1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to another 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: episode it could happen here. I'm your guest host of 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: this episode where I'm hoping to take a woman to 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: discuss the commons, the principles of successful commons management, and 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: why sitting attempts to establish the Commons of field. My name, 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: by the way, is Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: You'd follow me on YouTube dot com slash andrewis m. 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm joined here um with my two cool hosts that 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: will be Garrison Davis Hello, and James Stout. Hi. Awesome. 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: But before I get into exactly what makes the commons work, 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: I least want to discuss what exactly the commons are 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: because despite being you know, common throughout human history, a 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: lot of people can't imagine how they might have wooked 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: what they are. Of course, the commons is a very 22 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: specific definition of particular context of you know, feudalism and whatnot. 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: But even outside of that, the idea of the commons 24 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: is essentially the resources accessible to all members of society, 25 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: the totality of the material riches of that community or 26 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: even of the world, regarded as their whole inheritance, rather 27 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: than being subject at inclosure and to privatization. Even today, 28 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: despite the process of inclosure which is with you of 29 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: its own podcast episode or series of podcast episodes or book, 30 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: even even today they are still you know, viable existing 31 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: commons institutions, and they've in some cases endured for well 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: over a thousand years. Most famously Helena Ostrom, the economists 33 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: who explored the concept in depth and depunct the Tragedy 34 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: of the Commons, wrote in her book Governing the Commons 35 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: that from you know, the alpine meadows of Torbell, Switzerland, 36 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: to the three million hectares of Japanese for us, to 37 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: the irrigation systems of Spain and Philippines, the possibility of 38 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: community of popular rather than public or state or private 39 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: or corporate ownership exists. The possibility of communal ownership as 40 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: opposed to capitalist or state ownership exists. There's also the 41 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: communal land of Chiapas in Mexico after the successful Zaptista Revolution, 42 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: and of course, as I discussed in previous episode, there 43 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: are the Commons of Barbuda, where the entire island of 44 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: the twin island nation of Antiguan and Barbuda is owned 45 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: collectively by all Barbudas and regarded as their collective heritage. 46 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: These projects, of course an art static. The commons and Barbuda, 47 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: for example, existed for about a hundred years, but had 48 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: some precedents prior to that and are now honestly being 49 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 1: encroached upon after the soul shock doctrine of the hurricane 50 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: that ravaged the island has opened up an opportunity for 51 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: again robilious government sort of swooping and privatize the land 52 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: um for the benefit of foreign companies and foreign resorts. 53 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: So the Commons is not this timeless internal institution that 54 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: can't be interrupted, that's never change um. In the case 55 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: in chap Us, you know, they had similar projects, similar 56 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: institutions prior to colonization. Colonization ruled in and interrupted all that, 57 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: and thanks to the Zappleas revolution. They were able to 58 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: institute some semblance of that sort of commons institution, of 59 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: that communal land um for their collective benefits. They respond to, 60 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: experience conditions, to circumstance, to serve or in some cases 61 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: eventually not to the people. But of course, not all 62 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: commons are able to work, not all commons institutions operate effectively, 63 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: and she talks about why, using various keys studies to 64 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: illustrate her points. In the course of governing the commons, 65 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: she used, of course, the existence case studies to develop 66 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: sit in principles that she believed make the commons work, 67 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: the principles that she found in common between Switzerland and 68 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: Japan and the Philippines and Spain, and to then use 69 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: those principles to examine the common institutions that didn't work, 70 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: identified which principles were missing from the equation. But I'm 71 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: talking all about what these principles about, these principles of 72 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: successful commons management, and I haven't broken down what they 73 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: are exactly. So to get into that, the principles of 74 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: successful commons management as follows Number one, clearly defined boundaries. 75 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: Boundaries in the sense of having of those involved the 76 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: appropriators of the commons, the people who are directly access 77 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: in the commons have in a clear sense of structure 78 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: and characteristics of the resource system itself, whether it be 79 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: through a scientific study or through generationally preserved folk knowledge 80 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: as well as knowledge and a clear sense of who 81 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: is involved and withdrawn from and sustaining it. Even if 82 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, even in the case where the entire world 83 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: has been common where all land has been returned to 84 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: common land, to the ownership of none and everyone simultaneously 85 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: in such a case, in individual instances of common pool resources, 86 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: whether it be a forest or a fishery, or a 87 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: lake or groundwater basin, the people most directly accessing those 88 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: that that segment of the commons, that system, that common 89 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: pool resource needs to have a clear sense of exactly 90 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: what that resource entails um, the limits of that resource, 91 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: the renewability of that resource, um, and who is involved 92 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: in withdrawing from and sustaining that resource, so that they're 93 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: able to collaborate. If you know, as in the case 94 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: with the tragedy of the Commons, everybody is just this 95 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: isolated actor, not communicating at all, not collaborating. There's no 96 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: collective institution in place to help them, you know, work 97 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: it out. They basically canna end up in a case 98 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: like the tragedy of the Commons, where the system is 99 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: depleted because nobody has a sense of what anybody else 100 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: is doing. Um, there's no there's no open channel of communication, 101 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: which brings us, of course, to collective decision making power. 102 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: That's the third principle. So I'm jumping ahead slightly, but 103 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: it flows better this way, um having collective decision making 104 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: power over the commons, meaning there's an institution in place 105 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: that these who are drawn from the Commons are able 106 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: to come together and discuss the rules of the Commons. 107 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: How are they going to draw from the Commons, how 108 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: are they going to deal with the Commons, how they're 109 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: gonna deal with each other as they deal with the Commons, 110 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: and so on. And to afford, the idea of rules 111 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: is not anti anarchists as a concept, um, just the 112 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: idea that there is not you know, popular inputs and 113 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: collective inputs and free association in place. Um. And so 114 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: with consensus, with this institution of collective decision making power, 115 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: people be able to come up with and modify the 116 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: rules as it suits their situations, as it's as it 117 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: suits their shift in circumstances. Um. And of course, and 118 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: this is the second principle, that they appropriation and provision 119 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: rules of the Commons are compatible with local conditions. The 120 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: whole ideas that do not relying on any external authorities 121 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: to come up with these rules, to commit to these rules, 122 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: to bind themselves to these rules, even when the temptations 123 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: to violate those rules apply. So as a practice of 124 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: you know, developing community, you need to have some sense 125 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: of shared norms and developing those shared norms over time 126 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: regard and behavior. And of course, as in the case 127 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: in almost of all societies, of course, reputation and one's 128 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: reputation will play a rule. Um, if you are known 129 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: to be consistently violating the Commons rules, of course they're 130 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: going to be social consequences to that. That's just a 131 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: natural consequence. Just because the commons exist doesn't mean that 132 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: people are free of the consequences of how they use 133 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: those comments. Just like in the case of the environment. 134 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: You know, just because you can cut down all the 135 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: trees in the forest, doesn't mean you're free of the 136 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: consequences from cutting on the trees of that forest. Your 137 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: actions are still going to have consequences, whether it be 138 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:28,479 Speaker 1: environmental or social. There are of course limits, as there 139 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: as there are in any other aspect of life. But 140 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: of course simple norms regarding behavior or concerns about reputation 141 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: may help. But you're also going to need the fourth 142 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: and fifth principles established in some form effectively meant in 143 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: social harmony. The fourth principle is of course, monitoring, which 144 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: is the process of continuously evaluating the conditions of the 145 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: common pool resource itself as well as the behavior of 146 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: the appropriators. Now term monitoring, it's kind of spooky, right, 147 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: It sounds a little bit like Big brothers watching you 148 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: kind of fight, But that's not really the intention. It's 149 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: just the idea that it's just this this constant, informal 150 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: process of looking at and observing and collecting data on 151 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: the conditions of the commons, the conditions including how people 152 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: behave with the commons as well as the you know, 153 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: commons themselves, the resources themselves, how much of them we have, 154 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: how quickly they're being you know, renewed, that sort of thing. 155 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: And and through that process of each person, each appropriator 156 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: of the commons, institutions um monitoring the system continuously, you 157 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: begin to learn what rules work and what rules don't, 158 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: and so you can adapt your rules to suit the circumstances, 159 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 1: to suit how people actually behave, which is something in 160 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: that centralized and hierarchical institutions have a bit of trouble doing, 161 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: because when you have this horizontal common institution, you're able 162 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: to look at, Okay, this is how things are going 163 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: so far, and let me we can we can now 164 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: talk about it. We're constantly in this dialogue. We're all 165 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: able to contribute our information in this horizontal system and 166 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: adapt our rules and our behavior to suit. Whereas in 167 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: the pyramid structure of a hierarchical and centralized organization, but 168 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: further up the pyramid ecal yes, the more power there is, 169 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,479 Speaker 1: as centralized institutions tend to have, but also less information 170 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: because the narrowing of the pyramid leads to less and 171 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: less information from the bottom filtering up to the top. 172 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: And so when you have these centralized institutions, rules are 173 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: a lot more rigid because they're not able to respond 174 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: quickly and effectively and as informed as informally um to 175 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: the situations as they arise. That's also why eighty percent 176 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: of the planet's biodiversity is being protected by a very 177 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: small percentage of indigenous people because they are on the ground. 178 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: Because they are they're interact with the systems in real time. 179 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: They're able to respond directly and quickly to changes in 180 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: that biodiverlity, to changes in behavioral in order to maintain 181 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: and sustain that system. Whereas you find that a lot 182 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: of conservation projects, a lot of restoration projects, in environmental 183 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: frustoration projects are feeling you know, I recently read an 184 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: article about how a lot of these tree planting initiatives 185 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: that governments have been doing these days, while you know, 186 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: it gets them good, publicity gets them good, you know, social, social, political, 187 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: international clouds. When you go back one year, two years, 188 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: three years down the line, almost all, if not all, 189 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: the trees are dead. The community is living by these 190 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: reforestation projects, we're not involved in the process. They don't 191 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: have any say in the selection of the trees. In fact, 192 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: the trees aren't always even choosen in accord and with 193 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: local conditions. They often isn't enough biodie felicity in terms 194 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: of the trees. I mean when it comes to a forest, 195 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: and that's what people don't understand. Forests are living organism. 196 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's it has multiple layers, has multiple pasties. 197 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: You just pop us at the trees down and expect 198 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: things to work out. Okay, you know, um James C. 199 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: Scott talks about this in scene like a state. You 200 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: can't just in these states they start these sort of 201 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:52,239 Speaker 1: forestry projects. They try to legible, legibilize, you know, these forests, 202 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: these simple rules and organizations, and you cut out all 203 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: the fluff, all the shrubbery, all the other plans that 204 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: are competing coote and coote, you end up with a 205 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: dead system, you know, to put the system that is 206 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: very fragile, that is not able to respond to changes 207 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: in the environments they arise because it does not have 208 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: the buffers of a complex web of life in place. 209 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: Indigenous groups and really anybody who is grounded in the 210 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: local context is able to most effectively engage and respond 211 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: because they have access to that information, because they're able 212 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: to see the shocks to the system, the buffers, what works, 213 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: what doesn't. Human culturists are able to you know, these 214 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: intensive systems because they are constantly monitoring coming full circle here, 215 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: constantly monitoring the feedback that they're getting from their systems, 216 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: And of course there's a fifth principle. You know, in 217 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: these sort of situations, you're still going to have a 218 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: couple opportunistic people maybe attempt who may be tempted to 219 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: take advantage of the trust presence in the group. Um. 220 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: And when I say opportunistic people, I don't mean to 221 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: create this other this group. I just mean it's in 222 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: the sense of, you know, you have, like we all do, 223 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: moments of weakness, right, and in those moments of weakness, 224 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: it can be easy for some to falter, and in 225 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: that falter and jeopardize the security of the system as 226 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: a whole. And so the fifth prince will successful. Common 227 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: spanagement is the practice of accountability and systems of accountability 228 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: through graduated sanctions. Of course, empathy needs to maintain throughout 229 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: the process. And I don't think that every infraction must 230 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: automatically responded to with sanctions. Like again, I'm not trying 231 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: to do something. It's just obviously when you have a 232 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: system that has and I know I'm reference to ninety 233 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: for like a right fringer, but yeah, I think it's 234 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: finely reference if correctly, as opposed to like someone who 235 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: hasn't read it or read anything else that he wrote, Yeah, 236 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: we can take it. But you know, obviously not every 237 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: situation gonna respond to its sanctions, obviously empathytion, immunity and 238 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: throughout the process. Um. But when you have a system 239 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: in which a lot of people are dependent on the 240 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: sustainability not just people living right now, but generations to come, 241 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: and that's not something we accustomed to thinking about, but 242 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: generations still coming out and think about. With these sort 243 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: of commons institutions, you can't do as the capitalists do 244 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: and just let people do whatever with minimal if any 245 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: environmental protections, with minimal if any like standards in place. Yes, 246 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: infractions varying severity and stuff, but when the livelihood of 247 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: the entire community is that state, you know, things can't 248 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: be so easy. When infractions are just you know, temporary 249 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: deviations or and threatening to the overall survile the CPR, 250 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: then you know, tolerance can be high. But it depends 251 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: on the circumstance. And that's why it really is important 252 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: that the prior four principles or in place. You know, 253 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: you have the clearly defined boundaries, you have the rules 254 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: of the commons established by collective decision making power over 255 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: the commons, with a constant process of monitor in place, 256 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: because again, the responsiveness of the people on the ground 257 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: is a lot more in tune with the conditions of 258 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: the commons and with the needs of the people themselves, 259 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: because they are the people. And the fifth principle and 260 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: the fourth principle, all the other principles would be nothing 261 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: without the sixth principle, which is the presence of conflict 262 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: resolution mechanism. Humans are kind of human, you know, we 263 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: make mistakes, we have disagreements, and it needs to be 264 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: some sort of means of discussing and resolving conflict and 265 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: a healthy and effectively. There are a a lot of processes 266 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: in place. UM. A lot of communities, Galterian communities throughout 267 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: history have used some sort of system of mediation. UM. 268 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: There's also arbitration, which tends to be more common in 269 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: state societies. And they are also new models and methods 270 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: of justice being established and drawn from from the past 271 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: as well that we can look into. But they are 272 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: conflict resolution mechanisms. They have to be in place the 273 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: successful comments management. We live in a society, and society 274 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: includes conflict. Conflict is not always necessarily a bad thing, 275 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: but it's a thing, and you ignore it and expected 276 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: to go away. The seventh principle is the freedom to organize, 277 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: and this principle is, you know, the basis upon which 278 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: the other principles arrest. In some places people have a 279 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: lot of autonomy to self organize free of state control. 280 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: In other places they don't. In other places, there's a 281 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: lot of states encroachments on the commons because that has 282 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: been the mission of the state to further their ten 283 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: drils in every sphere of life and existence. So obviously 284 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: the end goal, but one of the end goals the 285 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: complete abolition of the state, and obviously the process upon 286 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: which we reach those end goals would require pre figurative 287 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: politics in the sense of establishing the institutions that we 288 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: want in the future society in the here and now 289 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: and building that dual poll capacity to provide a competitive 290 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: excuse the capitalists terminology, but a competitive model that can 291 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: you know, compete with rise from and separately from eventually 292 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: replace um the existing systems and that state process of 293 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: social revolution. Have a video coming up on that in December. Lastly, 294 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: and this does not apply to every instance of commons management, 295 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: but in some cases you need the eighth and finale 296 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: principle for successful commons management, and that is nested enterprises, 297 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: which is, you know, basically the same principle as an 298 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: anarchist confederation. You know, if a particular community is access 299 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: in a commons institution that other communities are access in, 300 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: or if the commons that a group of communities are 301 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: accessing are part of a larger regional commons or archpeologic 302 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: commons or continental commons, then he wants to have means 303 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: of collaboration bottom up of course, partom of organizations, but 304 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: you know, maintain the power the local level while coordinates 305 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: in these larger scaled commands and ensuring that there's a 306 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: smooth running and smooth communication between the appropriators, you know, 307 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: the people involved. These principles very clearly differentiate between success 308 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: and the failure cases. To reiterate, the commons and the 309 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: principle of successful commons management as follows. Clearly defined boundaries, 310 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: rules compatible with local conditions, collective decision making power to 311 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: establish those rules, monitoring to ensure that those rules are 312 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 1: compatible with people and conditions. Graduated sanctions to ensure that 313 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: rules are kept up with and the commons are protected 314 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: from potential threats. Conflict resolution, mechanisms because humans are going 315 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: to human freedom to eyes, particularly in the fragile early 316 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: stages of establishing these projects and nested enterprises confederation from 317 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: the bottom up. In certain failure cases, we see that, 318 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, none of the principles apply. Um. For example, 319 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: in the book, eleanor Austrom references these two Turkish fisheries, 320 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: the Bay of His Mirror and Boardroom, where there was 321 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: severe rent diticipation continuing unabated. Of course, the book was 322 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: written a while ago, so I'm not sure how the 323 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: situation has evolved since then. But rent dissipation is basically 324 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,239 Speaker 1: a circumstance in which the commons corn pool resources are 325 00:23:53,280 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: being depleted severely and the sustainability of those comments at take. 326 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: And so with all those principles in place to ensure 327 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't happened, um, you get a situation like what's 328 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: going on? But what was going on in the Bay 329 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: of his Mirror? And put in the Kirin the oil 330 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: irrigation project in Sri Lanka, they did have clay boundaries, 331 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: that one principle in place, but the other principles were not. 332 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: In Mojave, California, they did have the institution of collective choice. 333 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: They did have contact resolution mechanisms, and they did have 334 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: the recognized right to organize, but the other principles are 335 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: not in place, and so that institution was also a failure. 336 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: Or we can look at the case in the Mabella 337 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: fishery also in Sri Lanka, where renticipation had become a 338 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: very severe problem, particularly after nine Now they did have 339 00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: rules in place, they did have a monitoring system, but unfortunately, 340 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: you know, despite having those rules, despite having you know, 341 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: regulating regulating the access to the beach and the use 342 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: of the beach scenes and the control of the number 343 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: of nets to be used. I mean, they really did try. 344 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't a problem of ignorance the issuers that although 345 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: they were aware of the consequences of adding too many 346 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: nets and drawing too much from the fishery. The issue 347 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: became that the appropriators, the fishermen themselves, they don't have 348 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: the autonomy to make an enforce the rules of the fishery. 349 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: That was deprived of them, and so the institution was 350 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: not able to sustain itself in the long term. So 351 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: in all these cases, you know, no more of the 352 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: three design principles actually characterized any of these cases, and 353 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: so they were unable to solve the problems that they faced. 354 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: There of course, all sort issues where they are viable 355 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: but fragile common systems where you know, they have more 356 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: of the principles in place, but they still lack all 357 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: of them. So also in Sri Lanka there's a gal 358 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: oil where boundaries and membership were clearly designated, where rules 359 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: have been devised and monitored, where collective choice arenas have 360 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: been set up, but they you know, did not have 361 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: the autonomy and they do not have collect conflict resolution 362 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: mechanisms in place, and so the institution is not as 363 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: robust as it could be. Of course, when it comes 364 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: to the Commons and existing institutions, existing fragile institutions exist 365 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: in successful institutions, existing failures of institutions. That does not 366 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: necessarily need to limit all imagination of possibilities, but it's 367 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: good to be informed as to what has worked in 368 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: the past and what hasn't. We can still imagine future scenarios, 369 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: next peraments and how they might play out. But the 370 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: point is, if we're trying to reinstate the Commons, we 371 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: need to understand what makes them work, at least what 372 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: has made them work in the past and in the present. 373 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: More information of the Commons and also the potential of 374 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: library economy. You can check out my videos on the 375 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: Commons and the library economy on my channel YouTube dot 376 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: com slash Aurism. You can also check out Eleanor Ostrom's 377 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: book Governing the Commons, as well as a book called 378 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: Eleanor Astrom's Rules for Radicals, which I haven't read yet, 379 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: but I felt it was pretty good. If you like 380 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: what I do, you'd like to support me, you could 381 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: follow me on pitture dot com slash same true and 382 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: on Twitter dot com slash underscore, same true. That's what 383 00:27:50,200 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: I happened today. It could happen here. Peace, Yeah, welcome 384 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: to make it happen here. A podcast about things falling 385 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 1: apart and then maybe kind of putting them back together 386 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: again sort of. This this This is This is a 387 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: special episode about the thing that happened where a thing 388 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: that happened is the Brazilian election. And with me to 389 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: talk about this is Garrison Hello and James Hello. So 390 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: I think I think people probably know by now Louis 391 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: Nacio Lula is Silva, better known as Lula, has defeated JR. 392 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: Bosonaro in a absolutely terrifying squeaker of a presidential election. Um. 393 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: This is like, by far the closest election that Lula 394 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: there is, a former two term president of Brazil, has 395 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: ever won. Um. Part of this is a camp pain 396 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: of last minute voter suppression that Bolsonaro own his supporters did, 397 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: where like like basically like the Brazilian federal police started 398 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: setting up like they set up fifty roadblocks to stop 399 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: people in the low strongholds from voting. There's like the 400 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: assaulted people. Um, it wound up not mattering and right now, 401 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: as as a time of recording, which is uh one pm, 402 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: one third pm Pacific on Halloween, Bolsonaro was missing in action. 403 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: There's no like, no one's seen him. The only the 404 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: only thing, the only sign of life that there has 405 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: been from him is he unfollowed his wife. Amazing stuff. 406 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: It's it sounds like he just locked himself in the 407 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: presidential palace and turn and turn all all of the 408 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: lights off. Yeah, he's he's missing and no nobody's seen 409 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: or heard from him. Um. So by the time this 410 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: episode comes out, there's like a small chance there's been 411 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 1: a coup. There's like small chance he's died from COVID. 412 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, probably neither of those have happened. But 413 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, so Lula won his election like he won 414 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: like like fifty point eight percent of the vote roughly. 415 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: And okay, so there's a lot of voter suppression, but 416 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: even voters suppression cannot explain why Lula, who won his 417 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: last elections with respectively sixty one and sixty percent of 418 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: the vote, was reduced to like fifty point eight percent 419 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: this time. And okay, so that this begs two questions. 420 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: Who is Luis Snasia Lula da Silva and how did 421 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: we get to this election? So the first episode of 422 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: this is going to be answering the first question, and 423 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: the second episode is largely the second question. Okay, so 424 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: who who actually is Lula? Lula is born in actually 425 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: his birthday is a few days ago um to a 426 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: desperately poor family in Brazil's northeast um and this family 427 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: moves from the northeast to what became known as the 428 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: ABC region of Brazil, which is Santa Andre San Bernard 429 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: sent sorry Santo Andre sal Bernard who who can't say 430 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: names of Brazil? Now? This is this is not a 431 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: famous name, this is sal Bernado. Wait, are you conflating 432 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: Brazil and Argentina, which are famously not the same country. 433 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: Different languages is the thing. If this wasn't Spanish, I 434 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: could do this and I'm gonna make it. I can 435 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: make this claim here. All my pronunciations to this are 436 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: based on my terrible knowledge of Spanish. The problem is 437 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: Brazil famously speaks Portuguese, a language that is not Spanish. 438 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, but okay, so there there's there's things of 439 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 1: the ABC region because there's three cities there that are 440 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: abc UM as part of this sort of mass migration, 441 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: which is is popularly remembered as like this mass migration 442 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: of people from the northeast to sub Hollow, But the 443 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: sort of thing actually that that that's the memory of 444 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: the actualities that millions of people flow into sub ho Hollow, 445 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: like from all across Brazil Um. The ABC region becomes 446 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: the Brazil sort of industrial heartland. Like every story you 447 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: read about this, we'll call it like Brazil's Detroit, And 448 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,239 Speaker 1: that's kind of true and kind of not true. Like 449 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, every everyone who writes about Brazil is like, 450 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: how can we make this the US? And like god, 451 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: fibida out of countries have their own realities. Yeah, and like, okay, 452 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: like there is an extent to which Brazil is also 453 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: like the ex slave colony thing, right, but no, like Brazil, 454 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: Bazil is its own country. Um. However, come up, the 455 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: ABC region becomes the core of Brazil's massive metalworking industry. Um. 456 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: In this industry is just like from the fifties of 457 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: the eighties, just like purely expanding. Um. The historian J. D. 458 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: French knows that the ABC is poppy relation increased by 459 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: eight percent from the So Lula arrives in the middle 460 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: of a veritable industrial revolution. Um, this is going to 461 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: end in one of history sort of great built industrial 462 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: working classes. But he's there. That's kind of not what's happening. 463 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: Or The other thing, as you mentioned bout this region 464 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: is that when I say metal working, So there's the 465 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: reason there's so many Detroit comparisons, is that this is 466 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: this is a reason that is massively involved in Brazil's 467 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: auto industry, which in this period is expanding it. This 468 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: is very large. Um. I think I think I've actually 469 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: talked about this in the Neo Liberalism episodes. Um a 470 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: little bit. But yeah, so Lula like leaves school in 471 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: fifth grade to basically find whatever work he can in 472 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: the street. And this is another sort of very famous 473 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: thing that everyone talks about about Lula Abalkio, Like he 474 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: has like a grade school education, and that's like sort 475 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 1: of true, Like it is true that he never like 476 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: like graduate, like you know, he never went to school 477 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: past like fifth grade. Mostly. I thought we'll get to 478 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: some other stuff that he did later. Um, what happens 479 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: basically is that his his mom is able to get 480 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: him into this this metal this this government metal working 481 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: sort of apprenticeship program that is teaching like young people 482 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: how to do how to basically become skilled metal workers. 483 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: And this also is an education, right, like you know, 484 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: the people people in this there's there's a lot of 485 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: very interesting sort of like theory stuff about this about 486 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: how these people like are are also kind of worker intellectuals. 487 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: Because in order to like be a metal worker and 488 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: to do all this stuff, you have to know a 489 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: ship ton of stuff. You have to know. You have 490 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: to know a bunch of tactical stuff about how metal works. 