1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 2 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: As every Black History Month, we hear about the accomplishments 3 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: of black. 4 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Folks from George Washington, Carver, Madam, C. J. Walker, Rosa Parks, 5 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: made Jemison to Malcolm x, Astata Shakur, even Ben Carson. 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 3: He may history too. 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: The list goes on, But there's one person who gets 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: shouted out the most. One person whose childhood home is 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: an annual field trip for every child in the metro 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: Atlanta area. 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: One person who has his own federal holiday and statues 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: across the United States. 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: A Moorhouse man, a man of Alpha Phi Alpha. He 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: had a dream, his eyes had seen the mountaintop. Of course, 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: we're talking about Martin Luther King. 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: Jumna. 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 4: Our guest today on Meet the Press is doctor Martin 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 4: Luther King, Jr. 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: Who led the Civil Rights March from Selma to Montgomery, Alabamama. 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: I'm Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode what would King Do? 21 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: King looms large in the story of America. He was 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 2: a gadfly to America's vulturous ways. 23 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: He dreamed of a better world, and he spent the 24 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: majority of his life working toward creating it until. 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 4: Doctor Martin Luther King, the apostle of nonviolence in the 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 4: civil rights movement, has been shot to death in Memphis, Tennessee. 27 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: Since his death, Martin Luther King's radical message has been 28 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: defaned and repackaged and repurposed in some really strange ways. 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: President Ronald Reagan evoked a line from King's I Have 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: a Dream speech while opposing affirmative action, and in nineteen 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: eighty six speech, Reagan said, quote, we want a colorblind society, 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 2: a society that, in the words of doctor King, judges 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 2: people not by the color of their skin, but by 34 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: the content of their character. 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, former Speaker of the House Kevin 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: McCarthy tweeted, critical race theory goes against everything Martin Luther 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: King Junior taught us. 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 2: So he's conjuring up Martin Luther King Junior to prove 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: that kids shouldn't learn about Martin Luther King Junior. Okay, Oh, and. 40 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,119 Speaker 3: He's not the only one. 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: While introducing legislation that would allow parents to sue schools 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: teaching critical race theory in the classroom, Florida Governor Ron 43 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: Desantist said, quote, you think about what MLK stood for 44 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: He said he didn't want people judged on the color 45 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: of their skin, but on the content of their character. 46 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: You've listened to some of these people nowadays. They don't 47 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: talk about that. 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: That's their favorite little quote. But white conservatives aren't the 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: only culprits speaking of Ben Carson. Ease, come on up 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 2: to the front, doctor cosson this. 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 4: Whole identity politics stuff is poisonous. You know, if Martin 52 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 4: Luther King, Doctor Martin Luther King were here today, he 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 4: would be absolutely offended. You know, he wanted people to 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 4: be judged by the character and not by the color 55 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 4: of their skin. 56 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: That was Ben Carson reacting to Vermont prioritizing black people 57 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: during their COVID vaccine rollout. 58 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's just ignore that black people were more likely 59 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: to be hospitalized and die from COVID and quote doctor 60 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: King out of context. 61 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: Good plan, girl. 62 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: People will be bringing up doctor King for the most 63 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: random stuff. I found a New York Daily News article 64 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: from twenty eleven about a lady who was selling shirts 65 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: that said pull your pants up. The article reads, the 66 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: Jamaica Queen's Resident considers the all too popular low slunk 67 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: pants style and a front to parents, teachers, anxiety and 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: an insult to the legacy of slain civil rights leader 69 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: doctor Martin Luther. And a direct quote from the woman 70 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: selling these shirts says, if our children today could get 71 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: to understand the dream of doctor King, they would not 72 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: be doing what they are doing by wearing these pants. 73 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: It's like an American tradition to ask what what King do? 74 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: But the thing is, King did tell us who he was, 75 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: what he was about, what he would do. 76 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 4: I own to hope today lies in our ability to 77 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 4: recapture the revolutionary spirit and go out into a sometimes 78 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 4: hostile world declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, and militarism. 79 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: He was a revolutionary. He stood with the poor and 80 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: against militarism. And forgive me for stating the obvious, King 81 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: was against racism. 