Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2: As every Black History Month, we hear about the accomplishments
Speaker 2: of black.
Speaker 1: Folks from George Washington, Carver, Madam, C. J. Walker, Rosa Parks,
Speaker 1: made Jemison to Malcolm x, Astata Shakur, even Ben Carson.
Speaker 3: He may history too.
Speaker 2: The list goes on, But there's one person who gets
Speaker 2: shouted out the most. One person whose childhood home is
Speaker 2: an annual field trip for every child in the metro
Speaker 2: Atlanta area.
Speaker 1: One person who has his own federal holiday and statues
Speaker 1: across the United States.
Speaker 2: A Moorhouse man, a man of Alpha Phi Alpha. He
Speaker 2: had a dream, his eyes had seen the mountaintop. Of course,
Speaker 2: we're talking about Martin Luther King.
Speaker 3: Jumna.
Speaker 4: Our guest today on Meet the Press is doctor Martin
Speaker 4: Luther King, Jr.
Speaker 1: Who led the Civil Rights March from Selma to Montgomery, Alabamama.
Speaker 2: I'm Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode what would King Do?
Speaker 2: King looms large in the story of America. He was
Speaker 2: a gadfly to America's vulturous ways.
Speaker 1: He dreamed of a better world, and he spent the
Speaker 1: majority of his life working toward creating it until.
Speaker 4: Doctor Martin Luther King, the apostle of nonviolence in the
Speaker 4: civil rights movement, has been shot to death in Memphis, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: Since his death, Martin Luther King's radical message has been
Speaker 1: defaned and repackaged and repurposed in some really strange ways.
Speaker 2: President Ronald Reagan evoked a line from King's I Have
Speaker 2: a Dream speech while opposing affirmative action, and in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty six speech, Reagan said, quote, we want a colorblind society,
Speaker 2: a society that, in the words of doctor King, judges
Speaker 2: people not by the color of their skin, but by
Speaker 2: the content of their character.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, former Speaker of the House Kevin
Speaker 1: McCarthy tweeted, critical race theory goes against everything Martin Luther
Speaker 1: King Junior taught us.
Speaker 2: So he's conjuring up Martin Luther King Junior to prove
Speaker 2: that kids shouldn't learn about Martin Luther King Junior. Okay, Oh, and.
Speaker 3: He's not the only one.
Speaker 1: While introducing legislation that would allow parents to sue schools
Speaker 1: teaching critical race theory in the classroom, Florida Governor Ron
Speaker 1: Desantist said, quote, you think about what MLK stood for
Speaker 1: He said he didn't want people judged on the color
Speaker 1: of their skin, but on the content of their character.
Speaker 1: You've listened to some of these people nowadays. They don't
Speaker 1: talk about that.
Speaker 2: That's their favorite little quote. But white conservatives aren't the
Speaker 2: only culprits speaking of Ben Carson. Ease, come on up
Speaker 2: to the front, doctor cosson this.
Speaker 4: Whole identity politics stuff is poisonous. You know, if Martin
Speaker 4: Luther King, Doctor Martin Luther King were here today, he
Speaker 4: would be absolutely offended. You know, he wanted people to
Speaker 4: be judged by the character and not by the color
Speaker 4: of their skin.
Speaker 2: That was Ben Carson reacting to Vermont prioritizing black people
Speaker 2: during their COVID vaccine rollout.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just ignore that black people were more likely
Speaker 1: to be hospitalized and die from COVID and quote doctor
Speaker 1: King out of context.
Speaker 3: Good plan, girl.
Speaker 2: People will be bringing up doctor King for the most
Speaker 2: random stuff. I found a New York Daily News article
Speaker 2: from twenty eleven about a lady who was selling shirts
Speaker 2: that said pull your pants up. The article reads, the
Speaker 2: Jamaica Queen's Resident considers the all too popular low slunk
Speaker 2: pants style and a front to parents, teachers, anxiety and
Speaker 2: an insult to the legacy of slain civil rights leader
Speaker 2: doctor Martin Luther. And a direct quote from the woman
Speaker 2: selling these shirts says, if our children today could get
Speaker 2: to understand the dream of doctor King, they would not
Speaker 2: be doing what they are doing by wearing these pants.
Speaker 3: It's like an American tradition to ask what what King do?
Speaker 2: But the thing is, King did tell us who he was,
Speaker 2: what he was about, what he would do.
