WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 58 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.120 can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to another 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:32.800 episode it could happen here. I'm your guest host of 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.600 this episode where I'm hoping to take a woman to 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:42.879 discuss the commons, the principles of successful commons management, and 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:50.639 why sitting attempts to establish the Commons of field. My name, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.560 by the way, is Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.000 You'd follow me on YouTube dot com slash andrewis m. 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.960 I'm joined here um with my two cool hosts that 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:08.800 will be Garrison Davis Hello, and James Stout. Hi. Awesome. 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.720 But before I get into exactly what makes the commons work, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.119 I least want to discuss what exactly the commons are 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:23.280 because despite being you know, common throughout human history, a 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:27.400 lot of people can't imagine how they might have wooked 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.040 what they are. Of course, the commons is a very 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.600 specific definition of particular context of you know, feudalism and whatnot. 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:40.160 But even outside of that, the idea of the commons 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:49.320 is essentially the resources accessible to all members of society, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.240 the totality of the material riches of that community or 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.040 even of the world, regarded as their whole inheritance, rather 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:05.480 than being subject at inclosure and to privatization. Even today, 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.040 despite the process of inclosure which is with you of 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.400 its own podcast episode or series of podcast episodes or book, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.959 even even today they are still you know, viable existing 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.959 commons institutions, and they've in some cases endured for well 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:26.959 over a thousand years. Most famously Helena Ostrom, the economists 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.320 who explored the concept in depth and depunct the Tragedy 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:35.560 of the Commons, wrote in her book Governing the Commons 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.120 that from you know, the alpine meadows of Torbell, Switzerland, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.359 to the three million hectares of Japanese for us, to 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:49.400 the irrigation systems of Spain and Philippines, the possibility of 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:56.480 community of popular rather than public or state or private 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:05.280 or corporate ownership exists. The possibility of communal ownership as 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:10.720 opposed to capitalist or state ownership exists. There's also the 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:16.760 communal land of Chiapas in Mexico after the successful Zaptista Revolution, 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.400 and of course, as I discussed in previous episode, there 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.640 are the Commons of Barbuda, where the entire island of 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.960 the twin island nation of Antiguan and Barbuda is owned 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:34.120 collectively by all Barbudas and regarded as their collective heritage. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:40.160 These projects, of course an art static. The commons and Barbuda, 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:45.400 for example, existed for about a hundred years, but had 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.760 some precedents prior to that and are now honestly being 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:56.119 encroached upon after the soul shock doctrine of the hurricane 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.560 that ravaged the island has opened up an opportunity for 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.920 again robilious government sort of swooping and privatize the land 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:11.200 um for the benefit of foreign companies and foreign resorts. 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.880 So the Commons is not this timeless internal institution that 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.839 can't be interrupted, that's never change um. In the case 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:23.359 in chap Us, you know, they had similar projects, similar 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:28.080 institutions prior to colonization. Colonization ruled in and interrupted all that, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.719 and thanks to the Zappleas revolution. They were able to 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.680 institute some semblance of that sort of commons institution, of 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:41.960 that communal land um for their collective benefits. They respond to, 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.920 experience conditions, to circumstance, to serve or in some cases 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:52.200 eventually not to the people. But of course, not all 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:57.520 commons are able to work, not all commons institutions operate effectively, 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.520 and she talks about why, using various keys studies to 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.080 illustrate her points. In the course of governing the commons, 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.640 she used, of course, the existence case studies to develop 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.600 sit in principles that she believed make the commons work, 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.400 the principles that she found in common between Switzerland and 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.800 Japan and the Philippines and Spain, and to then use 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.440 those principles to examine the common institutions that didn't work, 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.720 identified which principles were missing from the equation. But I'm 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.839 talking all about what these principles about, these principles of 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.720 successful commons management, and I haven't broken down what they 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:40.080 are exactly. So to get into that, the principles of 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:47.279 successful commons management as follows Number one, clearly defined boundaries. 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:52.760 Boundaries in the sense of having of those involved the 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:58.599 appropriators of the commons, the people who are directly access 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:03.000 in the commons have in a clear sense of structure 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.279 and characteristics of the resource system itself, whether it be 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:11.080 through a scientific study or through generationally preserved folk knowledge 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.640 as well as knowledge and a clear sense of who 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.560 is involved and withdrawn from and sustaining it. Even if 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.360 you know, even in the case where the entire world 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:26.359 has been common where all land has been returned to 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:33.000 common land, to the ownership of none and everyone simultaneously 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:42.360 in such a case, in individual instances of common pool resources, 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:46.080 whether it be a forest or a fishery, or a 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:52.520 lake or groundwater basin, the people most directly accessing those 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:57.320 that that segment of the commons, that system, that common 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.880 pool resource needs to have a clear sense of exactly 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.960 what that resource entails um, the limits of that resource, 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:09.479 the renewability of that resource, um, and who is involved 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.160 in withdrawing from and sustaining that resource, so that they're 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.280 able to collaborate. If you know, as in the case 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.040 with the tragedy of the Commons, everybody is just this 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.440 isolated actor, not communicating at all, not collaborating. There's no 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.880 collective institution in place to help them, you know, work 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.600 it out. They basically canna end up in a case 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.440 like the tragedy of the Commons, where the system is 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.800 depleted because nobody has a sense of what anybody else 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.520 is doing. Um, there's no there's no open channel of communication, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:45.400 which brings us, of course, to collective decision making power. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.560 That's the third principle. So I'm jumping ahead slightly, but 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.840 it flows better this way, um having collective decision making 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.720 power over the commons, meaning there's an institution in place 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.840 that these who are drawn from the Commons are able 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:09.160 to come together and discuss the rules of the Commons. 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.360 How are they going to draw from the Commons, how 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.160 are they going to deal with the Commons, how they're 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.280 gonna deal with each other as they deal with the Commons, 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:21.000 and so on. And to afford, the idea of rules 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:30.080 is not anti anarchists as a concept, um, just the 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.800 idea that there is not you know, popular inputs and 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:39.240 collective inputs and free association in place. Um. And so 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.680 with consensus, with this institution of collective decision making power, 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.120 people be able to come up with and modify the 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.360 rules as it suits their situations, as it's as it 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:57.120 suits their shift in circumstances. Um. And of course, and 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.720 this is the second principle, that they appropriation and provision 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:09.960 rules of the Commons are compatible with local conditions. The 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.400 whole ideas that do not relying on any external authorities 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.280 to come up with these rules, to commit to these rules, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.520 to bind themselves to these rules, even when the temptations 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:26.760 to violate those rules apply. So as a practice of 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.199 you know, developing community, you need to have some sense 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.559 of shared norms and developing those shared norms over time 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.680 regard and behavior. And of course, as in the case 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.520 in almost of all societies, of course, reputation and one's 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.959 reputation will play a rule. Um, if you are known 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:51.720 to be consistently violating the Commons rules, of course they're 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:53.679 going to be social consequences to that. That's just a 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:59.280 natural consequence. Just because the commons exist doesn't mean that 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.640 people are free of the consequences of how they use 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:07.760 those comments. Just like in the case of the environment. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.760 You know, just because you can cut down all the 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.440 trees in the forest, doesn't mean you're free of the 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.760 consequences from cutting on the trees of that forest. Your 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.400 actions are still going to have consequences, whether it be 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:28.479 environmental or social. There are of course limits, as there 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:33.680 as there are in any other aspect of life. But 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:39.400 of course simple norms regarding behavior or concerns about reputation 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.600 may help. But you're also going to need the fourth 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.920 and fifth principles established in some form effectively meant in 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:52.320 social harmony. The fourth principle is of course, monitoring, which 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.880 is the process of continuously evaluating the conditions of the 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.800 common pool resource itself as well as the behavior of 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:04.240 the appropriators. Now term monitoring, it's kind of spooky, right, 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.480 It sounds a little bit like Big brothers watching you 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.839 kind of fight, But that's not really the intention. It's 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:17.319 just the idea that it's just this this constant, informal 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:23.640 process of looking at and observing and collecting data on 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.400 the conditions of the commons, the conditions including how people 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.920 behave with the commons as well as the you know, 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:35.120 commons themselves, the resources themselves, how much of them we have, 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.959 how quickly they're being you know, renewed, that sort of thing. 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.840 And and through that process of each person, each appropriator 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:49.480 of the commons, institutions um monitoring the system continuously, you 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.920 begin to learn what rules work and what rules don't, 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.160 and so you can adapt your rules to suit the circumstances, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.040 to suit how people actually behave, which is something in 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.600 that centralized and hierarchical institutions have a bit of trouble doing, 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:09.079 because when you have this horizontal common institution, you're able 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.680 to look at, Okay, this is how things are going 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.040 so far, and let me we can we can now 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.400 talk about it. We're constantly in this dialogue. We're all 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.160 able to contribute our information in this horizontal system and 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:29.680 adapt our rules and our behavior to suit. Whereas in 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:34.000 the pyramid structure of a hierarchical and centralized organization, but 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.120 further up the pyramid ecal yes, the more power there is, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.479 as centralized institutions tend to have, but also less information 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.400 because the narrowing of the pyramid leads to less and 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.319 less information from the bottom filtering up to the top. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:52.600 And so when you have these centralized institutions, rules are 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.960 a lot more rigid because they're not able to respond 0:12:55.040 --> 0:13:03.080 quickly and effectively and as informed as informally um to 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:08.000 the situations as they arise. That's also why eighty percent 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.800 of the planet's biodiversity is being protected by a very 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.480 small percentage of indigenous people because they are on the ground. 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:20.600 Because they are they're interact with the systems in real time. 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.000 They're able to respond directly and quickly to changes in 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.800 that biodiverlity, to changes in behavioral in order to maintain 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.120 and sustain that system. Whereas you find that a lot 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:38.600 of conservation projects, a lot of restoration projects, in environmental 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.760 frustoration projects are feeling you know, I recently read an 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:48.040 article about how a lot of these tree planting initiatives 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.840 that governments have been doing these days, while you know, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:55.400 it gets them good, publicity gets them good, you know, social, social, political, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:01.080 international clouds. When you go back one year, two years, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.439 three years down the line, almost all, if not all, 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.160 the trees are dead. The community is living by these 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:14.000 reforestation projects, we're not involved in the process. They don't 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.080 have any say in the selection of the trees. In fact, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.960 the trees aren't always even choosen in accord and with 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.920 local conditions. They often isn't enough biodie felicity in terms 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.400 of the trees. I mean when it comes to a forest, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.680 and that's what people don't understand. Forests are living organism. 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.960 You know, it's it has multiple layers, has multiple pasties. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:34.960 You just pop us at the trees down and expect 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.240 things to work out. Okay, you know, um James C. 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.800 Scott talks about this in scene like a state. You 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.120 can't just in these states they start these sort of 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:52.239 forestry projects. They try to legible, legibilize, you know, these forests, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.320 these simple rules and organizations, and you cut out all 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.080 the fluff, all the shrubbery, all the other plans that 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:03.240 are competing coote and coote, you end up with a 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.520 dead system, you know, to put the system that is 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.560 very fragile, that is not able to respond to changes 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.440 in the environments they arise because it does not have 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.560 the buffers of a complex web of life in place. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:21.000 Indigenous groups and really anybody who is grounded in the 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.880 local context is able to most effectively engage and respond 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.880 because they have access to that information, because they're able 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.520 to see the shocks to the system, the buffers, what works, 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.240 what doesn't. Human culturists are able to you know, these 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:40.960 intensive systems because they are constantly monitoring coming full circle here, 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:46.640 constantly monitoring the feedback that they're getting from their systems, 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.280 And of course there's a fifth principle. You know, in 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.120 these sort of situations, you're still going to have a 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.440 couple opportunistic people maybe attempt who may be tempted to 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:02.120 take advantage of the trust presence in the group. Um. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.440 And when I say opportunistic people, I don't mean to 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.280 create this other this group. I just mean it's in 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:14.320 the sense of, you know, you have, like we all do, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:20.000 moments of weakness, right, and in those moments of weakness, 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.800 it can be easy for some to falter, and in 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.840 that falter and jeopardize the security of the system as 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.080 a whole. And so the fifth prince will successful. Common 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:35.320 spanagement is the practice of accountability and systems of accountability 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:40.680 through graduated sanctions. Of course, empathy needs to maintain throughout 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.280 the process. And I don't think that every infraction must 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.880 automatically responded to with sanctions. Like again, I'm not trying 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.400 to do something. It's just obviously when you have a 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:56.480 system that has and I know I'm reference to ninety 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:01.000 for like a right fringer, but yeah, I think it's 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.560 finely reference if correctly, as opposed to like someone who 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:09.400 hasn't read it or read anything else that he wrote, Yeah, 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.960 we can take it. But you know, obviously not every 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.000 situation gonna respond to its sanctions, obviously empathytion, immunity and 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.240 throughout the process. Um. But when you have a system 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.960 in which a lot of people are dependent on the 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.120 sustainability not just people living right now, but generations to come, 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.439 and that's not something we accustomed to thinking about, but 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.480 generations still coming out and think about. With these sort 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:39.359 of commons institutions, you can't do as the capitalists do 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.480 and just let people do whatever with minimal if any 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:48.880 environmental protections, with minimal if any like standards in place. Yes, 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:53.720 infractions varying severity and stuff, but when the livelihood of 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.480 the entire community is that state, you know, things can't 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:00.480 be so easy. When infractions are just you know, temporary 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.680 deviations or and threatening to the overall survile the CPR, 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.760 then you know, tolerance can be high. But it depends 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.159 on the circumstance. And that's why it really is important 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:16.080 that the prior four principles or in place. You know, 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.679 you have the clearly defined boundaries, you have the rules 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.080 of the commons established by collective decision making power over 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.200 the commons, with a constant process of monitor in place, 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:31.840 because again, the responsiveness of the people on the ground 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.520 is a lot more in tune with the conditions of 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.919 the commons and with the needs of the people themselves, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.200 because they are the people. And the fifth principle and 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.480 the fourth principle, all the other principles would be nothing 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.960 without the sixth principle, which is the presence of conflict 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.879 resolution mechanism. Humans are kind of human, you know, we 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.879 make mistakes, we have disagreements, and it needs to be 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.280 some sort of means of discussing and resolving conflict and 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.560 a healthy and effectively. There are a a lot of processes 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.919 in place. UM. A lot of communities, Galterian communities throughout 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.880 history have used some sort of system of mediation. UM. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.439 There's also arbitration, which tends to be more common in 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:18.680 state societies. And they are also new models and methods 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.560 of justice being established and drawn from from the past 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.679 as well that we can look into. But they are 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.560 conflict resolution mechanisms. They have to be in place the 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.240 successful comments management. We live in a society, and society 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.080 includes conflict. Conflict is not always necessarily a bad thing, 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.520 but it's a thing, and you ignore it and expected 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:44.359 to go away. The seventh principle is the freedom to organize, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.480 and this principle is, you know, the basis upon which 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.720 the other principles arrest. In some places people have a 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.600 lot of autonomy to self organize free of state control. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:01.240 In other places they don't. In other places, there's a 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:06.760 lot of states encroachments on the commons because that has 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.640 been the mission of the state to further their ten 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:19.720 drils in every sphere of life and existence. So obviously 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.480 the end goal, but one of the end goals the 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.960 complete abolition of the state, and obviously the process upon 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.080 which we reach those end goals would require pre figurative 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.639 politics in the sense of establishing the institutions that we 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:38.880 want in the future society in the here and now 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:44.840 and building that dual poll capacity to provide a competitive 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:50.080 excuse the capitalists terminology, but a competitive model that can 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:55.440 you know, compete with rise from and separately from eventually 0:20:55.920 --> 0:21:00.560 replace um the existing systems and that state process of 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:06.680 social revolution. Have a video coming up on that in December. Lastly, 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.720 and this does not apply to every instance of commons management, 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.520 but in some cases you need the eighth and finale 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.240 principle for successful commons management, and that is nested enterprises, 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.320 which is, you know, basically the same principle as an 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:32.680 anarchist confederation. You know, if a particular community is access 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.399 in a commons institution that other communities are access in, 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.199 or if the commons that a group of communities are 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:47.440 accessing are part of a larger regional commons or archpeologic 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:53.639 commons or continental commons, then he wants to have means 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:58.399 of collaboration bottom up of course, partom of organizations, but 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:00.879 you know, maintain the power the local level while coordinates 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:05.600 in these larger scaled commands and ensuring that there's a 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:10.480 smooth running and smooth communication between the appropriators, you know, 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:18.120 the people involved. These principles very clearly differentiate between success 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:25.280 and the failure cases. To reiterate, the commons and the 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:30.280 principle of successful commons management as follows. Clearly defined boundaries, 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:36.000 rules compatible with local conditions, collective decision making power to 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:40.000 establish those rules, monitoring to ensure that those rules are 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:45.239 compatible with people and conditions. Graduated sanctions to ensure that 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:50.520 rules are kept up with and the commons are protected 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:57.399 from potential threats. Conflict resolution, mechanisms because humans are going 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:03.359 to human freedom to eyes, particularly in the fragile early 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:12.240 stages of establishing these projects and nested enterprises confederation from 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:17.920 the bottom up. In certain failure cases, we see that, 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:23.200 you know, none of the principles apply. Um. For example, 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:28.560 in the book, eleanor Austrom references these two Turkish fisheries, 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:32.879 the Bay of His Mirror and Boardroom, where there was 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:39.240 severe rent diticipation continuing unabated. Of course, the book was 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:41.000 written a while ago, so I'm not sure how the 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:49.080 situation has evolved since then. But rent dissipation is basically 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:53.239 a circumstance in which the commons corn pool resources are 0:23:53.280 --> 0:24:00.280 being depleted severely and the sustainability of those comments at take. 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:03.440 And so with all those principles in place to ensure 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:07.480 that doesn't happened, um, you get a situation like what's 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.200 going on? But what was going on in the Bay 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.560 of his Mirror? And put in the Kirin the oil 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:19.760 irrigation project in Sri Lanka, they did have clay boundaries, 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:23.320 that one principle in place, but the other principles were not. 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:29.800 In Mojave, California, they did have the institution of collective choice. 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.240 They did have contact resolution mechanisms, and they did have 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:37.000 the recognized right to organize, but the other principles are 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:40.440 not in place, and so that institution was also a failure. 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:44.080 Or we can look at the case in the Mabella 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:49.760 fishery also in Sri Lanka, where renticipation had become a 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:54.880 very severe problem, particularly after nine Now they did have 0:24:55.320 --> 0:25:01.920 rules in place, they did have a monitoring system, but unfortunately, 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.159 you know, despite having those rules, despite having you know, 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:08.320 regulating regulating the access to the beach and the use 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.080 of the beach scenes and the control of the number 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:15.840 of nets to be used. I mean, they really did try. 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:20.200 It wasn't a problem of ignorance the issuers that although 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:22.720 they were aware of the consequences of adding too many 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:26.800 nets and drawing too much from the fishery. The issue 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:34.320 became that the appropriators, the fishermen themselves, they don't have 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:39.600 the autonomy to make an enforce the rules of the fishery. 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:43.399 That was deprived of them, and so the institution was 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:47.080 not able to sustain itself in the long term. So 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:49.480 in all these cases, you know, no more of the 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:55.080 three design principles actually characterized any of these cases, and 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:58.159 so they were unable to solve the problems that they faced. 0:25:59.160 --> 0:26:01.560 There of course, all sort issues where they are viable 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.880 but fragile common systems where you know, they have more 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:07.080 of the principles in place, but they still lack all 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.160 of them. So also in Sri Lanka there's a gal 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:15.800 oil where boundaries and membership were clearly designated, where rules 0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:19.960 have been devised and monitored, where collective choice arenas have 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:25.000 been set up, but they you know, did not have 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:28.760 the autonomy and they do not have collect conflict resolution 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:32.040 mechanisms in place, and so the institution is not as 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:37.000 robust as it could be. Of course, when it comes 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:42.680 to the Commons and existing institutions, existing fragile institutions exist 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:48.680 in successful institutions, existing failures of institutions. That does not 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:53.600 necessarily need to limit all imagination of possibilities, but it's 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.119 good to be informed as to what has worked in 0:26:56.119 --> 0:26:59.679 the past and what hasn't. We can still imagine future scenarios, 0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:02.639 next peraments and how they might play out. But the 0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:06.320 point is, if we're trying to reinstate the Commons, we 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:09.639 need to understand what makes them work, at least what 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.400 has made them work in the past and in the present. 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:16.760 More information of the Commons and also the potential of 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:22.119 library economy. You can check out my videos on the 0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:26.160 Commons and the library economy on my channel YouTube dot 0:27:26.160 --> 0:27:30.080 com slash Aurism. You can also check out Eleanor Ostrom's 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:34.040 book Governing the Commons, as well as a book called 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.120 Eleanor Astrom's Rules for Radicals, which I haven't read yet, 0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:40.720 but I felt it was pretty good. If you like 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:42.600 what I do, you'd like to support me, you could 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:46.399 follow me on pitture dot com slash same true and 0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:50.119 on Twitter dot com slash underscore, same true. That's what 0:27:50.200 --> 0:28:10.080 I happened today. It could happen here. Peace, Yeah, welcome 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:13.800 to make it happen here. A podcast about things falling 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:17.719 apart and then maybe kind of putting them back together 0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:21.320 again sort of. This this This is This is a 0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.840 special episode about the thing that happened where a thing 0:28:25.960 --> 0:28:28.320 that happened is the Brazilian election. And with me to 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:34.320 talk about this is Garrison Hello and James Hello. So 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:39.120 I think I think people probably know by now Louis 0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:42.200 Nacio Lula is Silva, better known as Lula, has defeated JR. 0:28:42.280 --> 0:28:50.840 Bosonaro in a absolutely terrifying squeaker of a presidential election. Um. 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:54.560 This is like, by far the closest election that Lula 0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:56.600 there is, a former two term president of Brazil, has 0:28:56.640 --> 0:29:00.240 ever won. Um. Part of this is a camp pain 0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:03.600 of last minute voter suppression that Bolsonaro own his supporters did, 0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:08.320 where like like basically like the Brazilian federal police started 0:29:08.360 --> 0:29:11.720 setting up like they set up fifty roadblocks to stop 0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:14.280 people in the low strongholds from voting. There's like the 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:19.720 assaulted people. Um, it wound up not mattering and right now, 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:24.680 as as a time of recording, which is uh one pm, 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:30.840 one third pm Pacific on Halloween, Bolsonaro was missing in action. 0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:34.040 There's no like, no one's seen him. The only the 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.040 only thing, the only sign of life that there has 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:43.200 been from him is he unfollowed his wife. Amazing stuff. 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:46.440 It's it sounds like he just locked himself in the 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:49.120 presidential palace and turn and turn all all of the 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:53.760 lights off. Yeah, he's he's missing and no nobody's seen 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:56.840 or heard from him. Um. So by the time this 0:29:56.880 --> 0:29:59.000 episode comes out, there's like a small chance there's been 0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:01.479 a coup. There's like small chance he's died from COVID. 