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: Hot take, But was that being said? It's also important 83 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: to remember that King, like all of us, was flawed. 84 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: He made mistakes, and he said things that really didn't 85 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: age well. 86 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: He was influenced by the patriarchal society in which he 87 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: was reared, and he showed us as plain as day. 88 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 2: In his nineteen fifties monthly Ebony magazine column, advice for living. 89 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: His advice on topics like marital infidelity, colorism, and homosexuality 90 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: is a time capsule of how ingrained sexism and misogyny 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: were in everyday life and perpetuated by most of our 92 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: respected leaders. 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: We'll hear what Martin Luther King would have done from 94 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: the man himself after the break. 95 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 2: I first learned about Martin Luther King's advice column in 96 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen when Michael Denzel Smith wrote about it in 97 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 2: The Atlantic. I was fascinated. All the facts I learned 98 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: about King throughout school and this never came up. 99 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this advice column was not included in the curriculum, 100 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: so tell me more about it. 101 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen fifty seven, King accepted an 102 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: invitation to write the column from Larene Bennett, a fellow 103 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 2: Morehouse graduate and associate editor of Ebony Magazine. In the 104 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: September fifth, nineteen fifty seven issue of Ebony's sister publication Jet, 105 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: an advertisement for King's forthcoming Advice for a Living column 106 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: recommended that readers let demand that let the Montgomery Boycott 107 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: lead you into happier living. 108 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: Interesting ad copy What you mean, I'm not sure him 109 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: leading the Montgomery bus Boycott qualifies him to lead people 110 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: into happier living, but I will suspend my disbelief until 111 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: I hear what he has to say. 112 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, let me just read some of 113 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: these questions. According to Stanford University's archive, Ebney magazine was 114 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 2: flooded with advice seekers wanting to hear from the young activists. 115 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: This question comes from a wife with a tyrannical husband. 116 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: She writes, My. 117 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 5: Husband is one of the pillars of the church. He 118 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 5: attends all the services and contributes generously to all church activities, 119 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 5: but when he comes home he changes completely complete tyrant 120 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 5: At home he seems to hate me and the children too. 121 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 5: What can I do? He was once a good man. 122 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: Okay, what did king say? 123 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: So he came in a little high. 124 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 6: First, he said, I would suggest that you analyze the 125 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 6: whole situation and see if there's anything within your personality 126 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 6: that arouses this tyrannical response from your husband. 127 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: Not putting the onus on her. 128 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, not the greatest start, but I don't think the 129 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: rest of the answer was that bad. So he continues, Second. 130 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 6: You should sit down and patiently talk over the whole 131 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 6: matter with your husband, showing him the unhappiness and disharmony 132 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 6: that he's bringing within the whole family. Third, since your 133 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 6: husband is a devout churchman, you may consider counseling with 134 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 6: your minister on this problem, and he could probably say 135 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 6: things to both of you that would restore the balance 136 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 6: and stability of the home. 137 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: So I feel like there was a lot that was 138 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: unsaid in this question, and and it seems like the 139 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: person who's asking this question is being very meek about 140 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: it because hate is a very strong word and that 141 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: doesn't go well with seams. You can't seem to hate somebody. 142 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: So I'm really wondering what's actually happening in the household. 143 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that King just kind of 144 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: like skipped over, and he jumped straight to the assumption 145 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: that it's something that she did and that it's something 146 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: that needs to be discussed in terms of like whose 147 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: responsibility it was. So I think if he seems to 148 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: hate her, I would imagine that she probably has talked 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: to him about this before. I would guess like it 150 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: might have come up at some point, or she might 151 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: have tried to address it in different ways beforehand. So 152 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: I feel like there needs to be some sort of 153 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: third party involved already, like there needs to be some 154 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: sort of mediator. 155 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: Which he suggests the minister. 156 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: Yes, but I also have an issue with that too because. 157 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: Like Ali was in the church, so he's probably gonna 158 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: be on the man side exactly. 159 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: And also it's often known that you know, ministers do 160 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: often try to act as psychologists or therapists to people 161 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: when that's not their job. And of course they have 162 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: certain biases in the advice that they're going to give. 163 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: And yes, there's a personal connection. 