Speaker 4: I own to hope today lies in our ability to
Speaker 4: recapture the revolutionary spirit and go out into a sometimes
Speaker 4: hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism.
Speaker 2: He was a revolutionary. He stood with the poor and
Speaker 2: against militarism. And forgive me for stating the obvious, King
Speaker 2: was against racism.
Speaker 1: Hot take, But was that being said? It's also important
Speaker 1: to remember that King, like all of us, was flawed.
Speaker 1: He made mistakes, and he said things that really didn't
Speaker 1: age well.
Speaker 2: He was influenced by the patriarchal society in which he
Speaker 2: was reared, and he showed us as plain as day.
Speaker 2: In his nineteen fifties monthly Ebony magazine column, advice for living.
Speaker 2: His advice on topics like marital infidelity, colorism, and homosexuality
Speaker 2: is a time capsule of how ingrained sexism and misogyny
Speaker 2: were in everyday life and perpetuated by most of our
Speaker 2: respected leaders.
Speaker 1: We'll hear what Martin Luther King would have done from
Speaker 1: the man himself after the break.
Speaker 2: I first learned about Martin Luther King's advice column in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen when Michael Denzel Smith wrote about it in
Speaker 2: The Atlantic. I was fascinated. All the facts I learned
Speaker 2: about King throughout school and this never came up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this advice column was not included in the curriculum,
Speaker 1: so tell me more about it.
Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen fifty seven, King accepted an
Speaker 2: invitation to write the column from Larene Bennett, a fellow
Speaker 2: Morehouse graduate and associate editor of Ebony Magazine. In the
Speaker 2: September fifth, nineteen fifty seven issue of Ebony's sister publication Jet,
Speaker 2: an advertisement for King's forthcoming Advice for a Living column
Speaker 2: recommended that readers let demand that let the Montgomery Boycott
Speaker 2: lead you into happier living.
Speaker 1: Interesting ad copy What you mean, I'm not sure him
Speaker 1: leading the Montgomery bus Boycott qualifies him to lead people
Speaker 1: into happier living, but I will suspend my disbelief until
Speaker 1: I hear what he has to say.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, let me just read some of
Speaker 2: these questions. According to Stanford University's archive, Ebney magazine was
Speaker 2: flooded with advice seekers wanting to hear from the young activists.
Speaker 2: This question comes from a wife with a tyrannical husband.
Speaker 2: She writes, My.
Speaker 5: Husband is one of the pillars of the church. He
Speaker 5: attends all the services and contributes generously to all church activities,
Speaker 5: but when he comes home he changes completely complete tyrant
Speaker 5: At home he seems to hate me and the children too.
Speaker 5: What can I do? He was once a good man.
Speaker 3: Okay, what did king say?
Speaker 2: So he came in a little high.
Speaker 6: First, he said, I would suggest that you analyze the
Speaker 6: whole situation and see if there's anything within your personality
Speaker 6: that arouses this tyrannical response from your husband.
Speaker 3: Not putting the onus on her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not the greatest start, but I don't think the
Speaker 2: rest of the answer was that bad. So he continues, Second.
Speaker 6: You should sit down and patiently talk over the whole
Speaker 6: matter with your husband, showing him the unhappiness and disharmony
Speaker 6: that he's bringing within the whole family. Third, since your
Speaker 6: husband is a devout churchman, you may consider counseling with
Speaker 6: your minister on this problem, and he could probably say
Speaker 6: things to both of you that would restore the balance
Speaker 6: and stability of the home.
Speaker 1: So I feel like there was a lot that was
Speaker 1: unsaid in this question, and and it seems like the
Speaker 1: person who's asking this question is being very meek about
Speaker 1: it because hate is a very strong word and that
Speaker 1: doesn't go well with seams. You can't seem to hate somebody.
Speaker 1: So I'm really wondering what's actually happening in the household.
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that King just kind of
Speaker 1: like skipped over, and he jumped straight to the assumption
Speaker 1: that it's something that she did and that it's something
Speaker 1: that needs to be discussed in terms of like whose
Speaker 1: responsibility it was. So I think if he seems to
Speaker 1: hate her, I would imagine that she probably has talked
Speaker 1: to him about this before. I would guess like it
Speaker 1: might have come up at some point, or she might
Speaker 1: have tried to address it in different ways beforehand. So
Speaker 1: I feel like there needs to be some sort of
Speaker 1: third party involved already, like there needs to be some
Speaker 1: sort of mediator.