491 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: You have to know that you know, it's it's very 492 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: highly skilled, very high like degree of knowledge you have 493 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: to have. So you know, he he gets this kind 494 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: of education. Um, and he becomes a very very good 495 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: metal worker, and he's he's part of a a like 496 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: a highly skilled and the academic literature will call it 497 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 1: highly paid. Although like, okay, this is highly paid compared 498 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: to like someone like someone who is a worker, but 499 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: who's not like a metal work like one of the 500 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: sort of skilled quote unquote metal workers. Um, they're not 501 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: like these people aren't like lawyers right, like they're they're 502 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: they're so closer to the actual sort of working class 503 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: than you know, so somelm like people who are sort 504 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: of like auxiliary parts of the ruling class. And he enters, 505 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, he enders the sort of manufacturing boom as 506 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: part of what's called the Brazilian miracle. Well, okay, so 507 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: he he's there a bit before the sort of Brazilian 508 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: miracle starts. But there's this period of the militaryed katership 509 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: for sakes power where they kind of like luck into 510 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: a functioning economy. Although I should I should mention this now, Um, okay, 511 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 1: So in this period in Brazil, like inflation being good 512 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: and under control is inflation is like when inflations everything 513 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: is considered fine and when it goes up from it's like, 514 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: oh no, we've lost control of inflation and this this 515 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: kind of like this is a survivable thing because people's 516 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: wages are short of indexed to um like that their 517 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: index to cost of living increases to some extent, which 518 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: is the thing that like, yeah, it would never happen here. Yeah, well, 519 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess if if you do the kind 520 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: of stuff these guys do, you can probably get some 521 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: of this. But yeah, so, but the sort of interesting 522 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: thing about what's happening here is you have a very 523 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: large industrial working class, but it's not really very militant 524 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: for most of the time. Lula's in it, except for 525 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: sort of right around the military, like Cui, Lulas sees 526 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: some of kind of like the old radicalism, like he 527 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: he talks about like you know, like watching people like 528 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,919 Speaker 1: storming factories because they're on strike. Uh, the Brazilian working 529 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: class does. There's a lot of fun stuff that they do. 530 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: Like they do things like okay so that everyone will 531 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 1: show up to a protest with like a bunch of 532 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: like pockets full of barbles, and when when a calvar 533 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: recharge starts to just roll the all rolling barbles down 534 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: the street and the person fall. It's an o G 535 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: Battle of Cable Street. Yeah, yeah, my absolute favorite one. 536 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: This is just like like pure looty tune ship. Um, 537 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: they do this thing where Okay, so they'll string piano 538 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: wire up like between light posts and then they'll bait 539 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: calvalry units the charging at them and then they run 540 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: the thing and the guys will just get sucking close lock. 541 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: That's so good. Yeah, that's pretty great. Horse cups You 542 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: didn't in America but not no, no, no, no, well 543 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: they you see them sometimes, Like I have seen some 544 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: horse cops. Portland's horse cops only like stop existing a 545 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. In the UK of until 546 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: very recently they used them to police protest. Yeah. Yeah, 547 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: there was fowenty of people getting run over by horses 548 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: in the States. Yeah yeah, they still do this. Yeah, 549 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: fucking sucks there. Actually, Okay, I think the most famous 550 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: police horse relatest story in the US is a Philly 551 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: sports fan. I think it punching a police horse. What 552 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: a city. Yeah. The most famous British police horse thing 553 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: is that the horse humping the cop. Critical support to 554 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: the Yeah, it's quickly copy the image into the chat 555 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: so you can want to enjoy it. I'm okay, I'm 556 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: glad that we've taken this episode in this direction. Oh my, 557 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 1: holy sh it. That Oh my god, Okay, I thought 558 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 1: it was graphic. Do you know what else will take 559 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: a cop and bend it over and nope, alright, well 560 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: promise that, Garrison. Here's some advertisements, and we're back with 561 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: other things that won't scar my soul forever. Oh boy. 562 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: Up until sort of five there there had been a 563 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: kind of left wing government in Brazil and then the 564 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: military q like just overthrows it. And the left is 565 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: kind of just like annihilated from this. And it's not 566 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: just from the pure political repression which forces like like 567 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: all the communist parties are forced underground like um. But 568 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things, like one of 569 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: the real things that sort of like really shatters the 570 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: Brazilian left is that, like the coup happens and the left, 571 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, the left sort of noses the cue coming, right, 572 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: but they expect that when the coup happens, there's going 573 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: to be strikes and like the working class is gonna 574 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: fight them and they're gonna beat it, and everyone kind 575 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: of just like in the factories kind of just shrugs, 576 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 1: and nothing happens and they just get rolled over. And 577 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: this is the start of this period of sort of 578 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: like you know, this kind of like the workers movement, 579 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: like nothing is happening in there's some sort of radical 580 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: student groups trying to do stuff, but like I know 581 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: there's a Brazilian version of sixty eight, but mostly what 582 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: happens there was like one factory gets occupied and then 583 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: the army shows up with guns and they get owned 584 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: and it's really grim, and you know you have these 585 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: sort of like like tiny like actually, okay, you're these 586 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: tiny Catholic Maoist groups who these Maoist student groups. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, 587 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: we just straight through that. It's it's not um normal, 588 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: totally normal. Yeah yeah. And then you know they're trying 589 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: who tried to do like drill in certainty stuff, and 590 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: the army just sort of like kills them all. Um, 591 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: they're horribly destroyed. So for for almost a decade and 592 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: a half, like you have a very deep politicized industrial politaria, 593 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: and and Lula's part of this right like from from 594 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: from like when he enters the workforce until like the 595 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: late seventies, he is not political at all. Are they 596 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: doing the thing under the dictatorship where they have like 597 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: pet unions. I guess when it's like one mandated union 598 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: for the industry. I was about to talk about this. Um. Yeah, 599 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: so the Brazilian libor system. And the thing is, so 600 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: this wasn't set up under this military sectatorship. It was 601 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of set up under like a previous one. But this, yeah, 602 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: it's still sort of a thing. All of the unions 603 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: have to register with the state, and when they're doing 604 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: contract negotiations, right, they're not negotiating with the corporations, negotiating 605 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: with the state, and so this means that like the 606 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: state is setting wage rage. It's gonna become important later. 607 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's a really interesting sort of problem here 608 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: because there's this entire class of basically sort of like 609 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: government union guy who's like basically a bureaucrat and it's 610 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: like really corrupt and yeah, well and and this is 611 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: something like and like like a lot of people just 612 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: hate them because like that, like you know, because because 613 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: they are like literally what these people are are like 614 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: they're a guy who's doing this job to get ahead, 615 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: and then their job is to sort of like like 616 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, technically it's like mediate the class struggle, right, 617 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 1: but like what that actually means is like make sure 618 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: that like there isn't actually sort of like like make 619 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: sure the union isn't actually sort of a source of 620 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: class conflict. And you know this, this is this is 621 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: the whole sort of thing behind this because for like 622 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: still had this really really built and like labor movement, 623 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: they had a bunch of anarchists, like the archics tractor 624 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: over the government a couple of times, maybe these huge 625 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: general strikes, there's the communist parties like a real thing, 626 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: and then the government tries to bring all of like 627 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,879 Speaker 1: you know, okay, we're gonna bring all the unions under 628 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: our control. And it's still also true that these are 629 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: like they're still technically unions, so there are people who 630 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: are sort of doing union organizing in them, right, like 631 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: they still do some regular union stuff. And yeah, we're 632 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,840 Speaker 1: gonna talk about this a bit more later, but there's 633 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,919 Speaker 1: I don't know, these unions are fucking weird, Like they're 634 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: not like unions anywhere else have've ever seen. Yeah, But 635 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: so okay, So the other thing, like lu Lula in 636 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: this point, like it's a political right people people keep 637 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: trying to talk to Hi about politics, and he's like, 638 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 1: I just want to play soccer and light chase girls. 639 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: And he talks about this like changing like it speeches 640 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: a lot. But his brother, who's known as Frey Chico, 641 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: is a Brazilian Communist Party miility for like his entire 642 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: life and being being a PCB militant in like the 643 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: cities and seventies, this is like life threatening. Uh, the 644 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: party is outlawed. Everyone is so clandestine that like fried 645 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: Chico's own wife doesn't know that he's a communist and 646 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: finds out that he's a communist when he gets arrested, 647 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: like it's it's this, this is this, this is like 648 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: this is like the level of like clandestine shit that 649 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: everyone that that that like you know, the sort of 650 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: communist parties are working on under here um. But fres 651 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: Chico is also like an open union activists and everyone 652 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: knows he's like he's a leftist basically because you know, 653 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,879 Speaker 1: the even even sort of like the unions are sort 654 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: of like split between like there's sort of left factions 655 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: that are like trying to actually do union stuff, but 656 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,399 Speaker 1: like for towards sort of leftist goals, there are like 657 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: more moderate people who are like bread and butter trade unionists. 658 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: And then there's also just like a bunch of people 659 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:47,879 Speaker 1: who are like just the corruption faction. UM. But yeah, 660 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: like Lula doesn't like Lula like doesn't care about the 661 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: union at all. Like he's not even in the union 662 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,720 Speaker 1: until Free Chico, like his brother just like like literally 663 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: just like drags him, kicking and screaming into running for 664 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: an elected position in the union because I like he 665 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 1: needed a guy to run on a slate, but he 666 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: couldn't run himself because everyone knew he was a leftist. 667 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: So he was like, Okay, I'm gonna your brother, you run. 668 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: You're you're you're not like openly a leftist. You can 669 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: actually win this, and this is you know, and then 670 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,439 Speaker 1: this works and he gets elected. And this is where 671 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: Lula like learns politics um from the book Lula and 672 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,919 Speaker 1: his Politics of Cunning quote. Lula would have to master 673 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: the mundane aspects of union life, including bureaucratic routines, budgets, services, 674 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: and preparing union assemblies. Lula would also undergo a gradual 675 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: politicization through relationships with fellow directors, union lawyers and staff, 676 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,320 Speaker 1: and activists central to the union's turbulent internal politics. Finally, 677 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: Lula would need to learn about the repressive dimension of 678 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: working class life under military rule, including close supervision and 679 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: surveillance by police, employers and labor ministry officials. And what's 680 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: interesting about this story is, like everyone around him when 681 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: he joins his union, including basically his boss and the union, 682 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: is a guy named Vidal who's a very powerful union leader. Um, 683 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: like you know, his brother to Like everyone thinks he's 684 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 1: going to be this sort of like compliance like obedient fingerhead. 685 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 1: And instead what they have done is they have created 686 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: arguably the greatest politician of the twenty first century. Um, 687 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: what are the things that's important to note here is 688 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: that like, okay, so, like the unions are are like 689 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: fucked up, right, and everyone kind of says they're sucked up, 690 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: these are still probably the most like like these are 691 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: probably still the most competitive democratic collections that are happening 692 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: in Brazil. Like Brazil technically has elections that there's these 693 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: sort of like two official parties. So okay, so it's 694 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,840 Speaker 1: kind of weird that the military like is in power, 695 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,919 Speaker 1: but like they have the sort of veneer that they're 696 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,800 Speaker 1: not and theydentically they technically sometimes have a civilian president. 697 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,439 Speaker 1: They have these sort of like parties that are kind 698 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: of real, but you know, the the union actually has 699 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: like there are like leftist slates, there are conservative slaves. 700 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: Like there there's actually sort of politics going on. And 701 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: Lula is actually able to sort of like make his 702 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: mark through through his abilities just like make friends with 703 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 1: people on both the sort of like radical and moderate 704 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: side of the union um union sort of political aisle. 705 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: And this is because Lula, like Lula is just it's funny, 706 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: he loves playing soccer, he loves just like dancing and 707 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: hanging out. And this lets him like win his election 708 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: slate like pretty easily because you know, she's she's just 709 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: she's just very popular. So these are things that like, 710 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, like the other workers in the factory 711 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: a lot of times don't care that much about union politics, 712 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: but they do care about like that you care about 713 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,399 Speaker 1: soccer a lot. And so Lula was able to build 714 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of support and this lets him sort of 715 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: easily take a position in a union system that, like 716 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: I it's basically a miniature state. Like the unions have 717 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: their own welfare programs, they have they have their own 718 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: education system, and you know, this is part of the 719 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: thing that people talking about Lula is completely uneducated. Like, no, 720 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:47,879 Speaker 1: it's not like he he spends a bunch of time 721 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: like in classes that like the the the union like 722 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: puts on basically like university and academic classes right, for 723 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: for its workers and for other people sort of affiliated 724 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: with him. So he spends a bunch and this is like, 725 00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, part of where he'd learned sort of politics 726 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: and where he large political economy is like is through 727 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,240 Speaker 1: the through these classes the union has and he sorry. 728 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: The union also like you know I talked about, like 729 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: they run welfare programs, right, So he's like he's like 730 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,440 Speaker 1: a social worker, right, trying trying to sort of like 731 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: help workers and pensioners with his job. He gets this 732 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 1: position that like everyone hates, like he has his position 733 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: basically like running running there sort of like like welfare 734 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: program and like nobody wants it, but he like does 735 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,879 Speaker 1: it and he doesn't really well. And this makes him 736 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: really popular because he's the guy that, like, you know, 737 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: if you're like a pensioner, right, like he's the guy 738 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: you go to to figure out pension bullshit, and he's 739 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: the guy you just go to in order to sort 740 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: of get stuff done. And yeah, you know this means 741 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: he's spending a bunch of time doing paperwork and like 742 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: negotiating with government bureaucracy, and he this makes him a 743 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: very very effective politician. Um, he's from Lula's politics to 744 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,799 Speaker 1: cutting again. But Lula also gained access to an even 745 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: larger constituency at the union headquarters, a working class public sphere. 746 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: Do you know how many people passed by the union daily, 747 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: he asked a journalist in ninety nine, at minimum fift hundred. 748 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,280 Speaker 1: Those frequenting the union did so for many reasons, often 749 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,239 Speaker 1: for various sorts of assistance or sistencia, which I think 750 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: is yeah, like government union assistant stuff, but also to 751 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: complain about work, shoot the breeze, or catch up with friends. 752 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: Some union directors often arrived late to the headquarters and 753 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,320 Speaker 1: we're always busy when they did the Gregarius Lula, by contrast, 754 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: maintained an open door policy, and his office became a 755 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: gathering point form break and file workers, factory activists, and 756 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: fellow directors still linked to production. And this is everything 757 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,800 Speaker 1: that's sort of important about this is that like, okay, 758 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,280 Speaker 1: like once you reach like a certain position in the union, 759 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: like you're just a full time a union guy. And 760 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of people who like join the 761 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: union and become like union people because it means like 762 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 1: it takes you off the shop floor. And there this 763 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: you know the government does is deliberately right, because it means, 764 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,279 Speaker 1: you know, you're creating they're they're they're they're the thing 765 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: that they're trying to do, create a certain of bureacratic 766 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 1: area between the working class and like their union. But 767 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 1: Lula's like still really connected to what's going on the 768 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 1: shaft floor because he's just like talking to everyone all 769 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: the time. And the product of this is that Lula 770 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,359 Speaker 1: is becomes a very very like he comes to trade union, 771 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: it becomes a very very powerful one. He who rapidly 772 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: becomes the president of his union after some like Vidal, 773 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,440 Speaker 1: who's like his boss had there's this whole thing where 774 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: he's trying to stay in power. But he doesn't run 775 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,280 Speaker 1: for president of the union because of some complicated political maneuvering, 776 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 1: and so Lula ends up as the head of the union. 777 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: Fadells like it's fine, I'm still going to be a 778 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,440 Speaker 1: control here, and that's not what happens you you you 779 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: have just you have just given the presidency to like 780 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,640 Speaker 1: like a a a genuinely truly singular like political figure. Um. 781 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,959 Speaker 1: But but there's there's something that's very very important about 782 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: Lula that you need to understand to figure to like 783 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,760 Speaker 1: to understand anything that's about to happen here. And basically, 784 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 1: Lula is not a communist. This this is this is 785 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: very important. Um. He could not have done what he's 786 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 1: about to do, which is, you know, become literally like 787 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,919 Speaker 1: the living symbol of one of the largest strike waves 788 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: in Brazilian history. He could not have done this if 789 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,800 Speaker 1: he was a communist. The military, if he was a communist, 790 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 1: military would have you know, tortured and possibly executed him 791 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: like they've done with thousands of other communists. His brother 792 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: Frey Chico, was kidnapped and tortured horribly by the military, 793 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 1: although he like he will insist that he didn't have 794 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: it as bad as like a lot of other people did, 795 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,839 Speaker 1: which is true, but also like they tortured the ship 796 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: out of him and it was fucking horrific. And the 797 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: fact that like every single person, like and the fact 798 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: that every single fucking member of the military dictatorship was 799 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,760 Speaker 1: not fucking like taken out behind a shocking shed shot 800 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 1: and had their like corpses fed to dogs. Is like 801 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,520 Speaker 1: genuinely one of the reasons why we're here right now. 802 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: The stuff is awful. It is a theme of the podcast. Yeah, yeah, 803 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 1: but what to do with dictated you know, and Lula 804 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: Lula and she's wife eventually able to sort of get 805 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: him released because he's not like a very high like 806 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: he's in the PCB, like he's in the Communist Party 807 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 1: like his brother like, but he's not like a high 808 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: ranking guy. And you know, the sort of cruel irony 809 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: of it is like they knew that he didn't know 810 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,800 Speaker 1: anything that they didn't already know, but they just tortured 811 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 1: to share to him. Anyways. Um, but one of the 812 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: important things that happens here is his brother like under torture, 813 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: like insists that Lula is not a communist and like 814 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: continues to insist this because he isn't and you know, 815 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 1: and like people who are like that and and people 816 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,279 Speaker 1: in the moltitary chairship like believe this right because like 817 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 1: the like they're you know, they have a really extensive 818 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: sort of intelligence network like at this point that they've 819 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,839 Speaker 1: basically like they've they've basically destroyed the Brazilian Communist Party, 820 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,440 Speaker 1: and they've like captured and killed most of her cadre. 821 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: And because he's not a communist, Lula is able to 822 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 1: stay in the labor movement even if in the short term, 823 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: after his brother gets the rest of he loses his 824 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,520 Speaker 1: job in the union because and he's able to do 825 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,919 Speaker 1: this because like beyond his brother, who like his brother 826 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 1: has literally been like saying communist stuff at him for 827 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: decades and he Lula has just been like, I don't 828 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: care um, and like a couple of other people who's 829 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,320 Speaker 1: just quite kind of friends with like Lula, like he 830 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: has no connection to the organized left, like he's he's 831 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: not sort of like like he he's not like a 832 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 1: leftist right like in in that sort of conventional sense 833 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,319 Speaker 1: like he's he's not tied to one of sort of 834 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,920 Speaker 1: the old left political factions. And this means that he 835 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 1: can stand in as a kind of sort of labor 836 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:30,360 Speaker 1: leader that the more moderate fashions the military dictatorship have 837 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,960 Speaker 1: been looking for, which is this sort of like non 838 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: communist like quote unquote genuine trade unionist and okay, so 839 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,320 Speaker 1: like talking about like a moderate faction of a military 840 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,399 Speaker 1: dictatorship is always kind of fraud because you know it's 841 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,080 Speaker 1: a military tatorship, but like, like all these people suck. 842 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,359 Speaker 1: It's also true that there were there were factions within 843 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: the military tatorship who so there's a fashion called like 844 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: the dungeon, which is like the people torturing all these 845 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: people to death. There were other people in the military 846 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: tatorship who are like this is really fucking ghost, Like, 847 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,680 Speaker 1: why are you guys doing this? Like this makes us 848 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: look bad? Also why are you torturing these people? And 849 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:10,320 Speaker 1: those guys look at Lula and they they're they're willing 850 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,879 Speaker 1: to work with him because like what what what they 851 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: think they're doing is creating this sort of like authentic 852 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: non communist labor movement that will like work with them 853 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 1: the stop communism like sort of like the a fl 854 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: CIA like specifically talk about this like in the in 855 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 1: the way that the a f l C i OH 856 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 1: does in the US work work working is in the 857 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: communist force. They they think that they can get Lula 858 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: to do this, and Lula does a lot of stuff 859 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,360 Speaker 1: that like looks like collaboration to the sort of like 860 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: surviving leftists around him. He develops like literally like personal 861 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,400 Speaker 1: relationships kind of friendship. It's not really friendships, but like 862 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,760 Speaker 1: the personal relationships and professional relationships members of the regime. 863 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: And you know, again it like it looks like he's collaborating, 864 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:49,280 Speaker 1: but that's not, that's not that's not what's actually happening. 865 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: What's actually happening is that he's holding these negotiations in 866 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: order to sort of increase the power of the union 867 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 1: and build this like safety network be like that. Because 868 00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,720 Speaker 1: he has these personal relationships with people in the regime, 869 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:01,759 Speaker 1: it is that he's not going to get disappeared and 870 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 1: his people are going to get disappeared. And this had 871 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 1: happened to a lot of even a lot of sort 872 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,359 Speaker 1: of other regular union activists who didn't have this kind 873 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: of connection just like get vanished. And the people are 874 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: able to build connections with like keep him from being 875 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: like vanished and keep his trade unis and being slaughtered. 876 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,160 Speaker 1: And you know, like the people in like in the 877 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,399 Speaker 1: military kidership like really think that like Okay, they've they've 878 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,400 Speaker 1: they've gained you know, like they they're they're getting an 879 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,479 Speaker 1: ally and defeating communism. Uh. The thing they are actually doing, uh, 880 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,800 Speaker 1: it's progressing their own grave Diggers UM and okay you 881 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: know before yes, you know who else is creating their 882 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:44,719 Speaker 1: own g Grave Diggers Garrison U. The advertising industrial complex. Yes, 883 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:51,640 Speaker 1: they have produced us Weakened dream unbelievable. Well in the meantime, 884 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,600 Speaker 1: So inside inside the New Batman game, you play as 885 00:54:54,640 --> 00:55:01,480 Speaker 1: the four sidekicks after Batman UM allegedly dies. And the 886 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:06,560 Speaker 1: weirdest thing is that they because three of the side 887 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,080 Speaker 1: Kicks don't usually have capes. They you know, they don't 888 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 1: do any kind of massive gliding feature for city traversal. Instead, 889 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: you have a really slow, bad cycle and then you 890 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,919 Speaker 1: have an almost spider Man like grappling hook and it's 891 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 1: it locks onto anything around you. It's really confusing. Are 892 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,319 Speaker 1: we back? Okay? And we're back? We should we should 893 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,160 Speaker 1: leave in like just like two minutes of Batman talking 894 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,919 Speaker 1: was completely bowed. So okay. There's the ever thing about 895 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,759 Speaker 1: Lula just as a person is that fundamentally he's a negotiator. 896 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,920 Speaker 1: Like his style was almost like Biden esque in the 897 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,960 Speaker 1: sense of like Biden sort of beliefs like talking to 898 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,160 Speaker 1: everyone across the political etcetera, etcetera. Except like, okay, the 899 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:56,359 Speaker 1: key difference here is that Lula is actually charismatic. Um hm, yeah, 900 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 1: but like you know he will just sit there like 901 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 1: with people across the aisle and like talk things out 902 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 1: and negotia with them. He'll talk with employers, will talk 903 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,880 Speaker 1: with members of the military dictatorship. But you know there 904 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:06,960 Speaker 1: were differences that like, Okay, so Biden is like is 905 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,879 Speaker 1: a concert politician, right, Like when he when he talks 906 00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 1: about like talking with people across the aisle, he means 907 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:16,120 Speaker 1: like strum Thurman. Right when Lula is talking with people, 908 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,799 Speaker 1: He's talking with everyone, like he like literally everyone who 909 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:20,640 Speaker 1: runs in the class. He's talking with random people at 910 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,400 Speaker 1: like union halls and meetings, at picket lines, at like 911 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: soccer games, at bars. And because he spends all of 912 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,080 Speaker 1: this time talking people constantly, he gains this just like 913 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: incredible ability to read crowds and like Taylor message messages 914 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,280 Speaker 1: for them and like figure out what sort of like 915 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 1: like what what sort of things will work with whatever 916 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,560 Speaker 1: person is saying. And he gains this like absolutely incredible 917 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,160 Speaker 1: ability to sort of charm people, and it works with people, 918 00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:47,759 Speaker 1: even on people who fucking hate him. Like there are 919 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: there are like journalists who will spend literally their entire 920 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,200 Speaker 1: careers trying to destroy him and who. But when they 921 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:54,880 Speaker 1: asked about him, they're like, well, I mean like him 922 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: with a person and he's really charming, like he's a 923 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,560 Speaker 1: nice guy. And but you know, so part part of 924 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: what he's doing in this period this this is this 925 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,160 Speaker 1: is this is the late seventies um going into the earliest. 926 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: He's playing this like this very specific like game of 927 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:15,160 Speaker 1: respectability politics of like not directly criticizing the government and 928 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,760 Speaker 1: like so that there are these like there are these 929 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,480 Speaker 1: strikes that start happening because okay, so it turns out 930 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,920 Speaker 1: that the military government has been trying to get inflation, 931 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,600 Speaker 1: like the whole sort of economic system they've been doing 932 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,240 Speaker 1: starts to fall apart, and inflation starts to come back, 933 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,360 Speaker 1: and they start doing these like measures of combat inflation. 934 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: And the unions so originally no one believed them, but 935 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,200 Speaker 1: the Union has like has like like they have like 936 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 1: a think tank kind of right, They have like a 937 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,360 Speaker 1: social sort of like center with a bunch of sort 938 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,560 Speaker 1: of like sociologists and economists, and they figure out that 939 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,440 Speaker 1: the Union has been lying and that's why that the 940 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,040 Speaker 1: government has been lying about inflation, like how bad inflation is. 941 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 1: And then the I M. F in the late seventies 942 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,040 Speaker 1: confirms is that that that the military tatnership has been 943 00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,520 Speaker 1: lying about how bad is inflation is by doing subsistical stuff. 944 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,880 Speaker 1: And this matters because they've been setting costs of living 945 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,640 Speaker 1: adjustments by a lower level of inflation. That that that 946 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: that was actually happening. And this pisses everyone the funk 947 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,440 Speaker 1: off because they're like, literally the government is robbing us, 948 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: like they've been lying behad bad inflation is like like 949 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 1: third and it's it's this is like this is like 950 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,200 Speaker 1: a thirty percent income drop right for these workers. And 951 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,439 Speaker 1: this pisses everyone the funk off. And suddenly there's these 952 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:24,480 Speaker 1: massive like protests. There were like hundreds of thousands of people, 953 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,040 Speaker 1: like a hundred thousand people wi show up to a 954 00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:31,320 Speaker 1: soccer stadium as part of a strike. Like but you know, 955 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,080 Speaker 1: Lula has to make sure that everyone doesn't get murdered, 956 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,480 Speaker 1: and so he does these things like he'll like he'll 957 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,680 Speaker 1: avoids directly criticizing the government. He has this whole thing 958 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,920 Speaker 1: about how like he wants togotiate directly with the employers. 959 00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,440 Speaker 1: He like kicks out like left to student groups. You 960 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: are like trying to like distribute like communist students, you're 961 00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,120 Speaker 1: like trying to distribute pampas at the rallies because he's 962 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,200 Speaker 1: trying to make sure that the strikers aren't seen as 963 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,240 Speaker 1: like communist subversives and instead is sort of like they're 964 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,760 Speaker 1: seen as like good, upstanding, hard working citizens. And yeah, 965 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,680 Speaker 1: here's here's from the book of Given the diverse outlooks. 966 00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 1: Lula represented himself as a thoughtful, righteous man who disparaged 967 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:10,000 Speaker 1: riotous behavior as unworthy and counterproductive like all honest workers. 968 00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: He called for the strikers to be disciplined and counseled 969 00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,280 Speaker 1: against classes with the police. He continually frames their fight 970 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: as one with the companies, not the government or the policeman. 971 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,160 Speaker 1: And this like works because any more radical action probably 972 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,960 Speaker 1: is going to get everyone killed. And I mean like 973 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: that when it's actually going on, there's like like they're 974 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: they're getting buzzed by helicopters. There's like fucking army trucks everywhere. Um, 975 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: but you know, he manages not to get everyone killed. 