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:05.560 I don't know, probably neither of those have happened. But 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:14.040 you know, so Lula won his election like he won 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.080 like like fifty point eight percent of the vote roughly. 0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:20.480 And okay, so there's a lot of voter suppression, but 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:23.080 even voters suppression cannot explain why Lula, who won his 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:26.760 last elections with respectively sixty one and sixty percent of 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.560 the vote, was reduced to like fifty point eight percent 0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:34.080 this time. And okay, so that this begs two questions. 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:37.600 Who is Luis Snasia Lula da Silva and how did 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:41.840 we get to this election? So the first episode of 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:43.520 this is going to be answering the first question, and 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:47.280 the second episode is largely the second question. Okay, so 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:51.640 who who actually is Lula? Lula is born in actually 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:53.960 his birthday is a few days ago um to a 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:58.680 desperately poor family in Brazil's northeast um and this family 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:03.040 moves from the northeast to what became known as the 0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:06.120 ABC region of Brazil, which is Santa Andre San Bernard 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:13.720 sent sorry Santo Andre sal Bernard who who can't say 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:17.640 names of Brazil? Now? This is this is not a 0:31:17.680 --> 0:31:22.520 famous name, this is sal Bernado. Wait, are you conflating 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.480 Brazil and Argentina, which are famously not the same country. 0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:28.120 Different languages is the thing. If this wasn't Spanish, I 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:29.640 could do this and I'm gonna make it. I can 0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:32.280 make this claim here. All my pronunciations to this are 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:34.480 based on my terrible knowledge of Spanish. The problem is 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:38.600 Brazil famously speaks Portuguese, a language that is not Spanish. 0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:42.520 So yeah, but okay, so there there's there's things of 0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:46.959 the ABC region because there's three cities there that are 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:51.520 abc UM as part of this sort of mass migration, 0:31:51.560 --> 0:31:54.200 which is is popularly remembered as like this mass migration 0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:58.640 of people from the northeast to sub Hollow, But the 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:00.560 sort of thing actually that that that's the memory of 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:04.120 the actualities that millions of people flow into sub ho Hollow, 0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:08.080 like from all across Brazil Um. The ABC region becomes 0:32:08.080 --> 0:32:10.920 the Brazil sort of industrial heartland. Like every story you 0:32:10.960 --> 0:32:14.080 read about this, we'll call it like Brazil's Detroit, And 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:19.239 that's kind of true and kind of not true. Like 0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:22.840 I don't know, every everyone who writes about Brazil is like, 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:27.680 how can we make this the US? And like god, 0:32:27.680 --> 0:32:31.520 fibida out of countries have their own realities. Yeah, and like, okay, 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.640 like there is an extent to which Brazil is also 0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:41.640 like the ex slave colony thing, right, but no, like Brazil, 0:32:41.640 --> 0:32:46.680 Bazil is its own country. Um. However, come up, the 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:51.640 ABC region becomes the core of Brazil's massive metalworking industry. Um. 0:32:51.720 --> 0:32:54.800 In this industry is just like from the fifties of 0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:58.560 the eighties, just like purely expanding. Um. The historian J. D. 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:00.800 French knows that the ABC is poppy relation increased by 0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:05.760 eight percent from the So Lula arrives in the middle 0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:08.680 of a veritable industrial revolution. Um, this is going to 0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:11.440 end in one of history sort of great built industrial 0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:15.240 working classes. But he's there. That's kind of not what's happening. 0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:16.760 Or The other thing, as you mentioned bout this region 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:19.560 is that when I say metal working, So there's the 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:21.800 reason there's so many Detroit comparisons, is that this is 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.520 this is a reason that is massively involved in Brazil's 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:28.080 auto industry, which in this period is expanding it. This 0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:31.320 is very large. Um. I think I think I've actually 0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:34.640 talked about this in the Neo Liberalism episodes. Um a 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:40.880 little bit. But yeah, so Lula like leaves school in 0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:43.640 fifth grade to basically find whatever work he can in 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:45.680 the street. And this is another sort of very famous 0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:48.520 thing that everyone talks about about Lula Abalkio, Like he 0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:50.480 has like a grade school education, and that's like sort 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:53.719 of true, Like it is true that he never like 0:33:53.720 --> 0:33:55.680 like graduate, like you know, he never went to school 0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:58.720 past like fifth grade. Mostly. I thought we'll get to 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:01.840 some other stuff that he did later. Um, what happens 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:03.720 basically is that his his mom is able to get 0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:06.520 him into this this metal this this government metal working 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:10.280 sort of apprenticeship program that is teaching like young people 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:12.800 how to do how to basically become skilled metal workers. 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:16.920 And this also is an education, right, like you know, 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:19.400 the people people in this there's there's a lot of 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:21.600 very interesting sort of like theory stuff about this about 0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:24.200 how these people like are are also kind of worker intellectuals. 0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:27.400 Because in order to like be a metal worker and 0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:28.839 to do all this stuff, you have to know a 0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:30.960 ship ton of stuff. You have to know. You have 0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:32.719 to know a bunch of tactical stuff about how metal works. 0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:34.319 You have to know that you know, it's it's very 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:37.759 highly skilled, very high like degree of knowledge you have 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:39.400 to have. So you know, he he gets this kind 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:44.200 of education. Um, and he becomes a very very good 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:47.480 metal worker, and he's he's part of a a like 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:49.960 a highly skilled and the academic literature will call it 0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:53.240 highly paid. Although like, okay, this is highly paid compared 0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:55.799 to like someone like someone who is a worker, but 0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:58.600 who's not like a metal work like one of the 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.480 sort of skilled quote unquote metal workers. Um, they're not 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:04.880 like these people aren't like lawyers right, like they're they're 0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:06.960 they're so closer to the actual sort of working class 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:11.440 than you know, so somelm like people who are sort 0:35:11.480 --> 0:35:14.160 of like auxiliary parts of the ruling class. And he enters, 0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:17.160 you know, he enders the sort of manufacturing boom as 0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:19.759 part of what's called the Brazilian miracle. Well, okay, so 0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:22.680 he he's there a bit before the sort of Brazilian 0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:25.360 miracle starts. But there's this period of the militaryed katership 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:29.560 for sakes power where they kind of like luck into 0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:35.840 a functioning economy. Although I should I should mention this now, Um, okay, 0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:40.720 So in this period in Brazil, like inflation being good 0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:45.120 and under control is inflation is like when inflations everything 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.120 is considered fine and when it goes up from it's like, 0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:51.520 oh no, we've lost control of inflation and this this 0:35:51.600 --> 0:35:54.960 kind of like this is a survivable thing because people's 0:35:55.000 --> 0:35:58.560 wages are short of indexed to um like that their 0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:01.839 index to cost of living increases to some extent, which 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:05.839 is the thing that like, yeah, it would never happen here. Yeah, well, 0:36:05.920 --> 0:36:08.759 I mean, I guess if if you do the kind 0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:10.759 of stuff these guys do, you can probably get some 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:16.080 of this. But yeah, so, but the sort of interesting 0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:17.440 thing about what's happening here is you have a very 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:21.360 large industrial working class, but it's not really very militant 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:24.040 for most of the time. Lula's in it, except for 0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:29.040 sort of right around the military, like Cui, Lulas sees 0:36:29.320 --> 0:36:33.520 some of kind of like the old radicalism, like he 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:37.200 he talks about like you know, like watching people like 0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:41.919 storming factories because they're on strike. Uh, the Brazilian working 0:36:41.920 --> 0:36:44.279 class does. There's a lot of fun stuff that they do. 0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:47.600 Like they do things like okay so that everyone will 0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:49.839 show up to a protest with like a bunch of 0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.320 like pockets full of barbles, and when when a calvar 0:36:52.360 --> 0:36:54.759 recharge starts to just roll the all rolling barbles down 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:59.880 the street and the person fall. It's an o G 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:05.160 Battle of Cable Street. Yeah, yeah, my absolute favorite one. 0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:08.400 This is just like like pure looty tune ship. Um, 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:13.120 they do this thing where Okay, so they'll string piano 0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:17.080 wire up like between light posts and then they'll bait 0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:19.680 calvalry units the charging at them and then they run 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:21.960 the thing and the guys will just get sucking close lock. 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:28.160 That's so good. Yeah, that's pretty great. Horse cups You 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.799 didn't in America but not no, no, no, no, well 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:36.080 they you see them sometimes, Like I have seen some 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:39.480 horse cops. Portland's horse cops only like stop existing a 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.920 few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. In the UK of until 0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:47.839 very recently they used them to police protest. Yeah. Yeah, 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:51.080 there was fowenty of people getting run over by horses 0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:55.680 in the States. Yeah yeah, they still do this. Yeah, 0:37:55.840 --> 0:38:00.720 fucking sucks there. Actually, Okay, I think the most famous 0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:03.240 police horse relatest story in the US is a Philly 0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:08.480 sports fan. I think it punching a police horse. What 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:14.040 a city. Yeah. The most famous British police horse thing 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:19.960 is that the horse humping the cop. Critical support to 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:26.000 the Yeah, it's quickly copy the image into the chat 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:29.520 so you can want to enjoy it. I'm okay, I'm 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:32.239 glad that we've taken this episode in this direction. Oh my, 0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:37.879 holy sh it. That Oh my god, Okay, I thought 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:42.240 it was graphic. Do you know what else will take 0:38:42.280 --> 0:38:46.319 a cop and bend it over and nope, alright, well 0:38:48.920 --> 0:38:54.880 promise that, Garrison. Here's some advertisements, and we're back with 0:38:55.000 --> 0:39:01.239 other things that won't scar my soul forever. Oh boy. 0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:06.040 Up until sort of five there there had been a 0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:08.880 kind of left wing government in Brazil and then the 0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:14.040 military q like just overthrows it. And the left is 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.080 kind of just like annihilated from this. And it's not 0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:18.480 just from the pure political repression which forces like like 0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:23.560 all the communist parties are forced underground like um. But 0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:25.880 one of the one of the things, like one of 0:39:25.920 --> 0:39:28.960 the real things that sort of like really shatters the 0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:34.800 Brazilian left is that, like the coup happens and the left, 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:36.640 you know, the left sort of noses the cue coming, right, 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:38.319 but they expect that when the coup happens, there's going 0:39:38.400 --> 0:39:39.879 to be strikes and like the working class is gonna 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.799 fight them and they're gonna beat it, and everyone kind 0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:45.600 of just like in the factories kind of just shrugs, 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:50.280 and nothing happens and they just get rolled over. And 0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:52.640 this is the start of this period of sort of 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:56.560 like you know, this kind of like the workers movement, 0:39:56.600 --> 0:39:58.359 like nothing is happening in there's some sort of radical 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:01.279 student groups trying to do stuff, but like I know 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:04.480 there's a Brazilian version of sixty eight, but mostly what 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:06.680 happens there was like one factory gets occupied and then 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:09.120 the army shows up with guns and they get owned 0:40:09.320 --> 0:40:12.359 and it's really grim, and you know you have these 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:16.560 sort of like like tiny like actually, okay, you're these 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:23.080 tiny Catholic Maoist groups who these Maoist student groups. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, 0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:26.840 we just straight through that. It's it's not um normal, 0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:31.279 totally normal. Yeah yeah. And then you know they're trying 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:32.920 who tried to do like drill in certainty stuff, and 0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.120 the army just sort of like kills them all. Um, 0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:37.680 they're horribly destroyed. So for for almost a decade and 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:42.600 a half, like you have a very deep politicized industrial politaria, 0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:44.600 and and Lula's part of this right like from from 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:46.920 from like when he enters the workforce until like the 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:50.759 late seventies, he is not political at all. Are they 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:53.600 doing the thing under the dictatorship where they have like 0:40:53.760 --> 0:40:56.520 pet unions. I guess when it's like one mandated union 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.680 for the industry. I was about to talk about this. Um. Yeah, 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:01.719 so the Brazilian libor system. And the thing is, so 0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:04.120 this wasn't set up under this military sectatorship. It was 0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:08.200 kind of set up under like a previous one. But this, yeah, 0:41:08.239 --> 0:41:09.960 it's still sort of a thing. All of the unions 0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:11.680 have to register with the state, and when they're doing 0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:14.560 contract negotiations, right, they're not negotiating with the corporations, negotiating 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:17.440 with the state, and so this means that like the 0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:19.960 state is setting wage rage. It's gonna become important later. 0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:22.000 But yeah, there's a really interesting sort of problem here 0:41:22.040 --> 0:41:24.880 because there's this entire class of basically sort of like 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:29.440 government union guy who's like basically a bureaucrat and it's 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:34.080 like really corrupt and yeah, well and and this is 0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:35.680 something like and like like a lot of people just 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:38.319 hate them because like that, like you know, because because 0:41:38.320 --> 0:41:40.680 they are like literally what these people are are like 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:43.320 they're a guy who's doing this job to get ahead, 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:45.839 and then their job is to sort of like like 0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:48.400 you know, technically it's like mediate the class struggle, right, 0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:50.399 but like what that actually means is like make sure 0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:53.080 that like there isn't actually sort of like like make 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:54.880 sure the union isn't actually sort of a source of 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:56.719 class conflict. And you know this, this is this is 0:41:56.760 --> 0:42:00.560 the whole sort of thing behind this because for like 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:04.600 still had this really really built and like labor movement, 0:42:04.640 --> 0:42:06.640 they had a bunch of anarchists, like the archics tractor 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:08.960 over the government a couple of times, maybe these huge 0:42:09.000 --> 0:42:11.640 general strikes, there's the communist parties like a real thing, 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:14.080 and then the government tries to bring all of like 0:42:14.120 --> 0:42:15.879 you know, okay, we're gonna bring all the unions under 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:20.160 our control. And it's still also true that these are 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:22.640 like they're still technically unions, so there are people who 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:25.840 are sort of doing union organizing in them, right, like 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:28.279 they still do some regular union stuff. And yeah, we're 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:30.840 gonna talk about this a bit more later, but there's 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:33.919 I don't know, these unions are fucking weird, Like they're 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.520 not like unions anywhere else have've ever seen. Yeah, But 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:39.279 so okay, So the other thing, like lu Lula in 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:41.120 this point, like it's a political right people people keep 0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:42.719 trying to talk to Hi about politics, and he's like, 0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:45.280 I just want to play soccer and light chase girls. 0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:48.080 And he talks about this like changing like it speeches 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:51.320 a lot. But his brother, who's known as Frey Chico, 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.880 is a Brazilian Communist Party miility for like his entire 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:58.200 life and being being a PCB militant in like the 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:02.120 cities and seventies, this is like life threatening. Uh, the 0:43:02.120 --> 0:43:05.200 party is outlawed. Everyone is so clandestine that like fried 0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:08.120 Chico's own wife doesn't know that he's a communist and 0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:10.200 finds out that he's a communist when he gets arrested, 0:43:12.040 --> 0:43:14.560 like it's it's this, this is this, this is like 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.160 this is like the level of like clandestine shit that 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:19.080 everyone that that that like you know, the sort of 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:22.200 communist parties are working on under here um. But fres 0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:24.320 Chico is also like an open union activists and everyone 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.600 knows he's like he's a leftist basically because you know, 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:29.879 the even even sort of like the unions are sort 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:32.800 of like split between like there's sort of left factions 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:35.080 that are like trying to actually do union stuff, but 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.399 like for towards sort of leftist goals, there are like 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:40.759 more moderate people who are like bread and butter trade unionists. 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:42.279 And then there's also just like a bunch of people 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:47.879 who are like just the corruption faction. UM. But yeah, 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.120 like Lula doesn't like Lula like doesn't care about the 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:52.360 union at all. Like he's not even in the union 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:55.720 until Free Chico, like his brother just like like literally 0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:58.040 just like drags him, kicking and screaming into running for 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:01.279 an elected position in the union because I like he 0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:04.320 needed a guy to run on a slate, but he 0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:06.960 couldn't run himself because everyone knew he was a leftist. 0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:09.520 So he was like, Okay, I'm gonna your brother, you run. 0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:12.319 You're you're you're not like openly a leftist. You can 0:44:12.320 --> 0:44:15.279 actually win this, and this is you know, and then 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:17.439 this works and he gets elected. And this is where 0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:21.480 Lula like learns politics um from the book Lula and 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:24.919 his Politics of Cunning quote. Lula would have to master 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:29.360 the mundane aspects of union life, including bureaucratic routines, budgets, services, 0:44:29.400 --> 0:44:33.120 and preparing union assemblies. Lula would also undergo a gradual 0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:38.120 politicization through relationships with fellow directors, union lawyers and staff, 0:44:38.280 --> 0:44:42.320 and activists central to the union's turbulent internal politics. Finally, 0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:45.080 Lula would need to learn about the repressive dimension of 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.960 working class life under military rule, including close supervision and 0:44:49.000 --> 0:44:54.120 surveillance by police, employers and labor ministry officials. And what's 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:56.799 interesting about this story is, like everyone around him when 0:44:56.800 --> 0:44:59.239 he joins his union, including basically his boss and the union, 0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:02.560 is a guy named Vidal who's a very powerful union leader. Um, 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:05.600 like you know, his brother to Like everyone thinks he's 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:08.280 going to be this sort of like compliance like obedient fingerhead. 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.360 And instead what they have done is they have created 0:45:11.680 --> 0:45:15.960 arguably the greatest politician of the twenty first century. Um, 0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:17.719 what are the things that's important to note here is 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:19.560 that like, okay, so, like the unions are are like 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:21.680 fucked up, right, and everyone kind of says they're sucked up, 0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:24.880 these are still probably the most like like these are 0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:27.680 probably still the most competitive democratic collections that are happening 0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:31.480 in Brazil. Like Brazil technically has elections that there's these 0:45:31.480 --> 0:45:34.040 sort of like two official parties. So okay, so it's 0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:36.840 kind of weird that the military like is in power, 0:45:37.000 --> 0:45:38.919 but like they have the sort of veneer that they're 0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:41.800 not and theydentically they technically sometimes have a civilian president. 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:44.439 They have these sort of like parties that are kind 0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:47.399 of real, but you know, the the union actually has 0:45:47.440 --> 0:45:49.759 like there are like leftist slates, there are conservative slaves. 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:52.319 Like there there's actually sort of politics going on. And 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:55.200 Lula is actually able to sort of like make his 0:45:55.320 --> 0:45:58.359 mark through through his abilities just like make friends with 0:45:58.440 --> 0:46:00.320 people on both the sort of like radical and moderate 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:03.360 side of the union um union sort of political aisle. 0:46:03.520 --> 0:46:07.040 And this is because Lula, like Lula is just it's funny, 0:46:07.239 --> 0:46:09.600 he loves playing soccer, he loves just like dancing and 0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:13.600 hanging out. And this lets him like win his election 0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:16.239 slate like pretty easily because you know, she's she's just 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:19.600 she's just very popular. So these are things that like, 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:21.760 I don't know, like the other workers in the factory 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.440 a lot of times don't care that much about union politics, 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:26.160 but they do care about like that you care about 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:28.399 soccer a lot. And so Lula was able to build 0:46:28.400 --> 0:46:31.480 a bunch of support and this lets him sort of 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:33.600 easily take a position in a union system that, like 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:38.759 I it's basically a miniature state. Like the unions have 0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:41.239 their own welfare programs, they have they have their own 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:43.840 education system, and you know, this is part of the 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:46.080 thing that people talking about Lula is completely uneducated. Like, no, 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:47.879 it's not like he he spends a bunch of time 0:46:47.960 --> 0:46:50.640 like in classes that like the the the union like 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:53.600 puts on basically like university and academic classes right, for 0:46:53.600 --> 0:46:55.560 for its workers and for other people sort of affiliated 0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:57.239 with him. So he spends a bunch and this is like, 0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:58.880 you know, part of where he'd learned sort of politics 0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:00.719 and where he large political economy is like is through 0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:04.240 the through these classes the union has and he sorry. 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:06.560 The union also like you know I talked about, like 0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:09.120 they run welfare programs, right, So he's like he's like 0:47:09.160 --> 0:47:12.440 a social worker, right, trying trying to sort of like 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:14.799 help workers and pensioners with his job. He gets this 0:47:14.840 --> 0:47:21.720 position that like everyone hates, like he has his position 0:47:21.719 --> 0:47:24.640 basically like running running there sort of like like welfare 0:47:24.640 --> 0:47:26.680 program and like nobody wants it, but he like does 0:47:26.719 --> 0:47:28.879 it and he doesn't really well. And this makes him 0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:31.000 really popular because he's the guy that, like, you know, 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:32.680 if you're like a pensioner, right, like he's the guy 0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:34.520 you go to to figure out pension bullshit, and he's 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:36.120 the guy you just go to in order to sort 0:47:36.160 --> 0:47:41.719 of get stuff done. And yeah, you know this means 0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:43.880 he's spending a bunch of time doing paperwork and like 0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:47.400 negotiating with government bureaucracy, and he this makes him a 0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:52.080 very very effective politician. Um, he's from Lula's politics to 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:55.799 cutting again. But Lula also gained access to an even 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:59.360 larger constituency at the union headquarters, a working class public sphere. 0:47:59.719 --> 0:48:02.200 Do you know how many people passed by the union daily, 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:06.160 he asked a journalist in ninety nine, at minimum fift hundred. 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:10.280 Those frequenting the union did so for many reasons, often 0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:15.239 for various sorts of assistance or sistencia, which I think 0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:20.920 is yeah, like government union assistant stuff, but also to 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:23.640 complain about work, shoot the breeze, or catch up with friends. 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:26.799 Some union directors often arrived late to the headquarters and 0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:30.320 we're always busy when they did the Gregarius Lula, by contrast, 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:32.759 maintained an open door policy, and his office became a 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:36.239 gathering point form break and file workers, factory activists, and 0:48:36.280 --> 0:48:39.680 fellow directors still linked to production. And this is everything 0:48:39.680 --> 0:48:41.800 that's sort of important about this is that like, okay, 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:44.280 like once you reach like a certain position in the union, 0:48:44.400 --> 0:48:46.200 like you're just a full time a union guy. And 0:48:46.200 --> 0:48:48.759 so there's a lot of people who like join the 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:50.759 union and become like union people because it means like 0:48:50.760 --> 0:48:54.000 it takes you off the shop floor. And there this 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:56.880 you know the government does is deliberately right, because it means, 0:48:56.920 --> 0:48:59.279 you know, you're creating they're they're they're they're the thing 0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:00.960 that they're trying to do, create a certain of bureacratic 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:03.719 area between the working class and like their union. But 0:49:03.880 --> 0:49:06.440 Lula's like still really connected to what's going on the 0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:08.480 shaft floor because he's just like talking to everyone all 0:49:08.480 --> 0:49:13.279 the time. And the product of this is that Lula 0:49:14.000 --> 0:49:17.359 is becomes a very very like he comes to trade union, 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:19.680 it becomes a very very powerful one. He who rapidly 0:49:19.719 --> 0:49:23.120 becomes the president of his union after some like Vidal, 0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:26.440 who's like his boss had there's this whole thing where 0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:30.080 he's trying to stay in power. But he doesn't run 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:34.280 for president of the union because of some complicated political maneuvering, 0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:36.319 and so Lula ends up as the head of the union. 0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:38.120 Fadells like it's fine, I'm still going to be a 0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:42.440 control here, and that's not what happens you you you 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:45.640 have just you have just given the presidency to like 0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:50.640 like a a a genuinely truly singular like political figure. Um. 0:49:50.719 --> 0:49:53.959 But but there's there's something that's very very important about 0:49:54.000 --> 0:49:56.880 Lula that you need to understand to figure to like 0:49:56.880 --> 0:49:59.760 to understand anything that's about to happen here. And basically, 0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:03.400 Lula is not a communist. This this is this is 0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:06.680 very important. Um. He could not have done what he's 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:09.759 about to do, which is, you know, become literally like 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:11.919 the living symbol of one of the largest strike waves 0:50:11.920 --> 0:50:14.319 in Brazilian history. He could not have done this if 0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:16.800 he was a communist. The military, if he was a communist, 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:19.080 military would have you know, tortured and possibly executed him 0:50:19.120 --> 0:50:21.040 like they've done with thousands of other communists. His brother 0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:24.719 Frey Chico, was kidnapped and tortured horribly by the military, 0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:27.400 although he like he will insist that he didn't have 0:50:27.480 --> 0:50:29.520 it as bad as like a lot of other people did, 0:50:29.560 --> 0:50:31.839 which is true, but also like they tortured the ship 0:50:31.880 --> 0:50:34.920 out of him and it was fucking horrific. And the 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:37.839 fact that like every single person, like and the fact 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:40.520 that every single fucking member of the military dictatorship was 0:50:40.560 --> 0:50:43.760 not fucking like taken out behind a shocking shed shot 0:50:43.800 --> 0:50:46.000 and had their like corpses fed to dogs. Is like 0:50:46.280 --> 0:50:48.520 genuinely one of the reasons why we're here right now. 0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:55.400 The stuff is awful. It is a theme of the podcast. Yeah, yeah, 0:50:55.800 --> 0:50:58.799 but what to do with dictated you know, and Lula 0:50:58.840 --> 0:51:01.000 Lula and she's wife eventually able to sort of get 0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:03.279 him released because he's not like a very high like 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:05.560 he's in the PCB, like he's in the Communist Party 0:51:05.560 --> 0:51:08.080 like his brother like, but he's not like a high 0:51:08.120 --> 0:51:11.600 ranking guy. And you know, the sort of cruel irony 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:13.920 of it is like they knew that he didn't know 0:51:13.960 --> 0:51:15.800 anything that they didn't already know, but they just tortured 0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:19.360 to share to him. Anyways. Um, but one of the 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:21.880 important things that happens here is his brother like under torture, 0:51:21.960 --> 0:51:24.400 like insists that Lula is not a communist and like 0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:28.640 continues to insist this because he isn't and you know, 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:31.799 and like people who are like that and and people 0:51:31.840 --> 0:51:34.279 in the moltitary chairship like believe this right because like 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.840 the like they're you know, they have a really extensive 0:51:36.840 --> 0:51:39.080 sort of intelligence network like at this point that they've 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:41.839 basically like they've they've basically destroyed the Brazilian Communist Party, 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:44.440 and they've like captured and killed most of her cadre. 0:51:45.160 --> 0:51:48.440 And because he's not a communist, Lula is able to 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:50.640 stay in the labor movement even if in the short term, 0:51:50.600 --> 0:51:52.120 after his brother gets the rest of he loses his 0:51:52.200 --> 0:51:54.520 job in the union because and he's able to do 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:57.919 this because like beyond his brother, who like his brother 0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:00.440 has literally been like saying communist stuff at him for 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:02.080 decades and he Lula has just been like, I don't 0:52:02.080 --> 0:52:04.680 care um, and like a couple of other people who's 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.320 just quite kind of friends with like Lula, like he 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:09.440 has no connection to the organized left, like he's he's 0:52:09.480 --> 0:52:14.000 not sort of like like he he's not like a 0:52:14.120 --> 0:52:16.759 leftist right like in in that sort of conventional sense 0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:18.319 like he's he's not tied to one of sort of 0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:22.920 the old left political factions. And this means that he 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:25.000 can stand in as a kind of sort of labor 0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:30.360 leader that the more moderate fashions the military dictatorship have 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:32.960 been looking for, which is this sort of like non 0:52:33.000 --> 0:52:37.680 communist like quote unquote genuine trade unionist and okay, so 0:52:37.800 --> 0:52:40.320 like talking about like a moderate faction of a military 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:42.399 dictatorship is always kind of fraud because you know it's 0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:46.080 a military tatorship, but like, like all these people suck. 