Speaker 2: Which he suggests the minister.
Speaker 1: Yes, but I also have an issue with that too because.
Speaker 2: Like Ali was in the church, so he's probably gonna
Speaker 2: be on the man side exactly.
Speaker 1: And also it's often known that you know, ministers do
Speaker 1: often try to act as psychologists or therapists to people
Speaker 1: when that's not their job. And of course they have
Speaker 1: certain biases in the advice that they're going to give.
Speaker 1: And yes, there's a personal connection.
Speaker 2: So I mean like a true third party, a neutral
Speaker 2: party exactly, a true third party. That's probably very rare
Speaker 2: in the fifties, especially black families, for them to go
Speaker 2: to therapists. Yeah, I feel like that's the only true
Speaker 2: neutral third party we can have because you can't bring
Speaker 2: your friend into your family because they also have that bias.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're not just going to get a random
Speaker 1: person off the street, So they can't go to the
Speaker 1: internet and just put a pole up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can't go on ready and people say, by
Speaker 2: the asshole. So yeah, I feel like that would be
Speaker 2: very rare. So I don't know if that would be
Speaker 2: like typical advice you would give in context of the
Speaker 2: time period and how black folks was moving during that time.
Speaker 1: I also think that it's tough without the context, which
Speaker 1: is why that's where I started, because I don't know
Speaker 1: how if he hates her and the children, he could
Speaker 1: be a dangerous person. So I don't know what coming
Speaker 1: to him and being like, hey, you've been doing this,
Speaker 1: it's really hurting us, Like how can you change yourself?
Speaker 1: How that'll come off with him, Like if he would
Speaker 1: respond violently, if he would erupt in any sort of
Speaker 1: way to her asking that question. Because if she's gotten
Speaker 1: to a point where she's asking an esteemed person who
Speaker 1: she doesn't know personally for advice, I would guess my
Speaker 1: assumptions would be one she might have already tried to
Speaker 1: talk to him about it, or two, she can't talk
Speaker 1: to him about it because he won't receive it well
Speaker 1: and won't be able to have a conversation with her
Speaker 1: in any sort of civil way. So it's hard for
Speaker 1: me to give advice if if it's not possible to
Speaker 1: see a therapist, or if it's difficult to find a
Speaker 1: neutral third party and it's difficult to talk to him,
Speaker 1: it is a pretty tough question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a hallmark of these advice columns, which we
Speaker 2: talked about in the Princess Mysterious episode A Shapeless plug.
Speaker 2: That part of the gag was you were just supposed
Speaker 2: to say, like get a divorce, breakup because it's like
Speaker 2: that's not fun, Like we're just to work it out.
Speaker 2: And when she says he seems to hate her, I
Speaker 2: took that as like, you know how men just be
Speaker 2: with women they don't like. Yeah, that's what I took
Speaker 2: it as, like he don't like me, but you know
Speaker 2: I cook and clean and pop out babies.
Speaker 1: Now see, I can't agree with you there because the
Speaker 1: children are brought into it, and when you seem like
Speaker 1: you hate children, that's a different type.
Speaker 3: So he hates the whole family.
Speaker 1: And I think what ri you're saying is like he
Speaker 1: just he resents being in the situation he's in.
Speaker 3: He don't really want to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we don't want to be family possible. He
Speaker 2: has like some animis and we don't know.
Speaker 3: Though, because she don't she didn't tell us exactly.
Speaker 2: What I'm psychoanalyzing him. Now, Okay, all right, they're nineteen fifties,
Speaker 2: they're black. Pepeople were assuming, which I'm sure they are
Speaker 2: reading up any magazine and writing into doctor King. I
Speaker 2: just read The Fire next time, and James Baldwin was
Speaker 2: talking about his dad and how he was so mean
Speaker 2: because he believed what white people said about him. So
Speaker 2: if you just have like white people are your neck
Speaker 2: all day during Jim Crow as a man, and then
Speaker 2: you come into the house and that's the place you
Speaker 2: have dominion over some people, some men are going to
Speaker 2: act a fool just because they can't act fool with Whitey.
Speaker 2: Down at the job, they call you boy. They drop
Speaker 2: the stuff on the floor so you can go pick
Speaker 2: it up, So you gotta come in ready to be
Speaker 2: a man. And to you, that's showing aggression because you
Speaker 2: have all this pinned up aggression from your life outside
Speaker 2: the home. So I think that's what she is referring to.