976 00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,880 Speaker 1: And the result of this is that Lula immediately becomes 977 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: the most famous worker in Brazil. He's like on TV, 978 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:46,040 Speaker 1: he's leading strikes everywhere, Like there's these massive rallies, and 979 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's some really like there's some really like 980 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,080 Speaker 1: genuinely adorable stuff that's happening, where like when he's giving 981 00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:52,880 Speaker 1: his first speech to one of these rallies, it's like 982 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,040 Speaker 1: it's fucking raining. The soccer stadium is just mud, Like 983 00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: his podium is literally sinking into the bodies. He's trying 984 00:59:58,320 --> 00:59:59,800 Speaker 1: to speak, and this is like the first time he's 985 00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,320 Speaker 1: that are the crowd this loud? And he's nervous and 986 01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,840 Speaker 1: people start leaving and they're doing this. One of every 987 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,040 Speaker 1: things I learned about this is how old, how old 988 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,560 Speaker 1: the crowd mike is. So they're doing this thing that 989 01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,120 Speaker 1: becomes own as the crowd mike, where like you don't 990 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:12,960 Speaker 1: have a microphone or you can't reach every one, so 991 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,440 Speaker 1: each so okay, So some of the speaker says like 992 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,320 Speaker 1: a sentence and then each person in the crowd says 993 01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:19,880 Speaker 1: a sentence and it just sort of moves back through 994 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,200 Speaker 1: the crowd up from everyone repeating it. And she's trying 995 01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:24,920 Speaker 1: to give the speech is not going great, and like 996 01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,840 Speaker 1: the workers in the front row start like yelling like, hey, 997 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,120 Speaker 1: you can do this, Lula, don't worry, you got this, 998 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:33,680 Speaker 1: And then he like and then and then this is 999 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:37,040 Speaker 1: like absolutely adorable moment and then he sort of like 1000 01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,840 Speaker 1: like you know, gets better at it, and like by 1001 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,320 Speaker 1: like the second one of these like people are just 1002 01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,280 Speaker 1: like in love with him. He is unbelievably popular, refusing 1003 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 1: an incredible speaker. He's like you know, and it's very easy. 1004 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,880 Speaker 1: And you see writing about this at the time that 1005 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: are like that look at him and are like, well, 1006 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: this guy like this guy is literally like people people 1007 01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:59,400 Speaker 1: are like calling him literally the messiah of the working 1008 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,080 Speaker 1: class right, Like this is the kind of sort of 1009 01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,400 Speaker 1: like like a claim that he has. Like there are 1010 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,240 Speaker 1: they're after one of his speeches, like the entire crowd 1011 01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,680 Speaker 1: literally carries him on their shoulders from one end of 1012 01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 1: the soccer stadium to the other, Like there are like 1013 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,080 Speaker 1: like there there there are people like walking on stage 1014 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,720 Speaker 1: and calling him like father and saying him Mary's like 1015 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 1: it's it's fucking wild um, but you know, but like 1016 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,320 Speaker 1: and it's and like when when when when like sort 1017 01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,480 Speaker 1: of rich and educated people look at this, They're like, oh, 1018 01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,400 Speaker 1: these people are like blindly obedient to him. They're like 1019 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,680 Speaker 1: they have this client patient relationship. He's like manipulating the 1020 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: masses and that's not what's happening like that, that's just 1021 01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,320 Speaker 1: just just not what's happening. Like he actually, like the 1022 01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,600 Speaker 1: union votes against him like a couple of times, like 1023 01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,240 Speaker 1: because because she's she's trying to do negotiations, right, and 1024 01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,920 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's this thing where if I'm understanding 1025 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,600 Speaker 1: the story right, I think what happened is that he's 1026 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,640 Speaker 1: trying to like negotiate like people coming back to works, 1027 01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:54,720 Speaker 1: negotiations can continue. It's like a show of good faith 1028 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 1: or whatever, and the unions like, funck no, we're not 1029 01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:59,520 Speaker 1: going back to work, and just like votes him down 1030 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,160 Speaker 1: and so like like this kind of stuff happens right 1031 01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,160 Speaker 1: like that, you know, like people respect him enormously and 1032 01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:07,440 Speaker 1: he he is like literally in some sense, he's like 1033 01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:09,640 Speaker 1: the avatar of the industrial working class. Like working class 1034 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,760 Speaker 1: people look at him and like they see themselves in him, 1035 01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,439 Speaker 1: and they see they see the power that he's able 1036 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,040 Speaker 1: to sort of how many people he's around there, and 1037 01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:18,840 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, ship, the union is strong, Like we 1038 01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,800 Speaker 1: are strong. We can actually sort of fight back. But 1039 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:26,080 Speaker 1: it's not like a sort of client patront thing. He's 1040 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,480 Speaker 1: it's just like he's at the head of a worker's 1041 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,400 Speaker 1: movement that is a force in and of itself and 1042 01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,560 Speaker 1: has its own agency and capacity to act, and Lula 1043 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,080 Speaker 1: has to like negotiate with that and like he has 1044 01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,520 Speaker 1: to sort of like rebuild their trust after he you know, 1045 01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,720 Speaker 1: is taking a sort of more moderate line. He he 1046 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 1: eventually gets like arrested in nineteen eighty, although he gets 1047 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,360 Speaker 1: released after like a month, and from there he gets 1048 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,120 Speaker 1: to work founding like every important leftist organization like the 1049 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,560 Speaker 1: last forty years. Um So in aitte eighty he's one 1050 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,760 Speaker 1: of the people who found the Workers Party. In eighty three, 1051 01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,120 Speaker 1: he founds the CUT or to the English translation of it, 1052 01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,880 Speaker 1: it's a unified Workers Central, which like to this day 1053 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,000 Speaker 1: is Brazil's like national trade Union Center. Like it's like 1054 01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,000 Speaker 1: it's like their big union federation. And this is illegal 1055 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,000 Speaker 1: at the time, but you just like fuck it, we're 1056 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,240 Speaker 1: doing anyways. Like these people are losing the the the 1057 01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:18,280 Speaker 1: tatorship losing control. Um in the CUT like plays a 1058 01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,360 Speaker 1: huge role in how the dictatorship loses power. Um so 1059 01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,120 Speaker 1: does the PT did something that Like the PT, the 1060 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,240 Speaker 1: PT like as a party are powerful enough that like 1061 01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,480 Speaker 1: they were involved in drafting the constitution. He's there for 1062 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:32,080 Speaker 1: the founding the land this workers movement, which is a 1063 01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:33,920 Speaker 1: social movement that like sees his land that's not being 1064 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,040 Speaker 1: used in leadership, is it the workers. He's heavily involved 1065 01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:37,640 Speaker 1: in the campaign to start of force the military out 1066 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:40,720 Speaker 1: of power and you know as a military tatorship like 1067 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,640 Speaker 1: kind of falls apart in democracy, like kind of like 1068 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:47,200 Speaker 1: fully returns to Brazil and nine he goes like full 1069 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:53,880 Speaker 1: inte electoral politics. But the problem is that like he's 1070 01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:58,439 Speaker 1: he's he's kind of too early for his politics. Um. 1071 01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: He he spends like the entire nineties just like getting 1072 01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:04,320 Speaker 1: his ass handed to him in elections over and over again. 1073 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:07,440 Speaker 1: And part of what's happening, you know, part of but 1074 01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,560 Speaker 1: part of literally what he's doing in the nineties is rebuilt. 1075 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,960 Speaker 1: It's like he's like rebuilding the entire Latin American left, 1076 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,040 Speaker 1: like from ground zero after the fall of the Berlin 1077 01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,120 Speaker 1: Wall Wall in the sort of like global defeated left 1078 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,840 Speaker 1: in the eighties. Um. He's one of the founders of 1079 01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,160 Speaker 1: the Foremost of South Paulo, which is the first of 1080 01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,200 Speaker 1: this series, a sort of like meetings of leftists in 1081 01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,080 Speaker 1: Latin America and the Caribbean, which is trying to figure 1082 01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,800 Speaker 1: out like okay, like hey, what what what is socialism 1083 01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:33,080 Speaker 1: now that like the Berlin Wall is down and everything 1084 01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,680 Speaker 1: is sort of going to ship and in that's a 1085 01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,640 Speaker 1: really bleak prospect. Like neoliberalism is completely ascended. Nationalism has 1086 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:44,600 Speaker 1: destroyed socialism, Like every sort of former social states following apart, 1087 01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: like capitalist are running rapping across the globe, like literally, 1088 01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,600 Speaker 1: like entire communist parties are just like disbanding and all 1089 01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 1: of the sort of cadre are becoming liberals. But you know, 1090 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:56,640 Speaker 1: as the nineties go on and people actually have to 1091 01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,200 Speaker 1: sort of like live under this, they increasingly realize say, 1092 01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,200 Speaker 1: it sucks ass and that I you know what what 1093 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,400 Speaker 1: living under Nail Elizabism means is like I m F 1094 01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,960 Speaker 1: structural adjustments and like like the economy, like there there's 1095 01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,560 Speaker 1: there's the Asian market collapse. There's a bunch of other 1096 01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,800 Speaker 1: market collapses. And you know, as after the epetits to 1097 01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,200 Speaker 1: sort of go on the like the first like part 1098 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:19,880 Speaker 1: of the left to really go on the offensive after 1099 01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,800 Speaker 1: their uprising in the left kind of starts to put 1100 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,320 Speaker 1: usself back together. And this left, like I I think, 1101 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,320 Speaker 1: like this version of left it's kind of dead now. 1102 01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,000 Speaker 1: But like I think there are people who are old 1103 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:34,240 Speaker 1: enough to remember it or like remember sort of like 1104 01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:36,600 Speaker 1: what it used to be. Like the slogan of this 1105 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:38,520 Speaker 1: sort of whole like like left, Like one of their 1106 01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:41,160 Speaker 1: big slogans is another world as Possible, which is sort 1107 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,280 Speaker 1: of like the anti, like the anti it's a response 1108 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,919 Speaker 1: to like thatchers there is no alternative. It's like another 1109 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:48,560 Speaker 1: world as possible. Is this is the sort of like 1110 01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:50,640 Speaker 1: alter globalization left, Like this is a left that does 1111 01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,840 Speaker 1: the Battle of Seattle, and Lula is there for like 1112 01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:55,840 Speaker 1: all of it, Like after Seattle, he helped after the 1113 01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,040 Speaker 1: Battle of Seattle, like he helps found the World Social Forum, 1114 01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: which is just like giant meeting place for like internet 1115 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:04,800 Speaker 1: social movements. Um. And you know, and so you know, 1116 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:06,600 Speaker 1: through through this whole period, like the Left is sort 1117 01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,920 Speaker 1: of gathering is strength everywhere like well okay in Latin America. 1118 01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,200 Speaker 1: And also like I mean, it isn't a lot of 1119 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:16,200 Speaker 1: places right like in India. Um, it's like Indonesia, there's 1120 01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,439 Speaker 1: always in the US, although the US has this problem 1121 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,760 Speaker 1: that the lefton happens and yeah that's a ship show. Yeah, 1122 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: it's amazing how that this movement existed almost everywhere else 1123 01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,400 Speaker 1: but not to my knowledge is as significantly here. Yeah, well, 1124 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:34,440 Speaker 1: I mean we we had we we had Seattle, right, 1125 01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,320 Speaker 1: but then when that levn't happened, that the unions like 1126 01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,320 Speaker 1: pulled out of doing any direct action ship and then 1127 01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:42,680 Speaker 1: kind everything kind of got eight by the the anti 1128 01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:47,640 Speaker 1: war movement, which and then and then the Green Scare. Yeah, 1129 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:51,560 Speaker 1: then that led to ad Busters doing and the stuff 1130 01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:56,600 Speaker 1: that occupied Wall Street and then yeah, and that's okay. 1131 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:58,440 Speaker 1: I would say this. I think there's I think there's 1132 01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,400 Speaker 1: a there's a break here, Like I think I think 1133 01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,040 Speaker 1: occupy is when that kind of politics died, because when 1134 01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,200 Speaker 1: when occupies there under And this is the sort of 1135 01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,000 Speaker 1: iron of this and we'll get you next episode, is that, 1136 01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: like you could, there's a good argument that the place 1137 01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:15,640 Speaker 1: that that politics actually died was in Brazil when the 1138 01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:19,760 Speaker 1: Workers Party fucking like tear gas and rubber bulleted the 1139 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,000 Speaker 1: absolute ship out of a bunch of protesters who had 1140 01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: been who were like the Brazilian wave of sort of 1141 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,720 Speaker 1: like that series of protests, and they crushed the ship 1142 01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,000 Speaker 1: out of them. It is horrible, Like this is one 1143 01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:30,360 Speaker 1: of this is like one of like my foundationals and 1144 01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,080 Speaker 1: political memories is like fucking tanks rolling down the street, 1145 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,919 Speaker 1: people shooting rubber bullets at people like seven year olds 1146 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:40,200 Speaker 1: getting tear gassed. It is a it is a fucking 1147 01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:42,880 Speaker 1: ship show. But and and two thousand too, like you know, 1148 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:44,880 Speaker 1: it's not that we have we haven't gotten there yet. 1149 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: Like even the sort of like most cynical trotsky I 1150 01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:50,520 Speaker 1: like can't imagine the fucking pig rolling tanks through the favelas, 1151 01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:52,000 Speaker 1: which is what they're gonna be doing in twelve years. 1152 01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,840 Speaker 1: And Britain we had that was when I can't requit 1153 01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,280 Speaker 1: re member when Tony Black there's nightty seven, But like 1154 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,360 Speaker 1: the British Tony Black, right like represented this other vision 1155 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:04,760 Speaker 1: for the last well and everything is like people like 1156 01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:06,840 Speaker 1: like one of the thoset everything. That's like people talk 1157 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:08,800 Speaker 1: about Obama as being like the end of the same wave, 1158 01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,120 Speaker 1: except Obama is sort of like to like even more 1159 01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:12,880 Speaker 1: so than any of the other politicians. What we're talking 1160 01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,000 Speaker 1: about is sort of like recuperation of this right, Like 1161 01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:17,519 Speaker 1: he's the guy who takes out energy and is like yeah, 1162 01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:21,320 Speaker 1: and and and okay, so we're we're gonna get into 1163 01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,719 Speaker 1: like the negative side of all of this ship next episode. 1164 01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,759 Speaker 1: But like in some sense Lula does play a similar 1165 01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,320 Speaker 1: role in Brazil, and we will get there, but right now, 1166 01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,720 Speaker 1: you know, Okay, So there's another part of this that 1167 01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,000 Speaker 1: like doesn't get talked about that much, which is that 1168 01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:41,479 Speaker 1: in the nearly two thousand's in Latin America, it's not 1169 01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:43,439 Speaker 1: just that like the left is winning elections, Like there 1170 01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 1: are open revolutions going on, Like I mean, there's there's 1171 01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:50,960 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of them. There's a like like arguably 1172 01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:55,720 Speaker 1: like the last communist revolution like ever happens in uh 1173 01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:58,120 Speaker 1: like the last sort of like the last gas of 1174 01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:00,720 Speaker 1: the classical workers whom that happens in Argentina in twous one, 1175 01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,360 Speaker 1: there's this huge revolt against the I M F and 1176 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,000 Speaker 1: Austarian Like this is this is the last time like 1177 01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:08,880 Speaker 1: in world history that like people occupy factories and then 1178 01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,960 Speaker 1: attempt to like like take them over and use them 1179 01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,960 Speaker 1: as a way of seizing the metic production. People occupy 1180 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,160 Speaker 1: factories in Bosnian has A Go VI and like fourteen. 1181 01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:20,760 Speaker 1: But like by that point, like like those guys are 1182 01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,320 Speaker 1: occupying factories and then having like occupy meetings in them, 1183 01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,679 Speaker 1: they're not like attempting to sort of like sees production. Yeah, 1184 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,160 Speaker 1: but you know, like like these there's are real revolutions, right, 1185 01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:32,320 Speaker 1: Like there's there's there's there's a coup against Hugo Travis 1186 01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:36,080 Speaker 1: that gets overturned by another popular revolution. Um there's the 1187 01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,600 Speaker 1: water and gas wars in Bolivia, which culminate in like 1188 01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:44,800 Speaker 1: literally deep like the capital is like entirely blockaded off 1189 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,240 Speaker 1: from the rest of the country and surrounded by roadblocks 1190 01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,840 Speaker 1: and the like five. The government is like fucking imploding. 1191 01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,960 Speaker 1: The military has fallen apart, like you know, like they 1192 01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,040 Speaker 1: like and this this is this is this is the 1193 01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:58,320 Speaker 1: sort of chain of events that brings even rallies into power, 1194 01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,440 Speaker 1: but like they very nearly destroyed the entire believing governments. 1195 01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,240 Speaker 1: The cycle sort of ends with the Wahaka uprising in 1196 01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:08,439 Speaker 1: two thousand and six. Were like like the people of 1197 01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,280 Speaker 1: Wahaka just fucking take the city and hold it for 1198 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,160 Speaker 1: like like a few months and like running through the 1199 01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:17,880 Speaker 1: democratic assemblies and then like the army shows up and 1200 01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:20,360 Speaker 1: they get yeah. But like you know, like like there 1201 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,400 Speaker 1: there is a point like that that was like I think, 1202 01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,960 Speaker 1: like like in my lifetime, like the workers of a 1203 01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:32,400 Speaker 1: city fucking just took it over. This this stuff that 1204 01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,760 Speaker 1: like you know, like I think now we're we kind 1205 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:36,400 Speaker 1: of like we have problems, Like I think most people 1206 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,080 Speaker 1: have sort of forgotten about this stuff like this, this 1207 01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:41,120 Speaker 1: was a moment in which like, like revolution and the 1208 01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:45,040 Speaker 1: destruction of capitalism was on the table. Yeah, and like 1209 01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:47,920 Speaker 1: I did a lot of it. I'm not sure I 1210 01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:51,519 Speaker 1: lived in Venezuela for some of this time briefly, but 1211 01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:56,439 Speaker 1: it felt very possible in a way that like it 1212 01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,880 Speaker 1: probably hasn't since, right, Like it was fast slating to see, like, 1213 01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,400 Speaker 1: and the cooperation between those countries was very real, right, 1214 01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,800 Speaker 1: Like obviously Cuban Cuban Cuban doctors are sucking everywhere, right 1215 01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:10,520 Speaker 1: if you travel resource saying there, But it was fascinating 1216 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,600 Speaker 1: to see like people from here coming here and they 1217 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,519 Speaker 1: think they had that Sal Paolo Forum right where they 1218 01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:19,280 Speaker 1: would where these ideas would be exchanged and it Yeah, 1219 01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,559 Speaker 1: and that was very formative for me. A genuinely felt 1220 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: like it was possible for something as a result of this, 1221 01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,639 Speaker 1: like Google ish I m F policy that we'd had 1222 01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:29,920 Speaker 1: for the previous twenty years. People like, no, funk this, 1223 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,000 Speaker 1: We're doing it our way and yet didn't tell Okay, 1224 01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:36,360 Speaker 1: but this is this is this is what's really weird 1225 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,439 Speaker 1: about Lula, because Lula is running into dozen too, and 1226 01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:45,320 Speaker 1: he's watching all of this happen, and his strategy, his 1227 01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 1: response to this is basically the analysis because okay, so 1228 01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,880 Speaker 1: she spent the entire nineties lose running letters campaign and 1229 01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,720 Speaker 1: losing right, and his strategy in two dozen two is 1230 01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:56,760 Speaker 1: he's going to move the PT the Workers Party to 1231 01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,400 Speaker 1: the right, both of hers a messaging end in policy, 1232 01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,000 Speaker 1: so it's not to sort of like scare voters. And 1233 01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:04,439 Speaker 1: he finally convinces the rest of the PT to do 1234 01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:06,920 Speaker 1: something he's been advocating for for like decades, which is 1235 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,559 Speaker 1: allying with sort of like liberal or conservative like non 1236 01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:14,400 Speaker 1: leftist parties, which they do in this election. And we're 1237 01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:19,040 Speaker 1: going to see how that goes later because oh boy, 1238 01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,320 Speaker 1: but you know, okay, so like why why why why 1239 01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,840 Speaker 1: are they sort of doing this. There's a few reasons. 1240 01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,400 Speaker 1: Partially it's because Lula has been like losing elections and 1241 01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:29,679 Speaker 1: being like, okay, we have to do something different. Partially 1242 01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,679 Speaker 1: it's because the PC is a product of the collapse 1243 01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:38,439 Speaker 1: of like, okay, the PT like in the two thousands, 1244 01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:42,479 Speaker 1: like the base that had formed that party is basically collapsed, 1245 01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:46,160 Speaker 1: right that the PT is like it it's core constituencies 1246 01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:49,519 Speaker 1: are sort of like leftist groups. There's like like left 1247 01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,559 Speaker 1: wing Catholic groups and the sort of like the giant 1248 01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,160 Speaker 1: sort of like trade union stuff that, like the giant 1249 01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:57,600 Speaker 1: workers troupment that Lula is a part of, but but 1250 01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:01,639 Speaker 1: he doesn't too, Like the Catholic Church has swung back 1251 01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:03,200 Speaker 1: to the right. Like the sort of the sort of 1252 01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:05,639 Speaker 1: left Catholic people are on the retreat. There's very few 1253 01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:10,120 Speaker 1: of them left. Um, there's what we're gonna talking about 1254 01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:12,040 Speaker 1: this more later. But the sort of giant industrial unions 1255 01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,880 Speaker 1: that like Lula have been ahead of like and that 1256 01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, Lula's career and the PT itself comes from, 1257 01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:19,720 Speaker 1: have been shattered by sort of like the by by 1258 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,519 Speaker 1: the industrialization and the collapse and sort of Brazil's industrial economy. 1259 01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:25,280 Speaker 1: And the product of this is that with without its 1260 01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,280 Speaker 1: sort of social basis, like Lula, KU's losing elections. So 1261 01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,600 Speaker 1: he goes, okay, so it's solution to this. And the 1262 01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,680 Speaker 1: PC understands this right, Like they're they're aware of the 1263 01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:37,400 Speaker 1: fact that like part of what's happening with them is 1264 01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,760 Speaker 1: that like they've they've you know, they're they're losing parts 1265 01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:42,840 Speaker 1: of their working class base because that that working class 1266 01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,880 Speaker 1: literally doesn't exist anymore. They're gaining a bunch of sort 1267 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,920 Speaker 1: of middle class like leftist activists, but they need to 1268 01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:51,600 Speaker 1: find a way to sort of broughten their appeal. And 1269 01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:56,120 Speaker 1: so like he promises, like openly gives us like speech 1270 01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:58,160 Speaker 1: about how he's not going to do like a rupture 1271 01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,439 Speaker 1: with the economy, which is what those party of compaigning 1272 01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,080 Speaker 1: on because you know, the ptr leftist right, the whole 1273 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:04,960 Speaker 1: point of another world is possible is we don't have 1274 01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,200 Speaker 1: to deliver a capitalist anymore. Lula is like no, no, no, no, no, guys, 1275 01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,760 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, I did I didn't mean that, like, 1276 01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:13,760 Speaker 1: we're not gonna do a rupture. And instead what Lula 1277 01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:17,960 Speaker 1: does is pledges to and like stays in the Brazil's 1278 01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:20,840 Speaker 1: commitments to the i m F, including like fucking insane 1279 01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:25,120 Speaker 1: ship like maintaining primary budget surpluses, which is nuts, and 1280 01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, and he instead of like yeah, yeah, he 1281 01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:30,240 Speaker 1: stays in the end. And you know, so Argentina famously, 1282 01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:32,160 Speaker 1: like in Argentina, solution to the sort of uprisings that 1283 01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:33,800 Speaker 1: are happening is that they default on our death in 1284 01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:34,960 Speaker 1: the I m F. And they're like fuck, you we're 1285 01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,679 Speaker 1: not paying, and Lula's like, now we're paying. Like it's fine, 1286 01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,839 Speaker 1: We'll just keep paying it. And like the PT itself 1287 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:45,240 Speaker 1: is like what the funk is going on? Like what 1288 01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,360 Speaker 1: what is happening here? Why is this happening here? Like 1289 01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,120 Speaker 1: why why is he doing this? And you know, Lula 1290 01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:52,880 Speaker 1: is just like, well, okay, we need we need to 1291 01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:54,360 Speaker 1: take power, we need to do this, take power, and 1292 01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:56,759 Speaker 1: so we does. And weirdly, in the middle of this cycle, 1293 01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:01,000 Speaker 1: sort of like the resurrection of the left, he's running 1294 01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:05,240 Speaker 1: increasingly to the right. And you know, okay. Part of 1295 01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:07,560 Speaker 1: what's happening here is that there's an inherent problem that 1296 01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:10,280 Speaker 1: leftist governments have when they take over the state, especially 1297 01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:12,840 Speaker 1: when they take over a capitalist state by winning an election, 1298 01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:15,439 Speaker 1: which is that if you are in control of the government, right, 1299 01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:17,080 Speaker 1: if you control the state, your job is now to 1300 01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:20,920 Speaker 1: keep the economy running. And in theory this isn't incompatible 1301 01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:23,200 Speaker 1: with leftist police. But if you stop, if you stop 1302 01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:26,280 Speaker 1: and think about what this actually means for a second, 1303 01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:30,360 Speaker 1: keeping the economy running means keeping the economy growing. An 1304 01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:34,120 Speaker 1: economic growth right means that capitalists have to keep making 1305 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,400 Speaker 1: more money every year than they did last year like that. 1306 01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:40,960 Speaker 1: That's what economic growth is, right, And this is a 1307 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,960 Speaker 1: real problem if you are a leftist taking power, because 1308 01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:49,120 Speaker 1: if you don't do this, you will a lose elections 1309 01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,320 Speaker 1: because regular people will get piste off because when capitalists 1310 01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,320 Speaker 1: don't make more money, they start firing people and be 1311 01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,479 Speaker 1: the bourgeoisie who only ever grudgingly accepts the left is 1312 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:00,280 Speaker 1: sort of like a legitimate power in the first place. 1313 01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:03,759 Speaker 1: If you're if you're if they're if they're not getting 1314 01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,720 Speaker 1: more money every single year, they will overthrow you. And 1315 01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:12,519 Speaker 1: you know, Lula knows this, right. But the solution to 1316 01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:16,519 Speaker 1: this problem that these they sort of like pink tie 1317 01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:20,760 Speaker 1: governments come to is basically to let a faction of 1318 01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,080 Speaker 1: the sort of national portions either sort of national capitalist 1319 01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:26,920 Speaker 1: class of people who are like capitalists domestically like they 1320 01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:29,120 Speaker 1: let them into this product of sort of like not 1321 01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,679 Speaker 1: this nationalist developmental project. And so what this means essentially 1322 01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,400 Speaker 1: is you are like you are buying you are buying 1323 01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,880 Speaker 1: a section of the of the ruling class off right. 1324 01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:40,240 Speaker 1: You are giving them ass to state contracts. You're doing 1325 01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:42,720 Speaker 1: state investments in infrastructure that helps them like expand things 1326 01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:45,080 Speaker 1: like mining, so they can you know, take some of 1327 01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:47,880 Speaker 1: the profits from it. You're giving them preferential access to 1328 01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,040 Speaker 1: government contracts and change, we sort of supporting you. And 1329 01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:52,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways this can look like the 1330 01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:54,559 Speaker 1: m A s and Bolivia, for example, starts bringing these 1331 01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,000 Speaker 1: elits directly into the party with the sort of developmentalist 1332 01:16:57,040 --> 01:17:00,160 Speaker 1: faction UM. In Brazil, it looks like an ally into 1333 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,640 Speaker 1: something called the Centro, which is like crow, sorry, my 1334 01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:06,560 Speaker 1: Portuguese is not good, um, which is this like this 1335 01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:09,200 Speaker 1: sort of like every present force in Brazilian politics, which 1336 01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:12,240 Speaker 1: is like the corruption faction. It's like this this series 1337 01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:14,800 Speaker 1: of sort of parties that are like kind of loosely knit, 1338 01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:16,920 Speaker 1: you kind of vote together, but you don't like they 1339 01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:21,200 Speaker 1: don't their parties nominally have ideology, but like their ideology 1340 01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,479 Speaker 1: is I am I am like a local political like 1341 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:27,120 Speaker 1: powerful political person, and you are going to pay me 1342 01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,040 Speaker 1: or you will not be able to pass literally any 1343 01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:34,000 Speaker 1: bill ever. And okay, so they have to form an 1344 01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:36,240 Speaker 1: alliance with sort of these parties. And the other thing 1345 01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:38,360 Speaker 1: they start doing is that they are just literally but 1346 01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,479 Speaker 1: like they just literally start buying people off. And this 1347 01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,000 Speaker 1: leads to sort of like a bunch of corruption scandals 1348 01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:48,679 Speaker 1: that we're gonna get you next episode. Um, but will 1349 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:52,439 Speaker 1: While Lula is in office, this seems like it's working 1350 01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,479 Speaker 1: really well. Um, He's able to sort of pay off 1351 01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:59,120 Speaker 1: the bourgeoisie and fund these social welfare programs for the 1352 01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,280 Speaker 1: Brazilian working class. And this has a massive impact, right 1353 01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:05,000 Speaker 1: Like this list something like twenty million people out of poverty. 1354 01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:09,080 Speaker 1: And okay and I, I and other people will argue 1355 01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:10,800 Speaker 1: about what it means to like lift people out of 1356 01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:13,960 Speaker 1: poverty and how poor they still are, but you know, 1357 01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,840 Speaker 1: it is true. These people have a massive increase in 1358 01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,840 Speaker 1: quality of life, like people are getting running water in 1359 01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:21,040 Speaker 1: their homes for the first time, like people are having 1360 01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:26,080 Speaker 1: electricity for the first time. Um, it's a's also with 1361 01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:29,040 Speaker 1: pointing out that Lula, who is white, spends a fucking 1362 01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:32,240 Speaker 1: ship ton of time fighting like fighting against racism and 1363 01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:35,160 Speaker 1: fighting for educational job opportunities for black people, even though okay, 1364 01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,400 Speaker 1: there's like an asterisk next to that that has to 1365 01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:43,120 Speaker 1: do with the police. That yeah, it's it's fucking oh boy, 1366 01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:46,920 Speaker 1: it is worse than you can possibly imagine. Um, who 1367 01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, like he's trying to end hunger. He has 1368 01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,320 Speaker 1: this very famous program called the Bosa Familia, which is 1369 01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:55,040 Speaker 1: basically like if you're pouring off and you agree to 1370 01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:56,880 Speaker 1: send your kids to school and get the vaccinating, like 1371 01:18:56,920 --> 01:18:59,200 Speaker 1: the government will just give you money. And you know 1372 01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,400 Speaker 1: there's also a Mike Roland part of this, which is 1373 01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:05,559 Speaker 1: my dot dot dot. Uh, this won't go oh yeah, 1374 01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:10,240 Speaker 1: nothing bad will happen from the Brazilian government attempting to 1375 01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,360 Speaker 1: get a bunch of people to take micro loans. Um, this, 1376 01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:17,160 Speaker 1: this does not lead us into fascism at all. But 1377 01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:21,559 Speaker 1: you know, okay, like this works, right, Lula is able 1378 01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:23,920 Speaker 1: to grow the economy, like Brazil's economic growth this periods 1379 01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,639 Speaker 1: like seven percent, which is sucking nuts, like year on year. 1380 01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:29,880 Speaker 1: Um he leaves office, was I've seen it, ultimately said, 1381 01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:32,880 Speaker 1: it's like an eighty five or ninety rating. He's unbelievably 1382 01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:38,920 Speaker 1: popular and you know, so every everything like looks good 1383 01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,320 Speaker 1: right kind of From inside Brazil, it looks like the 1384 01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:46,120 Speaker 1: PT has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of everyone. They've 1385 01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,280 Speaker 1: been like they've been a sucessful social democratic party and 1386 01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:51,439 Speaker 1: that they've lifted amongst people out of poverty. There's like 1387 01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:55,639 Speaker 1: people who are alive because like who are alive today 1388 01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:57,800 Speaker 1: who would not be because the PT was in power, 1389 01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:02,040 Speaker 1: right and and you know, like there are people who 1390 01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:04,320 Speaker 1: don't starve, there are people who don't go hungry, there 1391 01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:07,760 Speaker 1: are people who have opportunities, like educational opportunities to opportunity 1392 01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:10,360 Speaker 1: too themsels the first time ever. And it's a successful 1393 01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:12,720 Speaker 1: capitalist government too, because again seven percent year round your growth, 1394 01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:14,800 Speaker 1: right like this is fucking nuts, like this is this 1395 01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:16,840 Speaker 1: is a kind of economic growth that is like unimaginable 1396 01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:22,280 Speaker 1: in in most parts of the world. However, Comma, if 1397 01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:25,800 Speaker 1: this at all actually worked, we wouldn't be here right 1398 01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,960 Speaker 1: now with I, you know, the fascist president going into 1399 01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:35,840 Speaker 1: like hiding. And so next episodes, you know, Mark, I've 1400 01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:37,720 Speaker 1: been to I've been talking about grave diggers sort of 1401 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:39,760 Speaker 1: this episode right there's there's a famous part of the 1402 01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,160 Speaker 1: Communist manifesto Ory Talks where where Marks talks about like 1403 01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:46,120 Speaker 1: capital like capitals abroducing its own grave diggers. And capitalism 1404 01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:48,280 Speaker 1: has never done that, right like like to to to 1405 01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:50,840 Speaker 1: this day right now, capitalism has as yet to produce 1406 01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:54,360 Speaker 1: his own grave diggers. Social democracy has Bruce's own grave diggers. 