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Speaker 1: On October third, nineteen ninety three, Walter Gowdy threw a

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Speaker 1: party at his Indianapolis home. His half brother Romeo Lee,

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Speaker 1: and their shorter friend Kiti Harvell drove one of Walter's

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Speaker 1: cars to an after hours club in Anderson, Indiana. After

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Speaker 1: an altercation outside, Romeo approached a car on the passenger

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Speaker 1: side and Kitie was on the driver side. The driver

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Speaker 1: was fatally shot and a passenger was wounded. Witnesses described

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Speaker 1: the driver side shooter as shorter than the other. Months later,

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Speaker 1: Walter Gowdy was the same after hours club in the

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Speaker 1: same car and picked up by Detective Rodney Cummings, who

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Speaker 1: put him into a one man show up where Walter

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Speaker 1: was mistaken for the passenger side shooter his half brother Romeo.

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Speaker 1: Despite sixteen alibi witnesses, Walter was charged with the murder,

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Speaker 1: but between Walter's overly suggestive ID and his strong alibi,

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Speaker 1: the charges were dropped, which did not sit well with

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Speaker 1: Detective Cummings. When Kytie Harvell was later i indeed in

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Speaker 1: a live lineup by three witnesses as the driver's side shooter,

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Speaker 1: he told Cummings that Walter was the driver's side shooter,

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Speaker 1: not him. While placing Romeo on the passenger side. Detective

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Speaker 1: Cummings ran for District Attorney one and reindicted Walter. Despite

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Speaker 1: Romeo's confession naming Kite and himself, the state still forged

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Speaker 1: ahead with a prosecution based on conflicting witnesses. Almost all

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Speaker 1: misidentified Walter as his half brother on the passenger's side,

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Speaker 1: except Kite, who placed Walter in his place on the

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Speaker 1: driver side. Walter was sentenced to one hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: years in prison. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction today's episode. This is almost like the cartoon

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Speaker 1: of the Ping Pong match, where your head going back

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Speaker 1: and forth. You're like, wait, what what? Like you just

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Speaker 1: got going to believe the way this case unfolded and

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Speaker 1: how the system, I'm going to be generous and say,

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Speaker 1: made mistake after mistake and then compounded their mistakes, and

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Speaker 1: then even when the mistakes were corrected, they made sure

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Speaker 1: to correct the correction to make sure the mistakes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's I'm at a loss for words on this one.

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, but we're here with the

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Speaker 1: man who survived this ordeal, Walter Guadi Walter, I'm so

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Speaker 1: sorry you're here because of why you're here, but I'm

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Speaker 1: really honored that you're here to tell your story.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate it very much. So appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: And with him is his civil attorney, Richard Devorak. Richard,

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Speaker 1: it's your first time on the show, and I certainly

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Speaker 1: hope it's not your last. And I know you've done

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Speaker 1: great work on this case in particular, and I'm really

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Speaker 1: really delighted to have you on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for the invitation. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: So this is an Indiana story, which we're hearing more

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Speaker 1: and more about lately, as more wrongful convictions and prosecutor

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Speaker 1: must conducted police corruption are being wrecked, not only in

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Speaker 1: Indiana but all over the country. But before we get

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Speaker 1: into how that affects your case, Walter, I want to

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Speaker 1: go back to before all of that happened. Now, you

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Speaker 1: were born in Chicago, but you grew up out West.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Okay? I grew up in Los Angeles, myself and my

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Speaker 2: three siblings. My mom's up and moved moved away from

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Speaker 2: our father's But I grew up in Los Angeles during

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Speaker 2: the heyday of the gang banging and the drugs. That's

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Speaker 2: all we had to do to get by.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned your siblings. Now two of them, Lamont and Romeo,

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Speaker 1: were deeply affected by this incident. Romeo, of course, was

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Speaker 1: directly involved. Can you tell us about him?

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Speaker 2: Never smoked a joint none in his life. He provided

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Speaker 2: himself on that. He's a real cool guy. He's really loyal,

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Speaker 2: but he gets angry really quick. Romeo is the one

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Speaker 2: that you go get with us. Drama is they want

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Speaker 2: to fight out here, We're going to get Romeo. Growing up,

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Speaker 2: we both took martial arts, both took boxing. We both

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Speaker 2: started gang banging out there. No father figure. My mail

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Speaker 2: figures consist of the older guys in the streets. We

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Speaker 2: didn't have the people that tells you you could be somebody.

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Speaker 1: And the guys doing well out there were selling.

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Speaker 2: Drugs exactly exactly. We see the guy with the big Cadillac.

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Speaker 2: He always got the money, he got the jury, he

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Speaker 2: got the girls slot there. We want to be like that.

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Speaker 2: Me being the oldest, I felt in coming upon me

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Speaker 2: to get out there and make something for my siblings.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean. I saw selling drugs really young,

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Speaker 2: like thirteen years old. So I get a hold to Indiana.

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Speaker 2: I say, when I turned like twenty one. A friend

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Speaker 2: of mine was out there telling me how much the

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Speaker 2: drugs is going for, you know, So I came out

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Speaker 2: there and visit and found out, yeah, yeah, more expensive

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Speaker 2: Indiana than they are in California.

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Speaker 1: So you saw this as an opportunity and started taking

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Speaker 1: the risk. You know, there was a lot of risk,

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Speaker 1: let's face it, of transporting the drugs from California to

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Speaker 1: Indiana in order to reap the reward of a higher

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Speaker 1: profit margin. And despite a few arrests, including one in

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Speaker 1: Saint Louis from marijuana possession that had an effect, as

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Speaker 1: it turns out on this case, the risk had paid off,

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Speaker 1: at least temporarily. You made a lot of money, owned

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Speaker 1: a home, had multiple cars, and we're investing in legitimate businesses.

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Speaker 1: You had your own nightclub. But before we go any further,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about this one

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Speaker 1: character who you met in Indiana with the interesting name

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Speaker 1: Kytie Harvell.

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Speaker 2: I only had new Kittie like five months before this

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Speaker 2: all this happened. Titi is okay Laurna Smith, which is

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Speaker 2: my girlfriend at the time. Her brother was locked up

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Speaker 2: and her brother best friend was Kitty Harvell. Me and

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Speaker 2: her brother became real cool like my brother in law.