Speaker 2: She's like, I think he hates me the kids because
Speaker 2: that's who he has quote unquote control over, and so
Speaker 2: that's who he's like giving all his like mean feelings towards.
Speaker 2: That's one educated guess why he's acting the way he's acting.
Speaker 2: And I think it's telling because King is a minister
Speaker 2: at this point too, And the first thing he says
Speaker 2: is what you done did to this man?
Speaker 1: Okay, So either way it goes even if it is
Speaker 1: this hypothetical that you've built up, girl, you know, built
Speaker 1: up the theory, or if it is what King says,
Speaker 1: where it's something she did to him, he's still the problem.
Speaker 2: No, I'm saying him saying like, oh, like you need
Speaker 2: to look within yourself. It's kind of a clue of
Speaker 2: what his last point was with going to your minister
Speaker 2: and talking like the minister at their church is probably
Speaker 2: just going to flip it back on her too. So
Speaker 2: she's really in like a tough situation, like maybe he
Speaker 2: is the type of guy her husband just super not
Speaker 2: self aware and being like, hey, you're making our lives
Speaker 2: a living hell? Can you stop that? Like maybe he'll
Speaker 2: change his ways, but probably not.
Speaker 1: No, because it has to have been happening for quite
Speaker 1: some time if she's gotten to the point about it,
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, it's probably at a critical point right now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's been festering for a minute, like it's been
Speaker 1: sitting there building up. It's something that's been happening between
Speaker 1: the two of them. But the thing is, if she's
Speaker 1: writing in she wants to stay with him, but girl.
Speaker 1: I guess we need to address the fact that she
Speaker 1: said he wants a good.
Speaker 3: Man too, y.
Speaker 1: Onto that memory, and so there is some work that
Speaker 1: can be done. I guess advice that can be given
Speaker 1: to her too to like honestly evaluate who he is
Speaker 1: in the present and she actually wants to be with
Speaker 1: him in this moment, right, So maybe it is like okay,
Speaker 1: instead of there is a conversation that needs to be
Speaker 1: had with the question asker that's not like what did
Speaker 1: you do, but is instead like is this what you want?
Speaker 3: And who is he?
Speaker 2: Okay, Doctor King, come with it, Doctor Eve, Okay, more
Speaker 2: of King's advice. After the break, we're back with another
Speaker 2: question from Advice for Living, and Doctor King's answer might
Speaker 2: surprise you. This is from a woman asking about birth
Speaker 2: controls morality.
Speaker 5: She asks, we have seven children and another one is
Speaker 5: on the way. Our four room apartment is busting at
Speaker 5: the seams, and living space in Harlem is at a premium.
Speaker 5: I have suggested to my husband that we practice birth control,
Speaker 5: but he says that when God thinks we have enough children,
Speaker 5: he will put a stop to it. I've tried to
Speaker 5: reason with him, but he says that birth control is sinful?
Speaker 6: Is he right?
Speaker 1: Seven kids one on the way in a four bedroom apartment.
Speaker 1: Something's got to give. What did Kings say about her situation?
Speaker 2: He wrote, I don't.
Speaker 6: Think it's correct to argue that birth control is sinful.
Speaker 6: It's a serious mistake to suppose that it's a religious
Speaker 6: act to allow nature to have its way in the
Speaker 6: sex life. He also says, another thing that must be
Speaker 6: said is that changes in social and economic conditions make
Speaker 6: smaller families desirable, if not necessary. As you suggest, the
Speaker 6: limited quarters available in our large cities and high cost
Speaker 6: of living precludes such large families as were common a
Speaker 6: century ago. The final consideration is that women must be
Speaker 6: considered as more than breeding machines.
Speaker 1: Wow, that isn't something that I'd expect from a religious
Speaker 1: man from the South during the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 3: Look at Martin.
Speaker 2: But like some of these other answers, it contains multiple parts.
Speaker 2: He goes on to say, it is.