164 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: So I mean like a true third party, a neutral 165 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: party exactly, a true third party. That's probably very rare 166 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: in the fifties, especially black families, for them to go 167 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: to therapists. Yeah, I feel like that's the only true 168 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: neutral third party we can have because you can't bring 169 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: your friend into your family because they also have that bias. 170 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're not just going to get a random 171 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: person off the street, So they can't go to the 172 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: internet and just put a pole up. 173 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, they can't go on ready and people say, by 174 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: the asshole. So yeah, I feel like that would be 175 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: very rare. So I don't know if that would be 176 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: like typical advice you would give in context of the 177 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 2: time period and how black folks was moving during that time. 178 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: I also think that it's tough without the context, which 179 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: is why that's where I started, because I don't know 180 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: how if he hates her and the children, he could 181 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: be a dangerous person. So I don't know what coming 182 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: to him and being like, hey, you've been doing this, 183 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: it's really hurting us, Like how can you change yourself? 184 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: How that'll come off with him, Like if he would 185 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: respond violently, if he would erupt in any sort of 186 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: way to her asking that question. Because if she's gotten 187 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: to a point where she's asking an esteemed person who 188 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: she doesn't know personally for advice, I would guess my 189 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: assumptions would be one she might have already tried to 190 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: talk to him about it, or two, she can't talk 191 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: to him about it because he won't receive it well 192 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: and won't be able to have a conversation with her 193 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: in any sort of civil way. So it's hard for 194 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: me to give advice if if it's not possible to 195 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: see a therapist, or if it's difficult to find a 196 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: neutral third party and it's difficult to talk to him, 197 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: it is a pretty tough question. 198 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, and a hallmark of these advice columns, which we 199 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: talked about in the Princess Mysterious episode A Shapeless plug. 200 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: That part of the gag was you were just supposed 201 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: to say, like get a divorce, breakup because it's like 202 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: that's not fun, Like we're just to work it out. 203 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: And when she says he seems to hate her, I 204 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: took that as like, you know how men just be 205 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: with women they don't like. Yeah, that's what I took 206 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: it as, like he don't like me, but you know 207 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: I cook and clean and pop out babies. 208 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: Now see, I can't agree with you there because the 209 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: children are brought into it, and when you seem like 210 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: you hate children, that's a different type. 211 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: So he hates the whole family. 212 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: And I think what ri you're saying is like he 213 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: just he resents being in the situation he's in. 214 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: He don't really want to be. 215 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, but we don't want to be family possible. He 216 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: has like some animis and we don't know. 217 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 3: Though, because she don't she didn't tell us exactly. 218 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: What I'm psychoanalyzing him. Now, Okay, all right, they're nineteen fifties, 219 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: they're black. Pepeople were assuming, which I'm sure they are 220 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: reading up any magazine and writing into doctor King. I 221 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,719 Speaker 2: just read The Fire next time, and James Baldwin was 222 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: talking about his dad and how he was so mean 223 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: because he believed what white people said about him. So 224 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: if you just have like white people are your neck 225 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: all day during Jim Crow as a man, and then 226 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: you come into the house and that's the place you 227 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: have dominion over some people, some men are going to 228 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: act a fool just because they can't act fool with Whitey. 229 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 2: Down at the job, they call you boy. They drop 230 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 2: the stuff on the floor so you can go pick 231 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: it up, So you gotta come in ready to be 232 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: a man. And to you, that's showing aggression because you 233 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: have all this pinned up aggression from your life outside 234 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: the home. So I think that's what she is referring to. 235 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: She's like, I think he hates me the kids because 236 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: that's who he has quote unquote control over, and so 237 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 2: that's who he's like giving all his like mean feelings towards. 238 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 2: That's one educated guess why he's acting the way he's acting. 239 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 2: And I think it's telling because King is a minister 240 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 2: at this point too, And the first thing he says 241 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: is what you done did to this man? 242 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: Okay, So either way it goes even if it is 243 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: this hypothetical that you've built up, girl, you know, built 244 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: up the theory, or if it is what King says, 245 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: where it's something she did to him, he's still the problem. 