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Speaker 2: He let me know one day, Man, my god, you

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Speaker 2: ain't get out now, don't you look out for him?

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Speaker 2: Kydie got out. I'll take him shopping. I'll take him

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Speaker 2: on my under my wing. Started him hang with me

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Speaker 2: all the time. You know, we become best of friends.

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Speaker 2: I felt that he really was a genuine guy. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I just did. I don't know. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: I got sold to seat. And that's what really the problem.

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Speaker 2: My brother got me now because my brother didn't even

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Speaker 2: know him. My brother just called herself having his back

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Speaker 2: because he's my guy. So now he find his stuff

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Speaker 2: in prison with one hundred ten years. Now we're trying

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Speaker 2: to help my guy who turned out to be a scumback,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean, for lack of a better term.

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Speaker 1: Right, I'm sure you probably feel some degree of guilt

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Speaker 1: for even putting those two together. But your brother did

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Speaker 1: what he did, and at least he came forward instead

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Speaker 1: of lying about you like Kydi did. Now there's one

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Speaker 1: more thing to cover, which bears heavily on this case.

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Speaker 1: Kiti is about five to eight look and looks nothing

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Speaker 1: like you and Romeo, who are both over six feet tall.

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Speaker 1: And let's face it, you share a mother, your family.

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Speaker 1: You guys look similar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah we do, Yeah we do. We get a lot

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Speaker 2: even to this day, and were both balked now, so

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Speaker 2: we really get it now.

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Speaker 1: And this is important because it really comes up the

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Speaker 1: identification process in this case, because you have people identifying

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Speaker 1: you in your brother Romeo's role on the passenger side

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Speaker 1: of the car, and then Kitie and perhaps the police

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Speaker 1: tried to create and capitalize on some confusion around there

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Speaker 1: being two shooters, one short, one tall on which side

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Speaker 1: of a car. So let's get to that. The night

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Speaker 1: of October third, nineteen eighty three, you were hosting a

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Speaker 1: party at your home in Indianautlis Now tell us how

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Speaker 1: the rest of the night played out, and Richard, feel

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Speaker 1: free to jump in whatever you want.

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Speaker 2: So October third, I thow a party in Annapolis. Nice party,

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Speaker 2: big party, a lot of way. He's smoking, drinking, hanging party.

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Speaker 2: It no miles party. During the party, my brother in Harvelle.

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Speaker 2: They left went to a club and which is like

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Speaker 2: thirty forty five minutes they go there in Anderson, Indiana.

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Speaker 2: Altercation occurred outside of the club. I later found out

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Speaker 2: they was in one of my cars. At the time,

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Speaker 2: I had like six cars. I'm ready in the cars.

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Speaker 2: The altercation occurred with Kyti and the victim, Missus McLeod

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Speaker 2: shooting the curve and Rom your assistant in the shooting.

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Speaker 2: It had nothing to do with a car jack and

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Speaker 2: that's the story Kyte made up. I later found out

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Speaker 2: through my brother and again again I had several cars

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Speaker 2: and I wouldn't need to, you know, be involved, nothing

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Speaker 2: like that. But they had this incident. They agreed not

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Speaker 2: to tell me about it because I'll be upset. I

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Speaker 2: do absolute nothing about this case.

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Speaker 3: So there was a shooting at a club called the

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Speaker 3: Oasis and Anderson, Indiana. There were two shooters ran up

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Speaker 3: on a car that was parked in the parking lot

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Speaker 3: outside of the Oasis, and one shooter was a shorter

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Speaker 3: person and he was up on the driver side and

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Speaker 3: there was a taller suspect on the passenger side. The

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Speaker 3: occupants of the vehicle were a Marvin McLeod who was

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Speaker 3: in the driver's seat, Damon Nunn who was in the

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Speaker 3: passenger seat, and then Jill Barkley who was in the

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Speaker 3: back seat. So mister McLeod, unfortunately and tragically was shot

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Speaker 3: and died, and mister Nunn was shot, but he survived

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Speaker 3: and ended up being a witness in this case. So

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Speaker 3: there was no suspect. Originally, this went on for several

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Speaker 3: months with no suspect. There was some heat from the

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Speaker 3: NAACP and other organizations, and there's some pressure to solve

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Speaker 3: the case. So fast forward to February of nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 3: Walt was actually at the Oasis and there was someone in,

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Speaker 3: an employee of Oasis, who said, oh, that person you

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Speaker 3: know looks familiar. They thought that maybe he might have

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Speaker 3: been one of the people involved. Now, that person never

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Speaker 3: testified a trial, never identified him or anything. That just

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Speaker 3: that's what got their attention. And obviously it'd be pretty

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Speaker 3: logical to show up at the place where you did

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Speaker 3: the shooting.

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Speaker 4: In the same car, no less in the same car,

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Speaker 4: in the same car some of there playing pool and

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Speaker 4: here comes two officers ask me, see smady, you asked

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Speaker 4: some step outside sound was identified as being someone who's

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Speaker 4: evolved in a shooting in October, which you will to

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Speaker 4: come down to the station for a lineup.

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Speaker 1: So at this point we've already established that you knew

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Speaker 1: nothing about this crime, but you did something that later

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Speaker 1: really seemed to get under the skin of Detective Rodney Cummings.

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Speaker 1: You gave him an alias James Benneman in order to

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Speaker 1: avoid the warrant that I mentioned earlier out of Saint

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Speaker 1: Louis from marijuana possession. So continue, you go down to

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Speaker 1: the station for this lineup, right.

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Speaker 2: I go to the station. They put me in that

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Speaker 2: room by myself. There was one way mirror glass. He

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Speaker 2: come back in the area, he tells me I was identified. Possible. Impossible,

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Speaker 2: they don't. I'm not arrested, but they put me in

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Speaker 2: a jail suit like forty five minutes later. This time

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Speaker 2: they put me in a full lineup with five people.

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Speaker 2: This time me and five people, because the witness knew

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Speaker 2: four of the other people it was in the lineup.

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Speaker 2: The people that's identified, it's Senaport reports.

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Speaker 1: So the second lineup was basically pointless. It's almost as

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Speaker 1: suggestive as the one man show up, if that's even possible.