Speaker 6: True the primary obligation of the woman is that of motherhood,
Speaker 6: but an intelligent mother wants it to be a responsible motherhood,
Speaker 6: a motherhood to which she has given her consent, not
Speaker 6: a motherhood due to impulse and to chance. And this
Speaker 6: means birth control in some form. All of these factors
Speaker 6: seem to me to make birth control rationally and morally justifiable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I feel like this is one of those
Speaker 1: instances where he was talking a little bit too much,
Speaker 1: who gave a little bit too much in the answer,
Speaker 1: because it went a little off the rails once he
Speaker 1: started justifying his reasoning to say that birth control was
Speaker 1: like a moral and a rational decision. Saying that the
Speaker 1: primary obligation of the woman is motherhood is expected, but
Speaker 1: still wild when you're telling somebody that they have the
Speaker 1: right to be able to choose birth control.
Speaker 2: I said, she already got seven kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, she's probably pretty busy. Yeah, she's pretty busy
Speaker 1: doing the work of motherhood already currently. So it felt
Speaker 1: like it was a lot of judgment on King's part
Speaker 1: of the mother rather than him answering the question, because
Speaker 1: her question is really like a pretty simple one. She
Speaker 1: wasn't really asking for advice of what she should do next.
Speaker 1: It seemed like she really just said, is birth control sinful?
Speaker 1: And she was looking for guidance on that, And I
Speaker 1: think bringing what the obligation of women was into the
Speaker 1: question that he already answered, which is that no birth
Speaker 1: control is not simple was like a step a bridge
Speaker 1: too far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he wanted to put some extra on it. But
Speaker 2: I feel like that's the nature of advice columns, Like
Speaker 2: you can't just write a sentence like no birth control
Speaker 2: isn't sinful. People want to feel like you considered it,
Speaker 2: which I think maybe when she read this question she
Speaker 2: was satisfied with the answer. He was ultimately on her
Speaker 2: side of the equation. But it is anonymous, so you
Speaker 2: can't like go show your husband. But I don't know
Speaker 2: hers is real specific. We got seven kids, one on
Speaker 2: the way, four bedroom apartment in Harlem, he says.
Speaker 3: This honestly, that probably wasn't that rare.
Speaker 2: Though true today it's like one person in this situation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: who could afford a four bedroom apartment in Harlan.
Speaker 1: Ain't nobody considering being a brand machine in these days?
Speaker 1: Who's calling anybody that? Nobody questions that?
Speaker 2: So he did do a bit much with the primary
Speaker 2: obligation of the woman is that of motherhood. But like
Speaker 2: you said, that was probably just like power for the
Speaker 2: course and how people thought. But I do think he's
Speaker 2: like really ahead of his time, like even right now,
Speaker 2: because a lot of Christians are very anti birth control,
Speaker 2: not even anti abortion, like they are anti abortion, but
Speaker 2: they don't even want people on birth control, which is
Speaker 2: just so strange to me. But there's like a lot
Speaker 2: of people and we see that now happening with like
Speaker 2: the legislation that people are presenting, like they don't want
Speaker 2: the girls to have birth control. So I was surprised
Speaker 2: when he was like, no, it's not sinvil. It's like
Speaker 2: makes sense why you would come to this conclusion, like
Speaker 2: you shouldn't leave to things a chance. It should be
Speaker 2: like your consent. I was like, okay, Yeah, he could
Speaker 2: have said be fruitful and multiply exactly would a lot
Speaker 2: of people stop if.
Speaker 3: You still have the ability to have children there? Yeah,
Speaker 3: bear of the fruit. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I be hearing people like that today right now, yeah,
Speaker 2: ten minutes ago. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by
Speaker 2: the answer, even though you know it had its moments
Speaker 2: where he wanted to add a little raffle dazzle for
Speaker 2: the girls.
Speaker 3: So, speaking of the girls, did men ever write in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course everyone wanted advice from Martin Luther king Shaw.
Speaker 2: Here's one from a boy who doesn't want his parents
Speaker 2: to know he's gay.
Speaker 7: He writes, my problem is different from the ones most
Speaker 7: people have. I'm a boy, but I feel about boys
Speaker 7: the way I ought to feel about girls. I don't
Speaker 7: want my parents to know about me. What can I do?
Speaker 7: Is there any place where I can go for help?
Speaker 3: Poor baby? What did King say?
Speaker 2: He replied, your problem.
Speaker 6: Is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does
Speaker 6: require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have
Speaker 6: toward boys is probably not an inate tendency, but something
Speaker 6: that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this
Speaker 6: habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconscious repressed. Therefore,
Speaker 6: it's necessary to deal with this problem by getting back
Speaker 6: to some of the experiences and circumstances that lead to
Speaker 6: the habit.