246 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: No, I'm saying him saying like, oh, like you need 247 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: to look within yourself. It's kind of a clue of 248 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: what his last point was with going to your minister 249 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: and talking like the minister at their church is probably 250 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: just going to flip it back on her too. So 251 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: she's really in like a tough situation, like maybe he 252 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: is the type of guy her husband just super not 253 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: self aware and being like, hey, you're making our lives 254 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: a living hell? Can you stop that? Like maybe he'll 255 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 2: change his ways, but probably not. 256 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: No, because it has to have been happening for quite 257 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: some time if she's gotten to the point about it, 258 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, it's probably at a critical point right now. Yeah, 259 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: And it's been festering for a minute, like it's been 260 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: sitting there building up. It's something that's been happening between 261 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: the two of them. But the thing is, if she's 262 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: writing in she wants to stay with him, but girl. 263 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: I guess we need to address the fact that she 264 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: said he wants a good. 265 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 3: Man too, y. 266 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: Onto that memory, and so there is some work that 267 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: can be done. I guess advice that can be given 268 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: to her too to like honestly evaluate who he is 269 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: in the present and she actually wants to be with 270 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: him in this moment, right, So maybe it is like okay, 271 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: instead of there is a conversation that needs to be 272 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: had with the question asker that's not like what did 273 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: you do, but is instead like is this what you want? 274 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: And who is he? 275 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: Okay, Doctor King, come with it, Doctor Eve, Okay, more 276 00:14:49,200 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: of King's advice. After the break, we're back with another 277 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: question from Advice for Living, and Doctor King's answer might 278 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: surprise you. This is from a woman asking about birth 279 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: controls morality. 280 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 5: She asks, we have seven children and another one is 281 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 5: on the way. Our four room apartment is busting at 282 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 5: the seams, and living space in Harlem is at a premium. 283 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 5: I have suggested to my husband that we practice birth control, 284 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 5: but he says that when God thinks we have enough children, 285 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 5: he will put a stop to it. I've tried to 286 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 5: reason with him, but he says that birth control is sinful? 287 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 6: Is he right? 288 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: Seven kids one on the way in a four bedroom apartment. 289 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: Something's got to give. What did Kings say about her situation? 290 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: He wrote, I don't. 291 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 6: Think it's correct to argue that birth control is sinful. 292 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 6: It's a serious mistake to suppose that it's a religious 293 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 6: act to allow nature to have its way in the 294 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 6: sex life. He also says, another thing that must be 295 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 6: said is that changes in social and economic conditions make 296 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 6: smaller families desirable, if not necessary. As you suggest, the 297 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 6: limited quarters available in our large cities and high cost 298 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 6: of living precludes such large families as were common a 299 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 6: century ago. The final consideration is that women must be 300 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 6: considered as more than breeding machines. 301 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: Wow, that isn't something that I'd expect from a religious 302 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: man from the South during the nineteen fifties. 303 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: Look at Martin. 304 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: But like some of these other answers, it contains multiple parts. 305 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: He goes on to say, it is. 306 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 6: True the primary obligation of the woman is that of motherhood, 307 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 6: but an intelligent mother wants it to be a responsible motherhood, 308 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 6: a motherhood to which she has given her consent, not 309 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 6: a motherhood due to impulse and to chance. And this 310 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 6: means birth control in some form. All of these factors 311 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 6: seem to me to make birth control rationally and morally justifiable. 312 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I feel like this is one of those 313 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: instances where he was talking a little bit too much, 314 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: who gave a little bit too much in the answer, 315 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: because it went a little off the rails once he 316 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: started justifying his reasoning to say that birth control was 317 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: like a moral and a rational decision. Saying that the 318 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: primary obligation of the woman is motherhood is expected, but 319 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: still wild when you're telling somebody that they have the 320 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: right to be able to choose birth control. 