1407 01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,760 Speaker 1: And every single fucking country anyone's ever done it. And 1408 01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,160 Speaker 1: the next episode, in next episode, we're going to watch 1409 01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:01,240 Speaker 1: the pt Bruce's own grave diggers, and we're going to 1410 01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:04,160 Speaker 1: watch the attempt to bury Louise and Nascia, Lula da 1411 01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:06,200 Speaker 1: Silva and the rest of the Brazilian working class of live. 1412 01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:10,160 Speaker 1: Oh good, you going to do a Bolsonara update because 1413 01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:14,440 Speaker 1: he's apparently left the building. Oh shit, okay, yeah, Bolsonara 1414 01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:17,960 Speaker 1: upweate Bolsonara has left the building. Hold on breaking breaking news. 1415 01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:22,479 Speaker 1: He left the palace finally, Yeah, in a convoy of 1416 01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:26,880 Speaker 1: black SUVs. Ope, he's expected to break the silence. Yeah, 1417 01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,599 Speaker 1: so I'm looking at Benjamin Fogel, who's pretty good on this. Yeah, 1418 01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,480 Speaker 1: he's expected to break the silence, but not to congratulate 1419 01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:38,320 Speaker 1: Lula on winning. Jesus Christ, is I have lost? Good bye? Okay? 1420 01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:43,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, there might be a if. I don't know 1421 01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:44,760 Speaker 1: what we're gonna do, if there's a coup in between 1422 01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:48,880 Speaker 1: in between this episode and the next episode, hopefully not. 1423 01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:50,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I want one thing that, 1424 01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:52,880 Speaker 1: like I will say and that I think we were 1425 01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:54,320 Speaker 1: gonn talking a bit about next episode. Is it like 1426 01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:58,960 Speaker 1: part of what's happening right now that's very important is 1427 01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:03,559 Speaker 1: that Biden is an office in the US. And mean, Okay, 1428 01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:05,920 Speaker 1: So the Brazilian military is a long history of doing cous, 1429 01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,960 Speaker 1: but usually when they're doing coups, they're doing cous with 1430 01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,280 Speaker 1: the backing of the US government and Biden like just 1431 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:16,560 Speaker 1: on a personal level fucking hates Bulsonaro, and there is 1432 01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:18,640 Speaker 1: a there was a very real chance that this is 1433 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:20,679 Speaker 1: a significant factor in why we haven't seen a coup. 1434 01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:23,800 Speaker 1: Is literally the president of the United States personally does 1435 01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,920 Speaker 1: not like the vast president of Brazil. And this is 1436 01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:31,000 Speaker 1: a fucking batshit state of affairs, right, Like, the fact 1437 01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:34,280 Speaker 1: that like the like personal inclinations of the President of 1438 01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:36,479 Speaker 1: the United States has as much of an impact on 1439 01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,680 Speaker 1: like the politics of an entire country is nuts. And 1440 01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:43,439 Speaker 1: this happened in the other direction for a while, right, 1441 01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:47,240 Speaker 1: Like it's I guess not personally, just the personal inclination 1442 01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:51,679 Speaker 1: of the president in that case. Yeah, well there's weird 1443 01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,599 Speaker 1: things here too, because like, like Lulu was reirdly friendly 1444 01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,519 Speaker 1: with it with Bush, which I think is why part 1445 01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:01,040 Speaker 1: of why he never liked, never tried to cut him, 1446 01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:08,920 Speaker 1: who called him the devil? Yeah because friends, Right, But 1447 01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:13,120 Speaker 1: Travis gives the speech about how like everyone has the 1448 01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:15,760 Speaker 1: road like at the at the social form gives how 1449 01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,479 Speaker 1: everyone's existing in their own like conditions. So you can't expect, like, 1450 01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, you can't expect Lula to be Travis, you 1451 01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:26,559 Speaker 1: can't expect Chaves to be Castro like stuff like that. Yeah, 1452 01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:31,560 Speaker 1: but it's it's weird. Hopefully Willsonarow fucking leaves office. If not, 1453 01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:35,519 Speaker 1: I don't know. But either way, I don't know. Things 1454 01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:41,920 Speaker 1: are the history of Brazil dream this period is also 1455 01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:43,760 Speaker 1: kind of bleak, but after this period is way the 1456 01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:47,320 Speaker 1: funk bleaker. So yeah, we're gonna talk about that tomorrow, 1457 01:23:47,680 --> 01:24:08,479 Speaker 1: and yeah, we'll update you. If there is a couph 1458 01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:12,320 Speaker 1: God is dead and the woke left have killed him, 1459 01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:15,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here the podcast where we 1460 01:24:16,040 --> 01:24:20,680 Speaker 1: celebrate the destruction of JayR Bolsonaro and the concept of 1461 01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:24,799 Speaker 1: Christianity and the human soul, both of which happened recently 1462 01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:29,120 Speaker 1: in Brazil. As as far as I understand from skimming 1463 01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:33,719 Speaker 1: the news on Twitter. Um, how's everybody else doing today? 1464 01:24:36,280 --> 01:24:39,760 Speaker 1: Utterly exhausted? But you know, such as such as such 1465 01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:45,240 Speaker 1: as such as the world without Christ destroyed. Yeah, that's 1466 01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:49,120 Speaker 1: what that's what the woke mob did. Speaking of woke mobs, 1467 01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:51,760 Speaker 1: what are we what are we doing? Today. What are 1468 01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:55,439 Speaker 1: we talking about? We are talking more about the Brazilian elections. 1469 01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:59,200 Speaker 1: I guess we should start with our with our perennial 1470 01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,240 Speaker 1: update of about what seems to be happening there right now. 1471 01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:08,799 Speaker 1: So okay, currently is what eleven am specific time recording 1472 01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:13,840 Speaker 1: this on? Yeah that sounds right, Yeah, yeah that one. 1473 01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,479 Speaker 1: So as of right now, Bolson like still so he 1474 01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:25,280 Speaker 1: he's appeared, but he still hasn't conceded the election. Um hasn't. Yeah, 1475 01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:30,040 Speaker 1: And okay, so the other thing that's been going on 1476 01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:32,600 Speaker 1: is that there's been Okay, one of the sort of 1477 01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:36,880 Speaker 1: perennial Boston Bolson row things is that he has a 1478 01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,240 Speaker 1: bunch of support among a bunch of sort of like 1479 01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:42,759 Speaker 1: like a bunch of different sort of like kinds of truckers. 1480 01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:45,400 Speaker 1: And there's been a bunch of this before. He's been 1481 01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:49,400 Speaker 1: setting up a bunch of barricades. I okay, from from 1482 01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:53,320 Speaker 1: talking to people on the ground and from what I've 1483 01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:56,960 Speaker 1: seen from it, I I don't know, it's hard to 1484 01:25:57,040 --> 01:26:00,280 Speaker 1: get It's hard to gauge like how serious these like, 1485 01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean blockades. I've seen videos of some that involve 1486 01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,400 Speaker 1: several dozen vehicles. Yeah, I mean, they have a lot 1487 01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:11,400 Speaker 1: of vehicles, like as as the thing. Okay, so the 1488 01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:16,000 Speaker 1: Supreme Court has ordered the police to like clear the barricades, 1489 01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:20,320 Speaker 1: and espect I can tell they're kind of just getting 1490 01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:28,280 Speaker 1: their asses kicked, like they're not really resisting like particularly hard. 1491 01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:32,040 Speaker 1: And so I I don't know if this is like yeah, 1492 01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:34,439 Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's the kind of thing that it 1493 01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:38,960 Speaker 1: will present perhaps a model for other people in the future, 1494 01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:41,880 Speaker 1: if there's any efficacy to it. It certainly could be 1495 01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:45,719 Speaker 1: part of an effective coup, like locking down the roads 1496 01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:50,599 Speaker 1: in this way. Like this is how like the against 1497 01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:55,320 Speaker 1: end started. For example, if both Signaro and his in 1498 01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:00,719 Speaker 1: the military don't both go in a dent right now, basically, 1499 01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,000 Speaker 1: um than than what these trekkers are doing will not 1500 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:07,680 Speaker 1: be it much more than like an annoyance. You know. 1501 01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,880 Speaker 1: It's the same thing as with with January six. If 1502 01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:14,200 Speaker 1: Trump when they breached the capital, if Trump had declared 1503 01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:17,559 Speaker 1: I'm remaining president, everybody rise up, well, then a whole 1504 01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:20,720 Speaker 1: thing might have happened. Um, but he didn't, and so 1505 01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:25,120 Speaker 1: the momentum that might have kind of led into a 1506 01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,360 Speaker 1: more thorough takeover of the government fizzled out with a 1507 01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:32,360 Speaker 1: bunch of guys getting you know, into fist fights with 1508 01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:35,120 Speaker 1: the Capitol police and ship. Yeah, and and there's an 1509 01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:37,240 Speaker 1: aspect I think to a sort of important of like 1510 01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:41,040 Speaker 1: so these are like Bolson Row like this whole sort 1511 01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:44,320 Speaker 1: of like Trucker's blockade thing like this has been going 1512 01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:47,320 Speaker 1: on in various forms for like the entire time he's 1513 01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:50,280 Speaker 1: been in office, and like he sort of turned them 1514 01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:52,760 Speaker 1: into these motorcides that he would do. But they're really 1515 01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:56,840 Speaker 1: weird in that. Like, Okay, so if they are blocking roads, 1516 01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:59,720 Speaker 1: but a lot of it is kind of pure spectacle. 1517 01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:01,559 Speaker 1: At there's this whole wave of sort of right wing 1518 01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:05,920 Speaker 1: candidates like like basically but there's there's a whole wings 1519 01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:07,960 Speaker 1: with the right wing politicians who like got their start 1520 01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:13,320 Speaker 1: from like doing Instagram videos from like or like TikTok's 1521 01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:16,480 Speaker 1: like ship like whatever, like basically like from these blockades. 1522 01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:18,840 Speaker 1: So like, I don't know, they don't they don't seem 1523 01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:21,000 Speaker 1: to be like as of right now, I don't think 1524 01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:25,200 Speaker 1: they're like an incredibly serious fighting force. But you know, 1525 01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:28,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's not good and this is happening. Um, 1526 01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:31,120 Speaker 1: it's also not good that the police was like initially 1527 01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:32,920 Speaker 1: cooperating with them, and that the police set up their 1528 01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,160 Speaker 1: own roadblocks to some people voting. So I don't know, 1529 01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,760 Speaker 1: the situation is not good, but it's not as bad 1530 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,040 Speaker 1: as it could be. And yeah, and I you know, 1531 01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,000 Speaker 1: I want to reiterate that, like the US has recognized 1532 01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:47,599 Speaker 1: that Lula has won the election, which I think makes 1533 01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:51,240 Speaker 1: it like infinitely harder. Yes, the fact that and this 1534 01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:55,200 Speaker 1: is this is one of those things when people on 1535 01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:57,879 Speaker 1: the left talk about like is there a harm reduction 1536 01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,439 Speaker 1: point and voting, Well, this his harm reduction, right, because 1537 01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:03,639 Speaker 1: if Trump had been in office, he would have backed 1538 01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:07,479 Speaker 1: Bolson Yarrow and Lula would be in prison again, and uh, 1539 01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:10,639 Speaker 1: there would be absolutely no hope for stemming the destruction 1540 01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:15,080 Speaker 1: of the rainforest. Not that things could still be a nightmare. 1541 01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:18,599 Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong, but we've we've at least 1542 01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:23,040 Speaker 1: avoided the most obvious way things could have been a disaster. Yeah, 1543 01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,719 Speaker 1: although I do want to point out that the Obama 1544 01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:30,840 Speaker 1: administration had a huge role in like this entire ship. 1545 01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:34,120 Speaker 1: It should be fair. The administration I don't think was 1546 01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:36,040 Speaker 1: trying to put Bosonari own power. They were trying to 1547 01:29:36,080 --> 01:29:40,880 Speaker 1: put the neelible rules in power. But they definitely we'll 1548 01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:43,760 Speaker 1: get into that next episode. But they definitely helped get 1549 01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:47,200 Speaker 1: us here. No, I mean that's true, and it also 1550 01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:52,679 Speaker 1: follows in the continually building story that like Biden's actually 1551 01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:57,200 Speaker 1: a much better precedent than Barack Obama. Yeah, low bar, 1552 01:29:57,400 --> 01:30:00,879 Speaker 1: but I mean indibly low bar, because is Barack Obama 1553 01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:03,799 Speaker 1: led directly to Donald Trump for a variety of reasons. 1554 01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:09,160 Speaker 1: There you are, this is this is a weird world 1555 01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:11,880 Speaker 1: that we live in. Yeah, and it's it's also like 1556 01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:14,680 Speaker 1: people are now starting you know, rightfully, so I know 1557 01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:16,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about a bunch of funked up 1558 01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:20,760 Speaker 1: stuff about Lula Um, most recently kind of bringing up 1559 01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,800 Speaker 1: his very bad takes on Ukraine. But it's also like 1560 01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:28,040 Speaker 1: I don't care. Like, obviously, I think I would always 1561 01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:30,600 Speaker 1: like for people to have, if they're going to have 1562 01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:33,880 Speaker 1: a representative democracy, better leaders. But at the end of 1563 01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:38,120 Speaker 1: the day, like the rainforest being destroyed at the rate 1564 01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:40,920 Speaker 1: it's being destroyed as an existential, existential threat to all 1565 01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:43,479 Speaker 1: life on Earth, and Lula has a proven track record 1566 01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:47,240 Speaker 1: of reducing defores station in the Amazon, So like what 1567 01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:49,320 Speaker 1: I like, I don't care that he has a bad 1568 01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,240 Speaker 1: take on you. I just don't like it. It doesn't 1569 01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:54,840 Speaker 1: matter really, Yeah, yeah, I like I saw, I saw 1570 01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:57,919 Speaker 1: I saw articles that were like Lula like supports democracy 1571 01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:00,880 Speaker 1: in Brazil but supports authoritarianism Abra. It's like, I guys, 1572 01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:04,400 Speaker 1: shut up, like holy shit, Jesus Christ, like I can 1573 01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:08,160 Speaker 1: I if I go back to two tho, like seventeen, 1574 01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:11,280 Speaker 1: I can find all of you like writing pulled fucking 1575 01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:14,920 Speaker 1: probos and now our articles, so like shut up. So okay, 1576 01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:18,880 Speaker 1: So let's get to how everything went to ship. So 1577 01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:22,320 Speaker 1: the last episode we sort of left the pt like 1578 01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:27,479 Speaker 1: writing high. Lula's out with like a like approve of rating. 1579 01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:32,120 Speaker 1: He's done like an economic miracle. He's pulled one of 1580 01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:35,880 Speaker 1: people out of poverty. I And you know, if things 1581 01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,720 Speaker 1: that continued like that, we wouldn't be here right now. 1582 01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:44,120 Speaker 1: So obviously something happens. And to understand what happens, unfortunately, 1583 01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:47,519 Speaker 1: we have to do some materialism. Um okay, so bear 1584 01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:49,400 Speaker 1: with me through the materialism. I promise we're going to 1585 01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:52,000 Speaker 1: get to a bunch of like absolutely horrific crimes against humanity. 1586 01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:54,280 Speaker 1: But first we needed you a bit of my love. 1587 01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:58,000 Speaker 1: Crimes against humanity. Yeah, yeah, there it's there. There are 1588 01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:04,679 Speaker 1: lots of criming. They're there. It's oh boy, I'm already hard. Wait, 1589 01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:09,439 Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't have said it that way, moving, moving 1590 01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:15,439 Speaker 1: swiftly on. So okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote here 1591 01:32:15,720 --> 01:32:18,840 Speaker 1: from one of the sort of more famous marks quotes 1592 01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:22,800 Speaker 1: for mation through beare uh. That is genuinely a very 1593 01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:25,720 Speaker 1: good way of understanding history, which is, men make their 1594 01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:27,559 Speaker 1: own history, but they do not make it as they 1595 01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:30,840 Speaker 1: please do. They do not make it under self selective circumstances, 1596 01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:35,000 Speaker 1: but under circumstances are existing, already given and transmitted from 1597 01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:38,600 Speaker 1: the past. So okay, what what what are the circumstances 1598 01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:43,679 Speaker 1: that like two thousand two, Lula is inheriting um Lula's 1599 01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:46,640 Speaker 1: sort of social democratic plan is able to sort of 1600 01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:49,240 Speaker 1: grow the economy and also pay off the ruling class 1601 01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:51,760 Speaker 1: to be able to stay in power at the same 1602 01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:54,040 Speaker 1: time because of something called the commodity boom um. A 1603 01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:57,880 Speaker 1: commodity boom broadly is just like it's a large spike 1604 01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:01,320 Speaker 1: across the board in the prices of commodities over a 1605 01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:04,240 Speaker 1: sort of period of time. We're we're using this sort 1606 01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:07,960 Speaker 1: of like mainstream bourgeois definition of commodity, which is like 1607 01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:11,400 Speaker 1: primary commodities and it's stuff you can like pick up 1608 01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,360 Speaker 1: off the ground, dig up or harvest. So it's things 1609 01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:21,200 Speaker 1: like soybeans, like copper, iron, horses, lead, um, condoms. Yes, 1610 01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:27,240 Speaker 1: we understand what commodities are. Yes, the look brazil condom tree. 1611 01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:30,519 Speaker 1: I don't know, I got nothing. So okay, Lula, Lula 1612 01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:35,240 Speaker 1: like takes office and leaves power like almost exactly perfectly 1613 01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:36,800 Speaker 1: to take to take advantage of the peak of the 1614 01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:40,640 Speaker 1: commodity boom. Right, Lula comes into power. Well, okay, so 1615 01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:42,400 Speaker 1: you wouldn't see us in two election he takes obviously 1616 01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:45,839 Speaker 1: ausn't three. Um the commodity boom, according to a Cambridge 1617 01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:48,720 Speaker 1: to Cambridge is a handbook of primary commodities in the 1618 01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:51,280 Speaker 1: global economy, took off a two thousand four and ended 1619 01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:54,000 Speaker 1: in about two thousand fourteen. But it's slowing by ten 1620 01:33:54,280 --> 01:33:57,759 Speaker 1: just eleven ish and Lula exits office and two doesn't 1621 01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:00,280 Speaker 1: tend to the two term limit, which means he never 1622 01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:03,560 Speaker 1: has to deal with the consequences of the downturn. And 1623 01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:06,120 Speaker 1: let's stop here for a second. How do term limits 1624 01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:08,840 Speaker 1: work in the Brazilian system, because it's not the same 1625 01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:11,160 Speaker 1: as here here, Like a term limit means you get 1626 01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:14,360 Speaker 1: your two as president and then you're done. Yeah, So 1627 01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:16,679 Speaker 1: I I Okay, so the way I think it works, 1628 01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:19,840 Speaker 1: and I could be wrong about this, but I'm sure 1629 01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:21,040 Speaker 1: the way it works. Okay, So you can have two 1630 01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:24,160 Speaker 1: terms and then you can't run again in a row. 1631 01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:27,320 Speaker 1: But if if like someone else comes in, you can 1632 01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:29,160 Speaker 1: then run again after that. It's just that you can 1633 01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:31,320 Speaker 1: only do two in a row. I mean, I'm happy 1634 01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:33,680 Speaker 1: that he's beaten Bolson Naro, but that is a very 1635 01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:36,360 Speaker 1: silly way to do it. Yeah. Well, and I will 1636 01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:39,040 Speaker 1: say something about this is something about Lula that like, 1637 01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,840 Speaker 1: I think kind of infuriates a lot of the people 1638 01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:47,439 Speaker 1: who like don't like him politically and want to sort 1639 01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:51,200 Speaker 1: of screaming. But his authoritarianism or whatever, like he he 1640 01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:55,519 Speaker 1: was always like like mostly really scrupulous about the sort 1641 01:34:55,520 --> 01:34:57,880 Speaker 1: of like democratic norm stuff. Like he a lot of 1642 01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:00,599 Speaker 1: other sort of like pink tied leaders in the same position. 1643 01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:02,840 Speaker 1: Like this is actually how even Morallies originally gets in trouble, 1644 01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:05,760 Speaker 1: is that he tries to seek a third term and 1645 01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:09,680 Speaker 1: Lula it's just like not I'm out, I'm fuck it, like, 1646 01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:14,840 Speaker 1: which is which is good. Yeah, I mean it kind 1647 01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:20,240 Speaker 1: of like on the one hand and sore in theoretical terms, 1648 01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:23,040 Speaker 1: this is sort of like good for Brazilian democracy, etcetera, etcetera. 1649 01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:26,040 Speaker 1: In practical terms, it's kind of a disaster. I mean 1650 01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:28,840 Speaker 1: it's it's good because I think that it's always good 1651 01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:33,360 Speaker 1: when popular leaders acknowledge like absolute limits. But yeah, I 1652 01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:38,320 Speaker 1: mean the timing wasn't ideal. Yeah, and you know it. 1653 01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:41,599 Speaker 1: But you know, okay, so like the but the reason 1654 01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:43,960 Speaker 1: that he's able to sort of like you know, like 1655 01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:45,920 Speaker 1: if he if he if like if the constitution had 1656 01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:47,519 Speaker 1: allow him to run for a third term, he would 1657 01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:51,240 Speaker 1: have just like like he would have clabbored everyone. There's 1658 01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:53,960 Speaker 1: there's just not even like any remote competition to him. 1659 01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:56,080 Speaker 1: And the reason is able to do this again, it's 1660 01:35:56,360 --> 01:36:02,120 Speaker 1: like boom, guy he got he got like ten percent 1661 01:36:02,240 --> 01:36:05,320 Speaker 1: less of the vote this time. I mean, yeah, but 1662 01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:09,120 Speaker 1: what was that? Yeah, Okay, like this election was like 1663 01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:15,120 Speaker 1: really close. You talk about this most recent one back then? Yeah, yeah, 1664 01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:18,519 Speaker 1: lu Lula back then like literally unstoppable political, very very 1665 01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:21,639 Speaker 1: popular at this point. Yeah. But but this is because 1666 01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:23,800 Speaker 1: of the commodity boom, and we need to in order 1667 01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:25,559 Speaker 1: to understand what is going to happen to the PT, 1668 01:36:25,640 --> 01:36:27,680 Speaker 1: we need to understand why the commodity will happen in 1669 01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:30,559 Speaker 1: the first place, Um, this turns out to be very important. 1670 01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:33,439 Speaker 1: There's there's a lot of causes technically that have to 1671 01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:36,920 Speaker 1: do with a lot of complicated macroeconomic stuff. The single 1672 01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:41,559 Speaker 1: most important cause, UM, for us, and I think generally 1673 01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:43,800 Speaker 1: the one that is like is credited with the reason 1674 01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,120 Speaker 1: that these commodity prices are increasing is the skyrocketing growth 1675 01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:50,280 Speaker 1: of the Chinese economy in two thousands, um. And I 1676 01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:51,880 Speaker 1: mean when I say is sky rockey and growth like 1677 01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:55,559 Speaker 1: we are talking like double digit GDP increases every year. 1678 01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:58,360 Speaker 1: This is when they have that Olympics where they have 1679 01:36:58,439 --> 01:37:01,920 Speaker 1: all the drummers, and you have that Newsweek article about 1680 01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:06,600 Speaker 1: how scary China is. Maybe it's um, yes, and and 1681 01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, and the sort of the massive increase industrial 1682 01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:14,280 Speaker 1: production like they are the CCP is like like Chinese 1683 01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:18,080 Speaker 1: industrializing on a scale that is I think like almost 1684 01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:21,080 Speaker 1: here that you want imaginable. And this means, you know, 1685 01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:24,640 Speaker 1: there's an enormous increase in demand for primary commodities. But 1686 01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:27,080 Speaker 1: this boom was only sustainable as long as the Chinese 1687 01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:30,280 Speaker 1: economy can maintain something like double digit GDP growth. But 1688 01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:32,559 Speaker 1: the problem is after she has in eight the Chinese 1689 01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:35,040 Speaker 1: economy starts to slow and sort of in response to this, 1690 01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:38,320 Speaker 1: and she does nine, the CCP does like one of 1691 01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:43,240 Speaker 1: the largest stimulus projects ever and they spend four trillion 1692 01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,519 Speaker 1: R and B on like infrastructure and welfare programs to 1693 01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:51,560 Speaker 1: stave off a recession. And and it works. But you know, 1694 01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:55,479 Speaker 1: like they this is this is like the largest like 1695 01:37:56,720 --> 01:38:02,200 Speaker 1: stimulus program ever and it can't really keep the economy 1696 01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:06,439 Speaker 1: growing like ever ever since two ten every single year 1697 01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:11,559 Speaker 1: well okay, I excluding the weird rebound stuff in one, 1698 01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:14,160 Speaker 1: but like like every every single year, like youar on 1699 01:38:14,280 --> 01:38:16,280 Speaker 1: your growth or the rate of growth of the Chinese 1700 01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:21,479 Speaker 1: economy has been decreasing, right, And okay, well the commodity 1701 01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:24,360 Speaker 1: boom you know, is produced by by feeling, you know, 1702 01:38:24,439 --> 01:38:28,920 Speaker 1: by by increased Chinese demand. But okay, what happens but 1703 01:38:29,080 --> 01:38:32,439 Speaker 1: when that you know isn't true? Um, but but you know, okay, 1704 01:38:32,439 --> 01:38:34,720 Speaker 1: so when in the two in the two thousand's like this, 1705 01:38:34,880 --> 01:38:37,080 Speaker 1: this is great. These are the sort of material conditions 1706 01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:40,599 Speaker 1: that make loopless like politics possible. Right, you have enormous 1707 01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:44,160 Speaker 1: economic growth and it bring and this economic growth is 1708 01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:48,200 Speaker 1: happening in sectors, like in a very important sectors to 1709 01:38:48,240 --> 01:38:50,160 Speaker 1: presuli an economy to the extent that is able to 1710 01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:52,320 Speaker 1: provide a revenue, a stable revenue base for the state 1711 01:38:52,360 --> 01:38:54,920 Speaker 1: that allows it to fund welfare programs like and pay 1712 01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:57,200 Speaker 1: off the bourgeoisie, which is you know, this is sort 1713 01:38:57,200 --> 01:38:59,200 Speaker 1: of like like papering over this sort of like fundamental 1714 01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:02,640 Speaker 1: contradiction of of of of the pt S base, right, 1715 01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:04,040 Speaker 1: which that they have they have to, like, they have 1716 01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:05,720 Speaker 1: to keep the economy running, so they have they have 1717 01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:09,480 Speaker 1: to pay off a bunch of sort of like incredibly 1718 01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:11,960 Speaker 1: corrupt dudes, and also just sort of like Brazilian capitalists, 1719 01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:14,719 Speaker 1: they also are trying to sort of dough the welfare programs. 1720 01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:18,599 Speaker 1: But you know, the commodity collapses and suddenly there's only 1721 01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:20,760 Speaker 1: enough money to either pay the capitalists or pay the 1722 01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:24,200 Speaker 1: workers and not both, and the project becomes to collapse. 1723 01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:29,080 Speaker 1: And and this this happens across Latin America, um like 1724 01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:31,640 Speaker 1: like I would make the argument that like the end 1725 01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:33,840 Speaker 1: of the commodity boom, like is the reaper that came 1726 01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:36,599 Speaker 1: from the Latin American left, it is at least as important, 1727 01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:38,960 Speaker 1: if not more so, in the collapse of the sort 1728 01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,080 Speaker 1: of the pink tide over over the course of the 1729 01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:44,240 Speaker 1: dozen tends. Like then the actual CIA, Like the CIA 1730 01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:47,400 Speaker 1: is very heavily involved in this, but the commodity boom 1731 01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:51,680 Speaker 1: just sort of like just nuking all of these economies 1732 01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:54,680 Speaker 1: like coming to an end like that. That is an 1733 01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:59,080 Speaker 1: enormously important, uh sort of like like element of this 1734 01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:01,479 Speaker 1: entire story. And there's all there's a there's another thing 1735 01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:03,160 Speaker 1: that we should note, which is that there's a problem 1736 01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:07,880 Speaker 1: with organizing your economy to be sort of like in 1737 01:40:08,120 --> 01:40:12,000 Speaker 1: a way that's reliant on sort of like primary commodity 1738 01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:15,720 Speaker 1: like export production. A Handbook of Primary Commodities and the 1739 01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:20,639 Speaker 1: Global Economy specifically notes quote Brazil significance and coffee, cotton, 1740 01:40:20,840 --> 01:40:23,799 Speaker 1: iron ore, sugar, and tobacco, and Chile has a dominant 1741 01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:27,439 Speaker 1: exporter of coffee. So okay, Brazil exports like eleven percent 1742 01:40:27,479 --> 01:40:29,400 Speaker 1: of the world's cotton, twenty percent of the world's iron 1743 01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:33,040 Speaker 1: oreft of its coffee, it's sugar, and eighteen percent of 1744 01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:36,719 Speaker 1: it's tobacco um and also has an enormous cattle industry, 1745 01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:38,439 Speaker 1: has got like a bunch of soybean farming, which is 1746 01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:41,479 Speaker 1: actually really important because it turns out as trying to 1747 01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:47,840 Speaker 1: get it turns people into into into soy boys. Yeah. 1748 01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:50,880 Speaker 1: It also makes soy sauce, which is are are very 1749 01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,040 Speaker 1: important for it. I mean more importantly are reserves of 1750 01:40:54,360 --> 01:40:58,519 Speaker 1: of beta coc energy would be disastrously low if if 1751 01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:01,800 Speaker 1: we didn't have Brazilian so So thank you JayR. Bolsaaro 1752 01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:05,920 Speaker 1: for keeping the soy flowing. Yeah, well, I mean this 1753 01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:07,559 Speaker 1: this is sort of like like this is a joke, 1754 01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,519 Speaker 1: like this is this is sort of the issue with this, right, 1755 01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:14,400 Speaker 1: Like okay, so politically this is a there's also a 1756 01:41:14,479 --> 01:41:17,479 Speaker 1: massive timber industry which has been literally destroying the entire planet. 1757 01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:19,519 Speaker 1: But like, okay, so like you just thinking, if you 1758 01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:24,720 Speaker 1: know anything about sugar, coffee, cottinent tobacco, you know those 1759 01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:28,280 Speaker 1: are slavery crops, and you know, like these are these 1760 01:41:28,280 --> 01:41:31,000 Speaker 1: are like the primary exports of a plantation economy, and 1761 01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:35,519 Speaker 1: the people who run those kind of like like economies, 1762 01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:38,160 Speaker 1: the people who are like those plantation owners or like 1763 01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:40,880 Speaker 1: the scariest people who have ever lived anywhere, like at 1764 01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:44,400 Speaker 1: any time on Earth. And you know, in Brazil, these 1765 01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:47,840 Speaker 1: people have been in power for five years and unfortunately 1766 01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:50,920 Speaker 1: this is like a big part of what sort of 1767 01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:54,320 Speaker 1: los economic miracle is resting on and and and this 1768 01:41:54,479 --> 01:41:56,759 Speaker 1: this isn't really like a base that produce of socialism, 1769 01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:01,320 Speaker 1: like if your economic base is relying on these like 1770 01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:06,080 Speaker 1: unbelievably psychotic racist like planter oligarchs, like you're economic based 1771 01:42:06,160 --> 01:42:11,920 Speaker 1: something that creates fascism. However, Comma, Robert, do you know 1772 01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,160 Speaker 1: what else produces fascism? UM? The products and services that 1773 01:42:16,200 --> 01:42:19,560 Speaker 1: support this podcast? Ding ding ding ding ding that some 1774 01:42:19,680 --> 01:42:24,320 Speaker 1: of them, I guess art fascism just directly so true. Yeah, yeah, 1775 01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:27,720 Speaker 1: the Gold the Gold people probably would be would be 1776 01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:31,960 Speaker 1: the main example of the UM. But we also are 1777 01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:40,920 Speaker 1: sponsored by big fascism dot org. Calm, goshh it, I don't, 1778 01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:44,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't just roll the fucking ants. Ah, 1779 01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:47,800 Speaker 1: we're back, boy. That was a good ad pivot. I 1780 01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:52,320 Speaker 1: hope everybody is happy, Chris. Why don't you continue talking 1781 01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:57,559 Speaker 1: about Lula? Yeah, so speaking of fascism, but doo doo, 1782 01:42:57,640 --> 01:43:02,640 Speaker 1: doo do do, I was doing a yeah not not 1783 01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:06,120 Speaker 1: not well, this is going great. It's hard to hard 1784 01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:11,519 Speaker 1: to We'll we'll have Daniel fix that up in post. Yeah. Okay, So, 1785 01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:13,960 Speaker 1: so speaking of creating fascism yet, let's talk about that 1786 01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:18,200 Speaker 1: time Lulu invaded Haiti. Al Right, well, okay, to be 1787 01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:23,559 Speaker 1: fair whoms among us hasn't invaded Haiti. This is true. 1788 01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:27,080 Speaker 1: That's true. I've never InVID Haiti. However, the US and 1789 01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:31,200 Speaker 1: Canada also and the UK that is more what I 1790 01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:37,920 Speaker 1: was saying. Okay, like it's yeah, so okay. So in 1791 01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:41,080 Speaker 1: two thousand four, a CIA backed coup, I said, Haiti's 1792 01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:47,639 Speaker 1: democratically elected leftist presidents Jane bachid aristide and initially okay, 1793 01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:49,880 Speaker 1: So the initial sort of occupation force a sent in 1794 01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:52,839 Speaker 1: by the U N is a US is like an American, 1795 01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:55,680 Speaker 1: French and Canadian force um. And they're sent in like 1796 01:43:55,920 --> 01:44:00,439 Speaker 1: ostensibly under the sort of guys of like restoring stability 1797 01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:04,479 Speaker 1: or whatever, um. Because when I think about who can 1798 01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:07,639 Speaker 1: make Haiti stable, it's France in the United States. Yeah, 1799 01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:14,840 Speaker 1: partners stability and Canada. Now glad you guys, are you know, 1800 01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:19,920 Speaker 1: getting getting involved in in your big brothers uh crimes 1801 01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:24,680 Speaker 1: against humanity? I'm wondering for the Canadian stuff. How how 1802 01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:26,799 Speaker 1: do they ship all all of all of the mounties 1803 01:44:26,840 --> 01:44:30,599 Speaker 1: all the way to Haiti? Okay, so they took their 1804 01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:36,639 Speaker 1: horses over the water, garrison built the land bridge. Yeah 1805 01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, okay, So but the thing about this force, 1806 01:44:40,160 --> 01:44:45,479 Speaker 1: right is that like okay, so even to like the 1807 01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:49,720 Speaker 1: most casual observer, having literally France in the US and 1808 01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:52,479 Speaker 1: also Canada, which is like it's just the US, but 1809 01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:57,120 Speaker 1: there's also a French part of it, like literally weird 1810 01:44:57,320 --> 01:45:03,560 Speaker 1: fucking sausage soup on their damn French fries. Like like 1811 01:45:04,080 --> 01:45:08,040 Speaker 1: the optics of these people just militarily occupying Haiti is 1812 01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:12,080 Speaker 1: really bad. Um, so okay, you want to trying to 1813 01:45:12,120 --> 01:45:15,600 Speaker 1: figure out like a permanent force. And initially Lula like 1814 01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:19,560 Speaker 1: opposes Brazil getting involved in this, which is good, but 1815 01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:23,680 Speaker 1: that would make sense when I think about change, When 1816 01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:26,800 Speaker 1: I think about whether or not Brazil should be involved 1817 01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:29,840 Speaker 1: in places, Haiti would not be the top of my list. 1818 01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:32,800 Speaker 1: This is always this is always just like a really 1819 01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:35,120 Speaker 1: sad thing of sort of like just like the history 1820 01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:37,840 Speaker 1: of Latin America of like how many countries like, oh 1821 01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,599 Speaker 1: their existence to Haiti over and over and over again, 1822 01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:44,280 Speaker 1: like sending them troops and ships and weapons, and then 1823 01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:46,240 Speaker 1: every single one of these countries are like, ah, fuck 1824 01:45:46,320 --> 01:45:51,919 Speaker 1: you Haiti. So Lula like it's basically Lola becomes convinced 1825 01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:54,480 Speaker 1: that like this is this is like his big opportunity 1826 01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:58,120 Speaker 1: to like build the influence of Brazil and the international 1827 01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:01,479 Speaker 1: stage and so Brazil just like takes over the occupation 1828 01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,719 Speaker 1: or the auspices of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti, 1829 01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:12,840 Speaker 1: which has the like utterly impronounceable acronym minished or something. 1830 01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:18,240 Speaker 1: God damn it, guys, you know how to do an acronym. 1831 01:46:18,439 --> 01:46:24,080 Speaker 1: You have enough money, Jesus, you would think. However, Comma, no, 1832 01:46:24,439 --> 01:46:28,080 Speaker 1: it's this bullshit and okay, So apparently this is part 1833 01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:29,880 Speaker 1: of a plan to try to get US and French 1834 01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:32,960 Speaker 1: support for a bid to get Brazil a permanency in 1835 01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:36,160 Speaker 1: the UN Security Council. If you google who is currently 1836 01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:38,519 Speaker 1: on the UN Security Council, you will see how this went, 1837 01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:43,800 Speaker 1: which is to say, it did not work and ship 1838 01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:47,680 Speaker 1: starts going horrifically badly almost immediately. Um basically like at 1839 01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:50,240 Speaker 1: the outside of the occupation, Brazilian chiefs and Haiti launched 1840 01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:53,920 Speaker 1: an attack on a quote gang leader. And note, by 1841 01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:57,599 Speaker 1: the way here the terminology that he's used to describe 1842 01:46:57,640 --> 01:47:00,400 Speaker 1: this operation and the people, the people that the fighting 1843 01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:03,600 Speaker 1: is exactly the same way as the paramilitary forces in 1844 01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,720 Speaker 1: Haiti are described like right now by the U S 1845 01:47:06,800 --> 01:47:08,559 Speaker 1: and the u N. As the US tries to stage 1846 01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:11,920 Speaker 1: another invasion, this time with the backing of Mexico is 1847 01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:17,080 Speaker 1: nominally leftist president. A'm low so uh yeah, real sort 1848 01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:21,559 Speaker 1: of legacy of people who Americans think are leftists doing 1849 01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:25,560 Speaker 1: imperialism and Haiti. Good job, everyone, well everybody does a 1850 01:47:25,640 --> 01:47:28,400 Speaker 1: little bit of imperialism and Haiti, you know, okay, as 1851 01:47:28,400 --> 01:47:30,439 Speaker 1: a treat I mean, this is the thing, right right, 1852 01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:33,400 Speaker 1: every every single country in Latin America is bound and 1853 01:47:33,479 --> 01:47:39,160 Speaker 1: determined to prove that you actually cannot do I contrary 1854 01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:41,920 Speaker 1: to contrary sort of popular opinion about this, you actually 1855 01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:45,240 Speaker 1: can't do social democracy without imperialism. And every single time 1856 01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:46,960 Speaker 1: someone tries to do a social democracy they have to 1857 01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:49,920 Speaker 1: invade Haiti. It's just sort of like it's it's, it's, it's, it's, 1858 01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:53,720 Speaker 1: it's it's it's in the contract here, okay. And so 1859 01:47:54,000 --> 01:47:57,000 Speaker 1: they they the the un the sort of light And 1860 01:47:57,040 --> 01:47:58,280 Speaker 1: by the way, I should point out that the u 1861 01:47:58,439 --> 01:48:01,519 Speaker 1: N Force is commanded by a Brazilian general, like the 1862 01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:03,880 Speaker 1: entire basically wants the Brazilians take over the It's commanded 1863 01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:09,160 Speaker 1: by Brazilian generals the entire time. Um, and they seem nice, yeah, okay, 1864 01:48:09,200 --> 01:48:12,920 Speaker 1: So they go after this guy and they fired twenty 1865 01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:16,360 Speaker 1: two thousand rounds of ammunition into basically just like our 1866 01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:20,439 Speaker 1: apartment buildings. UM. To this day, nobody knows how many 1867 01:48:20,479 --> 01:48:22,960 Speaker 1: people they killed, but from my winners reports, we know 1868 01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:26,120 Speaker 1: they killed babies, they killed children, they killed pregnant women. 