Speaker 1: Okay, seemed like he was starting to veer a little
Speaker 1: too far into psychologist's territory.
Speaker 2: Well, he actually suggests the boy sees a psychiatrist. He
Speaker 2: goes on to say that basically a psychiatrist can help
Speaker 2: him bring this issue to the forefront of his conscious
Speaker 2: and see what actually led him to the habit. The
Speaker 2: habit being gay, I'm assuming and that since he's already
Speaker 2: recognizing the problem. He's already on the road to a solution,
Speaker 2: So that's a positive.
Speaker 1: H I feel like we started good by him saying
Speaker 1: your problem is not at all an uncommon one, because
Speaker 1: he was acknowledging that it's something that people struggle with.
Speaker 1: But like the answer that King gave was already off
Speaker 1: on a baffoot because he called it a problem in
Speaker 1: the first place. Overall, his answer was giving conversion therapy vibes.
Speaker 1: And I think that his answer to this child was
Speaker 1: who he is, who's already trying to figure out so much,
Speaker 1: like he's still developing, still understanding sexuality in so many ways,
Speaker 1: and probably doesn't have a lot of people around him
Speaker 1: that he can talk to. If he's writing into a
Speaker 1: column to ask for advice about it, which is also
Speaker 1: like an issue in itself, there's nobody actually in his
Speaker 1: space that can help support him as he has feelings
Speaker 1: that he doesn't know how to parse yet. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it could actually be even more harmful to this child
Speaker 1: who is like, well, it's a problem. One doctor King said,
Speaker 1: this thing that I have is a problem, But these
Speaker 1: are just normal feelings that I'm feeling. How are these
Speaker 1: feeling different than all of the other feelings that I have.
Speaker 1: What else is like wrong that I'm feeling that I
Speaker 1: don't quite understand? So that can be very confusing. I mean,
Speaker 1: we already know how damaging it is to children who
Speaker 1: are not affirmed when they feel certain ways don't have
Speaker 1: the support systems that they need. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: weird because King's advice was problematic, but there were phrases
Speaker 1: in there where I'm like, okay, like yes it does,
Speaker 1: like when he said it does require careful attention, Well, yes,
Speaker 1: it's something that you have to tend to, but not
Speaker 1: in the way in which King meant it.
Speaker 3: So this one just makes me deep.
Speaker 2: Sigh, deep sigh. What would you say to this boy?
Speaker 1: I would definitely start by affirming that it's not a problem,
Speaker 1: that it is something that other people go through, that
Speaker 1: it's not something that he needs to change. I think
Speaker 1: I would start in the advice in that direction, and
Speaker 1: then after that he asks for specific places. So it's
Speaker 1: hard for me to think about giving any sort of
Speaker 1: actually helpful advice without directing him to actual places that
Speaker 1: he could go.
Speaker 2: Oh where can I go for help?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think maybe because it's nineteen fifty, so even if
Speaker 2: there are places like that seem like they might be
Speaker 2: like a good resource. It could be just like conversion therapy.
Speaker 2: But like, I feel like the most basic advice would
Speaker 2: be like talk to a trusted adult, like a teacher
Speaker 2: or a cod which it was the nineteen fifties, away
Speaker 2: you know there are somebody gay, or absolutely are somebody
Speaker 2: that you know wouldn't care if you were gay.
Speaker 1: My issue with saying that, though, is that could easily
Speaker 1: lead back to his parents, because I feel like that
Speaker 1: was also more in the culture. And yeah, but I
Speaker 1: think that's difficult though, because he trusts that person. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the adult's idea of what the
Speaker 1: right thing to do is in going back to the parents.
Speaker 1: I think that sometimes adults think the best thing to
Speaker 1: do is to notify the parents, and they're like, you
Speaker 1: need to know this about your child, And the child
Speaker 1: already knows one thing because they're the ones who are
Speaker 1: interfacing with their parents, have that intimate relationship with their
Speaker 1: parents in the actual home space.
Speaker 3: So I trust.
Speaker 1: I also trust this child to have agency and intelligence
Speaker 1: to understand that their parent, you know, how their parents
Speaker 1: would respond most likely even though that may you know,
Speaker 1: that may not be true, they may respond with more
Speaker 1: care and kindness than the child may be expecting. But
Speaker 1: I do think that sometimes adults who think they have
Speaker 1: a child's best interest at heart say that, well Disney
Speaker 1: to go back to the parents, and they might not
Speaker 1: keep it confidential. And that's my only hesitance with that.