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.359 It's also true that there were there were factions within 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:51.080 the military tatorship who so there's a fashion called like 0:52:51.120 --> 0:52:53.600 the dungeon, which is like the people torturing all these 0:52:53.640 --> 0:52:56.040 people to death. There were other people in the military 0:52:56.080 --> 0:52:59.480 tatorship who are like this is really fucking ghost, Like, 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:01.680 why are you guys doing this? Like this makes us 0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:04.640 look bad? Also why are you torturing these people? And 0:53:04.960 --> 0:53:10.320 those guys look at Lula and they they're they're willing 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:15.879 to work with him because like what what what they 0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:18.800 think they're doing is creating this sort of like authentic 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.160 non communist labor movement that will like work with them 0:53:21.160 --> 0:53:22.799 the stop communism like sort of like the a fl 0:53:22.800 --> 0:53:24.960 CIA like specifically talk about this like in the in 0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:26.200 the way that the a f l C i OH 0:53:26.239 --> 0:53:28.040 does in the US work work working is in the 0:53:28.120 --> 0:53:29.960 communist force. They they think that they can get Lula 0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:32.680 to do this, and Lula does a lot of stuff 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:35.360 that like looks like collaboration to the sort of like 0:53:35.400 --> 0:53:38.560 surviving leftists around him. He develops like literally like personal 0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:41.400 relationships kind of friendship. It's not really friendships, but like 0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:44.760 the personal relationships and professional relationships members of the regime. 0:53:45.360 --> 0:53:47.680 And you know, again it like it looks like he's collaborating, 0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:49.280 but that's not, that's not that's not what's actually happening. 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:52.520 What's actually happening is that he's holding these negotiations in 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:54.200 order to sort of increase the power of the union 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:57.480 and build this like safety network be like that. Because 0:53:57.480 --> 0:53:59.720 he has these personal relationships with people in the regime, 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:01.759 it is that he's not going to get disappeared and 0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:04.080 his people are going to get disappeared. And this had 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:05.719 happened to a lot of even a lot of sort 0:54:05.719 --> 0:54:08.359 of other regular union activists who didn't have this kind 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:10.640 of connection just like get vanished. And the people are 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:13.640 able to build connections with like keep him from being 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:16.960 like vanished and keep his trade unis and being slaughtered. 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:22.160 And you know, like the people in like in the 0:54:22.160 --> 0:54:25.399 military kidership like really think that like Okay, they've they've 0:54:25.400 --> 0:54:27.400 they've gained you know, like they they're they're getting an 0:54:27.440 --> 0:54:32.479 ally and defeating communism. Uh. The thing they are actually doing, uh, 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:36.800 it's progressing their own grave Diggers UM and okay you 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:40.040 know before yes, you know who else is creating their 0:54:40.040 --> 0:54:44.719 own g Grave Diggers Garrison U. The advertising industrial complex. Yes, 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:51.640 they have produced us Weakened dream unbelievable. Well in the meantime, 0:54:51.760 --> 0:54:54.600 So inside inside the New Batman game, you play as 0:54:54.640 --> 0:55:01.480 the four sidekicks after Batman UM allegedly dies. And the 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:06.560 weirdest thing is that they because three of the side 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:10.080 Kicks don't usually have capes. They you know, they don't 0:55:10.160 --> 0:55:14.000 do any kind of massive gliding feature for city traversal. Instead, 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:17.000 you have a really slow, bad cycle and then you 0:55:17.080 --> 0:55:20.919 have an almost spider Man like grappling hook and it's 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:24.920 it locks onto anything around you. It's really confusing. Are 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:29.319 we back? Okay? And we're back? We should we should 0:55:29.400 --> 0:55:33.160 leave in like just like two minutes of Batman talking 0:55:33.760 --> 0:55:38.919 was completely bowed. So okay. There's the ever thing about 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:42.759 Lula just as a person is that fundamentally he's a negotiator. 0:55:42.880 --> 0:55:45.920 Like his style was almost like Biden esque in the 0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:47.960 sense of like Biden sort of beliefs like talking to 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.160 everyone across the political etcetera, etcetera. Except like, okay, the 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:56.359 key difference here is that Lula is actually charismatic. Um hm, yeah, 0:55:56.400 --> 0:55:58.480 but like you know he will just sit there like 0:55:58.560 --> 0:56:00.520 with people across the aisle and like talk things out 0:56:00.520 --> 0:56:02.279 and negotia with them. He'll talk with employers, will talk 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:04.880 with members of the military dictatorship. But you know there 0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:06.960 were differences that like, Okay, so Biden is like is 0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:08.879 a concert politician, right, Like when he when he talks 0:56:08.920 --> 0:56:11.880 about like talking with people across the aisle, he means 0:56:11.960 --> 0:56:16.120 like strum Thurman. Right when Lula is talking with people, 0:56:16.160 --> 0:56:18.799 He's talking with everyone, like he like literally everyone who 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:20.640 runs in the class. He's talking with random people at 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:23.400 like union halls and meetings, at picket lines, at like 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:27.000 soccer games, at bars. And because he spends all of 0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:29.080 this time talking people constantly, he gains this just like 0:56:29.120 --> 0:56:34.520 incredible ability to read crowds and like Taylor message messages 0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:37.280 for them and like figure out what sort of like 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:39.359 like what what sort of things will work with whatever 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:42.560 person is saying. And he gains this like absolutely incredible 0:56:42.600 --> 0:56:45.160 ability to sort of charm people, and it works with people, 0:56:45.160 --> 0:56:47.759 even on people who fucking hate him. Like there are 0:56:47.800 --> 0:56:50.560 there are like journalists who will spend literally their entire 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:53.200 careers trying to destroy him and who. But when they 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:54.880 asked about him, they're like, well, I mean like him 0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:57.080 with a person and he's really charming, like he's a 0:56:57.200 --> 0:57:01.560 nice guy. And but you know, so part part of 0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.200 what he's doing in this period this this is this 0:57:04.239 --> 0:57:07.160 is this is the late seventies um going into the earliest. 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:10.560 He's playing this like this very specific like game of 0:57:10.600 --> 0:57:15.160 respectability politics of like not directly criticizing the government and 0:57:15.200 --> 0:57:16.760 like so that there are these like there are these 0:57:16.760 --> 0:57:20.480 strikes that start happening because okay, so it turns out 0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:22.920 that the military government has been trying to get inflation, 0:57:23.440 --> 0:57:25.600 like the whole sort of economic system they've been doing 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:28.240 starts to fall apart, and inflation starts to come back, 0:57:28.280 --> 0:57:30.360 and they start doing these like measures of combat inflation. 0:57:31.080 --> 0:57:35.160 And the unions so originally no one believed them, but 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:38.200 the Union has like has like like they have like 0:57:38.200 --> 0:57:40.000 a think tank kind of right, They have like a 0:57:40.040 --> 0:57:42.360 social sort of like center with a bunch of sort 0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:45.560 of like sociologists and economists, and they figure out that 0:57:45.600 --> 0:57:47.440 the Union has been lying and that's why that the 0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:50.040 government has been lying about inflation, like how bad inflation is. 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:53.640 And then the I M. F in the late seventies 0:57:53.680 --> 0:57:56.040 confirms is that that that the military tatnership has been 0:57:56.080 --> 0:57:58.520 lying about how bad is inflation is by doing subsistical stuff. 0:57:58.760 --> 0:58:01.880 And this matters because they've been setting costs of living 0:58:01.880 --> 0:58:04.640 adjustments by a lower level of inflation. That that that 0:58:04.640 --> 0:58:07.760 that was actually happening. And this pisses everyone the funk 0:58:07.760 --> 0:58:10.440 off because they're like, literally the government is robbing us, 0:58:10.720 --> 0:58:13.560 like they've been lying behad bad inflation is like like 0:58:13.680 --> 0:58:15.200 third and it's it's this is like this is like 0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:18.200 a thirty percent income drop right for these workers. And 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:21.439 this pisses everyone the funk off. And suddenly there's these 0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:24.480 massive like protests. There were like hundreds of thousands of people, 0:58:24.680 --> 0:58:26.040 like a hundred thousand people wi show up to a 0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:31.320 soccer stadium as part of a strike. Like but you know, 0:58:31.560 --> 0:58:34.080 Lula has to make sure that everyone doesn't get murdered, 0:58:34.120 --> 0:58:36.480 and so he does these things like he'll like he'll 0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:38.680 avoids directly criticizing the government. He has this whole thing 0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:40.920 about how like he wants togotiate directly with the employers. 0:58:41.320 --> 0:58:43.440 He like kicks out like left to student groups. You 0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:45.560 are like trying to like distribute like communist students, you're 0:58:45.560 --> 0:58:48.120 like trying to distribute pampas at the rallies because he's 0:58:48.120 --> 0:58:50.200 trying to make sure that the strikers aren't seen as 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:53.240 like communist subversives and instead is sort of like they're 0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:57.760 seen as like good, upstanding, hard working citizens. And yeah, 0:58:57.800 --> 0:59:01.680 here's here's from the book of Given the diverse outlooks. 0:59:01.840 --> 0:59:05.360 Lula represented himself as a thoughtful, righteous man who disparaged 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:10.000 riotous behavior as unworthy and counterproductive like all honest workers. 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:12.640 He called for the strikers to be disciplined and counseled 0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:16.280 against classes with the police. He continually frames their fight 0:59:16.320 --> 0:59:18.920 as one with the companies, not the government or the policeman. 0:59:19.680 --> 0:59:23.160 And this like works because any more radical action probably 0:59:23.240 --> 0:59:24.960 is going to get everyone killed. And I mean like 0:59:25.040 --> 0:59:27.120 that when it's actually going on, there's like like they're 0:59:27.120 --> 0:59:33.480 they're getting buzzed by helicopters. There's like fucking army trucks everywhere. Um, 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:35.760 but you know, he manages not to get everyone killed. 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:37.880 And the result of this is that Lula immediately becomes 0:59:37.880 --> 0:59:40.920 the most famous worker in Brazil. He's like on TV, 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:46.040 he's leading strikes everywhere, Like there's these massive rallies, and 0:59:46.160 --> 0:59:48.480 you know, there's some really like there's some really like 0:59:48.520 --> 0:59:51.080 genuinely adorable stuff that's happening, where like when he's giving 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:52.880 his first speech to one of these rallies, it's like 0:59:52.920 --> 0:59:56.040 it's fucking raining. The soccer stadium is just mud, Like 0:59:56.080 --> 0:59:58.320 his podium is literally sinking into the bodies. He's trying 0:59:58.320 --> 0:59:59.800 to speak, and this is like the first time he's 0:59:59.800 --> 1:00:02.320 that are the crowd this loud? And he's nervous and 1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:04.840 people start leaving and they're doing this. One of every 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:07.040 things I learned about this is how old, how old 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:09.560 the crowd mike is. So they're doing this thing that 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:11.120 becomes own as the crowd mike, where like you don't 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:12.960 have a microphone or you can't reach every one, so 1:00:13.120 --> 1:00:15.440 each so okay, So some of the speaker says like 1:00:15.760 --> 1:00:18.320 a sentence and then each person in the crowd says 1:00:18.320 --> 1:00:19.880 a sentence and it just sort of moves back through 1:00:19.920 --> 1:00:23.200 the crowd up from everyone repeating it. And she's trying 1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:24.920 to give the speech is not going great, and like 1:00:24.960 --> 1:00:28.840 the workers in the front row start like yelling like, hey, 1:00:28.960 --> 1:00:31.120 you can do this, Lula, don't worry, you got this, 1:00:31.160 --> 1:00:33.680 And then he like and then and then this is 1:00:33.680 --> 1:00:37.040 like absolutely adorable moment and then he sort of like 1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:39.840 like you know, gets better at it, and like by 1:00:39.920 --> 1:00:43.320 like the second one of these like people are just 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:46.280 like in love with him. He is unbelievably popular, refusing 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:50.600 an incredible speaker. He's like you know, and it's very easy. 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:52.880 And you see writing about this at the time that 1:00:52.880 --> 1:00:55.200 are like that look at him and are like, well, 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:57.400 this guy like this guy is literally like people people 1:00:57.440 --> 1:00:59.400 are like calling him literally the messiah of the working 1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:01.080 class right, Like this is the kind of sort of 1:01:01.120 --> 1:01:05.400 like like a claim that he has. Like there are 1:01:05.240 --> 1:01:08.240 they're after one of his speeches, like the entire crowd 1:01:08.320 --> 1:01:10.680 literally carries him on their shoulders from one end of 1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:14.200 the soccer stadium to the other, Like there are like 1:01:14.200 --> 1:01:17.080 like there there there are people like walking on stage 1:01:17.080 --> 1:01:19.720 and calling him like father and saying him Mary's like 1:01:19.760 --> 1:01:23.400 it's it's fucking wild um, but you know, but like 1:01:23.480 --> 1:01:25.320 and it's and like when when when when like sort 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:27.480 of rich and educated people look at this, They're like, oh, 1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:30.400 these people are like blindly obedient to him. They're like 1:01:30.480 --> 1:01:33.680 they have this client patient relationship. He's like manipulating the 1:01:33.760 --> 1:01:36.120 masses and that's not what's happening like that, that's just 1:01:36.120 --> 1:01:38.320 just just not what's happening. Like he actually, like the 1:01:38.440 --> 1:01:41.600 union votes against him like a couple of times, like 1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:44.240 because because she's she's trying to do negotiations, right, and 1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:46.920 there's there's a there's this thing where if I'm understanding 1:01:47.000 --> 1:01:49.600 the story right, I think what happened is that he's 1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:52.640 trying to like negotiate like people coming back to works, 1:01:52.640 --> 1:01:54.720 negotiations can continue. It's like a show of good faith 1:01:54.800 --> 1:01:57.280 or whatever, and the unions like, funck no, we're not 1:01:57.320 --> 1:01:59.520 going back to work, and just like votes him down 1:02:00.520 --> 1:02:02.160 and so like like this kind of stuff happens right 1:02:02.160 --> 1:02:04.160 like that, you know, like people respect him enormously and 1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:07.440 he he is like literally in some sense, he's like 1:02:07.480 --> 1:02:09.640 the avatar of the industrial working class. Like working class 1:02:09.640 --> 1:02:12.760 people look at him and like they see themselves in him, 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:15.439 and they see they see the power that he's able 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:17.040 to sort of how many people he's around there, and 1:02:17.040 --> 1:02:18.840 they're like, oh, ship, the union is strong, Like we 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:21.800 are strong. We can actually sort of fight back. But 1:02:21.920 --> 1:02:26.080 it's not like a sort of client patront thing. He's 1:02:26.200 --> 1:02:28.480 it's just like he's at the head of a worker's 1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:31.400 movement that is a force in and of itself and 1:02:31.440 --> 1:02:33.560 has its own agency and capacity to act, and Lula 1:02:33.640 --> 1:02:36.080 has to like negotiate with that and like he has 1:02:36.120 --> 1:02:38.520 to sort of like rebuild their trust after he you know, 1:02:38.640 --> 1:02:40.720 is taking a sort of more moderate line. He he 1:02:40.760 --> 1:02:44.320 eventually gets like arrested in nineteen eighty, although he gets 1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:47.360 released after like a month, and from there he gets 1:02:47.400 --> 1:02:50.120 to work founding like every important leftist organization like the 1:02:50.200 --> 1:02:53.560 last forty years. Um So in aitte eighty he's one 1:02:53.600 --> 1:02:56.760 of the people who found the Workers Party. In eighty three, 1:02:56.800 --> 1:03:00.120 he founds the CUT or to the English translation of it, 1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:02.880 it's a unified Workers Central, which like to this day 1:03:03.120 --> 1:03:06.000 is Brazil's like national trade Union Center. Like it's like 1:03:06.040 --> 1:03:08.000 it's like their big union federation. And this is illegal 1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:10.000 at the time, but you just like fuck it, we're 1:03:10.000 --> 1:03:13.240 doing anyways. Like these people are losing the the the 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:18.280 tatorship losing control. Um in the CUT like plays a 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:21.360 huge role in how the dictatorship loses power. Um so 1:03:21.440 --> 1:03:24.120 does the PT did something that Like the PT, the 1:03:24.160 --> 1:03:26.240 PT like as a party are powerful enough that like 1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:30.480 they were involved in drafting the constitution. He's there for 1:03:30.520 --> 1:03:32.080 the founding the land this workers movement, which is a 1:03:32.080 --> 1:03:33.920 social movement that like sees his land that's not being 1:03:34.000 --> 1:03:36.040 used in leadership, is it the workers. He's heavily involved 1:03:36.040 --> 1:03:37.640 in the campaign to start of force the military out 1:03:37.640 --> 1:03:40.720 of power and you know as a military tatorship like 1:03:40.920 --> 1:03:43.640 kind of falls apart in democracy, like kind of like 1:03:43.680 --> 1:03:47.200 fully returns to Brazil and nine he goes like full 1:03:47.280 --> 1:03:53.880 inte electoral politics. But the problem is that like he's 1:03:53.880 --> 1:03:58.439 he's he's kind of too early for his politics. Um. 1:03:58.600 --> 1:04:02.080 He he spends like the entire nineties just like getting 1:04:02.120 --> 1:04:04.320 his ass handed to him in elections over and over again. 1:04:05.880 --> 1:04:07.440 And part of what's happening, you know, part of but 1:04:07.480 --> 1:04:09.560 part of literally what he's doing in the nineties is rebuilt. 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:11.960 It's like he's like rebuilding the entire Latin American left, 1:04:12.000 --> 1:04:14.040 like from ground zero after the fall of the Berlin 1:04:14.040 --> 1:04:16.120 Wall Wall in the sort of like global defeated left 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:18.840 in the eighties. Um. He's one of the founders of 1:04:18.920 --> 1:04:22.160 the Foremost of South Paulo, which is the first of 1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:24.200 this series, a sort of like meetings of leftists in 1:04:24.280 --> 1:04:26.080 Latin America and the Caribbean, which is trying to figure 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:28.800 out like okay, like hey, what what what is socialism 1:04:28.920 --> 1:04:33.080 now that like the Berlin Wall is down and everything 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:36.680 is sort of going to ship and in that's a 1:04:36.840 --> 1:04:40.640 really bleak prospect. Like neoliberalism is completely ascended. Nationalism has 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:44.600 destroyed socialism, Like every sort of former social states following apart, 1:04:44.680 --> 1:04:47.760 like capitalist are running rapping across the globe, like literally, 1:04:48.200 --> 1:04:51.600 like entire communist parties are just like disbanding and all 1:04:51.640 --> 1:04:54.840 of the sort of cadre are becoming liberals. But you know, 1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:56.640 as the nineties go on and people actually have to 1:04:56.680 --> 1:05:00.200 sort of like live under this, they increasingly realize say, 1:05:00.200 --> 1:05:03.200 it sucks ass and that I you know what what 1:05:03.320 --> 1:05:05.400 living under Nail Elizabism means is like I m F 1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:08.960 structural adjustments and like like the economy, like there there's 1:05:08.960 --> 1:05:11.560 there's the Asian market collapse. There's a bunch of other 1:05:11.640 --> 1:05:15.800 market collapses. And you know, as after the epetits to 1:05:15.840 --> 1:05:18.200 sort of go on the like the first like part 1:05:18.280 --> 1:05:19.880 of the left to really go on the offensive after 1:05:19.920 --> 1:05:22.800 their uprising in the left kind of starts to put 1:05:22.880 --> 1:05:26.320 usself back together. And this left, like I I think, 1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:28.320 like this version of left it's kind of dead now. 1:05:28.760 --> 1:05:32.000 But like I think there are people who are old 1:05:32.040 --> 1:05:34.240 enough to remember it or like remember sort of like 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:36.600 what it used to be. Like the slogan of this 1:05:36.640 --> 1:05:38.520 sort of whole like like left, Like one of their 1:05:38.520 --> 1:05:41.160 big slogans is another world as Possible, which is sort 1:05:41.160 --> 1:05:44.280 of like the anti, like the anti it's a response 1:05:44.320 --> 1:05:46.919 to like thatchers there is no alternative. It's like another 1:05:46.960 --> 1:05:48.560 world as possible. Is this is the sort of like 1:05:48.600 --> 1:05:50.640 alter globalization left, Like this is a left that does 1:05:50.680 --> 1:05:53.840 the Battle of Seattle, and Lula is there for like 1:05:53.880 --> 1:05:55.840 all of it, Like after Seattle, he helped after the 1:05:55.840 --> 1:05:58.040 Battle of Seattle, like he helps found the World Social Forum, 1:05:58.080 --> 1:06:00.000 which is just like giant meeting place for like internet 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:04.800 social movements. Um. And you know, and so you know, 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:06.600 through through this whole period, like the Left is sort 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.920 of gathering is strength everywhere like well okay in Latin America. 1:06:09.920 --> 1:06:12.200 And also like I mean, it isn't a lot of 1:06:12.200 --> 1:06:16.200 places right like in India. Um, it's like Indonesia, there's 1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:18.439 always in the US, although the US has this problem 1:06:18.480 --> 1:06:22.760 that the lefton happens and yeah that's a ship show. Yeah, 1:06:22.840 --> 1:06:27.920 it's amazing how that this movement existed almost everywhere else 1:06:28.800 --> 1:06:32.400 but not to my knowledge is as significantly here. Yeah, well, 1:06:32.440 --> 1:06:34.440 I mean we we had we we had Seattle, right, 1:06:34.480 --> 1:06:37.320 but then when that levn't happened, that the unions like 1:06:37.400 --> 1:06:40.320 pulled out of doing any direct action ship and then 1:06:41.040 --> 1:06:42.680 kind everything kind of got eight by the the anti 1:06:42.720 --> 1:06:47.640 war movement, which and then and then the Green Scare. Yeah, 1:06:47.800 --> 1:06:51.560 then that led to ad Busters doing and the stuff 1:06:51.600 --> 1:06:56.600 that occupied Wall Street and then yeah, and that's okay. 1:06:56.840 --> 1:06:58.440 I would say this. I think there's I think there's 1:06:58.480 --> 1:07:00.400 a there's a break here, Like I think I think 1:07:00.840 --> 1:07:04.040 occupy is when that kind of politics died, because when 1:07:04.040 --> 1:07:07.200 when occupies there under And this is the sort of 1:07:07.240 --> 1:07:09.000 iron of this and we'll get you next episode, is that, 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:13.040 like you could, there's a good argument that the place 1:07:13.080 --> 1:07:15.640 that that politics actually died was in Brazil when the 1:07:15.640 --> 1:07:19.760 Workers Party fucking like tear gas and rubber bulleted the 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:22.000 absolute ship out of a bunch of protesters who had 1:07:22.040 --> 1:07:24.240 been who were like the Brazilian wave of sort of 1:07:24.240 --> 1:07:26.720 like that series of protests, and they crushed the ship 1:07:26.800 --> 1:07:29.000 out of them. It is horrible, Like this is one 1:07:29.040 --> 1:07:30.360 of this is like one of like my foundationals and 1:07:30.440 --> 1:07:34.080 political memories is like fucking tanks rolling down the street, 1:07:34.120 --> 1:07:36.919 people shooting rubber bullets at people like seven year olds 1:07:36.920 --> 1:07:40.200 getting tear gassed. It is a it is a fucking 1:07:40.200 --> 1:07:42.880 ship show. But and and two thousand too, like you know, 1:07:43.320 --> 1:07:44.880 it's not that we have we haven't gotten there yet. 1:07:44.880 --> 1:07:47.360 Like even the sort of like most cynical trotsky I 1:07:47.520 --> 1:07:50.520 like can't imagine the fucking pig rolling tanks through the favelas, 1:07:50.520 --> 1:07:52.000 which is what they're gonna be doing in twelve years. 1:07:52.960 --> 1:07:55.840 And Britain we had that was when I can't requit 1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:58.280 re member when Tony Black there's nightty seven, But like 1:07:58.640 --> 1:08:02.360 the British Tony Black, right like represented this other vision 1:08:02.400 --> 1:08:04.760 for the last well and everything is like people like 1:08:05.360 --> 1:08:06.840 like one of the thoset everything. That's like people talk 1:08:06.880 --> 1:08:08.800 about Obama as being like the end of the same wave, 1:08:08.880 --> 1:08:11.120 except Obama is sort of like to like even more 1:08:11.200 --> 1:08:12.880 so than any of the other politicians. What we're talking 1:08:12.880 --> 1:08:15.000 about is sort of like recuperation of this right, Like 1:08:15.680 --> 1:08:17.519 he's the guy who takes out energy and is like yeah, 1:08:17.560 --> 1:08:21.320 and and and okay, so we're we're gonna get into 1:08:21.439 --> 1:08:24.719 like the negative side of all of this ship next episode. 1:08:24.760 --> 1:08:27.759 But like in some sense Lula does play a similar 1:08:27.840 --> 1:08:30.320 role in Brazil, and we will get there, but right now, 1:08:30.560 --> 1:08:32.720 you know, Okay, So there's another part of this that 1:08:34.280 --> 1:08:37.000 like doesn't get talked about that much, which is that 1:08:37.320 --> 1:08:41.479 in the nearly two thousand's in Latin America, it's not 1:08:41.640 --> 1:08:43.439 just that like the left is winning elections, Like there 1:08:43.439 --> 1:08:47.080 are open revolutions going on, Like I mean, there's there's 1:08:47.160 --> 1:08:50.960 there's a bunch of them. There's a like like arguably 1:08:51.080 --> 1:08:55.720 like the last communist revolution like ever happens in uh 1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:58.120 like the last sort of like the last gas of 1:08:58.120 --> 1:09:00.720 the classical workers whom that happens in Argentina in twous one, 1:09:00.720 --> 1:09:02.360 there's this huge revolt against the I M F and 1:09:02.400 --> 1:09:05.000 Austarian Like this is this is the last time like 1:09:05.640 --> 1:09:08.880 in world history that like people occupy factories and then 1:09:08.920 --> 1:09:11.960 attempt to like like take them over and use them 1:09:12.000 --> 1:09:13.960 as a way of seizing the metic production. People occupy 1:09:14.000 --> 1:09:16.160 factories in Bosnian has A Go VI and like fourteen. 1:09:16.240 --> 1:09:20.760 But like by that point, like like those guys are 1:09:20.760 --> 1:09:23.320 occupying factories and then having like occupy meetings in them, 1:09:23.520 --> 1:09:26.679 they're not like attempting to sort of like sees production. Yeah, 1:09:27.000 --> 1:09:29.160 but you know, like like these there's are real revolutions, right, 1:09:29.320 --> 1:09:32.320 Like there's there's there's there's a coup against Hugo Travis 1:09:32.400 --> 1:09:36.080 that gets overturned by another popular revolution. Um there's the 1:09:36.160 --> 1:09:38.600 water and gas wars in Bolivia, which culminate in like 1:09:39.520 --> 1:09:44.800 literally deep like the capital is like entirely blockaded off 1:09:44.960 --> 1:09:47.240 from the rest of the country and surrounded by roadblocks 1:09:47.280 --> 1:09:50.840 and the like five. The government is like fucking imploding. 1:09:50.880 --> 1:09:53.960 The military has fallen apart, like you know, like they 1:09:54.160 --> 1:09:56.040 like and this this is this is this is the 1:09:56.080 --> 1:09:58.320 sort of chain of events that brings even rallies into power, 1:09:58.400 --> 1:10:02.440 but like they very nearly destroyed the entire believing governments. 1:10:03.320 --> 1:10:05.240 The cycle sort of ends with the Wahaka uprising in 1:10:05.240 --> 1:10:08.439 two thousand and six. Were like like the people of 1:10:08.520 --> 1:10:12.280 Wahaka just fucking take the city and hold it for 1:10:12.520 --> 1:10:15.160 like like a few months and like running through the 1:10:15.200 --> 1:10:17.880 democratic assemblies and then like the army shows up and 1:10:17.960 --> 1:10:20.360 they get yeah. But like you know, like like there 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:24.400 there is a point like that that was like I think, 1:10:24.640 --> 1:10:27.960 like like in my lifetime, like the workers of a 1:10:28.160 --> 1:10:32.400 city fucking just took it over. This this stuff that 1:10:32.479 --> 1:10:34.760 like you know, like I think now we're we kind 1:10:34.760 --> 1:10:36.400 of like we have problems, Like I think most people 1:10:36.400 --> 1:10:38.080 have sort of forgotten about this stuff like this, this 1:10:38.439 --> 1:10:41.120 was a moment in which like, like revolution and the 1:10:41.120 --> 1:10:45.040 destruction of capitalism was on the table. Yeah, and like 1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:47.920 I did a lot of it. I'm not sure I 1:10:48.040 --> 1:10:51.519 lived in Venezuela for some of this time briefly, but 1:10:52.439 --> 1:10:56.439 it felt very possible in a way that like it 1:10:56.560 --> 1:11:00.880 probably hasn't since, right, Like it was fast slating to see, like, 1:11:01.400 --> 1:11:04.400 and the cooperation between those countries was very real, right, 1:11:04.479 --> 1:11:07.800 Like obviously Cuban Cuban Cuban doctors are sucking everywhere, right 1:11:07.800 --> 1:11:10.520 if you travel resource saying there, But it was fascinating 1:11:10.560 --> 1:11:12.600 to see like people from here coming here and they 1:11:12.640 --> 1:11:15.519 think they had that Sal Paolo Forum right where they 1:11:15.560 --> 1:11:19.280 would where these ideas would be exchanged and it Yeah, 1:11:19.360 --> 1:11:22.559 and that was very formative for me. A genuinely felt 1:11:22.600 --> 1:11:25.040 like it was possible for something as a result of this, 1:11:25.200 --> 1:11:27.639 like Google ish I m F policy that we'd had 1:11:27.760 --> 1:11:29.920 for the previous twenty years. People like, no, funk this, 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:34.000 We're doing it our way and yet didn't tell Okay, 1:11:34.120 --> 1:11:36.360 but this is this is this is what's really weird 1:11:36.720 --> 1:11:40.439 about Lula, because Lula is running into dozen too, and 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:45.320 he's watching all of this happen, and his strategy, his 1:11:45.479 --> 1:11:48.439 response to this is basically the analysis because okay, so 1:11:48.520 --> 1:11:50.880 she spent the entire nineties lose running letters campaign and 1:11:50.960 --> 1:11:54.720 losing right, and his strategy in two dozen two is 1:11:54.760 --> 1:11:56.760 he's going to move the PT the Workers Party to 1:11:56.800 --> 1:11:59.400 the right, both of hers a messaging end in policy, 1:11:59.560 --> 1:12:02.000 so it's not to sort of like scare voters. And 1:12:02.360 --> 1:12:04.439 he finally convinces the rest of the PT to do 1:12:04.520 --> 1:12:06.920 something he's been advocating for for like decades, which is 1:12:06.960 --> 1:12:10.559 allying with sort of like liberal or conservative like non 1:12:10.680 --> 1:12:14.400 leftist parties, which they do in this election. And we're 1:12:14.439 --> 1:12:19.040 going to see how that goes later because oh boy, 1:12:19.840 --> 1:12:22.320 but you know, okay, so like why why why why 1:12:22.400 --> 1:12:24.840 are they sort of doing this. There's a few reasons. 1:12:24.920 --> 1:12:27.400 Partially it's because Lula has been like losing elections and 1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:29.679 being like, okay, we have to do something different. Partially 1:12:29.760 --> 1:12:32.679 it's because the PC is a product of the collapse 1:12:32.920 --> 1:12:38.439 of like, okay, the PT like in the two thousands, 1:12:38.680 --> 1:12:42.479 like the base that had formed that party is basically collapsed, 1:12:42.560 --> 1:12:46.160 right that the PT is like it it's core constituencies 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:49.519 are sort of like leftist groups. There's like like left 1:12:49.560 --> 1:12:53.559 wing Catholic groups and the sort of like the giant 1:12:53.600 --> 1:12:56.160 sort of like trade union stuff that, like the giant 1:12:56.200 --> 1:12:57.600 workers troupment that Lula is a part of, but but 1:12:57.680 --> 1:13:01.639 he doesn't too, Like the Catholic Church has swung back 1:13:01.680 --> 1:13:03.200 to the right. Like the sort of the sort of 1:13:03.280 --> 1:13:05.639 left Catholic people are on the retreat. There's very few 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:10.120 of them left. Um, there's what we're gonna talking about 1:13:10.120 --> 1:13:12.040 this more later. But the sort of giant industrial unions 1:13:12.080 --> 1:13:14.880 that like Lula have been ahead of like and that 1:13:15.080 --> 1:13:17.120 you know, Lula's career and the PT itself comes from, 1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:19.720 have been shattered by sort of like the by by 1:13:19.800 --> 1:13:22.519 the industrialization and the collapse and sort of Brazil's industrial economy. 1:13:23.280 --> 1:13:25.280 And the product of this is that with without its 1:13:25.280 --> 1:13:28.280 sort of social basis, like Lula, KU's losing elections. So 1:13:28.840 --> 1:13:31.600 he goes, okay, so it's solution to this. And the 1:13:31.960 --> 1:13:35.680 PC understands this right, Like they're they're aware of the 1:13:35.760 --> 1:13:37.400 fact that like part of what's happening with them is 1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:40.760 that like they've they've you know, they're they're losing parts 1:13:40.800 --> 1:13:42.840 of their working class base because that that working class 1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:45.880 literally doesn't exist anymore. They're gaining a bunch of sort 1:13:45.920 --> 1:13:49.920 of middle class like leftist activists, but they need to 1:13:50.000 --> 1:13:51.600 find a way to sort of broughten their appeal. And 1:13:51.680 --> 1:13:56.120 so like he promises, like openly gives us like speech 1:13:56.120 --> 1:13:58.160 about how he's not going to do like a rupture 1:13:58.240 --> 1:14:00.439 with the economy, which is what those party of compaigning 1:14:00.479 --> 1:14:03.080 on because you know, the ptr leftist right, the whole 1:14:03.080 --> 1:14:04.960 point of another world is possible is we don't have 1:14:05.000 --> 1:14:08.200 to deliver a capitalist anymore. Lula is like no, no, no, no, no, guys, 1:14:08.560 --> 1:14:10.760 hold on, hold on, I did I didn't mean that, like, 1:14:11.240 --> 1:14:13.760 we're not gonna do a rupture. And instead what Lula 1:14:13.840 --> 1:14:17.960 does is pledges to and like stays in the Brazil's 1:14:17.960 --> 1:14:20.840 commitments to the i m F, including like fucking insane 1:14:20.920 --> 1:14:25.120 ship like maintaining primary budget surpluses, which is nuts, and 1:14:25.400 --> 1:14:27.760 you know, and he instead of like yeah, yeah, he 1:14:28.080 --> 1:14:30.240 stays in the end. And you know, so Argentina famously, 1:14:30.240 --> 1:14:32.160 like in Argentina, solution to the sort of uprisings that 1:14:32.200 --> 1:14:33.800 are happening is that they default on our death in 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:34.960 the I m F. And they're like fuck, you we're 1:14:34.960 --> 1:14:38.679 not paying, and Lula's like, now we're paying. Like it's fine, 1:14:38.800 --> 1:14:41.839 We'll just keep paying it. And like the PT itself 1:14:42.000 --> 1:14:45.240 is like what the funk is going on? Like what 1:14:45.439 --> 1:14:48.360 what is happening here? Why is this happening here? Like 1:14:48.640 --> 1:14:51.120 why why is he doing this? And you know, Lula 1:14:51.200 --> 1:14:52.880 is just like, well, okay, we need we need to 1:14:52.920 --> 1:14:54.360 take power, we need to do this, take power, and 1:14:54.439 --> 1:14:56.759 so we does. And weirdly, in the middle of this cycle, 1:14:57.520 --> 1:15:01.000 sort of like the resurrection of the left, he's running 1:15:01.479 --> 1:15:05.240 increasingly to the right. And you know, okay. Part of 1:15:05.280 --> 1:15:07.560 what's happening here is that there's an inherent problem that 1:15:07.640 --> 1:15:10.280 leftist governments have when they take over the state, especially 1:15:10.720 --> 1:15:12.840 when they take over a capitalist state by winning an election, 1:15:12.920 --> 1:15:15.439 which is that if you are in control of the government, right, 1:15:15.439 --> 1:15:17.080 if you control the state, your job is now to 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:20.920 keep the economy running. And in theory this isn't incompatible 1:15:20.960 --> 1:15:23.200 with leftist police. But if you stop, if you stop 1:15:23.240 --> 1:15:26.280 and think about what this actually means for a second, 1:15:27.080 --> 1:15:30.360 keeping the economy running means keeping the economy growing. An 1:15:30.400 --> 1:15:34.120 economic growth right means that capitalists have to keep making 1:15:34.200 --> 1:15:37.400 more money every year than they did last year like that. 1:15:37.479 --> 1:15:40.960 That's what economic growth is, right, And this is a 1:15:41.120 --> 1:15:44.960 real problem if you are a leftist taking power, because 1:15:45.560 --> 1:15:49.120 if you don't do this, you will a lose elections 1:15:49.280 --> 1:15:52.320 because regular people will get piste off because when capitalists 1:15:52.320 --> 1:15:55.320 don't make more money, they start firing people and be 1:15:55.720 --> 1:15:58.479 the bourgeoisie who only ever grudgingly accepts the left is 1:15:58.560 --> 1:16:00.280 sort of like a legitimate power in the first place. 1:16:01.439 --> 1:16:03.759 If you're if you're if they're if they're not getting 1:16:03.800 --> 1:16:07.720 more money every single year, they will overthrow you. And 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:12.519 you know, Lula knows this, right. But the solution to 1:16:14.240 --> 1:16:16.519 this problem that these they sort of like pink tie 1:16:16.600 --> 1:16:20.760 governments come to is basically to let a faction of 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:23.080 the sort of national portions either sort of national capitalist 1:16:23.080 --> 1:16:26.920 class of people who are like capitalists domestically like they 1:16:27.520 --> 1:16:29.120 let them into this product of sort of like not 1:16:29.280 --> 1:16:32.679 this nationalist developmental project. And so what this means essentially 1:16:32.920 --> 1:16:35.400 is you are like you are buying you are buying 1:16:35.479 --> 1:16:37.880 a section of the of the ruling class off right. 1:16:38.240 --> 1:16:40.240 You are giving them ass to state contracts. You're doing 1:16:40.280 --> 1:16:42.720 state investments in infrastructure that helps them like expand things 1:16:42.760 --> 1:16:45.080 like mining, so they can you know, take some of 1:16:45.120 --> 1:16:47.880 the profits from it. You're giving them preferential access to 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:50.040 government contracts and change, we sort of supporting you. And 1:16:50.280 --> 1:16:52.320 there's a lot of ways this can look like the 1:16:52.479 --> 1:16:54.559 m A s and Bolivia, for example, starts bringing these 1:16:54.560 --> 1:16:57.000 elits directly into the party with the sort of developmentalist 1:16:57.040 --> 1:17:00.160 faction UM. In Brazil, it looks like an ally into 1:17:00.240 --> 1:17:03.640 something called the Centro, which is like crow, sorry, my 1:17:03.880 --> 1:17:06.560 Portuguese is not good, um, which is this like this 1:17:06.640 --> 1:17:09.200 sort of like every present force in Brazilian politics, which 1:17:09.240 --> 1:17:12.240 is like the corruption faction. It's like this this series 1:17:12.280 --> 1:17:14.800 of sort of parties that are like kind of loosely knit, 1:17:15.000 --> 1:17:16.920 you kind of vote together, but you don't like they 1:17:16.960 --> 1:17:21.200 don't their parties nominally have ideology, but like their ideology 1:17:21.479 --> 1:17:24.479 is I am I am like a local political like 1:17:24.840 --> 1:17:27.120 powerful political person, and you are going to pay me 1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:29.040 or you will not be able to pass literally any 1:17:29.120 --> 1:17:34.000 bill ever. And okay, so they have to form an 1:17:34.040 --> 1:17:36.240 alliance with sort of these parties. And the other thing 1:17:36.280 --> 1:17:38.360 they start doing is that they are just literally but 1:17:38.600 --> 1:17:42.479 like they just literally start buying people off. And this 1:17:42.680 --> 1:17:45.000 leads to sort of like a bunch of corruption scandals 1:17:45.040 --> 1:17:48.679 that we're gonna get you next episode. Um, but will 1:17:48.800 --> 1:17:52.439 While Lula is in office, this seems like it's working 1:17:52.520 --> 1:17:56.479 really well. Um, He's able to sort of pay off 1:17:56.479 --> 1:17:59.120 the bourgeoisie and fund these social welfare programs for the 1:17:59.160 --> 1:18:02.280 Brazilian working class. And this has a massive impact, right 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:05.000 Like this list something like twenty million people out of poverty. 