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Speaker 1: So nonetheless, the witness from the backseat, Jill Barkley, identified

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Speaker 1: you as the taller passenger side shooter, which kind of

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Speaker 1: makes sense since you look like your own half brother.

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Speaker 1: But then you were released. Maybe they kind of knew

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Speaker 1: that their lineup was overly suggestive. I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: why were you released at that time that caught?

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Speaker 2: Would me still be an adamant that it wasn't me

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Speaker 2: willing to submit to a polygraph. I gave him all

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Speaker 2: cell phone numbers. I gave him my page you number.

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Speaker 2: I gave my address to well I'm located at all that.

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Speaker 2: So he told me he was willing to let me

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Speaker 2: go this on Friday. He's willing to let me go

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Speaker 2: come back Monday when he gets some more witnesses that

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Speaker 2: he can put me in more lineups. Had me agree

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Speaker 2: to come back Monday. When I agreed, I agreed. But however,

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Speaker 2: I gave you aliens name because I had warrant by

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Speaker 2: the Saint Louis had marijuana on the highway, so I

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Speaker 2: gave him a fake name. Had they ran my princes,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't going nowhere. So by Monday you knew who

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Speaker 2: I was because you went on the random prince. You

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Speaker 2: knew I was. Now you know I had to warrant. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're not who you say you were. So Monday I

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Speaker 2: call him, I said, I ain't got transtation, can you

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Speaker 2: come pick me up? I don't worry about we be

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Speaker 2: in touch. Tuesday that came kicked the door into my

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Speaker 2: girlfriend house, arrested me, did another lineup.

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Speaker 3: They tried to do an official lineup, and they do

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Speaker 3: a second lineup. This one didn't involve people that she

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Speaker 3: knew by that time, though. It's ridiculous because she obviously

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Speaker 3: know who she picked out originally. And then to charge

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Speaker 3: Walter with the murder. But Walter was at a party

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Speaker 3: in Indianapolis, and he had sixteen alibi witnesses, and you.

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Speaker 1: Had, let's face it, you had no clue about what

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Speaker 1: happened in Anderson. But your brother, who was locked up

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Speaker 1: in Arizona unrelated charge, had found out that you are

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Speaker 1: now in jail for a murder in which he played

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Speaker 1: a role, and he eventually officially confessed before you went

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Speaker 1: to trial. Unfortunately, that confession was never heard by your jury.

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Speaker 1: But could you tell us about when you first found

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Speaker 1: out about your brother's involvement.

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Speaker 2: When I first got locked up, I was in there

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Speaker 2: maybe two weeks. No idea. While I'm here, this sounds crazy.

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Speaker 2: I know I haven't done that much wrong in the world.

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Speaker 2: I know I love a few things, but so Romeo

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Speaker 2: calls my girlfriend, my daughter's mother, when she told him

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Speaker 2: I was locked up for murder. He liked for murder, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they say he shot somebody in Andersy, like you recognize,

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Speaker 2: Like he's played my lawyer. Everything happened. My Lord comes

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Speaker 2: to visit me, big old smile on his face. I

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Speaker 2: know why to think it's you. I still what it

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Speaker 2: was your brother in Harvel, because my brother's in Arizona

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Speaker 2: locked up. I know I've been on the phone with

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Speaker 2: Themorrow Morning.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is in maybe March of nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: but he doesn't officially come forward until December ninety five,

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Speaker 1: which is after you were reindicted and about to go

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Speaker 1: to trial. And let's be clear, Romeo gave that confession

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Speaker 1: against his own self interest. He ended up with a

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Speaker 1: one hundred and ten year sentence. So, I mean, talk

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Speaker 1: about just going against your own self interest. But it

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Speaker 1: finally made sense of your misidentification because, like we said,

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Speaker 1: you two are half brothers, and you do look alike.

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Speaker 1: But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. At this point,

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Speaker 1: all you officially had in your defense, which was enough

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Speaker 1: to drop the charges, was sixteen alibi witnesses placing you

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Speaker 1: in Indianapolis, the fact that your identification was overly suggestive.

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Speaker 1: And then Jill Barkley, the backseat passenger witness, had spotted

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Speaker 1: Kitie Harvel in Indianapolis and reported it the court.

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Speaker 2: To reports, Kitty was in a Value City one day

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Speaker 2: in Indianapolis and the chick that was in the back

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Speaker 2: seat of the car when a shoot happened. Seeing they

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Speaker 2: locked eyes on each other and she watched him as

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Speaker 2: he walked out and she's like, that's the guy. So

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Speaker 2: this is her. In a report she mentioned that because

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Speaker 2: when they gave him a lineup, she's like, that's the

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Speaker 2: guy right there, I seeing the Value City, that's him.

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Speaker 2: That's the shooter. That's the shooter that was on the

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Speaker 2: driver's side of the car.

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Speaker 1: Right So Jill Barklay's identification of Kitie happened in March

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Speaker 1: of ninety four along with two other witnesses, Jackie Barclay

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Speaker 1: and Latanya Young. Latanya had at one point idd Walter

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Speaker 1: as a driver's side shooter, but in March of ninety

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Speaker 1: four she was positive it was Kitie. So maybe Latania

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Speaker 1: impeaches herself, but Jackie and Jill have been pretty consistent,

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Speaker 1: so this likely played heavily into your charges being dropped

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Speaker 1: by the prosecutor at the time, Bill Lawler. So then

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Speaker 1: you were extradited to Saint Louis for the marijuana possession warrant.

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Speaker 3: Rodney Cummings and his partner Steve Navier. They did not

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Speaker 3: agree with this decision to drop the charges.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't willing to let it go. He didn't want

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Speaker 2: to let it go to him. To this day, he

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Speaker 2: think I got away to him. I got away with murder.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how I got away. I just did

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Speaker 2: sixty nineve years for one but two out of had

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Speaker 2: him do it at all. His beef for me was

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Speaker 2: that I deceived him with the name. He felt that

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Speaker 2: I played him. That's his where, that is where to use.

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Speaker 2: He said, you played me, but.