Speaker 1: It's just like not knowing exactly how a person that
Speaker 1: a child would consider a trusted adult would choose to
Speaker 1: enact that trust.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1: All that said, it still wouldn't hurt to like, for
Speaker 1: King to give that advice to the child within this column.
Speaker 1: You know, it's better than just not being able to
Speaker 1: do anything for the.
Speaker 3: Child at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think one of the interesting things about
Speaker 2: advice columns but just like kind of expousing your thoughts
Speaker 2: on what other people should do in their lives publicly,
Speaker 2: is it really about the person who's like writing in
Speaker 2: or the specific person that you're talking about. But for
Speaker 2: the people in your life where that situation applies to them,
Speaker 2: now they see you a lot clearer. So if he had,
Speaker 2: like a child who was having these feelings about liking
Speaker 2: boys when they should like girls, or liking girls when
Speaker 2: they should like boys, and they see this advice or like, oh,
Speaker 2: my dad sees this as a price, or Uncle Martin
Speaker 2: Jesus as a problem, or who whatever the case may be. Like, however,
Speaker 2: the child relates to Martin Luther King the same way
Speaker 2: if there was you know, he's a minister in Atlanta
Speaker 2: and there's a woman in his church that finds herself
Speaker 2: in like an abusive relationship, whether it's verbally or physically,
Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, well, I read Reverend King's advice
Speaker 2: column and ebony, and this is what he said should
Speaker 2: happen the same way, like people these days are talking
Speaker 2: about people who've like had abortions, but like you might
Speaker 2: not know who in your life has had an abortion.
Speaker 2: But like when you talk so bad about people who
Speaker 2: have had it abortions, like the people around you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're not safe, you know what I mean? So I
Speaker 2: think that might be like an unintended consequence of all
Speaker 2: the things that doctor King is saying and not saying
Speaker 2: that all of his responses were like problematic. There are
Speaker 2: something that were good, Like he's against a death penalty,
Speaker 2: he was against the war, and people ask him things
Speaker 2: about that as well. I kind of pulled out the
Speaker 2: most delicious one. But yeah, I think that's an unintended
Speaker 2: consequence for this advice column, all advice columns. And just
Speaker 2: like when you like spout out things about like a celebrity,
Speaker 2: you know, like celebrity having a baby out of way, like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, she's so stupid. But then your homegirl
Speaker 2: just found out she's pregnant and she wanted to come
Speaker 2: and tell you, but she sees you typing on Twitter
Speaker 2: that all women who have babies with niggas out of
Speaker 2: way like are dumb, and the it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: now I can't talk to you.
Speaker 1: And they're forming these opinions based on people's lives who
Speaker 1: they have no idea about. So I also feel like
Speaker 1: it's easy to have less trust in when people are
Speaker 1: saying those kinds of things on the internet versus what
Speaker 1: they say with you in private. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: an interesting conundrum because like, yeah, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: you could see these people saying all these negative things
Speaker 1: in forming opinions based on lives they don't know it
Speaker 1: in public spaces, but like, probably what they say to
Speaker 1: you in their face about a life they know a
Speaker 1: little bit better is more honest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably more empathetic, but I don't know. It's almost
Speaker 2: like did youso wear bandana is on they head and
Speaker 2: drive hoopties are dumb and be like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I'm never coming to you for advice.
Speaker 3: Do you think I've dubbed?
Speaker 2: King continue publishing the column until December nineteen fifty eight,
Speaker 2: when his doctor advised him to limit his commitments following
Speaker 2: his September nineteen fifty eight stabbing. I think it's a
Speaker 2: great piece of history. Like we said at the top,
Speaker 2: folks are always invoking King and twisting his words. Here
Speaker 2: we get to hear directly from King in a less
Speaker 2: formal way. And remember King was in his late twenties
Speaker 2: when he wrote this column. His opinions would have evolved,
Speaker 2: probably did evolve up until his death at thirty nine
Speaker 2: years old.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point though, to you know,
Speaker 1: think about all the ways that people are co opting
Speaker 1: doctor King's words and saying what he should have said.
Speaker 1: Everybody who says those kind of things are acting like
Speaker 1: they are the foremost experts on doctor King's ideology, on
Speaker 1: his biography, and we have to remember that they're not.