321 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: I said, she already got seven kids. 322 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: Yeah right, she's probably pretty busy. Yeah, she's pretty busy 323 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: doing the work of motherhood already currently. So it felt 324 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: like it was a lot of judgment on King's part 325 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: of the mother rather than him answering the question, because 326 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: her question is really like a pretty simple one. She 327 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: wasn't really asking for advice of what she should do next. 328 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: It seemed like she really just said, is birth control sinful? 329 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: And she was looking for guidance on that, And I 330 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: think bringing what the obligation of women was into the 331 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: question that he already answered, which is that no birth 332 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: control is not simple was like a step a bridge 333 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: too far. 334 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he wanted to put some extra on it. But 335 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: I feel like that's the nature of advice columns, Like 336 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 2: you can't just write a sentence like no birth control 337 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: isn't sinful. People want to feel like you considered it, 338 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: which I think maybe when she read this question she 339 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 2: was satisfied with the answer. He was ultimately on her 340 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 2: side of the equation. But it is anonymous, so you 341 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: can't like go show your husband. But I don't know 342 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 2: hers is real specific. We got seven kids, one on 343 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: the way, four bedroom apartment in Harlem, he says. 344 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 3: This honestly, that probably wasn't that rare. 345 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: Though true today it's like one person in this situation. Yeah, 346 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: who could afford a four bedroom apartment in Harlan. 347 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: Ain't nobody considering being a brand machine in these days? 348 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: Who's calling anybody that? Nobody questions that? 349 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: So he did do a bit much with the primary 350 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: obligation of the woman is that of motherhood. But like 351 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: you said, that was probably just like power for the 352 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: course and how people thought. But I do think he's 353 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: like really ahead of his time, like even right now, 354 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: because a lot of Christians are very anti birth control, 355 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: not even anti abortion, like they are anti abortion, but 356 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 2: they don't even want people on birth control, which is 357 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 2: just so strange to me. But there's like a lot 358 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: of people and we see that now happening with like 359 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 2: the legislation that people are presenting, like they don't want 360 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 2: the girls to have birth control. So I was surprised 361 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 2: when he was like, no, it's not sinvil. It's like 362 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: makes sense why you would come to this conclusion, like 363 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: you shouldn't leave to things a chance. It should be 364 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 2: like your consent. I was like, okay, Yeah, he could 365 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: have said be fruitful and multiply exactly would a lot 366 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 2: of people stop if. 367 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 3: You still have the ability to have children there? Yeah, 368 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 3: bear of the fruit. Yeah. 369 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: So I be hearing people like that today right now, yeah, 370 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: ten minutes ago. So yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by 371 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: the answer, even though you know it had its moments 372 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: where he wanted to add a little raffle dazzle for 373 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: the girls. 374 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 3: So, speaking of the girls, did men ever write in. 375 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course everyone wanted advice from Martin Luther king Shaw. 376 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: Here's one from a boy who doesn't want his parents 377 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 2: to know he's gay. 378 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 7: He writes, my problem is different from the ones most 379 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 7: people have. I'm a boy, but I feel about boys 380 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 7: the way I ought to feel about girls. I don't 381 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 7: want my parents to know about me. What can I do? 382 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 7: Is there any place where I can go for help? 383 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: Poor baby? What did King say? 384 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: He replied, your problem. 385 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 6: Is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does 386 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 6: require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have 387 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 6: toward boys is probably not an inate tendency, but something 388 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 6: that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this 389 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 6: habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconscious repressed. Therefore, 390 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 6: it's necessary to deal with this problem by getting back 391 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 6: to some of the experiences and circumstances that lead to 392 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 6: the habit. 393 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: Okay, seemed like he was starting to veer a little 394 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: too far into psychologist's territory. 395 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: Well, he actually suggests the boy sees a psychiatrist. He 396 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: goes on to say that basically a psychiatrist can help 397 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: him bring this issue to the forefront of his conscious 398 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: and see what actually led him to the habit. The 399 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: habit being gay, I'm assuming and that since he's already 400 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: recognizing the problem. He's already on the road to a solution, 401 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: So that's a positive. 