1869 01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:30,519 Speaker 1: It is it is Vietnam ship. It is absolutely awful. Um. 1870 01:48:31,280 --> 01:48:35,600 Speaker 1: Augusta Helano, who I guess the Heleno, I don't know 1871 01:48:35,600 --> 01:48:38,160 Speaker 1: how us name. He's the guy who leads this operation. 1872 01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:43,920 Speaker 1: Becomes the head of Bolsonnaro's Institutional Security Bureau. Um here here, 1873 01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:47,960 Speaker 1: here's a headline from PODA three sixty from last week. Quote. 1874 01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:50,720 Speaker 1: It is not possible to admit the return of the 1875 01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:53,519 Speaker 1: Red Gang, says Hellano. And by the Red Gang he 1876 01:48:53,800 --> 01:48:58,200 Speaker 1: means Lula. He's calling Lula communist. And this is fine 1877 01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:00,920 Speaker 1: and good from a guy who again is the head 1878 01:49:01,080 --> 01:49:05,360 Speaker 1: of the Institutional Security Bureau. Um. All right, this guy 1879 01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:10,880 Speaker 1: like sucks so much. Um. When you were retiring two 1880 01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:14,280 Speaker 1: thousand eleven, Helano defended this is from Bruter's And when 1881 01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:17,800 Speaker 1: he retired in two thousand eleven, Helano defended Brazil's sixty 1882 01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:21,840 Speaker 1: four military dictatorship as a bulwark against the communist quoted 1883 01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:25,880 Speaker 1: the communization of the country and Okay, so like we 1884 01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:27,760 Speaker 1: we can say that as as much as sort of 1885 01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:32,200 Speaker 1: Brazil's like fascism his home grown, and this is absolutely true, 1886 01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:35,839 Speaker 1: they're also just like eating the assend if you pose boomerang, 1887 01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:38,720 Speaker 1: because all of the fascism that they're about to do 1888 01:49:39,120 --> 01:49:42,719 Speaker 1: is exported Dehiti before it comes back. Um, here's some wriuters. 1889 01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:46,759 Speaker 1: This is talking about Bolsonaro's cabinet, his proposed his proposed 1890 01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:51,719 Speaker 1: defense minister, Former General Fernando Alvarezi Silva, served under Helano 1891 01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:56,400 Speaker 1: as a as an operations chief. Bolsonardo's incoming infrastructure minister, 1892 01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:03,439 Speaker 1: Tarcisio free TOAs was a senior UN military engineer in Haiti, 1893 01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:07,080 Speaker 1: arriving shortly after Hellano left in two thousand five. Retired 1894 01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:12,679 Speaker 1: General Carlos Alberto does Santa Cruz, Brazil's next government minister, 1895 01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:15,760 Speaker 1: led UN troops in the Caribbean nation two seven. All 1896 01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:17,320 Speaker 1: of those guys, by the way that this was written 1897 01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:20,200 Speaker 1: before the election, Um, all of those guys took office, 1898 01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:26,320 Speaker 1: uh to Fully two of of Bolsonaro's secretaries of government 1899 01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:31,360 Speaker 1: were part of this occupation. So yeah, this this obviously 1900 01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:35,760 Speaker 1: it went great for Lula, Like yeah, okay, a good job. 1901 01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:38,479 Speaker 1: You you you you sent to logic colonial troops to 1902 01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:41,040 Speaker 1: occupy Haiti and then all of the generals came home 1903 01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:44,080 Speaker 1: and we're like, let's fucking do fascism here too. Yeah. 1904 01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:46,920 Speaker 1: So in this episode, which we're talking a lot about 1905 01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:49,360 Speaker 1: sort of the Brazilian fascism because you know, this is 1906 01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:51,040 Speaker 1: a britil episode, but I don't want to minimize like 1907 01:50:51,120 --> 01:50:53,760 Speaker 1: what this did to Haiti, where like to this day, 1908 01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:58,000 Speaker 1: Lula is like fucking despised um for you know, like 1909 01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:00,400 Speaker 1: betraying the Haitian people and fucking you puy in the 1910 01:51:00,400 --> 01:51:03,120 Speaker 1: country with troops. Like there's there's this whole thing where 1911 01:51:03,760 --> 01:51:06,760 Speaker 1: like he Lula goes to Haiti and he has this 1912 01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:08,640 Speaker 1: whole thing about how like he has He's playing like 1913 01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:10,559 Speaker 1: a soccer match and he's like, Okay, we're gonna show 1914 01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:13,160 Speaker 1: the world there's an alternative to bullets. And meanwhile, this 1915 01:51:13,240 --> 01:51:15,919 Speaker 1: soccer stadium is literally surrounded by the by the Brazilian 1916 01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:21,040 Speaker 1: army and it's oh boy, um, I love I love 1917 01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:23,440 Speaker 1: showing the world there's I mean, there is an alternative 1918 01:51:23,479 --> 01:51:26,280 Speaker 1: to bullets. And it's just threatening people with your guns 1919 01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,320 Speaker 1: because they know you've shot enough people that you'll use 1920 01:51:29,400 --> 01:51:31,720 Speaker 1: them if and drones too. By the way, this is 1921 01:51:31,800 --> 01:51:33,280 Speaker 1: this is where this is where the UN learns how 1922 01:51:33,280 --> 01:51:35,920 Speaker 1: to do drone warfare. Um. The everything is happening here 1923 01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:37,960 Speaker 1: is this is this occupation is where the UN starts 1924 01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:40,720 Speaker 1: to like fight quote like hybrid wars for the first time, 1925 01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, the like the wars that they're that they're 1926 01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:46,479 Speaker 1: doing these sort of peacekeeping operations quote unquote, Uh, they're 1927 01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:48,599 Speaker 1: starting they starting to do kind of insurgency ship where 1928 01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:51,120 Speaker 1: like they animate can be mixed in with the population, 1929 01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:54,080 Speaker 1: and you know that they kill a ship ton of people. 1930 01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:57,000 Speaker 1: There is rampant rape and sexual assault because it turns 1931 01:51:57,040 --> 01:51:59,960 Speaker 1: out that when you when you send troops to another 1932 01:52:00,040 --> 01:52:03,240 Speaker 1: country to occupy it, this is what happens. Um. And 1933 01:52:03,439 --> 01:52:05,519 Speaker 1: when when when when this force eventually pulls out in 1934 01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:07,840 Speaker 1: Shent seventeen, they just like leave a ship ton of 1935 01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:11,519 Speaker 1: fither of those babies behind because the people who you know, 1936 01:52:11,720 --> 01:52:13,400 Speaker 1: did all this ship like fuck it, We're just gonna leave, 1937 01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:17,519 Speaker 1: like leave the children behind. Um, I think most famously. Okay, 1938 01:52:17,560 --> 01:52:20,599 Speaker 1: so there's there's a giant earthquake in Haiti and justn't 1939 01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:23,240 Speaker 1: ten and this leads to this like enormous sort of 1940 01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:27,519 Speaker 1: redoubling of the occupation and troops are brought in from 1941 01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:29,960 Speaker 1: other parts of the world, including there's a contisition from Nepaul. 1942 01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:33,799 Speaker 1: And the results of this is that definitely Haiti seems 1943 01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:38,280 Speaker 1: like a place Nepalese soldiers. This is. This is, by 1944 01:52:38,320 --> 01:52:41,040 Speaker 1: the way, like this this is like the new revolutionary 1945 01:52:41,120 --> 01:52:43,879 Speaker 1: government in Nepal that is like finally defeated the monarchy 1946 01:52:44,479 --> 01:52:50,080 Speaker 1: after like god decades. It's like we all looked at 1947 01:52:50,120 --> 01:52:53,000 Speaker 1: the British Empire and we're like, well, that's clearly fucked up. 1948 01:52:53,360 --> 01:52:56,800 Speaker 1: But what if we did it in a decentralized way, right, 1949 01:52:57,160 --> 01:52:59,240 Speaker 1: Like what if what if it wasn't just the British? 1950 01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:02,200 Speaker 1: What if every one was sending Nepolie shock troops and 1951 01:53:02,280 --> 01:53:06,880 Speaker 1: to crack down on popular insurgencies. Well, and you know, 1952 01:53:07,000 --> 01:53:08,519 Speaker 1: and the thing that the thing that particularly goes wrong 1953 01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:10,519 Speaker 1: with the Nepolice troops is that the Nepolice troop would 1954 01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:13,960 Speaker 1: bring cholerade to Haiti. And okay, well again, who hasn't 1955 01:53:14,800 --> 01:53:16,959 Speaker 1: you know? Okay, there's the thing, the defeat of cholerade. 1956 01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:20,000 Speaker 1: This is like one of the few genu Wined victories 1957 01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:24,120 Speaker 1: we have had over sort of like like the last 1958 01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:26,240 Speaker 1: two years over the forces that have caused like human 1959 01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:28,560 Speaker 1: misery and suffering for like this time of memorial is 1960 01:53:28,600 --> 01:53:31,439 Speaker 1: that we defeated cholera and then we brought it back 1961 01:53:31,880 --> 01:53:34,680 Speaker 1: the fucking you had occupation brings like this is the 1962 01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:37,559 Speaker 1: this is the first lower scale color outbreak in modern times, 1963 01:53:37,680 --> 01:53:44,280 Speaker 1: UM eight hundred thousandations get color results. Christ, Yeah, it's 1964 01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:48,919 Speaker 1: it's not hard to not spread cholera. Yeah, we success, 1965 01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:52,160 Speaker 1: Like even if you're looking by the standards of military occupations, 1966 01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:56,160 Speaker 1: like the Russians didn't haven't spread cholera in Ukraine. It's 1967 01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:59,760 Speaker 1: not hard to not SPA in Vietnam now, like we 1968 01:54:00,240 --> 01:54:02,920 Speaker 1: create a cholera epidemic in Afghanistan. Ad Right, it is 1969 01:54:03,040 --> 01:54:06,200 Speaker 1: not hard to not create a cholera epidemic to be 1970 01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:07,920 Speaker 1: to be fair, the s the Saudis have managed to 1971 01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:10,200 Speaker 1: create one and create one in Yemen now too, but 1972 01:54:10,600 --> 01:54:13,600 Speaker 1: that's probably worse than this one. But that more just 1973 01:54:13,840 --> 01:54:18,680 Speaker 1: reinforces my point that most imperialist occupations are able to 1974 01:54:18,920 --> 01:54:23,560 Speaker 1: not cause epidemics. It's hard and okay, you know, and 1975 01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:27,559 Speaker 1: and obviously right like, okay, you you've now created your 1976 01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:30,400 Speaker 1: colonial army. The colonial army is gonna come home and 1977 01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:34,800 Speaker 1: literally these same troops go back to Brazil and launch 1978 01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:38,920 Speaker 1: a war in the favelas um like like under under 1979 01:54:39,000 --> 01:54:42,720 Speaker 1: under Joba Russo's PT Like the fucking army is literally 1980 01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:45,720 Speaker 1: occupying the favillas. And you know this is all part 1981 01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:47,560 Speaker 1: of the PATS like massive campaign to sort of buy 1982 01:54:47,600 --> 01:54:49,760 Speaker 1: weapons and modernize the army, which is you know, and 1983 01:54:50,160 --> 01:54:55,360 Speaker 1: by like, I I think currently they're involved in like okay, okay, 1984 01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:59,400 Speaker 1: I I'm not entirely sure about my dates on this. 1985 01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:02,560 Speaker 1: I I'm tirely sure if they're if they're currently involved 1986 01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:05,840 Speaker 1: in nine UNPC co operations you sixteen, but there are 1987 01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:11,560 Speaker 1: like there are there are I Brazilian troops like all 1988 01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:16,080 Speaker 1: over the world. I still doing this bullshit. And you know, 1989 01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:18,880 Speaker 1: again as we've talked about, like literally the people who 1990 01:55:18,920 --> 01:55:20,840 Speaker 1: are in Haiti like are the people who are going 1991 01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:24,240 Speaker 1: to help put Lula in prison and put Bulson in power. 1992 01:55:24,680 --> 01:55:28,400 Speaker 1: So you know this is some I this is some 1993 01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:35,800 Speaker 1: fucking enormous like creating your own grave diggers ship. Okay, 1994 01:55:35,960 --> 01:55:38,560 Speaker 1: So okay, well we've now we've now gotten through one 1995 01:55:38,800 --> 01:55:41,000 Speaker 1: of the sort of sets of grave diggers the PTS 1996 01:55:41,040 --> 01:55:46,680 Speaker 1: building for themselves, um. But also back in back in Brazil, 1997 01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:49,560 Speaker 1: things are also like you know, not going great for them, 1998 01:55:49,840 --> 01:55:52,360 Speaker 1: which and the way that this is specifically not going 1999 01:55:52,440 --> 01:55:54,640 Speaker 1: great is that like even even you know, in the 2000 01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:59,320 Speaker 1: hour of triumph, triumph of the Workers Party, right Lula Sendent, etcetera, etcetera, 2001 01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:02,040 Speaker 1: there is a massive fissure opening under the feet of 2002 01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:05,440 Speaker 1: the Brazilian left. And that fisher is the gig economy. Um. 2003 01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:10,200 Speaker 1: We we have talked like literally ad nauseum on this 2004 01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:13,120 Speaker 1: show about how the economy is bad for workers, um, 2005 01:56:14,480 --> 01:56:18,560 Speaker 1: for for our purposes. The thing that's kind of important 2006 01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:21,640 Speaker 1: here is that doing this kind of gig work right, 2007 01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:25,200 Speaker 1: like becoming an independent like an independent contractor, um, it 2008 01:56:25,400 --> 01:56:28,840 Speaker 1: has a profound social and political effect, and it creates 2009 01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:31,480 Speaker 1: a sort of profound social political animization, right. It breaks 2010 01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:34,000 Speaker 1: down the sort of social bonds that like built the 2011 01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:36,000 Speaker 1: workers who have been in the PT and transport and 2012 01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:40,200 Speaker 1: and instead of instead of the sort of like you know, massification, right, 2013 01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:43,040 Speaker 1: like the conversion of people into sort of like these 2014 01:56:43,080 --> 01:56:47,200 Speaker 1: these these these like like concrete mass social entities who 2015 01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:50,800 Speaker 1: can like take collective action. You get these neo liberal 2016 01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:54,480 Speaker 1: subjects who are incredibly atomized, incredibly isolated and vulnerable to 2017 01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:57,280 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, fascist projects that promise like 2018 01:56:57,360 --> 01:56:59,720 Speaker 1: community and unity, like this new organic hall and you know, 2019 01:56:59,800 --> 01:57:02,640 Speaker 1: get for bulcenario draws support from oh wait, it's a 2020 01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:06,000 Speaker 1: it's a newly evangelical section of the working class. Um 2021 01:57:07,080 --> 01:57:09,600 Speaker 1: And and to to be clear here, the informal sector 2022 01:57:09,640 --> 01:57:12,840 Speaker 1: of Brazil has always been massive, but the way the 2023 01:57:12,920 --> 01:57:16,880 Speaker 1: PC runs their welfare programs makes everything just exponentially worse. 2024 01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:19,560 Speaker 1: Um We talked about this a bit last episode, but 2025 01:57:19,640 --> 01:57:21,879 Speaker 1: one of the big things that the PC's welfare programs 2026 01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:24,920 Speaker 1: do is they're about getting giving people access to micro credit. 2027 01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:30,240 Speaker 1: And Okay, so in the short run this is technically 2028 01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:35,040 Speaker 1: incredibly effective at combating poverty. But it had another effect, 2029 01:57:35,200 --> 01:57:40,440 Speaker 1: which was to sort of like deeply, infirmly like sort 2030 01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:43,560 Speaker 1: of like like ingrained vast sections of Brazilian workers into 2031 01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:47,080 Speaker 1: the banking system and tournament to micro entrepreneurs. And okay, 2032 01:57:47,160 --> 01:57:51,600 Speaker 1: so being a social democratic party and on purpose constructing 2033 01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:55,240 Speaker 1: an entire class of micro entrepreneurs is like maybe the 2034 01:57:55,320 --> 01:57:58,440 Speaker 1: single best example of producing your own grave figgures that 2035 01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:01,760 Speaker 1: I've seen since like a military dictatorship cooperating with Lulu 2036 01:58:01,840 --> 01:58:06,080 Speaker 1: in the first place, this is a terrible idea. But 2037 01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so I I think I think I 2038 01:58:08,640 --> 01:58:11,880 Speaker 1: think it's worth asking, like, why is the PT doing this? 2039 01:58:12,000 --> 01:58:14,720 Speaker 1: Ship right? Like this is this is something that is 2040 01:58:14,760 --> 01:58:19,200 Speaker 1: like otherwise absolutely incomprehensible. Um And the answer is that 2041 01:58:19,320 --> 01:58:21,120 Speaker 1: the PC was never quite the party that people think 2042 01:58:21,160 --> 01:58:23,440 Speaker 1: it is. Um Here here is from a Brazilian anarchist 2043 01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:27,000 Speaker 1: writing and crime think. The rulers linked to the realization 2044 01:58:27,080 --> 01:58:30,200 Speaker 1: of mega events cheaply re political rewards for FIFA and 2045 01:58:30,240 --> 01:58:32,960 Speaker 1: its corporate crony is not coincidentally the same companies that 2046 01:58:33,080 --> 01:58:36,040 Speaker 1: finance the electoral campaigns of the PT. The benefits were 2047 01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:39,919 Speaker 1: financial profits stretched into the billions, under written by public resources, 2048 01:58:39,960 --> 01:58:42,720 Speaker 1: and guaranteed by police oppression. The PC could not have 2049 01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:45,440 Speaker 1: done this alone. It was the party that received the 2050 01:58:45,520 --> 01:58:49,200 Speaker 1: largest total of private donations in recent years seventy millions 2051 01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:53,000 Speaker 1: dozen thirteen. Well other parties like the PSDB, the Social 2052 01:58:53,080 --> 01:58:57,760 Speaker 1: Democratic Party and PMDB Party of Democratic Movement, the biggest 2053 01:58:57,800 --> 01:59:01,040 Speaker 1: and oldest party in Brazil, mostly center right conservative politicians, 2054 01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:05,800 Speaker 1: only managed forty six million dollars altogether. In two thousand fourteen, 2055 01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:08,760 Speaker 1: the year of Dilma Russo's re election, the PT received 2056 01:59:08,800 --> 01:59:12,440 Speaker 1: forty seven million dollars some contractors facing lawsuits and investigations. 2057 01:59:12,880 --> 01:59:16,240 Speaker 1: While the PMDB got thirty eight million, the ps dB 2058 01:59:16,480 --> 01:59:19,800 Speaker 1: got twenty eight million. This demonstrates the symbiosis between the 2059 01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:22,120 Speaker 1: Workers Party and those who control the flow of capital 2060 01:59:22,200 --> 01:59:26,160 Speaker 1: in the country, a connective tissue of economic and political power. 2061 01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:32,000 Speaker 1: So this is not good. Um And and you you 2062 01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:35,120 Speaker 1: can sort of ask what was the PC really doing here, right, 2063 01:59:35,240 --> 01:59:37,400 Speaker 1: like why okay, why are they doing micro loans? Why 2064 01:59:37,400 --> 01:59:40,200 Speaker 1: are they taking all of this money? Um? And there's 2065 01:59:40,240 --> 01:59:43,000 Speaker 1: a really really good pair of articles from a Brazilian 2066 01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:45,080 Speaker 1: group called Bilitants in the Fog that was published at 2067 01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:48,160 Speaker 1: ill Will called Work and Revolt in Brazil's dead Ends. 2068 01:59:48,280 --> 01:59:51,200 Speaker 1: And I'm going to read from some of it. A 2069 01:59:51,280 --> 01:59:54,000 Speaker 1: bank accounts, a smartphone with access to the internet, and 2070 01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:57,320 Speaker 1: a profile in an app. The means to collect emergency aid, 2071 01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:00,120 Speaker 1: which is emergency aid is um. Part of this is 2072 02:00:00,200 --> 02:00:03,760 Speaker 1: talking about Bosonaro stuff. So I Bolsonaro implements this policy 2073 02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:06,240 Speaker 1: called emergency A which is like it's it's it's kind 2074 02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:07,880 Speaker 1: of the equivalent of like the U S S I 2075 02:00:08,960 --> 02:00:12,680 Speaker 1: like the stimulus checks that we got, but slightly difference. 2076 02:00:14,560 --> 02:00:17,040 Speaker 1: But the means required to collect emergency aid or are 2077 02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:19,240 Speaker 1: the same required to create an account for Uber, a 2078 02:00:19,320 --> 02:00:23,400 Speaker 1: sign that we are facing fundamental parts of this quote 2079 02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:26,480 Speaker 1: new way of working. Years ago, it was already possible 2080 02:00:26,520 --> 02:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to identify the bolsa familiar program, which is that giant 2081 02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:34,200 Speaker 1: um PT like workers Party cash transfer program that we 2082 02:00:34,240 --> 02:00:37,720 Speaker 1: talked about last episode. Chouse dimensions were small in the 2083 02:00:37,760 --> 02:00:42,960 Speaker 1: face of fcial aid program. The the objective of forming 2084 02:00:43,000 --> 02:00:47,360 Speaker 1: a unified workplace more deeply subjugated to capitalist relations. The 2085 02:00:47,520 --> 02:00:51,080 Speaker 1: quote bank ification promoted by the program contributed to the 2086 02:00:51,160 --> 02:00:55,120 Speaker 1: expanding contributed to expanding the reach of micro credit systems, 2087 02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:59,720 Speaker 1: a process of financialization of informality, which was deepened in 2088 02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:02,920 Speaker 1: re some years with the dissemination of increasingly agile and 2089 02:01:03,000 --> 02:01:05,960 Speaker 1: easy payment terminals and electronic payment systems such as picks 2090 02:01:06,400 --> 02:01:09,600 Speaker 1: at tax Free, a quicker and tax free money transfer method. 2091 02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:13,840 Speaker 1: The phenomenon reached unprecedented intensity due to the Emergency A. 2092 02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:18,400 Speaker 1: The state owned bank Taxia Economic and Federal absorbed thirty 2093 02:01:18,440 --> 02:01:20,960 Speaker 1: million customers in ten days, and it was what was 2094 02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:24,480 Speaker 1: possibly the fastest bankification process of history, thus reaching a 2095 02:01:24,560 --> 02:01:28,240 Speaker 1: record profit in two Access to credit is essential for 2096 02:01:28,320 --> 02:01:31,960 Speaker 1: the emergence of a precarious workforce to which capital, costs 2097 02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:34,440 Speaker 1: and risk are transferred. Well, interest rates introduced a new 2098 02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:39,640 Speaker 1: level of productivity to the old. Okay, this is a 2099 02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:42,920 Speaker 1: Portuguese word that oh, boy, via carro, which is like 2100 02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:45,560 Speaker 1: getting by, which is this sort of like it's a 2101 02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:48,120 Speaker 1: sort of slaying term for kind of like doing stuff 2102 02:01:48,120 --> 02:01:51,720 Speaker 1: in the informal economy to like survive. Yeah, which is 2103 02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:54,920 Speaker 1: now directly connected to global financial markets. Thus, the focus 2104 02:01:55,000 --> 02:01:57,720 Speaker 1: of these income policies would be less on expanding consumption 2105 02:01:57,760 --> 02:02:01,320 Speaker 1: capacity for the beneficiaries as in the Kinzian distributive model, 2106 02:02:01,360 --> 02:02:05,240 Speaker 1: and more on expanding their investment capacity, financing the acquisition 2107 02:02:05,280 --> 02:02:08,600 Speaker 1: of work instruments and quote self valuing their human capital. 2108 02:02:09,640 --> 02:02:12,839 Speaker 1: Enthusiasts of such programs claim that financeial the financial cushion 2109 02:02:12,880 --> 02:02:15,520 Speaker 1: provided by basic income, can represent enough stability for people 2110 02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:17,320 Speaker 1: to be able to spend their own savings or other 2111 02:02:17,360 --> 02:02:24,360 Speaker 1: capital starting a business. So, okay, what's happening here, um 2112 02:02:24,440 --> 02:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and the militants of fog is arguing this after the 2113 02:02:26,640 --> 02:02:35,160 Speaker 1: work of a Brazilian academical named Ludmilla Abilio is Okay, 2114 02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:38,120 Speaker 1: what's happening here is is the real subsumption of the 2115 02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:40,200 Speaker 1: formal economy, which okay, so like what what what does 2116 02:02:40,280 --> 02:02:43,040 Speaker 1: that mean? We need to take a step back and 2117 02:02:43,120 --> 02:02:45,400 Speaker 1: do like a little bit more marks. So Marx makes 2118 02:02:45,480 --> 02:02:49,560 Speaker 1: this distinction between what he calls formal and real subsumption. 2119 02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:51,440 Speaker 1: Subsumption is this like the whole philosophy thing I'm not 2120 02:02:51,480 --> 02:02:53,720 Speaker 1: going to get into here, but basically what he's talking 2121 02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:56,200 Speaker 1: about is stuff getting like subsumed by capitalism, right, like 2122 02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:58,160 Speaker 1: becoming a part of the of the sort of capitalist 2123 02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:01,360 Speaker 1: like process and system. And this comes in stages, right, 2124 02:03:01,440 --> 02:03:03,760 Speaker 1: the first foremost subsumption where okay, so say you have 2125 02:03:03,800 --> 02:03:09,240 Speaker 1: a peasant, right, formal subsumption is where the peasant like 2126 02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:11,480 Speaker 1: enters the market for the first time and suddenly be 2127 02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:13,920 Speaker 1: instead of being a peasant, is not like a wage worker, right, 2128 02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:17,520 Speaker 1: And you know, in in in this phase, right, capitalism 2129 02:03:17,560 --> 02:03:19,920 Speaker 1: has entered induced fhere, Right, someone who was a peasant 2130 02:03:20,040 --> 02:03:22,760 Speaker 1: who was like not doing capital stuff before, right, who 2131 02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:25,080 Speaker 1: was going for self production and had like fetal dues 2132 02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:29,840 Speaker 1: and obligations, is now a wage worker. But you know, 2133 02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:31,320 Speaker 1: and then they're selling the goods of the market, but 2134 02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:33,360 Speaker 1: the actual process of production, which is like, okay, so 2135 02:03:33,480 --> 02:03:35,960 Speaker 1: like how a peasant is like how how how you 2136 02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:38,880 Speaker 1: your former peasant new agriculture worker like grows their crops 2137 02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:42,640 Speaker 1: and what crops they grow, and like when they decide 2138 02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:45,080 Speaker 1: to work in In this first stage, this is still 2139 02:03:45,080 --> 02:03:48,200 Speaker 1: the peasant's choice. Um that ends with real subsumption where 2140 02:03:48,600 --> 02:03:51,880 Speaker 1: all control over the workplace that like workers had had 2141 02:03:52,040 --> 02:03:53,800 Speaker 1: is completely destroyed. And you're just you know, okay, this 2142 02:03:53,960 --> 02:03:55,680 Speaker 1: this is this is what like we think of as 2143 02:03:55,720 --> 02:03:57,960 Speaker 1: a regular job, right We're like, okay, the way the 2144 02:03:58,040 --> 02:03:59,440 Speaker 1: job works as your boss sells you want to do 2145 02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:02,920 Speaker 1: I your your entire labor process has been like fully 2146 02:04:02,960 --> 02:04:05,480 Speaker 1: integrated into into into this sort of like broader capitalist 2147 02:04:05,480 --> 02:04:08,400 Speaker 1: production processes that you have no control over. And this 2148 02:04:08,560 --> 02:04:10,360 Speaker 1: is what's been happening in the informal economy of the 2149 02:04:10,400 --> 02:04:12,640 Speaker 1: past few decades in Brazil. It's a real subsumption, right 2150 02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:16,760 Speaker 1: like and and you know what like it stuff that 2151 02:04:16,840 --> 02:04:20,400 Speaker 1: had formerly been you know, like people taking wage labor, 2152 02:04:20,600 --> 02:04:24,280 Speaker 1: but the sort of structure of how people do the 2153 02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:27,040 Speaker 1: jobs that they're doing, right, was still up to them. Uh, 2154 02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:29,800 Speaker 1: this has been ending. And the way it's been ending 2155 02:04:29,920 --> 02:04:33,200 Speaker 1: is through basically the degree of control offered but to 2156 02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:37,000 Speaker 1: employers by apps like uber of like yeah, the control 2157 02:04:37,040 --> 02:04:38,800 Speaker 1: of these apps give you over the informal economy, and 2158 02:04:38,840 --> 02:04:43,000 Speaker 1: the results have been absolutely catastrophic. Um. On the one hand, 2159 02:04:43,040 --> 02:04:45,440 Speaker 1: the sort of limited autonomy that the formal economy like 2160 02:04:45,560 --> 02:04:48,080 Speaker 1: that the informal economy used to give you has been 2161 02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:51,800 Speaker 1: crushed by sort of sorry, has been crushed by algorithmic 2162 02:04:51,880 --> 02:04:54,200 Speaker 1: control from gay economy apps that you know, like track 2163 02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:56,160 Speaker 1: where you are and tell you where you need to 2164 02:04:56,240 --> 02:04:58,560 Speaker 1: go and how how fast you have to get there, 2165 02:04:58,560 --> 02:05:00,200 Speaker 1: and like what lights you have to run in order 2166 02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:04,920 Speaker 1: to get there, and also increasingly, uh, these big workers 2167 02:05:04,960 --> 02:05:07,480 Speaker 1: are being squeezed by a new level of middle management 2168 02:05:07,520 --> 02:05:10,040 Speaker 1: who work basically the same way as like gang like 2169 02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:12,320 Speaker 1: the old gang bosses that control Chinese labor. In return 2170 02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:15,640 Speaker 1: to the twentieth century, where you have these guys who 2171 02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:18,960 Speaker 1: act as like private recruiting companies and foremen for workers 2172 02:05:19,560 --> 02:05:22,120 Speaker 1: who okay, so you go to this place, right, These 2173 02:05:22,160 --> 02:05:23,640 Speaker 1: people are like, okay, I will give you a job, 2174 02:05:23,760 --> 02:05:25,840 Speaker 1: and they negotiate. There are the people who negotiate directly 2175 02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:27,720 Speaker 1: with the company and take money from the company and 2176 02:05:27,760 --> 02:05:30,680 Speaker 1: then use that money to sort of like pay the employer. 2177 02:05:30,920 --> 02:05:34,560 Speaker 1: And this this you know, this sucks, right because on 2178 02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:36,840 Speaker 1: the one hands, you have all of the bad parts 2179 02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:38,880 Speaker 1: of a regular job, which there's a guy who tells 2180 02:05:38,920 --> 02:05:40,600 Speaker 1: you what to do, and if you don't do what 2181 02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:43,240 Speaker 1: he tells you, like, you get fired. And then you 2182 02:05:43,320 --> 02:05:45,360 Speaker 1: have all the bad parts of an informal sector job, 2183 02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:47,600 Speaker 1: which is that you don't have any legal protections that 2184 02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:51,240 Speaker 1: like workers with formal contracts have. And you know, the 2185 02:05:51,440 --> 02:05:53,640 Speaker 1: the the the effect of this has been to create 2186 02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:59,200 Speaker 1: super hell for like, vast, vast swaths of the Brazilian 2187 02:05:59,280 --> 02:06:05,040 Speaker 1: working class. And this has been a just unbelievably catastrophic 2188 02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:11,240 Speaker 1: sort of disaster for for Brazilian politics. But okay, you 2189 02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:13,880 Speaker 1: know what else is creating super hell for the Brazilian 2190 02:06:13,920 --> 02:06:18,600 Speaker 1: working class? I mean not the products and services that 2191 02:06:18,640 --> 02:06:25,800 Speaker 1: support this podcasting the American working class now now yeah, okay, 2192 02:06:25,880 --> 02:06:31,760 Speaker 1: here's sucking ads. Ah, we're back. Wow. I for one 2193 02:06:32,280 --> 02:06:36,800 Speaker 1: think everything's gonna be fine. The fact that Lula won 2194 02:06:36,880 --> 02:06:41,680 Speaker 1: this resounding victory over j R. Bolsonaro by by nearly 2195 02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:44,640 Speaker 1: a whole percentage point is going to mean none of 2196 02:06:44,680 --> 02:06:48,520 Speaker 1: these problems that you're talking about. Are everything's again yea, nope? 2197 02:06:49,240 --> 02:06:52,800 Speaker 1: And you know, okay, so, speaking speaking of reasons why 2198 02:06:52,840 --> 02:06:55,200 Speaker 1: this will not be a problem. Again the sort of 2199 02:06:55,280 --> 02:06:58,440 Speaker 1: like financialization bullshit. This this this doesn't just like stick 2200 02:06:58,600 --> 02:07:01,000 Speaker 1: in sort of labor process like this stuff spreads to 2201 02:07:01,120 --> 02:07:03,760 Speaker 1: the like to social movements as well, which are in 2202 02:07:03,800 --> 02:07:06,360 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, like very old and powerful Brazilian 2203 02:07:06,360 --> 02:07:09,480 Speaker 1: social movements are reduced to these sort of like state 2204 02:07:09,520 --> 02:07:12,720 Speaker 1: back financialized husks of them form ourselves where like you know, 2205 02:07:13,240 --> 02:07:15,080 Speaker 1: you have like you have social movements that are literally 2206 02:07:15,160 --> 02:07:18,800 Speaker 1: like issuing bonds to like fund their their members businesses. 2207 02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:21,880 Speaker 1: You have social movements that are like, okay, if if 2208 02:07:21,920 --> 02:07:24,920 Speaker 1: you show up to assemblies, you can like earn points 2209 02:07:25,120 --> 02:07:26,840 Speaker 1: so that you can get access to like be put 2210 02:07:26,880 --> 02:07:29,040 Speaker 1: on a waiting list for like a government rent stabilized 2211 02:07:29,040 --> 02:07:32,200 Speaker 1: department or something like it is a ship show. And 2212 02:07:32,360 --> 02:07:34,520 Speaker 1: and this whole process sort of leads to the hollowing 2213 02:07:34,520 --> 02:07:37,440 Speaker 1: out of the Brazilian left. And you know, and and 2214 02:07:37,600 --> 02:07:39,960 Speaker 1: and as as as as the left is sort of 2215 02:07:40,120 --> 02:07:44,200 Speaker 1: like being sort of like torn apart from the inside out, 2216 02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:46,840 Speaker 1: and and as you get into sort of like two 2217 02:07:47,160 --> 02:07:49,240 Speaker 1: eleven and twelve dozen thirteen is the afrezilian E comonomy 2218 02:07:49,240 --> 02:07:53,720 Speaker 1: begins to slow. You get Brazil's version of the sort 2219 02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:57,600 Speaker 1: of like movement of the squares like two thirteen uprisings, 2220 02:07:58,560 --> 02:08:01,840 Speaker 1: which is going to be waged against a hostile all okay, 2221 02:08:01,920 --> 02:08:06,440 Speaker 1: a pretty hostile PT governments. Like there there's a sort 2222 02:08:06,480 --> 02:08:08,840 Speaker 1: of public show by delmar roussoft like, yeah, I know, 2223 02:08:08,920 --> 02:08:12,320 Speaker 1: I support the protests when they're not violent, and we're 2224 02:08:12,320 --> 02:08:16,320 Speaker 1: gonna do stuff. But okay, this goes badly very quickly. 2225 02:08:16,440 --> 02:08:19,800 Speaker 1: So these protests start over these like raises and public 2226 02:08:19,840 --> 02:08:21,640 Speaker 1: trends and in the cost of public transportation, like the 2227 02:08:22,080 --> 02:08:25,680 Speaker 1: fair cost raises in a bunch of cities, and very 2228 02:08:25,840 --> 02:08:29,280 Speaker 1: quickly there are like three million people in the street. Um. 2229 02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:34,480 Speaker 1: The sort of conventional narrative about what happened here is 2230 02:08:34,680 --> 02:08:39,640 Speaker 1: that so the protests started off leftists, right, but then 2231 02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:42,440 Speaker 1: the leftists get run out as as the protest sort 2232 02:08:42,440 --> 02:08:44,560 Speaker 1: of keep going by these sort of like foe a 2233 02:08:44,680 --> 02:08:48,360 Speaker 1: political like conservative nationalists that like take them over and 2234 02:08:48,560 --> 02:08:51,200 Speaker 1: turn them from this sort of like leftist call for 2235 02:08:51,320 --> 02:08:53,800 Speaker 1: like a more egalitarian society and for like the right 2236 02:08:53,840 --> 02:08:56,440 Speaker 1: to the city and like stopping evictions and stuff like 2237 02:08:56,480 --> 02:08:59,560 Speaker 1: that to this sort of like anti corruption crusade against PT. 2238 02:08:59,840 --> 02:09:01,840 Speaker 1: And it's the PT against the LaRussa and against sort 2239 02:09:01,840 --> 02:09:05,200 Speaker 1: of like the left itself and okay, this is true, 2240 02:09:05,720 --> 02:09:08,880 Speaker 1: like as far as it goes, UM, we'll be talking 2241 02:09:08,960 --> 02:09:13,400 Speaker 1: more about the impeachment campaign like next episode. But there's 2242 02:09:13,440 --> 02:09:16,280 Speaker 1: more going on here. And the more going on here 2243 02:09:16,560 --> 02:09:19,120 Speaker 1: is that she isn't thirteen. There are massive protests, like 2244 02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:23,000 Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand people, um protest a Confederation Cup, which 2245 02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:25,840 Speaker 1: is which is like the soccer tournament hosted by like 2246 02:09:25,920 --> 02:09:27,920 Speaker 1: that that that's present, Like it's one of the things 2247 02:09:27,960 --> 02:09:30,000 Speaker 1: that precedes the World Cup. I don't know. I'm not 2248 02:09:30,080 --> 02:09:34,360 Speaker 1: a soccer nowher, but yeah, and there's the massive proaests 2249 02:09:34,360 --> 02:09:37,520 Speaker 1: against them, and they are just unbelievably brutally suppressed, Like 2250 02:09:37,640 --> 02:09:42,520 Speaker 1: fifty thousand cops are sent out to like stop this 2251 02:09:42,600 --> 02:09:47,080 Speaker 1: ship and they beat the absolute ship out of everyone. 2252 02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:50,800 Speaker 1: And to understand why these movements were crushed and how 2253 02:09:50,840 --> 02:09:52,120 Speaker 1: the right was able to take power, we need to 2254 02:09:52,120 --> 02:09:56,000 Speaker 1: talk about the Brazilian police. So I think you know 2255 02:09:56,240 --> 02:09:59,440 Speaker 1: most of our listeners you to me like we we 2256 02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:02,560 Speaker 1: are famili you with the American police, right, Like, if 2257 02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:05,120 Speaker 1: you're listening to the show, odds are decently good. You 2258 02:10:05,200 --> 02:10:07,040 Speaker 1: have seen them beat your friends, your bloody polpe. You 2259 02:10:07,120 --> 02:10:09,120 Speaker 1: have seen them taste the parents of children locked into 2260 02:10:09,160 --> 02:10:11,880 Speaker 1: building with the mass shooter. You have seen them slaughter men, women, 2261 02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:13,640 Speaker 1: and children in the street for no other reason than 2262 02:10:13,680 --> 02:10:16,280 Speaker 1: they can because they're a fascist des squad fused with 2263 02:10:16,400 --> 02:10:19,640 Speaker 1: organized crime outfits funded by putting guns to the heads 2264 02:10:19,640 --> 02:10:22,280 Speaker 1: of the American working class air descendants of slave catchers, 2265 02:10:22,280 --> 02:10:24,440 Speaker 1: working each and every day to keep the American racial 2266 02:10:24,840 --> 02:10:28,120 Speaker 1: hierarchy firmly intact. Okay, we can put it that way. 2267 02:10:28,200 --> 02:10:31,200 Speaker 1: It sounds bad, but I don't know, Like I like 2268 02:10:31,360 --> 02:10:35,920 Speaker 1: Law and Order, so like the TV show, Yeah, you 2269 02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:40,080 Speaker 1: know that they have you've never watched Law and Order, 2270 02:10:40,360 --> 02:10:45,440 Speaker 1: s VU, you're missing out on all of the good 2271 02:10:45,560 --> 02:10:48,120 Speaker 1: law and order. Uh that is that the one with 2272 02:10:48,560 --> 02:10:52,000 Speaker 1: chick And I honestly don't know. There's like forty different 2273 02:10:52,080 --> 02:10:54,560 Speaker 1: Law and Order shows. It's impossible to keep track of them, 2274 02:10:55,880 --> 02:10:58,040 Speaker 1: but there is that. There is that one goth chick 2275 02:10:58,600 --> 02:11:01,440 Speaker 1: that they brought in because our grandparents would think she 2276 02:11:01,560 --> 02:11:05,520 Speaker 1: was hot. Yeah. I think. I think the power of 2277 02:11:05,600 --> 02:11:09,520 Speaker 1: goth chicks to extend the police budgets. Yeah, it's it's 2278 02:11:09,680 --> 02:11:12,560 Speaker 1: it's fun and good and Okay, you know, like we 2279 02:11:12,720 --> 02:11:15,960 Speaker 1: we we know how bad the US police are. Um, 2280 02:11:16,160 --> 02:11:18,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read this from the l A Times quote, 2281 02:11:18,520 --> 02:11:21,840 Speaker 1: Brazilian cops kill at nine times the rate of US 2282 02:11:21,920 --> 02:11:31,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement. Nine times. That's pretty bad. Yeah, you know, 2283 02:11:32,280 --> 02:11:34,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's worth pointing out here that Brazil 2284 02:11:34,200 --> 02:11:36,520 Speaker 1: was the last country in this hemisphere to evolve slavery. 2285 02:11:36,640 --> 02:11:39,640 Speaker 1: Like they abolished it like twenty years after the fucking 2286 02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:43,080 Speaker 1: US did, right, And so you know, when when you're 2287 02:11:43,080 --> 02:11:45,680 Speaker 1: thinking about what the Brazilian police is, take everything you 2288 02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:51,080 Speaker 1: know about the American police and understand that the Brazilian police, right, Okay, 2289 02:11:51,080 --> 02:11:53,280 Speaker 1: So with the American police, right, the murder dial goes 2290 02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:55,680 Speaker 1: up to eleven. With the Brazilian police, that murder dial 2291 02:11:55,760 --> 02:12:00,280 Speaker 1: goes up to And that's where they've pranked it to. Here, 2292 02:12:00,360 --> 02:12:02,880 Speaker 1: here's some crime think. In two thousand fourteen, Brazil's prison 2293 02:12:02,960 --> 02:12:06,640 Speaker 1: population became the third largest in the world, with five 2294 02:12:06,720 --> 02:12:09,680 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy thousand prisoners, just like six hundred something 2295 02:12:09,720 --> 02:12:12,640 Speaker 1: thousand prisoners today, most of whom are black. During the 2296 02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:22,040 Speaker 1: PT administration, this figure increased by six hundred and twenty Yeah, Like, 2297 02:12:22,720 --> 02:12:24,960 Speaker 1: and this this, this is a part of the PT 2298 02:12:25,400 --> 02:12:30,680 Speaker 1: that people really sort of tiptoe around, which is that 2299 02:12:30,920 --> 02:12:37,320 Speaker 1: they preside over like a a regime of mass executions 2300 02:12:37,360 --> 02:12:44,520 Speaker 1: and mass incarceration that is like utterly atrocious and and 2301 02:12:44,760 --> 02:12:47,360 Speaker 1: as an aside here, um okay, so like there are 2302 02:12:47,400 --> 02:12:49,320 Speaker 1: probably some of our listeners whose things that they want 2303 02:12:49,320 --> 02:12:52,600 Speaker 1: to go into electoral politics. And if you are doing this, 2304 02:12:53,000 --> 02:12:56,720 Speaker 1: you have one job, like solely, you have one responsibility, 2305 02:12:56,760 --> 02:12:59,240 Speaker 1: and your job is to fucking annihilate the police. Your 2306 02:12:59,320 --> 02:13:01,400 Speaker 1: job is to just joy them so utterly and completely 2307 02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:03,160 Speaker 1: that their very name is spent as a curse in 2308 02:13:03,200 --> 02:13:05,200 Speaker 1: the street by people who make the sign of cross 2309 02:13:05,240 --> 02:13:07,560 Speaker 1: for protection every time they think about them. Like by 2310 02:13:07,600 --> 02:13:09,400 Speaker 1: the end of your first term, these people need to 2311 02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:12,360 Speaker 1: be living in fucking hovels in the woods without access 2312 02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:13,960 Speaker 1: to a weapon that even as deadly as at two 2313 02:13:14,040 --> 02:13:16,000 Speaker 1: by four, And every time they attempt to enter a town, 2314 02:13:16,280 --> 02:13:18,680 Speaker 1: people need to be like chasing them and throwing rocks 2315 02:13:18,720 --> 02:13:21,240 Speaker 1: at them. And if you do not do this, you 2316 02:13:21,320 --> 02:13:24,120 Speaker 1: will live like Lula has to see literally everything you 2317 02:13:24,200 --> 02:13:26,120 Speaker 1: have ever done crumbled beneath the way to way fascism 2318 02:13:26,200 --> 02:13:29,200 Speaker 1: that is too terrible to imagine, and you will also 2319 02:13:29,320 --> 02:13:33,000 Speaker 1: experience in your lifetime. And instead of doing this, the 2320 02:13:33,080 --> 02:13:35,200 Speaker 1: PT is like, fuck it, no, We're going to use 2321 02:13:35,240 --> 02:13:38,360 Speaker 1: the police to stamp up protest against the mega events 2322 02:13:38,440 --> 02:13:41,680 Speaker 1: that they're they're putting on. The police repression around the 2323 02:13:41,760 --> 02:13:45,360 Speaker 1: World Cup is like arguably worse than the stuff for 2324 02:13:45,400 --> 02:13:48,600 Speaker 1: the Confederation Cup. In order to prepare for the World Cup. 2325 02:13:48,960 --> 02:13:51,480 Speaker 1: The PT stage is just like massive social cleansing campaign. 2326 02:13:51,520 --> 02:13:53,600 Speaker 1: We talked about this in our sports episode. Like they 2327 02:13:54,720 --> 02:13:57,680 Speaker 1: they carry out mass evictions against both like regular people 2328 02:13:57,760 --> 02:13:59,960 Speaker 1: and also against like like there's there's a bunch of 2329 02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:01,240 Speaker 1: sort of left is and also sort of just like 2330 02:14:01,240 --> 02:14:03,800 Speaker 1: regular people who squat in Brazil right, Like up a 2331 02:14:03,880 --> 02:14:06,040 Speaker 1: huge part of the social movements have been about seizing 2332 02:14:06,080 --> 02:14:09,080 Speaker 1: property and building like building stuff on its seasoning, evanded 2333 02:14:09,120 --> 02:14:11,200 Speaker 1: buildings and yeah, this stuff all gets victs that can 2334 02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:15,160 Speaker 1: be replaced the World Cup businesses. It's you know, like 2335 02:14:15,280 --> 02:14:17,480 Speaker 1: what what is happening here is it's like all the 2336 02:14:17,560 --> 02:14:20,800 Speaker 1: violence gentrification. But in the span of like a year, right, 2337 02:14:21,040 --> 02:14:24,760 Speaker 1: the pag are literally rolling German tanks to the favelas 2338 02:14:25,200 --> 02:14:27,560 Speaker 1: because like, you know, subtlety is something that happens to 2339 02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:30,640 Speaker 1: other people, not like to reality. And you know, as 2340 02:14:30,640 --> 02:14:32,879 Speaker 1: we talked about before, they're putting them under literally military 2341 02:14:32,960 --> 02:14:36,000 Speaker 1: occupation with colonial troops who were like fighting in Haiti. 