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Speaker 1: Fake name or not. The prosecutor was simply following the evidence,

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Speaker 1: not some personal vendetta. He was doing his job, in

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Speaker 1: other words, So while Cummings continued to investigate the case,

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Speaker 1: Walter remained on his mind. Now. Despite this positive id,

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Speaker 1: Kiti didn't get picked up until June of ninety four

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Speaker 1: on an unrelated burglary charge and an interview that was

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Speaker 1: not even discovered until civil litigation, Kitie denied being involved

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Speaker 1: and gave a bogus alibi. Now, perhaps after looking into that,

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Speaker 1: Cummings brought Kitie in for a videotaped live lineup in

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Speaker 1: September ninety four and once again and he was positively

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Speaker 1: id as the driver side shooter by the three witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Now Kitie decided to save himself, and despite the conflict

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Speaker 1: between Walter's height and that of the driver side shooter's description,

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Speaker 1: Kitie Harvell, who stood only five to eight, said that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't him who was the shorter driver side shooter,

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Speaker 1: but it was Walter, who is not five eight but

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Speaker 1: again over six feet tall. Hard to make that mistake

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Speaker 1: and snitched on Romeo as the taller shooter on the

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Speaker 1: passenger side. But now with this statement and your charge

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Speaker 1: is being dropped. There was a dynamic created between the

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Speaker 1: then prosecutor, Bill Lawler and Detective Cummings.

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Speaker 3: And Roddy Cummings happened to be a lawyer. He had

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Speaker 3: gone to night school while he was a police officer

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Speaker 3: to become a lawyer, and he took it upon himself

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Speaker 3: to run for the prosecutor's office. It's election season, it's

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Speaker 3: the fall of ninety four and lo and behold he wins.

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Speaker 3: Detective Cummings now becomes Prosecutor Cummings. And what does Prosecutor

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Speaker 3: Cummings do. He turns around and reindictes Walter for the

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Speaker 3: charges that the prior prosecutor dismissed. So now we have

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Speaker 3: the detective becoming the prosecutor to prosecute a case where

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Speaker 3: he was once the detective.

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Speaker 1: The PACER's Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode

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00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,560
Speaker 1: of Rawful Conviction and of the Last Mile organization, which

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00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 1: provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully

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00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,680
Speaker 1: and permanently reenter the workforce. The PACER's Foundation is committed

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00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,680
Speaker 1: to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations

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00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 1: that are dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.

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Speaker 1: For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation

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00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: or the Last Mile program, visit Pacersfoundation dot org or

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Speaker 1: the Last Dot Org.

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Speaker 3: When Cummings reindictes Walter, it's on the theory that the

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Speaker 3: two shooters are Walter and his brother Romeo Lee, and

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Speaker 3: Kyte was a witness.

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Speaker 1: To all this.

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Speaker 3: Part of the problem, though, is that the state witnesses,

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Speaker 3: some of whom identified Walter as one of the possible shooters,

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Speaker 3: had identified Kata Harvell as the shooter, and that was

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Speaker 3: something that would have completely messed up that theory. So

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Speaker 3: what happens is they go to trial and Mark Mayner,

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Speaker 3: the original trial attorney, suspected that he was not being

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Speaker 3: given all of the police reports, and he did a

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Speaker 3: motion to get the police reports and a second motion

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Speaker 3: to reconsider a motion for in camera inspection of the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor's file to see if there were some police reports

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Speaker 3: that he wasn't getting.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: The judge denied it, and Walter went to trial without

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Speaker 3: knowing that the state's witnesses had identified Kite Harvel, another

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Speaker 3: state's witness, as one of the shooters. But what further

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Speaker 3: makes it absolutely impossible that Walter was one of the

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Speaker 3: shooters was the fact that during this prosecution, before he

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Speaker 3: went to trial, Romeo, his half brother, finally came forward

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Speaker 3: and admitted that he was the second shooter, that he

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Speaker 3: and Kyte did the shooting. So we have our two shooters.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: That makes all the sense in the world, because the

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Speaker 3: physical descriptions in this case were that a shorter gentleman

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Speaker 3: was on the driver side and a taller gentleman was

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Speaker 3: on the passenger side. Well, Walter and Romeo are both

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Speaker 3: tall and they look alike. Kiti Harvel is short. So

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Speaker 3: rather than go on what was the truth, and the

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Speaker 3: truth is that Romeo lead to the shooting on the

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Speaker 3: passenger side and Kitie did the shooting on the driver side. Instead,

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Speaker 3: the theory at Walter's trial was that Walter did it

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Speaker 3: with Romeo and Kyde was just a witness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this one with instructions. Right, So you have this shooter,

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Speaker 1: Romeo admitting, which is highly unusual before the trial, before

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Speaker 1: Walter's trial, that he did it, and he not only

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Speaker 1: said that Kyitie was the other shooter, but that Walter

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Speaker 1: wasn't there. He's a guy with firsthand knowledge and a

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Speaker 1: lot of everything to lose, right.

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Speaker 3: And unfortunately, the jury never heard the Romeo Lee confession

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Speaker 3: because Maynard couldn't figure out how to get it into evidence.

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Speaker 3: The confession never came in.

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Speaker 1: So one of the single most important piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: in this whole freaking case, which was later used to

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Speaker 1: convict Romeo, that jury never even heard it. It's insane,

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Speaker 1: let's face it. And in case this wasn't enough the

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Speaker 1: idea that this judge didn't feel that there was any

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Speaker 1: need for the defense to see the evidence from the

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Speaker 1: police files. Richard, help you.