1:18:05.360 --> 1:18:09.080 And okay and I, I and other people will argue 1:18:09.080 --> 1:18:10.800 about what it means to like lift people out of 1:18:10.840 --> 1:18:13.960 poverty and how poor they still are, but you know, 1:18:14.080 --> 1:18:15.840 it is true. These people have a massive increase in 1:18:15.920 --> 1:18:18.840 quality of life, like people are getting running water in 1:18:18.920 --> 1:18:21.040 their homes for the first time, like people are having 1:18:21.120 --> 1:18:26.080 electricity for the first time. Um, it's a's also with 1:18:26.160 --> 1:18:29.040 pointing out that Lula, who is white, spends a fucking 1:18:29.240 --> 1:18:32.240 ship ton of time fighting like fighting against racism and 1:18:32.320 --> 1:18:35.160 fighting for educational job opportunities for black people, even though okay, 1:18:35.320 --> 1:18:37.400 there's like an asterisk next to that that has to 1:18:37.439 --> 1:18:43.120 do with the police. That yeah, it's it's fucking oh boy, 1:18:43.200 --> 1:18:46.920 it is worse than you can possibly imagine. Um, who 1:18:48.800 --> 1:18:50.960 you know, like he's trying to end hunger. He has 1:18:51.000 --> 1:18:53.320 this very famous program called the Bosa Familia, which is 1:18:53.360 --> 1:18:55.040 basically like if you're pouring off and you agree to 1:18:55.080 --> 1:18:56.880 send your kids to school and get the vaccinating, like 1:18:56.920 --> 1:18:59.200 the government will just give you money. And you know 1:18:59.320 --> 1:19:01.400 there's also a Mike Roland part of this, which is 1:19:02.000 --> 1:19:05.559 my dot dot dot. Uh, this won't go oh yeah, 1:19:06.680 --> 1:19:10.240 nothing bad will happen from the Brazilian government attempting to 1:19:10.280 --> 1:19:13.360 get a bunch of people to take micro loans. Um, this, 1:19:13.520 --> 1:19:17.160 this does not lead us into fascism at all. But 1:19:17.560 --> 1:19:21.559 you know, okay, like this works, right, Lula is able 1:19:21.600 --> 1:19:23.920 to grow the economy, like Brazil's economic growth this periods 1:19:23.920 --> 1:19:26.639 like seven percent, which is sucking nuts, like year on year. 1:19:27.320 --> 1:19:29.880 Um he leaves office, was I've seen it, ultimately said, 1:19:29.920 --> 1:19:32.880 it's like an eighty five or ninety rating. He's unbelievably 1:19:32.920 --> 1:19:38.920 popular and you know, so every everything like looks good 1:19:39.280 --> 1:19:42.320 right kind of From inside Brazil, it looks like the 1:19:42.360 --> 1:19:46.120 PT has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of everyone. They've 1:19:46.200 --> 1:19:49.280 been like they've been a sucessful social democratic party and 1:19:49.360 --> 1:19:51.439 that they've lifted amongst people out of poverty. There's like 1:19:51.600 --> 1:19:55.639 people who are alive because like who are alive today 1:19:55.720 --> 1:19:57.800 who would not be because the PT was in power, 1:19:58.040 --> 1:20:02.040 right and and you know, like there are people who 1:20:02.080 --> 1:20:04.320 don't starve, there are people who don't go hungry, there 1:20:04.360 --> 1:20:07.760 are people who have opportunities, like educational opportunities to opportunity 1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:10.360 too themsels the first time ever. And it's a successful 1:20:10.360 --> 1:20:12.720 capitalist government too, because again seven percent year round your growth, 1:20:12.840 --> 1:20:14.800 right like this is fucking nuts, like this is this 1:20:14.840 --> 1:20:16.840 is a kind of economic growth that is like unimaginable 1:20:17.479 --> 1:20:22.280 in in most parts of the world. However, Comma, if 1:20:22.360 --> 1:20:25.800 this at all actually worked, we wouldn't be here right 1:20:25.880 --> 1:20:30.960 now with I, you know, the fascist president going into 1:20:31.160 --> 1:20:35.840 like hiding. And so next episodes, you know, Mark, I've 1:20:35.840 --> 1:20:37.720 been to I've been talking about grave diggers sort of 1:20:37.840 --> 1:20:39.760 this episode right there's there's a famous part of the 1:20:39.760 --> 1:20:42.160 Communist manifesto Ory Talks where where Marks talks about like 1:20:42.680 --> 1:20:46.120 capital like capitals abroducing its own grave diggers. And capitalism 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:48.280 has never done that, right like like to to to 1:20:48.479 --> 1:20:50.840 this day right now, capitalism has as yet to produce 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:54.360 his own grave diggers. Social democracy has Bruce's own grave diggers. 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:56.760 And every single fucking country anyone's ever done it. And 1:20:57.040 --> 1:20:59.160 the next episode, in next episode, we're going to watch 1:20:59.200 --> 1:21:01.240 the pt Bruce's own grave diggers, and we're going to 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:04.160 watch the attempt to bury Louise and Nascia, Lula da 1:21:04.200 --> 1:21:06.200 Silva and the rest of the Brazilian working class of live. 1:21:07.200 --> 1:21:10.160 Oh good, you going to do a Bolsonara update because 1:21:10.160 --> 1:21:14.440 he's apparently left the building. Oh shit, okay, yeah, Bolsonara 1:21:14.520 --> 1:21:17.960 upweate Bolsonara has left the building. Hold on breaking breaking news. 1:21:19.400 --> 1:21:22.479 He left the palace finally, Yeah, in a convoy of 1:21:22.600 --> 1:21:26.880 black SUVs. Ope, he's expected to break the silence. Yeah, 1:21:27.160 --> 1:21:30.599 so I'm looking at Benjamin Fogel, who's pretty good on this. Yeah, 1:21:30.640 --> 1:21:33.480 he's expected to break the silence, but not to congratulate 1:21:33.600 --> 1:21:38.320 Lula on winning. Jesus Christ, is I have lost? Good bye? Okay? 1:21:38.479 --> 1:21:43.160 So yeah, there might be a if. I don't know 1:21:43.240 --> 1:21:44.760 what we're gonna do, if there's a coup in between 1:21:44.800 --> 1:21:48.880 in between this episode and the next episode, hopefully not. 1:21:49.160 --> 1:21:50.680 I don't know. I mean, I want one thing that, 1:21:50.840 --> 1:21:52.880 like I will say and that I think we were 1:21:52.920 --> 1:21:54.320 gonn talking a bit about next episode. Is it like 1:21:55.439 --> 1:21:58.960 part of what's happening right now that's very important is 1:21:59.120 --> 1:22:03.559 that Biden is an office in the US. And mean, Okay, 1:22:03.600 --> 1:22:05.920 So the Brazilian military is a long history of doing cous, 1:22:06.400 --> 1:22:08.960 but usually when they're doing coups, they're doing cous with 1:22:09.120 --> 1:22:12.280 the backing of the US government and Biden like just 1:22:12.400 --> 1:22:16.560 on a personal level fucking hates Bulsonaro, and there is 1:22:16.600 --> 1:22:18.640 a there was a very real chance that this is 1:22:18.680 --> 1:22:20.679 a significant factor in why we haven't seen a coup. 1:22:21.200 --> 1:22:23.800 Is literally the president of the United States personally does 1:22:23.880 --> 1:22:26.920 not like the vast president of Brazil. And this is 1:22:26.960 --> 1:22:31.000 a fucking batshit state of affairs, right, Like, the fact 1:22:31.080 --> 1:22:34.280 that like the like personal inclinations of the President of 1:22:34.280 --> 1:22:36.479 the United States has as much of an impact on 1:22:36.880 --> 1:22:40.680 like the politics of an entire country is nuts. And 1:22:40.800 --> 1:22:43.439 this happened in the other direction for a while, right, 1:22:43.560 --> 1:22:47.240 Like it's I guess not personally, just the personal inclination 1:22:47.280 --> 1:22:51.679 of the president in that case. Yeah, well there's weird 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:55.599 things here too, because like, like Lulu was reirdly friendly 1:22:55.680 --> 1:22:58.519 with it with Bush, which I think is why part 1:22:58.560 --> 1:23:01.040 of why he never liked, never tried to cut him, 1:23:03.120 --> 1:23:08.920 who called him the devil? Yeah because friends, Right, But 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:13.120 Travis gives the speech about how like everyone has the 1:23:13.200 --> 1:23:15.760 road like at the at the social form gives how 1:23:15.760 --> 1:23:19.479 everyone's existing in their own like conditions. So you can't expect, like, 1:23:19.760 --> 1:23:21.680 you know, you can't expect Lula to be Travis, you 1:23:21.680 --> 1:23:26.559 can't expect Chaves to be Castro like stuff like that. Yeah, 1:23:26.640 --> 1:23:31.560 but it's it's weird. Hopefully Willsonarow fucking leaves office. If not, 1:23:32.200 --> 1:23:35.519 I don't know. But either way, I don't know. Things 1:23:35.600 --> 1:23:41.920 are the history of Brazil dream this period is also 1:23:42.000 --> 1:23:43.760 kind of bleak, but after this period is way the 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:47.320 funk bleaker. So yeah, we're gonna talk about that tomorrow, 1:23:47.680 --> 1:24:08.479 and yeah, we'll update you. If there is a couph 1:24:08.920 --> 1:24:12.320 God is dead and the woke left have killed him, 1:24:12.640 --> 1:24:15.920 Welcome to it could happen here the podcast where we 1:24:16.040 --> 1:24:20.680 celebrate the destruction of JayR Bolsonaro and the concept of 1:24:20.800 --> 1:24:24.799 Christianity and the human soul, both of which happened recently 1:24:25.280 --> 1:24:29.120 in Brazil. As as far as I understand from skimming 1:24:29.200 --> 1:24:33.719 the news on Twitter. Um, how's everybody else doing today? 1:24:36.280 --> 1:24:39.760 Utterly exhausted? But you know, such as such as such 1:24:39.800 --> 1:24:45.240 as such as the world without Christ destroyed. Yeah, that's 1:24:45.280 --> 1:24:49.120 what that's what the woke mob did. Speaking of woke mobs, 1:24:50.000 --> 1:24:51.760 what are we what are we doing? Today. What are 1:24:51.800 --> 1:24:55.439 we talking about? We are talking more about the Brazilian elections. 1:24:55.760 --> 1:24:59.200 I guess we should start with our with our perennial 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:02.240 update of about what seems to be happening there right now. 1:25:02.920 --> 1:25:08.799 So okay, currently is what eleven am specific time recording 1:25:08.880 --> 1:25:13.840 this on? Yeah that sounds right, Yeah, yeah that one. 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:17.479 So as of right now, Bolson like still so he 1:25:17.640 --> 1:25:25.280 he's appeared, but he still hasn't conceded the election. Um hasn't. Yeah, 1:25:25.640 --> 1:25:30.040 And okay, so the other thing that's been going on 1:25:30.479 --> 1:25:32.600 is that there's been Okay, one of the sort of 1:25:32.640 --> 1:25:36.880 perennial Boston Bolson row things is that he has a 1:25:36.960 --> 1:25:39.240 bunch of support among a bunch of sort of like 1:25:40.560 --> 1:25:42.759 like a bunch of different sort of like kinds of truckers. 1:25:43.439 --> 1:25:45.400 And there's been a bunch of this before. He's been 1:25:45.400 --> 1:25:49.400 setting up a bunch of barricades. I okay, from from 1:25:49.479 --> 1:25:53.320 talking to people on the ground and from what I've 1:25:53.320 --> 1:25:56.960 seen from it, I I don't know, it's hard to 1:25:57.040 --> 1:26:00.280 get It's hard to gauge like how serious these like, 1:26:00.479 --> 1:26:04.880 I mean blockades. I've seen videos of some that involve 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:07.400 several dozen vehicles. Yeah, I mean, they have a lot 1:26:07.479 --> 1:26:11.400 of vehicles, like as as the thing. Okay, so the 1:26:11.680 --> 1:26:16.000 Supreme Court has ordered the police to like clear the barricades, 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:20.320 and espect I can tell they're kind of just getting 1:26:20.360 --> 1:26:28.280 their asses kicked, like they're not really resisting like particularly hard. 1:26:29.080 --> 1:26:32.040 And so I I don't know if this is like yeah, 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:34.439 it's I mean, it's the kind of thing that it 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:38.960 will present perhaps a model for other people in the future, 1:26:39.040 --> 1:26:41.880 if there's any efficacy to it. It certainly could be 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:45.719 part of an effective coup, like locking down the roads 1:26:45.760 --> 1:26:50.599 in this way. Like this is how like the against 1:26:51.280 --> 1:26:55.320 end started. For example, if both Signaro and his in 1:26:55.400 --> 1:27:00.719 the military don't both go in a dent right now, basically, 1:27:01.400 --> 1:27:04.000 um than than what these trekkers are doing will not 1:27:05.000 --> 1:27:07.680 be it much more than like an annoyance. You know. 1:27:07.760 --> 1:27:10.880 It's the same thing as with with January six. If 1:27:10.960 --> 1:27:14.200 Trump when they breached the capital, if Trump had declared 1:27:14.280 --> 1:27:17.559 I'm remaining president, everybody rise up, well, then a whole 1:27:17.600 --> 1:27:20.720 thing might have happened. Um, but he didn't, and so 1:27:21.840 --> 1:27:25.120 the momentum that might have kind of led into a 1:27:25.240 --> 1:27:28.360 more thorough takeover of the government fizzled out with a 1:27:28.400 --> 1:27:32.360 bunch of guys getting you know, into fist fights with 1:27:32.520 --> 1:27:35.120 the Capitol police and ship. Yeah, and and there's an 1:27:35.160 --> 1:27:37.240 aspect I think to a sort of important of like 1:27:37.560 --> 1:27:41.040 so these are like Bolson Row like this whole sort 1:27:41.040 --> 1:27:44.320 of like Trucker's blockade thing like this has been going 1:27:44.400 --> 1:27:47.320 on in various forms for like the entire time he's 1:27:47.320 --> 1:27:50.280 been in office, and like he sort of turned them 1:27:50.320 --> 1:27:52.760 into these motorcides that he would do. But they're really 1:27:52.880 --> 1:27:56.840 weird in that. Like, Okay, so if they are blocking roads, 1:27:56.920 --> 1:27:59.720 but a lot of it is kind of pure spectacle. 1:27:59.800 --> 1:28:01.559 At there's this whole wave of sort of right wing 1:28:01.640 --> 1:28:05.920 candidates like like basically but there's there's a whole wings 1:28:05.960 --> 1:28:07.960 with the right wing politicians who like got their start 1:28:08.200 --> 1:28:13.320 from like doing Instagram videos from like or like TikTok's 1:28:13.439 --> 1:28:16.480 like ship like whatever, like basically like from these blockades. 1:28:16.600 --> 1:28:18.840 So like, I don't know, they don't they don't seem 1:28:18.880 --> 1:28:21.000 to be like as of right now, I don't think 1:28:21.040 --> 1:28:25.200 they're like an incredibly serious fighting force. But you know, 1:28:25.360 --> 1:28:28.160 I mean it's not good and this is happening. Um, 1:28:28.720 --> 1:28:31.120 it's also not good that the police was like initially 1:28:31.160 --> 1:28:32.920 cooperating with them, and that the police set up their 1:28:32.960 --> 1:28:36.160 own roadblocks to some people voting. So I don't know, 1:28:36.240 --> 1:28:38.760 the situation is not good, but it's not as bad 1:28:38.800 --> 1:28:42.040 as it could be. And yeah, and I you know, 1:28:42.080 --> 1:28:45.000 I want to reiterate that, like the US has recognized 1:28:45.040 --> 1:28:47.599 that Lula has won the election, which I think makes 1:28:47.640 --> 1:28:51.240 it like infinitely harder. Yes, the fact that and this 1:28:51.520 --> 1:28:55.200 is this is one of those things when people on 1:28:55.280 --> 1:28:57.879 the left talk about like is there a harm reduction 1:28:58.000 --> 1:29:01.439 point and voting, Well, this his harm reduction, right, because 1:29:01.479 --> 1:29:03.639 if Trump had been in office, he would have backed 1:29:03.680 --> 1:29:07.479 Bolson Yarrow and Lula would be in prison again, and uh, 1:29:07.800 --> 1:29:10.639 there would be absolutely no hope for stemming the destruction 1:29:10.680 --> 1:29:15.080 of the rainforest. Not that things could still be a nightmare. 1:29:15.120 --> 1:29:18.599 And don't get me wrong, but we've we've at least 1:29:18.720 --> 1:29:23.040 avoided the most obvious way things could have been a disaster. Yeah, 1:29:23.560 --> 1:29:25.719 although I do want to point out that the Obama 1:29:25.720 --> 1:29:30.840 administration had a huge role in like this entire ship. 1:29:31.160 --> 1:29:34.120 It should be fair. The administration I don't think was 1:29:34.160 --> 1:29:36.040 trying to put Bosonari own power. They were trying to 1:29:36.080 --> 1:29:40.880 put the neelible rules in power. But they definitely we'll 1:29:40.880 --> 1:29:43.760 get into that next episode. But they definitely helped get 1:29:43.840 --> 1:29:47.200 us here. No, I mean that's true, and it also 1:29:47.400 --> 1:29:52.679 follows in the continually building story that like Biden's actually 1:29:52.760 --> 1:29:57.200 a much better precedent than Barack Obama. Yeah, low bar, 1:29:57.400 --> 1:30:00.879 but I mean indibly low bar, because is Barack Obama 1:30:01.000 --> 1:30:03.799 led directly to Donald Trump for a variety of reasons. 1:30:04.800 --> 1:30:09.160 There you are, this is this is a weird world 1:30:09.320 --> 1:30:11.880 that we live in. Yeah, and it's it's also like 1:30:12.320 --> 1:30:14.680 people are now starting you know, rightfully, so I know 1:30:14.760 --> 1:30:16.920 we're gonna be talking about a bunch of funked up 1:30:16.960 --> 1:30:20.760 stuff about Lula Um, most recently kind of bringing up 1:30:20.800 --> 1:30:23.800 his very bad takes on Ukraine. But it's also like 1:30:24.040 --> 1:30:28.040 I don't care. Like, obviously, I think I would always 1:30:28.280 --> 1:30:30.600 like for people to have, if they're going to have 1:30:31.120 --> 1:30:33.880 a representative democracy, better leaders. But at the end of 1:30:33.920 --> 1:30:38.120 the day, like the rainforest being destroyed at the rate 1:30:38.120 --> 1:30:40.920 it's being destroyed as an existential, existential threat to all 1:30:41.000 --> 1:30:43.479 life on Earth, and Lula has a proven track record 1:30:43.560 --> 1:30:47.240 of reducing defores station in the Amazon, So like what 1:30:47.439 --> 1:30:49.320 I like, I don't care that he has a bad 1:30:49.439 --> 1:30:52.240 take on you. I just don't like it. It doesn't 1:30:52.320 --> 1:30:54.840 matter really, Yeah, yeah, I like I saw, I saw 1:30:54.880 --> 1:30:57.919 I saw articles that were like Lula like supports democracy 1:30:57.960 --> 1:31:00.880 in Brazil but supports authoritarianism Abra. It's like, I guys, 1:31:01.000 --> 1:31:04.400 shut up, like holy shit, Jesus Christ, like I can 1:31:04.520 --> 1:31:08.160 I if I go back to two tho, like seventeen, 1:31:08.560 --> 1:31:11.280 I can find all of you like writing pulled fucking 1:31:11.360 --> 1:31:14.920 probos and now our articles, so like shut up. So okay, 1:31:14.960 --> 1:31:18.880 So let's get to how everything went to ship. So 1:31:19.479 --> 1:31:22.320 the last episode we sort of left the pt like 1:31:22.760 --> 1:31:27.479 writing high. Lula's out with like a like approve of rating. 1:31:28.200 --> 1:31:32.120 He's done like an economic miracle. He's pulled one of 1:31:32.160 --> 1:31:35.880 people out of poverty. I And you know, if things 1:31:35.960 --> 1:31:38.720 that continued like that, we wouldn't be here right now. 1:31:38.840 --> 1:31:44.120 So obviously something happens. And to understand what happens, unfortunately, 1:31:44.160 --> 1:31:47.519 we have to do some materialism. Um okay, so bear 1:31:47.560 --> 1:31:49.400 with me through the materialism. I promise we're going to 1:31:49.479 --> 1:31:52.000 get to a bunch of like absolutely horrific crimes against humanity. 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:54.280 But first we needed you a bit of my love. 1:31:54.400 --> 1:31:58.000 Crimes against humanity. Yeah, yeah, there it's there. There are 1:31:58.040 --> 1:32:04.679 lots of criming. They're there. It's oh boy, I'm already hard. Wait, 1:32:05.800 --> 1:32:09.439 maybe I shouldn't have said it that way, moving, moving 1:32:09.479 --> 1:32:15.439 swiftly on. So okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote here 1:32:15.720 --> 1:32:18.840 from one of the sort of more famous marks quotes 1:32:18.880 --> 1:32:22.800 for mation through beare uh. That is genuinely a very 1:32:22.840 --> 1:32:25.720 good way of understanding history, which is, men make their 1:32:25.760 --> 1:32:27.559 own history, but they do not make it as they 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:30.840 please do. They do not make it under self selective circumstances, 1:32:31.320 --> 1:32:35.000 but under circumstances are existing, already given and transmitted from 1:32:35.000 --> 1:32:38.600 the past. So okay, what what what are the circumstances 1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:43.679 that like two thousand two, Lula is inheriting um Lula's 1:32:43.680 --> 1:32:46.640 sort of social democratic plan is able to sort of 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:49.240 grow the economy and also pay off the ruling class 1:32:49.280 --> 1:32:51.760 to be able to stay in power at the same 1:32:51.840 --> 1:32:54.040 time because of something called the commodity boom um. A 1:32:54.080 --> 1:32:57.880 commodity boom broadly is just like it's a large spike 1:32:59.080 --> 1:33:01.320 across the board in the prices of commodities over a 1:33:01.360 --> 1:33:04.240 sort of period of time. We're we're using this sort 1:33:04.280 --> 1:33:07.960 of like mainstream bourgeois definition of commodity, which is like 1:33:08.960 --> 1:33:11.400 primary commodities and it's stuff you can like pick up 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:14.360 off the ground, dig up or harvest. So it's things 1:33:14.400 --> 1:33:21.200 like soybeans, like copper, iron, horses, lead, um, condoms. Yes, 1:33:21.520 --> 1:33:27.240 we understand what commodities are. Yes, the look brazil condom tree. 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:30.519 I don't know, I got nothing. So okay, Lula, Lula 1:33:30.680 --> 1:33:35.240 like takes office and leaves power like almost exactly perfectly 1:33:35.320 --> 1:33:36.800 to take to take advantage of the peak of the 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:40.640 commodity boom. Right, Lula comes into power. Well, okay, so 1:33:40.640 --> 1:33:42.400 you wouldn't see us in two election he takes obviously 1:33:42.400 --> 1:33:45.839 ausn't three. Um the commodity boom, according to a Cambridge 1:33:46.280 --> 1:33:48.720 to Cambridge is a handbook of primary commodities in the 1:33:48.760 --> 1:33:51.280 global economy, took off a two thousand four and ended 1:33:51.320 --> 1:33:54.000 in about two thousand fourteen. But it's slowing by ten 1:33:54.280 --> 1:33:57.759 just eleven ish and Lula exits office and two doesn't 1:33:57.760 --> 1:34:00.280 tend to the two term limit, which means he never 1:34:00.360 --> 1:34:03.560 has to deal with the consequences of the downturn. And 1:34:03.800 --> 1:34:06.120 let's stop here for a second. How do term limits 1:34:06.240 --> 1:34:08.840 work in the Brazilian system, because it's not the same 1:34:08.920 --> 1:34:11.160 as here here, Like a term limit means you get 1:34:11.200 --> 1:34:14.360 your two as president and then you're done. Yeah, So 1:34:14.520 --> 1:34:16.679 I I Okay, so the way I think it works, 1:34:16.800 --> 1:34:19.840 and I could be wrong about this, but I'm sure 1:34:19.840 --> 1:34:21.040 the way it works. Okay, So you can have two 1:34:21.200 --> 1:34:24.160 terms and then you can't run again in a row. 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:27.320 But if if like someone else comes in, you can 1:34:27.400 --> 1:34:29.160 then run again after that. It's just that you can 1:34:29.200 --> 1:34:31.320 only do two in a row. I mean, I'm happy 1:34:31.400 --> 1:34:33.680 that he's beaten Bolson Naro, but that is a very 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:36.360 silly way to do it. Yeah. Well, and I will 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:39.040 say something about this is something about Lula that like, 1:34:40.120 --> 1:34:42.840 I think kind of infuriates a lot of the people 1:34:42.920 --> 1:34:47.439 who like don't like him politically and want to sort 1:34:47.479 --> 1:34:51.200 of screaming. But his authoritarianism or whatever, like he he 1:34:51.400 --> 1:34:55.519 was always like like mostly really scrupulous about the sort 1:34:55.520 --> 1:34:57.880 of like democratic norm stuff. Like he a lot of 1:34:57.960 --> 1:35:00.599 other sort of like pink tied leaders in the same position. 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:02.840 Like this is actually how even Morallies originally gets in trouble, 1:35:03.320 --> 1:35:05.760 is that he tries to seek a third term and 1:35:06.640 --> 1:35:09.680 Lula it's just like not I'm out, I'm fuck it, like, 1:35:10.520 --> 1:35:14.840 which is which is good. Yeah, I mean it kind 1:35:14.920 --> 1:35:20.240 of like on the one hand and sore in theoretical terms, 1:35:20.320 --> 1:35:23.040 this is sort of like good for Brazilian democracy, etcetera, etcetera. 1:35:23.160 --> 1:35:26.040 In practical terms, it's kind of a disaster. I mean 1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:28.840 it's it's good because I think that it's always good 1:35:28.920 --> 1:35:33.360 when popular leaders acknowledge like absolute limits. But yeah, I 1:35:33.400 --> 1:35:38.320 mean the timing wasn't ideal. Yeah, and you know it. 1:35:39.920 --> 1:35:41.599 But you know, okay, so like the but the reason 1:35:41.680 --> 1:35:43.960 that he's able to sort of like you know, like 1:35:44.000 --> 1:35:45.920 if he if he if like if the constitution had 1:35:45.920 --> 1:35:47.519 allow him to run for a third term, he would 1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:51.240 have just like like he would have clabbored everyone. There's 1:35:51.240 --> 1:35:53.960 there's just not even like any remote competition to him. 1:35:54.360 --> 1:35:56.080 And the reason is able to do this again, it's 1:35:56.360 --> 1:36:02.120 like boom, guy he got he got like ten percent 1:36:02.240 --> 1:36:05.320 less of the vote this time. I mean, yeah, but 1:36:05.439 --> 1:36:09.120 what was that? Yeah, Okay, like this election was like 1:36:09.320 --> 1:36:15.120 really close. You talk about this most recent one back then? Yeah, yeah, 1:36:15.160 --> 1:36:18.519 lu Lula back then like literally unstoppable political, very very 1:36:18.640 --> 1:36:21.639 popular at this point. Yeah. But but this is because 1:36:21.680 --> 1:36:23.800 of the commodity boom, and we need to in order 1:36:23.840 --> 1:36:25.559 to understand what is going to happen to the PT, 1:36:25.640 --> 1:36:27.680 we need to understand why the commodity will happen in 1:36:27.720 --> 1:36:30.559 the first place, Um, this turns out to be very important. 1:36:30.600 --> 1:36:33.439 There's there's a lot of causes technically that have to 1:36:33.520 --> 1:36:36.920 do with a lot of complicated macroeconomic stuff. The single 1:36:37.000 --> 1:36:41.559 most important cause, UM, for us, and I think generally 1:36:41.760 --> 1:36:43.800 the one that is like is credited with the reason 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:47.120 that these commodity prices are increasing is the skyrocketing growth 1:36:47.160 --> 1:36:50.280 of the Chinese economy in two thousands, um. And I 1:36:50.320 --> 1:36:51.880 mean when I say is sky rockey and growth like 1:36:52.120 --> 1:36:55.559 we are talking like double digit GDP increases every year. 1:36:56.360 --> 1:36:58.360 This is when they have that Olympics where they have 1:36:58.439 --> 1:37:01.920 all the drummers, and you have that Newsweek article about 1:37:01.960 --> 1:37:06.600 how scary China is. Maybe it's um, yes, and and 1:37:06.920 --> 1:37:09.160 you know, and the sort of the massive increase industrial 1:37:09.200 --> 1:37:14.280 production like they are the CCP is like like Chinese 1:37:14.360 --> 1:37:18.080 industrializing on a scale that is I think like almost 1:37:18.120 --> 1:37:21.080 here that you want imaginable. And this means, you know, 1:37:21.120 --> 1:37:24.640 there's an enormous increase in demand for primary commodities. But 1:37:24.840 --> 1:37:27.080 this boom was only sustainable as long as the Chinese 1:37:27.080 --> 1:37:30.280 economy can maintain something like double digit GDP growth. But 1:37:30.800 --> 1:37:32.559 the problem is after she has in eight the Chinese 1:37:32.600 --> 1:37:35.040 economy starts to slow and sort of in response to this, 1:37:35.120 --> 1:37:38.320 and she does nine, the CCP does like one of 1:37:38.400 --> 1:37:43.240 the largest stimulus projects ever and they spend four trillion 1:37:43.400 --> 1:37:46.519 R and B on like infrastructure and welfare programs to 1:37:46.560 --> 1:37:51.560 stave off a recession. And and it works. But you know, 1:37:51.880 --> 1:37:55.479 like they this is this is like the largest like 1:37:56.720 --> 1:38:02.200 stimulus program ever and it can't really keep the economy 1:38:02.280 --> 1:38:06.439 growing like ever ever since two ten every single year 1:38:06.720 --> 1:38:11.559 well okay, I excluding the weird rebound stuff in one, 1:38:11.640 --> 1:38:14.160 but like like every every single year, like youar on 1:38:14.280 --> 1:38:16.280 your growth or the rate of growth of the Chinese 1:38:16.280 --> 1:38:21.479 economy has been decreasing, right, And okay, well the commodity 1:38:21.560 --> 1:38:24.360 boom you know, is produced by by feeling, you know, 1:38:24.439 --> 1:38:28.920 by by increased Chinese demand. But okay, what happens but 1:38:29.080 --> 1:38:32.439 when that you know isn't true? Um, but but you know, okay, 1:38:32.439 --> 1:38:34.720 so when in the two in the two thousand's like this, 1:38:34.880 --> 1:38:37.080 this is great. These are the sort of material conditions 1:38:37.120 --> 1:38:40.599 that make loopless like politics possible. Right, you have enormous 1:38:40.640 --> 1:38:44.160 economic growth and it bring and this economic growth is 1:38:44.160 --> 1:38:48.200 happening in sectors, like in a very important sectors to 1:38:48.240 --> 1:38:50.160 presuli an economy to the extent that is able to 1:38:50.240 --> 1:38:52.320 provide a revenue, a stable revenue base for the state 1:38:52.360 --> 1:38:54.920 that allows it to fund welfare programs like and pay 1:38:54.960 --> 1:38:57.200 off the bourgeoisie, which is you know, this is sort 1:38:57.200 --> 1:38:59.200 of like like papering over this sort of like fundamental 1:38:59.280 --> 1:39:02.640 contradiction of of of of the pt S base, right, 1:39:02.680 --> 1:39:04.040 which that they have they have to, like, they have 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:05.720 to keep the economy running, so they have they have 1:39:05.800 --> 1:39:09.480 to pay off a bunch of sort of like incredibly 1:39:09.520 --> 1:39:11.960 corrupt dudes, and also just sort of like Brazilian capitalists, 1:39:11.960 --> 1:39:14.719 they also are trying to sort of dough the welfare programs. 1:39:14.840 --> 1:39:18.599 But you know, the commodity collapses and suddenly there's only 1:39:18.760 --> 1:39:20.760 enough money to either pay the capitalists or pay the 1:39:20.840 --> 1:39:24.200 workers and not both, and the project becomes to collapse. 1:39:24.960 --> 1:39:29.080 And and this this happens across Latin America, um like 1:39:29.400 --> 1:39:31.640 like I would make the argument that like the end 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:33.840 of the commodity boom, like is the reaper that came 1:39:33.880 --> 1:39:36.599 from the Latin American left, it is at least as important, 1:39:36.640 --> 1:39:38.960 if not more so, in the collapse of the sort 1:39:38.960 --> 1:39:41.080 of the pink tide over over the course of the 1:39:41.160 --> 1:39:44.240 dozen tends. Like then the actual CIA, Like the CIA 1:39:44.360 --> 1:39:47.400 is very heavily involved in this, but the commodity boom 1:39:48.360 --> 1:39:51.680 just sort of like just nuking all of these economies 1:39:52.439 --> 1:39:54.680 like coming to an end like that. That is an 1:39:54.840 --> 1:39:59.080 enormously important, uh sort of like like element of this 1:39:59.240 --> 1:40:01.479 entire story. And there's all there's a there's another thing 1:40:01.560 --> 1:40:03.160 that we should note, which is that there's a problem 1:40:03.479 --> 1:40:07.880 with organizing your economy to be sort of like in 1:40:08.120 --> 1:40:12.000 a way that's reliant on sort of like primary commodity 1:40:12.080 --> 1:40:15.720 like export production. A Handbook of Primary Commodities and the 1:40:15.760 --> 1:40:20.639 Global Economy specifically notes quote Brazil significance and coffee, cotton, 1:40:20.840 --> 1:40:23.799 iron ore, sugar, and tobacco, and Chile has a dominant 1:40:23.840 --> 1:40:27.439 exporter of coffee. So okay, Brazil exports like eleven percent 1:40:27.479 --> 1:40:29.400 of the world's cotton, twenty percent of the world's iron 1:40:29.439 --> 1:40:33.040 oreft of its coffee, it's sugar, and eighteen percent of 1:40:33.080 --> 1:40:36.719 it's tobacco um and also has an enormous cattle industry, 1:40:36.800 --> 1:40:38.439 has got like a bunch of soybean farming, which is 1:40:38.439 --> 1:40:41.479 actually really important because it turns out as trying to 1:40:41.520 --> 1:40:47.840 get it turns people into into into soy boys. Yeah. 1:40:47.960 --> 1:40:50.880 It also makes soy sauce, which is are are very 1:40:51.000 --> 1:40:54.040 important for it. I mean more importantly are reserves of 1:40:54.360 --> 1:40:58.519 of beta coc energy would be disastrously low if if 1:40:58.560 --> 1:41:01.800 we didn't have Brazilian so So thank you JayR. Bolsaaro 1:41:02.520 --> 1:41:05.920 for keeping the soy flowing. Yeah, well, I mean this 1:41:06.160 --> 1:41:07.559 this is sort of like like this is a joke, 1:41:07.680 --> 1:41:09.519 like this is this is sort of the issue with this, right, 1:41:09.680 --> 1:41:14.400 Like okay, so politically this is a there's also a 1:41:14.479 --> 1:41:17.479 massive timber industry which has been literally destroying the entire planet. 1:41:17.920 --> 1:41:19.519 But like, okay, so like you just thinking, if you 1:41:19.680 --> 1:41:24.720 know anything about sugar, coffee, cottinent tobacco, you know those 1:41:24.760 --> 1:41:28.280 are slavery crops, and you know, like these are these 1:41:28.280 --> 1:41:31.000 are like the primary exports of a plantation economy, and 1:41:31.240 --> 1:41:35.519 the people who run those kind of like like economies, 1:41:35.520 --> 1:41:38.160 the people who are like those plantation owners or like 1:41:38.479 --> 1:41:40.880 the scariest people who have ever lived anywhere, like at 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:44.400 any time on Earth. And you know, in Brazil, these 1:41:44.400 --> 1:41:47.840 people have been in power for five years and unfortunately 1:41:48.240 --> 1:41:50.920 this is like a big part of what sort of 1:41:51.000 --> 1:41:54.320 los economic miracle is resting on and and and this 1:41:54.479 --> 1:41:56.759 this isn't really like a base that produce of socialism, 1:41:56.840 --> 1:42:01.320 like if your economic base is relying on these like 1:42:01.680 --> 1:42:06.080 unbelievably psychotic racist like planter oligarchs, like you're economic based 1:42:06.160 --> 1:42:11.920 something that creates fascism. However, Comma, Robert, do you know 1:42:12.000 --> 1:42:16.160 what else produces fascism? UM? The products and services that 1:42:16.200 --> 1:42:19.560 support this podcast? Ding ding ding ding ding that some 1:42:19.680 --> 1:42:24.320 of them, I guess art fascism just directly so true. Yeah, yeah, 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:27.720 the Gold the Gold people probably would be would be 1:42:27.760 --> 1:42:31.960 the main example of the UM. But we also are 1:42:32.080 --> 1:42:40.920 sponsored by big fascism dot org. Calm, goshh it, I don't, 1:42:40.920 --> 1:42:44.400 I don't know, I don't just roll the fucking ants. Ah, 1:42:44.560 --> 1:42:47.800 we're back, boy. That was a good ad pivot. I 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:52.320 hope everybody is happy, Chris. Why don't you continue talking 1:42:52.520 --> 1:42:57.559 about Lula? Yeah, so speaking of fascism, but doo doo, 1:42:57.640 --> 1:43:02.640 doo do do, I was doing a yeah not not 1:43:02.800 --> 1:43:06.120 not well, this is going great. It's hard to hard 1:43:06.160 --> 1:43:11.519 to We'll we'll have Daniel fix that up in post. Yeah. Okay, So, 1:43:11.600 --> 1:43:13.960 so speaking of creating fascism yet, let's talk about that 1:43:14.040 --> 1:43:18.200 time Lulu invaded Haiti. Al Right, well, okay, to be 1:43:18.439 --> 1:43:23.559 fair whoms among us hasn't invaded Haiti. This is true. 1:43:23.840 --> 1:43:27.080 That's true. I've never InVID Haiti. However, the US and 1:43:27.240 --> 1:43:31.200 Canada also and the UK that is more what I 1:43:31.400 --> 1:43:37.920 was saying. Okay, like it's yeah, so okay. So in 1:43:38.000 --> 1:43:41.080 two thousand four, a CIA backed coup, I said, Haiti's 1:43:41.080 --> 1:43:47.639 democratically elected leftist presidents Jane bachid aristide and initially okay, 1:43:47.720 --> 1:43:49.880 So the initial sort of occupation force a sent in 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:52.839 by the U N is a US is like an American, 1:43:52.920 --> 1:43:55.680 French and Canadian force um. And they're sent in like 1:43:55.920 --> 1:44:00.439 ostensibly under the sort of guys of like restoring stability 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:04.479 or whatever, um. Because when I think about who can 1:44:04.560 --> 1:44:07.639 make Haiti stable, it's France in the United States. Yeah, 1:44:08.400 --> 1:44:14.840 partners stability and Canada. Now glad you guys, are you know, 1:44:15.080 --> 1:44:19.920 getting getting involved in in your big brothers uh crimes 1:44:19.920 --> 1:44:24.680 against humanity? I'm wondering for the Canadian stuff. How how 1:44:24.760 --> 1:44:26.799 do they ship all all of all of the mounties 1:44:26.840 --> 1:44:30.599 all the way to Haiti? Okay, so they took their 1:44:30.680 --> 1:44:36.639 horses over the water, garrison built the land bridge. Yeah 1:44:38.120 --> 1:44:39.960 you know, okay, So but the thing about this force, 1:44:40.160 --> 1:44:45.479 right is that like okay, so even to like the 1:44:45.600 --> 1:44:49.720 most casual observer, having literally France in the US and 1:44:49.800 --> 1:44:52.479 also Canada, which is like it's just the US, but 1:44:52.560 --> 1:44:57.120 there's also a French part of it, like literally weird 1:44:57.320 --> 1:45:03.560 fucking sausage soup on their damn French fries. Like like 1:45:04.080 --> 1:45:08.040 the optics of these people just militarily occupying Haiti is 1:45:08.120 --> 1:45:12.080 really bad. Um, so okay, you want to trying to 1:45:12.120 --> 1:45:15.600 figure out like a permanent force. And initially Lula like 1:45:15.760 --> 1:45:19.560 opposes Brazil getting involved in this, which is good, but 1:45:20.000 --> 1:45:23.680 that would make sense when I think about change, When 1:45:23.720 --> 1:45:26.800 I think about whether or not Brazil should be involved 1:45:26.920 --> 1:45:29.840 in places, Haiti would not be the top of my list. 1:45:31.040 --> 1:45:32.800 This is always this is always just like a really 1:45:32.960 --> 1:45:35.120 sad thing of sort of like just like the history 1:45:35.200 --> 1:45:37.840 of Latin America of like how many countries like, oh 1:45:38.000 --> 1:45:40.599 their existence to Haiti over and over and over again, 1:45:41.360 --> 1:45:44.280 like sending them troops and ships and weapons, and then 1:45:44.320 --> 1:45:46.240 every single one of these countries are like, ah, fuck 1:45:46.320 --> 1:45:51.919 you Haiti. So Lula like it's basically Lola becomes convinced 1:45:51.960 --> 1:45:54.480 that like this is this is like his big opportunity 1:45:54.640 --> 1:45:58.120 to like build the influence of Brazil and the international 1:45:58.240 --> 1:46:01.479 stage and so Brazil just like takes over the occupation 1:46:01.600 --> 1:46:04.719 or the auspices of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti, 1:46:05.280 --> 1:46:12.840 which has the like utterly impronounceable acronym minished or something. 1:46:13.680 --> 1:46:18.240 God damn it, guys, you know how to do an acronym. 1:46:18.439 --> 1:46:24.080 You have enough money, Jesus, you would think. However, Comma, no, 1:46:24.439 --> 1:46:28.080 it's this bullshit and okay, So apparently this is part 1:46:28.120 --> 1:46:29.880 of a plan to try to get US and French 1:46:29.920 --> 1:46:32.960 support for a bid to get Brazil a permanency in 1:46:33.000 --> 1:46:36.160 the UN Security Council. If you google who is currently 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:38.519 on the UN Security Council, you will see how this went, 1:46:40.120 --> 1:46:43.800 which is to say, it did not work and ship 1:46:43.880 --> 1:46:47.680 starts going horrifically badly almost immediately. Um basically like at 1:46:47.720 --> 1:46:50.240 the outside of the occupation, Brazilian chiefs and Haiti launched 1:46:50.240 --> 1:46:53.920 an attack on a quote gang leader. And note, by 1:46:54.000 --> 1:46:57.599 the way here the terminology that he's used to describe 1:46:57.640 --> 1:47:00.400 this operation and the people, the people that the fighting 1:47:00.920 --> 1:47:03.600 is exactly the same way as the paramilitary forces in 1:47:03.720 --> 1:47:06.720 Haiti are described like right now by the U S 1:47:06.800 --> 1:47:08.559 and the u N. As the US tries to stage 1:47:08.560 --> 1:47:11.920 another invasion, this time with the backing of Mexico is 1:47:11.960 --> 1:47:17.080 nominally leftist president. A'm low so uh yeah, real sort 1:47:17.120 --> 1:47:21.559 of legacy of people who Americans think are leftists doing 1:47:21.600 --> 1:47:25.560 imperialism and Haiti. Good job, everyone, well everybody does a 1:47:25.640 --> 1:47:28.400 little bit of imperialism and Haiti, you know, okay, as 1:47:28.400 --> 1:47:30.439 a treat I mean, this is the thing, right right, 1:47:30.960 --> 1:47:33.400 every every single country in Latin America is bound and 1:47:33.479 --> 1:47:39.160 determined to prove that you actually cannot do I contrary 1:47:39.200 --> 1:47:41.920 to contrary sort of popular opinion about this, you actually 1:47:41.960 --> 1:47:45.240 can't do social democracy without imperialism. And every single time 1:47:45.360 --> 1:47:46.960 someone tries to do a social democracy they have to 1:47:47.040 --> 1:47:49.920 invade Haiti. It's just sort of like it's it's, it's, it's, it's, 1:47:49.960 --> 1:47:53.720 it's it's it's in the contract here, okay. And so 1:47:54.000 --> 1:47:57.000 they they the the un the sort of light And 1:47:57.040 --> 1:47:58.280 by the way, I should point out that the u 1:47:58.439 --> 1:48:01.519 N Force is commanded by a Brazilian general, like the 1:48:01.720 --> 1:48:03.880 entire basically wants the Brazilians take over the It's commanded 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:09.160 by Brazilian generals the entire time. Um, and they seem nice, yeah, okay, 1:48:09.200 --> 1:48:12.920 So they go after this guy and they fired twenty 1:48:13.000 --> 1:48:16.360 two thousand rounds of ammunition into basically just like our 1:48:16.360 --> 1:48:20.439 apartment buildings. UM. To this day, nobody knows how many 1:48:20.479 --> 1:48:22.960 people they killed, but from my winners reports, we know 1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:26.120 they killed babies, they killed children, they killed pregnant women. 1:48:26.240 --> 1:48:30.519 It is it is Vietnam ship. It is absolutely awful. Um. 1:48:31.280 --> 1:48:35.600 Augusta Helano, who I guess the Heleno, I don't know 1:48:35.600 --> 1:48:38.160 how us name. He's the guy who leads this operation. 1:48:38.520 --> 1:48:43.920 Becomes the head of Bolsonnaro's Institutional Security Bureau. Um here here, 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:47.960 here's a headline from PODA three sixty from last week. Quote. 1:48:48.160 --> 1:48:50.720 It is not possible to admit the return of the 1:48:50.840 --> 1:48:53.519 Red Gang, says Hellano. And by the Red Gang he 1:48:53.800 --> 1:48:58.200 means Lula. He's calling Lula communist. And this is fine 1:48:58.320 --> 1:49:00.920 and good from a guy who again is the head 1:49:01.080 --> 1:49:05.360 of the Institutional Security Bureau. Um. All right, this guy 1:49:07.080 --> 1:49:10.880 like sucks so much. Um. When you were retiring two 1:49:10.880 --> 1:49:14.280 thousand eleven, Helano defended this is from Bruter's And when 1:49:14.320 --> 1:49:17.800 he retired in two thousand eleven, Helano defended Brazil's sixty 1:49:17.880 --> 1:49:21.840 four military dictatorship as a bulwark against the communist quoted 1:49:21.880 --> 1:49:25.880 the communization of the country and Okay, so like we 1:49:26.040 --> 1:49:27.760 we can say that as as much as sort of 1:49:27.880 --> 1:49:32.200 Brazil's like fascism his home grown, and this is absolutely true, 1:49:32.560 --> 1:49:35.839 they're also just like eating the assend if you pose boomerang, 1:49:36.280 --> 1:49:38.720 because all of the fascism that they're about to do 1:49:39.120 --> 1:49:42.719 is exported Dehiti before it comes back. Um, here's some wriuters. 