2342 02:14:36,240 --> 02:14:40,800 Speaker 1: Right evict two hundred and fifty thousand people for this 2343 02:14:40,920 --> 02:14:43,920 Speaker 1: fucking tournament. Um here, here's some other ship they did. 2344 02:14:44,120 --> 02:14:46,760 Speaker 1: This is from a series of pieces by Brazilian anarchist 2345 02:14:46,800 --> 02:14:51,360 Speaker 1: group called Fictional Faction. In twelve, the federal government and 2346 02:14:51,440 --> 02:14:54,120 Speaker 1: FIFA signed the General Law of the World Cup to 2347 02:14:54,280 --> 02:14:56,920 Speaker 1: ensure that the country would quote uphold FIFA standards of 2348 02:14:57,040 --> 02:15:00,400 Speaker 1: organization during the two thirteen Confederation Cup and the two 2349 02:15:00,400 --> 02:15:05,560 Speaker 1: dozen fourteen World Cup. This agreement constituted an enormous legal 2350 02:15:05,600 --> 02:15:08,720 Speaker 1: offense to the Brazilian people, entailing the suspension of mode 2351 02:15:08,760 --> 02:15:11,680 Speaker 1: of many constitutional rights and norms that are already precarious 2352 02:15:11,760 --> 02:15:14,880 Speaker 1: for most. For example, a court established to rule within 2353 02:15:15,000 --> 02:15:17,600 Speaker 1: fourty eight hours on strikes that occurred within the World Cup. 2354 02:15:18,280 --> 02:15:20,960 Speaker 1: Workers lost the right to strike or fight for improvements, 2355 02:15:20,960 --> 02:15:24,760 Speaker 1: while FIFA avoided paying taxes on businesses within Brazilian territory. 2356 02:15:25,600 --> 02:15:29,160 Speaker 1: A special Secretary to public security for great events was created, 2357 02:15:29,520 --> 02:15:32,640 Speaker 1: breaking the laws stipulating that justice may not have special 2358 02:15:32,680 --> 02:15:37,000 Speaker 1: sponsors or clients you demand priority. The privatization of public 2359 02:15:37,040 --> 02:15:40,040 Speaker 1: space was legitimized by the creation of exclusive streets for 2360 02:15:40,080 --> 02:15:44,040 Speaker 1: FIFA and as partners in which even local businesses were 2361 02:15:44,080 --> 02:15:46,600 Speaker 1: required to keep your doors closed within the exclusion zone 2362 02:15:46,600 --> 02:15:50,720 Speaker 1: around the stadium. The laws allowed FIFA tag intervened directly 2363 02:15:50,800 --> 02:15:53,200 Speaker 1: in the market without the oversight of the state. FIFA 2364 02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:56,160 Speaker 1: was able to stipulate the price to charge for tickets, 2365 02:15:56,200 --> 02:15:58,959 Speaker 1: suspending the usual half price for students and any application 2366 02:15:59,000 --> 02:16:03,360 Speaker 1: of consumer protection out. In addition, more than twenty thou 2367 02:16:03,560 --> 02:16:06,520 Speaker 1: people were allowed to work as unregulated volunteers during the 2368 02:16:06,560 --> 02:16:10,280 Speaker 1: World Cup. These volunteers did not receive the protections of 2369 02:16:10,320 --> 02:16:15,080 Speaker 1: basic labor rights and operated outside of constitutional norms in 2370 02:16:15,120 --> 02:16:19,600 Speaker 1: a situation in situations analogous to slavery. According to Brazilian law, 2371 02:16:19,800 --> 02:16:22,560 Speaker 1: these exceptions to safety and labor the Labor and City 2372 02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:24,720 Speaker 1: law are supposed to be limited to volunteer work for 2373 02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:29,440 Speaker 1: nonprofit institutions that have a quote civic, cultural, education, recreational 2374 02:16:29,520 --> 02:16:34,680 Speaker 1: and social assistance purposes, which hardly described FIFA. The state 2375 02:16:34,800 --> 02:16:38,080 Speaker 1: even overlooked the use of child labor and activities related 2376 02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:39,959 Speaker 1: to the games, such as the role of ball boy, 2377 02:16:40,040 --> 02:16:42,200 Speaker 1: which had been banned in Brazil since two thousand four. 2378 02:16:43,080 --> 02:16:46,160 Speaker 1: So this goes great um and and the thing, you know, 2379 02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:48,240 Speaker 1: so this happens, he doesn't fourteen under del Marissof. But 2380 02:16:48,280 --> 02:16:51,440 Speaker 1: it's worth noting like this is Lula's project fund the beginning, right, 2381 02:16:51,840 --> 02:16:54,160 Speaker 1: like he he has been fighting to get Brazil the 2382 02:16:54,240 --> 02:16:58,280 Speaker 1: World Cup, like sense sent sense, like the opening for 2383 02:16:58,360 --> 02:17:01,760 Speaker 1: applications to get this World Cup obriginal to happen. And 2384 02:17:02,520 --> 02:17:05,240 Speaker 1: what you know, this, this, this campaign to get the 2385 02:17:05,280 --> 02:17:08,840 Speaker 1: World Cup takes the form of a literally all out 2386 02:17:08,920 --> 02:17:12,920 Speaker 1: war against leftist protesters, squatters, workers, people living in favelas, 2387 02:17:12,920 --> 02:17:14,720 Speaker 1: people who are literally all those at the same time. 2388 02:17:15,320 --> 02:17:17,160 Speaker 1: Who are you know, supposed to be the PT space 2389 02:17:17,720 --> 02:17:21,039 Speaker 1: And this is what the PT spends literally the rest 2390 02:17:21,120 --> 02:17:24,800 Speaker 1: of its time and power doing, right, like Dilma Roussef 2391 02:17:24,840 --> 02:17:28,960 Speaker 1: implements much of mousterity measures like this, the spending police 2392 02:17:29,000 --> 02:17:31,240 Speaker 1: powers like this is the ship that the PT is doing, 2393 02:17:31,400 --> 02:17:34,440 Speaker 1: like literally as the Grim Reaper was coming to their door, 2394 02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:39,360 Speaker 1: like two months before delmar Roussef is impeached, she passed 2395 02:17:39,400 --> 02:17:42,359 Speaker 1: a pair of a pair of anti terrorism laws targeted 2396 02:17:42,360 --> 02:17:46,520 Speaker 1: at protesters. And Okay, we're gonna we'll go into the 2397 02:17:46,560 --> 02:17:49,320 Speaker 1: impeachment next episode, but I want to close on this 2398 02:17:51,240 --> 02:17:54,400 Speaker 1: was preventing this from happening, right, preventing the Party of 2399 02:17:54,480 --> 02:17:59,640 Speaker 1: workers from fucking rolling tanks through the streets in in, in, in, 2400 02:17:59,800 --> 02:18:03,920 Speaker 1: in fucking working class neighborhoods, like this is the actual 2401 02:18:04,080 --> 02:18:06,640 Speaker 1: sort of beating of of and this is this is 2402 02:18:06,680 --> 02:18:09,000 Speaker 1: the actual sort of principal politics of anti capitalism like that. 2403 02:18:09,120 --> 02:18:11,200 Speaker 1: This this is why there is a sort of rigid 2404 02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:14,119 Speaker 1: anarchist opposition to the state. Right. This isn't just ideological purity, 2405 02:18:14,680 --> 02:18:16,760 Speaker 1: is the concrete knowledge that any other path is death, 2406 02:18:16,800 --> 02:18:19,680 Speaker 1: because we literally cannot continue to do as the PT 2407 02:18:19,800 --> 02:18:22,279 Speaker 1: has been doing for the past twenty years to produce 2408 02:18:22,320 --> 02:18:25,280 Speaker 1: her own grave diggers. Literally, the ecosystems we draw our 2409 02:18:25,360 --> 02:18:27,800 Speaker 1: life from will not survive if we keep doing this. 2410 02:18:27,920 --> 02:18:29,560 Speaker 1: It does not matter how many people you live you 2411 02:18:29,640 --> 02:18:32,240 Speaker 1: lift out of poverty. If you do not actually destroy 2412 02:18:32,320 --> 02:18:36,080 Speaker 1: the class system, capitalism and fascism will force them back 2413 02:18:36,120 --> 02:18:37,920 Speaker 1: into poverty. All of the poverty, like almost all the 2414 02:18:37,959 --> 02:18:40,400 Speaker 1: poverty games that Lula gained during this entire time and 2415 02:18:40,440 --> 02:18:43,400 Speaker 1: officers were destroyed in four years of will scenarrow. Every 2416 02:18:43,480 --> 02:18:45,280 Speaker 1: day that the state is allowed to exist, every day 2417 02:18:45,280 --> 02:18:47,040 Speaker 1: the class system is allowed to exist, it creates a 2418 02:18:47,080 --> 02:18:49,440 Speaker 1: thousand more bull scenarrows. It creates a thousand bol scenarrows 2419 02:18:49,440 --> 02:18:50,920 Speaker 1: and the police, that creates them, of the armies, it 2420 02:18:50,959 --> 02:18:53,080 Speaker 1: creates them in corporations, it creates them on the streets, 2421 02:18:53,480 --> 02:18:56,080 Speaker 1: and they have to be destroyed or this world will 2422 02:18:56,120 --> 02:18:58,640 Speaker 1: fucking burn. And in the next episode we are going 2423 02:18:58,720 --> 02:19:00,720 Speaker 1: to watch a thousand person of pull and aros burned 2424 02:19:00,720 --> 02:19:06,640 Speaker 1: the entire country. And that that is my incredibly angry 2425 02:19:06,800 --> 02:19:13,720 Speaker 1: response to this absolute fucking bullshit. That is the reason, 2426 02:19:14,520 --> 02:19:16,240 Speaker 1: like our are are a lot of the reasons why 2427 02:19:17,560 --> 02:19:24,240 Speaker 1: everything is completely fucked cool. Well, everybody, have a happy 2428 02:19:25,200 --> 02:19:30,320 Speaker 1: start of November, and hopefully Brazil isn't in a state 2429 02:19:30,360 --> 02:19:34,240 Speaker 1: of civil war by the time you listen to this episode. Yeah, 2430 02:19:34,400 --> 02:19:37,520 Speaker 1: I update at the end of the episode. I don't 2431 02:19:37,560 --> 02:19:40,320 Speaker 1: think there's been any chance. Remember, remember, folks, if you 2432 02:19:40,640 --> 02:19:45,680 Speaker 1: somehow take control of the political apparatus in Brazil, dismantled 2433 02:19:45,720 --> 02:19:49,040 Speaker 1: the police in the military, Um, that's that that should be. 2434 02:19:49,240 --> 02:19:51,000 Speaker 1: That should be a lesson for you. I know a 2435 02:19:51,120 --> 02:19:53,200 Speaker 1: lot of you are on the verge of taking power 2436 02:19:53,400 --> 02:19:57,640 Speaker 1: in Brazil, So hopefully hopefully that message will get out. Yeah, 2437 02:19:57,640 --> 02:20:01,080 Speaker 1: and I mean in general, don't fund them, like, don't 2438 02:20:01,120 --> 02:20:03,640 Speaker 1: give them more money, don't spend a bunch of money 2439 02:20:03,680 --> 02:20:07,280 Speaker 1: buying them German tanks, Like, well what do you do? Okay, 2440 02:20:07,560 --> 02:20:10,280 Speaker 1: like why what? Why are we focusing on German tanks? 2441 02:20:10,320 --> 02:20:14,440 Speaker 1: They make fine tanks. Okay, here we have here. Can 2442 02:20:14,480 --> 02:20:16,560 Speaker 1: you name a single good thing a German tank has 2443 02:20:16,600 --> 02:20:21,560 Speaker 1: ever been used for? Yeah, I'm guessing. Yeah, they did 2444 02:20:21,680 --> 02:20:24,600 Speaker 1: some communists, probably, I don't. I don't know. Um, let's 2445 02:20:25,120 --> 02:20:31,160 Speaker 1: live anyway, killed a lot of Englishmen anyway and Canadians. 2446 02:20:47,320 --> 02:20:50,360 Speaker 1: It could happen here. It's it's it could happen here. 2447 02:20:50,480 --> 02:20:54,440 Speaker 1: It's the podcast that's happening right now. Um yeah, it's 2448 02:20:54,520 --> 02:20:56,960 Speaker 1: it's about things that you know about. It's there are 2449 02:20:57,040 --> 02:21:00,880 Speaker 1: our third and final episode about the Brazilian elections. It's me, Chris, 2450 02:21:01,080 --> 02:21:04,120 Speaker 1: It's it's I'm here with James Stout. Hello, Hi, Chris. 2451 02:21:05,400 --> 02:21:08,920 Speaker 1: So we have we have an update on on this situation, 2452 02:21:09,000 --> 02:21:12,240 Speaker 1: which is that j R. Bosonaro Okay, he's still he's still. 2453 02:21:12,360 --> 02:21:16,039 Speaker 1: I don't think has publicly announced defeats, but he apparently 2454 02:21:16,120 --> 02:21:21,000 Speaker 1: told the Supreme Court quote it's over, So he seems 2455 02:21:21,000 --> 02:21:24,040 Speaker 1: to have committed defeat, which has not stopped a bunch 2456 02:21:24,080 --> 02:21:28,200 Speaker 1: of his followers from calling for a military coup. Yeah, 2457 02:21:28,720 --> 02:21:32,680 Speaker 1: from the people I still seem to be blocking roads, right, Yeah, 2458 02:21:35,080 --> 02:21:41,000 Speaker 1: it's happening. I don't know. I yeah, it's it's it's 2459 02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:43,720 Speaker 1: sort of unclear to me to what extent his followers 2460 02:21:43,920 --> 02:21:46,560 Speaker 1: are going to back down. I don't think there's really 2461 02:21:46,680 --> 02:21:49,480 Speaker 1: much chance for a military coup at this point, like 2462 02:21:49,720 --> 02:21:52,080 Speaker 1: they seem to have just lost. I read something earlier 2463 02:21:52,160 --> 02:21:54,920 Speaker 1: about Bolsonaro making plans to like so it's like there's 2464 02:21:54,920 --> 02:21:56,720 Speaker 1: like a like a sash thing you're supposed to hand 2465 02:21:56,760 --> 02:21:59,320 Speaker 1: over to the next president, and he was making plans 2466 02:21:59,400 --> 02:22:01,720 Speaker 1: to not be in the country when Lula took office. 2467 02:22:02,040 --> 02:22:04,840 Speaker 1: I was gonna have his vice president ended over instead, 2468 02:22:05,240 --> 02:22:08,520 Speaker 1: which is like this is like the most whiny baby 2469 02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:12,840 Speaker 1: ship I've ever seen, which is like, god, I want 2470 02:22:13,520 --> 02:22:17,960 Speaker 1: what a loser? Holy fuck, like first as a tragedy, 2471 02:22:18,040 --> 02:22:20,600 Speaker 1: and then as fast and then as fast yea, and 2472 02:22:20,720 --> 02:22:24,840 Speaker 1: continually as fast, like that's that's how the right operates, right, Yeah. 2473 02:22:24,920 --> 02:22:29,480 Speaker 1: I actually almost had that, Like I I actually almost 2474 02:22:29,920 --> 02:22:32,800 Speaker 1: started the Lula episode with that quote, and then I 2475 02:22:32,959 --> 02:22:35,040 Speaker 1: was like, well, his return. I was like that, that's 2476 02:22:35,120 --> 02:22:38,800 Speaker 1: that's too mean to say about Lula, Like it hasn't 2477 02:22:38,840 --> 02:22:43,640 Speaker 1: been first yet, Like yeah, but Bulsonaro is oh boy, Yeah, 2478 02:22:43,760 --> 02:22:45,480 Speaker 1: he's going to go and spend more time with a 2479 02:22:45,560 --> 02:22:50,200 Speaker 1: novel coronavirus. It's withdrawing from politics. You know. I heard 2480 02:22:50,240 --> 02:22:51,640 Speaker 1: that there's a great line in one of the things 2481 02:22:51,720 --> 02:22:54,280 Speaker 1: I was talking about that Milton's in the fog piece 2482 02:22:54,320 --> 02:22:57,560 Speaker 1: from Ilbow yesterday where they they talked about like I 2483 02:22:57,640 --> 02:23:01,160 Speaker 1: forget the exact quote, it was something like but Bolso 2484 02:23:01,240 --> 02:23:04,280 Speaker 1: it wasn't It's not just that Bolsonaro failed the like 2485 02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:07,280 Speaker 1: failed to respond to coronavirus, is that he was a 2486 02:23:07,400 --> 02:23:09,760 Speaker 1: vector for the for coronavirus. And I was like, yeah, 2487 02:23:10,480 --> 02:23:13,880 Speaker 1: this is this is both literally and metaphorically true, Like 2488 02:23:14,360 --> 02:23:20,920 Speaker 1: several of the outbreaks are just from Bolsonaro. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, real, 2489 02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:25,039 Speaker 1: real piece of shit. Um yeah yeah, So today we're 2490 02:23:25,040 --> 02:23:29,440 Speaker 1: gonna talking about the very specific so we we We've 2491 02:23:29,440 --> 02:23:32,640 Speaker 1: been last episode talking about sort of like the the 2492 02:23:32,959 --> 02:23:36,040 Speaker 1: enormous army of grave diggers that the PT had sort 2493 02:23:36,040 --> 02:23:39,320 Speaker 1: of built around them, and this episode is going to 2494 02:23:39,400 --> 02:23:42,000 Speaker 1: be about like how their grave was actually sort of 2495 02:23:42,160 --> 02:23:48,000 Speaker 1: built and then filled in. Um so I talked about 2496 02:23:48,080 --> 02:23:52,320 Speaker 1: in episode one. Um there was in twousd five. I 2497 02:23:52,320 --> 02:23:54,680 Speaker 1: think I might have actually accidentally said six in the 2498 02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:57,039 Speaker 1: original episode, but it dealsn't five. There's just a giant 2499 02:23:57,080 --> 02:24:00,920 Speaker 1: corruption scandal involving the Workers Party that like shakes all 2500 02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:04,680 Speaker 1: up Brazil and basically the the short version of it 2501 02:24:04,800 --> 02:24:06,280 Speaker 1: is that a bunch of senior members of the PC 2502 02:24:06,400 --> 02:24:10,000 Speaker 1: were accused of bribing members of the Central Centrow, who 2503 02:24:10,080 --> 02:24:13,160 Speaker 1: is like Brazil sort of like perennial elite corruption faction, 2504 02:24:13,320 --> 02:24:17,840 Speaker 1: to like buy their votes to get bills passed, which honestly, 2505 02:24:17,959 --> 02:24:20,400 Speaker 1: like I'm okay with this, like that We're gonna talk 2506 02:24:20,400 --> 02:24:22,960 Speaker 1: about some corruption later that like does suck. Uh, This 2507 02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:26,000 Speaker 1: I think is fine, Like I'm I am, I am okay, 2508 02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:28,840 Speaker 1: Like I I'm gonna put this on the record at me, 2509 02:24:29,040 --> 02:24:32,040 Speaker 1: Christopher Wong, I am okay with literally just buying the 2510 02:24:32,160 --> 02:24:35,120 Speaker 1: votes of like weird corrupt right wingers to get them 2511 02:24:35,120 --> 02:24:38,560 Speaker 1: to vote for legislation that's actually good. Like whatever, I 2512 02:24:38,640 --> 02:24:43,920 Speaker 1: don't care about this, like this is bullshit, Like who cares? Um? 2513 02:24:44,160 --> 02:24:50,200 Speaker 1: But that that said, I I okay. So this entire episode, 2514 02:24:52,840 --> 02:24:54,600 Speaker 1: like well look at the first like three quarters episode, 2515 02:24:54,600 --> 02:24:56,080 Speaker 1: this is this is this episode is like a lot 2516 02:24:56,160 --> 02:24:59,920 Speaker 1: about corruption, and before we need to go any for 2517 02:25:00,000 --> 02:25:03,240 Speaker 1: other like we need to talk about like what corruption 2518 02:25:03,360 --> 02:25:06,879 Speaker 1: actually is and about the politics of it. So Okay, 2519 02:25:06,879 --> 02:25:09,320 Speaker 1: I want to say this as someone who lives in Okay. 2520 02:25:09,320 --> 02:25:12,160 Speaker 1: So I think most our listeners understand that Chicago is 2521 02:25:12,200 --> 02:25:14,720 Speaker 1: notoriously corrupt. I didn't grow up in Chicago. I grew 2522 02:25:14,800 --> 02:25:18,280 Speaker 1: up in Chicago's even more corrupt suburbs. Like I I 2523 02:25:18,560 --> 02:25:23,440 Speaker 1: literally watched a mayor sell physically sell city Hall to 2524 02:25:23,520 --> 02:25:28,200 Speaker 1: the highest bidder, Like she actually literally physically sold city 2525 02:25:28,240 --> 02:25:31,440 Speaker 1: Hall like this. This is the kind of ship you 2526 02:25:31,520 --> 02:25:35,120 Speaker 1: get out in the suburbs, Like it is fucking mind boggling, right, 2527 02:25:35,240 --> 02:25:37,760 Speaker 1: like that that that that that wasn't my town, but 2528 02:25:37,920 --> 02:25:41,920 Speaker 1: like I have seen some ship, right And Okay. The 2529 02:25:42,040 --> 02:25:43,920 Speaker 1: thing that the thing I can say about government corruption 2530 02:25:43,959 --> 02:25:45,640 Speaker 1: is that there are two kinds of people in the world. 2531 02:25:45,959 --> 02:25:49,360 Speaker 1: There are people like Chicagoans who understand that every single politician, 2532 02:25:49,680 --> 02:25:52,360 Speaker 1: no matter, like, every single politician whatsoever, is going to 2533 02:25:52,520 --> 02:25:55,440 Speaker 1: Robbie blind because they're all corrupt. And you know, there's 2534 02:25:55,440 --> 02:25:57,520 Speaker 1: a sort of like a more analytical cularreya to this, 2535 02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:00,600 Speaker 1: which is that like corruption, corruption is just a structural 2536 02:26:00,680 --> 02:26:03,400 Speaker 1: tendency of the state, right, It's it's a product of 2537 02:26:03,560 --> 02:26:05,920 Speaker 1: state officials like having access to the state's enormous supply 2538 02:26:05,959 --> 02:26:08,200 Speaker 1: of resources. It's a product of the kind of structural 2539 02:26:08,280 --> 02:26:11,440 Speaker 1: incentives that like being in a state produces, and it's 2540 02:26:11,480 --> 02:26:13,120 Speaker 1: a it's a product of the fact of the state, 2541 02:26:13,120 --> 02:26:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, acquires resources to violence and you know. Okay, 2542 02:26:17,200 --> 02:26:20,000 Speaker 1: so there's people who understand this on various levels, right, 2543 02:26:20,480 --> 02:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Like I mean, this is a genuinely thing about of cocos, 2544 02:26:23,120 --> 02:26:26,040 Speaker 1: Like everyone gets it, Like you don't have to convince people. 2545 02:26:26,600 --> 02:26:28,320 Speaker 1: And then there's a bunch of people like like the 2546 02:26:28,440 --> 02:26:31,200 Speaker 1: other category of people and people who genuinely think that 2547 02:26:31,360 --> 02:26:34,120 Speaker 1: like politics is about people debating political principles and that 2548 02:26:34,240 --> 02:26:36,560 Speaker 1: like if we just make slightly better arguments and like 2549 02:26:36,640 --> 02:26:39,440 Speaker 1: have slightly better land use policies of politicians who literally 2550 02:26:39,520 --> 02:26:42,760 Speaker 1: spends all day taking bribes and developers or like somehow 2551 02:26:42,879 --> 02:26:45,960 Speaker 1: end homelessness or something or that like somehow like like 2552 02:26:46,480 --> 02:26:48,880 Speaker 1: like a corruption a matter of political princess. Like no, no, 2553 02:26:49,200 --> 02:26:51,360 Speaker 1: they're all that they're all doing this to you, Like 2554 02:26:51,959 --> 02:26:55,879 Speaker 1: you guys, you kind of understand that. Yeah, It's it's 2555 02:26:56,040 --> 02:26:58,680 Speaker 1: very funny. And it's like we don't get enough credit 2556 02:26:58,720 --> 02:27:01,640 Speaker 1: for our cruption in San Diego, like right, yeah, and 2557 02:27:01,840 --> 02:27:08,000 Speaker 1: run by the Sea as it's very funny to see 2558 02:27:08,040 --> 02:27:10,680 Speaker 1: people being like, oh, there can't be corruption because identity 2559 02:27:10,720 --> 02:27:15,160 Speaker 1: politics this or because not Donald Trump. Right then, like 2560 02:27:15,360 --> 02:27:18,320 Speaker 1: this is the nature of the state, especially the state 2561 02:27:18,400 --> 02:27:21,480 Speaker 1: under capitalism, especially stated a capitalism in the United States. 2562 02:27:22,080 --> 02:27:24,200 Speaker 1: Is that like you don't get funk all unless you 2563 02:27:24,280 --> 02:27:28,199 Speaker 1: pay for it. Yeah, although I will say this corruption 2564 02:27:28,240 --> 02:27:30,800 Speaker 1: as a policy of the state is essentially trans ideological. 2565 02:27:30,879 --> 02:27:33,080 Speaker 1: Like the reddest communist, the brownest fascist, and the most 2566 02:27:33,160 --> 02:27:35,560 Speaker 1: bleeding heart red, white and blue capitalists all take bribes, 2567 02:27:35,720 --> 02:27:37,360 Speaker 1: they all give contracts with their family, and they all 2568 02:27:37,360 --> 02:27:39,840 Speaker 1: steal money from the government. Like you can tell this 2569 02:27:40,000 --> 02:27:42,360 Speaker 1: by the fact that the US is literally like the 2570 02:27:42,520 --> 02:27:45,039 Speaker 1: US just made it legal to give like they made 2571 02:27:45,040 --> 02:27:46,880 Speaker 1: it legal for a corporation to give money to a 2572 02:27:46,920 --> 02:27:48,600 Speaker 1: candidate in order to have the vote a certain way. 2573 02:27:48,600 --> 02:27:52,160 Speaker 1: This is legal. Nazi Germany corrupt as ship, the USS 2574 02:27:52,160 --> 02:27:55,040 Speaker 1: are famously insanely corrupt like this. This is not this 2575 02:27:55,200 --> 02:27:57,680 Speaker 1: is not actually a product of ideology. It's it's it's 2576 02:27:57,680 --> 02:27:59,480 Speaker 1: it's it's just it's just a sort of structural like 2577 02:28:00,040 --> 02:28:01,640 Speaker 1: tendency of the state. And it doesn't meant like the 2578 02:28:01,680 --> 02:28:04,480 Speaker 1: military kaderships are corrupt like the fun like the like 2579 02:28:04,640 --> 02:28:06,840 Speaker 1: the parliamentic democracies are corrupted, like this is this is 2580 02:28:06,879 --> 02:28:08,600 Speaker 1: just this is just like how the state works, right, 2581 02:28:09,240 --> 02:28:14,240 Speaker 1: um and and the like. So political corruption genuinely isn't 2582 02:28:14,440 --> 02:28:17,040 Speaker 1: that interesting, right, Like the actual politics of it, like 2583 02:28:17,200 --> 02:28:19,920 Speaker 1: it's not that interesting. Like it's just people just corrupt, right, 2584 02:28:20,480 --> 02:28:23,000 Speaker 1: What is interesting is anti corruption politics. And we need 2585 02:28:23,040 --> 02:28:25,240 Speaker 1: to get this out of the way immediately. It is 2586 02:28:25,280 --> 02:28:29,080 Speaker 1: simultaneously true that like almost no one openly supports corruption, 2587 02:28:29,240 --> 02:28:32,480 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's it's like almost impossible to find 2588 02:28:32,600 --> 02:28:34,640 Speaker 1: anyone who will come out on the record and say 2589 02:28:34,640 --> 02:28:37,840 Speaker 1: they're pro corruption, like like you can't do it right, 2590 02:28:37,920 --> 02:28:39,840 Speaker 1: And it's and it's also true that like every single 2591 02:28:39,879 --> 02:28:41,800 Speaker 1: one of these people on the across the entire political 2592 02:28:41,840 --> 02:28:45,400 Speaker 1: spectrum is corrupt and you know, and and and and 2593 02:28:45,520 --> 02:28:48,960 Speaker 1: the you know and and no, no politician is actually 2594 02:28:49,000 --> 02:28:51,199 Speaker 1: anti corruption. This. This is something that's very very important 2595 02:28:51,200 --> 02:28:53,880 Speaker 1: to understand. None of these people are sucking anti corruption this. 2596 02:28:54,040 --> 02:28:55,560 Speaker 1: This is sort of this is one of lessons of Chicago, 2597 02:28:55,600 --> 02:28:57,039 Speaker 1: which is that all of the sort of anti corruption 2598 02:28:57,080 --> 02:28:59,880 Speaker 1: crusaders are like just as corrupt as people they're replacing. 2599 02:29:00,720 --> 02:29:02,800 Speaker 1: But this is part of the way. Like, uh, I 2600 02:29:02,840 --> 02:29:05,880 Speaker 1: don't want to go to extreme marcusa, but like the 2601 02:29:06,320 --> 02:29:08,600 Speaker 1: like this idea, this false choice, right the corruption and 2602 02:29:08,600 --> 02:29:12,440 Speaker 1: in itself creates a means for another person who is 2603 02:29:12,480 --> 02:29:15,359 Speaker 1: equally corrupt to enter simply by claiming to be anti corrupt, 2604 02:29:15,560 --> 02:29:17,879 Speaker 1: right like, and then this weekend just kind of continually 2605 02:29:17,959 --> 02:29:19,760 Speaker 1: wad up each other and claiming to be different and 2606 02:29:19,840 --> 02:29:23,080 Speaker 1: doing the same ship and people will embrace his fucking 2607 02:29:23,160 --> 02:29:25,520 Speaker 1: false choice. Yeah, and you know we're gonna see this 2608 02:29:25,520 --> 02:29:26,960 Speaker 1: in this story later on, I will give you a 2609 02:29:27,040 --> 02:29:29,400 Speaker 1: preview of where this is going. So Sergio Morrow, who 2610 02:29:29,520 --> 02:29:32,000 Speaker 1: is this judge who's like like Brazil's like great anti 2611 02:29:32,040 --> 02:29:34,880 Speaker 1: corruption crusader, uh, turns out to have been funding is 2612 02:29:34,959 --> 02:29:38,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote anti corruption investigations by selling illegally selling information 2613 02:29:38,400 --> 02:29:40,440 Speaker 1: to the FBI and then getting paid and find uh 2614 02:29:40,800 --> 02:29:43,960 Speaker 1: find money collected by the US and successful corruption prosecutions. 2615 02:29:44,520 --> 02:29:48,680 Speaker 1: He also is going to like very blatantly and pretty 2616 02:29:48,720 --> 02:29:53,840 Speaker 1: openly take a job as the as Brazil's Justice minister 2617 02:29:54,560 --> 02:30:00,920 Speaker 1: in exchange for putting Bolton's political opponents in prison. Magnificent. Okay, Yeah, 2618 02:30:01,000 --> 02:30:05,520 Speaker 1: and and you know, so okay, what's the thing that's 2619 02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:08,040 Speaker 1: important about this, right is that anti corruption is not 2620 02:30:08,240 --> 02:30:10,720 Speaker 1: a real politics, right, Like it's not it's not an 2621 02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:13,880 Speaker 1: actual real sense of political political positions. Right. What it 2622 02:30:14,160 --> 02:30:16,600 Speaker 1: is is the set of politics you can rooms with. 2623 02:30:17,000 --> 02:30:19,000 Speaker 1: But it turns out is really really good at conning 2624 02:30:19,080 --> 02:30:22,680 Speaker 1: routs because people really fucking hate corruption, and and that 2625 02:30:22,800 --> 02:30:24,520 Speaker 1: the thing, the thing, the thing that being like an 2626 02:30:24,959 --> 02:30:27,600 Speaker 1: an anti corruption quote unquote candidate does is it lets 2627 02:30:27,680 --> 02:30:31,160 Speaker 1: anyone like appear to be the sort of like populous 2628 02:30:31,240 --> 02:30:33,440 Speaker 1: champion of the people against the corrupt elite. And this 2629 02:30:33,600 --> 02:30:35,840 Speaker 1: is really useful to the right into sort of mean, 2630 02:30:35,879 --> 02:30:37,360 Speaker 1: not just to the rime, it's really useful to sort 2631 02:30:37,400 --> 02:30:40,680 Speaker 1: of like bourgeois like capitalist politicians in general, because there 2632 02:30:40,720 --> 02:30:42,119 Speaker 1: are a lot of times where in order to sort 2633 02:30:42,120 --> 02:30:44,840 Speaker 1: of protect their interests, you know, or protect the interests 2634 02:30:44,840 --> 02:30:47,080 Speaker 1: of like their specific faction of the ruling class, they 2635 02:30:47,120 --> 02:30:48,600 Speaker 1: need to win an election, and they need to win 2636 02:30:48,640 --> 02:30:50,040 Speaker 1: the sort of hearts of mines of the people who 2637 02:30:50,080 --> 02:30:52,920 Speaker 1: see that the world sucks and like reflectively hate quote 2638 02:30:53,000 --> 02:30:55,280 Speaker 1: unquote the establishment because they know they're getting screwed. And 2639 02:30:55,320 --> 02:30:57,960 Speaker 1: the easiest way to sort of con these people is 2640 02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:01,920 Speaker 1: to take up the politics of antique ruption it's it's, it's, it's, it's. It's. 2641 02:31:01,920 --> 02:31:05,959 Speaker 1: It's like the the absolute picture perfect neoliberal politics, right, 2642 02:31:06,000 --> 02:31:09,680 Speaker 1: Like Rudy Giuliani, for example, Um, god is start going 2643 02:31:09,760 --> 02:31:12,720 Speaker 1: after the mob in New York and you know, and 2644 02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:14,800 Speaker 1: what what either, right? Really because he goes after the 2645 02:31:14,800 --> 02:31:16,680 Speaker 1: mob is the interruption guy and then he replaces them 2646 02:31:16,720 --> 02:31:21,480 Speaker 1: with like even more efficient and extractive neoliberal bureacratic parasites. Yeah, 2647 02:31:21,840 --> 02:31:24,800 Speaker 1: and it's perfect, like yeah, in terms of near liiberalism, right, 2648 02:31:24,840 --> 02:31:28,480 Speaker 1: in terms of completely avoiding a class analysis, because you 2649 02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:31,080 Speaker 1: can you can appeal to people who are genuinely oppressed 2650 02:31:31,120 --> 02:31:33,240 Speaker 1: and marginalized by the system, right by saying I'll go 2651 02:31:33,320 --> 02:31:36,120 Speaker 1: against this corrupt system which is oppressing in marginalized and you, 2652 02:31:36,160 --> 02:31:38,039 Speaker 1: but also to the bourgeois because you can say, oh, 2653 02:31:38,520 --> 02:31:40,920 Speaker 1: the reason you're sucking business is not a successful as 2654 02:31:40,920 --> 02:31:42,840 Speaker 1: the one is corruption. So to just vote for me 2655 02:31:43,000 --> 02:31:45,160 Speaker 1: and we'll sort that out and you can continue exploiting 2656 02:31:45,200 --> 02:31:48,280 Speaker 1: the workers who am also appealing to. Yeah, and and 2657 02:31:48,640 --> 02:31:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, like Giuliani is specifically like he is his 2658 02:31:52,480 --> 02:31:55,240 Speaker 1: name is just literally a punchline now, right, Like it's 2659 02:31:55,280 --> 02:31:57,680 Speaker 1: it's not it's not even worth talking about him. Fucking 2660 02:31:58,120 --> 02:32:00,760 Speaker 1: like trumping on a cigar doing an ad first a 2661 02:32:00,800 --> 02:32:03,880 Speaker 1: guard company in the middle melodio right like like but 2662 02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:06,120 Speaker 1: but but you know if they're selling flip flops now, 2663 02:32:06,200 --> 02:32:08,440 Speaker 1: isn't that something like that? But but that's the thing, 2664 02:32:08,520 --> 02:32:10,880 Speaker 1: Like the anti corruption stuff was really really good for 2665 02:32:11,000 --> 02:32:15,600 Speaker 1: his career, and you know, this is the poll does 2666 02:32:15,640 --> 02:32:18,039 Speaker 1: anti corruption is the politics at the Brazilian right finally 2667 02:32:18,120 --> 02:32:20,280 Speaker 1: figures out as like the only thing that got out 2668 02:32:20,280 --> 02:32:23,200 Speaker 1: the workers partty drug or not now like insan five, 2669 02:32:23,240 --> 02:32:25,040 Speaker 1: the corruption case brings down a whole bunch of sort 2670 02:32:25,080 --> 02:32:27,879 Speaker 1: of like high profile PT party members, but it doesn't 2671 02:32:27,959 --> 02:32:30,959 Speaker 1: touch Lula himself, who is like he has this rep 2672 02:32:31,160 --> 02:32:32,920 Speaker 1: like he basically similar to Reagan, is just like the 2673 02:32:32,959 --> 02:32:37,480 Speaker 1: teflon president. Everything just bounce off of him. But you know, 2674 02:32:37,640 --> 02:32:40,200 Speaker 1: the Rights and five really thinks that they've got him 2675 02:32:40,959 --> 02:32:43,080 Speaker 1: and they're like, Okay, we're gonna crush him this next election. 2676 02:32:43,120 --> 02:32:45,360 Speaker 1: Everything's gonna go back to normal. And then you know, 2677 02:32:45,560 --> 02:32:48,240 Speaker 1: and it is true that from two compared to two 2678 02:32:48,240 --> 02:32:51,200 Speaker 1: thou too Lula does have less support than two six. 2679 02:32:51,440 --> 02:32:54,600 Speaker 1: He goes from of the vote to a whopping sixty 2680 02:32:54,680 --> 02:33:01,520 Speaker 1: percent of the vote. So okay, so this dude work, right, 2681 02:33:02,240 --> 02:33:04,400 Speaker 1: but the right still sees it like this is the 2682 02:33:04,520 --> 02:33:06,080 Speaker 1: only thing they've been able to come up with. It 2683 02:33:06,160 --> 02:33:09,240 Speaker 1: like actually damages the PT at all. And and she's 2684 02:33:09,240 --> 02:33:11,480 Speaker 1: also in fourteen a judge named Sergio Morrow, who have 2685 02:33:11,560 --> 02:33:13,560 Speaker 1: we've our Morrow? Who again we have given you the 2686 02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:16,000 Speaker 1: spoiler This is like this is one of the most 2687 02:33:16,040 --> 02:33:18,960 Speaker 1: corrupt dudes, and like the history of Brazilian politics. But 2688 02:33:19,640 --> 02:33:22,960 Speaker 1: he he goes after he finds like a different corruption 2689 02:33:23,080 --> 02:33:24,640 Speaker 1: ring to go after that he's not a part of. 2690 02:33:24,800 --> 02:33:26,600 Speaker 1: And and I think it's it's important to understand sort 2691 02:33:26,640 --> 02:33:29,240 Speaker 1: of from the outside of this right that like this 2692 02:33:29,360 --> 02:33:33,960 Speaker 1: anti corruption stuff is essentially like a newer faction or 2693 02:33:34,000 --> 02:33:37,200 Speaker 1: like a slightly different faction of the Brazilian ruling class 2694 02:33:37,280 --> 02:33:40,360 Speaker 1: going after another faction of the Brazilian ruling class. So 2695 02:33:40,720 --> 02:33:44,000 Speaker 1: he finds he starts this thing that it becomes known 2696 02:33:44,040 --> 02:33:48,640 Speaker 1: as Lava Jatto or Operation car Wash UM. And what 2697 02:33:48,760 --> 02:33:52,320 Speaker 1: moral is going after is this little legitimately genuinely enormous 2698 02:33:52,320 --> 02:33:55,000 Speaker 1: corruption ring surrounding Petro Boss, which is brazili state owned 2699 02:33:55,000 --> 02:33:58,440 Speaker 1: oil company UM. And the investigation leads to the arrests 2700 02:33:58,640 --> 02:34:01,600 Speaker 1: of an enormous number of government officials, Like there's like 2701 02:34:01,879 --> 02:34:04,959 Speaker 1: some of the richest people in Brazil go to jail, 2702 02:34:05,280 --> 02:34:09,000 Speaker 1: like and it is true that like like there is 2703 02:34:09,360 --> 02:34:11,280 Speaker 1: an enormous amount of coruption, Like there are billions and 2704 02:34:11,320 --> 02:34:13,160 Speaker 1: billions of dollars that that are being sort of stolen 2705 02:34:13,200 --> 02:34:16,080 Speaker 1: from this oil company right through sort of like contracts 2706 02:34:16,280 --> 02:34:21,600 Speaker 1: and like payoffs and stuff. Um, but we also get 2707 02:34:21,680 --> 02:34:24,560 Speaker 1: to some real like lepers eating people's faces. Party ship 2708 02:34:24,720 --> 02:34:27,360 Speaker 1: here as well, where Okay, so Chils in thirteen deal 2709 02:34:27,400 --> 02:34:30,279 Speaker 1: with russef signs a law that massively expands police powers 2710 02:34:30,320 --> 02:34:34,039 Speaker 1: that includes, in particular, allowing them with no strings attached, 2711 02:34:34,080 --> 02:34:35,680 Speaker 1: to offer plea bargains of people to get that they 2712 02:34:35,680 --> 02:34:39,000 Speaker 1: confess the stuff and like give the cops information they 2713 02:34:39,080 --> 02:34:41,760 Speaker 1: want to hear, which is, like Jenny Winely, really unethical 2714 02:34:41,920 --> 02:34:44,119 Speaker 1: because for a lot of reasons, right, like the whole 2715 02:34:44,120 --> 02:34:46,120 Speaker 1: plea bargaining system is like the reason like one of 2716 02:34:46,160 --> 02:34:48,160 Speaker 1: the reasons the whole USS system is completely sucked up 2717 02:34:48,480 --> 02:34:50,720 Speaker 1: because everyone just fucking please out instead of going to 2718 02:34:50,800 --> 02:34:53,040 Speaker 1: trial because they know they know they're like every everyone 2719 02:34:53,120 --> 02:34:55,080 Speaker 1: is pretty sure they're gonna lose, and so people, you know, 2720 02:34:55,160 --> 02:34:57,440 Speaker 1: people will just pleader ship that they didn't do because 2721 02:34:57,520 --> 02:34:59,480 Speaker 1: they have no chance of winning the case. It's completely 2722 02:34:59,520 --> 02:35:02,080 Speaker 1: fucked up. And den Lar Russo's like, nah, yeah, fuck it, 2723 02:35:02,200 --> 02:35:06,560 Speaker 1: like we're gonna sign this, like you know, and I 2724 02:35:06,800 --> 02:35:09,120 Speaker 1: like I get that, like she she was responding to 2725 02:35:09,240 --> 02:35:10,960 Speaker 1: like the protests, and I get that she thought it 2726 02:35:11,000 --> 02:35:14,200 Speaker 1: would mostly be used against like fucking protesters or some ship. 2727 02:35:14,320 --> 02:35:16,840 Speaker 1: But like, who did you think this was gonna be 2728 02:35:17,000 --> 02:35:21,800 Speaker 1: used against? Yet? Wait? Why, like come on, like seriously, 2729 02:35:26,959 --> 02:35:30,840 Speaker 1: just It's like, it is simultaneously true that there was 2730 02:35:30,879 --> 02:35:35,400 Speaker 1: like an incredibly coordinated, sophisticated like like a joint American 2731 02:35:35,480 --> 02:35:39,520 Speaker 1: Brazilian like intelligence and like just the state operation to 2732 02:35:39,560 --> 02:35:41,840 Speaker 1: bring down the PT. It's also true that the PT, 2733 02:35:42,240 --> 02:35:44,600 Speaker 1: like like the reason they were able to be decapped 2734 02:35:44,680 --> 02:35:47,120 Speaker 1: so like so easily is that like they'd spent the 2735 02:35:47,200 --> 02:35:49,840 Speaker 1: last like six years like firing rounds over and over 2736 02:35:49,840 --> 02:35:53,879 Speaker 1: again into their own knees. So like, Okay, these things 2737 02:35:53,920 --> 02:35:55,480 Speaker 1: are both through at the same time. But okay, and 2738 02:35:55,600 --> 02:36:01,280 Speaker 1: so loveto like evisceerates an enormous part sort of a 2739 02:36:01,360 --> 02:36:04,880 Speaker 1: section of the Brazilian ruling class, but it very quickly 2740 02:36:04,959 --> 02:36:07,440 Speaker 1: becomes clear that it's being used as a political weapon 2741 02:36:07,480 --> 02:36:09,520 Speaker 1: against Delmar Russef and the PT, despite the fact that 2742 02:36:09,560 --> 02:36:13,080 Speaker 1: like literally every Brazilian paul like party is involved with this. 2743 02:36:13,280 --> 02:36:18,040 Speaker 1: Like I think the pso L might be like the 2744 02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:20,840 Speaker 1: only major Blurzilian political party who wasn't involved in this, 2745 02:36:21,080 --> 02:36:22,920 Speaker 1: and like that's because I don't think they had anyone 2746 02:36:22,959 --> 02:36:26,800 Speaker 1: who was senior enough to do it. So like you know, 2747 02:36:28,640 --> 02:36:31,480 Speaker 1: but but but you know everyone instead like just is 2748 02:36:31,560 --> 02:36:33,240 Speaker 1: using this to go is like very clearly using this 2749 02:36:33,280 --> 02:36:37,880 Speaker 1: to go after the PT. The problem is that like 2750 02:36:39,680 --> 02:36:41,560 Speaker 1: and this is this is gonna be a perennial problem 2751 02:36:42,400 --> 02:36:46,400 Speaker 1: with these investigations is that they can't actually directly dale 2752 02:36:46,440 --> 02:36:49,960 Speaker 1: Delmo Russef or Lulu with doing anything that they have 2753 02:36:50,080 --> 02:36:55,080 Speaker 1: real problems with this. Um. You know, Delma wins re 2754 02:36:55,160 --> 02:36:57,040 Speaker 1: election to US in fourteen, but he also fifteen there 2755 02:36:57,080 --> 02:37:00,640 Speaker 1: are these as Lavata was like going and there's this 2756 02:37:00,800 --> 02:37:04,040 Speaker 1: enormous fucking press fury around it. Um, there are these 2757 02:37:04,120 --> 02:37:07,600 Speaker 1: massive sort of anti corruption protests demanding that like she resigned. 2758 02:37:07,640 --> 02:37:09,400 Speaker 1: That's ripped up by like again, like the right wing 2759 02:37:09,440 --> 02:37:14,360 Speaker 1: media goes just completely batshit in this period. Um, and 2760 02:37:14,760 --> 02:37:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so again morals running into this problem 2761 02:37:18,520 --> 02:37:21,160 Speaker 1: that he can't find anything that Dylan Russof did that 2762 02:37:21,240 --> 02:37:25,440 Speaker 1: was illegal, so he starts relying on political theater instead. 2763 02:37:25,520 --> 02:37:28,800 Speaker 1: He and and uh, he starts stages these this like 2764 02:37:29,000 --> 02:37:32,920 Speaker 1: enormous series of raids on like Lula's house as nonprofit, 2765 02:37:33,200 --> 02:37:36,680 Speaker 1: like he's like like his brother's business, and you know, 2766 02:37:36,760 --> 02:37:39,520 Speaker 1: with the entire press court like they're right like with 2767 02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:42,480 Speaker 1: the stage for all these raids. They drag him off 2768 02:37:42,520 --> 02:37:45,080 Speaker 1: to like jail for questioning, but again, like they don't 2769 02:37:45,080 --> 02:37:48,600 Speaker 1: really have anything. They kind of like invent this case 2770 02:37:49,480 --> 02:37:52,200 Speaker 1: about Lula based on some convoluted ship about a property 2771 02:37:52,240 --> 02:37:55,480 Speaker 1: that he didn't own. It's like, you know, the the 2772 02:37:55,720 --> 02:37:59,119 Speaker 1: thing here basically is that, like as with all corruption scandals, 2773 02:37:59,240 --> 02:38:01,360 Speaker 1: right this this is a fight between parts of the 2774 02:38:01,440 --> 02:38:04,480 Speaker 1: ruling class. Right, Like the actual details of who's taking 2775 02:38:04,520 --> 02:38:07,480 Speaker 1: money from who are essentially irrelevant because that's not what 2776 02:38:07,560 --> 02:38:10,560 Speaker 1: actually matters, right, What matters here is that like the 2777 02:38:10,640 --> 02:38:12,680 Speaker 1: sort of rooting prosecutors have decided they're going to destroy 2778 02:38:12,720 --> 02:38:15,880 Speaker 1: the PT, and you know they're the PT has helped 2779 02:38:15,920 --> 02:38:19,280 Speaker 1: them do it at every step. Um, it's just the 2780 02:38:19,400 --> 02:38:23,240 Speaker 1: prosecutors right there. It's like there's there's like press plus prosecutors, 2781 02:38:24,160 --> 02:38:27,200 Speaker 1: plus plus a bunch of political parties too. It's so 2782 02:38:28,080 --> 02:38:30,119 Speaker 1: not to like draw a comparison where it's not necessarily 2783 02:38:30,240 --> 02:38:32,080 Speaker 1: entirely valid, but like, look at the United Kingdom, right, 2784 02:38:32,080 --> 02:38:36,000 Speaker 1: we have Boris Johnson like monumentally fucking up the COVID response, 2785 02:38:36,320 --> 02:38:39,039 Speaker 1: tons of people die, and it's not that that brings 2786 02:38:39,160 --> 02:38:41,400 Speaker 1: him down. It's that he had a suitcase of wine 2787 02:38:41,440 --> 02:38:44,640 Speaker 1: in a karaoke party, like because at some point, but 2788 02:38:44,760 --> 02:38:48,000 Speaker 1: it's the appearance, right, It's this political theater of accountability, like, 2789 02:38:48,240 --> 02:38:50,360 Speaker 1: but you're not actually accountable to the people who you 2790 02:38:50,520 --> 02:38:52,160 Speaker 1: let down on the people who you lied to your 2791 02:38:52,160 --> 02:38:57,240 Speaker 1: accountable to, like seventeen media editors Murdoch, right, and every 2792 02:38:57,600 --> 02:39:03,160 Speaker 1: Brazil has its own versions of Murdoch who are like, yeah, 2793 02:39:03,320 --> 02:39:06,680 Speaker 1: I can only imagine like people people to who if 2794 02:39:06,760 --> 02:39:08,840 Speaker 1: I if I said my actual opinions on them, Like 2795 02:39:09,600 --> 02:39:15,000 Speaker 1: the the the FCC would specifically start regulating podcasts because like, 2796 02:39:15,520 --> 02:39:19,600 Speaker 1: oh boy, all these people should redacted parody, etcetera, etcetera, 2797 02:39:20,480 --> 02:39:25,680 Speaker 1: just like a five minute bleap here. So okay, but 2798 02:39:25,879 --> 02:39:28,600 Speaker 1: but again so okay. They have this problem again which 2799 02:39:28,600 --> 02:39:32,240 Speaker 1: that they can't really get delmar Roussa for anything, and 2800 02:39:32,400 --> 02:39:35,360 Speaker 1: so what happens instead is that the Brazilian Senate is 2801 02:39:35,440 --> 02:39:39,880 Speaker 1: sort of like scrambling for something they can use, and 2802 02:39:39,959 --> 02:39:43,040 Speaker 1: what they eventually impeached Delmar Roussa for is this like 2803 02:39:43,760 --> 02:39:48,920 Speaker 1: accounting procedure thing basically that like everyone does. And when 2804 02:39:48,920 --> 02:39:52,240 Speaker 1: I say everyone does, like almost every previous president like 2805 02:39:52,440 --> 02:39:56,039 Speaker 1: every every like every single like like uh, what's it called? 2806 02:39:56,080 --> 02:40:00,760 Speaker 1: Like every single like uh, why am I blink? Governor 2807 02:40:00,920 --> 02:40:03,000 Speaker 1: is at the right word? Yeah, like the people who 2808 02:40:03,040 --> 02:40:05,400 Speaker 1: are like the heads of states. Yeah, I think like 2809 02:40:05,440 --> 02:40:07,480 Speaker 1: all the governors do this, like fucking literally everyone in 2810 02:40:07,520 --> 02:40:09,960 Speaker 1: Brazilian politics does is including some of the people who 2811 02:40:10,080 --> 02:40:16,440 Speaker 1: are signing like the fucking uh uh impeachment thing. But 2812 02:40:16,800 --> 02:40:20,960 Speaker 1: they remove her from this and okay, so like a 2813 02:40:21,040 --> 02:40:23,480 Speaker 1: part of the like the sort of sort of like 2814 02:40:23,720 --> 02:40:29,120 Speaker 1: like decrepit and despise neoliberal right takes power. But the 2815 02:40:29,200 --> 02:40:32,760 Speaker 1: normal part thing here is that she's Delia Russof is 2816 02:40:32,760 --> 02:40:37,040 Speaker 1: impeached by her own allies, right, she is impeached like 2817 02:40:37,520 --> 02:40:41,560 Speaker 1: Michael Timer, the guy who replaces Russf like winds up 2818 02:40:41,760 --> 02:40:46,120 Speaker 1: as presidents because Dilma Russof bade him her VP. Like 2819 02:40:47,280 --> 02:40:49,800 Speaker 1: it's just like you know and this this is this 2820 02:40:49,920 --> 02:40:51,760 Speaker 1: is dating back to like this this is like really 2821 02:40:51,879 --> 02:40:54,560 Speaker 1: old sort of pet political maneuver stuff dat dating back 2822 02:40:54,600 --> 02:40:57,200 Speaker 1: to like Lula finally winning out over the sort of 2823 02:40:57,240 --> 02:40:59,360 Speaker 1: PC basis in two thousand two, right where he's able 2824 02:40:59,400 --> 02:41:01,240 Speaker 1: to convince them to like have a sort of like 2825 02:41:01,440 --> 02:41:05,240 Speaker 1: conservative guy like be his running mate. And here this 2826 02:41:05,400 --> 02:41:07,520 Speaker 1: this is this is where this finally goes to ship 2827 02:41:07,959 --> 02:41:10,480 Speaker 1: because the PT is making alliances with sort of like 2828 02:41:10,560 --> 02:41:12,560 Speaker 1: set the Right parties and all these corruption parties, and 2829 02:41:12,600 --> 02:41:17,680 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, you allied yourself, Like I I understand 2830 02:41:17,760 --> 02:41:20,000 Speaker 1: the reason they were doing this was that the sort 2831 02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:22,000 Speaker 1: of central which is like the sort of corruption parties 2832 02:41:22,240 --> 02:41:24,200 Speaker 1: have enough votes that you kind of have to work 2833 02:41:24,280 --> 02:41:27,680 Speaker 1: with them. But also like what did you expect was 2834 02:41:27,680 --> 02:41:31,640 Speaker 1: gonna happen? Like did you did you really not expect 2835 02:41:31,720 --> 02:41:34,880 Speaker 1: that the leoparage, We're gonna eat your face? Like okay, 2836 02:41:35,240 --> 02:41:37,880 Speaker 1: it's you know, like it's really like okay, like you 2837 02:41:38,040 --> 02:41:40,520 Speaker 1: let a mosquito into your house and you are now 2838 02:41:41,000 --> 02:41:44,520 Speaker 1: like fucking Pikachu facing because they because the mosquito bait you. 2839 02:41:44,640 --> 02:41:49,240 Speaker 1: It's like really like you know, and this all comes 2840 02:41:49,280 --> 02:41:50,720 Speaker 1: back to sort of like the things I've been talking 2841 02:41:50,720 --> 02:41:52,920 Speaker 1: about in last two episodes about like the inherent contradiction 2842 02:41:53,160 --> 02:41:55,400 Speaker 1: of being a leftist and happy to having to keep 2843 02:41:55,400 --> 02:41:56,800 Speaker 1: the state and having to run a state. We have 2844 02:41:56,840 --> 02:41:59,240 Speaker 1: to keep the economy going, right, which again it means 2845 02:41:59,280 --> 02:42:01,039 Speaker 1: that you have to make sure the capitalists get money. 2846 02:42:01,720 --> 02:42:04,120 Speaker 1: And Lulu could just pay these people off, like literally 2847 02:42:04,240 --> 02:42:07,040 Speaker 1: or figuratively, because he was used benefiting from the commodity boom, right, 2848 02:42:07,280 --> 02:42:09,480 Speaker 1: But then when the Chinese economy goes under and suddenly 2849 02:42:09,560 --> 02:42:11,360 Speaker 1: the money dries up because the quality boom is over, 2850 02:42:11,400 --> 02:42:13,640 Speaker 1: and the Brazilian economy starts to collapse, like you know, 2851 02:42:13,720 --> 02:42:17,280 Speaker 1: there's nothing to pay off the boozie with, and you know, 2852 02:42:18,400 --> 02:42:22,360 Speaker 1: Deli results like she's trying to pay them off, but 2853 02:42:22,600 --> 02:42:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, in order to fund it. Now, now she's 2854 02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:28,280 Speaker 1: doing austerity and that's sapping her, and that's sapping her 2855 02:42:28,320 --> 02:42:30,440 Speaker 1: base because you know, okay, you have to choose one 2856 02:42:30,480 --> 02:42:31,680 Speaker 1: or the other. But she's not been again. But she's 2857 02:42:31,680 --> 02:42:33,920 Speaker 1: also not able to pay off enough of the bored 2858 02:42:33,959 --> 02:42:36,720 Speaker 1: to stop this from coming, and so they off her 2859 02:42:38,120 --> 02:42:42,800 Speaker 1: and you know, okay, so the pt PC supporters will 2860 02:42:42,840 --> 02:42:45,120 Speaker 1: describe what happens like that this impeachment is a coup, 2861 02:42:45,360 --> 02:42:48,240 Speaker 1: which is like true, like as far as it goes like, 2862 02:42:48,440 --> 02:42:50,680 Speaker 1: it is true that like a bunch of absolute like 2863 02:42:50,760 --> 02:42:55,240 Speaker 1: psychopaths like just like overthrew the democratically elected president on 2864 02:42:55,879 --> 02:42:58,920 Speaker 1: for bullshit. I actually think it's less of a coup 2865 02:42:59,000 --> 02:43:01,720 Speaker 1: than the next the next thing we're gonna get to. Um. 2866 02:43:02,560 --> 02:43:05,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, so okay, so the product of this is 2867 02:43:05,760 --> 02:43:10,000 Speaker 1: that Michael Timer, who was like just an unfathomable neoliberal coool, 2868 02:43:10,640 --> 02:43:16,360 Speaker 1: like I really like, oh god, like it's really one 2869 02:43:16,440 --> 02:43:19,480 Speaker 1: of the worst people ever. Um who again russef picked 2870 02:43:19,520 --> 02:43:23,360 Speaker 1: us her VP, becomes President Intel spent the next two 2871 02:43:23,440 --> 02:43:29,320 Speaker 1: years like so if Draco Malfoy grew up, this is 2872 02:43:29,400 --> 02:43:32,120 Speaker 1: what he would look like. Yeah, no, it's it's it's 2873 02:43:32,240 --> 02:43:34,920 Speaker 1: really incredible. Yeah you you you you do owe it 2874 02:43:34,959 --> 02:43:38,040 Speaker 1: to yourself to look up. Yeah, it's man is yeah, 2875 02:43:38,720 --> 02:43:44,000 Speaker 1: very streamlined. But otherwise yeah, he just like he just 2876 02:43:44,360 --> 02:43:49,360 Speaker 1: looks like like exactly who he is. Yeah. Yeah, I 2877 02:43:49,480 --> 02:43:54,280 Speaker 1: cannot believe this guy succeeded in politics when he looks like, yeah, 2878 02:43:54,400 --> 02:43:57,320 Speaker 1: an evil snake. Yeah. I think he also got arrested 2879 02:43:57,520 --> 02:44:02,080 Speaker 1: for being even more like ok so, like like there 2880 02:44:02,200 --> 02:44:04,960 Speaker 1: is corruption going on in the PT timer is the 2881 02:44:05,080 --> 02:44:09,440 Speaker 1: corruption party, right, Like he actually goes down eventually, he 2882 02:44:10,040 --> 02:44:14,920 Speaker 1: is like unfathomably corrupt. Like he goes down for like 2883 02:44:16,680 --> 02:44:20,520 Speaker 1: what he took, Like it's a bribe from a meat packer, 2884 02:44:20,720 --> 02:44:23,280 Speaker 1: right that guy, Yeah, that was one of these. He 2885 02:44:23,600 --> 02:44:29,120 Speaker 1: funneled like a hundred and eighty million dollars into like 2886 02:44:29,320 --> 02:44:31,600 Speaker 1: his politically like into like his friends. And it's like 2887 02:44:32,240 --> 02:44:35,400 Speaker 1: like unfat like okay, and this stuff genuinely sucks, right, 2888 02:44:35,440 --> 02:44:37,960 Speaker 1: Like it actually does suck that literally hundreds of millions 2889 02:44:38,000 --> 02:44:44,480 Speaker 1: of dollars are being just like fucking stolen by these goals, right, Um, yeah, 2890 02:44:44,600 --> 02:44:48,240 Speaker 1: especially in a country where like people genuinely struggled to 2891 02:44:48,280 --> 02:44:50,720 Speaker 1: get by every single yeah, and and and and I 2892 02:44:51,120 --> 02:44:53,880 Speaker 1: think it's worth mentioning, like like the level of poverty 2893 02:44:53,920 --> 02:44:58,160 Speaker 1: that we're talking about here is like like again like 2894 02:44:58,240 --> 02:45:01,760 Speaker 1: the people who don't have running water, people who live 2895 02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:05,240 Speaker 1: in deserts and like don't have water at all, Like 2896 02:45:05,959 --> 02:45:09,840 Speaker 1: it is really really bad. And you and and then 2897 02:45:10,000 --> 02:45:13,959 Speaker 1: you know you're you're you are watching just this bullshit 2898 02:45:14,040 --> 02:45:22,280 Speaker 1: happening right like this fucking like guy who God, just 2899 02:45:22,440 --> 02:45:25,199 Speaker 1: this is like absolute fucking demon just stealing a hundred 2900 02:45:25,320 --> 02:45:28,640 Speaker 1: like fifty billion dollars, right, yeah, it's like rich people 2901 02:45:28,680 --> 02:45:33,760 Speaker 1: playing monopoly with your fucking future and your children's future. Yeah, 2902 02:45:33,920 --> 02:45:36,039 Speaker 1: but you know, but but it again like tempered. Nobody, 2903 02:45:36,040 --> 02:45:40,520 Speaker 1: nobody fucking voted for this guy, right like, and he's 2904 02:45:40,560 --> 02:45:45,200 Speaker 1: just immediately starts implementing like unfathomable just atrocious austerity, and 2905 02:45:45,600 --> 02:45:48,760 Speaker 1: he like he has a seven percent of rating. Everyone 2906 02:45:48,920 --> 02:45:53,800 Speaker 1: is calling, yea, this is this is the second lowest. 