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Speaker 3: Out, Well, this is another unique thing about this case,

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Speaker 3: unique to Indiana. Under Indiana law, the Indiana Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: actually ruled this and it still exists today. Police reports

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Speaker 3: are considered work product and they do not have to

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Speaker 3: be tendered by the state to the defense. Now you

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Speaker 3: have to ask, well, they still have to comply with

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Speaker 3: the United States Constitution, They have to comply with Brady,

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Speaker 3: So how do they do that? Well, I took several

402
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Speaker 3: depositions in this case as part of the civil matter,

403
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Speaker 3: and I asked several prosecutors, and none of them had

404
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Speaker 3: a good answer for how that happens. I mean, how

405
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Speaker 3: do you tender exculpatory material that's in a police report

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Speaker 3: without tendering the police report. So that's another aspect of

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Speaker 3: all this is that they were withheld under the fig

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Speaker 3: leaf that this was work product, which actually had some

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Speaker 3: sort of legal fig leaf to cover it. Now, what's

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Speaker 3: interesting is that we know from later on that withheld

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Speaker 3: evidence was the viewing of the witnesses of Harvel as

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Speaker 3: the other shooter, So this was a videotape. Well, under

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Speaker 3: any and of law, a videotape cannot be considered work product,

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Speaker 3: but police reports can. So the police reports that were

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Speaker 3: exculpatory were tender to the prosecutors. They weren't Cummings because

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Speaker 3: Cummings had to recuse himself. But the trial prosecutors had

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Speaker 3: the police reports, they had the exculpatory evidence, but they

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Speaker 3: didn't have the videotape. And why was that Well because

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Speaker 3: back in election season, in September of ninety four, before

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Speaker 3: Walter was re indicted, Cummings took the videotape out of evidence,

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Speaker 3: signed it out of evidence, and it was returned back

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Speaker 3: to the police locker back in nineteen ninety five. And

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Speaker 3: guess what the date was that that was returned back

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Speaker 3: into the evidence locker. It was the exact same afternoon

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Speaker 3: that the judge denied the in camera inspection of the file.

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Speaker 3: The prosecutors would not have had the fig leaf of

427
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Speaker 3: not giving over the lineup video, but they did have

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Speaker 3: the fig leaf of not giving over the police reports.

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Speaker 1: So under this work product rule, they were covered from

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Speaker 1: sharing the police reports about Kitie being identified as the

431
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,360
Speaker 1: driver's side shooter, But the videotape of that identification procedure,

432
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: which would fall under non work product evidence, was technically

433
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: not hidden because Cummings, who had accused himself, had taken

434
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: it out of the evidence locker. So now two of

435
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 1: the most important critical pieces of evidence in this case

436
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: that point to who actually committed this crime were out

437
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: of play. So Walter was charged with the murder as

438
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 1: well as attempted carjacking and robbery. You know, those other

439
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: two charges related to the motive that Kittie Harvell had invented,

440
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: A motive that made no sense considering that Walter owned

441
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: six or seven cars already and had more than enough

442
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: money to buy whatever he wanted. Now, David Puckett and

443
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 1: Paula Maris Roberts were the prosecutors in this case, and

444
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: Walter was represented by Mark Maynard. So I'm almost afraid

445
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: to ask what at the trial.

446
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 3: At the trial, the state presented the eyewitness testimony, so

447
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 3: the incredibly suggestive eye witness identification came in against Walter.

448
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 3: Kyde testified against Walter, and unfortunately the jury never heard

449
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 3: the Romeo Lee confession, even though he came forward a

450
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 3: couple months before the trial. Cummings indicted Romeo for the murder,

451
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: but that happened right before Walter's trial, and when they

452
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 3: tried to call Romeo's a witness, he took the fifth

453
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 3: and the confession never came in evidence. Now, that would

454
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 3: have been incredibly helpful to Walter as well, for the

455
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 3: jury to know that his brother, who looks like him

456
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 3: and everyone said looks like him, confessed to doing it

457
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 3: with Kayde the state's witness. And of course at trial,

458
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: the jury also didn't know that Kye Harvell had been

459
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: identified by the other state's witnesses as one of the shooters.

460
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: So the jury heard Kite identify Walter as the driver's

461
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: side shooter and Romeo as the passenger side shooter. But

462
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: then the rest of the state's witnesses identified Walter as

463
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: the passenger side shooter because he looks like Romeo. And

464
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: it's never pointed out to the jury that Kittie was

465
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: identified as a driver's side shooter because the prosecution kept

466
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: that to themselves. It's too bad the evidence that would

467
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: have exposed the lies and made it all make sense,

468
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: all of it was either hidden or not admitted as evidence.

469
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: Now now something happened outside of the trial that I

470
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: need to mention here Walter's brother Lamont, who we haven't

471
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: really talked about. On October third, he was at the

472
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: party and Kitie pulled him into the situation in his

473
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: statement to Cummings. So as soon as Lamont landed to

474
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: testify on Walter's behalf, Lamont was arrested. He never had

475
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: to testify against Walter, but he was coerced into a

476
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: plea bargain corroborating Kittie's statement. So this was not part

477
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: of trial, but it kept his alibi testimony out of trial.

478
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: What about the other alibi witnesses?

479
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: So Walter presented several alibi witnesses, you know, but this

480
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: is not something where you know, he's on on video,

481
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 3: but he was at a party with you know, friends,

482
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 3: and one of the witnesses they did sort of trip

483
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 3: her up in that she testified she took a flight

484
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 3: and she was confused about which airline she took, and

485
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 3: there was some impeachment about that. One of the other

486
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: reasons why I believe that Walter was convicted and why

487
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: they didn't believe the alibi was because one of the

488
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: alibi witnesses, a woman by the name of Linda Phelps,

489
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: you know, happened to be friends with Kytie Harvel and

490
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: before trial she came off of her statement that Walter

491
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: was at this party, which undercut his alibi defense. Well,

492
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: the problem is there was a police report that was

493
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: withheld from evidence that indicated that before she flipped, Kaye

494
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: had a conversation with her, which then miraculously then she

495
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: comes off of her alibi. So really anything like that

496
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 3: that can sort of chip away at an alibi when

497
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 3: you're staring at five eyewitnesses, you know, and no confession

498
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: that was introduced, no evidence that the eyewitnesses were identifying

499
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: the other states witnessed kydirl and it's hard for a

500
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 3: jury to overcome that.

501
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: Ultimately, Walter was convicted by the jury of murder, attempted murder,

502
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: attempted carjacking, and attempted robbery on December twenty first, nineteen

503
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: ninety five, sentenced about a month later on January seventeenth,

504
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, to one hundred and ten years in prison.

505
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: So a life sentence.