1:49:43.000 --> 1:49:46.759 This is talking about Bolsonaro's cabinet, his proposed his proposed 1:49:46.800 --> 1:49:51.719 defense minister, Former General Fernando Alvarezi Silva, served under Helano 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:56.400 as a as an operations chief. Bolsonardo's incoming infrastructure minister, 1:49:58.840 --> 1:50:03.439 Tarcisio free TOAs was a senior UN military engineer in Haiti, 1:50:03.560 --> 1:50:07.080 arriving shortly after Hellano left in two thousand five. Retired 1:50:07.120 --> 1:50:12.679 General Carlos Alberto does Santa Cruz, Brazil's next government minister, 1:50:12.960 --> 1:50:15.760 led UN troops in the Caribbean nation two seven. All 1:50:15.760 --> 1:50:17.320 of those guys, by the way that this was written 1:50:17.360 --> 1:50:20.200 before the election, Um, all of those guys took office, 1:50:20.680 --> 1:50:26.320 uh to Fully two of of Bolsonaro's secretaries of government 1:50:26.360 --> 1:50:31.360 were part of this occupation. So yeah, this this obviously 1:50:31.800 --> 1:50:35.760 it went great for Lula, Like yeah, okay, a good job. 1:50:35.880 --> 1:50:38.479 You you you you sent to logic colonial troops to 1:50:38.479 --> 1:50:41.040 occupy Haiti and then all of the generals came home 1:50:41.080 --> 1:50:44.080 and we're like, let's fucking do fascism here too. Yeah. 1:50:44.160 --> 1:50:46.920 So in this episode, which we're talking a lot about 1:50:46.960 --> 1:50:49.360 sort of the Brazilian fascism because you know, this is 1:50:49.400 --> 1:50:51.040 a britil episode, but I don't want to minimize like 1:50:51.120 --> 1:50:53.760 what this did to Haiti, where like to this day, 1:50:53.880 --> 1:50:58.000 Lula is like fucking despised um for you know, like 1:50:58.400 --> 1:51:00.400 betraying the Haitian people and fucking you puy in the 1:51:00.400 --> 1:51:03.120 country with troops. Like there's there's this whole thing where 1:51:03.760 --> 1:51:06.760 like he Lula goes to Haiti and he has this 1:51:06.800 --> 1:51:08.640 whole thing about how like he has He's playing like 1:51:08.680 --> 1:51:10.559 a soccer match and he's like, Okay, we're gonna show 1:51:10.600 --> 1:51:13.160 the world there's an alternative to bullets. And meanwhile, this 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:15.919 soccer stadium is literally surrounded by the by the Brazilian 1:51:16.000 --> 1:51:21.040 army and it's oh boy, um, I love I love 1:51:21.200 --> 1:51:23.440 showing the world there's I mean, there is an alternative 1:51:23.479 --> 1:51:26.280 to bullets. And it's just threatening people with your guns 1:51:26.640 --> 1:51:29.320 because they know you've shot enough people that you'll use 1:51:29.400 --> 1:51:31.720 them if and drones too. By the way, this is 1:51:31.800 --> 1:51:33.280 this is where this is where the UN learns how 1:51:33.280 --> 1:51:35.920 to do drone warfare. Um. The everything is happening here 1:51:36.000 --> 1:51:37.960 is this is this occupation is where the UN starts 1:51:38.000 --> 1:51:40.720 to like fight quote like hybrid wars for the first time, 1:51:41.360 --> 1:51:43.160 you know, the like the wars that they're that they're 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:46.479 doing these sort of peacekeeping operations quote unquote, Uh, they're 1:51:46.479 --> 1:51:48.599 starting they starting to do kind of insurgency ship where 1:51:48.640 --> 1:51:51.120 like they animate can be mixed in with the population, 1:51:51.720 --> 1:51:54.080 and you know that they kill a ship ton of people. 1:51:54.320 --> 1:51:57.000 There is rampant rape and sexual assault because it turns 1:51:57.040 --> 1:51:59.960 out that when you when you send troops to another 1:52:00.040 --> 1:52:03.240 country to occupy it, this is what happens. Um. And 1:52:03.439 --> 1:52:05.519 when when when when this force eventually pulls out in 1:52:05.520 --> 1:52:07.840 Shent seventeen, they just like leave a ship ton of 1:52:07.880 --> 1:52:11.519 fither of those babies behind because the people who you know, 1:52:11.720 --> 1:52:13.400 did all this ship like fuck it, We're just gonna leave, 1:52:13.800 --> 1:52:17.519 like leave the children behind. Um, I think most famously. Okay, 1:52:17.560 --> 1:52:20.599 so there's there's a giant earthquake in Haiti and justn't 1:52:20.640 --> 1:52:23.240 ten and this leads to this like enormous sort of 1:52:23.280 --> 1:52:27.519 redoubling of the occupation and troops are brought in from 1:52:27.560 --> 1:52:29.960 other parts of the world, including there's a contisition from Nepaul. 1:52:30.080 --> 1:52:33.799 And the results of this is that definitely Haiti seems 1:52:33.880 --> 1:52:38.280 like a place Nepalese soldiers. This is. This is, by 1:52:38.320 --> 1:52:41.040 the way, like this this is like the new revolutionary 1:52:41.120 --> 1:52:43.879 government in Nepal that is like finally defeated the monarchy 1:52:44.479 --> 1:52:50.080 after like god decades. It's like we all looked at 1:52:50.120 --> 1:52:53.000 the British Empire and we're like, well, that's clearly fucked up. 1:52:53.360 --> 1:52:56.800 But what if we did it in a decentralized way, right, 1:52:57.160 --> 1:52:59.240 Like what if what if it wasn't just the British? 1:52:59.280 --> 1:53:02.200 What if every one was sending Nepolie shock troops and 1:53:02.280 --> 1:53:06.880 to crack down on popular insurgencies. Well, and you know, 1:53:07.000 --> 1:53:08.519 and the thing that the thing that particularly goes wrong 1:53:08.560 --> 1:53:10.519 with the Nepolice troops is that the Nepolice troop would 1:53:10.520 --> 1:53:13.960 bring cholerade to Haiti. And okay, well again, who hasn't 1:53:14.800 --> 1:53:16.959 you know? Okay, there's the thing, the defeat of cholerade. 1:53:16.960 --> 1:53:20.000 This is like one of the few genu Wined victories 1:53:20.120 --> 1:53:24.120 we have had over sort of like like the last 1:53:24.120 --> 1:53:26.240 two years over the forces that have caused like human 1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:28.560 misery and suffering for like this time of memorial is 1:53:28.600 --> 1:53:31.439 that we defeated cholera and then we brought it back 1:53:31.880 --> 1:53:34.680 the fucking you had occupation brings like this is the 1:53:34.800 --> 1:53:37.559 this is the first lower scale color outbreak in modern times, 1:53:37.680 --> 1:53:44.280 UM eight hundred thousandations get color results. Christ, Yeah, it's 1:53:44.400 --> 1:53:48.919 it's not hard to not spread cholera. Yeah, we success, 1:53:49.000 --> 1:53:52.160 Like even if you're looking by the standards of military occupations, 1:53:52.640 --> 1:53:56.160 like the Russians didn't haven't spread cholera in Ukraine. It's 1:53:56.240 --> 1:53:59.760 not hard to not SPA in Vietnam now, like we 1:54:00.240 --> 1:54:02.920 create a cholera epidemic in Afghanistan. Ad Right, it is 1:54:03.040 --> 1:54:06.200 not hard to not create a cholera epidemic to be 1:54:06.280 --> 1:54:07.920 to be fair, the s the Saudis have managed to 1:54:07.960 --> 1:54:10.200 create one and create one in Yemen now too, but 1:54:10.600 --> 1:54:13.600 that's probably worse than this one. But that more just 1:54:13.840 --> 1:54:18.680 reinforces my point that most imperialist occupations are able to 1:54:18.920 --> 1:54:23.560 not cause epidemics. It's hard and okay, you know, and 1:54:23.720 --> 1:54:27.559 and obviously right like, okay, you you've now created your 1:54:27.600 --> 1:54:30.400 colonial army. The colonial army is gonna come home and 1:54:31.120 --> 1:54:34.800 literally these same troops go back to Brazil and launch 1:54:34.840 --> 1:54:38.920 a war in the favelas um like like under under 1:54:39.000 --> 1:54:42.720 under Joba Russo's PT Like the fucking army is literally 1:54:42.840 --> 1:54:45.720 occupying the favillas. And you know this is all part 1:54:45.760 --> 1:54:47.560 of the PATS like massive campaign to sort of buy 1:54:47.600 --> 1:54:49.760 weapons and modernize the army, which is you know, and 1:54:50.160 --> 1:54:55.360 by like, I I think currently they're involved in like okay, okay, 1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:59.400 I I'm not entirely sure about my dates on this. 1:55:00.200 --> 1:55:02.560 I I'm tirely sure if they're if they're currently involved 1:55:02.560 --> 1:55:05.840 in nine UNPC co operations you sixteen, but there are 1:55:06.160 --> 1:55:11.560 like there are there are I Brazilian troops like all 1:55:11.680 --> 1:55:16.080 over the world. I still doing this bullshit. And you know, 1:55:16.280 --> 1:55:18.880 again as we've talked about, like literally the people who 1:55:18.920 --> 1:55:20.840 are in Haiti like are the people who are going 1:55:20.880 --> 1:55:24.240 to help put Lula in prison and put Bulson in power. 1:55:24.680 --> 1:55:28.400 So you know this is some I this is some 1:55:28.520 --> 1:55:35.800 fucking enormous like creating your own grave diggers ship. Okay, 1:55:35.960 --> 1:55:38.560 So okay, well we've now we've now gotten through one 1:55:38.800 --> 1:55:41.000 of the sort of sets of grave diggers the PTS 1:55:41.040 --> 1:55:46.680 building for themselves, um. But also back in back in Brazil, 1:55:46.840 --> 1:55:49.560 things are also like you know, not going great for them, 1:55:49.840 --> 1:55:52.360 which and the way that this is specifically not going 1:55:52.440 --> 1:55:54.640 great is that like even even you know, in the 1:55:54.720 --> 1:55:59.320 hour of triumph, triumph of the Workers Party, right Lula Sendent, etcetera, etcetera, 1:55:59.600 --> 1:56:02.040 there is a massive fissure opening under the feet of 1:56:02.040 --> 1:56:05.440 the Brazilian left. And that fisher is the gig economy. Um. 1:56:05.680 --> 1:56:10.200 We we have talked like literally ad nauseum on this 1:56:10.320 --> 1:56:13.120 show about how the economy is bad for workers, um, 1:56:14.480 --> 1:56:18.560 for for our purposes. The thing that's kind of important 1:56:18.600 --> 1:56:21.640 here is that doing this kind of gig work right, 1:56:21.680 --> 1:56:25.200 like becoming an independent like an independent contractor, um, it 1:56:25.400 --> 1:56:28.840 has a profound social and political effect, and it creates 1:56:28.880 --> 1:56:31.480 a sort of profound social political animization, right. It breaks 1:56:31.520 --> 1:56:34.000 down the sort of social bonds that like built the 1:56:34.040 --> 1:56:36.000 workers who have been in the PT and transport and 1:56:36.320 --> 1:56:40.200 and instead of instead of the sort of like you know, massification, right, 1:56:40.520 --> 1:56:43.040 like the conversion of people into sort of like these 1:56:43.080 --> 1:56:47.200 these these these like like concrete mass social entities who 1:56:47.240 --> 1:56:50.800 can like take collective action. You get these neo liberal 1:56:50.840 --> 1:56:54.480 subjects who are incredibly atomized, incredibly isolated and vulnerable to 1:56:54.560 --> 1:56:57.280 sort of like, you know, fascist projects that promise like 1:56:57.360 --> 1:56:59.720 community and unity, like this new organic hall and you know, 1:56:59.800 --> 1:57:02.640 get for bulcenario draws support from oh wait, it's a 1:57:02.720 --> 1:57:06.000 it's a newly evangelical section of the working class. Um 1:57:07.080 --> 1:57:09.600 And and to to be clear here, the informal sector 1:57:09.640 --> 1:57:12.840 of Brazil has always been massive, but the way the 1:57:12.920 --> 1:57:16.880 PC runs their welfare programs makes everything just exponentially worse. 1:57:17.120 --> 1:57:19.560 Um We talked about this a bit last episode, but 1:57:19.640 --> 1:57:21.879 one of the big things that the PC's welfare programs 1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:24.920 do is they're about getting giving people access to micro credit. 1:57:26.920 --> 1:57:30.240 And Okay, so in the short run this is technically 1:57:30.360 --> 1:57:35.040 incredibly effective at combating poverty. But it had another effect, 1:57:35.200 --> 1:57:40.440 which was to sort of like deeply, infirmly like sort 1:57:40.480 --> 1:57:43.560 of like like ingrained vast sections of Brazilian workers into 1:57:43.560 --> 1:57:47.080 the banking system and tournament to micro entrepreneurs. And okay, 1:57:47.160 --> 1:57:51.600 so being a social democratic party and on purpose constructing 1:57:51.680 --> 1:57:55.240 an entire class of micro entrepreneurs is like maybe the 1:57:55.320 --> 1:57:58.440 single best example of producing your own grave figgures that 1:57:58.480 --> 1:58:01.760 I've seen since like a military dictatorship cooperating with Lulu 1:58:01.840 --> 1:58:06.080 in the first place, this is a terrible idea. But 1:58:06.560 --> 1:58:08.600 you know, okay, so I I think I think I 1:58:08.640 --> 1:58:11.880 think it's worth asking, like, why is the PT doing this? 1:58:12.000 --> 1:58:14.720 Ship right? Like this is this is something that is 1:58:14.760 --> 1:58:19.200 like otherwise absolutely incomprehensible. Um And the answer is that 1:58:19.320 --> 1:58:21.120 the PC was never quite the party that people think 1:58:21.160 --> 1:58:23.440 it is. Um Here here is from a Brazilian anarchist 1:58:23.520 --> 1:58:27.000 writing and crime think. The rulers linked to the realization 1:58:27.080 --> 1:58:30.200 of mega events cheaply re political rewards for FIFA and 1:58:30.240 --> 1:58:32.960 its corporate crony is not coincidentally the same companies that 1:58:33.080 --> 1:58:36.040 finance the electoral campaigns of the PT. The benefits were 1:58:36.080 --> 1:58:39.919 financial profits stretched into the billions, under written by public resources, 1:58:39.960 --> 1:58:42.720 and guaranteed by police oppression. The PC could not have 1:58:42.840 --> 1:58:45.440 done this alone. It was the party that received the 1:58:45.520 --> 1:58:49.200 largest total of private donations in recent years seventy millions 1:58:49.320 --> 1:58:53.000 dozen thirteen. Well other parties like the PSDB, the Social 1:58:53.080 --> 1:58:57.760 Democratic Party and PMDB Party of Democratic Movement, the biggest 1:58:57.800 --> 1:59:01.040 and oldest party in Brazil, mostly center right conservative politicians, 1:59:01.200 --> 1:59:05.800 only managed forty six million dollars altogether. In two thousand fourteen, 1:59:05.880 --> 1:59:08.760 the year of Dilma Russo's re election, the PT received 1:59:08.800 --> 1:59:12.440 forty seven million dollars some contractors facing lawsuits and investigations. 1:59:12.880 --> 1:59:16.240 While the PMDB got thirty eight million, the ps dB 1:59:16.480 --> 1:59:19.800 got twenty eight million. This demonstrates the symbiosis between the 1:59:19.840 --> 1:59:22.120 Workers Party and those who control the flow of capital 1:59:22.200 --> 1:59:26.160 in the country, a connective tissue of economic and political power. 1:59:27.960 --> 1:59:32.000 So this is not good. Um And and you you 1:59:32.040 --> 1:59:35.120 can sort of ask what was the PC really doing here, right, 1:59:35.240 --> 1:59:37.400 like why okay, why are they doing micro loans? Why 1:59:37.400 --> 1:59:40.200 are they taking all of this money? Um? And there's 1:59:40.240 --> 1:59:43.000 a really really good pair of articles from a Brazilian 1:59:43.000 --> 1:59:45.080 group called Bilitants in the Fog that was published at 1:59:45.080 --> 1:59:48.160 ill Will called Work and Revolt in Brazil's dead Ends. 1:59:48.280 --> 1:59:51.200 And I'm going to read from some of it. A 1:59:51.280 --> 1:59:54.000 bank accounts, a smartphone with access to the internet, and 1:59:54.080 --> 1:59:57.320 a profile in an app. The means to collect emergency aid, 1:59:57.360 --> 2:00:00.120 which is emergency aid is um. Part of this is 2:00:00.200 --> 2:00:03.760 talking about Bosonaro stuff. So I Bolsonaro implements this policy 2:00:04.000 --> 2:00:06.240 called emergency A which is like it's it's it's kind 2:00:06.240 --> 2:00:07.880 of the equivalent of like the U S S I 2:00:08.960 --> 2:00:12.680 like the stimulus checks that we got, but slightly difference. 2:00:14.560 --> 2:00:17.040 But the means required to collect emergency aid or are 2:00:17.120 --> 2:00:19.240 the same required to create an account for Uber, a 2:00:19.320 --> 2:00:23.400 sign that we are facing fundamental parts of this quote 2:00:23.480 --> 2:00:26.480 new way of working. Years ago, it was already possible 2:00:26.520 --> 2:00:29.360 to identify the bolsa familiar program, which is that giant 2:00:29.640 --> 2:00:34.200 um PT like workers Party cash transfer program that we 2:00:34.240 --> 2:00:37.720 talked about last episode. Chouse dimensions were small in the 2:00:37.760 --> 2:00:42.960 face of fcial aid program. The the objective of forming 2:00:43.000 --> 2:00:47.360 a unified workplace more deeply subjugated to capitalist relations. The 2:00:47.520 --> 2:00:51.080 quote bank ification promoted by the program contributed to the 2:00:51.160 --> 2:00:55.120 expanding contributed to expanding the reach of micro credit systems, 2:00:55.480 --> 2:00:59.720 a process of financialization of informality, which was deepened in 2:00:59.800 --> 2:01:02.920 re some years with the dissemination of increasingly agile and 2:01:03.000 --> 2:01:05.960 easy payment terminals and electronic payment systems such as picks 2:01:06.400 --> 2:01:09.600 at tax Free, a quicker and tax free money transfer method. 2:01:10.600 --> 2:01:13.840 The phenomenon reached unprecedented intensity due to the Emergency A. 2:01:14.040 --> 2:01:18.400 The state owned bank Taxia Economic and Federal absorbed thirty 2:01:18.440 --> 2:01:20.960 million customers in ten days, and it was what was 2:01:21.000 --> 2:01:24.480 possibly the fastest bankification process of history, thus reaching a 2:01:24.560 --> 2:01:28.240 record profit in two Access to credit is essential for 2:01:28.320 --> 2:01:31.960 the emergence of a precarious workforce to which capital, costs 2:01:32.000 --> 2:01:34.440 and risk are transferred. Well, interest rates introduced a new 2:01:34.560 --> 2:01:39.640 level of productivity to the old. Okay, this is a 2:01:39.880 --> 2:01:42.920 Portuguese word that oh, boy, via carro, which is like 2:01:43.200 --> 2:01:45.560 getting by, which is this sort of like it's a 2:01:45.600 --> 2:01:48.120 sort of slaying term for kind of like doing stuff 2:01:48.120 --> 2:01:51.720 in the informal economy to like survive. Yeah, which is 2:01:51.760 --> 2:01:54.920 now directly connected to global financial markets. Thus, the focus 2:01:55.000 --> 2:01:57.720 of these income policies would be less on expanding consumption 2:01:57.760 --> 2:02:01.320 capacity for the beneficiaries as in the Kinzian distributive model, 2:02:01.360 --> 2:02:05.240 and more on expanding their investment capacity, financing the acquisition 2:02:05.280 --> 2:02:08.600 of work instruments and quote self valuing their human capital. 2:02:09.640 --> 2:02:12.839 Enthusiasts of such programs claim that financeial the financial cushion 2:02:12.880 --> 2:02:15.520 provided by basic income, can represent enough stability for people 2:02:15.560 --> 2:02:17.320 to be able to spend their own savings or other 2:02:17.360 --> 2:02:24.360 capital starting a business. So, okay, what's happening here, um 2:02:24.440 --> 2:02:26.600 and the militants of fog is arguing this after the 2:02:26.640 --> 2:02:35.160 work of a Brazilian academical named Ludmilla Abilio is Okay, 2:02:35.640 --> 2:02:38.120 what's happening here is is the real subsumption of the 2:02:38.200 --> 2:02:40.200 formal economy, which okay, so like what what what does 2:02:40.280 --> 2:02:43.040 that mean? We need to take a step back and 2:02:43.120 --> 2:02:45.400 do like a little bit more marks. So Marx makes 2:02:45.480 --> 2:02:49.560 this distinction between what he calls formal and real subsumption. 2:02:49.600 --> 2:02:51.440 Subsumption is this like the whole philosophy thing I'm not 2:02:51.480 --> 2:02:53.720 going to get into here, but basically what he's talking 2:02:53.760 --> 2:02:56.200 about is stuff getting like subsumed by capitalism, right, like 2:02:56.400 --> 2:02:58.160 becoming a part of the of the sort of capitalist 2:02:58.240 --> 2:03:01.360 like process and system. And this comes in stages, right, 2:03:01.440 --> 2:03:03.760 the first foremost subsumption where okay, so say you have 2:03:03.800 --> 2:03:09.240 a peasant, right, formal subsumption is where the peasant like 2:03:09.480 --> 2:03:11.480 enters the market for the first time and suddenly be 2:03:11.560 --> 2:03:13.920 instead of being a peasant, is not like a wage worker, right, 2:03:14.760 --> 2:03:17.520 And you know, in in in this phase, right, capitalism 2:03:17.560 --> 2:03:19.920 has entered induced fhere, Right, someone who was a peasant 2:03:20.040 --> 2:03:22.760 who was like not doing capital stuff before, right, who 2:03:22.840 --> 2:03:25.080 was going for self production and had like fetal dues 2:03:25.080 --> 2:03:29.840 and obligations, is now a wage worker. But you know, 2:03:29.880 --> 2:03:31.320 and then they're selling the goods of the market, but 2:03:31.360 --> 2:03:33.360 the actual process of production, which is like, okay, so 2:03:33.480 --> 2:03:35.960 like how a peasant is like how how how you 2:03:36.200 --> 2:03:38.880 your former peasant new agriculture worker like grows their crops 2:03:38.960 --> 2:03:42.640 and what crops they grow, and like when they decide 2:03:42.680 --> 2:03:45.080 to work in In this first stage, this is still 2:03:45.080 --> 2:03:48.200 the peasant's choice. Um that ends with real subsumption where 2:03:48.600 --> 2:03:51.880 all control over the workplace that like workers had had 2:03:52.040 --> 2:03:53.800 is completely destroyed. And you're just you know, okay, this 2:03:53.960 --> 2:03:55.680 this is this is what like we think of as 2:03:55.720 --> 2:03:57.960 a regular job, right We're like, okay, the way the 2:03:58.040 --> 2:03:59.440 job works as your boss sells you want to do 2:04:00.280 --> 2:04:02.920 I your your entire labor process has been like fully 2:04:02.960 --> 2:04:05.480 integrated into into into this sort of like broader capitalist 2:04:05.480 --> 2:04:08.400 production processes that you have no control over. And this 2:04:08.560 --> 2:04:10.360 is what's been happening in the informal economy of the 2:04:10.400 --> 2:04:12.640 past few decades in Brazil. It's a real subsumption, right 2:04:12.800 --> 2:04:16.760 like and and you know what like it stuff that 2:04:16.840 --> 2:04:20.400 had formerly been you know, like people taking wage labor, 2:04:20.600 --> 2:04:24.280 but the sort of structure of how people do the 2:04:24.560 --> 2:04:27.040 jobs that they're doing, right, was still up to them. Uh, 2:04:27.200 --> 2:04:29.800 this has been ending. And the way it's been ending 2:04:29.920 --> 2:04:33.200 is through basically the degree of control offered but to 2:04:33.280 --> 2:04:37.000 employers by apps like uber of like yeah, the control 2:04:37.040 --> 2:04:38.800 of these apps give you over the informal economy, and 2:04:38.840 --> 2:04:43.000 the results have been absolutely catastrophic. Um. On the one hand, 2:04:43.040 --> 2:04:45.440 the sort of limited autonomy that the formal economy like 2:04:45.560 --> 2:04:48.080 that the informal economy used to give you has been 2:04:48.160 --> 2:04:51.800 crushed by sort of sorry, has been crushed by algorithmic 2:04:51.880 --> 2:04:54.200 control from gay economy apps that you know, like track 2:04:54.360 --> 2:04:56.160 where you are and tell you where you need to 2:04:56.240 --> 2:04:58.560 go and how how fast you have to get there, 2:04:58.560 --> 2:05:00.200 and like what lights you have to run in order 2:05:00.200 --> 2:05:04.920 to get there, and also increasingly, uh, these big workers 2:05:04.960 --> 2:05:07.480 are being squeezed by a new level of middle management 2:05:07.520 --> 2:05:10.040 who work basically the same way as like gang like 2:05:10.120 --> 2:05:12.320 the old gang bosses that control Chinese labor. In return 2:05:12.360 --> 2:05:15.640 to the twentieth century, where you have these guys who 2:05:15.680 --> 2:05:18.960 act as like private recruiting companies and foremen for workers 2:05:19.560 --> 2:05:22.120 who okay, so you go to this place, right, These 2:05:22.160 --> 2:05:23.640 people are like, okay, I will give you a job, 2:05:23.760 --> 2:05:25.840 and they negotiate. There are the people who negotiate directly 2:05:25.840 --> 2:05:27.720 with the company and take money from the company and 2:05:27.760 --> 2:05:30.680 then use that money to sort of like pay the employer. 2:05:30.920 --> 2:05:34.560 And this this you know, this sucks, right because on 2:05:34.680 --> 2:05:36.840 the one hands, you have all of the bad parts 2:05:36.880 --> 2:05:38.880 of a regular job, which there's a guy who tells 2:05:38.920 --> 2:05:40.600 you what to do, and if you don't do what 2:05:40.760 --> 2:05:43.240 he tells you, like, you get fired. And then you 2:05:43.320 --> 2:05:45.360 have all the bad parts of an informal sector job, 2:05:45.560 --> 2:05:47.600 which is that you don't have any legal protections that 2:05:47.720 --> 2:05:51.240 like workers with formal contracts have. And you know, the 2:05:51.440 --> 2:05:53.640 the the the effect of this has been to create 2:05:53.720 --> 2:05:59.200 super hell for like, vast, vast swaths of the Brazilian 2:05:59.280 --> 2:06:05.040 working class. And this has been a just unbelievably catastrophic 2:06:05.160 --> 2:06:11.240 sort of disaster for for Brazilian politics. But okay, you 2:06:11.400 --> 2:06:13.880 know what else is creating super hell for the Brazilian 2:06:13.920 --> 2:06:18.600 working class? I mean not the products and services that 2:06:18.640 --> 2:06:25.800 support this podcasting the American working class now now yeah, okay, 2:06:25.880 --> 2:06:31.760 here's sucking ads. Ah, we're back. Wow. I for one 2:06:32.280 --> 2:06:36.800 think everything's gonna be fine. The fact that Lula won 2:06:36.880 --> 2:06:41.680 this resounding victory over j R. Bolsonaro by by nearly 2:06:41.760 --> 2:06:44.640 a whole percentage point is going to mean none of 2:06:44.680 --> 2:06:48.520 these problems that you're talking about. Are everything's again yea, nope? 2:06:49.240 --> 2:06:52.800 And you know, okay, so, speaking speaking of reasons why 2:06:52.840 --> 2:06:55.200 this will not be a problem. Again the sort of 2:06:55.280 --> 2:06:58.440 like financialization bullshit. This this this doesn't just like stick 2:06:58.600 --> 2:07:01.000 in sort of labor process like this stuff spreads to 2:07:01.120 --> 2:07:03.760 the like to social movements as well, which are in 2:07:03.800 --> 2:07:06.360 a lot of cases, like very old and powerful Brazilian 2:07:06.360 --> 2:07:09.480 social movements are reduced to these sort of like state 2:07:09.520 --> 2:07:12.720 back financialized husks of them form ourselves where like you know, 2:07:13.240 --> 2:07:15.080 you have like you have social movements that are literally 2:07:15.160 --> 2:07:18.800 like issuing bonds to like fund their their members businesses. 2:07:19.280 --> 2:07:21.880 You have social movements that are like, okay, if if 2:07:21.920 --> 2:07:24.920 you show up to assemblies, you can like earn points 2:07:25.120 --> 2:07:26.840 so that you can get access to like be put 2:07:26.880 --> 2:07:29.040 on a waiting list for like a government rent stabilized 2:07:29.040 --> 2:07:32.200 department or something like it is a ship show. And 2:07:32.360 --> 2:07:34.520 and this whole process sort of leads to the hollowing 2:07:34.520 --> 2:07:37.440 out of the Brazilian left. And you know, and and 2:07:37.600 --> 2:07:39.960 and as as as as the left is sort of 2:07:40.120 --> 2:07:44.200 like being sort of like torn apart from the inside out, 2:07:44.680 --> 2:07:46.840 and and as you get into sort of like two 2:07:47.160 --> 2:07:49.240 eleven and twelve dozen thirteen is the afrezilian E comonomy 2:07:49.240 --> 2:07:53.720 begins to slow. You get Brazil's version of the sort 2:07:53.760 --> 2:07:57.600 of like movement of the squares like two thirteen uprisings, 2:07:58.560 --> 2:08:01.840 which is going to be waged against a hostile all okay, 2:08:01.920 --> 2:08:06.440 a pretty hostile PT governments. Like there there's a sort 2:08:06.480 --> 2:08:08.840 of public show by delmar roussoft like, yeah, I know, 2:08:08.920 --> 2:08:12.320 I support the protests when they're not violent, and we're 2:08:12.320 --> 2:08:16.320 gonna do stuff. But okay, this goes badly very quickly. 2:08:16.440 --> 2:08:19.800 So these protests start over these like raises and public 2:08:19.840 --> 2:08:21.640 trends and in the cost of public transportation, like the 2:08:22.080 --> 2:08:25.680 fair cost raises in a bunch of cities, and very 2:08:25.840 --> 2:08:29.280 quickly there are like three million people in the street. Um. 2:08:31.000 --> 2:08:34.480 The sort of conventional narrative about what happened here is 2:08:34.680 --> 2:08:39.640 that so the protests started off leftists, right, but then 2:08:39.720 --> 2:08:42.440 the leftists get run out as as the protest sort 2:08:42.440 --> 2:08:44.560 of keep going by these sort of like foe a 2:08:44.680 --> 2:08:48.360 political like conservative nationalists that like take them over and 2:08:48.560 --> 2:08:51.200 turn them from this sort of like leftist call for 2:08:51.320 --> 2:08:53.800 like a more egalitarian society and for like the right 2:08:53.840 --> 2:08:56.440 to the city and like stopping evictions and stuff like 2:08:56.480 --> 2:08:59.560 that to this sort of like anti corruption crusade against PT. 2:08:59.840 --> 2:09:01.840 And it's the PT against the LaRussa and against sort 2:09:01.840 --> 2:09:05.200 of like the left itself and okay, this is true, 2:09:05.720 --> 2:09:08.880 like as far as it goes, UM, we'll be talking 2:09:08.960 --> 2:09:13.400 more about the impeachment campaign like next episode. But there's 2:09:13.440 --> 2:09:16.280 more going on here. And the more going on here 2:09:16.560 --> 2:09:19.120 is that she isn't thirteen. There are massive protests, like 2:09:19.160 --> 2:09:23.000 eight hundred thousand people, um protest a Confederation Cup, which 2:09:23.000 --> 2:09:25.840 is which is like the soccer tournament hosted by like 2:09:25.920 --> 2:09:27.920 that that that's present, Like it's one of the things 2:09:27.960 --> 2:09:30.000 that precedes the World Cup. I don't know. I'm not 2:09:30.080 --> 2:09:34.360 a soccer nowher, but yeah, and there's the massive proaests 2:09:34.360 --> 2:09:37.520 against them, and they are just unbelievably brutally suppressed, Like 2:09:37.640 --> 2:09:42.520 fifty thousand cops are sent out to like stop this 2:09:42.600 --> 2:09:47.080 ship and they beat the absolute ship out of everyone. 2:09:47.920 --> 2:09:50.800 And to understand why these movements were crushed and how 2:09:50.840 --> 2:09:52.120 the right was able to take power, we need to 2:09:52.120 --> 2:09:56.000 talk about the Brazilian police. So I think you know 2:09:56.240 --> 2:09:59.440 most of our listeners you to me like we we 2:09:59.520 --> 2:10:02.560 are famili you with the American police, right, Like, if 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:05.120 you're listening to the show, odds are decently good. You 2:10:05.200 --> 2:10:07.040 have seen them beat your friends, your bloody polpe. You 2:10:07.120 --> 2:10:09.120 have seen them taste the parents of children locked into 2:10:09.160 --> 2:10:11.880 building with the mass shooter. You have seen them slaughter men, women, 2:10:11.920 --> 2:10:13.640 and children in the street for no other reason than 2:10:13.680 --> 2:10:16.280 they can because they're a fascist des squad fused with 2:10:16.400 --> 2:10:19.640 organized crime outfits funded by putting guns to the heads 2:10:19.640 --> 2:10:22.280 of the American working class air descendants of slave catchers, 2:10:22.280 --> 2:10:24.440 working each and every day to keep the American racial 2:10:24.840 --> 2:10:28.120 hierarchy firmly intact. Okay, we can put it that way. 2:10:28.200 --> 2:10:31.200 It sounds bad, but I don't know, Like I like 2:10:31.360 --> 2:10:35.920 Law and Order, so like the TV show, Yeah, you 2:10:36.000 --> 2:10:40.080 know that they have you've never watched Law and Order, 2:10:40.360 --> 2:10:45.440 s VU, you're missing out on all of the good 2:10:45.560 --> 2:10:48.120 law and order. Uh that is that the one with 2:10:48.560 --> 2:10:52.000 chick And I honestly don't know. There's like forty different 2:10:52.080 --> 2:10:54.560 Law and Order shows. It's impossible to keep track of them, 2:10:55.880 --> 2:10:58.040 but there is that. There is that one goth chick 2:10:58.600 --> 2:11:01.440 that they brought in because our grandparents would think she 2:11:01.560 --> 2:11:05.520 was hot. Yeah. I think. I think the power of 2:11:05.600 --> 2:11:09.520 goth chicks to extend the police budgets. Yeah, it's it's 2:11:09.680 --> 2:11:12.560 it's fun and good and Okay, you know, like we 2:11:12.720 --> 2:11:15.960 we we know how bad the US police are. Um, 2:11:16.160 --> 2:11:18.240 I'm gonna read this from the l A Times quote, 2:11:18.520 --> 2:11:21.840 Brazilian cops kill at nine times the rate of US 2:11:21.920 --> 2:11:31.920 law enforcement. Nine times. That's pretty bad. Yeah, you know, 2:11:32.280 --> 2:11:34.080 and I think it's worth pointing out here that Brazil 2:11:34.200 --> 2:11:36.520 was the last country in this hemisphere to evolve slavery. 2:11:36.640 --> 2:11:39.640 Like they abolished it like twenty years after the fucking 2:11:39.840 --> 2:11:43.080 US did, right, And so you know, when when you're 2:11:43.080 --> 2:11:45.680 thinking about what the Brazilian police is, take everything you 2:11:45.760 --> 2:11:51.080 know about the American police and understand that the Brazilian police, right, Okay, 2:11:51.080 --> 2:11:53.280 So with the American police, right, the murder dial goes 2:11:53.360 --> 2:11:55.680 up to eleven. With the Brazilian police, that murder dial 2:11:55.760 --> 2:12:00.280 goes up to And that's where they've pranked it to. Here, 2:12:00.360 --> 2:12:02.880 here's some crime think. In two thousand fourteen, Brazil's prison 2:12:02.960 --> 2:12:06.640 population became the third largest in the world, with five 2:12:06.720 --> 2:12:09.680 hundred and seventy thousand prisoners, just like six hundred something 2:12:09.720 --> 2:12:12.640 thousand prisoners today, most of whom are black. During the 2:12:12.720 --> 2:12:22.040 PT administration, this figure increased by six hundred and twenty Yeah, Like, 2:12:22.720 --> 2:12:24.960 and this this, this is a part of the PT 2:12:25.400 --> 2:12:30.680 that people really sort of tiptoe around, which is that 2:12:30.920 --> 2:12:37.320 they preside over like a a regime of mass executions 2:12:37.360 --> 2:12:44.520 and mass incarceration that is like utterly atrocious and and 2:12:44.760 --> 2:12:47.360 as an aside here, um okay, so like there are 2:12:47.400 --> 2:12:49.320 probably some of our listeners whose things that they want 2:12:49.320 --> 2:12:52.600 to go into electoral politics. And if you are doing this, 2:12:53.000 --> 2:12:56.720 you have one job, like solely, you have one responsibility, 2:12:56.760 --> 2:12:59.240 and your job is to fucking annihilate the police. Your 2:12:59.320 --> 2:13:01.400 job is to just joy them so utterly and completely 2:13:01.480 --> 2:13:03.160 that their very name is spent as a curse in 2:13:03.200 --> 2:13:05.200 the street by people who make the sign of cross 2:13:05.240 --> 2:13:07.560 for protection every time they think about them. Like by 2:13:07.600 --> 2:13:09.400 the end of your first term, these people need to 2:13:09.400 --> 2:13:12.360 be living in fucking hovels in the woods without access 2:13:12.400 --> 2:13:13.960 to a weapon that even as deadly as at two 2:13:14.040 --> 2:13:16.000 by four, And every time they attempt to enter a town, 2:13:16.280 --> 2:13:18.680 people need to be like chasing them and throwing rocks 2:13:18.720 --> 2:13:21.240 at them. And if you do not do this, you 2:13:21.320 --> 2:13:24.120 will live like Lula has to see literally everything you 2:13:24.200 --> 2:13:26.120 have ever done crumbled beneath the way to way fascism 2:13:26.200 --> 2:13:29.200 that is too terrible to imagine, and you will also 2:13:29.320 --> 2:13:33.000 experience in your lifetime. And instead of doing this, the 2:13:33.080 --> 2:13:35.200 PT is like, fuck it, no, We're going to use 2:13:35.240 --> 2:13:38.360 the police to stamp up protest against the mega events 2:13:38.440 --> 2:13:41.680 that they're they're putting on. The police repression around the 2:13:41.760 --> 2:13:45.360 World Cup is like arguably worse than the stuff for 2:13:45.400 --> 2:13:48.600 the Confederation Cup. In order to prepare for the World Cup. 2:13:48.960 --> 2:13:51.480 The PT stage is just like massive social cleansing campaign. 2:13:51.520 --> 2:13:53.600 We talked about this in our sports episode. Like they 2:13:54.720 --> 2:13:57.680 they carry out mass evictions against both like regular people 2:13:57.760 --> 2:13:59.960 and also against like like there's there's a bunch of 2:14:00.000 --> 2:14:01.240 sort of left is and also sort of just like 2:14:01.240 --> 2:14:03.800 regular people who squat in Brazil right, Like up a 2:14:03.880 --> 2:14:06.040 huge part of the social movements have been about seizing 2:14:06.080 --> 2:14:09.080 property and building like building stuff on its seasoning, evanded 2:14:09.120 --> 2:14:11.200 buildings and yeah, this stuff all gets victs that can 2:14:11.200 --> 2:14:15.160 be replaced the World Cup businesses. It's you know, like 2:14:15.280 --> 2:14:17.480 what what is happening here is it's like all the 2:14:17.560 --> 2:14:20.800 violence gentrification. But in the span of like a year, right, 2:14:21.040 --> 2:14:24.760 the pag are literally rolling German tanks to the favelas 2:14:25.200 --> 2:14:27.560 because like, you know, subtlety is something that happens to 2:14:27.600 --> 2:14:30.640 other people, not like to reality. And you know, as 2:14:30.640 --> 2:14:32.879 we talked about before, they're putting them under literally military 2:14:32.960 --> 2:14:36.000 occupation with colonial troops who were like fighting in Haiti. 2:14:36.240 --> 2:14:40.800 Right evict two hundred and fifty thousand people for this 2:14:40.920 --> 2:14:43.920 fucking tournament. Um here, here's some other ship they did. 2:14:44.120 --> 2:14:46.760 This is from a series of pieces by Brazilian anarchist 2:14:46.800 --> 2:14:51.360 group called Fictional Faction. In twelve, the federal government and 2:14:51.440 --> 2:14:54.120 FIFA signed the General Law of the World Cup to 2:14:54.280 --> 2:14:56.920 ensure that the country would quote uphold FIFA standards of 2:14:57.040 --> 2:15:00.400 organization during the two thirteen Confederation Cup and the two 2:15:00.400 --> 2:15:05.560 dozen fourteen World Cup. This agreement constituted an enormous legal 2:15:05.600 --> 2:15:08.720 offense to the Brazilian people, entailing the suspension of mode 2:15:08.760 --> 2:15:11.680 of many constitutional rights and norms that are already precarious 2:15:11.760 --> 2:15:14.880 for most. For example, a court established to rule within 2:15:15.000 --> 2:15:17.600 fourty eight hours on strikes that occurred within the World Cup. 2:15:18.280 --> 2:15:20.960 Workers lost the right to strike or fight for improvements, 2:15:20.960 --> 2:15:24.760 while FIFA avoided paying taxes on businesses within Brazilian territory. 2:15:25.600 --> 2:15:29.160 A special Secretary to public security for great events was created, 2:15:29.520 --> 2:15:32.640 breaking the laws stipulating that justice may not have special 2:15:32.680 --> 2:15:37.000 sponsors or clients you demand priority. The privatization of public 2:15:37.040 --> 2:15:40.040 space was legitimized by the creation of exclusive streets for 2:15:40.080 --> 2:15:44.040 FIFA and as partners in which even local businesses were 2:15:44.080 --> 2:15:46.600 required to keep your doors closed within the exclusion zone 2:15:46.600 --> 2:15:50.720 around the stadium. The laws allowed FIFA tag intervened directly 2:15:50.800 --> 2:15:53.200 in the market without the oversight of the state. FIFA 2:15:53.360 --> 2:15:56.160 was able to stipulate the price to charge for tickets, 2:15:56.200 --> 2:15:58.959 suspending the usual half price for students and any application 2:15:59.000 --> 2:16:03.360 of consumer protection out. In addition, more than twenty thou 2:16:03.560 --> 2:16:06.520 people were allowed to work as unregulated volunteers during the 2:16:06.560 --> 2:16:10.280 World Cup. These volunteers did not receive the protections of 2:16:10.320 --> 2:16:15.080 basic labor rights and operated outside of constitutional norms in 2:16:15.120 --> 2:16:19.600 a situation in situations analogous to slavery. According to Brazilian law, 2:16:19.800 --> 2:16:22.560 these exceptions to safety and labor the Labor and City 2:16:22.640 --> 2:16:24.720 law are supposed to be limited to volunteer work for 2:16:24.840 --> 2:16:29.440 nonprofit institutions that have a quote civic, cultural, education, recreational 2:16:29.520 --> 2:16:34.680 and social assistance purposes, which hardly described FIFA. The state 2:16:34.800 --> 2:16:38.080 even overlooked the use of child labor and activities related 2:16:38.120 --> 2:16:39.959 to the games, such as the role of ball boy, 2:16:40.040 --> 2:16:42.200 which had been banned in Brazil since two thousand four. 2:16:43.080 --> 2:16:46.160 So this goes great um and and the thing, you know, 2:16:46.200 --> 2:16:48.240 so this happens, he doesn't fourteen under del Marissof. But 2:16:48.280 --> 2:16:51.440 it's worth noting like this is Lula's project fund the beginning, right, 2:16:51.840 --> 2:16:54.160 like he he has been fighting to get Brazil the 2:16:54.240 --> 2:16:58.280 World Cup, like sense sent sense, like the opening for 2:16:58.360 --> 2:17:01.760 applications to get this World Cup obriginal to happen. And 2:17:02.520 --> 2:17:05.240 what you know, this, this, this campaign to get the 2:17:05.280 --> 2:17:08.840 World Cup takes the form of a literally all out 2:17:08.920 --> 2:17:12.920 war against leftist protesters, squatters, workers, people living in favelas, 2:17:12.920 --> 2:17:14.720 people who are literally all those at the same time. 2:17:15.320 --> 2:17:17.160 Who are you know, supposed to be the PT space 2:17:17.720 --> 2:17:21.039 And this is what the PT spends literally the rest 2:17:21.120 --> 2:17:24.800 of its time and power doing, right, like Dilma Roussef 2:17:24.840 --> 2:17:28.960 implements much of mousterity measures like this, the spending police 2:17:29.000 --> 2:17:31.240 powers like this is the ship that the PT is doing, 2:17:31.400 --> 2:17:34.440 like literally as the Grim Reaper was coming to their door, 2:17:34.600 --> 2:17:39.360 like two months before delmar Roussef is impeached, she passed 2:17:39.400 --> 2:17:42.359 a pair of a pair of anti terrorism laws targeted 2:17:42.360 --> 2:17:46.520 at protesters. And Okay, we're gonna we'll go into the 2:17:46.560 --> 2:17:49.320 impeachment next episode, but I want to close on this 2:17:51.240 --> 2:17:54.400 was preventing this from happening, right, preventing the Party of 2:17:54.480 --> 2:17:59.640 workers from fucking rolling tanks through the streets in in, in, in, 2:17:59.800 --> 2:18:03.920 in fucking working class neighborhoods, like this is the actual 2:18:04.080 --> 2:18:06.640 sort of beating of of and this is this is 2:18:06.680 --> 2:18:09.000 the actual sort of principal politics of anti capitalism like that. 2:18:09.120 --> 2:18:11.200 This this is why there is a sort of rigid 2:18:11.240 --> 2:18:14.119 anarchist opposition to the state. Right. This isn't just ideological purity, 2:18:14.680 --> 2:18:16.760 is the concrete knowledge that any other path is death, 2:18:16.800 --> 2:18:19.680 because we literally cannot continue to do as the PT 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:22.279 has been doing for the past twenty years to produce 2:18:22.320 --> 2:18:25.280 her own grave diggers. Literally, the ecosystems we draw our 2:18:25.360 --> 2:18:27.800 life from will not survive if we keep doing this. 2:18:27.920 --> 2:18:29.560 It does not matter how many people you live you 2:18:29.640 --> 2:18:32.240 lift out of poverty. If you do not actually destroy 2:18:32.320 --> 2:18:36.080 the class system, capitalism and fascism will force them back 2:18:36.120 --> 2:18:37.920 into poverty. All of the poverty, like almost all the 2:18:37.959 --> 2:18:40.400 poverty games that Lula gained during this entire time and 2:18:40.440 --> 2:18:43.400 officers were destroyed in four years of will scenarrow. Every 2:18:43.480 --> 2:18:45.280 day that the state is allowed to exist, every day 2:18:45.280 --> 2:18:47.040 the class system is allowed to exist, it creates a 2:18:47.080 --> 2:18:49.440 thousand more bull scenarrows. It creates a thousand bol scenarrows 2:18:49.440 --> 2:18:50.920 and the police, that creates them, of the armies, it 2:18:50.959 --> 2:18:53.080 creates them in corporations, it creates them on the streets, 2:18:53.480 --> 2:18:56.080 and they have to be destroyed or this world will 2:18:56.120 --> 2:18:58.640 fucking burn. And in the next episode we are going 2:18:58.720 --> 2:19:00.720 to watch a thousand person of pull and aros burned 2:19:00.720 --> 2:19:06.640 the entire country. And that that is my incredibly angry 2:19:06.800 --> 2:19:13.720 response to this absolute fucking bullshit. That is the reason, 2:19:14.520 --> 2:19:16.240 like our are are a lot of the reasons why 2:19:17.560 --> 2:19:24.240 everything is completely fucked cool. Well, everybody, have a happy 2:19:25.200 --> 2:19:30.320 start of November, and hopefully Brazil isn't in a state 2:19:30.360 --> 2:19:34.240 of civil war by the time you listen to this episode. Yeah, 2:19:34.400 --> 2:19:37.520 I update at the end of the episode. I don't 2:19:37.560 --> 2:19:40.320 think there's been any chance. Remember, remember, folks, if you 2:19:40.640 --> 2:19:45.680 somehow take control of the political apparatus in Brazil, dismantled 2:19:45.720 --> 2:19:49.040 the police in the military, Um, that's that that should be. 2:19:49.240 --> 2:19:51.000 That should be a lesson for you. I know a 2:19:51.120 --> 2:19:53.200 lot of you are on the verge of taking power 2:19:53.400 --> 2:19:57.640 in Brazil, So hopefully hopefully that message will get out. Yeah, 2:19:57.640 --> 2:20:01.080 and I mean in general, don't fund them, like, don't 2:20:01.120 --> 2:20:03.640 give them more money, don't spend a bunch of money 2:20:03.680 --> 2:20:07.280 buying them German tanks, Like, well what do you do? Okay, 2:20:07.560 --> 2:20:10.280 like why what? Why are we focusing on German tanks? 2:20:10.320 --> 2:20:14.440 They make fine tanks. Okay, here we have here. Can 2:20:14.480 --> 2:20:16.560 you name a single good thing a German tank has 2:20:16.600 --> 2:20:21.560 ever been used for? Yeah, I'm guessing. Yeah, they did 2:20:21.680 --> 2:20:24.600 some communists, probably, I don't. I don't know. Um, let's 2:20:25.120 --> 2:20:31.160 live anyway, killed a lot of Englishmen anyway and Canadians. 2:20:47.320 --> 2:20:50.360 It could happen here. It's it's it could happen here. 2:20:50.480 --> 2:20:54.440 It's the podcast that's happening right now. Um yeah, it's 2:20:54.520 --> 2:20:56.960 it's about things that you know about. It's there are 2:20:57.040 --> 2:21:00.880 our third and final episode about the Brazilian elections. It's me, Chris, 2:21:01.080 --> 2:21:04.120 It's it's I'm here with James Stout. Hello, Hi, Chris. 2:21:05.400 --> 2:21:08.920 So we have we have an update on on this situation, 2:21:09.000 --> 2:21:12.240 which is that j R. Bosonaro Okay, he's still he's still. 2:21:12.360 --> 2:21:16.039 I don't think has publicly announced defeats, but he apparently 2:21:16.120 --> 2:21:21.000 told the Supreme Court quote it's over, So he seems 2:21:21.000 --> 2:21:24.040 to have committed defeat, which has not stopped a bunch 2:21:24.080 --> 2:21:28.200 of his followers from calling for a military coup. Yeah, 2:21:28.720 --> 2:21:32.680 from the people I still seem to be blocking roads, right, Yeah, 2:21:35.080 --> 2:21:41.000 it's happening. I don't know. I yeah, it's it's it's 2:21:41.040 --> 2:21:43.720 sort of unclear to me to what extent his followers 2:21:43.920 --> 2:21:46.560 are going to back down. I don't think there's really 2:21:46.680 --> 2:21:49.480 much chance for a military coup at this point, like 2:21:49.720 --> 2:21:52.080 they seem to have just lost. I read something earlier 2:21:52.160 --> 2:21:54.920 about Bolsonaro making plans to like so it's like there's 2:21:54.920 --> 2:21:56.720 like a like a sash thing you're supposed to hand 2:21:56.760 --> 2:21:59.320 over to the next president, and he was making plans 2:21:59.400 --> 2:22:01.720 to not be in the country when Lula took office. 