Speaker 1: Like people feel really empowered to say how they think
Speaker 1: doctor King would have felt, and what they think Doctor
Speaker 1: King would have done, not having done a ton of
Speaker 1: research on his history. So I think we have to
Speaker 1: take their words with a grain of salt and also
Speaker 1: remember that like at the end of the day, we
Speaker 1: can't say any of this, None of us can say
Speaker 1: any of this because doctor King is no longer with us,
Speaker 1: and we can learn from the words that he did
Speaker 1: leave behind and all of the other parts of his
Speaker 1: legacy that he left behind, like family and like all
Speaker 1: of the people who followed in his footsteps and learned
Speaker 1: from him. But he's not here to say the things
Speaker 1: that we are surmising that we're guessing that he would
Speaker 1: have said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean there are foremost experts on doctor King,
Speaker 2: and like they don't do that. And like as we
Speaker 2: saw people like that one little quote about the interpreting
Speaker 2: me in a colorblind, raceless society, or they love that
Speaker 2: quote about darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 3: Do you know that one? Yes, I do.
Speaker 2: It would have hated on a bridge here that I
Speaker 2: hate driving over that brane. So yeah, people have they
Speaker 2: little keen quotes that they liked to cherry pick, but
Speaker 2: if you really read his stuff, like, they won't be
Speaker 2: quoting what he says about like war in capitalism.
Speaker 1: It's not feel good. Yeah, if it's not feel good
Speaker 1: enough for them, it's not good enough to be a SoundBite. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a little pithy, little SoundBite, but hey. You can read
Speaker 1: more of King's Ebony magazine at Vice column at Vice
Speaker 1: for Living online through Stanford University's archive. Give it a
Speaker 1: gander and let us know what you think.
Speaker 2: Now it's time for roll credits. The segment where we
Speaker 2: give credit to a person, place, or a thing that
Speaker 2: we encountered during the week is who are what would
Speaker 2: you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 1: I like to give credit to head wraps. I'm currently wearing.
Speaker 2: A head rap rocking it. Don't say you're just wearing it,
Speaker 2: rocking it.
Speaker 1: I was leaving the house today and I've just you
Speaker 1: know how sometimes you just get tired of dan your
Speaker 1: hair being the way it is. I love my hair.
Speaker 1: Don't touch my hair. I am not I am not
Speaker 1: my hair, but I was it was just getting on
Speaker 1: my nerves earlier. So I was like, let me put
Speaker 1: it up something that's comfortable. And I was like, I
Speaker 1: haven't been wearing heat wraps lately, and they're an easy
Speaker 1: way to like still feel good about myself, still feel fashionable,
Speaker 1: but also like head wraps have a lot of symbology
Speaker 1: in so many different ways, and so I can still
Speaker 1: like hold all of that while I'm wearing this thing
Speaker 1: where it's like I want my hair to be out
Speaker 1: today as well.
Speaker 3: So that's why I want to give credit to head
Speaker 3: wraps today. Shout out to head wraps.
Speaker 2: Okay, I can never look cute in them, like you
Speaker 2: got yours tied up. I can't. I don't know how
Speaker 2: to do that, and I'd be looking at the videos
Speaker 2: and I'm like why I should do not look like that?
Speaker 2: But yeah, shout out to hair wraps. I would like
Speaker 2: to give credit to time travel and the time travel
Speaker 2: that happens when you read a book that was written,
Speaker 2: you know, decades and decades ago before you were born
Speaker 2: for your thought of and you read it and you're
Speaker 2: like yes, like I understand exactly what you're saying, like
Speaker 2: you are speaking to me right in this moment. I
Speaker 2: just finished reading The Fire Next Time, and there are
Speaker 2: so many lines where I was like, yup, that's going
Speaker 2: on right now today, Like I feel you and I
Speaker 2: think that's a particular thing with literature, where you get
Speaker 2: to travel from the comfort of your wherever you're reading
Speaker 2: and really know what was going on in the minds
Speaker 2: of people at a particular time. And I think about
Speaker 2: that when I write too, that hopefully someone will read
Speaker 2: my words in the future and be like, yup, she right,
Speaker 2: So shout out to time travel and we will see
Speaker 2: y'all next week.
Speaker 7: Bye bye.
Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell,
Speaker 1: acting for Martin Luther King Junior in today's episode done
Speaker 1: by Spencer Bynes. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow.
Speaker 3: You can also send us.
Speaker 1: An email at Helloa at on Theme dot show. Head
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