2907 02:45:54,120 --> 02:45:55,600 Speaker 1: This is the second lowest group of ready I've ever 2908 02:45:55,640 --> 02:45:58,240 Speaker 1: seen for for a ruling politician, after Kim Jung Pill, 2909 02:45:58,440 --> 02:46:02,600 Speaker 1: who I think got down to three percent one day. 2910 02:46:02,600 --> 02:46:04,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to do an actual Kim junk Pill episode. 2911 02:46:05,000 --> 02:46:07,760 Speaker 1: I feel like you're within the error margin of any polling. 2912 02:46:07,800 --> 02:46:10,920 Speaker 1: Once you get into the single digits, no one likes you, 2913 02:46:11,400 --> 02:46:14,440 Speaker 1: like literally, like like remember like people like people from 2914 02:46:14,560 --> 02:46:16,800 Speaker 1: his own party want him to resign, right and he 2915 02:46:16,840 --> 02:46:18,760 Speaker 1: just doesn't. Just days in power because there's no one, 2916 02:46:18,840 --> 02:46:20,600 Speaker 1: no one can do anything about it. Because but you 2917 02:46:20,720 --> 02:46:22,800 Speaker 1: always get that right when you when you engage in 2918 02:46:22,840 --> 02:46:26,160 Speaker 1: this politics of corruption, the like sort of palace cups 2919 02:46:26,200 --> 02:46:29,960 Speaker 1: and interronicing, backstabbing will necessarily happen because like that is 2920 02:46:30,000 --> 02:46:32,720 Speaker 1: how you further your own career and therefore benefit more 2921 02:46:32,800 --> 02:46:36,360 Speaker 1: from the corruption. Right, Like again, see the clusterfuck that 2922 02:46:36,520 --> 02:46:39,880 Speaker 1: is the United Kingdom. Now do you know who else 2923 02:46:40,000 --> 02:46:42,320 Speaker 1: doesn't benefit from corruption like the rest of us. I 2924 02:46:42,720 --> 02:46:45,400 Speaker 1: don't think we can say that with any degree of 2925 02:46:45,480 --> 02:46:52,320 Speaker 1: certainty decrease it shall it's the products and services that 2926 02:46:52,720 --> 02:46:58,360 Speaker 1: support this podcast. Okay, and and we're back, um and Okay, 2927 02:46:58,560 --> 02:46:59,720 Speaker 1: this I think is a good at a time as 2928 02:46:59,720 --> 02:47:07,800 Speaker 1: any to mention that, like, okay, so lava Jotto is 2929 02:47:08,120 --> 02:47:10,000 Speaker 1: going on this entire time, right, this, this thing is 2930 02:47:10,040 --> 02:47:12,080 Speaker 1: going on for years and years and years and years, 2931 02:47:12,640 --> 02:47:17,120 Speaker 1: and it's reiterating that Lava Jotto is being illegally backed 2932 02:47:17,160 --> 02:47:20,000 Speaker 1: by the American Just Department, Justice Department, the SEC, the 2933 02:47:20,080 --> 02:47:23,879 Speaker 1: FBI probably all, I think, also the CIA, although weirdly 2934 02:47:24,000 --> 02:47:26,320 Speaker 1: this is okay, And and this is where things get 2935 02:47:26,400 --> 02:47:30,480 Speaker 1: very strange, because this, like from the documents that we've seen, 2936 02:47:30,640 --> 02:47:34,000 Speaker 1: there is some evidence the CIA handed them ship. The 2937 02:47:34,080 --> 02:47:35,880 Speaker 1: thing we have the most evidence for is actually the 2938 02:47:35,959 --> 02:47:40,720 Speaker 1: FBI running this coup. Weird. Yeah, it's very weird. What 2939 02:47:40,879 --> 02:47:44,080 Speaker 1: was happening basically is that Okay, so, the way American 2940 02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:46,720 Speaker 1: corruption laws work is that like if any money passes 2941 02:47:46,760 --> 02:47:48,920 Speaker 1: through like an American bank account, the FBI has the 2942 02:47:48,920 --> 02:47:51,800 Speaker 1: authority to go after them. And the FBI and the 2943 02:47:51,879 --> 02:47:55,440 Speaker 1: Justice Department fucking hate the PT and they're they're they're 2944 02:47:55,520 --> 02:47:58,640 Speaker 1: looking at Petro Boss and they're going like, this is 2945 02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:00,840 Speaker 1: so much fucking money we can get if we go 2946 02:48:00,959 --> 02:48:03,280 Speaker 1: after these people, and also we hate them, and and 2947 02:48:03,360 --> 02:48:06,520 Speaker 1: it's also worth nothing. Okay, So, uh, Sergio Morrow is 2948 02:48:06,680 --> 02:48:09,640 Speaker 1: like he's a Harvard guy, right, He's a Harvard guy. 2949 02:48:09,680 --> 02:48:12,720 Speaker 1: He was trained by a bunch of American police people, 2950 02:48:12,920 --> 02:48:14,800 Speaker 1: like he he is like he's like one of these 2951 02:48:14,840 --> 02:48:17,480 Speaker 1: sort of like he's he's a Nazi cool basically, right, 2952 02:48:17,640 --> 02:48:19,560 Speaker 1: but like he's like the the law version of a 2953 02:48:19,600 --> 02:48:23,600 Speaker 1: Nastic cool and so the the entire like and again 2954 02:48:23,640 --> 02:48:25,480 Speaker 1: it's it's funny like the FBI, in theory, is not 2955 02:48:25,480 --> 02:48:27,000 Speaker 1: supposed to be Like the FBI is supposed to be 2956 02:48:27,040 --> 02:48:29,240 Speaker 1: a domestic agency, which does not make them any better, 2957 02:48:29,360 --> 02:48:31,080 Speaker 1: by the way, but like they're they're not supposed to 2958 02:48:31,160 --> 02:48:33,320 Speaker 1: be going after like they're not supposed to be trying 2959 02:48:33,320 --> 02:48:35,680 Speaker 1: to overthrow the president of Brazil, but you know they are. 2960 02:48:35,720 --> 02:48:39,440 Speaker 1: And again, like they are taking down the Black panthers, 2961 02:48:39,680 --> 02:48:44,880 Speaker 1: increasing anti semitism, just the normal standard domestics. Yeah, shooting anarchists, 2962 02:48:44,920 --> 02:48:54,040 Speaker 1: shooting like possibly assassinating MLK. Um, yeah them, yeah not 2963 02:48:54,320 --> 02:48:55,720 Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be doing the four in cruise. 2964 02:48:55,720 --> 02:48:57,800 Speaker 1: That's the CIA job. But they're they're muscling into the 2965 02:48:57,840 --> 02:49:01,720 Speaker 1: CIA's territory here. Um. It's it's it's worth mentioning as 2966 02:49:01,800 --> 02:49:08,520 Speaker 1: well that like the Obama administration is heavily involved in this, right. Um. 2967 02:49:09,240 --> 02:49:10,960 Speaker 1: And you know, it turns out that by the time 2968 02:49:11,000 --> 02:49:13,960 Speaker 1: you get toy sixteen Trump ministrate tries amteen trusmistrations of power. 2969 02:49:14,000 --> 02:49:17,400 Speaker 1: They love this ship because it's Trump. It's like, wow, damn, 2970 02:49:17,520 --> 02:49:21,680 Speaker 1: who could have guessed? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and as 2971 02:49:21,760 --> 02:49:24,000 Speaker 1: and this is gonna come out. It's gonna come out later. Um. 2972 02:49:24,680 --> 02:49:27,240 Speaker 1: By this okay, this is the second time that Glenn 2973 02:49:27,320 --> 02:49:29,680 Speaker 1: Greenwald is just handed like one of the biggest news 2974 02:49:29,680 --> 02:49:31,879 Speaker 1: stories of the decade, like literally dropped on his lap 2975 02:49:31,959 --> 02:49:34,480 Speaker 1: and he gets to like, right about it is that Yeah, 2976 02:49:34,600 --> 02:49:37,199 Speaker 1: it comes out that like this stuff is being politically 2977 02:49:37,280 --> 02:49:41,400 Speaker 1: like very obviously politically motivated, like sorry Morrows, like openly 2978 02:49:41,440 --> 02:49:45,879 Speaker 1: cutting deals with Bolsonaro to the political persecutions. There's again 2979 02:49:45,959 --> 02:49:49,120 Speaker 1: again the stuff about how he's being paid by he's 2980 02:49:49,160 --> 02:49:52,160 Speaker 1: literally getting like the task Force is being funded by 2981 02:49:52,160 --> 02:49:56,080 Speaker 1: the FBI through these slush funds of fine money collected 2982 02:49:56,080 --> 02:50:02,680 Speaker 1: from Petro Boss. Like it's unbelievably shady ship. Um. Now, 2983 02:50:02,800 --> 02:50:05,400 Speaker 1: the entire time this is going on, Sergeo Morrow has 2984 02:50:05,440 --> 02:50:09,680 Speaker 1: been like illegally wire tapping Lula's conversations and leading them 2985 02:50:09,720 --> 02:50:14,360 Speaker 1: to the press to like destroy La. And politically it's 2986 02:50:15,320 --> 02:50:17,400 Speaker 1: and you know and like like operation car Washed, Like 2987 02:50:17,640 --> 02:50:20,240 Speaker 1: prosecutors are just like going on TV and telling the 2988 02:50:20,440 --> 02:50:23,600 Speaker 1: entire Brazilian public like, no, Lula is guilty, there's no 2989 02:50:23,680 --> 02:50:27,160 Speaker 1: doubt about it, and then she doesn't. Seventeen Morrow has 2990 02:50:27,240 --> 02:50:30,400 Speaker 1: Lula convicted. Now Lula appeals as on the grounds that 2991 02:50:30,520 --> 02:50:33,600 Speaker 1: like this is incredibly obviously a show trial, like but 2992 02:50:33,720 --> 02:50:35,720 Speaker 1: by the because there's a lot of you will read 2993 02:50:35,760 --> 02:50:37,720 Speaker 1: a lot of like the sort of liberal press in 2994 02:50:37,800 --> 02:50:39,680 Speaker 1: the US like fucking loves this ship and like she 2995 02:50:39,720 --> 02:50:43,040 Speaker 1: doesn't fourteen doesn't. He's the sixtees, somebody say seventeen, but like, 2996 02:50:43,360 --> 02:50:46,119 Speaker 1: but she doesn't seventeen. Even the sort of American liberal 2997 02:50:46,200 --> 02:50:50,800 Speaker 1: press is like, hey, you're running these trials too fast, 2998 02:50:51,400 --> 02:50:54,960 Speaker 1: Like these don't look like real trials anymore. Like he's 2999 02:50:55,080 --> 02:50:57,320 Speaker 1: like they're there's there's like it really is, like they 3000 02:50:57,360 --> 02:50:59,200 Speaker 1: stopped having even the pretense that it's not being show 3001 02:50:59,240 --> 02:51:01,760 Speaker 1: trials are just like committing people, convicting people, convicting people, 3002 02:51:01,760 --> 02:51:03,800 Speaker 1: convincing people. And like you know, in the Lula case, 3003 02:51:03,879 --> 02:51:06,879 Speaker 1: there's some interesting stuff which is that like, Okay, Morow 3004 02:51:07,080 --> 02:51:11,360 Speaker 1: doesn't have the legal jurisdiction to prosecute Lula here, like 3005 02:51:11,920 --> 02:51:15,040 Speaker 1: the crimes that were supposedly committed aren't committed in a 3006 02:51:15,120 --> 02:51:18,480 Speaker 1: place where where Barrow has any jurisdiction at all, like 3007 02:51:18,640 --> 02:51:21,560 Speaker 1: it's another state, and he just doesn't anyways, because he's 3008 02:51:21,560 --> 02:51:24,720 Speaker 1: just like fuck it, like whatever. And so it's more 3009 02:51:24,800 --> 02:51:27,600 Speaker 1: of a vibe when you oral city government. Yeah. Well, 3010 02:51:27,640 --> 02:51:29,320 Speaker 1: and and again like this is the thing, like people 3011 02:51:29,360 --> 02:51:32,519 Speaker 1: people get really really really hung up about legal technicalities 3012 02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:34,880 Speaker 1: and that ship and as we're about to see in 3013 02:51:34,959 --> 02:51:37,960 Speaker 1: that in in this case, right like that ship does 3014 02:51:38,040 --> 02:51:41,480 Speaker 1: not matter, right this this is entirely about sort of power, 3015 02:51:41,560 --> 02:51:44,600 Speaker 1: about power brokering and sort of like where where where 3016 02:51:44,640 --> 02:51:47,160 Speaker 1: the Brazilian elite is in a particular time, who's backing 3017 02:51:47,280 --> 02:51:51,320 Speaker 1: what Lula puts in a petition if he puts in 3018 02:51:51,360 --> 02:51:54,080 Speaker 1: a rid of habeas corpus that's like, hey, there's stuff 3019 02:51:54,080 --> 02:51:55,880 Speaker 1: in the constitution that's like, I shouldn't be put in 3020 02:51:55,920 --> 02:51:58,640 Speaker 1: prison until my appeals are done. And this goes to 3021 02:51:58,720 --> 02:52:03,279 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, at which point a fucking Brazilian general 3022 02:52:03,360 --> 02:52:05,680 Speaker 1: who apparently be this this this apparently was planned by 3023 02:52:05,720 --> 02:52:10,360 Speaker 1: fifteen other generals. Uh who I I got a guy 3024 02:52:10,560 --> 02:52:15,200 Speaker 1: named Edward edwardo Vilas Bolas like literally sorts threatening the 3025 02:52:15,240 --> 02:52:20,199 Speaker 1: Supreme Court on Twitter like she's like he starts employing 3026 02:52:20,240 --> 02:52:22,960 Speaker 1: And this tweet is read on Globo, which is like 3027 02:52:23,240 --> 02:52:26,160 Speaker 1: the fucking like like big, big, biggest news network in Brazil. 3028 02:52:26,320 --> 02:52:29,640 Speaker 1: They like read out this tweet, like the subtext of 3029 02:52:29,720 --> 02:52:31,600 Speaker 1: which is, if you don't put Lulie in jail, we 3030 02:52:31,640 --> 02:52:34,720 Speaker 1: are going to do a coup. So they dragged Lula 3031 02:52:34,760 --> 02:52:37,640 Speaker 1: off to prison and they put him in solitary for 3032 02:52:37,760 --> 02:52:43,320 Speaker 1: five and eighty days, which is like yeah, yeah, they 3033 02:52:43,920 --> 02:52:46,240 Speaker 1: they they are like they are torturing the shot out 3034 02:52:46,280 --> 02:52:54,360 Speaker 1: of him. Um Jesus, yeah yeah yeah, living out there 3035 02:52:54,440 --> 02:52:58,840 Speaker 1: like fucking like you know, like previous generation of coups 3036 02:52:58,840 --> 02:53:02,879 Speaker 1: against Latin America, like chopping Victor Halla's hands off fantasy. Yeah, 3037 02:53:02,920 --> 02:53:04,200 Speaker 1: and like like I said, you know, I would say, 3038 02:53:04,200 --> 02:53:07,440 Speaker 1: it's like Lula Lula has was arrested by the military 3039 02:53:07,480 --> 02:53:10,160 Speaker 1: dictatorship in the eighties, right, but even though the military 3040 02:53:10,160 --> 02:53:12,600 Speaker 1: dictatorship only held him for thirty days and then let 3041 02:53:12,680 --> 02:53:16,440 Speaker 1: him go, and they're they're like they're trying to put 3042 02:53:16,520 --> 02:53:18,240 Speaker 1: him in prison the fourth things like it's originally seven 3043 02:53:18,360 --> 02:53:20,640 Speaker 1: years and then i s extended to twelve years um, 3044 02:53:21,320 --> 02:53:22,720 Speaker 1: and then there's this whole thing. But like she's also 3045 02:53:22,760 --> 02:53:24,400 Speaker 1: like not allowed to speak to the press during this time. 3046 02:53:24,400 --> 02:53:27,040 Speaker 1: And the reason this is happening is that, uh, if 3047 02:53:27,080 --> 02:53:29,160 Speaker 1: you're in prison, you can't run for president. And in 3048 02:53:29,240 --> 02:53:31,760 Speaker 1: jail's an eighteen. If Lula's run allowed to run for president, 3049 02:53:31,800 --> 02:53:33,320 Speaker 1: even with all the press ship, he is going to 3050 02:53:33,440 --> 02:53:38,360 Speaker 1: fucking stop literally anyone in the field. Yeah and yeah, 3051 02:53:38,480 --> 02:53:41,640 Speaker 1: so this is going up. But before we talk about 3052 02:53:42,120 --> 02:53:44,680 Speaker 1: the election a little bit and then sort of wind down, 3053 02:53:44,720 --> 02:53:46,360 Speaker 1: there's one more thing I want to talk about, which 3054 02:53:46,360 --> 02:53:49,680 Speaker 1: is that four days before Lula is arrested, Mariella Franco, 3055 02:53:49,879 --> 02:53:53,480 Speaker 1: who is a incredibly radical City City councilor and real 3056 02:53:53,560 --> 02:53:58,040 Speaker 1: dejan Narrow, is assassinated by death squad um. There there's 3057 02:53:58,040 --> 02:54:02,039 Speaker 1: a lot of coverage of like who she was sort 3058 02:54:02,080 --> 02:54:04,040 Speaker 1: of like there's lot of coverage of her story about 3059 02:54:04,080 --> 02:54:06,440 Speaker 1: how she's a black, lesbian woman who came who like 3060 02:54:06,840 --> 02:54:09,199 Speaker 1: was from an incredibly for poor family and the favelas 3061 02:54:09,240 --> 02:54:10,440 Speaker 1: and how she sort of like worked a way out 3062 02:54:10,440 --> 02:54:13,960 Speaker 1: to you politicians, but like they don't talk about you know, 3063 02:54:14,320 --> 02:54:16,640 Speaker 1: people will sort of obliquely mentioned her human rights work, 3064 02:54:16,720 --> 02:54:18,480 Speaker 1: or they'll talk a bit about how she's part of 3065 02:54:18,560 --> 02:54:21,800 Speaker 1: the PSOL, which is is leftist party that like, Okay, 3066 02:54:21,840 --> 02:54:24,720 Speaker 1: so I'm still I suppose it. I'm looking I'm so 3067 02:54:24,879 --> 02:54:26,959 Speaker 1: kind of hazy about their exactory. I think what happened 3068 02:54:27,120 --> 02:54:30,360 Speaker 1: was there was a group of PT of of PT 3069 02:54:30,840 --> 02:54:34,400 Speaker 1: like uh politicians who refused to vote for an austerity 3070 02:54:34,440 --> 02:54:36,520 Speaker 1: package the PT was trying to push through, and they 3071 02:54:36,560 --> 02:54:37,880 Speaker 1: got kicked out of the party for it, and they 3072 02:54:37,920 --> 02:54:42,000 Speaker 1: found at the ps O l um and you know, 3073 02:54:42,280 --> 02:54:44,440 Speaker 1: they they'll talk about sort of this stuff. What what 3074 02:54:44,560 --> 02:54:46,920 Speaker 1: they won't cover really is what she was actually doing. 3075 02:54:47,560 --> 02:54:52,359 Speaker 1: And I think this is like this is incredibly important 3076 02:54:52,360 --> 02:54:54,240 Speaker 1: because the thing she was actually doing was a bunch 3077 02:54:54,240 --> 02:54:58,520 Speaker 1: of very radical and unbelievably dangerous anti police activism, um so, 3078 02:54:58,760 --> 02:55:00,920 Speaker 1: and she doesn't. Eight. This is this again. Under Lula's 3079 02:55:00,920 --> 02:55:03,199 Speaker 1: Pizza government, that there was a re orientation of police 3080 02:55:03,200 --> 02:55:06,520 Speaker 1: strategy and the favelas tours this new program called Pacifying 3081 02:55:06,560 --> 02:55:09,960 Speaker 1: Police Units UPPs, and the idea was that instead of 3082 02:55:10,040 --> 02:55:12,440 Speaker 1: doing constant raids in the favelas and then leaving them, 3083 02:55:12,480 --> 02:55:15,480 Speaker 1: they were just gonna put them under like constant police occupation. 3084 02:55:16,800 --> 02:55:21,240 Speaker 1: And you know, like there's something like four hundred thousand 3085 02:55:21,360 --> 02:55:23,800 Speaker 1: people at a time are just living under these occupations. 3086 02:55:24,720 --> 02:55:26,600 Speaker 1: And in the beginning, it's supposed to be tied to 3087 02:55:26,680 --> 02:55:28,440 Speaker 1: like so like there's supposed to be like an expansion 3088 02:55:28,480 --> 02:55:30,920 Speaker 1: of like social services into the favelas and just supposed 3089 02:55:30,920 --> 02:55:34,080 Speaker 1: to be like community policing, and that just doesn't happen. 3090 02:55:34,480 --> 02:55:36,280 Speaker 1: And but he hasn't. Thirteen. They just like give up 3091 02:55:36,280 --> 02:55:39,240 Speaker 1: the pretense of doing any social work. And they found 3092 02:55:39,320 --> 02:55:42,200 Speaker 1: this thing called had the Good Groups of Proximity Police, 3093 02:55:42,840 --> 02:55:45,760 Speaker 1: which very quickly turned into just like fucking desk squads. 3094 02:55:45,840 --> 02:55:47,680 Speaker 1: But they're but they're they're they're both desk squads and 3095 02:55:47,720 --> 02:55:50,640 Speaker 1: they're also doing like stopping frisk ship and just like 3096 02:55:50,760 --> 02:55:53,160 Speaker 1: carassing random black people. There's they were just murdering people 3097 02:55:53,200 --> 02:55:56,520 Speaker 1: on the streets, um on a scale that is like 3098 02:55:56,640 --> 02:55:58,520 Speaker 1: it's worse than has been before, like that there were 3099 02:55:58,520 --> 02:56:00,520 Speaker 1: individual police unit. There's an individ to a police unit 3100 02:56:00,560 --> 02:56:03,560 Speaker 1: because a hundred and seventeen people in a year, like 3101 02:56:03,840 --> 02:56:06,880 Speaker 1: it is, it is horrible, right, And this is what 3102 02:56:06,920 --> 02:56:09,560 Speaker 1: I was talking about about the Brazilian police killing killing 3103 02:56:09,600 --> 02:56:10,800 Speaker 1: at a rate that's a eleven time tire in the 3104 02:56:10,840 --> 02:56:14,000 Speaker 1: American police, like it is. It is fucking atrocious, um. 3105 02:56:15,240 --> 02:56:19,040 Speaker 1: And there are some incredible videos of yeah, like it's 3106 02:56:19,200 --> 02:56:23,199 Speaker 1: fucked um and they're war with parts of their own population. Yeah, 3107 02:56:23,640 --> 02:56:26,680 Speaker 1: I mean I say this like this is this is 3108 02:56:26,720 --> 02:56:30,200 Speaker 1: one of those things about fascism, right, where like fascism 3109 02:56:30,640 --> 02:56:34,240 Speaker 1: like always kind of has works on the system of 3110 02:56:34,240 --> 02:56:37,840 Speaker 1: alliances between sort of like the police paramilitaries who are 3111 02:56:37,879 --> 02:56:40,520 Speaker 1: sort of tied to the police, and organized crime, and 3112 02:56:41,040 --> 02:56:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, like that there is an extent to which 3113 02:56:42,720 --> 02:56:44,280 Speaker 1: there are a bunch of gangs and the police are 3114 02:56:44,320 --> 02:56:46,520 Speaker 1: finding them. There's also an extent to which like everyone 3115 02:56:46,640 --> 02:56:49,520 Speaker 1: involved is just shaking down all of these fucking like 3116 02:56:49,760 --> 02:56:54,440 Speaker 1: unbelievably poor uh largely black, like working class people who 3117 02:56:54,480 --> 02:56:59,800 Speaker 1: are just getting fucking robbed every day it's horrible. Um yeah. 3118 02:57:00,040 --> 02:57:03,240 Speaker 1: And it's that where it might be a bit of 3119 02:57:03,280 --> 02:57:05,560 Speaker 1: a side by that we don't like need to fit 3120 02:57:05,640 --> 02:57:07,520 Speaker 1: in here, but in this case we can distribute it. 3121 02:57:07,680 --> 02:57:10,119 Speaker 1: But there's a I know that one of the big 3122 02:57:10,200 --> 02:57:16,120 Speaker 1: Brazilian prison gangs is like ostensibly leftist. They're like they 3123 02:57:16,200 --> 02:57:20,120 Speaker 1: called Red Command, right, yeah, I think I think is 3124 02:57:20,160 --> 02:57:25,680 Speaker 1: it really command anti? Yeah? So they they used to 3125 02:57:25,800 --> 02:57:29,760 Speaker 1: be Yeah, so okay, Red Command used to be like 3126 02:57:30,280 --> 02:57:34,000 Speaker 1: an m L group that was like a sort of 3127 02:57:34,080 --> 02:57:37,640 Speaker 1: like alliance between like regular people in prison and like 3128 02:57:37,760 --> 02:57:41,080 Speaker 1: left just people who've been put in prison command of Yeah, 3129 02:57:41,200 --> 02:57:44,640 Speaker 1: and it it does a similar thing to like like 3130 02:57:44,760 --> 02:57:46,280 Speaker 1: there are parts of the farc that go like this. 3131 02:57:46,440 --> 02:57:47,959 Speaker 1: There's a lot of there's a thing that happens when 3132 02:57:48,160 --> 02:57:50,840 Speaker 1: you're dealing with sort of armed groups like this, which 3133 02:57:50,920 --> 02:57:54,480 Speaker 1: is that Okay, So like a lot of the things 3134 02:57:54,600 --> 02:57:57,160 Speaker 1: that you do to get money as an armed group 3135 02:57:57,280 --> 02:57:59,360 Speaker 1: are things that are away to get money. So things 3136 02:57:59,400 --> 02:58:01,400 Speaker 1: like kidnapping is like entering the drug trade. And there's 3137 02:58:01,400 --> 02:58:04,320 Speaker 1: a lot of groups to start out ideological that just 3138 02:58:04,680 --> 02:58:06,800 Speaker 1: ceased to be ideological and the people well, which is 3139 02:58:06,840 --> 02:58:08,360 Speaker 1: in the drug right now, and this is kind of 3140 02:58:08,400 --> 02:58:10,640 Speaker 1: what happens here with these people. But okay, there's actually 3141 02:58:10,640 --> 02:58:14,760 Speaker 1: this actually does tie into this because so Marilla Franco 3142 02:58:14,879 --> 02:58:17,520 Speaker 1: like spends her entire life like fighting these people. She 3143 02:58:17,680 --> 02:58:19,840 Speaker 1: she she gets she has she gets a sociology degree, 3144 02:58:19,959 --> 02:58:21,960 Speaker 1: and like what she's doing and like while she's doing 3145 02:58:22,040 --> 02:58:24,800 Speaker 1: sociology stuff is she's like making reports and like like 3146 02:58:24,959 --> 02:58:27,000 Speaker 1: telling everyone like what these people are doing, like what 3147 02:58:27,120 --> 02:58:30,080 Speaker 1: what what the funding police are doing? And when she dies, 3148 02:58:30,440 --> 02:58:35,000 Speaker 1: like there's a fucking judge who's like, actually, uh, what 3149 02:58:35,280 --> 02:58:38,600 Speaker 1: happened was that? Uh? She was she was she was 3150 02:58:38,720 --> 02:58:41,920 Speaker 1: working with Red Command and she got behind her debt 3151 02:58:41,959 --> 02:58:43,200 Speaker 1: payments and they killed her. And it's like this is 3152 02:58:43,280 --> 02:58:47,120 Speaker 1: some fucking bullshit, like like she so we stick is 3153 02:58:47,160 --> 02:58:49,200 Speaker 1: we actually still don't really know much about like who 3154 02:58:49,320 --> 02:58:52,120 Speaker 1: killed her, right, we know that one of the one 3155 02:58:52,160 --> 02:58:54,160 Speaker 1: of the people who's being tried for the getaway driver 3156 02:58:54,360 --> 02:58:56,960 Speaker 1: was like pictured with Bolsonaro and he's there's a bunch 3157 02:58:56,959 --> 02:59:00,640 Speaker 1: of weird ties to like Bolsonaro's brother, because Bosonaro was very, 3158 02:59:00,720 --> 02:59:03,280 Speaker 1: very heavily tied into a bunch of arm paramilitary groups. 3159 02:59:05,000 --> 02:59:07,400 Speaker 1: It works well for everyone to have these groups that 3160 02:59:07,480 --> 02:59:09,440 Speaker 1: they can paign as like the Great Satan, right, Like 3161 02:59:09,520 --> 02:59:11,240 Speaker 1: the police can be like ware com back to the gangs, 3162 02:59:11,280 --> 02:59:12,640 Speaker 1: and gangs can be like, well, you all hate the 3163 02:59:12,680 --> 02:59:15,160 Speaker 1: fucking police, right like, and then they yeah, they could 3164 02:59:15,160 --> 02:59:17,800 Speaker 1: just blame anyone else whenever there is and and it's 3165 02:59:17,840 --> 02:59:21,200 Speaker 1: like the self supporting structure. Yeah. But then but every 3166 02:59:21,240 --> 02:59:22,840 Speaker 1: once in a while, you get someone and that that's 3167 02:59:22,879 --> 02:59:26,320 Speaker 1: like verylar frank, like, she's a very very rare kind 3168 02:59:26,400 --> 02:59:28,760 Speaker 1: of person, like she she winds up as a city council, right, 3169 02:59:29,000 --> 02:59:31,800 Speaker 1: She's she's a very very rare kind of politician who 3170 02:59:31,920 --> 02:59:35,360 Speaker 1: like everyone likes like, like everyone on the left likes 3171 02:59:35,440 --> 02:59:38,400 Speaker 1: like you're even you're sort of like like most hardcore 3172 02:59:38,640 --> 02:59:41,760 Speaker 1: like fucking guy in like like it was your almost 3173 02:59:41,800 --> 02:59:44,400 Speaker 1: like hardcore guy like a tiny mL sect and like 3174 02:59:44,560 --> 02:59:47,879 Speaker 1: your most hardline anarchists. Like everyone likes her because she's 3175 02:59:47,920 --> 02:59:50,400 Speaker 1: doing she's doing, like she's every day putting her life 3176 02:59:50,440 --> 02:59:53,560 Speaker 1: in danger trying to stop the police. And you know, 3177 02:59:53,720 --> 02:59:55,920 Speaker 1: and when when you get someone like that who is 3178 02:59:56,040 --> 02:59:57,840 Speaker 1: not part of the sort of like it's not part 3179 02:59:57,879 --> 02:59:59,560 Speaker 1: of either of these factions, right and who was a 3180 02:59:59,600 --> 03:00:03,000 Speaker 1: genuine threat to both of them, because she is unbelievably popular. 3181 03:00:03,040 --> 03:00:05,400 Speaker 1: She she gets the fifth most votes of anyone. Like 3182 03:00:05,480 --> 03:00:07,400 Speaker 1: who's who's running for city counselor and she's doing it 3183 03:00:07,440 --> 03:00:10,040 Speaker 1: again running for the PSOL. Who's like they have like 3184 03:00:10,360 --> 03:00:14,600 Speaker 1: five seats I think in in the Senate or something 3185 03:00:14,640 --> 03:00:17,080 Speaker 1: like that. Like like they're not like they're not like that. 3186 03:00:17,200 --> 03:00:18,880 Speaker 1: They are a kind of large party, but they're not 3187 03:00:19,000 --> 03:00:20,520 Speaker 1: like one of the parties that ever gonna like win 3188 03:00:20,600 --> 03:00:24,080 Speaker 1: a national election, right like, and but you know, but 3189 03:00:24,240 --> 03:00:26,440 Speaker 1: she she is an incredible threat to them, and so 3190 03:00:26,600 --> 03:00:28,560 Speaker 1: they have her killed. We know that the bullets that 3191 03:00:28,720 --> 03:00:32,120 Speaker 1: were at that that she was killed by were part 3192 03:00:32,160 --> 03:00:34,080 Speaker 1: of a batch that was sold by the police. We 3193 03:00:34,200 --> 03:00:36,520 Speaker 1: know that from from another one of the batches that 3194 03:00:36,640 --> 03:00:39,240 Speaker 1: was in that sequence. Uh, there's a bunch of other 3195 03:00:39,280 --> 03:00:41,480 Speaker 1: people who were killed by the police. And this is 3196 03:00:41,520 --> 03:00:44,400 Speaker 1: also like wait, sold to the police, are sold by 3197 03:00:44,480 --> 03:00:48,360 Speaker 1: the police, sold by the police. Magnificent. Yeah, yeah there, 3198 03:00:48,560 --> 03:00:50,200 Speaker 1: you know. And there's a lot of stuff going on 3199 03:00:50,280 --> 03:00:52,440 Speaker 1: here too, which is like there are a lot of 3200 03:00:52,520 --> 03:00:54,760 Speaker 1: activists in Brazil who get killed, like this is this 3201 03:00:54,879 --> 03:00:57,240 Speaker 1: happens all the time. There are a lot of digits activists, 3202 03:00:57,280 --> 03:00:58,600 Speaker 1: you get killed. There a lot of black activists to 3203 03:00:58,600 --> 03:01:01,200 Speaker 1: get killed. They are just like if you piss off 3204 03:01:01,240 --> 03:01:03,560 Speaker 1: the wrong person, like you can just get executed. And 3205 03:01:03,680 --> 03:01:05,600 Speaker 1: this assassination is one of the symbols of it because 3206 03:01:06,400 --> 03:01:09,680 Speaker 1: like she was a city councilwoman, right, Like she was 3207 03:01:09,720 --> 03:01:11,440 Speaker 1: part of a major political party, and they just fucking 3208 03:01:11,480 --> 03:01:16,840 Speaker 1: shot her, yeah and held accountable. Yeah, it's it's fucking horrible. 3209 03:01:17,040 --> 03:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Um I I yeah, I don't really have I don't 3210 03:01:20,320 --> 03:01:23,480 Speaker 1: have any sort of like clever thing to say here. 3211 03:01:23,520 --> 03:01:27,160 Speaker 1: It's just it's just fucking awful. There's one more thing 3212 03:01:27,200 --> 03:01:29,280 Speaker 1: I need to mention, which is that Okay, So the 3213 03:01:29,520 --> 03:01:31,880 Speaker 1: thing she was doing like like literally literally she was 3214 03:01:31,959 --> 03:01:34,440 Speaker 1: at a conference, like she she was killed, like driving 3215 03:01:34,520 --> 03:01:36,800 Speaker 1: home from a conference, right, And the thing she was 3216 03:01:36,840 --> 03:01:39,360 Speaker 1: doing like literally in the days leading up, like leading 3217 03:01:39,400 --> 03:01:42,760 Speaker 1: up to her assassination was um so, Michael Timmer has 3218 03:01:42,840 --> 03:01:44,840 Speaker 1: this thing called the Cote, the call the quote unquote 3219 03:01:44,879 --> 03:01:48,400 Speaker 1: federal intervention, which was apparently like extremely popular in Brazil, 3220 03:01:48,440 --> 03:01:51,440 Speaker 1: which is like a sign of how fucked up everything is, 3221 03:01:51,480 --> 03:01:53,680 Speaker 1: which is that he just like was like, fuck it, 3222 03:01:53,760 --> 03:01:56,000 Speaker 1: We're gonna hand control of quote unquote security and real 3223 03:01:56,080 --> 03:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Dejannarrow to the army and let them like go to 3224 03:01:58,480 --> 03:02:02,240 Speaker 1: warward the gangs. Yeah, fuck, unbelievably fucked. And she she 3225 03:02:02,480 --> 03:02:05,000 Speaker 1: is too, takes an incredibly bold chance against us, is 3226 03:02:05,040 --> 03:02:07,240 Speaker 1: trying it, is trying to fight it, and then she 3227 03:02:07,440 --> 03:02:11,760 Speaker 1: is mysteriously assassinated. Yeah, it's a bit like you know 3228 03:02:11,840 --> 03:02:14,720 Speaker 1: how like you obviously people will say that fascism is 3229 03:02:14,840 --> 03:02:18,160 Speaker 1: like the return of colonials into domestic policy, right, colonial 3230 03:02:18,680 --> 03:02:22,560 Speaker 1: colonial methods in the metropal instead of in the colonies, 3231 03:02:22,600 --> 03:02:25,360 Speaker 1: and like this is similar here, right, Like what you're 3232 03:02:25,360 --> 03:02:27,520 Speaker 1: seeing is just they're doing a colonialism, but just to 3233 03:02:27,600 --> 03:02:31,240 Speaker 1: poor people. Yeah, although I should mention a lot of 3234 03:02:31,320 --> 03:02:35,200 Speaker 1: us and that that analysis is developed in like like 3235 03:02:35,240 --> 03:02:38,280 Speaker 1: it's developed for Europe and the Brazilian context is not 3236 03:02:38,320 --> 03:02:41,440 Speaker 1: the same thing as that, because like Brazil was also 3237 03:02:41,560 --> 03:02:43,760 Speaker 1: doing all of this stuff to its own population, because 3238 03:02:43,760 --> 03:02:48,480 Speaker 1: again Brazil has a mass like like like Brazil's styled 3239 03:02:48,560 --> 03:02:51,119 Speaker 1: colony that was also a slave state. Right, so all 3240 03:02:51,200 --> 03:02:54,040 Speaker 1: of this violence is just it's the same thing that 3241 03:02:54,160 --> 03:02:57,680 Speaker 1: they've been doing since they got there. Like, yeah, I mean, 3242 03:02:57,720 --> 03:02:59,360 Speaker 1: and this is something actually Lula talks about a lot, 3243 03:02:59,440 --> 03:03:00,720 Speaker 1: which is like the people who have been in power 3244 03:03:00,760 --> 03:03:04,360 Speaker 1: for five years are still in power. But I think 3245 03:03:04,400 --> 03:03:08,200 Speaker 1: it's important to understand, like part of how Bollsonaro is 3246 03:03:08,240 --> 03:03:10,000 Speaker 1: able to do what he does is that everyone is 3247 03:03:10,000 --> 03:03:13,360 Speaker 1: already like everyone is already so primed to just like 3248 03:03:13,560 --> 03:03:16,600 Speaker 1: back the fucking army coming in, and like right, like 3249 03:03:16,680 --> 03:03:18,880 Speaker 1: there there's so much racism. There's so much just like 3250 03:03:19,080 --> 03:03:20,840 Speaker 1: like there there, there's this whole set of law and 3251 03:03:20,920 --> 03:03:24,320 Speaker 1: ordership thing that's going on. And the sort of product 3252 03:03:24,360 --> 03:03:27,600 Speaker 1: of all of this is in the n eighteen election, 3253 03:03:28,640 --> 03:03:31,040 Speaker 1: the PT put in basically some right. I mean, he's 3254 03:03:31,080 --> 03:03:33,080 Speaker 1: not some random guy like he he was like like 3255 03:03:33,160 --> 03:03:36,400 Speaker 1: he was like a kind of prominent politician, but they 3256 03:03:36,480 --> 03:03:40,280 Speaker 1: basically run like some guy and he gets club every Bullsonaro. 3257 03:03:41,160 --> 03:03:42,960 Speaker 1: And part of this is there's a lot of stuff 3258 03:03:43,000 --> 03:03:45,560 Speaker 1: that happens here that's like very similar to sort of 3259 03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:48,279 Speaker 1: US this information campaigns, Like there's all these like telegram 3260 03:03:48,360 --> 03:03:51,400 Speaker 1: groups going around where like yeah, his name is Fernando Haddad. 3261 03:03:51,680 --> 03:03:53,200 Speaker 1: There's this whole thing about how he's gonna like turn 3262 03:03:53,280 --> 03:03:58,640 Speaker 1: your kids gay and like he's a Satanist. Um yeah, 3263 03:03:59,080 --> 03:04:05,560 Speaker 1: so and then things interesting, right because I think people, um, 3264 03:04:06,560 --> 03:04:08,720 Speaker 1: there's this analysis, so like we have to see everything 3265 03:04:08,760 --> 03:04:10,959 Speaker 1: through the length of American politics like the Boston aro 3266 03:04:11,120 --> 03:04:15,760 Speaker 1: is the American the Brazilian Trump but like it's and 3267 03:04:15,840 --> 03:04:17,680 Speaker 1: my anority. This is not deep, but like it strikes 3268 03:04:17,720 --> 03:04:21,400 Speaker 1: me that he embraces Catholicism to a degree that is 3269 03:04:21,520 --> 03:04:26,240 Speaker 1: like much greater than like like Trump did religion. I mean, 3270 03:04:26,280 --> 03:04:28,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting. So like the London American contexts has you know, 3271 03:04:28,560 --> 03:04:30,000 Speaker 1: it has this like thing I think you think you 3272 03:04:30,000 --> 03:04:32,240 Speaker 1: know about, which is like it's there. There's this sort 3273 03:04:32,240 --> 03:04:36,080 Speaker 1: of right wing Catholicy evangelical alliance. Yeah that is happening here. 3274 03:04:36,280 --> 03:04:38,240 Speaker 1: And you know because like a whole bunch of of 3275 03:04:38,600 --> 03:04:41,400 Speaker 1: of Bolson Arrow's base is a ship ton of humangelicals. 3276 03:04:41,440 --> 03:04:44,400 Speaker 1: But he he's like there's this sort of shared language 3277 03:04:44,440 --> 03:04:48,160 Speaker 1: around ESPEC, specifically like around eddy abortion stuff, around opposing 3278 03:04:48,240 --> 03:04:51,760 Speaker 1: gender ideology and like feminism and stuff like that, where 3279 03:04:51,800 --> 03:04:53,959 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you can you can do this sort 3280 03:04:54,000 --> 03:04:55,520 Speaker 1: of dog like not even dog wasn't you can just 3281 03:04:55,520 --> 03:04:59,680 Speaker 1: sort of like whistle at them and you know, like 3282 03:04:59,760 --> 03:05:03,480 Speaker 1: it works. And this is sort of like you know 3283 03:05:03,560 --> 03:05:07,920 Speaker 1: I and like okay, like if if I had any 3284 03:05:08,080 --> 03:05:10,879 Speaker 1: energy left in me, I would probably do another episode 3285 03:05:10,959 --> 03:05:13,320 Speaker 1: that was like like two three I could do like 3286 03:05:13,400 --> 03:05:16,000 Speaker 1: a fucking year of episodes. But everything that happened to 3287 03:05:16,000 --> 03:05:21,160 Speaker 1: their Billsonaro, Um, yeah, I'm just gonna sort of hit 3288 03:05:21,480 --> 03:05:25,960 Speaker 1: some of the like low lights, you know what you 3289 03:05:26,080 --> 03:05:30,880 Speaker 1: call it, like Bolsonaro Okay, but Bolsonaro managed to kill 3290 03:05:30,959 --> 03:05:34,640 Speaker 1: less people than Trump did. But and also then Biden did. 3291 03:05:35,120 --> 03:05:38,680 Speaker 1: But Comma, he also killed a fucking unfathomable number of 3292 03:05:38,720 --> 03:05:42,520 Speaker 1: people with COVID, Like he refused to buy vaccines. He 3293 03:05:43,200 --> 03:05:47,800 Speaker 1: like it was like really into the classic Cory clean 3294 03:05:48,080 --> 03:05:52,000 Speaker 1: stuff like tart and stuff like he like personally spread 3295 03:05:52,080 --> 03:05:56,600 Speaker 1: COVID to a bunch of people. Like there's like one 3296 03:05:56,640 --> 03:05:57,680 Speaker 1: of one of I think one of the one of 3297 03:05:57,720 --> 03:06:02,960 Speaker 1: the most famous things that people know about like the 3298 03:06:03,000 --> 03:06:05,200 Speaker 1: sort of bullstion our regime is that the Amazon was 3299 03:06:05,280 --> 03:06:08,400 Speaker 1: fucking burnt because they're a huge part of his base, 3300 03:06:08,920 --> 03:06:12,600 Speaker 1: like basically legal loggers and bulson just like yeah, fuck it, 3301 03:06:12,720 --> 03:06:15,480 Speaker 1: go like destroy all destroy all this indigenous land, fucking 3302 03:06:15,520 --> 03:06:18,960 Speaker 1: kill the people on it, and they've been just like 3303 03:06:19,000 --> 03:06:22,760 Speaker 1: annihilating the Amazon. Didn't he also and I may again 3304 03:06:22,840 --> 03:06:25,160 Speaker 1: be completely off based on this, didn't he break down 3305 03:06:25,200 --> 03:06:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot of the like from fun I it's the 3306 03:06:28,160 --> 03:06:32,880 Speaker 1: Brazilian National Organization that, among other things, does some sometimes 3307 03:06:32,920 --> 03:06:36,840 Speaker 1: problematic but protection of indigenous people's didn't he like a 3308 03:06:36,959 --> 03:06:39,000 Speaker 1: dismantle a lot of the structure of that and trying 3309 03:06:39,040 --> 03:06:43,520 Speaker 1: to defend Yeah, and it did, like Trump right, like 3310 03:06:43,600 --> 03:06:45,600 Speaker 1: it will take years to want to do this bullshit. 3311 03:06:46,240 --> 03:06:48,280 Speaker 1: It might never be not like that. That's like we're 3312 03:06:48,320 --> 03:06:50,800 Speaker 1: running out of sucking time, right we didn't have Yeah, well, 3313 03:06:50,840 --> 03:06:52,000 Speaker 1: and this this is one of the things where like 3314 03:06:52,080 --> 03:06:54,120 Speaker 1: we have to hope Lula actually fucking hold up this 3315 03:06:54,200 --> 03:06:57,720 Speaker 1: word here because like, Okay, so the PACs record on 3316 03:06:57,840 --> 03:07:01,600 Speaker 1: deforestation is way, way and obviously better than Bollsonaro. But 3317 03:07:01,680 --> 03:07:03,000 Speaker 1: it's also true that a lot of the sort of 3318 03:07:03,080 --> 03:07:05,000 Speaker 1: legal framework that Bosonaro has been using to push this 3319 03:07:05,040 --> 03:07:08,120 Speaker 1: stuff like is stuff from the PT And you know, 3320 03:07:08,440 --> 03:07:11,880 Speaker 1: I Lula has pledged to stop deforestation, like I hope 3321 03:07:11,920 --> 03:07:16,879 Speaker 1: he does, or fucking everyone is going to die. Yeah yeah, 3322 03:07:17,080 --> 03:07:20,520 Speaker 1: I mean there there's you know, like everything that was 3323 03:07:20,560 --> 03:07:22,920 Speaker 1: like that I've talked about that was bad before, got 3324 03:07:23,080 --> 03:07:26,000 Speaker 1: enormously worse Bosonaro. The police violence got worse, the military 3325 03:07:26,080 --> 03:07:30,160 Speaker 1: violence got worse. Um, there's just like he's able to 3326 03:07:30,200 --> 03:07:33,280 Speaker 1: sort of like do this like enormous anti communist fervor um. 3327 03:07:34,000 --> 03:07:38,920 Speaker 1: But the problem is that he kills like he kills 3328 03:07:39,000 --> 03:07:41,520 Speaker 1: too many people. That's that's what she's killing hiselfvers he is. 3329 03:07:41,640 --> 03:07:46,960 Speaker 1: But like the thing is like he really just destroys 3330 03:07:47,000 --> 03:07:51,640 Speaker 1: the entire Brazilian economy, like his nukes it. And this 3331 03:07:51,920 --> 03:07:55,320 Speaker 1: costs him the support of a bunch of the ruling class. 3332 03:07:56,360 --> 03:07:59,240 Speaker 1: And this is actually the thing that this is. Like Ultimately, 3333 03:07:59,320 --> 03:08:02,480 Speaker 1: what defeated both to morrow is m like in as 3334 03:08:02,560 --> 03:08:03,840 Speaker 1: far as we could even talk about a being it, 3335 03:08:03,959 --> 03:08:07,240 Speaker 1: what if he did Bolsonaro personally is the fact that 3336 03:08:07,720 --> 03:08:09,959 Speaker 1: like he like he loses it off with the ruling 3337 03:08:10,000 --> 03:08:14,039 Speaker 1: class that when Lula appeals, like Lulula's actual case appeal 3338 03:08:14,080 --> 03:08:16,760 Speaker 1: goes to the Freme Court, they throw it out and 3339 03:08:17,240 --> 03:08:20,160 Speaker 1: say Morrow like turns on him for a bit, although 3340 03:08:20,440 --> 03:08:22,800 Speaker 1: Morrow and it comes back and endorses Bolsonaro in the 3341 03:08:22,840 --> 03:08:25,160 Speaker 1: election because he's a piece of ship. But like, yeah, 3342 03:08:25,360 --> 03:08:27,560 Speaker 1: there's he he loses a bunch of sort of the 3343 03:08:27,600 --> 03:08:31,280 Speaker 1: support of the ruling class, and there's this kind of 3344 03:08:32,120 --> 03:08:33,720 Speaker 1: this is the thing I think is kind of disturbing 3345 03:08:33,760 --> 03:08:38,200 Speaker 1: about this election, even the Lula one, is that Lula 3346 03:08:38,280 --> 03:08:41,120 Speaker 1: did this like giant United French strategy. Right like, he 3347 03:08:41,280 --> 03:08:44,800 Speaker 1: pulled together, like he was recognized by sort of everyone 3348 03:08:44,800 --> 03:08:46,920 Speaker 1: who posts boson arrows, like he's the only person who 3349 03:08:46,959 --> 03:08:49,040 Speaker 1: could stop him. But this means that he's drawing a 3350 03:08:49,080 --> 03:08:52,280 Speaker 1: bunch of support from the right. His his running mate 3351 03:08:52,320 --> 03:08:56,840 Speaker 1: in this election is a guy named Gerald. I mean, yeah, 3352 03:08:57,280 --> 03:09:01,760 Speaker 1: this is a guy that Lula beat by twenty points 3353 03:09:02,280 --> 03:09:07,080 Speaker 1: in an election or thirty points something like that. Like 3354 03:09:07,440 --> 03:09:10,280 Speaker 1: this is literally like a right wing guy. Hulula fucking 3355 03:09:10,320 --> 03:09:13,520 Speaker 1: destroyed an election and he had and Lula brings him 3356 03:09:13,560 --> 03:09:15,039 Speaker 1: on as a running mate because he's trying to sort 3357 03:09:15,080 --> 03:09:19,800 Speaker 1: of appeal to like disaffected Like he's he's running the 3358 03:09:19,840 --> 03:09:23,320 Speaker 1: sort of like Biden suburban strategy, right like, he's doing 3359 03:09:23,360 --> 03:09:25,280 Speaker 1: the like an appeal to sort of moderate voters thing. 3360 03:09:26,560 --> 03:09:28,440 Speaker 1: And like, I mean like, and this is going on 3361 03:09:28,520 --> 03:09:30,320 Speaker 1: to the point where like he's telling people like not 3362 03:09:30,600 --> 03:09:33,200 Speaker 1: to like bring PT flags or like where PT colors 3363 03:09:33,240 --> 03:09:36,760 Speaker 1: to rallies because they're trying to down yeah, because they're 3364 03:09:36,760 --> 03:09:38,360 Speaker 1: trying to downplay the sort of like communism thing. And 3365 03:09:38,400 --> 03:09:42,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't really work because like Bolson Haro's just calling him, 3366 03:09:42,760 --> 03:09:46,160 Speaker 1: everyone's just calling him a communist anyways, right, and and 3367 03:09:46,400 --> 03:09:50,640 Speaker 1: he like squeaks by this fucking election, right, Like, I 3368 03:09:50,680 --> 03:09:52,800 Speaker 1: mean he probably wanted by he probably would have wanted 3369 03:09:52,800 --> 03:09:54,400 Speaker 1: by a couple more percent than the actual vote total. 3370 03:09:54,440 --> 03:09:57,880 Speaker 1: Shoulder han't been voter suppression, but like it was close. 3371 03:09:58,280 --> 03:10:00,400 Speaker 1: And the other thing that's really really bad about this 3372 03:10:00,600 --> 03:10:05,080 Speaker 1: is that I like the right, like Bilsonaro's party like 3373 03:10:05,280 --> 03:10:09,640 Speaker 1: controls the Senate. So and and this is everything right 3374 03:10:09,680 --> 03:10:11,760 Speaker 1: if Bolsono's party can cut it off deals and like 3375 03:10:11,840 --> 03:10:14,360 Speaker 1: jettison Bilsonaro like bilson is um like as a force 3376 03:10:14,520 --> 03:10:17,240 Speaker 1: is still there, right like this this this this sort 3377 03:10:17,280 --> 03:10:20,000 Speaker 1: of like fascist right has consolidated as his own political force. 3378 03:10:20,520 --> 03:10:22,080 Speaker 1: And you know there's a non zero chance that they 3379 03:10:22,120 --> 03:10:24,800 Speaker 1: just impeach Lula, right and this we literally watched this 3380 03:10:24,959 --> 03:10:27,800 Speaker 1: entire fucking cycle that has happened again, like right, like 3381 03:10:27,879 --> 03:10:32,720 Speaker 1: that this kind of ship like this could happen. Um. Yeah, 3382 03:10:33,040 --> 03:10:39,360 Speaker 1: so things are still not great, and yeah, Lula's actual 3383 03:10:39,480 --> 03:10:41,440 Speaker 1: hand to do stuff here is very contract. I should 3384 03:10:41,440 --> 03:10:44,200 Speaker 1: also mention that like I don't know, like there was 3385 03:10:44,280 --> 03:10:48,640 Speaker 1: literally like partying in the streets in like like they 3386 03:10:48,680 --> 03:10:50,800 Speaker 1: were like they were parties in the streets of cities 3387 03:10:50,840 --> 03:10:54,000 Speaker 1: that like he didn't even win like like this this 3388 03:10:54,160 --> 03:10:58,640 Speaker 1: is like he I don't know, like the fact that 3389 03:10:58,720 --> 03:11:03,600 Speaker 1: he won is genuine leave very good, Um I have 3390 03:11:03,920 --> 03:11:06,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what can be done to actually sort 3391 03:11:06,120 --> 03:11:08,280 Speaker 1: of defeat boll snaros am as a structural force because again, 3392 03:11:08,320 --> 03:11:13,080 Speaker 1: like he won like of the vote, right, like that's 3393 03:11:13,160 --> 03:11:18,960 Speaker 1: still there killing like like tens of thousands of his 3394 03:11:19,760 --> 03:11:26,440 Speaker 1: population and being a general ship head. Yeah so yeah, yeah, yeah, 3395 03:11:26,600 --> 03:11:31,360 Speaker 1: they're not I don't know. That's the like, I don't know, 3396 03:11:31,480 --> 03:11:35,320 Speaker 1: like the like actual structural things have to change about 3397 03:11:35,320 --> 03:11:37,680 Speaker 1: both the Brazilian political system, like the Brazilan political system, 3398 03:11:37,720 --> 03:11:40,120 Speaker 1: the police, the military, and the economy have to structurally 3399 03:11:40,200 --> 03:11:42,880 Speaker 1: change or we're or like we're gonna get gonna get 3400 03:11:42,879 --> 03:11:44,840 Speaker 1: another both SNAr. Like this is what's happening in the US, right, 3401 03:11:44,959 --> 03:11:47,600 Speaker 1: Like there hasn't actually been a sort of structural shift 3402 03:11:47,800 --> 03:11:50,400 Speaker 1: in like in the American political systems that we're just 3403 03:11:50,400 --> 03:11:52,680 Speaker 1: gonna get another Trump. Maybe it'll be actual Trump. Who knows, 3404 03:11:52,840 --> 03:11:57,959 Speaker 1: like like like maybe this thing like until until fascism 3405 03:11:58,040 --> 03:12:00,480 Speaker 1: is sort of like class base and base in the 3406 03:12:00,600 --> 03:12:04,120 Speaker 1: state is destroyed, like and and it's it's sort of 3407 03:12:04,200 --> 03:12:07,560 Speaker 1: ideological basins in sort of like righting constructions of the family. 3408 03:12:07,600 --> 03:12:11,959 Speaker 1: It's religious based, like a particular like we're just we're 3409 03:12:12,000 --> 03:12:13,960 Speaker 1: gonna be back here and we're gonna be sort of 3410 03:12:14,040 --> 03:12:18,160 Speaker 1: like continuously teetering between fascism and something that's not fascism 3411 03:12:18,400 --> 03:12:21,840 Speaker 1: but has no way to oppose it, and yeah, yeah, 3412 03:12:21,959 --> 03:12:25,240 Speaker 1: that fucking sucks. Um yeah, but we keep doing it, 3413 03:12:25,360 --> 03:12:28,400 Speaker 1: like we keep trying to defeat fascism by running like 3414 03:12:28,560 --> 03:12:30,840 Speaker 1: closer and closer to fascism to pull away like the 3415 03:12:30,959 --> 03:12:34,240 Speaker 1: marginal fascist. Okay, so here here's the thing. I one thing, 3416 03:12:34,320 --> 03:12:36,320 Speaker 1: one thing I will give to Lula is that like, okay, 3417 03:12:36,920 --> 03:12:39,640 Speaker 1: his way of doing this was that a bunch of 3418 03:12:39,680 --> 03:12:43,400 Speaker 1: people found pictures of Bolsaaro and illuminate like like with 3419 03:12:43,480 --> 03:12:45,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of a lout, like a bunch of like 3420 03:12:45,879 --> 03:12:49,680 Speaker 1: in Freemason rooms with a bunch of Freemasons. And this 3421 03:12:49,840 --> 03:12:53,640 Speaker 1: I think genuinely may have cost Bolsonaro, Like like there's 3422 03:12:53,640 --> 03:12:55,640 Speaker 1: an argument this cost bulson Arrow like a bunch of 3423 03:12:55,720 --> 03:12:58,760 Speaker 1: election points with their own base because people found this people. 3424 03:12:58,760 --> 03:13:00,880 Speaker 1: There's another thing like like the day, like a couple 3425 03:13:00,879 --> 03:13:03,360 Speaker 1: of days before the election, like an old TV clip 3426 03:13:03,440 --> 03:13:05,879 Speaker 1: turned up a Bulson arms out of nowhere, saying quote, 3427 03:13:05,920 --> 03:13:09,640 Speaker 1: I would eat an Indian. Yes, yes, this started to acountabism. 3428 03:13:09,640 --> 03:13:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean this is like like this is really about 3429 03:13:11,200 --> 03:13:13,000 Speaker 1: his racism, right, but you're starting to a whole cannibalism thing. 3430 03:13:13,040 --> 03:13:16,560 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court ruled, like I think incredibly cowardly because 3431 03:13:16,600 --> 03:13:19,600 Speaker 1: he did say this is ruled that he couldn't run, 3432 03:13:19,680 --> 03:13:22,160 Speaker 1: ad that that Lula couldn't run, as calling him a cannibal. 3433 03:13:23,360 --> 03:13:25,240 Speaker 1: But you know, like like there was something like this 3434 03:13:25,320 --> 03:13:27,760 Speaker 1: like we're like like suddenly that like there were like 3435 03:13:27,959 --> 03:13:29,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, like this is and I will applau 3436 03:13:29,440 --> 03:13:32,840 Speaker 1: Loula for this, like he hasn't really like he could 3437 03:13:32,840 --> 03:13:36,520 Speaker 1: have run an election where he just fucking threw his 3438 03:13:36,640 --> 03:13:39,240 Speaker 1: entire base under the bus and was like insanely racist 3439 03:13:39,720 --> 03:13:42,520 Speaker 1: and was like no, I hate queer people and I 3440 03:13:42,600 --> 03:13:44,560 Speaker 1: hate women, and like he could have he could have 3441 03:13:44,640 --> 03:13:46,560 Speaker 1: run a camp, he could have run a Boson companion. 3442 03:13:46,600 --> 03:13:49,520 Speaker 1: He didn't, right, And and in so far as he 3443 03:13:49,600 --> 03:13:51,720 Speaker 1: was tapping into right wing ship, he was tapping into hey, 3444 03:13:51,760 --> 03:13:54,000 Speaker 1: this guy is a fucking this guy's in Freemason robes. 3445 03:13:54,680 --> 03:13:56,320 Speaker 1: It was sort it was sort of funny ship that 3446 03:13:56,480 --> 03:13:58,360 Speaker 1: like it's probably not great that this is where the 3447 03:13:58,400 --> 03:14:02,480 Speaker 1: political sphere is, but like you know, okay, Bossonaro literally 3448 03:14:02,560 --> 03:14:06,560 Speaker 1: saying he would eat a human being is like I 3449 03:14:06,600 --> 03:14:08,960 Speaker 1: would rather that be the kind of insane right wing 3450 03:14:09,040 --> 03:14:11,560 Speaker 1: thing that's going around than like, I don't know, cueer 3451 03:14:11,600 --> 03:14:13,760 Speaker 1: people are going to murder your children or something, which 3452 03:14:13,800 --> 03:14:16,960 Speaker 1: is like the normal ship that Yeah you hear. Yeah, 3453 03:14:17,040 --> 03:14:18,880 Speaker 1: and it's in sixteen, it's not like he said it 3454 03:14:18,920 --> 03:14:25,720 Speaker 1: when he was eighteen six years ago. Yeah, I think 3455 03:14:25,720 --> 03:14:31,040 Speaker 1: he said it's like a journalist as well, right, Yeah, 3456 03:14:31,560 --> 03:14:34,760 Speaker 1: it's a fucking terrible guy. You can imagine Donald Trump 3457 03:14:34,840 --> 03:14:39,959 Speaker 1: saying he'd eat someone probably, I think I think Donald Trump, 3458 03:14:40,000 --> 03:14:44,520 Speaker 1: you'd have to prompt Bosaro just unprompted. There's no connection here. 3459 03:14:44,800 --> 03:14:48,039 Speaker 1: He was just like, fuck it, No, I am so racist. 