2:22:02.040 --> 2:22:04.840 I was gonna have his vice president ended over instead, 2:22:05.240 --> 2:22:08.520 which is like this is like the most whiny baby 2:22:08.600 --> 2:22:12.840 ship I've ever seen, which is like, god, I want 2:22:13.520 --> 2:22:17.960 what a loser? Holy fuck, like first as a tragedy, 2:22:18.040 --> 2:22:20.600 and then as fast and then as fast yea, and 2:22:20.720 --> 2:22:24.840 continually as fast, like that's that's how the right operates, right, Yeah. 2:22:24.920 --> 2:22:29.480 I actually almost had that, Like I I actually almost 2:22:29.920 --> 2:22:32.800 started the Lula episode with that quote, and then I 2:22:32.959 --> 2:22:35.040 was like, well, his return. I was like that, that's 2:22:35.120 --> 2:22:38.800 that's too mean to say about Lula, Like it hasn't 2:22:38.840 --> 2:22:43.640 been first yet, Like yeah, but Bulsonaro is oh boy, Yeah, 2:22:43.760 --> 2:22:45.480 he's going to go and spend more time with a 2:22:45.560 --> 2:22:50.200 novel coronavirus. It's withdrawing from politics. You know. I heard 2:22:50.240 --> 2:22:51.640 that there's a great line in one of the things 2:22:51.720 --> 2:22:54.280 I was talking about that Milton's in the fog piece 2:22:54.320 --> 2:22:57.560 from Ilbow yesterday where they they talked about like I 2:22:57.640 --> 2:23:01.160 forget the exact quote, it was something like but Bolso 2:23:01.240 --> 2:23:04.280 it wasn't It's not just that Bolsonaro failed the like 2:23:04.440 --> 2:23:07.280 failed to respond to coronavirus, is that he was a 2:23:07.400 --> 2:23:09.760 vector for the for coronavirus. And I was like, yeah, 2:23:10.480 --> 2:23:13.880 this is this is both literally and metaphorically true, Like 2:23:14.360 --> 2:23:20.920 several of the outbreaks are just from Bolsonaro. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, real, 2:23:21.040 --> 2:23:25.039 real piece of shit. Um yeah yeah, So today we're 2:23:25.040 --> 2:23:29.440 gonna talking about the very specific so we we We've 2:23:29.440 --> 2:23:32.640 been last episode talking about sort of like the the 2:23:32.959 --> 2:23:36.040 enormous army of grave diggers that the PT had sort 2:23:36.040 --> 2:23:39.320 of built around them, and this episode is going to 2:23:39.400 --> 2:23:42.000 be about like how their grave was actually sort of 2:23:42.160 --> 2:23:48.000 built and then filled in. Um so I talked about 2:23:48.080 --> 2:23:52.320 in episode one. Um there was in twousd five. I 2:23:52.320 --> 2:23:54.680 think I might have actually accidentally said six in the 2:23:54.720 --> 2:23:57.039 original episode, but it dealsn't five. There's just a giant 2:23:57.080 --> 2:24:00.920 corruption scandal involving the Workers Party that like shakes all 2:24:01.000 --> 2:24:04.680 up Brazil and basically the the short version of it 2:24:04.800 --> 2:24:06.280 is that a bunch of senior members of the PC 2:24:06.400 --> 2:24:10.000 were accused of bribing members of the Central Centrow, who 2:24:10.080 --> 2:24:13.160 is like Brazil sort of like perennial elite corruption faction, 2:24:13.320 --> 2:24:17.840 to like buy their votes to get bills passed, which honestly, 2:24:17.959 --> 2:24:20.400 like I'm okay with this, like that We're gonna talk 2:24:20.400 --> 2:24:22.960 about some corruption later that like does suck. Uh, This 2:24:23.200 --> 2:24:26.000 I think is fine, Like I'm I am, I am okay, 2:24:26.720 --> 2:24:28.840 Like I I'm gonna put this on the record at me, 2:24:29.040 --> 2:24:32.040 Christopher Wong, I am okay with literally just buying the 2:24:32.160 --> 2:24:35.120 votes of like weird corrupt right wingers to get them 2:24:35.120 --> 2:24:38.560 to vote for legislation that's actually good. Like whatever, I 2:24:38.640 --> 2:24:43.920 don't care about this, like this is bullshit, Like who cares? Um? 2:24:44.160 --> 2:24:50.200 But that that said, I I okay. So this entire episode, 2:24:52.840 --> 2:24:54.600 like well look at the first like three quarters episode, 2:24:54.600 --> 2:24:56.080 this is this is this episode is like a lot 2:24:56.160 --> 2:24:59.920 about corruption, and before we need to go any for 2:25:00.000 --> 2:25:03.240 other like we need to talk about like what corruption 2:25:03.360 --> 2:25:06.879 actually is and about the politics of it. So Okay, 2:25:06.879 --> 2:25:09.320 I want to say this as someone who lives in Okay. 2:25:09.320 --> 2:25:12.160 So I think most our listeners understand that Chicago is 2:25:12.200 --> 2:25:14.720 notoriously corrupt. I didn't grow up in Chicago. I grew 2:25:14.800 --> 2:25:18.280 up in Chicago's even more corrupt suburbs. Like I I 2:25:18.560 --> 2:25:23.440 literally watched a mayor sell physically sell city Hall to 2:25:23.520 --> 2:25:28.200 the highest bidder, Like she actually literally physically sold city 2:25:28.240 --> 2:25:31.440 Hall like this. This is the kind of ship you 2:25:31.520 --> 2:25:35.120 get out in the suburbs, Like it is fucking mind boggling, right, 2:25:35.240 --> 2:25:37.760 like that that that that that wasn't my town, but 2:25:37.920 --> 2:25:41.920 like I have seen some ship, right And Okay. The 2:25:42.040 --> 2:25:43.920 thing that the thing I can say about government corruption 2:25:43.959 --> 2:25:45.640 is that there are two kinds of people in the world. 2:25:45.959 --> 2:25:49.360 There are people like Chicagoans who understand that every single politician, 2:25:49.680 --> 2:25:52.360 no matter, like, every single politician whatsoever, is going to 2:25:52.520 --> 2:25:55.440 Robbie blind because they're all corrupt. And you know, there's 2:25:55.440 --> 2:25:57.520 a sort of like a more analytical cularreya to this, 2:25:57.600 --> 2:26:00.600 which is that like corruption, corruption is just a structural 2:26:00.680 --> 2:26:03.400 tendency of the state, right, It's it's a product of 2:26:03.560 --> 2:26:05.920 state officials like having access to the state's enormous supply 2:26:05.959 --> 2:26:08.200 of resources. It's a product of the kind of structural 2:26:08.280 --> 2:26:11.440 incentives that like being in a state produces, and it's 2:26:11.480 --> 2:26:13.120 a it's a product of the fact of the state, 2:26:13.120 --> 2:26:17.160 you know, acquires resources to violence and you know. Okay, 2:26:17.200 --> 2:26:20.000 so there's people who understand this on various levels, right, 2:26:20.480 --> 2:26:23.080 Like I mean, this is a genuinely thing about of cocos, 2:26:23.120 --> 2:26:26.040 Like everyone gets it, Like you don't have to convince people. 2:26:26.600 --> 2:26:28.320 And then there's a bunch of people like like the 2:26:28.440 --> 2:26:31.200 other category of people and people who genuinely think that 2:26:31.360 --> 2:26:34.120 like politics is about people debating political principles and that 2:26:34.240 --> 2:26:36.560 like if we just make slightly better arguments and like 2:26:36.640 --> 2:26:39.440 have slightly better land use policies of politicians who literally 2:26:39.520 --> 2:26:42.760 spends all day taking bribes and developers or like somehow 2:26:42.879 --> 2:26:45.960 end homelessness or something or that like somehow like like 2:26:46.480 --> 2:26:48.880 like a corruption a matter of political princess. Like no, no, 2:26:49.200 --> 2:26:51.360 they're all that they're all doing this to you, Like 2:26:51.959 --> 2:26:55.879 you guys, you kind of understand that. Yeah, It's it's 2:26:56.040 --> 2:26:58.680 very funny. And it's like we don't get enough credit 2:26:58.720 --> 2:27:01.640 for our cruption in San Diego, like right, yeah, and 2:27:01.840 --> 2:27:08.000 run by the Sea as it's very funny to see 2:27:08.040 --> 2:27:10.680 people being like, oh, there can't be corruption because identity 2:27:10.720 --> 2:27:15.160 politics this or because not Donald Trump. Right then, like 2:27:15.360 --> 2:27:18.320 this is the nature of the state, especially the state 2:27:18.400 --> 2:27:21.480 under capitalism, especially stated a capitalism in the United States. 2:27:22.080 --> 2:27:24.200 Is that like you don't get funk all unless you 2:27:24.280 --> 2:27:28.199 pay for it. Yeah, although I will say this corruption 2:27:28.240 --> 2:27:30.800 as a policy of the state is essentially trans ideological. 2:27:30.879 --> 2:27:33.080 Like the reddest communist, the brownest fascist, and the most 2:27:33.160 --> 2:27:35.560 bleeding heart red, white and blue capitalists all take bribes, 2:27:35.720 --> 2:27:37.360 they all give contracts with their family, and they all 2:27:37.360 --> 2:27:39.840 steal money from the government. Like you can tell this 2:27:40.000 --> 2:27:42.360 by the fact that the US is literally like the 2:27:42.520 --> 2:27:45.039 US just made it legal to give like they made 2:27:45.040 --> 2:27:46.880 it legal for a corporation to give money to a 2:27:46.920 --> 2:27:48.600 candidate in order to have the vote a certain way. 2:27:48.600 --> 2:27:52.160 This is legal. Nazi Germany corrupt as ship, the USS 2:27:52.160 --> 2:27:55.040 are famously insanely corrupt like this. This is not this 2:27:55.200 --> 2:27:57.680 is not actually a product of ideology. It's it's it's 2:27:57.680 --> 2:27:59.480 it's it's just it's just a sort of structural like 2:28:00.040 --> 2:28:01.640 tendency of the state. And it doesn't meant like the 2:28:01.680 --> 2:28:04.480 military kaderships are corrupt like the fun like the like 2:28:04.640 --> 2:28:06.840 the parliamentic democracies are corrupted, like this is this is 2:28:06.879 --> 2:28:08.600 just this is just like how the state works, right, 2:28:09.240 --> 2:28:14.240 um and and the like. So political corruption genuinely isn't 2:28:14.440 --> 2:28:17.040 that interesting, right, Like the actual politics of it, like 2:28:17.200 --> 2:28:19.920 it's not that interesting. Like it's just people just corrupt, right, 2:28:20.480 --> 2:28:23.000 What is interesting is anti corruption politics. And we need 2:28:23.040 --> 2:28:25.240 to get this out of the way immediately. It is 2:28:25.280 --> 2:28:29.080 simultaneously true that like almost no one openly supports corruption, 2:28:29.240 --> 2:28:32.480 like it's it's it's it's like almost impossible to find 2:28:32.600 --> 2:28:34.640 anyone who will come out on the record and say 2:28:34.640 --> 2:28:37.840 they're pro corruption, like like you can't do it right, 2:28:37.920 --> 2:28:39.840 And it's and it's also true that like every single 2:28:39.879 --> 2:28:41.800 one of these people on the across the entire political 2:28:41.840 --> 2:28:45.400 spectrum is corrupt and you know, and and and and 2:28:45.520 --> 2:28:48.960 the you know and and no, no politician is actually 2:28:49.000 --> 2:28:51.199 anti corruption. This. This is something that's very very important 2:28:51.200 --> 2:28:53.880 to understand. None of these people are sucking anti corruption this. 2:28:54.040 --> 2:28:55.560 This is sort of this is one of lessons of Chicago, 2:28:55.600 --> 2:28:57.039 which is that all of the sort of anti corruption 2:28:57.080 --> 2:28:59.880 crusaders are like just as corrupt as people they're replacing. 2:29:00.720 --> 2:29:02.800 But this is part of the way. Like, uh, I 2:29:02.840 --> 2:29:05.880 don't want to go to extreme marcusa, but like the 2:29:06.320 --> 2:29:08.600 like this idea, this false choice, right the corruption and 2:29:08.600 --> 2:29:12.440 in itself creates a means for another person who is 2:29:12.480 --> 2:29:15.359 equally corrupt to enter simply by claiming to be anti corrupt, 2:29:15.560 --> 2:29:17.879 right like, and then this weekend just kind of continually 2:29:17.959 --> 2:29:19.760 wad up each other and claiming to be different and 2:29:19.840 --> 2:29:23.080 doing the same ship and people will embrace his fucking 2:29:23.160 --> 2:29:25.520 false choice. Yeah, and you know we're gonna see this 2:29:25.520 --> 2:29:26.960 in this story later on, I will give you a 2:29:27.040 --> 2:29:29.400 preview of where this is going. So Sergio Morrow, who 2:29:29.520 --> 2:29:32.000 is this judge who's like like Brazil's like great anti 2:29:32.040 --> 2:29:34.880 corruption crusader, uh, turns out to have been funding is 2:29:34.959 --> 2:29:38.320 quote unquote anti corruption investigations by selling illegally selling information 2:29:38.400 --> 2:29:40.440 to the FBI and then getting paid and find uh 2:29:40.800 --> 2:29:43.960 find money collected by the US and successful corruption prosecutions. 2:29:44.520 --> 2:29:48.680 He also is going to like very blatantly and pretty 2:29:48.720 --> 2:29:53.840 openly take a job as the as Brazil's Justice minister 2:29:54.560 --> 2:30:00.920 in exchange for putting Bolton's political opponents in prison. Magnificent. Okay, Yeah, 2:30:01.000 --> 2:30:05.520 and and you know, so okay, what's the thing that's 2:30:05.520 --> 2:30:08.040 important about this, right is that anti corruption is not 2:30:08.240 --> 2:30:10.720 a real politics, right, Like it's not it's not an 2:30:10.720 --> 2:30:13.880 actual real sense of political political positions. Right. What it 2:30:14.160 --> 2:30:16.600 is is the set of politics you can rooms with. 2:30:17.000 --> 2:30:19.000 But it turns out is really really good at conning 2:30:19.080 --> 2:30:22.680 routs because people really fucking hate corruption, and and that 2:30:22.800 --> 2:30:24.520 the thing, the thing, the thing that being like an 2:30:24.959 --> 2:30:27.600 an anti corruption quote unquote candidate does is it lets 2:30:27.680 --> 2:30:31.160 anyone like appear to be the sort of like populous 2:30:31.240 --> 2:30:33.440 champion of the people against the corrupt elite. And this 2:30:33.600 --> 2:30:35.840 is really useful to the right into sort of mean, 2:30:35.879 --> 2:30:37.360 not just to the rime, it's really useful to sort 2:30:37.400 --> 2:30:40.680 of like bourgeois like capitalist politicians in general, because there 2:30:40.720 --> 2:30:42.119 are a lot of times where in order to sort 2:30:42.120 --> 2:30:44.840 of protect their interests, you know, or protect the interests 2:30:44.840 --> 2:30:47.080 of like their specific faction of the ruling class, they 2:30:47.120 --> 2:30:48.600 need to win an election, and they need to win 2:30:48.640 --> 2:30:50.040 the sort of hearts of mines of the people who 2:30:50.080 --> 2:30:52.920 see that the world sucks and like reflectively hate quote 2:30:53.000 --> 2:30:55.280 unquote the establishment because they know they're getting screwed. And 2:30:55.320 --> 2:30:57.960 the easiest way to sort of con these people is 2:30:58.600 --> 2:31:01.920 to take up the politics of antique ruption it's it's, it's, it's, it's. It's. 2:31:01.920 --> 2:31:05.959 It's like the the absolute picture perfect neoliberal politics, right, 2:31:06.000 --> 2:31:09.680 Like Rudy Giuliani, for example, Um, god is start going 2:31:09.760 --> 2:31:12.720 after the mob in New York and you know, and 2:31:12.879 --> 2:31:14.800 what what either, right? Really because he goes after the 2:31:14.800 --> 2:31:16.680 mob is the interruption guy and then he replaces them 2:31:16.720 --> 2:31:21.480 with like even more efficient and extractive neoliberal bureacratic parasites. Yeah, 2:31:21.840 --> 2:31:24.800 and it's perfect, like yeah, in terms of near liiberalism, right, 2:31:24.840 --> 2:31:28.480 in terms of completely avoiding a class analysis, because you 2:31:28.520 --> 2:31:31.080 can you can appeal to people who are genuinely oppressed 2:31:31.120 --> 2:31:33.240 and marginalized by the system, right by saying I'll go 2:31:33.320 --> 2:31:36.120 against this corrupt system which is oppressing in marginalized and you, 2:31:36.160 --> 2:31:38.039 but also to the bourgeois because you can say, oh, 2:31:38.520 --> 2:31:40.920 the reason you're sucking business is not a successful as 2:31:40.920 --> 2:31:42.840 the one is corruption. So to just vote for me 2:31:43.000 --> 2:31:45.160 and we'll sort that out and you can continue exploiting 2:31:45.200 --> 2:31:48.280 the workers who am also appealing to. Yeah, and and 2:31:48.640 --> 2:31:52.360 you know, like Giuliani is specifically like he is his 2:31:52.480 --> 2:31:55.240 name is just literally a punchline now, right, Like it's 2:31:55.280 --> 2:31:57.680 it's not it's not even worth talking about him. Fucking 2:31:58.120 --> 2:32:00.760 like trumping on a cigar doing an ad first a 2:32:00.800 --> 2:32:03.880 guard company in the middle melodio right like like but 2:32:04.040 --> 2:32:06.120 but but you know if they're selling flip flops now, 2:32:06.200 --> 2:32:08.440 isn't that something like that? But but that's the thing, 2:32:08.520 --> 2:32:10.880 Like the anti corruption stuff was really really good for 2:32:11.000 --> 2:32:15.600 his career, and you know, this is the poll does 2:32:15.640 --> 2:32:18.039 anti corruption is the politics at the Brazilian right finally 2:32:18.120 --> 2:32:20.280 figures out as like the only thing that got out 2:32:20.280 --> 2:32:23.200 the workers partty drug or not now like insan five, 2:32:23.240 --> 2:32:25.040 the corruption case brings down a whole bunch of sort 2:32:25.080 --> 2:32:27.879 of like high profile PT party members, but it doesn't 2:32:27.959 --> 2:32:30.959 touch Lula himself, who is like he has this rep 2:32:31.160 --> 2:32:32.920 like he basically similar to Reagan, is just like the 2:32:32.959 --> 2:32:37.480 teflon president. Everything just bounce off of him. But you know, 2:32:37.640 --> 2:32:40.200 the Rights and five really thinks that they've got him 2:32:40.959 --> 2:32:43.080 and they're like, Okay, we're gonna crush him this next election. 2:32:43.120 --> 2:32:45.360 Everything's gonna go back to normal. And then you know, 2:32:45.560 --> 2:32:48.240 and it is true that from two compared to two 2:32:48.240 --> 2:32:51.200 thou too Lula does have less support than two six. 2:32:51.440 --> 2:32:54.600 He goes from of the vote to a whopping sixty 2:32:54.680 --> 2:33:01.520 percent of the vote. So okay, so this dude work, right, 2:33:02.240 --> 2:33:04.400 but the right still sees it like this is the 2:33:04.520 --> 2:33:06.080 only thing they've been able to come up with. It 2:33:06.160 --> 2:33:09.240 like actually damages the PT at all. And and she's 2:33:09.240 --> 2:33:11.480 also in fourteen a judge named Sergio Morrow, who have 2:33:11.560 --> 2:33:13.560 we've our Morrow? Who again we have given you the 2:33:13.600 --> 2:33:16.000 spoiler This is like this is one of the most 2:33:16.040 --> 2:33:18.960 corrupt dudes, and like the history of Brazilian politics. But 2:33:19.640 --> 2:33:22.960 he he goes after he finds like a different corruption 2:33:23.080 --> 2:33:24.640 ring to go after that he's not a part of. 2:33:24.800 --> 2:33:26.600 And and I think it's it's important to understand sort 2:33:26.640 --> 2:33:29.240 of from the outside of this right that like this 2:33:29.360 --> 2:33:33.960 anti corruption stuff is essentially like a newer faction or 2:33:34.000 --> 2:33:37.200 like a slightly different faction of the Brazilian ruling class 2:33:37.280 --> 2:33:40.360 going after another faction of the Brazilian ruling class. So 2:33:40.720 --> 2:33:44.000 he finds he starts this thing that it becomes known 2:33:44.040 --> 2:33:48.640 as Lava Jatto or Operation car Wash UM. And what 2:33:48.760 --> 2:33:52.320 moral is going after is this little legitimately genuinely enormous 2:33:52.320 --> 2:33:55.000 corruption ring surrounding Petro Boss, which is brazili state owned 2:33:55.000 --> 2:33:58.440 oil company UM. And the investigation leads to the arrests 2:33:58.640 --> 2:34:01.600 of an enormous number of government officials, Like there's like 2:34:01.879 --> 2:34:04.959 some of the richest people in Brazil go to jail, 2:34:05.280 --> 2:34:09.000 like and it is true that like like there is 2:34:09.360 --> 2:34:11.280 an enormous amount of coruption, Like there are billions and 2:34:11.320 --> 2:34:13.160 billions of dollars that that are being sort of stolen 2:34:13.200 --> 2:34:16.080 from this oil company right through sort of like contracts 2:34:16.280 --> 2:34:21.600 and like payoffs and stuff. Um, but we also get 2:34:21.680 --> 2:34:24.560 to some real like lepers eating people's faces. Party ship 2:34:24.720 --> 2:34:27.360 here as well, where Okay, so Chils in thirteen deal 2:34:27.400 --> 2:34:30.279 with russef signs a law that massively expands police powers 2:34:30.320 --> 2:34:34.039 that includes, in particular, allowing them with no strings attached, 2:34:34.080 --> 2:34:35.680 to offer plea bargains of people to get that they 2:34:35.680 --> 2:34:39.000 confess the stuff and like give the cops information they 2:34:39.080 --> 2:34:41.760 want to hear, which is, like Jenny Winely, really unethical 2:34:41.920 --> 2:34:44.119 because for a lot of reasons, right, like the whole 2:34:44.120 --> 2:34:46.120 plea bargaining system is like the reason like one of 2:34:46.160 --> 2:34:48.160 the reasons the whole USS system is completely sucked up 2:34:48.480 --> 2:34:50.720 because everyone just fucking please out instead of going to 2:34:50.800 --> 2:34:53.040 trial because they know they know they're like every everyone 2:34:53.120 --> 2:34:55.080 is pretty sure they're gonna lose, and so people, you know, 2:34:55.160 --> 2:34:57.440 people will just pleader ship that they didn't do because 2:34:57.520 --> 2:34:59.480 they have no chance of winning the case. It's completely 2:34:59.520 --> 2:35:02.080 fucked up. And den Lar Russo's like, nah, yeah, fuck it, 2:35:02.200 --> 2:35:06.560 like we're gonna sign this, like you know, and I 2:35:06.800 --> 2:35:09.120 like I get that, like she she was responding to 2:35:09.240 --> 2:35:10.960 like the protests, and I get that she thought it 2:35:11.000 --> 2:35:14.200 would mostly be used against like fucking protesters or some ship. 2:35:14.320 --> 2:35:16.840 But like, who did you think this was gonna be 2:35:17.000 --> 2:35:21.800 used against? Yet? Wait? Why, like come on, like seriously, 2:35:26.959 --> 2:35:30.840 just It's like, it is simultaneously true that there was 2:35:30.879 --> 2:35:35.400 like an incredibly coordinated, sophisticated like like a joint American 2:35:35.480 --> 2:35:39.520 Brazilian like intelligence and like just the state operation to 2:35:39.560 --> 2:35:41.840 bring down the PT. It's also true that the PT, 2:35:42.240 --> 2:35:44.600 like like the reason they were able to be decapped 2:35:44.680 --> 2:35:47.120 so like so easily is that like they'd spent the 2:35:47.200 --> 2:35:49.840 last like six years like firing rounds over and over 2:35:49.840 --> 2:35:53.879 again into their own knees. So like, Okay, these things 2:35:53.920 --> 2:35:55.480 are both through at the same time. But okay, and 2:35:55.600 --> 2:36:01.280 so loveto like evisceerates an enormous part sort of a 2:36:01.360 --> 2:36:04.880 section of the Brazilian ruling class, but it very quickly 2:36:04.959 --> 2:36:07.440 becomes clear that it's being used as a political weapon 2:36:07.480 --> 2:36:09.520 against Delmar Russef and the PT, despite the fact that 2:36:09.560 --> 2:36:13.080 like literally every Brazilian paul like party is involved with this. 2:36:13.280 --> 2:36:18.040 Like I think the pso L might be like the 2:36:18.120 --> 2:36:20.840 only major Blurzilian political party who wasn't involved in this, 2:36:21.080 --> 2:36:22.920 and like that's because I don't think they had anyone 2:36:22.959 --> 2:36:26.800 who was senior enough to do it. So like you know, 2:36:28.640 --> 2:36:31.480 but but but you know everyone instead like just is 2:36:31.560 --> 2:36:33.240 using this to go is like very clearly using this 2:36:33.280 --> 2:36:37.880 to go after the PT. The problem is that like 2:36:39.680 --> 2:36:41.560 and this is this is gonna be a perennial problem 2:36:42.400 --> 2:36:46.400 with these investigations is that they can't actually directly dale 2:36:46.440 --> 2:36:49.960 Delmo Russef or Lulu with doing anything that they have 2:36:50.080 --> 2:36:55.080 real problems with this. Um. You know, Delma wins re 2:36:55.160 --> 2:36:57.040 election to US in fourteen, but he also fifteen there 2:36:57.080 --> 2:37:00.640 are these as Lavata was like going and there's this 2:37:00.800 --> 2:37:04.040 enormous fucking press fury around it. Um, there are these 2:37:04.120 --> 2:37:07.600 massive sort of anti corruption protests demanding that like she resigned. 2:37:07.640 --> 2:37:09.400 That's ripped up by like again, like the right wing 2:37:09.440 --> 2:37:14.360 media goes just completely batshit in this period. Um, and 2:37:14.760 --> 2:37:18.480 you know, okay, so again morals running into this problem 2:37:18.520 --> 2:37:21.160 that he can't find anything that Dylan Russof did that 2:37:21.240 --> 2:37:25.440 was illegal, so he starts relying on political theater instead. 2:37:25.520 --> 2:37:28.800 He and and uh, he starts stages these this like 2:37:29.000 --> 2:37:32.920 enormous series of raids on like Lula's house as nonprofit, 2:37:33.200 --> 2:37:36.680 like he's like like his brother's business, and you know, 2:37:36.760 --> 2:37:39.520 with the entire press court like they're right like with 2:37:39.800 --> 2:37:42.480 the stage for all these raids. They drag him off 2:37:42.520 --> 2:37:45.080 to like jail for questioning, but again, like they don't 2:37:45.080 --> 2:37:48.600 really have anything. They kind of like invent this case 2:37:49.480 --> 2:37:52.200 about Lula based on some convoluted ship about a property 2:37:52.240 --> 2:37:55.480 that he didn't own. It's like, you know, the the 2:37:55.720 --> 2:37:59.119 thing here basically is that, like as with all corruption scandals, 2:37:59.240 --> 2:38:01.360 right this this is a fight between parts of the 2:38:01.440 --> 2:38:04.480 ruling class. Right, Like the actual details of who's taking 2:38:04.520 --> 2:38:07.480 money from who are essentially irrelevant because that's not what 2:38:07.560 --> 2:38:10.560 actually matters, right, What matters here is that like the 2:38:10.640 --> 2:38:12.680 sort of rooting prosecutors have decided they're going to destroy 2:38:12.720 --> 2:38:15.880 the PT, and you know they're the PT has helped 2:38:15.920 --> 2:38:19.280 them do it at every step. Um, it's just the 2:38:19.400 --> 2:38:23.240 prosecutors right there. It's like there's there's like press plus prosecutors, 2:38:24.160 --> 2:38:27.200 plus plus a bunch of political parties too. It's so 2:38:28.080 --> 2:38:30.119 not to like draw a comparison where it's not necessarily 2:38:30.240 --> 2:38:32.080 entirely valid, but like, look at the United Kingdom, right, 2:38:32.080 --> 2:38:36.000 we have Boris Johnson like monumentally fucking up the COVID response, 2:38:36.320 --> 2:38:39.039 tons of people die, and it's not that that brings 2:38:39.160 --> 2:38:41.400 him down. It's that he had a suitcase of wine 2:38:41.440 --> 2:38:44.640 in a karaoke party, like because at some point, but 2:38:44.760 --> 2:38:48.000 it's the appearance, right, It's this political theater of accountability, like, 2:38:48.240 --> 2:38:50.360 but you're not actually accountable to the people who you 2:38:50.520 --> 2:38:52.160 let down on the people who you lied to your 2:38:52.160 --> 2:38:57.240 accountable to, like seventeen media editors Murdoch, right, and every 2:38:57.600 --> 2:39:03.160 Brazil has its own versions of Murdoch who are like, yeah, 2:39:03.320 --> 2:39:06.680 I can only imagine like people people to who if 2:39:06.760 --> 2:39:08.840 I if I said my actual opinions on them, Like 2:39:09.600 --> 2:39:15.000 the the the FCC would specifically start regulating podcasts because like, 2:39:15.520 --> 2:39:19.600 oh boy, all these people should redacted parody, etcetera, etcetera, 2:39:20.480 --> 2:39:25.680 just like a five minute bleap here. So okay, but 2:39:25.879 --> 2:39:28.600 but again so okay. They have this problem again which 2:39:28.600 --> 2:39:32.240 that they can't really get delmar Roussa for anything, and 2:39:32.400 --> 2:39:35.360 so what happens instead is that the Brazilian Senate is 2:39:35.440 --> 2:39:39.880 sort of like scrambling for something they can use, and 2:39:39.959 --> 2:39:43.040 what they eventually impeached Delmar Roussa for is this like 2:39:43.760 --> 2:39:48.920 accounting procedure thing basically that like everyone does. And when 2:39:48.920 --> 2:39:52.240 I say everyone does, like almost every previous president like 2:39:52.440 --> 2:39:56.039 every every like every single like like uh, what's it called? 2:39:56.080 --> 2:40:00.760 Like every single like uh, why am I blink? Governor 2:40:00.920 --> 2:40:03.000 is at the right word? Yeah, like the people who 2:40:03.040 --> 2:40:05.400 are like the heads of states. Yeah, I think like 2:40:05.440 --> 2:40:07.480 all the governors do this, like fucking literally everyone in 2:40:07.520 --> 2:40:09.960 Brazilian politics does is including some of the people who 2:40:10.080 --> 2:40:16.440 are signing like the fucking uh uh impeachment thing. But 2:40:16.800 --> 2:40:20.960 they remove her from this and okay, so like a 2:40:21.040 --> 2:40:23.480 part of the like the sort of sort of like 2:40:23.720 --> 2:40:29.120 like decrepit and despise neoliberal right takes power. But the 2:40:29.200 --> 2:40:32.760 normal part thing here is that she's Delia Russof is 2:40:32.760 --> 2:40:37.040 impeached by her own allies, right, she is impeached like 2:40:37.520 --> 2:40:41.560 Michael Timer, the guy who replaces Russf like winds up 2:40:41.760 --> 2:40:46.120 as presidents because Dilma Russof bade him her VP. Like 2:40:47.280 --> 2:40:49.800 it's just like you know and this this is this 2:40:49.920 --> 2:40:51.760 is dating back to like this this is like really 2:40:51.879 --> 2:40:54.560 old sort of pet political maneuver stuff dat dating back 2:40:54.600 --> 2:40:57.200 to like Lula finally winning out over the sort of 2:40:57.240 --> 2:40:59.360 PC basis in two thousand two, right where he's able 2:40:59.400 --> 2:41:01.240 to convince them to like have a sort of like 2:41:01.440 --> 2:41:05.240 conservative guy like be his running mate. And here this 2:41:05.400 --> 2:41:07.520 this is this is where this finally goes to ship 2:41:07.959 --> 2:41:10.480 because the PT is making alliances with sort of like 2:41:10.560 --> 2:41:12.560 set the Right parties and all these corruption parties, and 2:41:12.600 --> 2:41:17.680 it's like, okay, you allied yourself, Like I I understand 2:41:17.760 --> 2:41:20.000 the reason they were doing this was that the sort 2:41:20.000 --> 2:41:22.000 of central which is like the sort of corruption parties 2:41:22.240 --> 2:41:24.200 have enough votes that you kind of have to work 2:41:24.280 --> 2:41:27.680 with them. But also like what did you expect was 2:41:27.680 --> 2:41:31.640 gonna happen? Like did you did you really not expect 2:41:31.720 --> 2:41:34.880 that the leoparage, We're gonna eat your face? Like okay, 2:41:35.240 --> 2:41:37.880 it's you know, like it's really like okay, like you 2:41:38.040 --> 2:41:40.520 let a mosquito into your house and you are now 2:41:41.000 --> 2:41:44.520 like fucking Pikachu facing because they because the mosquito bait you. 2:41:44.640 --> 2:41:49.240 It's like really like you know, and this all comes 2:41:49.280 --> 2:41:50.720 back to sort of like the things I've been talking 2:41:50.720 --> 2:41:52.920 about in last two episodes about like the inherent contradiction 2:41:53.160 --> 2:41:55.400 of being a leftist and happy to having to keep 2:41:55.400 --> 2:41:56.800 the state and having to run a state. We have 2:41:56.840 --> 2:41:59.240 to keep the economy going, right, which again it means 2:41:59.280 --> 2:42:01.039 that you have to make sure the capitalists get money. 2:42:01.720 --> 2:42:04.120 And Lulu could just pay these people off, like literally 2:42:04.240 --> 2:42:07.040 or figuratively, because he was used benefiting from the commodity boom, right, 2:42:07.280 --> 2:42:09.480 But then when the Chinese economy goes under and suddenly 2:42:09.560 --> 2:42:11.360 the money dries up because the quality boom is over, 2:42:11.400 --> 2:42:13.640 and the Brazilian economy starts to collapse, like you know, 2:42:13.720 --> 2:42:17.280 there's nothing to pay off the boozie with, and you know, 2:42:18.400 --> 2:42:22.360 Deli results like she's trying to pay them off, but 2:42:22.600 --> 2:42:24.160 you know, in order to fund it. Now, now she's 2:42:24.160 --> 2:42:28.280 doing austerity and that's sapping her, and that's sapping her 2:42:28.320 --> 2:42:30.440 base because you know, okay, you have to choose one 2:42:30.480 --> 2:42:31.680 or the other. But she's not been again. But she's 2:42:31.680 --> 2:42:33.920 also not able to pay off enough of the bored 2:42:33.959 --> 2:42:36.720 to stop this from coming, and so they off her 2:42:38.120 --> 2:42:42.800 and you know, okay, so the pt PC supporters will 2:42:42.840 --> 2:42:45.120 describe what happens like that this impeachment is a coup, 2:42:45.360 --> 2:42:48.240 which is like true, like as far as it goes like, 2:42:48.440 --> 2:42:50.680 it is true that like a bunch of absolute like 2:42:50.760 --> 2:42:55.240 psychopaths like just like overthrew the democratically elected president on 2:42:55.879 --> 2:42:58.920 for bullshit. I actually think it's less of a coup 2:42:59.000 --> 2:43:01.720 than the next the next thing we're gonna get to. Um. 2:43:02.560 --> 2:43:05.680 But yeah, so okay, so the product of this is 2:43:05.760 --> 2:43:10.000 that Michael Timer, who was like just an unfathomable neoliberal coool, 2:43:10.640 --> 2:43:16.360 like I really like, oh god, like it's really one 2:43:16.440 --> 2:43:19.480 of the worst people ever. Um who again russef picked 2:43:19.520 --> 2:43:23.360 us her VP, becomes President Intel spent the next two 2:43:23.440 --> 2:43:29.320 years like so if Draco Malfoy grew up, this is 2:43:29.400 --> 2:43:32.120 what he would look like. Yeah, no, it's it's it's 2:43:32.240 --> 2:43:34.920 really incredible. Yeah you you you you do owe it 2:43:34.959 --> 2:43:38.040 to yourself to look up. Yeah, it's man is yeah, 2:43:38.720 --> 2:43:44.000 very streamlined. But otherwise yeah, he just like he just 2:43:44.360 --> 2:43:49.360 looks like like exactly who he is. Yeah. Yeah, I 2:43:49.480 --> 2:43:54.280 cannot believe this guy succeeded in politics when he looks like, yeah, 2:43:54.400 --> 2:43:57.320 an evil snake. Yeah. I think he also got arrested 2:43:57.520 --> 2:44:02.080 for being even more like ok so, like like there 2:44:02.200 --> 2:44:04.960 is corruption going on in the PT timer is the 2:44:05.080 --> 2:44:09.440 corruption party, right, Like he actually goes down eventually, he 2:44:10.040 --> 2:44:14.920 is like unfathomably corrupt. Like he goes down for like 2:44:16.680 --> 2:44:20.520 what he took, Like it's a bribe from a meat packer, 2:44:20.720 --> 2:44:23.280 right that guy, Yeah, that was one of these. He 2:44:23.600 --> 2:44:29.120 funneled like a hundred and eighty million dollars into like 2:44:29.320 --> 2:44:31.600 his politically like into like his friends. And it's like 2:44:32.240 --> 2:44:35.400 like unfat like okay, and this stuff genuinely sucks, right, 2:44:35.440 --> 2:44:37.960 Like it actually does suck that literally hundreds of millions 2:44:38.000 --> 2:44:44.480 of dollars are being just like fucking stolen by these goals, right, Um, yeah, 2:44:44.600 --> 2:44:48.240 especially in a country where like people genuinely struggled to 2:44:48.280 --> 2:44:50.720 get by every single yeah, and and and and I 2:44:51.120 --> 2:44:53.880 think it's worth mentioning, like like the level of poverty 2:44:53.920 --> 2:44:58.160 that we're talking about here is like like again like 2:44:58.240 --> 2:45:01.760 the people who don't have running water, people who live 2:45:01.920 --> 2:45:05.240 in deserts and like don't have water at all, Like 2:45:05.959 --> 2:45:09.840 it is really really bad. And you and and then 2:45:10.000 --> 2:45:13.959 you know you're you're you are watching just this bullshit 2:45:14.040 --> 2:45:22.280 happening right like this fucking like guy who God, just 2:45:22.440 --> 2:45:25.199 this is like absolute fucking demon just stealing a hundred 2:45:25.320 --> 2:45:28.640 like fifty billion dollars, right, yeah, it's like rich people 2:45:28.680 --> 2:45:33.760 playing monopoly with your fucking future and your children's future. Yeah, 2:45:33.920 --> 2:45:36.039 but you know, but but it again like tempered. Nobody, 2:45:36.040 --> 2:45:40.520 nobody fucking voted for this guy, right like, and he's 2:45:40.560 --> 2:45:45.200 just immediately starts implementing like unfathomable just atrocious austerity, and 2:45:45.600 --> 2:45:48.760 he like he has a seven percent of rating. Everyone 2:45:48.920 --> 2:45:53.800 is calling, yea, this is this is the second lowest. 2:45:54.120 --> 2:45:55.600 This is the second lowest group of ready I've ever 2:45:55.640 --> 2:45:58.240 seen for for a ruling politician, after Kim Jung Pill, 2:45:58.440 --> 2:46:02.600 who I think got down to three percent one day. 2:46:02.600 --> 2:46:04.400 I'm going to do an actual Kim junk Pill episode. 2:46:05.000 --> 2:46:07.760 I feel like you're within the error margin of any polling. 2:46:07.800 --> 2:46:10.920 Once you get into the single digits, no one likes you, 2:46:11.400 --> 2:46:14.440 like literally, like like remember like people like people from 2:46:14.560 --> 2:46:16.800 his own party want him to resign, right and he 2:46:16.840 --> 2:46:18.760 just doesn't. Just days in power because there's no one, 2:46:18.840 --> 2:46:20.600 no one can do anything about it. Because but you 2:46:20.720 --> 2:46:22.800 always get that right when you when you engage in 2:46:22.840 --> 2:46:26.160 this politics of corruption, the like sort of palace cups 2:46:26.200 --> 2:46:29.960 and interronicing, backstabbing will necessarily happen because like that is 2:46:30.000 --> 2:46:32.720 how you further your own career and therefore benefit more 2:46:32.800 --> 2:46:36.360 from the corruption. Right, Like again, see the clusterfuck that 2:46:36.520 --> 2:46:39.880 is the United Kingdom. Now do you know who else 2:46:40.000 --> 2:46:42.320 doesn't benefit from corruption like the rest of us. I 2:46:42.720 --> 2:46:45.400 don't think we can say that with any degree of 2:46:45.480 --> 2:46:52.320 certainty decrease it shall it's the products and services that 2:46:52.720 --> 2:46:58.360 support this podcast. Okay, and and we're back, um and Okay, 2:46:58.560 --> 2:46:59.720 this I think is a good at a time as 2:46:59.720 --> 2:47:07.800 any to mention that, like, okay, so lava Jotto is 2:47:08.120 --> 2:47:10.000 going on this entire time, right, this, this thing is 2:47:10.040 --> 2:47:12.080 going on for years and years and years and years, 2:47:12.640 --> 2:47:17.120 and it's reiterating that Lava Jotto is being illegally backed 2:47:17.160 --> 2:47:20.000 by the American Just Department, Justice Department, the SEC, the 2:47:20.080 --> 2:47:23.879 FBI probably all, I think, also the CIA, although weirdly 2:47:24.000 --> 2:47:26.320 this is okay, And and this is where things get 2:47:26.400 --> 2:47:30.480 very strange, because this, like from the documents that we've seen, 2:47:30.640 --> 2:47:34.000 there is some evidence the CIA handed them ship. The 2:47:34.080 --> 2:47:35.880 thing we have the most evidence for is actually the 2:47:35.959 --> 2:47:40.720 FBI running this coup. Weird. Yeah, it's very weird. What 2:47:40.879 --> 2:47:44.080 was happening basically is that Okay, so, the way American 2:47:44.120 --> 2:47:46.720 corruption laws work is that like if any money passes 2:47:46.760 --> 2:47:48.920 through like an American bank account, the FBI has the 2:47:48.920 --> 2:47:51.800 authority to go after them. And the FBI and the 2:47:51.879 --> 2:47:55.440 Justice Department fucking hate the PT and they're they're they're 2:47:55.520 --> 2:47:58.640 looking at Petro Boss and they're going like, this is 2:47:58.840 --> 2:48:00.840 so much fucking money we can get if we go 2:48:00.959 --> 2:48:03.280 after these people, and also we hate them, and and 2:48:03.360 --> 2:48:06.520 it's also worth nothing. Okay, So, uh, Sergio Morrow is 2:48:06.680 --> 2:48:09.640 like he's a Harvard guy, right, He's a Harvard guy. 2:48:09.680 --> 2:48:12.720 He was trained by a bunch of American police people, 2:48:12.920 --> 2:48:14.800 like he he is like he's like one of these 2:48:14.840 --> 2:48:17.480 sort of like he's he's a Nazi cool basically, right, 2:48:17.640 --> 2:48:19.560 but like he's like the the law version of a 2:48:19.600 --> 2:48:23.600 Nastic cool and so the the entire like and again 2:48:23.640 --> 2:48:25.480 it's it's funny like the FBI, in theory, is not 2:48:25.480 --> 2:48:27.000 supposed to be Like the FBI is supposed to be 2:48:27.040 --> 2:48:29.240 a domestic agency, which does not make them any better, 2:48:29.360 --> 2:48:31.080 by the way, but like they're they're not supposed to 2:48:31.160 --> 2:48:33.320 be going after like they're not supposed to be trying 2:48:33.320 --> 2:48:35.680 to overthrow the president of Brazil, but you know they are. 2:48:35.720 --> 2:48:39.440 And again, like they are taking down the Black panthers, 2:48:39.680 --> 2:48:44.880 increasing anti semitism, just the normal standard domestics. Yeah, shooting anarchists, 2:48:44.920 --> 2:48:54.040 shooting like possibly assassinating MLK. Um, yeah them, yeah not 2:48:54.320 --> 2:48:55.720 they're not supposed to be doing the four in cruise. 2:48:55.720 --> 2:48:57.800 That's the CIA job. But they're they're muscling into the 2:48:57.840 --> 2:49:01.720 CIA's territory here. Um. It's it's it's worth mentioning as 2:49:01.800 --> 2:49:08.520 well that like the Obama administration is heavily involved in this, right. Um. 2:49:09.240 --> 2:49:10.960 And you know, it turns out that by the time 2:49:11.000 --> 2:49:13.960 you get toy sixteen Trump ministrate tries amteen trusmistrations of power. 2:49:14.000 --> 2:49:17.400 They love this ship because it's Trump. It's like, wow, damn, 2:49:17.520 --> 2:49:21.680 who could have guessed? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and as 2:49:21.760 --> 2:49:24.000 and this is gonna come out. It's gonna come out later. Um. 2:49:24.680 --> 2:49:27.240 By this okay, this is the second time that Glenn 2:49:27.320 --> 2:49:29.680 Greenwald is just handed like one of the biggest news 2:49:29.680 --> 2:49:31.879 stories of the decade, like literally dropped on his lap 2:49:31.959 --> 2:49:34.480 and he gets to like, right about it is that Yeah, 2:49:34.600 --> 2:49:37.199 it comes out that like this stuff is being politically 2:49:37.280 --> 2:49:41.400 like very obviously politically motivated, like sorry Morrows, like openly 2:49:41.440 --> 2:49:45.879 cutting deals with Bolsonaro to the political persecutions. There's again 2:49:45.959 --> 2:49:49.120 again the stuff about how he's being paid by he's 2:49:49.160 --> 2:49:52.160 literally getting like the task Force is being funded by 2:49:52.160 --> 2:49:56.080 the FBI through these slush funds of fine money collected 2:49:56.080 --> 2:50:02.680 from Petro Boss. Like it's unbelievably shady ship. Um. Now, 2:50:02.800 --> 2:50:05.400 the entire time this is going on, Sergeo Morrow has 2:50:05.440 --> 2:50:09.680 been like illegally wire tapping Lula's conversations and leading them 2:50:09.720 --> 2:50:14.360 to the press to like destroy La. And politically it's 2:50:15.320 --> 2:50:17.400 and you know and like like operation car Washed, Like 2:50:17.640 --> 2:50:20.240 prosecutors are just like going on TV and telling the 2:50:20.440 --> 2:50:23.600 entire Brazilian public like, no, Lula is guilty, there's no 2:50:23.680 --> 2:50:27.160 doubt about it, and then she doesn't. Seventeen Morrow has 2:50:27.240 --> 2:50:30.400 Lula convicted. Now Lula appeals as on the grounds that 2:50:30.520 --> 2:50:33.600 like this is incredibly obviously a show trial, like but 2:50:33.720 --> 2:50:35.720 by the because there's a lot of you will read 2:50:35.760 --> 2:50:37.720 a lot of like the sort of liberal press in 2:50:37.800 --> 2:50:39.680 the US like fucking loves this ship and like she 2:50:39.720 --> 2:50:43.040 doesn't fourteen doesn't. He's the sixtees, somebody say seventeen, but like, 2:50:43.360 --> 2:50:46.119 but she doesn't seventeen. Even the sort of American liberal 2:50:46.200 --> 2:50:50.800 press is like, hey, you're running these trials too fast, 2:50:51.400 --> 2:50:54.960 Like these don't look like real trials anymore. Like he's 2:50:55.080 --> 2:50:57.320 like they're there's there's like it really is, like they 2:50:57.360 --> 2:50:59.200 stopped having even the pretense that it's not being show 2:50:59.240 --> 2:51:01.760 trials are just like committing people, convicting people, convicting people, 2:51:01.760 --> 2:51:03.800 convincing people. And like you know, in the Lula case, 2:51:03.879 --> 2:51:06.879 there's some interesting stuff which is that like, Okay, Morow 2:51:07.080 --> 2:51:11.360 doesn't have the legal jurisdiction to prosecute Lula here, like 2:51:11.920 --> 2:51:15.040 the crimes that were supposedly committed aren't committed in a 2:51:15.120 --> 2:51:18.480 place where where Barrow has any jurisdiction at all, like 2:51:18.640 --> 2:51:21.560 it's another state, and he just doesn't anyways, because he's 2:51:21.560 --> 2:51:24.720 just like fuck it, like whatever. And so it's more 2:51:24.800 --> 2:51:27.600 of a vibe when you oral city government. Yeah. Well, 2:51:27.640 --> 2:51:29.320 and and again like this is the thing, like people 2:51:29.360 --> 2:51:32.519 people get really really really hung up about legal technicalities 2:51:32.640 --> 2:51:34.880 and that ship and as we're about to see in 2:51:34.959 --> 2:51:37.960 that in in this case, right like that ship does 2:51:38.040 --> 2:51:41.480 not matter, right this this is entirely about sort of power, 2:51:41.560 --> 2:51:44.600 about power brokering and sort of like where where where 2:51:44.640 --> 2:51:47.160 the Brazilian elite is in a particular time, who's backing 2:51:47.280 --> 2:51:51.320 what Lula puts in a petition if he puts in 2:51:51.360 --> 2:51:54.080 a rid of habeas corpus that's like, hey, there's stuff 2:51:54.080 --> 2:51:55.880 in the constitution that's like, I shouldn't be put in 2:51:55.920 --> 2:51:58.640 prison until my appeals are done. And this goes to 2:51:58.720 --> 2:52:03.279 the Supreme Court, at which point a fucking Brazilian general 2:52:03.360 --> 2:52:05.680 who apparently be this this this apparently was planned by 2:52:05.720 --> 2:52:10.360 fifteen other generals. Uh who I I got a guy 2:52:10.560 --> 2:52:15.200 named Edward edwardo Vilas Bolas like literally sorts threatening the 2:52:15.240 --> 2:52:20.199 Supreme Court on Twitter like she's like he starts employing 2:52:20.240 --> 2:52:22.960 And this tweet is read on Globo, which is like 2:52:23.240 --> 2:52:26.160 the fucking like like big, big, biggest news network in Brazil. 