402 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: H I feel like we started good by him saying 403 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: your problem is not at all an uncommon one, because 404 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: he was acknowledging that it's something that people struggle with. 405 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: But like the answer that King gave was already off 406 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: on a baffoot because he called it a problem in 407 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: the first place. Overall, his answer was giving conversion therapy vibes. 408 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: And I think that his answer to this child was 409 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: who he is, who's already trying to figure out so much, 410 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: like he's still developing, still understanding sexuality in so many ways, 411 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: and probably doesn't have a lot of people around him 412 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: that he can talk to. If he's writing into a 413 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: column to ask for advice about it, which is also 414 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: like an issue in itself, there's nobody actually in his 415 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: space that can help support him as he has feelings 416 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: that he doesn't know how to parse yet. But yeah, 417 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: it could actually be even more harmful to this child 418 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: who is like, well, it's a problem. One doctor King said, 419 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: this thing that I have is a problem, But these 420 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: are just normal feelings that I'm feeling. How are these 421 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: feeling different than all of the other feelings that I have. 422 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: What else is like wrong that I'm feeling that I 423 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: don't quite understand? So that can be very confusing. I mean, 424 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: we already know how damaging it is to children who 425 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: are not affirmed when they feel certain ways don't have 426 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: the support systems that they need. So it's kind of 427 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: weird because King's advice was problematic, but there were phrases 428 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: in there where I'm like, okay, like yes it does, 429 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 1: like when he said it does require careful attention, Well, yes, 430 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: it's something that you have to tend to, but not 431 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: in the way in which King meant it. 432 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 3: So this one just makes me deep. 433 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: Sigh, deep sigh. What would you say to this boy? 434 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: I would definitely start by affirming that it's not a problem, 435 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: that it is something that other people go through, that 436 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: it's not something that he needs to change. I think 437 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: I would start in the advice in that direction, and 438 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: then after that he asks for specific places. So it's 439 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: hard for me to think about giving any sort of 440 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: actually helpful advice without directing him to actual places that 441 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: he could go. 442 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: Oh where can I go for help? 443 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 7: Yeah? 444 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: I think maybe because it's nineteen fifty, so even if 445 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: there are places like that seem like they might be 446 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: like a good resource. It could be just like conversion therapy. 447 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: But like, I feel like the most basic advice would 448 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: be like talk to a trusted adult, like a teacher 449 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: or a cod which it was the nineteen fifties, away 450 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: you know there are somebody gay, or absolutely are somebody 451 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: that you know wouldn't care if you were gay. 452 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: My issue with saying that, though, is that could easily 453 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: lead back to his parents, because I feel like that 454 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: was also more in the culture. And yeah, but I 455 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: think that's difficult though, because he trusts that person. But 456 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the adult's idea of what the 457 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: right thing to do is in going back to the parents. 458 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: I think that sometimes adults think the best thing to 459 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: do is to notify the parents, and they're like, you 460 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: need to know this about your child, And the child 461 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: already knows one thing because they're the ones who are 462 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: interfacing with their parents, have that intimate relationship with their 463 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: parents in the actual home space. 464 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 3: So I trust. 465 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: I also trust this child to have agency and intelligence 466 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: to understand that their parent, you know, how their parents 467 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: would respond most likely even though that may you know, 468 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: that may not be true, they may respond with more 469 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: care and kindness than the child may be expecting. But 470 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: I do think that sometimes adults who think they have 471 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: a child's best interest at heart say that, well Disney 472 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: to go back to the parents, and they might not 473 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: keep it confidential. And that's my only hesitance with that. 474 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 1: It's just like not knowing exactly how a person that 475 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: a child would consider a trusted adult would choose to 476 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: enact that trust. 477 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair. 478 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: All that said, it still wouldn't hurt to like, for 479 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: King to give that advice to the child within this column. 