506
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was wow. Sheeees. Let's go to the verdict first,

507
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: then we go to citizen because both of them was

508
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: really painful. So they find me guilty. I'm I'm livid,

509
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: to say the least. I'm very perplexed about not only

510
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: did all the money I spent in it, not only

511
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 2: the fact that you're innocent, you know, it's the fact that,

512
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: like where is justice? Citizens? Like thirty days later, citizen

513
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: came up. I didn't go. You just find me guilty

514
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: of somebody, and I don't want to hear nothing else

515
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: to court got to say, so they said. My lawyer

516
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 2: to the deal. He said, I need you to be

517
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: in court for I can make this motion to just

518
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 2: miss the verdict and emotion for the judge to step aside.

519
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: After that, if you decide to leave, find and let

520
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: the judge you know you want to leave it. So okay,

521
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: I agree to that. I go over there, I walk in.

522
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: The judge makes you look before the post. Citizen, is

523
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: anything you like to say, mister Gaudy, yess I would Johnny.

524
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: I would like to let you the court, that prosecutor

525
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: right there, my lawyer, my prime invest car, everybody here. No,

526
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: I'm not gifted this crime, I said. I don't care.

527
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how much time you give me. I'm

528
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: gonna spent every day of it proved minuses. I said

529
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: this time, I don't want to hear the verdict. I

530
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: like to go back to myself. Whatever time you're gonna

531
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: give me, you're gonna give me. I don't care if

532
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: you gave me sixty or you gave me one hundred

533
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: and ten. And I'm not good for none of it.

534
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: In sixteen years of being in prison, sixteen and a

535
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: half years for me that he lived the lifestyle and

536
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: I lived in all that. I didn't have not one

537
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: fight in sixteen half years. In a year, not one art.

538
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: My beef was not with no inmate, my beef with

539
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: the system. I did my whole time Lowlai berries, digging

540
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: in researching cases. Men. Loli was my second home. I

541
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: didn't get into the prison politics and the things going

542
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: on in prison, with the games and the playing cards

543
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: and the shoot dice and and smoking cigarettes. Man. But

544
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: when they stopped smoking cigarettes in there, they gave us

545
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: heads up that they was gonna quit in ninety eight.

546
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: In August they told January first, no more cigarettes in

547
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: Missis City Prison. Ninety eight. When they cut out the cigarettes,

548
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: I saw the opportunity. Now we got the black market.

549
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: What I do I took a whole bunch of cards.

550
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: This dash. I dig holes everywhere. I had holes dug

551
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 2: all around the prison. Boy had hole I had I

552
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: used to work in the kitchen, I had it. I

553
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: had cartazolt in the ceiling up in the man I

554
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: stashed all the way to January. And look, I didn't

555
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: even break them out of January. I didn't break them

556
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: out to like April or May. But when I broke

557
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: them out, WHOA you talk about one hundred dollars a

558
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: pack of cigarettes? You talked five for one cigarette. They

559
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: take the one cigarette down and break it down in

560
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: five cigarettes two dollars apiece. So that's what that's really

561
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: what I got. The bulk of my money for my

562
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: attorney fees, I paid for like four attorneys in there.

563
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 2: But the bulk of my attorney fees came from tobacco sales.

564
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: Ain't lots of tobacco sales.

565
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: So tobacco sales made up the Walter Gotty defense fund.

566
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: But you also did a lot of your appeals on

567
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: your own pro se. And it's crazy, though not unbelievable

568
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: in our system, but still crazy that with how all

569
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: of the evidence had come out during your brother's trial.

570
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: Even then it still took another sixteen years.

571
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: The Romeo Lee trial was the unraveling of Walter's conviction. Ultimately,

572
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 3: although it took a long time, the state put on

573
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: a case against Romeo Lee heavily reliant on his confession.

574
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: And remember that confession was that Kayde and Romeo did

575
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 3: the shooting. But you know, they presented the same evidence

576
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: that they presented against Walter, and that's with the eyewitnesses

577
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: putting Walter as the passenger side shooter, even though Romeo's

578
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: confession was that he was on the passenger side, so

579
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 3: there was something for him to argue, at least at

580
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: that trial. But it was during that trial that during

581
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: the cross examination of Steve Napier, they learned that Kye

582
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: Harvell was identified by these states witnesses as the other shooter.

583
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 3: So it wasn't enough to you know, cause a not

584
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: guilty in Romeo's trial, but the attorney for Romeo Lee

585
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: did give that evidence to Mark Maynard. I should also

586
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: note that the lineups not only consisted of three of

587
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: the state's witnesses identifying Kye Harvel as the shooter, but

588
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: Damon Nunn, who was the attempt murder victim and was

589
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: an eyewitness who identified Walter as one of the shooters.

590
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 3: When he was shown the lineups with Kayte Harvel, he

591
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: identified a filler in that lineup as one of the shooters.

592
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: So obviously that's going to destroy Nun's credibility or reliability

593
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 3: as well when he identifies a filler as one of

594
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: the shooters.

595
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: Romeo's lawyer recovered as evidence and turned it over to

596
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: She recipees to Sharon Clark. Matter of fact, she didn't

597
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: have to do that because she had been watching my

598
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: whole child or my lawyers were really cool, so she

599
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: knew very much about the case. So she's like, wait

600
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: a minute, Mark never had this. This is gonna help

601
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: mister Galiti.

602
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: So now Romeo Lee's attorney gives Mark Maynard these withheld

603
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: police reports. Mark Maynard had been representing Walter on direct

604
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: appeal as well. He tried to get this into the

605
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: record on direct appeal. That didn't work.

606
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: My lawyer, he says it to his pre course and

607
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: try to mend my appeal. Now, minds you, in the

608
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: appeal he had lives that the prosecutor withheld eesculpatory evidence.

609
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: He lies this without having a proof. Now he got

610
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: the proof. Mind you, when he first got the proof,

611
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: he sat on him for two weeks because he was

612
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: dealing with his father's death, so he wasn't doing nothing. Yeah,

613
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: and I understood that, you know, he had to do

614
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: his father's death and all that. So here goes our time.

615
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: Now when you send it up to the courts. As

616
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: you send it up, the decisions coming down already denied.

617
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: And in the decision you deny it because you said

618
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: that he's a legend that this happened, but he had

619
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: no proof of it. But the proof is on your

620
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: desk now, but you are denied it.