2:52:26.320 --> 2:52:29.640 They like read out this tweet, like the subtext of 2:52:29.720 --> 2:52:31.600 which is, if you don't put Lulie in jail, we 2:52:31.640 --> 2:52:34.720 are going to do a coup. So they dragged Lula 2:52:34.760 --> 2:52:37.640 off to prison and they put him in solitary for 2:52:37.760 --> 2:52:43.320 five and eighty days, which is like yeah, yeah, they 2:52:43.920 --> 2:52:46.240 they they are like they are torturing the shot out 2:52:46.280 --> 2:52:54.360 of him. Um Jesus, yeah yeah yeah, living out there 2:52:54.440 --> 2:52:58.840 like fucking like you know, like previous generation of coups 2:52:58.840 --> 2:53:02.879 against Latin America, like chopping Victor Halla's hands off fantasy. Yeah, 2:53:02.920 --> 2:53:04.200 and like like I said, you know, I would say, 2:53:04.200 --> 2:53:07.440 it's like Lula Lula has was arrested by the military 2:53:07.480 --> 2:53:10.160 dictatorship in the eighties, right, but even though the military 2:53:10.160 --> 2:53:12.600 dictatorship only held him for thirty days and then let 2:53:12.680 --> 2:53:16.440 him go, and they're they're like they're trying to put 2:53:16.520 --> 2:53:18.240 him in prison the fourth things like it's originally seven 2:53:18.360 --> 2:53:20.640 years and then i s extended to twelve years um, 2:53:21.320 --> 2:53:22.720 and then there's this whole thing. But like she's also 2:53:22.760 --> 2:53:24.400 like not allowed to speak to the press during this time. 2:53:24.400 --> 2:53:27.040 And the reason this is happening is that, uh, if 2:53:27.080 --> 2:53:29.160 you're in prison, you can't run for president. And in 2:53:29.240 --> 2:53:31.760 jail's an eighteen. If Lula's run allowed to run for president, 2:53:31.800 --> 2:53:33.320 even with all the press ship, he is going to 2:53:33.440 --> 2:53:38.360 fucking stop literally anyone in the field. Yeah and yeah, 2:53:38.480 --> 2:53:41.640 so this is going up. But before we talk about 2:53:42.120 --> 2:53:44.680 the election a little bit and then sort of wind down, 2:53:44.720 --> 2:53:46.360 there's one more thing I want to talk about, which 2:53:46.360 --> 2:53:49.680 is that four days before Lula is arrested, Mariella Franco, 2:53:49.879 --> 2:53:53.480 who is a incredibly radical City City councilor and real 2:53:53.560 --> 2:53:58.040 dejan Narrow, is assassinated by death squad um. There there's 2:53:58.040 --> 2:54:02.039 a lot of coverage of like who she was sort 2:54:02.080 --> 2:54:04.040 of like there's lot of coverage of her story about 2:54:04.080 --> 2:54:06.440 how she's a black, lesbian woman who came who like 2:54:06.840 --> 2:54:09.199 was from an incredibly for poor family and the favelas 2:54:09.240 --> 2:54:10.440 and how she sort of like worked a way out 2:54:10.440 --> 2:54:13.960 to you politicians, but like they don't talk about you know, 2:54:14.320 --> 2:54:16.640 people will sort of obliquely mentioned her human rights work, 2:54:16.720 --> 2:54:18.480 or they'll talk a bit about how she's part of 2:54:18.560 --> 2:54:21.800 the PSOL, which is is leftist party that like, Okay, 2:54:21.840 --> 2:54:24.720 so I'm still I suppose it. I'm looking I'm so 2:54:24.879 --> 2:54:26.959 kind of hazy about their exactory. I think what happened 2:54:27.120 --> 2:54:30.360 was there was a group of PT of of PT 2:54:30.840 --> 2:54:34.400 like uh politicians who refused to vote for an austerity 2:54:34.440 --> 2:54:36.520 package the PT was trying to push through, and they 2:54:36.560 --> 2:54:37.880 got kicked out of the party for it, and they 2:54:37.920 --> 2:54:42.000 found at the ps O l um and you know, 2:54:42.280 --> 2:54:44.440 they they'll talk about sort of this stuff. What what 2:54:44.560 --> 2:54:46.920 they won't cover really is what she was actually doing. 2:54:47.560 --> 2:54:52.359 And I think this is like this is incredibly important 2:54:52.360 --> 2:54:54.240 because the thing she was actually doing was a bunch 2:54:54.240 --> 2:54:58.520 of very radical and unbelievably dangerous anti police activism, um so, 2:54:58.760 --> 2:55:00.920 and she doesn't. Eight. This is this again. Under Lula's 2:55:00.920 --> 2:55:03.199 Pizza government, that there was a re orientation of police 2:55:03.200 --> 2:55:06.520 strategy and the favelas tours this new program called Pacifying 2:55:06.560 --> 2:55:09.960 Police Units UPPs, and the idea was that instead of 2:55:10.040 --> 2:55:12.440 doing constant raids in the favelas and then leaving them, 2:55:12.480 --> 2:55:15.480 they were just gonna put them under like constant police occupation. 2:55:16.800 --> 2:55:21.240 And you know, like there's something like four hundred thousand 2:55:21.360 --> 2:55:23.800 people at a time are just living under these occupations. 2:55:24.720 --> 2:55:26.600 And in the beginning, it's supposed to be tied to 2:55:26.680 --> 2:55:28.440 like so like there's supposed to be like an expansion 2:55:28.480 --> 2:55:30.920 of like social services into the favelas and just supposed 2:55:30.920 --> 2:55:34.080 to be like community policing, and that just doesn't happen. 2:55:34.480 --> 2:55:36.280 And but he hasn't. Thirteen. They just like give up 2:55:36.280 --> 2:55:39.240 the pretense of doing any social work. And they found 2:55:39.320 --> 2:55:42.200 this thing called had the Good Groups of Proximity Police, 2:55:42.840 --> 2:55:45.760 which very quickly turned into just like fucking desk squads. 2:55:45.840 --> 2:55:47.680 But they're but they're they're they're both desk squads and 2:55:47.720 --> 2:55:50.640 they're also doing like stopping frisk ship and just like 2:55:50.760 --> 2:55:53.160 carassing random black people. There's they were just murdering people 2:55:53.200 --> 2:55:56.520 on the streets, um on a scale that is like 2:55:56.640 --> 2:55:58.520 it's worse than has been before, like that there were 2:55:58.520 --> 2:56:00.520 individual police unit. There's an individ to a police unit 2:56:00.560 --> 2:56:03.560 because a hundred and seventeen people in a year, like 2:56:03.840 --> 2:56:06.880 it is, it is horrible, right, And this is what 2:56:06.920 --> 2:56:09.560 I was talking about about the Brazilian police killing killing 2:56:09.600 --> 2:56:10.800 at a rate that's a eleven time tire in the 2:56:10.840 --> 2:56:14.000 American police, like it is. It is fucking atrocious, um. 2:56:15.240 --> 2:56:19.040 And there are some incredible videos of yeah, like it's 2:56:19.200 --> 2:56:23.199 fucked um and they're war with parts of their own population. Yeah, 2:56:23.640 --> 2:56:26.680 I mean I say this like this is this is 2:56:26.720 --> 2:56:30.200 one of those things about fascism, right, where like fascism 2:56:30.640 --> 2:56:34.240 like always kind of has works on the system of 2:56:34.240 --> 2:56:37.840 alliances between sort of like the police paramilitaries who are 2:56:37.879 --> 2:56:40.520 sort of tied to the police, and organized crime, and 2:56:41.040 --> 2:56:42.680 you know, like that there is an extent to which 2:56:42.720 --> 2:56:44.280 there are a bunch of gangs and the police are 2:56:44.320 --> 2:56:46.520 finding them. There's also an extent to which like everyone 2:56:46.640 --> 2:56:49.520 involved is just shaking down all of these fucking like 2:56:49.760 --> 2:56:54.440 unbelievably poor uh largely black, like working class people who 2:56:54.480 --> 2:56:59.800 are just getting fucking robbed every day it's horrible. Um yeah. 2:57:00.040 --> 2:57:03.240 And it's that where it might be a bit of 2:57:03.280 --> 2:57:05.560 a side by that we don't like need to fit 2:57:05.640 --> 2:57:07.520 in here, but in this case we can distribute it. 2:57:07.680 --> 2:57:10.119 But there's a I know that one of the big 2:57:10.200 --> 2:57:16.120 Brazilian prison gangs is like ostensibly leftist. They're like they 2:57:16.200 --> 2:57:20.120 called Red Command, right, yeah, I think I think is 2:57:20.160 --> 2:57:25.680 it really command anti? Yeah? So they they used to 2:57:25.800 --> 2:57:29.760 be Yeah, so okay, Red Command used to be like 2:57:30.280 --> 2:57:34.000 an m L group that was like a sort of 2:57:34.080 --> 2:57:37.640 like alliance between like regular people in prison and like 2:57:37.760 --> 2:57:41.080 left just people who've been put in prison command of Yeah, 2:57:41.200 --> 2:57:44.640 and it it does a similar thing to like like 2:57:44.760 --> 2:57:46.280 there are parts of the farc that go like this. 2:57:46.440 --> 2:57:47.959 There's a lot of there's a thing that happens when 2:57:48.160 --> 2:57:50.840 you're dealing with sort of armed groups like this, which 2:57:50.920 --> 2:57:54.480 is that Okay, So like a lot of the things 2:57:54.600 --> 2:57:57.160 that you do to get money as an armed group 2:57:57.280 --> 2:57:59.360 are things that are away to get money. So things 2:57:59.400 --> 2:58:01.400 like kidnapping is like entering the drug trade. And there's 2:58:01.400 --> 2:58:04.320 a lot of groups to start out ideological that just 2:58:04.680 --> 2:58:06.800 ceased to be ideological and the people well, which is 2:58:06.840 --> 2:58:08.360 in the drug right now, and this is kind of 2:58:08.400 --> 2:58:10.640 what happens here with these people. But okay, there's actually 2:58:10.640 --> 2:58:14.760 this actually does tie into this because so Marilla Franco 2:58:14.879 --> 2:58:17.520 like spends her entire life like fighting these people. She 2:58:17.680 --> 2:58:19.840 she she gets she has she gets a sociology degree, 2:58:19.959 --> 2:58:21.960 and like what she's doing and like while she's doing 2:58:22.040 --> 2:58:24.800 sociology stuff is she's like making reports and like like 2:58:24.959 --> 2:58:27.000 telling everyone like what these people are doing, like what 2:58:27.120 --> 2:58:30.080 what what the funding police are doing? And when she dies, 2:58:30.440 --> 2:58:35.000 like there's a fucking judge who's like, actually, uh, what 2:58:35.280 --> 2:58:38.600 happened was that? Uh? She was she was she was 2:58:38.720 --> 2:58:41.920 working with Red Command and she got behind her debt 2:58:41.959 --> 2:58:43.200 payments and they killed her. And it's like this is 2:58:43.280 --> 2:58:47.120 some fucking bullshit, like like she so we stick is 2:58:47.160 --> 2:58:49.200 we actually still don't really know much about like who 2:58:49.320 --> 2:58:52.120 killed her, right, we know that one of the one 2:58:52.160 --> 2:58:54.160 of the people who's being tried for the getaway driver 2:58:54.360 --> 2:58:56.960 was like pictured with Bolsonaro and he's there's a bunch 2:58:56.959 --> 2:59:00.640 of weird ties to like Bolsonaro's brother, because Bosonaro was very, 2:59:00.720 --> 2:59:03.280 very heavily tied into a bunch of arm paramilitary groups. 2:59:05.000 --> 2:59:07.400 It works well for everyone to have these groups that 2:59:07.480 --> 2:59:09.440 they can paign as like the Great Satan, right, Like 2:59:09.520 --> 2:59:11.240 the police can be like ware com back to the gangs, 2:59:11.280 --> 2:59:12.640 and gangs can be like, well, you all hate the 2:59:12.680 --> 2:59:15.160 fucking police, right like, and then they yeah, they could 2:59:15.160 --> 2:59:17.800 just blame anyone else whenever there is and and it's 2:59:17.840 --> 2:59:21.200 like the self supporting structure. Yeah. But then but every 2:59:21.240 --> 2:59:22.840 once in a while, you get someone and that that's 2:59:22.879 --> 2:59:26.320 like verylar frank, like, she's a very very rare kind 2:59:26.400 --> 2:59:28.760 of person, like she she winds up as a city council, right, 2:59:29.000 --> 2:59:31.800 She's she's a very very rare kind of politician who 2:59:31.920 --> 2:59:35.360 like everyone likes like, like everyone on the left likes 2:59:35.440 --> 2:59:38.400 like you're even you're sort of like like most hardcore 2:59:38.640 --> 2:59:41.760 like fucking guy in like like it was your almost 2:59:41.800 --> 2:59:44.400 like hardcore guy like a tiny mL sect and like 2:59:44.560 --> 2:59:47.879 your most hardline anarchists. Like everyone likes her because she's 2:59:47.920 --> 2:59:50.400 doing she's doing, like she's every day putting her life 2:59:50.440 --> 2:59:53.560 in danger trying to stop the police. And you know, 2:59:53.720 --> 2:59:55.920 and when when you get someone like that who is 2:59:56.040 --> 2:59:57.840 not part of the sort of like it's not part 2:59:57.879 --> 2:59:59.560 of either of these factions, right and who was a 2:59:59.600 --> 3:00:03.000 genuine threat to both of them, because she is unbelievably popular. 3:00:03.040 --> 3:00:05.400 She she gets the fifth most votes of anyone. Like 3:00:05.480 --> 3:00:07.400 who's who's running for city counselor and she's doing it 3:00:07.440 --> 3:00:10.040 again running for the PSOL. Who's like they have like 3:00:10.360 --> 3:00:14.600 five seats I think in in the Senate or something 3:00:14.640 --> 3:00:17.080 like that. Like like they're not like they're not like that. 3:00:17.200 --> 3:00:18.880 They are a kind of large party, but they're not 3:00:19.000 --> 3:00:20.520 like one of the parties that ever gonna like win 3:00:20.600 --> 3:00:24.080 a national election, right like, and but you know, but 3:00:24.240 --> 3:00:26.440 she she is an incredible threat to them, and so 3:00:26.600 --> 3:00:28.560 they have her killed. We know that the bullets that 3:00:28.720 --> 3:00:32.120 were at that that she was killed by were part 3:00:32.160 --> 3:00:34.080 of a batch that was sold by the police. We 3:00:34.200 --> 3:00:36.520 know that from from another one of the batches that 3:00:36.640 --> 3:00:39.240 was in that sequence. Uh, there's a bunch of other 3:00:39.280 --> 3:00:41.480 people who were killed by the police. And this is 3:00:41.520 --> 3:00:44.400 also like wait, sold to the police, are sold by 3:00:44.480 --> 3:00:48.360 the police, sold by the police. Magnificent. Yeah, yeah there, 3:00:48.560 --> 3:00:50.200 you know. And there's a lot of stuff going on 3:00:50.280 --> 3:00:52.440 here too, which is like there are a lot of 3:00:52.520 --> 3:00:54.760 activists in Brazil who get killed, like this is this 3:00:54.879 --> 3:00:57.240 happens all the time. There are a lot of digits activists, 3:00:57.280 --> 3:00:58.600 you get killed. There a lot of black activists to 3:00:58.600 --> 3:01:01.200 get killed. They are just like if you piss off 3:01:01.240 --> 3:01:03.560 the wrong person, like you can just get executed. And 3:01:03.680 --> 3:01:05.600 this assassination is one of the symbols of it because 3:01:06.400 --> 3:01:09.680 like she was a city councilwoman, right, Like she was 3:01:09.720 --> 3:01:11.440 part of a major political party, and they just fucking 3:01:11.480 --> 3:01:16.840 shot her, yeah and held accountable. Yeah, it's it's fucking horrible. 3:01:17.040 --> 3:01:20.280 Um I I yeah, I don't really have I don't 3:01:20.320 --> 3:01:23.480 have any sort of like clever thing to say here. 3:01:23.520 --> 3:01:27.160 It's just it's just fucking awful. There's one more thing 3:01:27.200 --> 3:01:29.280 I need to mention, which is that Okay, So the 3:01:29.520 --> 3:01:31.880 thing she was doing like like literally literally she was 3:01:31.959 --> 3:01:34.440 at a conference, like she she was killed, like driving 3:01:34.520 --> 3:01:36.800 home from a conference, right, And the thing she was 3:01:36.840 --> 3:01:39.360 doing like literally in the days leading up, like leading 3:01:39.400 --> 3:01:42.760 up to her assassination was um so, Michael Timmer has 3:01:42.840 --> 3:01:44.840 this thing called the Cote, the call the quote unquote 3:01:44.879 --> 3:01:48.400 federal intervention, which was apparently like extremely popular in Brazil, 3:01:48.440 --> 3:01:51.440 which is like a sign of how fucked up everything is, 3:01:51.480 --> 3:01:53.680 which is that he just like was like, fuck it, 3:01:53.760 --> 3:01:56.000 We're gonna hand control of quote unquote security and real 3:01:56.080 --> 3:01:58.440 Dejannarrow to the army and let them like go to 3:01:58.480 --> 3:02:02.240 warward the gangs. Yeah, fuck, unbelievably fucked. And she she 3:02:02.480 --> 3:02:05.000 is too, takes an incredibly bold chance against us, is 3:02:05.040 --> 3:02:07.240 trying it, is trying to fight it, and then she 3:02:07.440 --> 3:02:11.760 is mysteriously assassinated. Yeah, it's a bit like you know 3:02:11.840 --> 3:02:14.720 how like you obviously people will say that fascism is 3:02:14.840 --> 3:02:18.160 like the return of colonials into domestic policy, right, colonial 3:02:18.680 --> 3:02:22.560 colonial methods in the metropal instead of in the colonies, 3:02:22.600 --> 3:02:25.360 and like this is similar here, right, Like what you're 3:02:25.360 --> 3:02:27.520 seeing is just they're doing a colonialism, but just to 3:02:27.600 --> 3:02:31.240 poor people. Yeah, although I should mention a lot of 3:02:31.320 --> 3:02:35.200 us and that that analysis is developed in like like 3:02:35.240 --> 3:02:38.280 it's developed for Europe and the Brazilian context is not 3:02:38.320 --> 3:02:41.440 the same thing as that, because like Brazil was also 3:02:41.560 --> 3:02:43.760 doing all of this stuff to its own population, because 3:02:43.760 --> 3:02:48.480 again Brazil has a mass like like like Brazil's styled 3:02:48.560 --> 3:02:51.119 colony that was also a slave state. Right, so all 3:02:51.200 --> 3:02:54.040 of this violence is just it's the same thing that 3:02:54.160 --> 3:02:57.680 they've been doing since they got there. Like, yeah, I mean, 3:02:57.720 --> 3:02:59.360 and this is something actually Lula talks about a lot, 3:02:59.440 --> 3:03:00.720 which is like the people who have been in power 3:03:00.760 --> 3:03:04.360 for five years are still in power. But I think 3:03:04.400 --> 3:03:08.200 it's important to understand, like part of how Bollsonaro is 3:03:08.240 --> 3:03:10.000 able to do what he does is that everyone is 3:03:10.000 --> 3:03:13.360 already like everyone is already so primed to just like 3:03:13.560 --> 3:03:16.600 back the fucking army coming in, and like right, like 3:03:16.680 --> 3:03:18.880 there there's so much racism. There's so much just like 3:03:19.080 --> 3:03:20.840 like there there, there's this whole set of law and 3:03:20.920 --> 3:03:24.320 ordership thing that's going on. And the sort of product 3:03:24.360 --> 3:03:27.600 of all of this is in the n eighteen election, 3:03:28.640 --> 3:03:31.040 the PT put in basically some right. I mean, he's 3:03:31.080 --> 3:03:33.080 not some random guy like he he was like like 3:03:33.160 --> 3:03:36.400 he was like a kind of prominent politician, but they 3:03:36.480 --> 3:03:40.280 basically run like some guy and he gets club every Bullsonaro. 3:03:41.160 --> 3:03:42.960 And part of this is there's a lot of stuff 3:03:43.000 --> 3:03:45.560 that happens here that's like very similar to sort of 3:03:45.640 --> 3:03:48.279 US this information campaigns, Like there's all these like telegram 3:03:48.360 --> 3:03:51.400 groups going around where like yeah, his name is Fernando Haddad. 3:03:51.680 --> 3:03:53.200 There's this whole thing about how he's gonna like turn 3:03:53.280 --> 3:03:58.640 your kids gay and like he's a Satanist. Um yeah, 3:03:59.080 --> 3:04:05.560 so and then things interesting, right because I think people, um, 3:04:06.560 --> 3:04:08.720 there's this analysis, so like we have to see everything 3:04:08.760 --> 3:04:10.959 through the length of American politics like the Boston aro 3:04:11.120 --> 3:04:15.760 is the American the Brazilian Trump but like it's and 3:04:15.840 --> 3:04:17.680 my anority. This is not deep, but like it strikes 3:04:17.720 --> 3:04:21.400 me that he embraces Catholicism to a degree that is 3:04:21.520 --> 3:04:26.240 like much greater than like like Trump did religion. I mean, 3:04:26.280 --> 3:04:28.520 it's interesting. So like the London American contexts has you know, 3:04:28.560 --> 3:04:30.000 it has this like thing I think you think you 3:04:30.000 --> 3:04:32.240 know about, which is like it's there. There's this sort 3:04:32.240 --> 3:04:36.080 of right wing Catholicy evangelical alliance. Yeah that is happening here. 3:04:36.280 --> 3:04:38.240 And you know because like a whole bunch of of 3:04:38.600 --> 3:04:41.400 of Bolson Arrow's base is a ship ton of humangelicals. 3:04:41.440 --> 3:04:44.400 But he he's like there's this sort of shared language 3:04:44.440 --> 3:04:48.160 around ESPEC, specifically like around eddy abortion stuff, around opposing 3:04:48.240 --> 3:04:51.760 gender ideology and like feminism and stuff like that, where 3:04:51.800 --> 3:04:53.959 it's like, yeah, you can you can do this sort 3:04:54.000 --> 3:04:55.520 of dog like not even dog wasn't you can just 3:04:55.520 --> 3:04:59.680 sort of like whistle at them and you know, like 3:04:59.760 --> 3:05:03.480 it works. And this is sort of like you know 3:05:03.560 --> 3:05:07.920 I and like okay, like if if I had any 3:05:08.080 --> 3:05:10.879 energy left in me, I would probably do another episode 3:05:10.959 --> 3:05:13.320 that was like like two three I could do like 3:05:13.400 --> 3:05:16.000 a fucking year of episodes. But everything that happened to 3:05:16.000 --> 3:05:21.160 their Billsonaro, Um, yeah, I'm just gonna sort of hit 3:05:21.480 --> 3:05:25.960 some of the like low lights, you know what you 3:05:26.080 --> 3:05:30.880 call it, like Bolsonaro Okay, but Bolsonaro managed to kill 3:05:30.959 --> 3:05:34.640 less people than Trump did. But and also then Biden did. 3:05:35.120 --> 3:05:38.680 But Comma, he also killed a fucking unfathomable number of 3:05:38.720 --> 3:05:42.520 people with COVID, Like he refused to buy vaccines. He 3:05:43.200 --> 3:05:47.800 like it was like really into the classic Cory clean 3:05:48.080 --> 3:05:52.000 stuff like tart and stuff like he like personally spread 3:05:52.080 --> 3:05:56.600 COVID to a bunch of people. Like there's like one 3:05:56.640 --> 3:05:57.680 of one of I think one of the one of 3:05:57.720 --> 3:06:02.960 the most famous things that people know about like the 3:06:03.000 --> 3:06:05.200 sort of bullstion our regime is that the Amazon was 3:06:05.280 --> 3:06:08.400 fucking burnt because they're a huge part of his base, 3:06:08.920 --> 3:06:12.600 like basically legal loggers and bulson just like yeah, fuck it, 3:06:12.720 --> 3:06:15.480 go like destroy all destroy all this indigenous land, fucking 3:06:15.520 --> 3:06:18.960 kill the people on it, and they've been just like 3:06:19.000 --> 3:06:22.760 annihilating the Amazon. Didn't he also and I may again 3:06:22.840 --> 3:06:25.160 be completely off based on this, didn't he break down 3:06:25.200 --> 3:06:27.640 a lot of the like from fun I it's the 3:06:28.160 --> 3:06:32.880 Brazilian National Organization that, among other things, does some sometimes 3:06:32.920 --> 3:06:36.840 problematic but protection of indigenous people's didn't he like a 3:06:36.959 --> 3:06:39.000 dismantle a lot of the structure of that and trying 3:06:39.040 --> 3:06:43.520 to defend Yeah, and it did, like Trump right, like 3:06:43.600 --> 3:06:45.600 it will take years to want to do this bullshit. 3:06:46.240 --> 3:06:48.280 It might never be not like that. That's like we're 3:06:48.320 --> 3:06:50.800 running out of sucking time, right we didn't have Yeah, well, 3:06:50.840 --> 3:06:52.000 and this this is one of the things where like 3:06:52.080 --> 3:06:54.120 we have to hope Lula actually fucking hold up this 3:06:54.200 --> 3:06:57.720 word here because like, Okay, so the PACs record on 3:06:57.840 --> 3:07:01.600 deforestation is way, way and obviously better than Bollsonaro. But 3:07:01.680 --> 3:07:03.000 it's also true that a lot of the sort of 3:07:03.080 --> 3:07:05.000 legal framework that Bosonaro has been using to push this 3:07:05.040 --> 3:07:08.120 stuff like is stuff from the PT And you know, 3:07:08.440 --> 3:07:11.880 I Lula has pledged to stop deforestation, like I hope 3:07:11.920 --> 3:07:16.879 he does, or fucking everyone is going to die. Yeah yeah, 3:07:17.080 --> 3:07:20.520 I mean there there's you know, like everything that was 3:07:20.560 --> 3:07:22.920 like that I've talked about that was bad before, got 3:07:23.080 --> 3:07:26.000 enormously worse Bosonaro. The police violence got worse, the military 3:07:26.080 --> 3:07:30.160 violence got worse. Um, there's just like he's able to 3:07:30.200 --> 3:07:33.280 sort of like do this like enormous anti communist fervor um. 3:07:34.000 --> 3:07:38.920 But the problem is that he kills like he kills 3:07:39.000 --> 3:07:41.520 too many people. That's that's what she's killing hiselfvers he is. 3:07:41.640 --> 3:07:46.960 But like the thing is like he really just destroys 3:07:47.000 --> 3:07:51.640 the entire Brazilian economy, like his nukes it. And this 3:07:51.920 --> 3:07:55.320 costs him the support of a bunch of the ruling class. 3:07:56.360 --> 3:07:59.240 And this is actually the thing that this is. Like Ultimately, 3:07:59.320 --> 3:08:02.480 what defeated both to morrow is m like in as 3:08:02.560 --> 3:08:03.840 far as we could even talk about a being it, 3:08:03.959 --> 3:08:07.240 what if he did Bolsonaro personally is the fact that 3:08:07.720 --> 3:08:09.959 like he like he loses it off with the ruling 3:08:10.000 --> 3:08:14.039 class that when Lula appeals, like Lulula's actual case appeal 3:08:14.080 --> 3:08:16.760 goes to the Freme Court, they throw it out and 3:08:17.240 --> 3:08:20.160 say Morrow like turns on him for a bit, although 3:08:20.440 --> 3:08:22.800 Morrow and it comes back and endorses Bolsonaro in the 3:08:22.840 --> 3:08:25.160 election because he's a piece of ship. But like, yeah, 3:08:25.360 --> 3:08:27.560 there's he he loses a bunch of sort of the 3:08:27.600 --> 3:08:31.280 support of the ruling class, and there's this kind of 3:08:32.120 --> 3:08:33.720 this is the thing I think is kind of disturbing 3:08:33.760 --> 3:08:38.200 about this election, even the Lula one, is that Lula 3:08:38.280 --> 3:08:41.120 did this like giant United French strategy. Right like, he 3:08:41.280 --> 3:08:44.800 pulled together, like he was recognized by sort of everyone 3:08:44.800 --> 3:08:46.920 who posts boson arrows, like he's the only person who 3:08:46.959 --> 3:08:49.040 could stop him. But this means that he's drawing a 3:08:49.080 --> 3:08:52.280 bunch of support from the right. His his running mate 3:08:52.320 --> 3:08:56.840 in this election is a guy named Gerald. I mean, yeah, 3:08:57.280 --> 3:09:01.760 this is a guy that Lula beat by twenty points 3:09:02.280 --> 3:09:07.080 in an election or thirty points something like that. Like 3:09:07.440 --> 3:09:10.280 this is literally like a right wing guy. Hulula fucking 3:09:10.320 --> 3:09:13.520 destroyed an election and he had and Lula brings him 3:09:13.560 --> 3:09:15.039 on as a running mate because he's trying to sort 3:09:15.080 --> 3:09:19.800 of appeal to like disaffected Like he's he's running the 3:09:19.840 --> 3:09:23.320 sort of like Biden suburban strategy, right like, he's doing 3:09:23.360 --> 3:09:25.280 the like an appeal to sort of moderate voters thing. 3:09:26.560 --> 3:09:28.440 And like, I mean like, and this is going on 3:09:28.520 --> 3:09:30.320 to the point where like he's telling people like not 3:09:30.600 --> 3:09:33.200 to like bring PT flags or like where PT colors 3:09:33.240 --> 3:09:36.760 to rallies because they're trying to down yeah, because they're 3:09:36.760 --> 3:09:38.360 trying to downplay the sort of like communism thing. And 3:09:38.400 --> 3:09:42.760 it doesn't really work because like Bolson Haro's just calling him, 3:09:42.760 --> 3:09:46.160 everyone's just calling him a communist anyways, right, and and 3:09:46.400 --> 3:09:50.640 he like squeaks by this fucking election, right, Like, I 3:09:50.680 --> 3:09:52.800 mean he probably wanted by he probably would have wanted 3:09:52.800 --> 3:09:54.400 by a couple more percent than the actual vote total. 3:09:54.440 --> 3:09:57.880 Shoulder han't been voter suppression, but like it was close. 3:09:58.280 --> 3:10:00.400 And the other thing that's really really bad about this 3:10:00.600 --> 3:10:05.080 is that I like the right, like Bilsonaro's party like 3:10:05.280 --> 3:10:09.640 controls the Senate. So and and this is everything right 3:10:09.680 --> 3:10:11.760 if Bolsono's party can cut it off deals and like 3:10:11.840 --> 3:10:14.360 jettison Bilsonaro like bilson is um like as a force 3:10:14.520 --> 3:10:17.240 is still there, right like this this this this sort 3:10:17.280 --> 3:10:20.000 of like fascist right has consolidated as his own political force. 3:10:20.520 --> 3:10:22.080 And you know there's a non zero chance that they 3:10:22.120 --> 3:10:24.800 just impeach Lula, right and this we literally watched this 3:10:24.959 --> 3:10:27.800 entire fucking cycle that has happened again, like right, like 3:10:27.879 --> 3:10:32.720 that this kind of ship like this could happen. Um. Yeah, 3:10:33.040 --> 3:10:39.360 so things are still not great, and yeah, Lula's actual 3:10:39.480 --> 3:10:41.440 hand to do stuff here is very contract. I should 3:10:41.440 --> 3:10:44.200 also mention that like I don't know, like there was 3:10:44.280 --> 3:10:48.640 literally like partying in the streets in like like they 3:10:48.680 --> 3:10:50.800 were like they were parties in the streets of cities 3:10:50.840 --> 3:10:54.000 that like he didn't even win like like this this 3:10:54.160 --> 3:10:58.640 is like he I don't know, like the fact that 3:10:58.720 --> 3:11:03.600 he won is genuine leave very good, Um I have 3:11:03.920 --> 3:11:06.080 I don't know what can be done to actually sort 3:11:06.120 --> 3:11:08.280 of defeat boll snaros am as a structural force because again, 3:11:08.320 --> 3:11:13.080 like he won like of the vote, right, like that's 3:11:13.160 --> 3:11:18.960 still there killing like like tens of thousands of his 3:11:19.760 --> 3:11:26.440 population and being a general ship head. Yeah so yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:11:26.600 --> 3:11:31.360 they're not I don't know. That's the like, I don't know, 3:11:31.480 --> 3:11:35.320 like the like actual structural things have to change about 3:11:35.320 --> 3:11:37.680 both the Brazilian political system, like the Brazilan political system, 3:11:37.720 --> 3:11:40.120 the police, the military, and the economy have to structurally 3:11:40.200 --> 3:11:42.880 change or we're or like we're gonna get gonna get 3:11:42.879 --> 3:11:44.840 another both SNAr. Like this is what's happening in the US, right, 3:11:44.959 --> 3:11:47.600 Like there hasn't actually been a sort of structural shift 3:11:47.800 --> 3:11:50.400 in like in the American political systems that we're just 3:11:50.400 --> 3:11:52.680 gonna get another Trump. Maybe it'll be actual Trump. Who knows, 3:11:52.840 --> 3:11:57.959 like like like maybe this thing like until until fascism 3:11:58.040 --> 3:12:00.480 is sort of like class base and base in the 3:12:00.600 --> 3:12:04.120 state is destroyed, like and and it's it's sort of 3:12:04.200 --> 3:12:07.560 ideological basins in sort of like righting constructions of the family. 3:12:07.600 --> 3:12:11.959 It's religious based, like a particular like we're just we're 3:12:12.000 --> 3:12:13.960 gonna be back here and we're gonna be sort of 3:12:14.040 --> 3:12:18.160 like continuously teetering between fascism and something that's not fascism 3:12:18.400 --> 3:12:21.840 but has no way to oppose it, and yeah, yeah, 3:12:21.959 --> 3:12:25.240 that fucking sucks. Um yeah, but we keep doing it, 3:12:25.360 --> 3:12:28.400 like we keep trying to defeat fascism by running like 3:12:28.560 --> 3:12:30.840 closer and closer to fascism to pull away like the 3:12:30.959 --> 3:12:34.240 marginal fascist. Okay, so here here's the thing. I one thing, 3:12:34.320 --> 3:12:36.320 one thing I will give to Lula is that like, okay, 3:12:36.920 --> 3:12:39.640 his way of doing this was that a bunch of 3:12:39.680 --> 3:12:43.400 people found pictures of Bolsaaro and illuminate like like with 3:12:43.480 --> 3:12:45.760 a bunch of a lout, like a bunch of like 3:12:45.879 --> 3:12:49.680 in Freemason rooms with a bunch of Freemasons. And this 3:12:49.840 --> 3:12:53.640 I think genuinely may have cost Bolsonaro, Like like there's 3:12:53.640 --> 3:12:55.640 an argument this cost bulson Arrow like a bunch of 3:12:55.720 --> 3:12:58.760 election points with their own base because people found this people. 3:12:58.760 --> 3:13:00.880 There's another thing like like the day, like a couple 3:13:00.879 --> 3:13:03.360 of days before the election, like an old TV clip 3:13:03.440 --> 3:13:05.879 turned up a Bulson arms out of nowhere, saying quote, 3:13:05.920 --> 3:13:09.640 I would eat an Indian. Yes, yes, this started to acountabism. 3:13:09.640 --> 3:13:11.160 I mean this is like like this is really about 3:13:11.200 --> 3:13:13.000 his racism, right, but you're starting to a whole cannibalism thing. 3:13:13.040 --> 3:13:16.560 The Supreme Court ruled, like I think incredibly cowardly because 3:13:16.600 --> 3:13:19.600 he did say this is ruled that he couldn't run, 3:13:19.680 --> 3:13:22.160 ad that that Lula couldn't run, as calling him a cannibal. 3:13:23.360 --> 3:13:25.240 But you know, like like there was something like this 3:13:25.320 --> 3:13:27.760 like we're like like suddenly that like there were like 3:13:27.959 --> 3:13:29.400 I don't know, like this is and I will applau 3:13:29.440 --> 3:13:32.840 Loula for this, like he hasn't really like he could 3:13:32.840 --> 3:13:36.520 have run an election where he just fucking threw his 3:13:36.640 --> 3:13:39.240 entire base under the bus and was like insanely racist 3:13:39.720 --> 3:13:42.520 and was like no, I hate queer people and I 3:13:42.600 --> 3:13:44.560 hate women, and like he could have he could have 3:13:44.640 --> 3:13:46.560 run a camp, he could have run a Boson companion. 3:13:46.600 --> 3:13:49.520 He didn't, right, And and in so far as he 3:13:49.600 --> 3:13:51.720 was tapping into right wing ship, he was tapping into hey, 3:13:51.760 --> 3:13:54.000 this guy is a fucking this guy's in Freemason robes. 3:13:54.680 --> 3:13:56.320 It was sort it was sort of funny ship that 3:13:56.480 --> 3:13:58.360 like it's probably not great that this is where the 3:13:58.400 --> 3:14:02.480 political sphere is, but like you know, okay, Bossonaro literally 3:14:02.560 --> 3:14:06.560 saying he would eat a human being is like I 3:14:06.600 --> 3:14:08.960 would rather that be the kind of insane right wing 3:14:09.040 --> 3:14:11.560 thing that's going around than like, I don't know, cueer 3:14:11.600 --> 3:14:13.760 people are going to murder your children or something, which 3:14:13.800 --> 3:14:16.960 is like the normal ship that Yeah you hear. Yeah, 3:14:17.040 --> 3:14:18.880 and it's in sixteen, it's not like he said it 3:14:18.920 --> 3:14:25.720 when he was eighteen six years ago. Yeah, I think 3:14:25.720 --> 3:14:31.040 he said it's like a journalist as well, right, Yeah, 3:14:31.560 --> 3:14:34.760 it's a fucking terrible guy. You can imagine Donald Trump 3:14:34.840 --> 3:14:39.959 saying he'd eat someone probably, I think I think Donald Trump, 3:14:40.000 --> 3:14:44.520 you'd have to prompt Bosaro just unprompted. There's no connection here. 3:14:44.800 --> 3:14:48.039 He was just like, fuck it, No, I am so racist. 3:14:48.120 --> 3:14:53.160 I'm just gonna say this. I don't know. I wish, 3:14:53.200 --> 3:14:56.440 I yeah, I wish. I wish good luck and good 3:14:56.480 --> 3:15:00.920 fortune and yeah, like Vick to reach it. Everyone in 3:15:00.959 --> 3:15:05.480 Brazil who is fighting. Yeah, fu Bolsonaro, I help all 3:15:05.520 --> 3:15:09.199 these I hope he fucking dies of COVID finally. Um yeah, 3:15:09.360 --> 3:15:11.600 and I hope, I hope, but I really do hope 3:15:11.600 --> 3:15:14.960 the bulls narrows can be defeated. Um, yeah, I don't know, 3:15:15.280 --> 3:15:20.080 like make better choices, pt please God, we can't do 3:15:20.240 --> 3:15:23.039 this again. Yeah, I have both. The people in Brazil 3:15:23.040 --> 3:15:26.520 would continue to be impacted by this this bullshit. Can yeah, 3:15:26.760 --> 3:15:30.200 have better meaningful improvements to their lives yea. And the 3:15:30.280 --> 3:15:32.280 selection and I mean I will say, like, like this 3:15:32.520 --> 3:15:37.240 is proof that like bullsonaroism isn't isn't undefeatable, right, Like 3:15:37.440 --> 3:15:40.119 it's like the fact that he wasn't able to pull 3:15:40.120 --> 3:15:44.080 off the military qu right, like it is beatable. It's 3:15:44.160 --> 3:15:47.680 just it's very very hard. And yeah, I mean then 3:15:47.720 --> 3:15:49.520 that this is true or fascist and everywhere. Right, it's 3:15:49.520 --> 3:15:52.080 hard to beat, but it can be stopped. And we 3:15:52.200 --> 3:15:55.480 are going to because the alternative is the fucking annihilation 3:15:55.680 --> 3:16:15.400 of the earth. So yeah, fuck them, We're gonna win. Uh, 3:16:17.000 --> 3:16:20.360 it could happen. Here is a podcast that you're listening 3:16:20.480 --> 3:16:23.560 to right now. If this is a surprise to you, 3:16:23.800 --> 3:16:27.400 if you if you thought this was the Joe Rogan experience, 3:16:28.080 --> 3:16:31.959 let me assure you everyone here does eat a diet 3:16:32.080 --> 3:16:34.360 of nothing but elk meat. Uh. And to talk to 3:16:34.480 --> 3:16:41.200 me about the health value of elk meat, uh is UM, no, 3:16:41.640 --> 3:16:46.360 uh so about I don't know, a week or so ago. Um, 3:16:46.800 --> 3:16:49.920 we're talking with Sarah Young. Sarah, how are you doing good? 3:16:50.040 --> 3:16:53.400 How are you? I'm I'm pretty good. Sarah. You're a 3:16:53.480 --> 3:16:56.760 deputy features editor at The Verge. You are a lawyer 3:16:56.879 --> 3:16:59.920 and a journalist. So you have embraced the two commos 3:17:00.120 --> 3:17:05.320 cursed vocations in two um, and you you've number one 3:17:05.520 --> 3:17:09.920 most recently written an incredible piece UM about the Portland's 3:17:09.959 --> 3:17:17.400 Van abductions, which is like brutal and um, very important 3:17:17.440 --> 3:17:19.800 for the Verge. People ought to check it out. It is. Uh. 3:17:20.320 --> 3:17:22.400 I don't know. I've had trouble getting through all of 3:17:22.480 --> 3:17:25.880 it because it is very good and because I was there. 3:17:26.040 --> 3:17:28.920 But everyone needs to read it. It's an important piece. 3:17:29.360 --> 3:17:32.120 We're not talking about that today. We're talking about a 3:17:32.160 --> 3:17:35.560 post that you made on the Twitter dot com about 3:17:35.560 --> 3:17:37.680 a week or so ago that I I messaged you 3:17:37.720 --> 3:17:39.440 about wanting to to chat about you want to kind 3:17:39.440 --> 3:17:42.000 of talk about what that post was and what you 3:17:42.080 --> 3:17:46.000 were trying to get across. Yeah, the audience. So if 3:17:46.040 --> 3:17:50.000 you live in Portland right now, it's um, it's absolutely 3:17:50.040 --> 3:17:57.560 fucking rancid. Like I think the discourse, well, sometimes sometimes 3:17:57.600 --> 3:18:01.040 a city, but the discourse is rancid. Uh. It's like 3:18:01.160 --> 3:18:03.200 this in a lot of other cities as well. Um, 3:18:04.280 --> 3:18:07.320 but you know Portland is like it's the discourse around 3:18:07.360 --> 3:18:11.040 homeless people, right yeah. Yeah. Every every conversation you have 3:18:11.280 --> 3:18:14.560 with any random person, it's like eventually goes to oh, 3:18:14.640 --> 3:18:18.160 it's gotten so bad here lately, and it's always about 3:18:18.240 --> 3:18:22.280 homeless people. Um. And they it always goes to this 3:18:22.440 --> 3:18:25.840 place where they're like, oh, we should start rounding people 3:18:25.959 --> 3:18:28.840 up into camps and getting rid of them. And it's 3:18:28.879 --> 3:18:31.640 like people are a little too excited to literally murder 3:18:31.720 --> 3:18:36.320 homeless people. You get just saying the most insane things 3:18:36.400 --> 3:18:38.040 like oh, I'm not going to break my car if 3:18:38.080 --> 3:18:42.400 I see one of those homeless people. It's it's awful 3:18:43.160 --> 3:18:49.040 and like, yeah, it's really really awful and like and 3:18:49.160 --> 3:18:52.240 then you get people going like, oh, well you know 3:18:52.360 --> 3:18:54.960 how things are, and like pulling out murders that have 3:18:55.040 --> 3:18:58.640 happened in like New York, um of Asian women at 3:18:58.720 --> 3:19:00.760 me to like just a by why it is that 3:19:00.840 --> 3:19:03.000 I need to start supporting the cops and so on 3:19:03.080 --> 3:19:11.800 and so forth. Um, And it's just there's this thing 3:19:11.920 --> 3:19:16.360 where I think that they're well meaning leftists really want 3:19:16.400 --> 3:19:20.680 to sort of pull out, like let's humanize almost people, 3:19:20.760 --> 3:19:23.440 which like, yes, but the people you're talking to they 3:19:23.520 --> 3:19:28.040 don't deal with empathy actually, right, they already don't see 3:19:28.120 --> 3:19:30.880 most of the population as people. So what you're doing 3:19:31.040 --> 3:19:33.320 is you're not even speaking the language that they speak. 3:19:34.480 --> 3:19:38.000 The issue for me is that what they're what people 3:19:38.080 --> 3:19:41.760 are doing when they dehumanize the homeless or like turn 3:19:41.879 --> 3:19:43.840 them into like a problem that you can just sweep 3:19:43.879 --> 3:19:49.119 away or like kill or put in danger or drop 3:19:49.160 --> 3:19:51.240 into a camp where they're more likely to die or 3:19:51.320 --> 3:19:56.720 get sick or be harmed. Um. It's it's that you're 3:19:57.120 --> 3:20:01.360 making a vast class of people bowl based on like 3:20:01.480 --> 3:20:07.040 superficial characteristics. Right. Um, they might be dirty, they're intense, whatever, 3:20:07.879 --> 3:20:10.520 you felt threatened by one of them once, So now 3:20:11.240 --> 3:20:14.440 everyone who's ever been homeless deserves to have a worse 3:20:14.520 --> 3:20:19.440 off life because you didn't feel great about it this 3:20:19.640 --> 3:20:25.080 one time and or two times. And it's it's really 3:20:25.160 --> 3:20:29.560 absurd to me because like, yeah, I I've had many 3:20:29.840 --> 3:20:32.160 instances in my life where I haven't felt very safe, 3:20:32.800 --> 3:20:35.920 um because of someone who was homeless, because of someone 3:20:35.959 --> 3:20:38.000 who is an addict. Um, I mean I'm a small 3:20:38.040 --> 3:20:41.280 Asian woman. I take public transitu It is, the vibes 3:20:41.320 --> 3:20:44.480 are off in every fucking city right now for people 3:20:44.520 --> 3:20:48.080 who look like me. Um, But that doesn't mean that 3:20:48.280 --> 3:20:52.880 everyone who looks like the person who's making me uncomfortable 3:20:53.760 --> 3:20:57.480 deserves to be swept up into a fucking camp. And 3:20:58.360 --> 3:21:00.440 in fact, like if I like, roll the hat back 3:21:00.480 --> 3:21:02.680 and look at sort of, oh, let's look at people 3:21:02.720 --> 3:21:07.879 who have made me feel threatened, afraid whatever. I've gone 3:21:07.920 --> 3:21:12.040 through big old sprints in my life where I'm getting 3:21:12.040 --> 3:21:14.760 a lot of death threats from white supremacists. I mean, 3:21:15.120 --> 3:21:18.600 I'm sure you've life too. I can see I see it. 3:21:18.680 --> 3:21:21.800 But like you, I don't know, because you're a woman 3:21:21.920 --> 3:21:24.320 writing on the internet, like you'll get more in a 3:21:24.400 --> 3:21:26.640 couple of months than I do in an average like year. 3:21:27.280 --> 3:21:30.720 I mean it depends, right, Like it depends. I was 3:21:30.840 --> 3:21:35.360 just looking at your mentions. Yeah, I don't know. I 3:21:35.640 --> 3:21:37.320 don't really like to carefully, so I don't even know 3:21:37.360 --> 3:21:39.600 what the numbers are. Like this is, I did have 3:21:40.120 --> 3:21:44.640 an incredible, like six month period where it was really 3:21:44.720 --> 3:21:49.600 intense because Tucker Carlson was like putting me on his 3:21:49.680 --> 3:21:53.640 show for a while, so it was it was really bad, 3:21:53.800 --> 3:21:56.800 like people like some guy called into my office and 3:21:57.680 --> 3:22:00.280 threatened to fire bomb it, and the people who got 3:22:00.320 --> 3:22:02.600 the phone call like, we're stressed out enough that they 3:22:02.640 --> 3:22:05.800 called the cops and there's like a police report and like, um, 3:22:07.520 --> 3:22:09.040 there was a bunch of stuff that happened during this 3:22:09.160 --> 3:22:13.280 period that was pretty scary and uh. And it was 3:22:13.360 --> 3:22:17.240 always like guys who all sort of looked the same, Right, 3:22:17.280 --> 3:22:19.880 It's like all the you know, the Oakley sunglasses, like 3:22:20.080 --> 3:22:22.280 taking a selfie of themselves in the car, like that 3:22:22.440 --> 3:22:28.200 sort of stereotype. Right, And you know, I gotta say, 3:22:28.680 --> 3:22:32.400 for a while, i'd see that, like that little profile picture, 3:22:32.440 --> 3:22:35.240 I'd see someone in person, and like my heart would 3:22:35.240 --> 3:22:38.040 start beating faster. Right. Took a while for me to 3:22:38.160 --> 3:22:43.000 like be able to dial that back. Um, during that 3:22:43.120 --> 3:22:46.680 six month period, I'd hear someone yellow racial slur and 3:22:46.879 --> 3:22:49.440 I would almost have a panic attack because I f like, 3:22:49.480 --> 3:22:53.520 oh no, like like someone's gonna come and make good 3:22:53.560 --> 3:22:59.640 on these threats, and I don't, like, I don't want 3:22:59.680 --> 3:23:04.960 to round people up into camps for looking like a 3:23:05.080 --> 3:23:09.600 shitty racist, suburban nite white cut. Yeah, It's like that's 3:23:09.879 --> 3:23:13.080 that's because I'm not a fucking Nazi. Like it's like 3:23:13.480 --> 3:23:17.320 it doesn't matter what you've experienced. You're like what legitimate 3:23:17.440 --> 3:23:20.400 harm you faced from people who look a certain way, 3:23:20.560 --> 3:23:24.480 Like you don't round them up into camps or like 3:23:25.000 --> 3:23:27.000 talk about like how you're not going to break on 3:23:27.120 --> 3:23:30.840 the straw on the street in your car. I'm glad 3:23:30.879 --> 3:23:33.880 I was happy for kind of your perspective on the matter, 3:23:33.920 --> 3:23:36.280 because I do try Like whenever people talk about how 3:23:36.320 --> 3:23:39.080 scary Portland is are how scary the homeless camps are, Like, 3:23:39.200 --> 3:23:41.320 the thing I want to say is like, like I 3:23:41.640 --> 3:23:43.959 have like five or six different running routes in the city, 3:23:44.160 --> 3:23:47.040 and most of them have homeless encampments on them, and 3:23:47.240 --> 3:23:48.760 I run through them at night. I went through them 3:23:48.800 --> 3:23:51.880 at the day, never had a problem. Um. You know, 3:23:52.000 --> 3:23:54.440 sometimes there's like trash, and I would like it if 3:23:54.440 --> 3:23:57.240 it were cleaner, But also primarily the people cleaning up 3:23:57.280 --> 3:24:01.080 are usually like autonomously organized groups of formerly houseless folks, 3:24:01.120 --> 3:24:02.560 which is the thing that happens in a couple of 3:24:02.560 --> 3:24:06.120 the neighborhoods that I go to, um and like, But 3:24:06.280 --> 3:24:08.480 at the same time, I don't want to bring that 3:24:08.959 --> 3:24:11.000 in when there's an argument about it, because like I'm 3:24:11.080 --> 3:24:14.040 a six ft three pound white guy, right, Like, of 3:24:14.120 --> 3:24:17.279 course I'm as a general rule, in a lot of situations, 3:24:17.400 --> 3:24:19.560 I don't feel worried what other people do because I'm 3:24:19.560 --> 3:24:22.640 a big white dude and that's um. But what I 3:24:22.720 --> 3:24:26.240 will say, I had an experience a couple of months back. 3:24:26.400 --> 3:24:29.160 A person that I live near, like a neighbor of mine, 3:24:29.280 --> 3:24:32.080 is a young woman within like a six month old infant, 3:24:32.680 --> 3:24:36.640 and she was out jogging on one of the trails 3:24:36.840 --> 3:24:42.400 near our house, and two guys uh in new Kawasaki 3:24:42.840 --> 3:24:45.320 like motorcycles, dirt bikes, whatever you want to call them. 3:24:45.800 --> 3:24:48.720 I assume rich kids because these were very new bikes 3:24:49.440 --> 3:24:51.160 drove up and shot at her and her baby with 3:24:51.200 --> 3:24:55.160 BB guns, hit her in the face, nearly hit her baby. Um. 3:24:55.959 --> 3:25:00.480 And it was like homeless folks and people at an 3:25:00.480 --> 3:25:03.000 illegal skate park who came to her aid and like 3:25:03.160 --> 3:25:05.800 made sure she was okay. And when I got out there, 3:25:05.840 --> 3:25:07.800 because I I rolled out there with a fucking beat 3:25:07.879 --> 3:25:09.920 stick and a handgun just to be like, if I 3:25:10.040 --> 3:25:14.040 see these motherfucker's, we're gonna have words. And I started 3:25:14.120 --> 3:25:16.280 talking to homeless folks that I knew on the route 3:25:16.320 --> 3:25:18.400 who were all like, yeah, those people like they come 3:25:18.440 --> 3:25:20.000 by to shoot at us and it's and I have 3:25:20.120 --> 3:25:22.400 heard this in multiple encampments, of heard this at Laura 3:25:22.480 --> 3:25:25.400 Durst a number of places that like kids from the 3:25:25.440 --> 3:25:27.640 suburbs will come in to shoot homeless people with baby 3:25:27.720 --> 3:25:31.120 guns and mace them, and um, I have I'm not 3:25:31.160 --> 3:25:34.000 gonna say again. I have also been in a situation 3:25:34.080 --> 3:25:37.160 where like an agitated houseless woman was like swinging a 3:25:37.240 --> 3:25:40.680 machette at some folks, and you know, everything was de escalated. 