480 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: You know, it's better than just not being able to 481 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: do anything for the. 482 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 3: Child at all. 483 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think one of the interesting things about 484 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: advice columns but just like kind of expousing your thoughts 485 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: on what other people should do in their lives publicly, 486 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: is it really about the person who's like writing in 487 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: or the specific person that you're talking about. But for 488 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 2: the people in your life where that situation applies to them, 489 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: now they see you a lot clearer. So if he had, 490 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: like a child who was having these feelings about liking 491 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: boys when they should like girls, or liking girls when 492 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: they should like boys, and they see this advice or like, oh, 493 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: my dad sees this as a price, or Uncle Martin 494 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: Jesus as a problem, or who whatever the case may be. Like, however, 495 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: the child relates to Martin Luther King the same way 496 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 2: if there was you know, he's a minister in Atlanta 497 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: and there's a woman in his church that finds herself 498 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: in like an abusive relationship, whether it's verbally or physically, 499 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 2: and she's like, oh, well, I read Reverend King's advice 500 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 2: column and ebony, and this is what he said should 501 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: happen the same way, like people these days are talking 502 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: about people who've like had abortions, but like you might 503 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: not know who in your life has had an abortion. 504 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: But like when you talk so bad about people who 505 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: have had it abortions, like the people around you're like, oh, 506 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: you're not safe, you know what I mean? So I 507 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: think that might be like an unintended consequence of all 508 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 2: the things that doctor King is saying and not saying 509 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: that all of his responses were like problematic. There are 510 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: something that were good, Like he's against a death penalty, 511 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: he was against the war, and people ask him things 512 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: about that as well. I kind of pulled out the 513 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: most delicious one. But yeah, I think that's an unintended 514 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: consequence for this advice column, all advice columns. And just 515 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: like when you like spout out things about like a celebrity, 516 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: you know, like celebrity having a baby out of way, like, 517 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 2: oh my god, she's so stupid. But then your homegirl 518 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: just found out she's pregnant and she wanted to come 519 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 2: and tell you, but she sees you typing on Twitter 520 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: that all women who have babies with niggas out of 521 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: way like are dumb, and the it's like, oh, well, 522 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 2: now I can't talk to you. 523 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: And they're forming these opinions based on people's lives who 524 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: they have no idea about. So I also feel like 525 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: it's easy to have less trust in when people are 526 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: saying those kinds of things on the internet versus what 527 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: they say with you in private. I feel like it's 528 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: an interesting conundrum because like, yeah, on the one hand, 529 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: you could see these people saying all these negative things 530 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: in forming opinions based on lives they don't know it 531 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: in public spaces, but like, probably what they say to 532 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: you in their face about a life they know a 533 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: little bit better is more honest. 534 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, probably more empathetic, but I don't know. It's almost 535 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 2: like did youso wear bandana is on they head and 536 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: drive hoopties are dumb and be like, oh my god, 537 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 2: I'm never coming to you for advice. 538 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: Do you think I've dubbed? 539 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 2: King continue publishing the column until December nineteen fifty eight, 540 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 2: when his doctor advised him to limit his commitments following 541 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: his September nineteen fifty eight stabbing. I think it's a 542 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: great piece of history. Like we said at the top, 543 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 2: folks are always invoking King and twisting his words. Here 544 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 2: we get to hear directly from King in a less 545 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 2: formal way. And remember King was in his late twenties 546 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: when he wrote this column. His opinions would have evolved, 547 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 2: probably did evolve up until his death at thirty nine 548 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 2: years old. 549 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a good point though, to you know, 550 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: think about all the ways that people are co opting 551 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: doctor King's words and saying what he should have said. 552 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: Everybody who says those kind of things are acting like 553 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: they are the foremost experts on doctor King's ideology, on 554 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: his biography, and we have to remember that they're not. 555 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: Like people feel really empowered to say how they think 556 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: doctor King would have felt, and what they think Doctor 557 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: King would have done, not having done a ton of 558 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: research on his history. So I think we have to 559 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: take their words with a grain of salt and also 560 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: remember that like at the end of the day, we 561 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: can't say any of this, None of us can say 562 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: any of this because doctor King is no longer with us, 563 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: and we can learn from the words that he did 564 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: leave behind and all of the other parts of his 565 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: legacy that he left behind, like family and like all 566 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: of the people who followed in his footsteps and learned 567 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: from him. But he's not here to say the things 568 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: that we are surmising that we're guessing that he would 569 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: have said. 570 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean there are foremost experts on doctor King, 571 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: and like they don't do that. And like as we 572 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: saw people like that one little quote about the interpreting 573 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: me in a colorblind, raceless society, or they love that 574 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,719 Speaker 2: quote about darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can 575 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: do that. 576 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 3: Do you know that one? Yes, I do. 577 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 2: It would have hated on a bridge here that I 578 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: hate driving over that brane. So yeah, people have they 579 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 2: little keen quotes that they liked to cherry pick, but 580 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: if you really read his stuff, like, they won't be 581 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: quoting what he says about like war in capitalism. 582 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: It's not feel good. Yeah, if it's not feel good 583 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: enough for them, it's not good enough to be a SoundBite. Yeah, 584 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: a little pithy, little SoundBite, but hey. You can read 585 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: more of King's Ebony magazine at Vice column at Vice 586 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: for Living online through Stanford University's archive. Give it a 587 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: gander and let us know what you think. 588 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: Now it's time for roll credits. The segment where we 589 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: give credit to a person, place, or a thing that 590 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: we encountered during the week is who are what would 591 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: you like to give credit to today? 592 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: I like to give credit to head wraps. I'm currently wearing. 593 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: A head rap rocking it. Don't say you're just wearing it, 594 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: rocking it. 595 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: I was leaving the house today and I've just you 596 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: know how sometimes you just get tired of dan your 597 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: hair being the way it is. I love my hair. 598 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: Don't touch my hair. I am not I am not 599 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: my hair, but I was it was just getting on 600 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: my nerves earlier. So I was like, let me put 601 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: it up something that's comfortable. And I was like, I 602 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: haven't been wearing heat wraps lately, and they're an easy 603 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: way to like still feel good about myself, still feel fashionable, 604 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: but also like head wraps have a lot of symbology 605 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: in so many different ways, and so I can still 606 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: like hold all of that while I'm wearing this thing 607 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: where it's like I want my hair to be out 608 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: today as well. 609 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: So that's why I want to give credit to head 610 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 3: wraps today. Shout out to head wraps. 611 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: Okay, I can never look cute in them, like you 612 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 2: got yours tied up. I can't. I don't know how 613 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: to do that, and I'd be looking at the videos 614 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: and I'm like why I should do not look like that? 615 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: But yeah, shout out to hair wraps. I would like 616 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: to give credit to time travel and the time travel 617 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: that happens when you read a book that was written, 618 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: you know, decades and decades ago before you were born 619 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 2: for your thought of and you read it and you're 620 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: like yes, like I understand exactly what you're saying, like 621 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: you are speaking to me right in this moment. I 622 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: just finished reading The Fire Next Time, and there are 623 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: so many lines where I was like, yup, that's going 624 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: on right now today, Like I feel you and I 625 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: think that's a particular thing with literature, where you get 626 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: to travel from the comfort of your wherever you're reading 627 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 2: and really know what was going on in the minds 628 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: of people at a particular time. And I think about 629 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 2: that when I write too, that hopefully someone will read 630 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: my words in the future and be like, yup, she right, 631 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: So shout out to time travel and we will see 632 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 2: y'all next week. 633 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 7: Bye bye. 634 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 635 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell, 636 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: acting for Martin Luther King Junior in today's episode done 637 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: by Spencer Bynes. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. 638 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. 639 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 3: You can also send us. 640 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: An email at Helloa at on Theme dot show. Head 641 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: to on Theme dot show to check out the show 642 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 643 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 644 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: favorite shows.