621
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 3: The court said no, you're going to have to a

622
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: post conviction. So Walter is left alone here. He has

623
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: to file a pro se post conviction petition saying that

624
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 3: these Brady materials should give him a new trial, and

625
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: he was appointed a new council public defender named Sharon Fay.

626
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: Now you would think that when the original judge would

627
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 3: hear about all the shenanigans, Walter would have been immediately

628
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: given a new trial and never prosecuted again. But no,

629
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 3: it took six years and an evidentary hearing before the

630
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: judge finally denied the post conviction petition. And then you'd

631
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: think an appellate court would step in and say, well

632
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: that's wrong, that didn't happen. Indiana Supreme Court denied. We'll

633
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 3: go to federal court. Federal courts have to take this seriously, right, Nope,

634
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: pro say federal habes corpus petition denied.

635
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: If you don't have a degree, they don't honor it up.

636
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: Nobody like you or me just coming there and just

637
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: know all the law to them, like it's a slap

638
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: in the face for it was. It went to school

639
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: all them years, bust a butt to get the degree,

640
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: and you're gonna come here with citing all the same thing.

641
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: They know, they're gonna honor it.

642
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: You know, as one of our guest host, Patrick Presley

643
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: likes to say, pro say gets no play. They will rarely,

644
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: not never, but rarely ever give you the time of

645
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: day if you don't have a lawyer. So how does

646
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: this turn around? What happened next?

647
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: His last shot is his pro se attempt to get

648
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: this overturned in the Seventh Circuit, and thankfully the Seventh

649
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: Circuit appointed at him counsel from a big law firm,

650
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: and this attorney was able to convince the Seventh Circuit

651
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 3: that he received an unfair trial, and the Seventh Circuit

652
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 3: reversed his conviction after Walter did about sixteen years wrongfully

653
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 3: in prison.

654
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: It never ceases to amaze me that a defendant could

655
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: present such clear Brady violations, exculpatory materials that completely destroy

656
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: the state's case at trial and prove their claims of

657
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: actual innocence along with ineffective assistants of council claims. I

658
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: mean Mark Maynard even told Walter to pursue that claim

659
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: since he was in fact ineffective at getting that confession

660
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: and the identifications of Kyitie as the driver side shooter

661
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: into court. So with that evidence, no reasonable juror would

662
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: have convicted Walter. Yet every court along the way bent

663
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: over backwards, fell over themselves to ignore this wrongful conviction

664
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: in favor of I can only guess here the finality

665
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: of judgment and the sacrosanct jury verdict not to mention

666
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: covering for their colleagues in the prosecutor's office, and in fact,

667
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: Cummings is currently seeking a seventh term and running unopposed

668
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. I don't know what can be

669
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: done about that, But it really is sickening. So sixteen

670
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: years it took for a court to finally accept the

671
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: evidence that they used to convict his brother Romeo in

672
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: another trial that was shortly after his own. It's just disgusting,

673
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: let's face it. There's no other word for it. But

674
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: this ruling came down in May twenty ten, and your

675
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: lawyer at that time was Andrew Corritis. Remember Richard is

676
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: Walter civil attorney. But Walter, tell us, what do you

677
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 1: remember about that moment when you got the news.

678
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: Oh, this is one of the best days of my life.

679
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: Right here, I get a legal mail May fifth, to

680
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: down ten or to come down ala who you got

681
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: one hundred twenty days to give him a new trial

682
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: or release him? Now. I think I'm gonna go home

683
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: any day, But they still playing hardball. I'm in a honey.

684
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm countdown days every day. I'll wait you.

685
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: I think they canna call my name any day.

686
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: Now.

687
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: I think they gonna say, you know what, let him

688
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: go on one hundred and twentieth day. I gotta be

689
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 2: going home this morning. I would have gave my phone

690
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: to my neighbor. I gave my all my commissary away

691
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: and gave anything design A twenty day in the trial.

692
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: I asked my neighbor back for my phone quick, we'll

693
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: call my lawyer. He said, be patient. I work with

694
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: my mom and talks with him right now. If we

695
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 2: fire the charges, they said, he're gonna take you this trial.

696
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: He said. He talked to the prosecutor and asked the prosecutor,

697
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: what did you see in this case that you said?

698
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: I didn't see nothing. That's the problem. They just handled

699
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 2: the case, and I didn't want to just drop it.

700
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: So the Madison County prosecutor was Rodney Cummings. When this

701
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: thing was reversed and sent back to the lower court

702
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: for a new trial, the judge ordered that a new

703
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 3: prosecutor's office should look at it, and so an independent

704
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 3: prosecutor named Barry Brown from a different county looked at

705
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 3: this and he was the one who finally decided to

706
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: drop the charges. And I will say that Rodney Cummings

707
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 3: was quoted as saying at the time that mister Brown

708
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 3: didn't have the guts to retry Walter.

709
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: Whoa the guts right after the I don't even know

710
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: how to dignify that with words. After the evidence that

711
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: they had at the time of trial completely shredded this

712
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: guy's theory. He's still holding onto it almost three decades later.

713
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: You know, if it's not too late, I really wish

714
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: somebody would run against him. You could hit him over

715
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: the head with his own words all the way into

716
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: the prosecutor's office this fall. But we're running out of time.

717
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: The citizens of Madison County really do deserve better. Walter

718
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: certainly did so. Brown dismissed the charges in January twenty twelve.

719
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: I remember January thirteenth, two down twelve. I remember like

720
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: it was yesterday. I got that phone call from Richard,

721
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: let me know, all charges dismissed. We ready to go

722
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: with the loss. And he found my lawsuit the very

723
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: next day. He had already been paying for the lawsuit

724
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: because he was the one lawyer that was willing to

725
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: take my case without it being all the way resolved.

726
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: He believed it the case.

727
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: So thanks to Richard, the civil suit was filed immediately.

728
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: But of course these things are rarely resolved immediately. At

729
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: the time, Indiana didn't even have a compensation statute. Now

730
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: now they do, and there's something not so good about

731
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: it because it forces innocent men and women to waive

732
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: their right to civil litigation if they accept the compensation.