3:25:40.720 --> 3:25:42.640 But like, I get it. The fact that there are 3:25:42.720 --> 3:25:45.959 people out there who are having like mental health difficulty 3:25:46.040 --> 3:25:48.080 means that people are going to have encounters that can 3:25:48.120 --> 3:25:51.480 be frightening. Um. But by and large, the people that 3:25:51.680 --> 3:25:55.840 I find myself most threatened by are like kids, people 3:25:55.879 --> 3:25:57.959 like those assholes rolling by and shooting people with BB 3:25:58.080 --> 3:26:01.640 guns and of course folks draw having gigantic trucks in 3:26:01.720 --> 3:26:05.920 tiny streets like assholes often while wasted. Um, Like, those 3:26:05.959 --> 3:26:09.680 are the things that scare me in Portland's not the encampments. Yeah, 3:26:09.959 --> 3:26:15.400 And honestly, like there there are some increasing safety issues 3:26:15.480 --> 3:26:17.840 in Portland, but like a lot of it is also 3:26:17.920 --> 3:26:21.160 just like from cars, right, like it is a it's 3:26:21.200 --> 3:26:23.000 more there's more of a car culture than there used 3:26:23.000 --> 3:26:27.280 to be. UM, and people get hit and uh, they 3:26:27.360 --> 3:26:30.560 go to the hospital or they die, Like it's it. 3:26:30.720 --> 3:26:33.680 There's like they're they're big changes in the city for sure, 3:26:34.120 --> 3:26:38.360 but like it's there's so much focus on homelessness as 3:26:38.400 --> 3:26:40.160 being like the root of all of that, and like, 3:26:40.720 --> 3:26:43.119 I don't know, they'll say, oh, Portland has gotten so bad, 3:26:43.200 --> 3:26:45.480 and the same breath as like talking about how high 3:26:45.520 --> 3:26:49.280 rents are or like how expensive houses have gotten just 3:26:49.480 --> 3:26:54.200 not even connecting those two things, right, Like why is 3:26:54.280 --> 3:26:58.320 it that housing is so expensive now? Like clearly people 3:26:58.360 --> 3:27:03.080 are placing bets on realist state either that or just 3:27:03.560 --> 3:27:06.920 we haven't built out enough. Could that be something? Um? 3:27:07.240 --> 3:27:09.320 Or maybe things aren't as bad as you think, and 3:27:09.440 --> 3:27:13.600 it's it's a desirable place to live. Um it's really 3:27:14.000 --> 3:27:19.240 like it is. It's extremely frustrating. UM. I. I also 3:27:19.320 --> 3:27:23.400 think that there's this weird thing where you just don't 3:27:23.440 --> 3:27:27.520 really think about the fact that you might have one 3:27:27.640 --> 3:27:32.600 or two encounters where it's upsetting you feel scared, and 3:27:32.720 --> 3:27:35.959 then like the vast majority of people who are unhoused 3:27:36.480 --> 3:27:38.440 are just trying to stay the funk out of your way, 3:27:39.360 --> 3:27:43.000 right And like there, you're not going to see them, 3:27:43.040 --> 3:27:45.280 you're not going to talk to them unless you go 3:27:45.360 --> 3:27:47.000 out of your way to talk to them and reach out, 3:27:47.680 --> 3:27:51.240 and like they're probably scared of you because they don't 3:27:51.280 --> 3:27:53.760 know who you are, Like you're a stranger. You might 3:27:53.800 --> 3:27:56.840 be one of those assholes on Kawasaki's like out to 3:27:57.480 --> 3:28:02.480 to shoot you, out to shoot them, And it's it's 3:28:02.640 --> 3:28:06.600 really frustrating, Like it's halfway. I don't know. Some some 3:28:06.720 --> 3:28:09.359 of the people who buy into this kind of discourse 3:28:09.400 --> 3:28:13.000 are just outright terrible human beings, right, Yeah, they're they're 3:28:13.000 --> 3:28:15.560 just fashion, they're just they're just fast. This is useful. 3:28:15.879 --> 3:28:19.800 But then there's like it's really frustrating how many people 3:28:19.879 --> 3:28:21.840 in the city right now are just useful idiots for 3:28:21.959 --> 3:28:26.280 the fascists have just like gone down that gone down 3:28:26.320 --> 3:28:29.800 that rabbit hole and aren't thinking past like what it 3:28:29.959 --> 3:28:33.400 means to quote unquote take care of the homeless problem, 3:28:34.520 --> 3:28:37.199 Like what do you what do you want to do here? 3:28:37.879 --> 3:28:41.120 What do you actually want to do? Um? Where are 3:28:41.160 --> 3:28:43.520 these people going to go? Like what's going to happen 3:28:43.600 --> 3:28:49.840 to them? And it's it's super frustrating. We're focusing on 3:28:49.959 --> 3:28:52.200 Portland because it's where we live. But all of these 3:28:52.240 --> 3:28:54.600 things are evidence of like broader trends. You can see 3:28:54.600 --> 3:28:56.600 a lot of the same tactics being used in Los 3:28:56.640 --> 3:29:01.200 Angeles and Austin, um in Minneapolis, and and one of 3:29:01.280 --> 3:29:04.160 the things is kind of this conflation of like disorder, 3:29:05.000 --> 3:29:10.400 drug use, homelessness with like deadly violence and a number 3:29:10.440 --> 3:29:13.440 of things like we've talked about kind of jailing and 3:29:13.879 --> 3:29:16.520 putting into camps the homeless is is one thing people 3:29:16.560 --> 3:29:20.279 suggest There's also a lot of like suggestions around massively 3:29:20.400 --> 3:29:24.360 increasing the number of police. And this all also goes 3:29:24.440 --> 3:29:27.480 into you know, you've got this kind of series of 3:29:27.840 --> 3:29:32.880 of right wing UH coups against elected leaders who have 3:29:33.000 --> 3:29:35.480 any kind of other suggestions. We saw this in San 3:29:35.520 --> 3:29:38.600 Francisco with the DHS abode and the police like just 3:29:38.800 --> 3:29:42.959 refusing to enforce like the law when they were when 3:29:43.000 --> 3:29:46.360 CESSA was attempting to carry things out in a different way. 3:29:46.400 --> 3:29:48.440 And like what we're seeing in Portland right now, we've 3:29:48.520 --> 3:29:53.720 got um a city Commissioner Joan Hardesty, who UH number 3:29:53.800 --> 3:29:57.920 one is the only black woman in the city council UM, 3:29:58.280 --> 3:30:01.320 the only person on the city council who rents UH 3:30:01.440 --> 3:30:03.120 and the only person in the city council, who is 3:30:03.120 --> 3:30:06.200 in debt and who is endured. And I'm not gonna 3:30:06.240 --> 3:30:08.960 say she's a perfect counselor a perfect politician. There's plenty 3:30:08.959 --> 3:30:12.920 of things to criticize Hardesty over um, but there has been, 3:30:13.000 --> 3:30:15.520 like number one, this kind of unhinged campaign of attacking 3:30:15.560 --> 3:30:17.959 her because of the fact that, like, her financial situation 3:30:18.080 --> 3:30:21.200 isn't great, which I see actually as a plus, um, 3:30:21.760 --> 3:30:24.200 because a lot of people in Portland are in rough 3:30:24.280 --> 3:30:26.760 financial condition. Maybe it's nice if they're represented on the 3:30:26.800 --> 3:30:31.120 fucking city council. But also she's instituted as people keep 3:30:31.200 --> 3:30:34.440 fetching about, you know, violence and gun violence, which are 3:30:34.480 --> 3:30:36.720 problems that have gotten worse in Portland. Although it is 3:30:36.720 --> 3:30:38.840 important to not Portland is one of the safest cities 3:30:38.879 --> 3:30:41.480 in the entire United States, even after the quote unquote 3:30:41.520 --> 3:30:44.200 surge and violent crime. I don't think that mitigates that. 3:30:44.280 --> 3:30:47.720 I just think it's important to keep like things in perspective. 3:30:47.920 --> 3:30:52.280 But Hardesty has instituted the only effective program that has 3:30:52.320 --> 3:30:55.160 reduced gun violence in the city of Portland in the 3:30:55.240 --> 3:30:59.560 recent past, which was essentially a series of traffic calming measures. Right, 3:30:59.680 --> 3:31:01.520 Like think that's probably a fair way to say it. 3:31:01.600 --> 3:31:04.240 It was sort of altering the way in which UM 3:31:04.600 --> 3:31:07.280 traffic worked in a neighborhood to kind of try and 3:31:07.400 --> 3:31:12.240 reduce some of the situations that were like leading to violence. 3:31:12.520 --> 3:31:17.480 And Um, she's undergoing this massive attack right now by 3:31:19.240 --> 3:31:21.480 a candidate, a right wing candidate. I mean he, like 3:31:21.600 --> 3:31:24.600 everyone who runs importantly, he claims to be a Democrat. Um, 3:31:24.879 --> 3:31:28.720 he's donated to Republicans. He is called named Rene Gonzalez, 3:31:28.720 --> 3:31:30.880 who's being backed by a lot of the same business 3:31:30.959 --> 3:31:33.720 interests that are pushing this anti homeless agenda, pushing the 3:31:33.800 --> 3:31:38.600 mayor's proposal to put homeless people in encampments. And UM, 3:31:39.760 --> 3:31:42.160 I don't know, it's just I feel like I can 3:31:42.240 --> 3:31:46.200 see it all coming together, and that I hate how 3:31:46.280 --> 3:31:48.320 many people are, as you said, kind of useful idiots 3:31:48.320 --> 3:31:51.320 about it, where they're like, you know, look it clearly 3:31:51.440 --> 3:31:54.240 these people who are talking about rehabilitation or who are 3:31:54.280 --> 3:31:57.480 trying to like actually, who are not suggesting a car 3:31:57.600 --> 3:32:01.160 serrale solution to the fact that it's unpleasant to see 3:32:01.200 --> 3:32:05.760 people suffering on the street, Um are wrong because look 3:32:05.800 --> 3:32:07.680 at what the news tells me about how much worse 3:32:07.800 --> 3:32:11.840 violence has gotten and stuff like I it's very frustrating. 3:32:13.000 --> 3:32:16.520 Don't vote for Renigans Hollace, but yeah, please please don't 3:32:16.640 --> 3:32:19.040 vote for a man who donated to a Republican pack 3:32:19.760 --> 3:32:22.880 six months after January six Lets please please let's not 3:32:23.040 --> 3:32:30.600 do that. But god, it's it's I think, like really 3:32:30.879 --> 3:32:34.680 sad that. I mean, like people I think really just 3:32:34.840 --> 3:32:38.600 don't want to think about how damaged all of society 3:32:38.720 --> 3:32:41.480 is right now. Yeah, my wait, like we lived through 3:32:42.360 --> 3:32:45.400 you know, I currently had one of the worst responses 3:32:45.520 --> 3:32:53.320 to COVID. Uh, millions of people are dead. Um, our 3:32:53.600 --> 3:32:57.200 mental health is fucking shot through un people who didn't 3:32:57.320 --> 3:33:01.240 experience sort of federal jack boots on the ground, Um, 3:33:03.240 --> 3:33:07.280 we're not well right like it. It's any number of 3:33:08.200 --> 3:33:12.520 housed perfectly like financially stable people turned to substance abuse 3:33:12.600 --> 3:33:18.640 during this period. Um, and uh are are still you know, recovering. Um. 3:33:19.280 --> 3:33:22.880 People who are unhoused also turned to substance abuse if 3:33:22.920 --> 3:33:27.440 they weren't um already there, and their mental health is 3:33:27.440 --> 3:33:31.880 also shot there and uh sort of the upshot of 3:33:31.959 --> 3:33:35.200 this is everyone is fucking sick and taking it out 3:33:35.240 --> 3:33:42.400 on each other, and it really sucks to see It 3:33:42.520 --> 3:33:46.480 really sucks to see people be their worst selves increasingly 3:33:46.520 --> 3:33:50.000 and increasingly. Yeah. And I first off, I want to 3:33:50.040 --> 3:33:52.200 try to provide people with some objective numbers. And this 3:33:52.320 --> 3:33:54.600 is just on the City of Portland's So Portland's number one, 3:33:54.680 --> 3:33:57.440 never defunded its police. There are police currently get the 3:33:57.520 --> 3:34:00.480 most money they've ever gotten. Um. But we do have 3:34:00.720 --> 3:34:02.760 one thing that is accurate to say is we have 3:34:03.000 --> 3:34:05.360 fewer police per capita than any major city in the 3:34:05.480 --> 3:34:08.480 United States, and we have the fewest number of police 3:34:08.520 --> 3:34:11.840 on the force in living memory. I'm fairly certain right 3:34:11.879 --> 3:34:15.240 now there's like seven hundred Portland police officers, which is 3:34:15.280 --> 3:34:19.840 significantly down from because it's not a pleasant job, because 3:34:19.879 --> 3:34:22.000 people hate the cops here in Portland, so they keep 3:34:22.080 --> 3:34:25.920 quitting and moving to other cities. UM. And it is 3:34:26.040 --> 3:34:29.000 true that when the pandemic hit, violent crime in Portland 3:34:29.120 --> 3:34:31.840 raised by about two hundred and seven percent from January 3:34:32.240 --> 3:34:36.320 nine through June, which is the largest increase compared to 3:34:36.400 --> 3:34:38.960 five comparable cities. This is from an article in the 3:34:39.040 --> 3:34:44.840 Oregon Capital Chronicle, Minneapolis, Atlanta, San Francisco, Denver, and Nashville. UM. However, 3:34:45.640 --> 3:34:48.280 it's also worth noting that over the course of the 3:34:48.680 --> 3:34:52.200 last year, we're at seven a fewer homicides than we 3:34:52.280 --> 3:34:55.599 were the year before. UM. Overall, the number of homicides 3:34:55.840 --> 3:34:59.760 in two has fallen two percent from one, even as 3:35:00.160 --> 3:35:03.160 we continue to have fewer and fewer police, almost as 3:35:03.200 --> 3:35:06.560 if the surgeon violent crime was not a result in policing, 3:35:06.720 --> 3:35:08.880 but as you said, the result of a lot of 3:35:08.959 --> 3:35:12.680 other factors around the pandemic and around the economic situation, 3:35:13.240 --> 3:35:17.080 and like the rate of violence has been continuing to decrease. 3:35:17.280 --> 3:35:21.080 It's also worth noting that while we're talking about homicides 3:35:21.160 --> 3:35:24.320 here in Portland did see a surgeon homicides during the pandemic, 3:35:24.959 --> 3:35:27.000 that's not the only kind of crime or the only 3:35:27.120 --> 3:35:29.680 kind of violent crime. UM. And I want to quote 3:35:29.720 --> 3:35:33.680 here from Travel Oregon. In February one, the Major Cities 3:35:33.720 --> 3:35:36.320 Chiefs Association issue to report noting that sixty three of 3:35:36.360 --> 3:35:38.720 sixty six major cities saw at least one violent crime 3:35:38.800 --> 3:35:42.680 category grow in. Among cities of comparable size, Portland's generally 3:35:42.760 --> 3:35:46.560 experiences violent crime at somewhat lower rates. Like the a 3:35:46.720 --> 3:35:49.320 lot of this is media driven, and it's specifically the 3:35:49.400 --> 3:35:51.680 thing that you highlighted in the post that that made 3:35:51.720 --> 3:35:55.119 me reach out to you was was talking about how 3:35:55.720 --> 3:35:59.840 particularly white suburbanite homeowners are driving this panic in our 3:36:00.040 --> 3:36:04.279 driving these kind of surge and very like fascist solutions 3:36:04.480 --> 3:36:08.600 to the fears that they have about homelessness and about crime. 3:36:09.000 --> 3:36:10.600 And one of the reasons why this ship works is 3:36:10.680 --> 3:36:12.760 is people don't go into the city. They live in 3:36:12.840 --> 3:36:16.000 the suburbs. They see the scary news. And that's the 3:36:16.080 --> 3:36:18.240 thing I don't know how to actually combat because it 3:36:18.520 --> 3:36:22.039 is a nationwide problem. Shootings and deaths due to shootings. 3:36:22.760 --> 3:36:25.240 They have increased since the pandemic. But if you look 3:36:25.280 --> 3:36:29.439 at them on like a twenty year graph, fairly flat nationwide, 3:36:29.959 --> 3:36:35.760 um but has right, like the statistics of gun crimes 3:36:35.800 --> 3:36:37.560 like what in like the last couple of years. And 3:36:37.640 --> 3:36:41.560 then now they're saying that gun violence has increased, like 3:36:41.640 --> 3:36:45.280 it's it's yeah, yeah, anyway, what had What we know 3:36:45.400 --> 3:36:48.879 what has increased vastly more than gun crime is reporting 3:36:48.920 --> 3:36:51.480 on gun crime, which has surged it like and and 3:36:51.640 --> 3:36:54.080 that's because you know, if it bleeds, it leads in whatever. 3:36:54.160 --> 3:36:56.520 But it is this thing of like that's the stuff 3:36:56.560 --> 3:36:58.680 that gets people to pay attention, and it's the stuff 3:36:58.720 --> 3:37:01.280 that spreads on social media, just like pictures of like 3:37:01.320 --> 3:37:03.560 poop on the streets of San Francisco can spread on 3:37:03.680 --> 3:37:08.040 social media and it it all exists to keep these 3:37:08.120 --> 3:37:11.240 kind of suburban voters at a constant state of agitation, 3:37:11.360 --> 3:37:13.840 which makes them easy to manipulate. And like that's the 3:37:13.879 --> 3:37:17.800 thing that scares me the most. Yeah, I mean things 3:37:17.840 --> 3:37:21.680 are almost shittier with Portland because well, like, okay, the 3:37:21.879 --> 3:37:24.080 same Randisco poop situation. So I used to live in 3:37:24.120 --> 3:37:29.000 the Bay Area. That was a real situation. Francis is 3:37:29.040 --> 3:37:32.200 just human. There's just human ship everywhere. Um, it's you know, 3:37:32.520 --> 3:37:34.840 you you live with it. It's it just is what 3:37:35.000 --> 3:37:37.080 it is. And you know someone's from New York when 3:37:37.080 --> 3:37:39.680 they start complaining about it, right, like, it's uh and 3:37:40.320 --> 3:37:44.039 it I think New York which smells like p everywhere, 3:37:44.080 --> 3:37:46.480 but I mean it's it's most like hot garbage because 3:37:46.480 --> 3:37:48.400 they don't they don't take their garbage. They like just 3:37:48.520 --> 3:37:51.400 put their garbage out on the curb and when it's summertime, 3:37:51.440 --> 3:37:57.680 it just smells fucking terrible. Um. But uh so everyone's 3:37:57.720 --> 3:38:01.640 got their problems. But it's it's this like weird thing 3:38:01.720 --> 3:38:04.400 where just because of the way that we're drawn up geographically, 3:38:04.480 --> 3:38:07.000 we've got all of these people, like like you said, 3:38:07.240 --> 3:38:10.560 like out in the burbs who vote who have control 3:38:10.680 --> 3:38:14.320 over the way the wind blows, who just never come 3:38:14.360 --> 3:38:18.119 out here. Ever in this they never come out here 3:38:18.800 --> 3:38:23.800 and uh in San Francisco, Like yeah, they've got outlying 3:38:23.879 --> 3:38:28.320 areas as well, but it's it's not drawn up exactly 3:38:28.400 --> 3:38:31.440 the way that we are quite right, Like like the 3:38:31.480 --> 3:38:33.720 people who are going to be the most alarmist about 3:38:33.760 --> 3:38:37.440 San Francisco are like not going to be in the 3:38:37.600 --> 3:38:40.760 area where they're voting about the things that happened to 3:38:41.120 --> 3:38:43.840 San Francisco. The way that Chazi stuff went down, Like 3:38:46.520 --> 3:38:49.760 I mean, that's complicated, right, Like I mean it was 3:38:50.040 --> 3:38:53.720 it was a witch hunt and it made me really 3:38:56.920 --> 3:38:58.560 in San Francis and made me really want to never 3:38:58.640 --> 3:39:04.120 move back. But it it was like we've we've just 3:39:04.240 --> 3:39:07.120 got a different sort of set up here where the 3:39:07.240 --> 3:39:10.720 people who are the most upset about all of the 3:39:10.800 --> 3:39:14.600 crime in Portland, like they don't come out to where 3:39:14.640 --> 3:39:17.440 they think the crime is happening at all, Like they 3:39:17.600 --> 3:39:21.280 like they just don't really interact with the city. They're 3:39:21.320 --> 3:39:28.160 off somewhere else. And it's it is truly strange, really annoying. 3:39:28.720 --> 3:39:32.280 Uh yeah, and it is this is like I don't know, 3:39:32.400 --> 3:39:34.920 this is part of why this is part of why 3:39:34.959 --> 3:39:40.039 politically I tend to align myself with like libertarian municipalism. Um. 3:39:40.400 --> 3:39:42.560 I think one of the problems we have is that 3:39:44.720 --> 3:39:47.000 places that have very little to do with each other 3:39:47.200 --> 3:39:50.520 get to pass laws that impact how people live in 3:39:50.640 --> 3:39:54.760 those those places, Like which is a problem, um as 3:39:54.800 --> 3:39:57.400 we all just got overseeing with fucking Donald Trump, right, 3:39:57.480 --> 3:39:59.440 Like that's a that's a version of the problem in 3:39:59.520 --> 3:40:01.560 a version. Another version of the problem is that like 3:40:01.680 --> 3:40:04.760 people in Los Angeles can pass a gas tax that 3:40:04.840 --> 3:40:07.520 makes total sense for cities in California, but fox over 3:40:07.800 --> 3:40:10.680 people who live in the middle of nowhere. Um. And 3:40:10.760 --> 3:40:14.680 all of these things are like, I don't know, it's 3:40:14.760 --> 3:40:20.280 the you get the it's too simultaneous issues. Like one 3:40:20.360 --> 3:40:23.760 of them is you've got these liberals in Portland, who 3:40:23.959 --> 3:40:29.720 the rest of the state resents for dominating politics in 3:40:29.760 --> 3:40:31.959 the entire state, even in areas that are very little 3:40:31.959 --> 3:40:34.920 to do with like western Oregon. And then you have 3:40:35.200 --> 3:40:38.600 these these outlying like you have these folks who don't 3:40:38.640 --> 3:40:41.160 live in Portland, who you know, are pushing for like 3:40:41.240 --> 3:40:43.040 you know, who are responsible with the fact that we 3:40:43.120 --> 3:40:46.680 might get a Republican governor in the state, right, who 3:40:46.720 --> 3:40:49.760 are reacting to like what they hear about Portland, even 3:40:49.800 --> 3:40:52.520 though it's not accurate, and I don't know. I I 3:40:53.200 --> 3:40:55.080 this is we're getting past like what people can do 3:40:55.200 --> 3:40:58.440 in terms of like voting on local elections. But I 3:40:58.520 --> 3:41:01.720 wish we had a system and which like folks weren't 3:41:01.760 --> 3:41:04.200 constantly pitted against each other in this way, because I 3:41:04.240 --> 3:41:07.520 don't think it's very productive. Well, we're chopped up in 3:41:08.040 --> 3:41:11.920 a really by the way, I vote to charter reform, etcetera. 3:41:11.959 --> 3:41:15.400 If you live in Portland. Uh, like we've we've got 3:41:15.560 --> 3:41:19.400 some some other other things going on with our our 3:41:19.440 --> 3:41:26.000 city government that makes things additionally weird and um, suboptimal. 3:41:27.080 --> 3:41:29.480 There's a bunch of things that I'm kind of dreading 3:41:29.640 --> 3:41:32.960 in the near future or from the midterm elections, including 3:41:33.440 --> 3:41:36.840 you know, Renee Gonzalez. Um, you know, I I have 3:41:37.000 --> 3:41:39.920 strong feelings on the proposed gun control measure, but um, 3:41:40.080 --> 3:41:43.960 I'm broadly optimistic about charter reform. That actually seems like 3:41:44.080 --> 3:41:47.480 something good that we're likely to do. Yeah, um, yeah, 3:41:47.600 --> 3:41:49.640 let's talk about that a little bit, because Portland would 3:41:49.640 --> 3:41:53.120 be the first city in the United States to reform 3:41:53.400 --> 3:41:56.000 its city council along these lines. If I'm not mistaken, 3:41:56.920 --> 3:42:00.680 along which lines like the way they try to reform 3:42:00.879 --> 3:42:04.400 is like set up um. So basically Portland's currently has 3:42:04.560 --> 3:42:07.200 a commission form of government in which we have a 3:42:07.360 --> 3:42:12.520 very powerful mayor and for city council people who are 3:42:12.800 --> 3:42:17.280 handed portfolios by the mayor and they basically run the 3:42:17.360 --> 3:42:22.800 city government. Um. Which is it's a pretty dysfunctional system. UM. 3:42:23.000 --> 3:42:26.520 It leads to a a small number of people running 3:42:26.640 --> 3:42:29.720 very large bureaucracies that they usually don't know how to handle, 3:42:30.160 --> 3:42:32.320 which is one of the reasons why the city is 3:42:32.400 --> 3:42:34.879 so dysfunctional, in addition to the fact that our Mayor 3:42:35.120 --> 3:42:40.520 Ted Wheeler is uh politely speaking dogshit. Under the new 3:42:40.640 --> 3:42:43.440 form of government that's that's being voted on right now, 3:42:43.560 --> 3:42:48.160 the charter, the commission structure will be jettisoned. City council 3:42:48.240 --> 3:42:52.160 members will not directly manage bureaus. Instead, they'll pass laws 3:42:52.280 --> 3:42:54.920 and meet with constituents. The mayor will no longer be 3:42:55.040 --> 3:42:58.440 part of the city council. Instead, he'll lead the executive branch. 3:42:59.200 --> 3:43:01.560 I'm not wild about the amount of power that the 3:43:01.640 --> 3:43:05.920 mayor will still have, UM, but I think broadly speaking, uh, 3:43:06.200 --> 3:43:08.760 it's it's a much better system and there will be 3:43:08.959 --> 3:43:12.920 like a larger group of people involved in actually like 3:43:13.160 --> 3:43:18.200 managing the city's affairs. UM. I don't know. What we 3:43:18.320 --> 3:43:24.440 have currently certainly is not particularly effective. Um. And I 3:43:24.480 --> 3:43:30.119 would like to see a more democratic system put into place. Yeah, 3:43:30.600 --> 3:43:35.560 and obscenely outdated. Right, it's like, Yeah, I don't know 3:43:35.959 --> 3:43:40.400 who else does things like Portland's currently does, but the 3:43:40.520 --> 3:43:45.080 charter reform is greatly needed. Yeah, and it's going to 3:43:45.160 --> 3:43:47.920 bring in rank choice voting as well, when people vote 3:43:48.040 --> 3:43:51.400 on yeah, on their on their like city like, which 3:43:51.520 --> 3:43:55.120 is uh. Like. One of the issues that we've had 3:43:55.200 --> 3:43:57.080 here is that like that we're having right now with 3:43:57.200 --> 3:44:01.280 like the gubernatorial race is that, um, you've got three 3:44:01.360 --> 3:44:04.640 candidates running, one of whom is kind of positioning themselves 3:44:04.640 --> 3:44:07.040 as an independent Betsey Johnson, who does not really have 3:44:07.640 --> 3:44:10.840 a chance to win um, and seems to be being 3:44:10.879 --> 3:44:13.440 funded by people like the Nike guy in order to 3:44:13.520 --> 3:44:16.440 take voids away from Tina co Tech, who's the Democratic candidate, 3:44:17.480 --> 3:44:21.640 so that Christine Drayson, who's the Republican candidate, will be 3:44:21.720 --> 3:44:23.880 more likely to win. I don't know, Like, UM, I 3:44:24.200 --> 3:44:26.600 still don't know how much I believe Drayson actually has 3:44:26.640 --> 3:44:28.959 a shot, but the polls show them neck and neck 3:44:29.440 --> 3:44:34.600 soos are pretty terrifying. Um, yeah, we're we're kind of 3:44:34.680 --> 3:44:38.680 like covering on the cusp of of the governor seat 3:44:38.720 --> 3:44:48.480 going red to Yeah, it's yeah, I don't know. Um yeah, 3:44:48.560 --> 3:44:51.760 that's the election that scares me, Like I really do. 3:44:51.959 --> 3:44:54.400 I really don't want to see Renee Gonzala's win. But 3:44:55.720 --> 3:45:00.560 the if charter reform passes, like the the arm that 3:45:00.720 --> 3:45:04.520 he can inflict on the city becomes limited, just because 3:45:05.440 --> 3:45:10.160 right now, city council seats just have outsized power in 3:45:10.240 --> 3:45:16.320 a very dysfunctional way. And uh, it's and that that 3:45:16.480 --> 3:45:18.680 changes with stry to reform, like we just get a 3:45:18.720 --> 3:45:22.480 little bit more of a normal city. Um and uh. 3:45:23.840 --> 3:45:27.760 But the state, the state election though, that is that's 3:45:27.800 --> 3:45:34.880 pretty scary stuff. Yeah, the state, especially since if the 3:45:34.959 --> 3:45:38.240 Democrats stay in power at the state level, then there's 3:45:38.240 --> 3:45:41.120 a good chance that I mean as far as like 3:45:41.240 --> 3:45:43.760 what people are talking about, then we're going to actually 3:45:43.920 --> 3:45:47.640 see like Portland become or Oregon become a sanctuary for 3:45:48.920 --> 3:45:51.200 reproductive health. Right Like that's one of the things that's 3:45:51.240 --> 3:45:57.440 that's on the ballot. Um. So if you uh, like 3:45:57.600 --> 3:46:01.200 if you care about that, that's kind of the whole game, right, 3:46:01.320 --> 3:46:04.000 Like regardless of the fact that co Tech has a 3:46:04.120 --> 3:46:07.840 history with our current governor that's not entirely positive. Our 3:46:07.840 --> 3:46:10.560 current Democratic governor has been a ship governor and handled 3:46:10.560 --> 3:46:13.000 the pandemic terribly. Like, at the end of the day, 3:46:13.120 --> 3:46:17.160 it's it kind of has to be all about um uh, 3:46:17.720 --> 3:46:22.920 all about reproductive health, right because like the Republicans would 3:46:22.959 --> 3:46:26.720 not have handled the pandemic any better. Um, but they 3:46:26.760 --> 3:46:31.240 will also support a crackdown against people having access to abortion. 3:46:31.760 --> 3:46:34.440 We also have the craziest Republicans out here like it, 3:46:34.600 --> 3:46:38.879 And I mean part of that is the areas are 3:46:38.879 --> 3:46:41.320 representing or whatever, but part of it is also just 3:46:41.560 --> 3:46:44.120 we've been under Democratic control for so long that like 3:46:44.200 --> 3:46:47.760 the minority party gets weirder and weirder and weirder, like 3:46:47.920 --> 3:46:50.240 we've got we've got the guys who, like what, ran 3:46:50.280 --> 3:46:52.600 away from the legislative session rather than vote on a 3:46:52.680 --> 3:46:56.040 climate change bill. Al Right, Like it's it's not it's 3:46:56.080 --> 3:46:59.360 not good. It's really bad. Like handing ending them the 3:46:59.440 --> 3:47:03.640 keys of the king him is a terrible move. Yeah, 3:47:04.800 --> 3:47:07.080 I don't know what else to say, Uh you get 3:47:07.080 --> 3:47:09.000 anything else to say? As we as we head into 3:47:09.080 --> 3:47:12.760 the midterm elections here in Oregon, I felt like, I 3:47:12.760 --> 3:47:16.760 don't know, this is broadly speaking, I really want to 3:47:16.800 --> 3:47:21.000 hear about your your your feelings on that gun control measure. Yeah, 3:47:22.520 --> 3:47:24.920 so we've got Measure one fourteen coming up, which is 3:47:25.120 --> 3:47:29.320 um gun control. So for people who don't know, uh, 3:47:29.360 --> 3:47:31.240 and this may surprise folks even how blue it is, 3:47:31.320 --> 3:47:34.640 Oregon basically does not have any kind of like gun 3:47:34.760 --> 3:47:36.880 control laws. Um. This is a This is a state 3:47:36.959 --> 3:47:39.440 in which any kind of gun that's legal to own 3:47:39.480 --> 3:47:41.680 in the United States and any kind of magazine you 3:47:41.800 --> 3:47:44.960 can own in the state of Oregon. Um, we are 3:47:45.000 --> 3:47:47.680 a shall issue state, which means if you are a 3:47:47.800 --> 3:47:51.000 law abiding citizen and you apply for concealed cary permit, 3:47:51.040 --> 3:47:54.000 they have to give it to you. Um. Gun owners 3:47:54.080 --> 3:47:57.400 have quite a few protections at present. Uh. The first 3:47:57.920 --> 3:48:01.400 major there was a gun control law passed in most 3:48:01.520 --> 3:48:03.920 reasonable gun owners had no issue with it because all 3:48:03.959 --> 3:48:06.320 it did was say you have to get a background 3:48:06.360 --> 3:48:08.480 check to you. So there's this thing called face to 3:48:08.520 --> 3:48:11.080 face sales, whereby in a lot of states like Texas, 3:48:11.160 --> 3:48:13.400 you can just hand somebody a gun for cash as 3:48:13.440 --> 3:48:16.040 long as you're not a professional gun dealer. That's that's legal, 3:48:16.480 --> 3:48:19.440 and that's that's bad generally, it's how a lot of 3:48:19.480 --> 3:48:22.280 guns get across the border that was removed as a 3:48:22.360 --> 3:48:24.840 legal possibility in Oregon back in But other than that, 3:48:24.959 --> 3:48:27.040 we haven't had a whole lot of gun control UM 3:48:27.160 --> 3:48:31.160 in the wake of the Vivaldi shooting, a an organization 3:48:31.400 --> 3:48:33.480 I think Lift Every Voice is what they're called, led 3:48:33.520 --> 3:48:37.240 by some church leaders, pushed for what a ballot measure. 3:48:37.360 --> 3:48:39.840 So this is not something where and I do think 3:48:39.879 --> 3:48:43.080 this is interesting, there's not a situation where democratic politicians 3:48:43.120 --> 3:48:47.160 in the state of Oregon are trying to pass gun control. 3:48:47.240 --> 3:48:50.160 This is a situation in which a ballot measure was 3:48:50.240 --> 3:48:53.960 proposed and enough people voted that the entire state is 3:48:54.080 --> 3:48:58.000 voting on whether or not to have gun control UM, which, 3:48:58.080 --> 3:49:01.320 regardless of my opinions on the measure itself, I think 3:49:01.400 --> 3:49:03.240 is a better way for stuff like this to work 3:49:03.280 --> 3:49:05.640 than a bunch of legislators just like making a law. 3:49:05.720 --> 3:49:09.040 But anyway, the measure itself is, in my opinion, deeply 3:49:09.080 --> 3:49:10.560 flawed in the way that it's written. It does a 3:49:10.600 --> 3:49:13.480 couple of things. For one thing, it requires that every 3:49:14.320 --> 3:49:16.480 person who buy a gun pass a background check, which 3:49:16.520 --> 3:49:18.880 is already the law that's in the bill, and it 3:49:18.920 --> 3:49:21.800 shouldn't be because it's already the law. I think one 3:49:21.880 --> 3:49:23.800 of the things that reasons I think that's dishonest is 3:49:23.840 --> 3:49:25.840 because it always gets summarized and like, this is what 3:49:25.960 --> 3:49:28.080 the bill will do. It will require that everybody pass 3:49:28.120 --> 3:49:30.360 a backgroundch of well, they're all they're already required. It 3:49:30.440 --> 3:49:34.840 does not actually do anything there. Um. It adds in 3:49:35.200 --> 3:49:38.400 a magazine capacity restrictions, and you won't be able to 3:49:38.520 --> 3:49:41.280 buy or take out in public magazines that have a 3:49:41.400 --> 3:49:43.680 higher capacity than ten rounds. We can talk about that 3:49:43.680 --> 3:49:45.840 in a second. And then the primary thing it does 3:49:45.960 --> 3:49:49.960 is it requires people pass a series of tests in 3:49:50.160 --> 3:49:52.800 order to purchase firearms, and the people who will be 3:49:52.920 --> 3:49:57.760 a ministering those tests and running the whole program are 3:49:57.840 --> 3:50:01.360 the police. So the police essentially get control over who 3:50:01.480 --> 3:50:06.560 gets to own firearms. UM. I do consider that that 3:50:06.760 --> 3:50:09.600 is particularly the thing that I find problematic. Um. For 3:50:09.720 --> 3:50:13.560 one thing, regardless of your opinions on gun control, the 3:50:13.800 --> 3:50:16.600 right to bear arms is similar to the right to 3:50:16.800 --> 3:50:18.960 freedom of speech and guaranteed in the same way, and 3:50:19.040 --> 3:50:20.880 so the fact that the police are being made the 3:50:21.000 --> 3:50:23.840 arbiters of who gets to exercise that right is deeply problematic. 3:50:23.960 --> 3:50:27.880 To me, UM, I think, given what we know about 3:50:27.960 --> 3:50:30.880 how often police in Oregon work with far right groups, 3:50:31.040 --> 3:50:34.480 work with organizations like the Proud Boys, UM, it is 3:50:34.640 --> 3:50:39.520 very likely that we will see uneven enforcement and uneven um. 3:50:40.840 --> 3:50:45.480 Uh like the police granting the ability to bear arms 3:50:45.640 --> 3:50:49.320 very unevenly, which concerns me greatly. We had a mass 3:50:49.360 --> 3:50:52.160 shooting earlier this year at a protest in which a 3:50:52.320 --> 3:50:55.440 right winger killed a woman, UH, sixty one year old 3:50:55.440 --> 3:50:59.200 woman and injured five other people. That person was stopped 3:50:59.280 --> 3:51:01.360 by a left wing demonstrator with an a R fifteen 3:51:01.400 --> 3:51:04.240 style rifle. UM. What was actually technically a handgun, but 3:51:04.320 --> 3:51:08.160 that's anyway. Whatever, it was an a R fifteen style weapon. UM. 3:51:08.680 --> 3:51:11.840 I'm concerned that under this new law, the right winger 3:51:11.960 --> 3:51:14.320 would have still had the ability to acquire firearms, but 3:51:14.360 --> 3:51:18.000 the person who stopped and would not. UM. So that's 3:51:18.040 --> 3:51:19.880 why I have an issue with it. I also think, 3:51:20.000 --> 3:51:23.600 if you're going to I'm not. I don't personally advocate 3:51:23.960 --> 3:51:28.280 magazine capacity restrictions, but also I don't speak out against them. 3:51:28.760 --> 3:51:33.280 Washington recently passed a law restricting magazine capacity. I didn't 3:51:33.280 --> 3:51:36.320 say anything about that. I think maybe I I think 3:51:36.360 --> 3:51:39.840 if it like, if it works, I will be happy. Um. 3:51:40.000 --> 3:51:42.440 I think the way the Washington law was written was 3:51:42.480 --> 3:51:45.040 a lot more sensible than the Oregon law because it 3:51:45.200 --> 3:51:47.400 was written in such a way that it stops the 3:51:47.560 --> 3:51:51.880 additional sale of expand of standard capacity magazines of thirty 3:51:51.960 --> 3:51:56.360 round magazines and higher without giving the police an opportunity 3:51:56.480 --> 3:51:59.640 to harass and arrest people over what they own, um, 3:52:00.000 --> 3:52:02.160 which I think is important. The way the law is written, 3:52:02.320 --> 3:52:04.960 if you had, like whatever you had prior to the 3:52:05.040 --> 3:52:08.520 band taking effect, you can keep and continue to use 3:52:08.720 --> 3:52:11.720 as normal, um, just no more it can be sold. 3:52:11.760 --> 3:52:13.360 And so the thing that the thing you're trying to 3:52:13.440 --> 3:52:15.760 stop with a magazine capacity band at this point is 3:52:15.800 --> 3:52:18.320 someone doing what the Valdi shooter did right, where a 3:52:18.400 --> 3:52:20.080 kid goes out and buys a weapon and a bunch 3:52:20.120 --> 3:52:23.240 of thirty round magazines and then goes on a mass shooting. Right, 3:52:23.320 --> 3:52:24.920 you want them to not be able to go and 3:52:25.000 --> 3:52:29.280 immediately acquire those magazines. Um it is I think by 3:52:29.720 --> 3:52:31.920 making it illegal to take them out in the world 3:52:31.960 --> 3:52:34.520 if you already own them, what you're doing is giving 3:52:34.640 --> 3:52:38.680 police pretext to stop and search people, um, to like 3:52:38.840 --> 3:52:41.760 search people going out and shooting in the woods like 3:52:41.880 --> 3:52:45.200 folks do in Oregon, um, without having an impact on 3:52:45.800 --> 3:52:48.840 mass shooters, because they're not going to care about violating 3:52:48.920 --> 3:52:51.040 that particular law. If you want to stop more of 3:52:51.120 --> 3:52:53.640 those things from being sold, I think a law written 3:52:53.680 --> 3:52:57.200 the way the Washington law is written does the maximum 3:52:57.280 --> 3:52:59.600 in order to restrict people from purchasing the thing you 3:52:59.640 --> 3:53:04.160 don't want them to purchase without giving police the ability 3:53:04.240 --> 3:53:08.200 to like harass and arrest people. Um. Anyway, that's that's 3:53:08.240 --> 3:53:13.480 my thinking on one fourteen. Yeah, yeah, I think that's 3:53:13.600 --> 3:53:17.600 that's like an important as an important series of distinctions 3:53:17.640 --> 3:53:21.920 to get out there. Yeah, um, anyway, I I voted 3:53:21.960 --> 3:53:25.800 against it. I try, really, I actually do try, despite 3:53:25.840 --> 3:53:28.880 my opinions not to talk about gun control too much 3:53:28.920 --> 3:53:31.360 on this show. But like that's my my thinking on 3:53:31.400 --> 3:53:33.800 the matter. Folks can do whatever they want. Will know 3:53:33.880 --> 3:53:38.400 when on January or November eight how they voted. Yeah, 3:53:38.560 --> 3:53:43.240 I mean, like it's hardly the most disturbing things on 3:53:43.320 --> 3:53:46.480 the Balett right now. Yeah, no, no, no, And I 3:53:46.640 --> 3:53:51.560 am like, like I there's there's so much going on 3:53:51.800 --> 3:53:54.440 right now, and it's one of those things I guess 3:53:54.480 --> 3:53:57.600 we'll all learn in the near future, like we're gonna 3:53:57.680 --> 3:54:01.480 learn a lot from this election in Oregon, Like, if 3:54:01.520 --> 3:54:04.760 hardesty stays on, if we get charter reform, and if 3:54:04.800 --> 3:54:08.360 co Tech wins, then kind of regardless of what happens 3:54:08.400 --> 3:54:11.000 with one fourteen, I will be broadly optimistic heading into 3:54:12.280 --> 3:54:16.000 because it will show that the campaign of fear didn't 3:54:16.040 --> 3:54:22.360 work entirely. Yeah. Um, and if Gonzales and and Drayson 3:54:22.400 --> 3:54:25.360 win and shatter reform gets defeated, I will be really 3:54:25.480 --> 3:54:30.560 pessimistic heading in. Yeah. Yeah, if if drays and wins, 3:54:30.600 --> 3:54:37.960 like that's yeah, it's ah yeah, it's it's bad. It's 3:54:38.000 --> 3:54:44.080 really bad. It's bad news for a lot of fucking reasons. 3:54:44.320 --> 3:54:49.880 Um yeah, I mean row, that's huge. Um yeah. But yeah, 3:54:49.960 --> 3:54:54.360 like it's the sky's the limit for a a state 3:54:54.440 --> 3:54:58.040 that has been under democratic control for this long, right, 3:54:58.120 --> 3:55:02.080 Like it's it's they've just gotten so complacent, is all 3:55:02.160 --> 3:55:05.000 I can think. Um oh, I mean the spoiler candidate 3:55:05.080 --> 3:55:10.480 obviously that that did change a lot. Um, but it's 3:55:11.600 --> 3:55:19.040 the complacency was is alarming. Yeah. Um, well, is there 3:55:19.040 --> 3:55:24.400 anything else you wanted to say about what we're heading into? Uh? Well, 3:55:24.880 --> 3:55:29.720 I mean, don't let your fear control you. Um, don't 3:55:29.760 --> 3:55:34.640 be a useful idiot for Nazis, and uh, don't put 3:55:34.680 --> 3:55:40.720 people into camps. I guess yeah, that's that's my thinking. 3:55:40.840 --> 3:55:44.160 Don't Like, if somebody is trying to make you scared 3:55:45.200 --> 3:55:47.720 about a group of people who are the most powerless 3:55:47.800 --> 3:55:51.560 people in your community, you might want to assume that 3:55:51.720 --> 3:55:54.880 the person doing that is trying to take advantage of you. Um, 3:55:55.440 --> 3:55:58.240 that's that's that's kind of where I land on this 3:55:58.360 --> 3:56:01.840 sort of stuff. Um, yeah, don't put people into camps. 3:56:02.480 --> 3:56:05.880 We really shouldn't have to say that anymore, but yeah, 3:56:06.120 --> 3:56:08.280 we should have to tell people to not be Patrick 3:56:08.360 --> 3:56:11.360 Bateman from fucking American right, Like it's like we should 3:56:11.400 --> 3:56:15.840 people should like but no, it's yeah, we've we should 3:56:15.880 --> 3:56:19.880 not be regressing this hard in terms of our moral compasses. 3:56:20.000 --> 3:56:22.920 But that's where we are. That's where we are. Well 3:56:23.560 --> 3:56:26.720 do you want to plug your plug? Double Sarah? Yeah? So, uh, 3:56:27.720 --> 3:56:31.600 Rerobert mentioned that I just put out a big feature 3:56:31.680 --> 3:56:35.520 about the Portland van abductions published on the Verge. Um. 3:56:36.200 --> 3:56:39.640 It's part of a longer series, uh that we did 3:56:39.720 --> 3:56:42.560 this year about the Department of Homeland Security, which is 3:56:42.960 --> 3:56:46.000 twenty years old this year. Um, So we did a 3:56:46.080 --> 3:56:50.800 bunch of features, some about Puerto Rico and FEMA. Uh, 3:56:51.040 --> 3:56:53.600 some about the t s A. Of course I did 3:56:53.680 --> 3:56:56.240 a short little thing about how Chad Wolfe was illegally 3:56:56.280 --> 3:56:59.840 ahead of the DHS for a hot minute. Um, and 3:57:00.280 --> 3:57:03.160 so there's some fun stuff in there. Um. We've still 3:57:03.240 --> 3:57:05.040 got another feature that will go up by the end 3:57:05.080 --> 3:57:08.880 of this year. I think your your listeners would enjoy 3:57:09.080 --> 3:57:12.840 going through some of those excellent. All right, well, that 3:57:13.000 --> 3:57:15.800 has been the episode. This has been It Could Happen Here? 3:57:16.360 --> 3:57:25.000 Um bye, Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes 3:57:25.200 --> 3:57:27.640 every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:57:28.240 --> 3:57:30.600 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:57:30.840 --> 3:57:33.480 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:57:33.520 --> 3:57:35.640 cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3:57:35.720 --> 3:57:38.200 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:57:38.280 --> 3:57:40.880 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 3:57:40.880 --> 3:57:43.840 Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 3:57:43.960 --> 3:57:45.800 slash sources. Thanks for listening.