaker 1: of Sorry. Sorry everyone. Yeah, so just it's just to
Speaker 1: be clear that were so we started out with it
Speaker 1: it is a real corpse, and now now we're back
Speaker 1: to and castrating that it couldn't be. Couldn't be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the hands, um are creepy, but I believe they are
Speaker 1: just really well done morticians wax. I was gonna saying,
Speaker 1: it really looks like to me the hands because because
Speaker 1: when you look at the photos, you can see there's
Speaker 1: texture like you have on the top of your finger.
Speaker 1: But more importantly, when you bend your thumb, that that
Speaker 1: wrinkle between in the joint between your pointer finger and
Speaker 1: your thumb just naturally, and she has that where a
Speaker 1: cast mannequin would not. So it's got to be somebody
Speaker 1: took a impression, you know. I was going to say,
Speaker 1: I suspect. What happened is somebody took a cast of
Speaker 1: a hand in a position and then filled the wax
Speaker 1: in and then went through and kind of you know,
Speaker 1: painted or carved away certain details of it, because like
Speaker 1: Joe said, there is some variation in the color. Eve.
Speaker 1: It looks at my white guy hand here and there's
Speaker 1: many colors in it. Yeah, and that's what makes lapass
Speaker 1: Melita's hands. So but that can't be by a skilled artist.
Speaker 1: Absolutely it can be, yeah, absolutely can Yeah. The last
Speaker 1: thing that I will say for this theory is um
Speaker 1: Lenin's body is a much better representation of what it
Speaker 1: looks like when you heart embalm quote unquote a body,
Speaker 1: which is pretty much the only way that you could
Speaker 1: preserve it for this long, which is you flush all
Speaker 1: of the fluids out with like super super strong chemicals
Speaker 1: and that it basically just it flushes out your entire body.
Speaker 1: You have no moisture in your body anymore. And if
Speaker 1: you've ever you know, gone out drinking and then woken
Speaker 1: up the next morning and thought, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: look like death because I'm so dehydrated, because you know,
Speaker 1: my eyes are everything looks like extra wrinkly times that
Speaker 1: by a million, And that's what you get when you
Speaker 1: totally flush all the fluids out of body. He looked
Speaker 1: like you you you know the New Captain American movie
Speaker 1: that the first one of the new reboot. They came
Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago, and there's the Red Skull,
Speaker 1: the character the Red Skull. He looks like the Red
Speaker 1: Skull to me. The way his face is hard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but a face anyway, but it is you. There's no
Speaker 1: moisture in the face. So the only way to realistically
Speaker 1: preserve a body for that long is to totally drain
Speaker 1: all of the fluids out of the body. But if
Speaker 1: you're gut, if you drain all the fluids of the body,
Speaker 1: the body is not going to look particularly life like anymore. Right,
Speaker 1: So La Pascualita looks pretty relatively life like most Yeah,
Speaker 1: well she looks, yeah, she doesn't look looks like the
Speaker 1: skin is supple. Yes, probably the better we could say it.
Speaker 1: So I think moist is a little weird. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: realize that. Yeah. So I think overall, we just spent
Speaker 1: you know, twenty minutes debunking a story that I spent
Speaker 1: five minutes talking about. But I don't think she's a corpse.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I know. Joe has like an
Speaker 1: additional theory to this whole thing. Oh yeah, there's always
Speaker 1: the curse theory. It's true. We have been talking about
Speaker 1: curses a lot. Why not talking about it a little
Speaker 1: bit more, you know, let's talk. I'm talking about tales
Speaker 1: of them a cob and stuff like that. But supposing
Speaker 1: that our young bride was just thinking about it and
Speaker 1: imagining the life ahead of her, thinking I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: married and I'm gonna have kids, I'm gonna get fat,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get old, I'm gonna be unattractive, and and
Speaker 1: she just goes So she goes to the local shaw man.
Speaker 1: He was like, lives in the mud hut at the
Speaker 1: edge of town. You know, that's the one that's festering
Speaker 1: by skulls and femurs done in crusive fixes and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. And it goes out and says, pay some
Speaker 1: money and says, I I want to be young forever.
Speaker 1: I want to be just beautiful forever, you know, And
Speaker 1: so he turns her into a mannequin. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: that's that. Yeah, we've heard that. We've all seen that
Speaker 1: kind of story before. Twilight Zone and everything. She's just
Speaker 1: waiting for her true love to come kiss her. That
Speaker 1: ain't gonna be me, just on the off chance she
Speaker 1: actually is a corpse something touch out. Yeah, No, I
Speaker 1: mean overall, I think she's it's creepy. I think she's
Speaker 1: an exceptionally well made face, especially for like the nineteen thirties. Well,
Speaker 1: there's that was an era of some real artistry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so, I mean it's it's the age. I don't
Speaker 1: think the time is as important as just the fact
Speaker 1: that she was made. It's not when she was made.
Speaker 1: It's just somebody was really really talented. Yeah, kind and
Speaker 1: they're there. Definitely were talented people back in those days
Speaker 1: as much as today, probably more so. Yeah. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody was used to working with their hands at hell
Speaker 1: of a lot more in those kind of those kind
Speaker 1: of endeavors, and we didn't have distractions like the Internet.
Speaker 1: People needed something to do. Yeah, it's true. We will
Speaker 1: never have another one of these because there's Facebook. Yeah,
Speaker 1: dang it. Facebook. All right, Well that is all of
Speaker 1: our stories in this year's Halloween Extravaganza. Yeah. Um, well,
Speaker 1: you I know you waited to get the most creepy
Speaker 1: stuff from us until the very end of this episode,
Speaker 1: so let me give it to you. It's our email address,
Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. If
Speaker 1: you have questions or feedback anything like that, you can
Speaker 1: go ahead and send us an email. If you want
Speaker 1: to see a picture or links or anything like that
Speaker 1: from the stories that we've covered today, those will be
Speaker 1: on our website, along with links to our episode list
Speaker 1: and merchandise, all that good stuff that is all going
Speaker 1: to be at thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You are
Speaker 1: listening to this episode right now, so you've gotten it
Speaker 1: from somewhere, whether you downloaded it or streamed it. So
Speaker 1: if you're enjoying the show, take the time to subscribe.
Speaker 1: That's what helps other people find us, whether it be
Speaker 1: Apple or Google Play or Stitcher or whoever it is
Speaker 1: that you're using. Continue on enjoy and we'll keep putting
Speaker 1: them out there. And since we've complained about social media,
Speaker 1: but or we should probably talk about it, which is
Speaker 1: we are on social media. We have a Twitter account
Speaker 1: it's Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle because
Speaker 1: of that lovely character limit. We have a Facebook page
Speaker 1: and a Facebook group, so join the page or joined
Speaker 1: the group. And like the page. And of course we
Speaker 1: have a subreddit, so episode conversations happen in there, and
Speaker 1: that having all been said, go enjoy as much candy
Speaker 1: as you want because it doesn't matter. It's Halloween, yeah
Speaker 1: they enjoy yourselves. Don't get scared to death, don't become
Speaker 1: a mannequin.