733
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: To me, this just adds insult to injury, and I

734
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: hope that it's corrected soon, along with that ridiculous work

735
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: product rule, which we should just call call it legalized

736
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: or legitimize Brady violations. I believe there's movement on both

737
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: sides of those issues, and we fully support that. So

738
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: as far as Walter's civil suit is concerned, the US

739
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: District Court denied it, but in May twenty nineteen, the

740
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: Seventh Circuit stepped up again and reinstated the lawsuits. So

741
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: in April twenty twenty, Walter settled his lawsuit. But let's

742
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,359
Speaker 1: face it, there's no amount of money that would ever

743
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: make up for the lost time with loved ones.

744
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 2: First, I want to say, I think it's very unfair

745
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:04,479
Speaker 2: that these prosecutors and detectives are able to pull something

746
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: like this off and get away with just giving them

747
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: a little bit of money. And it's old with you know.

748
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: I mean like it took years. I went in prison

749
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: the new father my oldest was number three years old.

750
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: I came out of grandfather. I can't get the years

751
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 2: back I don't care how much money you get me.

752
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: I can't get them back kids, graduations, they birthdays, I can't.

753
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: I can't get that back to It actually destroyed my

754
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: ability to be a really effective father. Their minds are

755
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: made up already in life. What life means to them.

756
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. I mean, I

757
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: can only imagine through the lens of my relationship with

758
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: my own kids, and it just breaks my heart. What

759
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: about your brothers, I mean, Romeo is still inside. I'm

760
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: sure you'll probably take this opportunity to visit them, But

761
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: what about Lamont, the brother that they coerced into a

762
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: plea that corroborated Kidi statement, Do you think you'd be

763
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: able to put that behind you and reconnect?

764
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: Listen, Lama flew in the test FI for me and

765
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: the rest of him on the spot and said that

766
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: Kytie said he was involved and just had a charge

767
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 2: on him. He said to jail when they found me guilty,

768
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 2: and I'm the one with the money now, So he

769
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: don't have a lawyer and he on no money. He

770
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: didn't want to take that chance. They gave him plea

771
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: bargain for five years probation to say that what Kytie

772
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 2: said was correct, that he was there and he watched it.

773
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: He didn't have testifout to this because I already convicted.

774
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 2: I'm already gone. Matter of fact, nobody in the family

775
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: he's seen or her from Missince then, because they was

776
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 2: all pissed off of him for doing that, like why

777
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: would you do that? It's almost like you cooperating Kytie's story.

778
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: But I understood his part. I haven't been able to

779
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: talk to him and lave. No, dude, listen, I'm not

780
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: mad at you. I understood that's a big chance to

781
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: take right there, and he took the plea bargain. He

782
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: since nobody in the family seen him, we don't know

783
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: where he at. Again, I just reaching out this labe. No,

784
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: I wasn't matter. But I just gave up on reaching

785
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 2: out because I don't want to think I was reaching

786
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: out trying to look for you or nothing, you know

787
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, it ain't that serious. I'm just

788
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: happy to be home.

789
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: Wow. So Lamont or if anyone knows Lamont, please let

790
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: him know. Make the most out of the time you

791
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: both have left. We're gonna have Walter's socials linked in

792
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: the bio reach out to him. Walter also has a

793
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: podcast that we'll link to, and with that we're going

794
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: to go to closing arguments. This is, of course the

795
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: part of the show where I thank you both for

796
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: joining us and sharing your story. And now I'm going

797
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: to turn my microphone off, kick back in my chair

798
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: and just listen to anything you feel is left to

799
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: be said. Richard, let's start with you and Walter take

800
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: us on home.

801
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 3: So there's been a lot of talk about, you know,

802
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 3: Rodney Cummings, and people may have the impression that, well,

803
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 3: this is sort of a one bad apple situation, but

804
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 3: the real problem here is that time and again there

805
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: were numerous people involved in the judicial system who could

806
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 3: have stopped this. From the judge initially, who could have

807
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: forced the review of the prosecutor's file so that the

808
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 3: withholding wouldn't have happened in the first place, to the

809
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 3: trial prosecutors going along with this withholding, to the trial

810
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: judge again once they learned about this withholding not correcting

811
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 3: this wrong. To the Indiana appellate courts who could have

812
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: stopped this, To the Indiana Supreme Court who could have

813
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 3: stopped this, the federal havieas Corpus judge could have stopped this.

814
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: We shouldn't have to rely on the second highest court

815
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: in the land, a federal court, to right these wrongs.

816
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: These should be corrected immediately in the lower courts, but

817
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 3: they're not. Unfortunately, and in Indiana, not only in Walter's case,

818
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 3: but in other Indiana cases, time and again, these wrongs

819
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 3: are not corrected in a timely manner. The people who

820
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 3: come acros cross these wrongful convictions need to step up

821
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 3: and not just allow it to happen, and they need

822
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 3: to do it quickly to make sure it gets done

823
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 3: in a timely matter, not sixteen years later.

824
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: I do appreciate y'all give me the opportunity now. I

825
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: feel that no amount of money they give me, no

826
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: amount of money they gave me, no aunt of money

827
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: they give me for me on out, it's gonna take

828
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: back all the years out of this my kid's life.

829
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 2: That's the biggest thing for me, my kids life. Anything

830
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 2: they do for me now is gonna be for my baby.

831
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 2: Securing their futures, you know what I mean. Make sure

832
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: they got the right account set up, putting insurances on

833
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: us if something happened. Make sure I got insurance. Make

834
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: sure my family don't have to be out there with

835
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: a bucket on the corner trying to bury me. If

836
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: you know when I when I passed, I went out.

837
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 2: If I passed, I'm gonna pass someday, but when I do,

838
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: to make sure they ain't got to struggle and try

839
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: to go go fund me. I done went through August

840
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: in that boxing there to get out and die and

841
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 2: can't be buried out here. You know what I mean,

842
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: I know what it is. Appreciate life. I wake up,

843
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: Appreciate life. I wake uppreciate my freedom. I already do.

844
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: I wake up appreciate everything about my freedom. Man, I'm free.

845
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: I'll steal free. I don't care if I ain't got

846
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: it right now. I got a dime in my pocket.

847
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: I am free.

848
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

849
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis.

850
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: With research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

851
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

852
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

853
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

854
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction as well as at Lava for Good on

855
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both

856
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason flam Raeful. Conviction is

857
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

858
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one