3460 03:14:48,120 --> 03:14:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say this. I don't know. I wish, 3461 03:14:53,200 --> 03:14:56,440 Speaker 1: I yeah, I wish. I wish good luck and good 3462 03:14:56,480 --> 03:15:00,920 Speaker 1: fortune and yeah, like Vick to reach it. Everyone in 3463 03:15:00,959 --> 03:15:05,480 Speaker 1: Brazil who is fighting. Yeah, fu Bolsonaro, I help all 3464 03:15:05,520 --> 03:15:09,199 Speaker 1: these I hope he fucking dies of COVID finally. Um yeah, 3465 03:15:09,360 --> 03:15:11,600 Speaker 1: and I hope, I hope, but I really do hope 3466 03:15:11,600 --> 03:15:14,960 Speaker 1: the bulls narrows can be defeated. Um, yeah, I don't know, 3467 03:15:15,280 --> 03:15:20,080 Speaker 1: like make better choices, pt please God, we can't do 3468 03:15:20,240 --> 03:15:23,039 Speaker 1: this again. Yeah, I have both. The people in Brazil 3469 03:15:23,040 --> 03:15:26,520 Speaker 1: would continue to be impacted by this this bullshit. Can yeah, 3470 03:15:26,760 --> 03:15:30,200 Speaker 1: have better meaningful improvements to their lives yea. And the 3471 03:15:30,280 --> 03:15:32,280 Speaker 1: selection and I mean I will say, like, like this 3472 03:15:32,520 --> 03:15:37,240 Speaker 1: is proof that like bullsonaroism isn't isn't undefeatable, right, Like 3473 03:15:37,440 --> 03:15:40,119 Speaker 1: it's like the fact that he wasn't able to pull 3474 03:15:40,120 --> 03:15:44,080 Speaker 1: off the military qu right, like it is beatable. It's 3475 03:15:44,160 --> 03:15:47,680 Speaker 1: just it's very very hard. And yeah, I mean then 3476 03:15:47,720 --> 03:15:49,520 Speaker 1: that this is true or fascist and everywhere. Right, it's 3477 03:15:49,520 --> 03:15:52,080 Speaker 1: hard to beat, but it can be stopped. And we 3478 03:15:52,200 --> 03:15:55,480 Speaker 1: are going to because the alternative is the fucking annihilation 3479 03:15:55,680 --> 03:16:15,400 Speaker 1: of the earth. So yeah, fuck them, We're gonna win. Uh, 3480 03:16:17,000 --> 03:16:20,360 Speaker 1: it could happen. Here is a podcast that you're listening 3481 03:16:20,480 --> 03:16:23,560 Speaker 1: to right now. If this is a surprise to you, 3482 03:16:23,800 --> 03:16:27,400 Speaker 1: if you if you thought this was the Joe Rogan experience, 3483 03:16:28,080 --> 03:16:31,959 Speaker 1: let me assure you everyone here does eat a diet 3484 03:16:32,080 --> 03:16:34,360 Speaker 1: of nothing but elk meat. Uh. And to talk to 3485 03:16:34,480 --> 03:16:41,200 Speaker 1: me about the health value of elk meat, uh is UM, no, 3486 03:16:41,640 --> 03:16:46,360 Speaker 1: uh so about I don't know, a week or so ago. Um, 3487 03:16:46,800 --> 03:16:49,920 Speaker 1: we're talking with Sarah Young. Sarah, how are you doing good? 3488 03:16:50,040 --> 03:16:53,400 Speaker 1: How are you? I'm I'm pretty good. Sarah. You're a 3489 03:16:53,480 --> 03:16:56,760 Speaker 1: deputy features editor at The Verge. You are a lawyer 3490 03:16:56,879 --> 03:16:59,920 Speaker 1: and a journalist. So you have embraced the two commos 3491 03:17:00,120 --> 03:17:05,320 Speaker 1: cursed vocations in two um, and you you've number one 3492 03:17:05,520 --> 03:17:09,920 Speaker 1: most recently written an incredible piece UM about the Portland's 3493 03:17:09,959 --> 03:17:17,400 Speaker 1: Van abductions, which is like brutal and um, very important 3494 03:17:17,440 --> 03:17:19,800 Speaker 1: for the Verge. People ought to check it out. It is. Uh. 3495 03:17:20,320 --> 03:17:22,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I've had trouble getting through all of 3496 03:17:22,480 --> 03:17:25,880 Speaker 1: it because it is very good and because I was there. 3497 03:17:26,040 --> 03:17:28,920 Speaker 1: But everyone needs to read it. It's an important piece. 3498 03:17:29,360 --> 03:17:32,120 Speaker 1: We're not talking about that today. We're talking about a 3499 03:17:32,160 --> 03:17:35,560 Speaker 1: post that you made on the Twitter dot com about 3500 03:17:35,560 --> 03:17:37,680 Speaker 1: a week or so ago that I I messaged you 3501 03:17:37,720 --> 03:17:39,440 Speaker 1: about wanting to to chat about you want to kind 3502 03:17:39,440 --> 03:17:42,000 Speaker 1: of talk about what that post was and what you 3503 03:17:42,080 --> 03:17:46,000 Speaker 1: were trying to get across. Yeah, the audience. So if 3504 03:17:46,040 --> 03:17:50,000 Speaker 1: you live in Portland right now, it's um, it's absolutely 3505 03:17:50,040 --> 03:17:57,560 Speaker 1: fucking rancid. Like I think the discourse, well, sometimes sometimes 3506 03:17:57,600 --> 03:18:01,040 Speaker 1: a city, but the discourse is rancid. Uh. It's like 3507 03:18:01,160 --> 03:18:03,200 Speaker 1: this in a lot of other cities as well. Um, 3508 03:18:04,280 --> 03:18:07,320 Speaker 1: but you know Portland is like it's the discourse around 3509 03:18:07,360 --> 03:18:11,040 Speaker 1: homeless people, right yeah. Yeah. Every every conversation you have 3510 03:18:11,280 --> 03:18:14,560 Speaker 1: with any random person, it's like eventually goes to oh, 3511 03:18:14,640 --> 03:18:18,160 Speaker 1: it's gotten so bad here lately, and it's always about 3512 03:18:18,240 --> 03:18:22,280 Speaker 1: homeless people. Um. And they it always goes to this 3513 03:18:22,440 --> 03:18:25,840 Speaker 1: place where they're like, oh, we should start rounding people 3514 03:18:25,959 --> 03:18:28,840 Speaker 1: up into camps and getting rid of them. And it's 3515 03:18:28,879 --> 03:18:31,640 Speaker 1: like people are a little too excited to literally murder 3516 03:18:31,720 --> 03:18:36,320 Speaker 1: homeless people. You get just saying the most insane things 3517 03:18:36,400 --> 03:18:38,040 Speaker 1: like oh, I'm not going to break my car if 3518 03:18:38,080 --> 03:18:42,400 Speaker 1: I see one of those homeless people. It's it's awful 3519 03:18:43,160 --> 03:18:49,040 Speaker 1: and like, yeah, it's really really awful and like and 3520 03:18:49,160 --> 03:18:52,240 Speaker 1: then you get people going like, oh, well you know 3521 03:18:52,360 --> 03:18:54,960 Speaker 1: how things are, and like pulling out murders that have 3522 03:18:55,040 --> 03:18:58,640 Speaker 1: happened in like New York, um of Asian women at 3523 03:18:58,720 --> 03:19:00,760 Speaker 1: me to like just a by why it is that 3524 03:19:00,840 --> 03:19:03,000 Speaker 1: I need to start supporting the cops and so on 3525 03:19:03,080 --> 03:19:11,800 Speaker 1: and so forth. Um, And it's just there's this thing 3526 03:19:11,920 --> 03:19:16,360 Speaker 1: where I think that they're well meaning leftists really want 3527 03:19:16,400 --> 03:19:20,680 Speaker 1: to sort of pull out, like let's humanize almost people, 3528 03:19:20,760 --> 03:19:23,440 Speaker 1: which like, yes, but the people you're talking to they 3529 03:19:23,520 --> 03:19:28,040 Speaker 1: don't deal with empathy actually, right, they already don't see 3530 03:19:28,120 --> 03:19:30,880 Speaker 1: most of the population as people. So what you're doing 3531 03:19:31,040 --> 03:19:33,320 Speaker 1: is you're not even speaking the language that they speak. 3532 03:19:34,480 --> 03:19:38,000 Speaker 1: The issue for me is that what they're what people 3533 03:19:38,080 --> 03:19:41,760 Speaker 1: are doing when they dehumanize the homeless or like turn 3534 03:19:41,879 --> 03:19:43,840 Speaker 1: them into like a problem that you can just sweep 3535 03:19:43,879 --> 03:19:49,119 Speaker 1: away or like kill or put in danger or drop 3536 03:19:49,160 --> 03:19:51,240 Speaker 1: into a camp where they're more likely to die or 3537 03:19:51,320 --> 03:19:56,720 Speaker 1: get sick or be harmed. Um. It's it's that you're 3538 03:19:57,120 --> 03:20:01,360 Speaker 1: making a vast class of people bowl based on like 3539 03:20:01,480 --> 03:20:07,040 Speaker 1: superficial characteristics. Right. Um, they might be dirty, they're intense, whatever, 3540 03:20:07,879 --> 03:20:10,520 Speaker 1: you felt threatened by one of them once, So now 3541 03:20:11,240 --> 03:20:14,440 Speaker 1: everyone who's ever been homeless deserves to have a worse 3542 03:20:14,520 --> 03:20:19,440 Speaker 1: off life because you didn't feel great about it this 3543 03:20:19,640 --> 03:20:25,080 Speaker 1: one time and or two times. And it's it's really 3544 03:20:25,160 --> 03:20:29,560 Speaker 1: absurd to me because like, yeah, I I've had many 3545 03:20:29,840 --> 03:20:32,160 Speaker 1: instances in my life where I haven't felt very safe, 3546 03:20:32,800 --> 03:20:35,920 Speaker 1: um because of someone who was homeless, because of someone 3547 03:20:35,959 --> 03:20:38,000 Speaker 1: who is an addict. Um, I mean I'm a small 3548 03:20:38,040 --> 03:20:41,280 Speaker 1: Asian woman. I take public transitu It is, the vibes 3549 03:20:41,320 --> 03:20:44,480 Speaker 1: are off in every fucking city right now for people 3550 03:20:44,520 --> 03:20:48,080 Speaker 1: who look like me. Um, But that doesn't mean that 3551 03:20:48,280 --> 03:20:52,880 Speaker 1: everyone who looks like the person who's making me uncomfortable 3552 03:20:53,760 --> 03:20:57,480 Speaker 1: deserves to be swept up into a fucking camp. And 3553 03:20:58,360 --> 03:21:00,440 Speaker 1: in fact, like if I like, roll the hat back 3554 03:21:00,480 --> 03:21:02,680 Speaker 1: and look at sort of, oh, let's look at people 3555 03:21:02,720 --> 03:21:07,879 Speaker 1: who have made me feel threatened, afraid whatever. I've gone 3556 03:21:07,920 --> 03:21:12,040 Speaker 1: through big old sprints in my life where I'm getting 3557 03:21:12,040 --> 03:21:14,760 Speaker 1: a lot of death threats from white supremacists. I mean, 3558 03:21:15,120 --> 03:21:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've life too. I can see I see it. 3559 03:21:18,680 --> 03:21:21,800 Speaker 1: But like you, I don't know, because you're a woman 3560 03:21:21,920 --> 03:21:24,320 Speaker 1: writing on the internet, like you'll get more in a 3561 03:21:24,400 --> 03:21:26,640 Speaker 1: couple of months than I do in an average like year. 3562 03:21:27,280 --> 03:21:30,720 Speaker 1: I mean it depends, right, Like it depends. I was 3563 03:21:30,840 --> 03:21:35,360 Speaker 1: just looking at your mentions. Yeah, I don't know. I 3564 03:21:35,640 --> 03:21:37,320 Speaker 1: don't really like to carefully, so I don't even know 3565 03:21:37,360 --> 03:21:39,600 Speaker 1: what the numbers are. Like this is, I did have 3566 03:21:40,120 --> 03:21:44,640 Speaker 1: an incredible, like six month period where it was really 3567 03:21:44,720 --> 03:21:49,600 Speaker 1: intense because Tucker Carlson was like putting me on his 3568 03:21:49,680 --> 03:21:53,640 Speaker 1: show for a while, so it was it was really bad, 3569 03:21:53,800 --> 03:21:56,800 Speaker 1: like people like some guy called into my office and 3570 03:21:57,680 --> 03:22:00,280 Speaker 1: threatened to fire bomb it, and the people who got 3571 03:22:00,320 --> 03:22:02,600 Speaker 1: the phone call like, we're stressed out enough that they 3572 03:22:02,640 --> 03:22:05,800 Speaker 1: called the cops and there's like a police report and like, um, 3573 03:22:07,520 --> 03:22:09,040 Speaker 1: there was a bunch of stuff that happened during this 3574 03:22:09,160 --> 03:22:13,280 Speaker 1: period that was pretty scary and uh. And it was 3575 03:22:13,360 --> 03:22:17,240 Speaker 1: always like guys who all sort of looked the same, Right, 3576 03:22:17,280 --> 03:22:19,880 Speaker 1: It's like all the you know, the Oakley sunglasses, like 3577 03:22:20,080 --> 03:22:22,280 Speaker 1: taking a selfie of themselves in the car, like that 3578 03:22:22,440 --> 03:22:28,200 Speaker 1: sort of stereotype. Right, And you know, I gotta say, 3579 03:22:28,680 --> 03:22:32,400 Speaker 1: for a while, i'd see that, like that little profile picture, 3580 03:22:32,440 --> 03:22:35,240 Speaker 1: I'd see someone in person, and like my heart would 3581 03:22:35,240 --> 03:22:38,040 Speaker 1: start beating faster. Right. Took a while for me to 3582 03:22:38,160 --> 03:22:43,000 Speaker 1: like be able to dial that back. Um, during that 3583 03:22:43,120 --> 03:22:46,680 Speaker 1: six month period, I'd hear someone yellow racial slur and 3584 03:22:46,879 --> 03:22:49,440 Speaker 1: I would almost have a panic attack because I f like, 3585 03:22:49,480 --> 03:22:53,520 Speaker 1: oh no, like like someone's gonna come and make good 3586 03:22:53,560 --> 03:22:59,640 Speaker 1: on these threats, and I don't, like, I don't want 3587 03:22:59,680 --> 03:23:04,960 Speaker 1: to round people up into camps for looking like a 3588 03:23:05,080 --> 03:23:09,600 Speaker 1: shitty racist, suburban nite white cut. Yeah, It's like that's 3589 03:23:09,879 --> 03:23:13,080 Speaker 1: that's because I'm not a fucking Nazi. Like it's like 3590 03:23:13,480 --> 03:23:17,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what you've experienced. You're like what legitimate 3591 03:23:17,440 --> 03:23:20,400 Speaker 1: harm you faced from people who look a certain way, 3592 03:23:20,560 --> 03:23:24,480 Speaker 1: Like you don't round them up into camps or like 3593 03:23:25,000 --> 03:23:27,000 Speaker 1: talk about like how you're not going to break on 3594 03:23:27,120 --> 03:23:30,840 Speaker 1: the straw on the street in your car. I'm glad 3595 03:23:30,879 --> 03:23:33,880 Speaker 1: I was happy for kind of your perspective on the matter, 3596 03:23:33,920 --> 03:23:36,280 Speaker 1: because I do try Like whenever people talk about how 3597 03:23:36,320 --> 03:23:39,080 Speaker 1: scary Portland is are how scary the homeless camps are, Like, 3598 03:23:39,200 --> 03:23:41,320 Speaker 1: the thing I want to say is like, like I 3599 03:23:41,640 --> 03:23:43,959 Speaker 1: have like five or six different running routes in the city, 3600 03:23:44,160 --> 03:23:47,040 Speaker 1: and most of them have homeless encampments on them, and 3601 03:23:47,240 --> 03:23:48,760 Speaker 1: I run through them at night. I went through them 3602 03:23:48,800 --> 03:23:51,880 Speaker 1: at the day, never had a problem. Um. You know, 3603 03:23:52,000 --> 03:23:54,440 Speaker 1: sometimes there's like trash, and I would like it if 3604 03:23:54,440 --> 03:23:57,240 Speaker 1: it were cleaner, But also primarily the people cleaning up 3605 03:23:57,280 --> 03:24:01,080 Speaker 1: are usually like autonomously organized groups of formerly houseless folks, 3606 03:24:01,120 --> 03:24:02,560 Speaker 1: which is the thing that happens in a couple of 3607 03:24:02,560 --> 03:24:06,120 Speaker 1: the neighborhoods that I go to, um and like, But 3608 03:24:06,280 --> 03:24:08,480 Speaker 1: at the same time, I don't want to bring that 3609 03:24:08,959 --> 03:24:11,000 Speaker 1: in when there's an argument about it, because like I'm 3610 03:24:11,080 --> 03:24:14,040 Speaker 1: a six ft three pound white guy, right, Like, of 3611 03:24:14,120 --> 03:24:17,279 Speaker 1: course I'm as a general rule, in a lot of situations, 3612 03:24:17,400 --> 03:24:19,560 Speaker 1: I don't feel worried what other people do because I'm 3613 03:24:19,560 --> 03:24:22,640 Speaker 1: a big white dude and that's um. But what I 3614 03:24:22,720 --> 03:24:26,240 Speaker 1: will say, I had an experience a couple of months back. 3615 03:24:26,400 --> 03:24:29,160 Speaker 1: A person that I live near, like a neighbor of mine, 3616 03:24:29,280 --> 03:24:32,080 Speaker 1: is a young woman within like a six month old infant, 3617 03:24:32,680 --> 03:24:36,640 Speaker 1: and she was out jogging on one of the trails 3618 03:24:36,840 --> 03:24:42,400 Speaker 1: near our house, and two guys uh in new Kawasaki 3619 03:24:42,840 --> 03:24:45,320 Speaker 1: like motorcycles, dirt bikes, whatever you want to call them. 3620 03:24:45,800 --> 03:24:48,720 Speaker 1: I assume rich kids because these were very new bikes 3621 03:24:49,440 --> 03:24:51,160 Speaker 1: drove up and shot at her and her baby with 3622 03:24:51,200 --> 03:24:55,160 Speaker 1: BB guns, hit her in the face, nearly hit her baby. Um. 3623 03:24:55,959 --> 03:25:00,480 Speaker 1: And it was like homeless folks and people at an 3624 03:25:00,480 --> 03:25:03,000 Speaker 1: illegal skate park who came to her aid and like 3625 03:25:03,160 --> 03:25:05,800 Speaker 1: made sure she was okay. And when I got out there, 3626 03:25:05,840 --> 03:25:07,800 Speaker 1: because I I rolled out there with a fucking beat 3627 03:25:07,879 --> 03:25:09,920 Speaker 1: stick and a handgun just to be like, if I 3628 03:25:10,040 --> 03:25:14,040 Speaker 1: see these motherfucker's, we're gonna have words. And I started 3629 03:25:14,120 --> 03:25:16,280 Speaker 1: talking to homeless folks that I knew on the route 3630 03:25:16,320 --> 03:25:18,400 Speaker 1: who were all like, yeah, those people like they come 3631 03:25:18,440 --> 03:25:20,000 Speaker 1: by to shoot at us and it's and I have 3632 03:25:20,120 --> 03:25:22,400 Speaker 1: heard this in multiple encampments, of heard this at Laura 3633 03:25:22,480 --> 03:25:25,400 Speaker 1: Durst a number of places that like kids from the 3634 03:25:25,440 --> 03:25:27,640 Speaker 1: suburbs will come in to shoot homeless people with baby 3635 03:25:27,720 --> 03:25:31,120 Speaker 1: guns and mace them, and um, I have I'm not 3636 03:25:31,160 --> 03:25:34,000 Speaker 1: gonna say again. I have also been in a situation 3637 03:25:34,080 --> 03:25:37,160 Speaker 1: where like an agitated houseless woman was like swinging a 3638 03:25:37,240 --> 03:25:40,680 Speaker 1: machette at some folks, and you know, everything was de escalated. 3639 03:25:40,720 --> 03:25:42,640 Speaker 1: But like, I get it. The fact that there are 3640 03:25:42,720 --> 03:25:45,959 Speaker 1: people out there who are having like mental health difficulty 3641 03:25:46,040 --> 03:25:48,080 Speaker 1: means that people are going to have encounters that can 3642 03:25:48,120 --> 03:25:51,480 Speaker 1: be frightening. Um. But by and large, the people that 3643 03:25:51,680 --> 03:25:55,840 Speaker 1: I find myself most threatened by are like kids, people 3644 03:25:55,879 --> 03:25:57,959 Speaker 1: like those assholes rolling by and shooting people with BB 3645 03:25:58,080 --> 03:26:01,640 Speaker 1: guns and of course folks draw having gigantic trucks in 3646 03:26:01,720 --> 03:26:05,920 Speaker 1: tiny streets like assholes often while wasted. Um, Like, those 3647 03:26:05,959 --> 03:26:09,680 Speaker 1: are the things that scare me in Portland's not the encampments. Yeah, 3648 03:26:09,959 --> 03:26:15,400 Speaker 1: And honestly, like there there are some increasing safety issues 3649 03:26:15,480 --> 03:26:17,840 Speaker 1: in Portland, but like a lot of it is also 3650 03:26:17,920 --> 03:26:21,160 Speaker 1: just like from cars, right, like it is a it's 3651 03:26:21,200 --> 03:26:23,000 Speaker 1: more there's more of a car culture than there used 3652 03:26:23,000 --> 03:26:27,280 Speaker 1: to be. UM, and people get hit and uh, they 3653 03:26:27,360 --> 03:26:30,560 Speaker 1: go to the hospital or they die, Like it's it. 3654 03:26:30,720 --> 03:26:33,680 Speaker 1: There's like they're they're big changes in the city for sure, 3655 03:26:34,120 --> 03:26:38,360 Speaker 1: but like it's there's so much focus on homelessness as 3656 03:26:38,400 --> 03:26:40,160 Speaker 1: being like the root of all of that, and like, 3657 03:26:40,720 --> 03:26:43,119 Speaker 1: I don't know, they'll say, oh, Portland has gotten so bad, 3658 03:26:43,200 --> 03:26:45,480 Speaker 1: and the same breath as like talking about how high 3659 03:26:45,520 --> 03:26:49,280 Speaker 1: rents are or like how expensive houses have gotten just 3660 03:26:49,480 --> 03:26:54,200 Speaker 1: not even connecting those two things, right, Like why is 3661 03:26:54,280 --> 03:26:58,320 Speaker 1: it that housing is so expensive now? Like clearly people 3662 03:26:58,360 --> 03:27:03,080 Speaker 1: are placing bets on realist state either that or just 3663 03:27:03,560 --> 03:27:06,920 Speaker 1: we haven't built out enough. Could that be something? Um? 3664 03:27:07,240 --> 03:27:09,320 Speaker 1: Or maybe things aren't as bad as you think, and 3665 03:27:09,440 --> 03:27:13,600 Speaker 1: it's it's a desirable place to live. Um it's really 3666 03:27:14,000 --> 03:27:19,240 Speaker 1: like it is. It's extremely frustrating. UM. I. I also 3667 03:27:19,320 --> 03:27:23,400 Speaker 1: think that there's this weird thing where you just don't 3668 03:27:23,440 --> 03:27:27,520 Speaker 1: really think about the fact that you might have one 3669 03:27:27,640 --> 03:27:32,600 Speaker 1: or two encounters where it's upsetting you feel scared, and 3670 03:27:32,720 --> 03:27:35,959 Speaker 1: then like the vast majority of people who are unhoused 3671 03:27:36,480 --> 03:27:38,440 Speaker 1: are just trying to stay the funk out of your way, 3672 03:27:39,360 --> 03:27:43,000 Speaker 1: right And like there, you're not going to see them, 3673 03:27:43,040 --> 03:27:45,280 Speaker 1: you're not going to talk to them unless you go 3674 03:27:45,360 --> 03:27:47,000 Speaker 1: out of your way to talk to them and reach out, 3675 03:27:47,680 --> 03:27:51,240 Speaker 1: and like they're probably scared of you because they don't 3676 03:27:51,280 --> 03:27:53,760 Speaker 1: know who you are, Like you're a stranger. You might 3677 03:27:53,800 --> 03:27:56,840 Speaker 1: be one of those assholes on Kawasaki's like out to 3678 03:27:57,480 --> 03:28:02,480 Speaker 1: to shoot you, out to shoot them, And it's it's 3679 03:28:02,640 --> 03:28:06,600 Speaker 1: really frustrating, Like it's halfway. I don't know. Some some 3680 03:28:06,720 --> 03:28:09,359 Speaker 1: of the people who buy into this kind of discourse 3681 03:28:09,400 --> 03:28:13,000 Speaker 1: are just outright terrible human beings, right, Yeah, they're they're 3682 03:28:13,000 --> 03:28:15,560 Speaker 1: just fashion, they're just they're just fast. This is useful. 3683 03:28:15,879 --> 03:28:19,800 Speaker 1: But then there's like it's really frustrating how many people 3684 03:28:19,879 --> 03:28:21,840 Speaker 1: in the city right now are just useful idiots for 3685 03:28:21,959 --> 03:28:26,280 Speaker 1: the fascists have just like gone down that gone down 3686 03:28:26,320 --> 03:28:29,800 Speaker 1: that rabbit hole and aren't thinking past like what it 3687 03:28:29,959 --> 03:28:33,400 Speaker 1: means to quote unquote take care of the homeless problem, 3688 03:28:34,520 --> 03:28:37,199 Speaker 1: Like what do you what do you want to do here? 3689 03:28:37,879 --> 03:28:41,120 Speaker 1: What do you actually want to do? Um? Where are 3690 03:28:41,160 --> 03:28:43,520 Speaker 1: these people going to go? Like what's going to happen 3691 03:28:43,600 --> 03:28:49,840 Speaker 1: to them? And it's it's super frustrating. We're focusing on 3692 03:28:49,959 --> 03:28:52,200 Speaker 1: Portland because it's where we live. But all of these 3693 03:28:52,240 --> 03:28:54,600 Speaker 1: things are evidence of like broader trends. You can see 3694 03:28:54,600 --> 03:28:56,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the same tactics being used in Los 3695 03:28:56,640 --> 03:29:01,200 Speaker 1: Angeles and Austin, um in Minneapolis, and and one of 3696 03:29:01,280 --> 03:29:04,160 Speaker 1: the things is kind of this conflation of like disorder, 3697 03:29:05,000 --> 03:29:10,400 Speaker 1: drug use, homelessness with like deadly violence and a number 3698 03:29:10,440 --> 03:29:13,440 Speaker 1: of things like we've talked about kind of jailing and 3699 03:29:13,879 --> 03:29:16,520 Speaker 1: putting into camps the homeless is is one thing people 3700 03:29:16,560 --> 03:29:20,279 Speaker 1: suggest There's also a lot of like suggestions around massively 3701 03:29:20,400 --> 03:29:24,360 Speaker 1: increasing the number of police. And this all also goes 3702 03:29:24,440 --> 03:29:27,480 Speaker 1: into you know, you've got this kind of series of 3703 03:29:27,840 --> 03:29:32,880 Speaker 1: of right wing UH coups against elected leaders who have 3704 03:29:33,000 --> 03:29:35,480 Speaker 1: any kind of other suggestions. We saw this in San 3705 03:29:35,520 --> 03:29:38,600 Speaker 1: Francisco with the DHS abode and the police like just 3706 03:29:38,800 --> 03:29:42,959 Speaker 1: refusing to enforce like the law when they were when 3707 03:29:43,000 --> 03:29:46,360 Speaker 1: CESSA was attempting to carry things out in a different way. 3708 03:29:46,400 --> 03:29:48,440 Speaker 1: And like what we're seeing in Portland right now, we've 3709 03:29:48,520 --> 03:29:53,720 Speaker 1: got um a city Commissioner Joan Hardesty, who UH number 3710 03:29:53,800 --> 03:29:57,920 Speaker 1: one is the only black woman in the city council UM, 3711 03:29:58,280 --> 03:30:01,320 Speaker 1: the only person on the city council who rents UH 3712 03:30:01,440 --> 03:30:03,120 Speaker 1: and the only person in the city council, who is 3713 03:30:03,120 --> 03:30:06,200 Speaker 1: in debt and who is endured. And I'm not gonna 3714 03:30:06,240 --> 03:30:08,960 Speaker 1: say she's a perfect counselor a perfect politician. There's plenty 3715 03:30:08,959 --> 03:30:12,920 Speaker 1: of things to criticize Hardesty over um, but there has been, 3716 03:30:13,000 --> 03:30:15,520 Speaker 1: like number one, this kind of unhinged campaign of attacking 3717 03:30:15,560 --> 03:30:17,959 Speaker 1: her because of the fact that, like, her financial situation 3718 03:30:18,080 --> 03:30:21,200 Speaker 1: isn't great, which I see actually as a plus, um, 3719 03:30:21,760 --> 03:30:24,200 Speaker 1: because a lot of people in Portland are in rough 3720 03:30:24,280 --> 03:30:26,760 Speaker 1: financial condition. Maybe it's nice if they're represented on the 3721 03:30:26,800 --> 03:30:31,120 Speaker 1: fucking city council. But also she's instituted as people keep 3722 03:30:31,200 --> 03:30:34,440 Speaker 1: fetching about, you know, violence and gun violence, which are 3723 03:30:34,480 --> 03:30:36,720 Speaker 1: problems that have gotten worse in Portland. Although it is 3724 03:30:36,720 --> 03:30:38,840 Speaker 1: important to not Portland is one of the safest cities 3725 03:30:38,879 --> 03:30:41,480 Speaker 1: in the entire United States, even after the quote unquote 3726 03:30:41,520 --> 03:30:44,200 Speaker 1: surge and violent crime. I don't think that mitigates that. 3727 03:30:44,280 --> 03:30:47,720 Speaker 1: I just think it's important to keep like things in perspective. 3728 03:30:47,920 --> 03:30:52,280 Speaker 1: But Hardesty has instituted the only effective program that has 3729 03:30:52,320 --> 03:30:55,160 Speaker 1: reduced gun violence in the city of Portland in the 3730 03:30:55,240 --> 03:30:59,560 Speaker 1: recent past, which was essentially a series of traffic calming measures. Right, 3731 03:30:59,680 --> 03:31:01,520 Speaker 1: Like think that's probably a fair way to say it. 3732 03:31:01,600 --> 03:31:04,240 Speaker 1: It was sort of altering the way in which UM 3733 03:31:04,600 --> 03:31:07,280 Speaker 1: traffic worked in a neighborhood to kind of try and 3734 03:31:07,400 --> 03:31:12,240 Speaker 1: reduce some of the situations that were like leading to violence. 3735 03:31:12,520 --> 03:31:17,480 Speaker 1: And Um, she's undergoing this massive attack right now by 3736 03:31:19,240 --> 03:31:21,480 Speaker 1: a candidate, a right wing candidate. I mean he, like 3737 03:31:21,600 --> 03:31:24,600 Speaker 1: everyone who runs importantly, he claims to be a Democrat. Um, 3738 03:31:24,879 --> 03:31:28,720 Speaker 1: he's donated to Republicans. He is called named Rene Gonzalez, 3739 03:31:28,720 --> 03:31:30,880 Speaker 1: who's being backed by a lot of the same business 3740 03:31:30,959 --> 03:31:33,720 Speaker 1: interests that are pushing this anti homeless agenda, pushing the 3741 03:31:33,800 --> 03:31:38,600 Speaker 1: mayor's proposal to put homeless people in encampments. And UM, 3742 03:31:39,760 --> 03:31:42,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just I feel like I can 3743 03:31:42,240 --> 03:31:46,200 Speaker 1: see it all coming together, and that I hate how 3744 03:31:46,280 --> 03:31:48,320 Speaker 1: many people are, as you said, kind of useful idiots 3745 03:31:48,320 --> 03:31:51,320 Speaker 1: about it, where they're like, you know, look it clearly 3746 03:31:51,440 --> 03:31:54,240 Speaker 1: these people who are talking about rehabilitation or who are 3747 03:31:54,280 --> 03:31:57,480 Speaker 1: trying to like actually, who are not suggesting a car 3748 03:31:57,600 --> 03:32:01,160 Speaker 1: serrale solution to the fact that it's unpleasant to see 3749 03:32:01,200 --> 03:32:05,760 Speaker 1: people suffering on the street, Um are wrong because look 3750 03:32:05,800 --> 03:32:07,680 Speaker 1: at what the news tells me about how much worse 3751 03:32:07,800 --> 03:32:11,840 Speaker 1: violence has gotten and stuff like I it's very frustrating. 3752 03:32:13,000 --> 03:32:16,520 Speaker 1: Don't vote for Renigans Hollace, but yeah, please please don't 3753 03:32:16,640 --> 03:32:19,040 Speaker 1: vote for a man who donated to a Republican pack 3754 03:32:19,760 --> 03:32:22,880 Speaker 1: six months after January six Lets please please let's not 3755 03:32:23,040 --> 03:32:30,600 Speaker 1: do that. But god, it's it's I think, like really 3756 03:32:30,879 --> 03:32:34,680 Speaker 1: sad that. I mean, like people I think really just 3757 03:32:34,840 --> 03:32:38,600 Speaker 1: don't want to think about how damaged all of society 3758 03:32:38,720 --> 03:32:41,480 Speaker 1: is right now. Yeah, my wait, like we lived through 3759 03:32:42,360 --> 03:32:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, I currently had one of the worst responses 3760 03:32:45,520 --> 03:32:53,320 Speaker 1: to COVID. Uh, millions of people are dead. Um, our 3761 03:32:53,600 --> 03:32:57,200 Speaker 1: mental health is fucking shot through un people who didn't 3762 03:32:57,320 --> 03:33:01,240 Speaker 1: experience sort of federal jack boots on the ground, Um, 3763 03:33:03,240 --> 03:33:07,280 Speaker 1: we're not well right like it. It's any number of 3764 03:33:08,200 --> 03:33:12,520 Speaker 1: housed perfectly like financially stable people turned to substance abuse 3765 03:33:12,600 --> 03:33:18,640 Speaker 1: during this period. Um, and uh are are still you know, recovering. Um. 3766 03:33:19,280 --> 03:33:22,880 Speaker 1: People who are unhoused also turned to substance abuse if 3767 03:33:22,920 --> 03:33:27,440 Speaker 1: they weren't um already there, and their mental health is 3768 03:33:27,440 --> 03:33:31,880 Speaker 1: also shot there and uh sort of the upshot of 3769 03:33:31,959 --> 03:33:35,200 Speaker 1: this is everyone is fucking sick and taking it out 3770 03:33:35,240 --> 03:33:42,400 Speaker 1: on each other, and it really sucks to see It 3771 03:33:42,520 --> 03:33:46,480 Speaker 1: really sucks to see people be their worst selves increasingly 3772 03:33:46,520 --> 03:33:50,000 Speaker 1: and increasingly. Yeah. And I first off, I want to 3773 03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:52,200 Speaker 1: try to provide people with some objective numbers. And this 3774 03:33:52,320 --> 03:33:54,600 Speaker 1: is just on the City of Portland's So Portland's number one, 3775 03:33:54,680 --> 03:33:57,440 Speaker 1: never defunded its police. There are police currently get the 3776 03:33:57,520 --> 03:34:00,480 Speaker 1: most money they've ever gotten. Um. But we do have 3777 03:34:00,720 --> 03:34:02,760 Speaker 1: one thing that is accurate to say is we have 3778 03:34:03,000 --> 03:34:05,360 Speaker 1: fewer police per capita than any major city in the 3779 03:34:05,480 --> 03:34:08,480 Speaker 1: United States, and we have the fewest number of police 3780 03:34:08,520 --> 03:34:11,840 Speaker 1: on the force in living memory. I'm fairly certain right 3781 03:34:11,879 --> 03:34:15,240 Speaker 1: now there's like seven hundred Portland police officers, which is 3782 03:34:15,280 --> 03:34:19,840 Speaker 1: significantly down from because it's not a pleasant job, because 3783 03:34:19,879 --> 03:34:22,000 Speaker 1: people hate the cops here in Portland, so they keep 3784 03:34:22,080 --> 03:34:25,920 Speaker 1: quitting and moving to other cities. UM. And it is 3785 03:34:26,040 --> 03:34:29,000 Speaker 1: true that when the pandemic hit, violent crime in Portland 3786 03:34:29,120 --> 03:34:31,840 Speaker 1: raised by about two hundred and seven percent from January 3787 03:34:32,240 --> 03:34:36,320 Speaker 1: nine through June, which is the largest increase compared to 3788 03:34:36,400 --> 03:34:38,960 Speaker 1: five comparable cities. This is from an article in the 3789 03:34:39,040 --> 03:34:44,840 Speaker 1: Oregon Capital Chronicle, Minneapolis, Atlanta, San Francisco, Denver, and Nashville. UM. However, 3790 03:34:45,640 --> 03:34:48,280 Speaker 1: it's also worth noting that over the course of the 3791 03:34:48,680 --> 03:34:52,200 Speaker 1: last year, we're at seven a fewer homicides than we 3792 03:34:52,280 --> 03:34:55,599 Speaker 1: were the year before. UM. Overall, the number of homicides 3793 03:34:55,840 --> 03:34:59,760 Speaker 1: in two has fallen two percent from one, even as 3794 03:35:00,160 --> 03:35:03,160 Speaker 1: we continue to have fewer and fewer police, almost as 3795 03:35:03,200 --> 03:35:06,560 Speaker 1: if the surgeon violent crime was not a result in policing, 3796 03:35:06,720 --> 03:35:08,880 Speaker 1: but as you said, the result of a lot of 3797 03:35:08,959 --> 03:35:12,680 Speaker 1: other factors around the pandemic and around the economic situation, 3798 03:35:13,240 --> 03:35:17,080 Speaker 1: and like the rate of violence has been continuing to decrease. 3799 03:35:17,280 --> 03:35:21,080 Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that while we're talking about homicides 3800 03:35:21,160 --> 03:35:24,320 Speaker 1: here in Portland did see a surgeon homicides during the pandemic, 3801 03:35:24,959 --> 03:35:27,000 Speaker 1: that's not the only kind of crime or the only 3802 03:35:27,120 --> 03:35:29,680 Speaker 1: kind of violent crime. UM. And I want to quote 3803 03:35:29,720 --> 03:35:33,680 Speaker 1: here from Travel Oregon. In February one, the Major Cities 3804 03:35:33,720 --> 03:35:36,320 Speaker 1: Chiefs Association issue to report noting that sixty three of 3805 03:35:36,360 --> 03:35:38,720 Speaker 1: sixty six major cities saw at least one violent crime 3806 03:35:38,800 --> 03:35:42,680 Speaker 1: category grow in. Among cities of comparable size, Portland's generally 3807 03:35:42,760 --> 03:35:46,560 Speaker 1: experiences violent crime at somewhat lower rates. Like the a 3808 03:35:46,720 --> 03:35:49,320 Speaker 1: lot of this is media driven, and it's specifically the 3809 03:35:49,400 --> 03:35:51,680 Speaker 1: thing that you highlighted in the post that that made 3810 03:35:51,720 --> 03:35:55,119 Speaker 1: me reach out to you was was talking about how 3811 03:35:55,720 --> 03:35:59,840 Speaker 1: particularly white suburbanite homeowners are driving this panic in our 3812 03:36:00,040 --> 03:36:04,279 Speaker 1: driving these kind of surge and very like fascist solutions 3813 03:36:04,480 --> 03:36:08,600 Speaker 1: to the fears that they have about homelessness and about crime. 3814 03:36:09,000 --> 03:36:10,600 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why this ship works is 3815 03:36:10,680 --> 03:36:12,760 Speaker 1: is people don't go into the city. They live in 3816 03:36:12,840 --> 03:36:16,000 Speaker 1: the suburbs. They see the scary news. And that's the 3817 03:36:16,080 --> 03:36:18,240 Speaker 1: thing I don't know how to actually combat because it 3818 03:36:18,520 --> 03:36:22,039 Speaker 1: is a nationwide problem. Shootings and deaths due to shootings. 3819 03:36:22,760 --> 03:36:25,240 Speaker 1: They have increased since the pandemic. But if you look 3820 03:36:25,280 --> 03:36:29,439 Speaker 1: at them on like a twenty year graph, fairly flat nationwide, 3821 03:36:29,959 --> 03:36:35,760 Speaker 1: um but has right, like the statistics of gun crimes 3822 03:36:35,800 --> 03:36:37,560 Speaker 1: like what in like the last couple of years. And 3823 03:36:37,640 --> 03:36:41,560 Speaker 1: then now they're saying that gun violence has increased, like 3824 03:36:41,640 --> 03:36:45,280 Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, yeah, anyway, what had What we know 3825 03:36:45,400 --> 03:36:48,879 Speaker 1: what has increased vastly more than gun crime is reporting 3826 03:36:48,920 --> 03:36:51,480 Speaker 1: on gun crime, which has surged it like and and 3827 03:36:51,640 --> 03:36:54,080 Speaker 1: that's because you know, if it bleeds, it leads in whatever. 3828 03:36:54,160 --> 03:36:56,520 Speaker 1: But it is this thing of like that's the stuff 3829 03:36:56,560 --> 03:36:58,680 Speaker 1: that gets people to pay attention, and it's the stuff 3830 03:36:58,720 --> 03:37:01,280 Speaker 1: that spreads on social media, just like pictures of like 3831 03:37:01,320 --> 03:37:03,560 Speaker 1: poop on the streets of San Francisco can spread on 3832 03:37:03,680 --> 03:37:08,040 Speaker 1: social media and it it all exists to keep these 3833 03:37:08,120 --> 03:37:11,240 Speaker 1: kind of suburban voters at a constant state of agitation, 3834 03:37:11,360 --> 03:37:13,840 Speaker 1: which makes them easy to manipulate. And like that's the 3835 03:37:13,879 --> 03:37:17,800 Speaker 1: thing that scares me the most. Yeah, I mean things 3836 03:37:17,840 --> 03:37:21,680 Speaker 1: are almost shittier with Portland because well, like, okay, the 3837 03:37:21,879 --> 03:37:24,080 Speaker 1: same Randisco poop situation. So I used to live in 3838 03:37:24,120 --> 03:37:29,000 Speaker 1: the Bay Area. That was a real situation. Francis is 3839 03:37:29,040 --> 03:37:32,200 Speaker 1: just human. There's just human ship everywhere. Um, it's you know, 3840 03:37:32,520 --> 03:37:34,840 Speaker 1: you you live with it. It's it just is what 3841 03:37:35,000 --> 03:37:37,080 Speaker 1: it is. And you know someone's from New York when 3842 03:37:37,080 --> 03:37:39,680 Speaker 1: they start complaining about it, right, like, it's uh and 3843 03:37:40,320 --> 03:37:44,039 Speaker 1: it I think New York which smells like p everywhere, 3844 03:37:44,080 --> 03:37:46,480 Speaker 1: but I mean it's it's most like hot garbage because 3845 03:37:46,480 --> 03:37:48,400 Speaker 1: they don't they don't take their garbage. They like just 3846 03:37:48,520 --> 03:37:51,400 Speaker 1: put their garbage out on the curb and when it's summertime, 3847 03:37:51,440 --> 03:37:57,680 Speaker 1: it just smells fucking terrible. Um. But uh so everyone's 3848 03:37:57,720 --> 03:38:01,640 Speaker 1: got their problems. But it's it's this like weird thing 3849 03:38:01,720 --> 03:38:04,400 Speaker 1: where just because of the way that we're drawn up geographically, 3850 03:38:04,480 --> 03:38:07,000 Speaker 1: we've got all of these people, like like you said, 3851 03:38:07,240 --> 03:38:10,560 Speaker 1: like out in the burbs who vote who have control 3852 03:38:10,680 --> 03:38:14,320 Speaker 1: over the way the wind blows, who just never come 3853 03:38:14,360 --> 03:38:18,119 Speaker 1: out here. Ever in this they never come out here 3854 03:38:18,800 --> 03:38:23,800 Speaker 1: and uh in San Francisco, Like yeah, they've got outlying 3855 03:38:23,879 --> 03:38:28,320 Speaker 1: areas as well, but it's it's not drawn up exactly 3856 03:38:28,400 --> 03:38:31,440 Speaker 1: the way that we are quite right, Like like the 3857 03:38:31,480 --> 03:38:33,720 Speaker 1: people who are going to be the most alarmist about 3858 03:38:33,760 --> 03:38:37,440 Speaker 1: San Francisco are like not going to be in the 3859 03:38:37,600 --> 03:38:40,760 Speaker 1: area where they're voting about the things that happened to 3860 03:38:41,120 --> 03:38:43,840 Speaker 1: San Francisco. The way that Chazi stuff went down, Like 3861 03:38:46,520 --> 03:38:49,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's complicated, right, Like I mean it was 3862 03:38:50,040 --> 03:38:53,720 Speaker 1: it was a witch hunt and it made me really 3863 03:38:56,920 --> 03:38:58,560 Speaker 1: in San Francis and made me really want to never 3864 03:38:58,640 --> 03:39:04,120 Speaker 1: move back. But it it was like we've we've just 3865 03:39:04,240 --> 03:39:07,120 Speaker 1: got a different sort of set up here where the 3866 03:39:07,240 --> 03:39:10,720 Speaker 1: people who are the most upset about all of the 3867 03:39:10,800 --> 03:39:14,600 Speaker 1: crime in Portland, like they don't come out to where 3868 03:39:14,640 --> 03:39:17,440 Speaker 1: they think the crime is happening at all, Like they 3869 03:39:17,600 --> 03:39:21,280 Speaker 1: like they just don't really interact with the city. They're 3870 03:39:21,320 --> 03:39:28,160 Speaker 1: off somewhere else. And it's it is truly strange, really annoying. 3871 03:39:28,720 --> 03:39:32,280 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and it is this is like I don't know, 3872 03:39:32,400 --> 03:39:34,920 Speaker 1: this is part of why this is part of why 3873 03:39:34,959 --> 03:39:40,039 Speaker 1: politically I tend to align myself with like libertarian municipalism. Um. 3874 03:39:40,400 --> 03:39:42,560 Speaker 1: I think one of the problems we have is that 3875 03:39:44,720 --> 03:39:47,000 Speaker 1: places that have very little to do with each other 3876 03:39:47,200 --> 03:39:50,520 Speaker 1: get to pass laws that impact how people live in 3877 03:39:50,640 --> 03:39:54,760 Speaker 1: those those places, Like which is a problem, um as 3878 03:39:54,800 --> 03:39:57,400 Speaker 1: we all just got overseeing with fucking Donald Trump, right, 3879 03:39:57,480 --> 03:39:59,440 Speaker 1: Like that's a that's a version of the problem in 3880 03:39:59,520 --> 03:40:01,560 Speaker 1: a version. Another version of the problem is that like 3881 03:40:01,680 --> 03:40:04,760 Speaker 1: people in Los Angeles can pass a gas tax that 3882 03:40:04,840 --> 03:40:07,520 Speaker 1: makes total sense for cities in California, but fox over 3883 03:40:07,800 --> 03:40:10,680 Speaker 1: people who live in the middle of nowhere. Um. And 3884 03:40:10,760 --> 03:40:14,680 Speaker 1: all of these things are like, I don't know, it's 3885 03:40:14,760 --> 03:40:20,280 Speaker 1: the you get the it's too simultaneous issues. Like one 3886 03:40:20,360 --> 03:40:23,760 Speaker 1: of them is you've got these liberals in Portland, who 3887 03:40:23,959 --> 03:40:29,720 Speaker 1: the rest of the state resents for dominating politics in 3888 03:40:29,760 --> 03:40:31,959 Speaker 1: the entire state, even in areas that are very little 3889 03:40:31,959 --> 03:40:34,920 Speaker 1: to do with like western Oregon. And then you have 3890 03:40:35,200 --> 03:40:38,600 Speaker 1: these these outlying like you have these folks who don't 3891 03:40:38,640 --> 03:40:41,160 Speaker 1: live in Portland, who you know, are pushing for like 3892 03:40:41,240 --> 03:40:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, who are responsible with the fact that we 3893 03:40:43,120 --> 03:40:46,680 Speaker 1: might get a Republican governor in the state, right, who 3894 03:40:46,720 --> 03:40:49,760 Speaker 1: are reacting to like what they hear about Portland, even 3895 03:40:49,800 --> 03:40:52,520 Speaker 1: though it's not accurate, and I don't know. I I 3896 03:40:53,200 --> 03:40:55,080 Speaker 1: this is we're getting past like what people can do 3897 03:40:55,200 --> 03:40:58,440 Speaker 1: in terms of like voting on local elections. But I 3898 03:40:58,520 --> 03:41:01,720 Speaker 1: wish we had a system and which like folks weren't 3899 03:41:01,760 --> 03:41:04,200 Speaker 1: constantly pitted against each other in this way, because I 3900 03:41:04,240 --> 03:41:07,520 Speaker 1: don't think it's very productive. Well, we're chopped up in 3901 03:41:08,040 --> 03:41:11,920 Speaker 1: a really by the way, I vote to charter reform, etcetera. 3902 03:41:11,959 --> 03:41:15,400 Speaker 1: If you live in Portland. Uh, like we've we've got 3903 03:41:15,560 --> 03:41:19,400 Speaker 1: some some other other things going on with our our 3904 03:41:19,440 --> 03:41:26,000 Speaker 1: city government that makes things additionally weird and um, suboptimal. 3905 03:41:27,080 --> 03:41:29,480 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of things that I'm kind of dreading 3906 03:41:29,640 --> 03:41:32,960 Speaker 1: in the near future or from the midterm elections, including 3907 03:41:33,440 --> 03:41:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, Renee Gonzalez. Um, you know, I I have 3908 03:41:37,000 --> 03:41:39,920 Speaker 1: strong feelings on the proposed gun control measure, but um, 3909 03:41:40,080 --> 03:41:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm broadly optimistic about charter reform. That actually seems like 3910 03:41:44,080 --> 03:41:47,480 Speaker 1: something good that we're likely to do. Yeah, um, yeah, 3911 03:41:47,600 --> 03:41:49,640 Speaker 1: let's talk about that a little bit, because Portland would 3912 03:41:49,640 --> 03:41:53,120 Speaker 1: be the first city in the United States to reform 3913 03:41:53,400 --> 03:41:56,000 Speaker 1: its city council along these lines. If I'm not mistaken, 3914 03:41:56,920 --> 03:42:00,680 Speaker 1: along which lines like the way they try to reform 3915 03:42:00,879 --> 03:42:04,400 Speaker 1: is like set up um. So basically Portland's currently has 3916 03:42:04,560 --> 03:42:07,200 Speaker 1: a commission form of government in which we have a 3917 03:42:07,360 --> 03:42:12,520 Speaker 1: very powerful mayor and for city council people who are 3918 03:42:12,800 --> 03:42:17,280 Speaker 1: handed portfolios by the mayor and they basically run the 3919 03:42:17,360 --> 03:42:22,800 Speaker 1: city government. Um. Which is it's a pretty dysfunctional system. UM. 3920 03:42:23,000 --> 03:42:26,520 Speaker 1: It leads to a a small number of people running 3921 03:42:26,640 --> 03:42:29,720 Speaker 1: very large bureaucracies that they usually don't know how to handle, 3922 03:42:30,160 --> 03:42:32,320 Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why the city is 3923 03:42:32,400 --> 03:42:34,879 Speaker 1: so dysfunctional, in addition to the fact that our Mayor 3924 03:42:35,120 --> 03:42:40,520 Speaker 1: Ted Wheeler is uh politely speaking dogshit. Under the new 3925 03:42:40,640 --> 03:42:43,440 Speaker 1: form of government that's that's being voted on right now, 3926 03:42:43,560 --> 03:42:48,160 Speaker 1: the charter, the commission structure will be jettisoned. City council 3927 03:42:48,240 --> 03:42:52,160 Speaker 1: members will not directly manage bureaus. Instead, they'll pass laws 3928 03:42:52,280 --> 03:42:54,920 Speaker 1: and meet with constituents. The mayor will no longer be 3929 03:42:55,040 --> 03:42:58,440 Speaker 1: part of the city council. Instead, he'll lead the executive branch. 3930 03:42:59,200 --> 03:43:01,560 Speaker 1: I'm not wild about the amount of power that the 3931 03:43:01,640 --> 03:43:05,920 Speaker 1: mayor will still have, UM, but I think broadly speaking, uh, 3932 03:43:06,200 --> 03:43:08,760 Speaker 1: it's it's a much better system and there will be 3933 03:43:08,959 --> 03:43:12,920 Speaker 1: like a larger group of people involved in actually like 3934 03:43:13,160 --> 03:43:18,200 Speaker 1: managing the city's affairs. UM. I don't know. What we 3935 03:43:18,320 --> 03:43:24,440 Speaker 1: have currently certainly is not particularly effective. Um. And I 3936 03:43:24,480 --> 03:43:30,119 Speaker 1: would like to see a more democratic system put into place. Yeah, 3937 03:43:30,600 --> 03:43:35,560 Speaker 1: and obscenely outdated. Right, it's like, Yeah, I don't know 3938 03:43:35,959 --> 03:43:40,400 Speaker 1: who else does things like Portland's currently does, but the 3939 03:43:40,520 --> 03:43:45,080 Speaker 1: charter reform is greatly needed. Yeah, and it's going to 3940 03:43:45,160 --> 03:43:47,920 Speaker 1: bring in rank choice voting as well, when people vote 3941 03:43:48,040 --> 03:43:51,400 Speaker 1: on yeah, on their on their like city like, which 3942 03:43:51,520 --> 03:43:55,120 Speaker 1: is uh. Like. One of the issues that we've had 3943 03:43:55,200 --> 03:43:57,080 Speaker 1: here is that like that we're having right now with 3944 03:43:57,200 --> 03:44:01,280 Speaker 1: like the gubernatorial race is that, um, you've got three 3945 03:44:01,360 --> 03:44:04,640 Speaker 1: candidates running, one of whom is kind of positioning themselves 3946 03:44:04,640 --> 03:44:07,040 Speaker 1: as an independent Betsey Johnson, who does not really have 3947 03:44:07,640 --> 03:44:10,840 Speaker 1: a chance to win um, and seems to be being 3948 03:44:10,879 --> 03:44:13,440 Speaker 1: funded by people like the Nike guy in order to 3949 03:44:13,520 --> 03:44:16,440 Speaker 1: take voids away from Tina co Tech, who's the Democratic candidate, 3950 03:44:17,480 --> 03:44:21,640 Speaker 1: so that Christine Drayson, who's the Republican candidate, will be 3951 03:44:21,720 --> 03:44:23,880 Speaker 1: more likely to win. I don't know, Like, UM, I 3952 03:44:24,200 --> 03:44:26,600 Speaker 1: still don't know how much I believe Drayson actually has 3953 03:44:26,640 --> 03:44:28,959 Speaker 1: a shot, but the polls show them neck and neck 3954 03:44:29,440 --> 03:44:34,600 Speaker 1: soos are pretty terrifying. Um, yeah, we're we're kind of 3955 03:44:34,680 --> 03:44:38,680 Speaker 1: like covering on the cusp of of the governor seat 3956 03:44:38,720 --> 03:44:48,480 Speaker 1: going red to Yeah, it's yeah, I don't know. Um yeah, 3957 03:44:48,560 --> 03:44:51,760 Speaker 1: that's the election that scares me, Like I really do. 3958 03:44:51,959 --> 03:44:54,400 Speaker 1: I really don't want to see Renee Gonzala's win. But 3959 03:44:55,720 --> 03:45:00,560 Speaker 1: the if charter reform passes, like the the arm that 3960 03:45:00,720 --> 03:45:04,520 Speaker 1: he can inflict on the city becomes limited, just because 3961 03:45:05,440 --> 03:45:10,160 Speaker 1: right now, city council seats just have outsized power in 3962 03:45:10,240 --> 03:45:16,320 Speaker 1: a very dysfunctional way. And uh, it's and that that 3963 03:45:16,480 --> 03:45:18,680 Speaker 1: changes with stry to reform, like we just get a 3964 03:45:18,720 --> 03:45:22,480 Speaker 1: little bit more of a normal city. Um and uh. 3965 03:45:23,840 --> 03:45:27,760 Speaker 1: But the state, the state election though, that is that's 3966 03:45:27,800 --> 03:45:34,880 Speaker 1: pretty scary stuff. Yeah, the state, especially since if the 3967 03:45:34,959 --> 03:45:38,240 Speaker 1: Democrats stay in power at the state level, then there's 3968 03:45:38,240 --> 03:45:41,120 Speaker 1: a good chance that I mean as far as like 3969 03:45:41,240 --> 03:45:43,760 Speaker 1: what people are talking about, then we're going to actually 3970 03:45:43,920 --> 03:45:47,640 Speaker 1: see like Portland become or Oregon become a sanctuary for 3971 03:45:48,920 --> 03:45:51,200 Speaker 1: reproductive health. Right Like that's one of the things that's 3972 03:45:51,240 --> 03:45:57,440 Speaker 1: that's on the ballot. Um. So if you uh, like 3973 03:45:57,600 --> 03:46:01,200 Speaker 1: if you care about that, that's kind of the whole game, right, 3974 03:46:01,320 --> 03:46:04,000 Speaker 1: Like regardless of the fact that co Tech has a 3975 03:46:04,120 --> 03:46:07,840 Speaker 1: history with our current governor that's not entirely positive. Our 3976 03:46:07,840 --> 03:46:10,560 Speaker 1: current Democratic governor has been a ship governor and handled 3977 03:46:10,560 --> 03:46:13,000 Speaker 1: the pandemic terribly. Like, at the end of the day, 3978 03:46:13,120 --> 03:46:17,160 Speaker 1: it's it kind of has to be all about um uh, 3979 03:46:17,720 --> 03:46:22,920 Speaker 1: all about reproductive health, right because like the Republicans would 3980 03:46:22,959 --> 03:46:26,720 Speaker 1: not have handled the pandemic any better. Um, but they 3981 03:46:26,760 --> 03:46:31,240 Speaker 1: will also support a crackdown against people having access to abortion. 3982 03:46:31,760 --> 03:46:34,440 Speaker 1: We also have the craziest Republicans out here like it, 3983 03:46:34,600 --> 03:46:38,879 Speaker 1: And I mean part of that is the areas are 3984 03:46:38,879 --> 03:46:41,320 Speaker 1: representing or whatever, but part of it is also just 3985 03:46:41,560 --> 03:46:44,120 Speaker 1: we've been under Democratic control for so long that like 3986 03:46:44,200 --> 03:46:47,760 Speaker 1: the minority party gets weirder and weirder and weirder, like 3987 03:46:47,920 --> 03:46:50,240 Speaker 1: we've got we've got the guys who, like what, ran 3988 03:46:50,280 --> 03:46:52,600 Speaker 1: away from the legislative session rather than vote on a 3989 03:46:52,680 --> 03:46:56,040 Speaker 1: climate change bill. Al Right, Like it's it's not it's 3990 03:46:56,080 --> 03:46:59,360 Speaker 1: not good. It's really bad. Like handing ending them the 3991 03:46:59,440 --> 03:47:03,640 Speaker 1: keys of the king him is a terrible move. Yeah, 3992 03:47:04,800 --> 03:47:07,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to say, Uh you get 3993 03:47:07,080 --> 03:47:09,000 Speaker 1: anything else to say? As we as we head into 3994 03:47:09,080 --> 03:47:12,760 Speaker 1: the midterm elections here in Oregon, I felt like, I 3995 03:47:12,760 --> 03:47:16,760 Speaker 1: don't know, this is broadly speaking, I really want to 3996 03:47:16,800 --> 03:47:21,000 Speaker 1: hear about your your your feelings on that gun control measure. Yeah, 3997 03:47:22,520 --> 03:47:24,920 Speaker 1: so we've got Measure one fourteen coming up, which is 3998 03:47:25,120 --> 03:47:29,320 Speaker 1: um gun control. So for people who don't know, uh, 3999 03:47:29,360 --> 03:47:31,240 Speaker 1: and this may surprise folks even how blue it is, 4000 03:47:31,320 --> 03:47:34,640 Speaker 1: Oregon basically does not have any kind of like gun 4001 03:47:34,760 --> 03:47:36,880 Speaker 1: control laws. Um. This is a This is a state 4002 03:47:36,959 --> 03:47:39,440 Speaker 1: in which any kind of gun that's legal to own 4003 03:47:39,480 --> 03:47:41,680 Speaker 1: in the United States and any kind of magazine you 4004 03:47:41,800 --> 03:47:44,960 Speaker 1: can own in the state of Oregon. Um, we are 4005 03:47:45,000 --> 03:47:47,680 Speaker 1: a shall issue state, which means if you are a 4006 03:47:47,800 --> 03:47:51,000 Speaker 1: law abiding citizen and you apply for concealed cary permit, 4007 03:47:51,040 --> 03:47:54,000 Speaker 1: they have to give it to you. Um. Gun owners 4008 03:47:54,080 --> 03:47:57,400 Speaker 1: have quite a few protections at present. Uh. The first 4009 03:47:57,920 --> 03:48:01,400 Speaker 1: major there was a gun control law passed in most 4010 03:48:01,520 --> 03:48:03,920 Speaker 1: reasonable gun owners had no issue with it because all 4011 03:48:03,959 --> 03:48:06,320 Speaker 1: it did was say you have to get a background 4012 03:48:06,360 --> 03:48:08,480 Speaker 1: check to you. So there's this thing called face to 4013 03:48:08,520 --> 03:48:11,080 Speaker 1: face sales, whereby in a lot of states like Texas, 4014 03:48:11,160 --> 03:48:13,400 Speaker 1: you can just hand somebody a gun for cash as 4015 03:48:13,440 --> 03:48:16,040 Speaker 1: long as you're not a professional gun dealer. That's that's legal, 4016 03:48:16,480 --> 03:48:19,440 Speaker 1: and that's that's bad generally, it's how a lot of 4017 03:48:19,480 --> 03:48:22,280 Speaker 1: guns get across the border that was removed as a 4018 03:48:22,360 --> 03:48:24,840 Speaker 1: legal possibility in Oregon back in But other than that, 4019 03:48:24,959 --> 03:48:27,040 Speaker 1: we haven't had a whole lot of gun control UM 4020 03:48:27,160 --> 03:48:31,160 Speaker 1: in the wake of the Vivaldi shooting, a an organization 4021 03:48:31,400 --> 03:48:33,480 Speaker 1: I think Lift Every Voice is what they're called, led 4022 03:48:33,520 --> 03:48:37,240 Speaker 1: by some church leaders, pushed for what a ballot measure. 4023 03:48:37,360 --> 03:48:39,840 Speaker 1: So this is not something where and I do think 4024 03:48:39,879 --> 03:48:43,080 Speaker 1: this is interesting, there's not a situation where democratic politicians 4025 03:48:43,120 --> 03:48:47,160 Speaker 1: in the state of Oregon are trying to pass gun control. 4026 03:48:47,240 --> 03:48:50,160 Speaker 1: This is a situation in which a ballot measure was 4027 03:48:50,240 --> 03:48:53,960 Speaker 1: proposed and enough people voted that the entire state is 4028 03:48:54,080 --> 03:48:58,000 Speaker 1: voting on whether or not to have gun control UM, which, 4029 03:48:58,080 --> 03:49:01,320 Speaker 1: regardless of my opinions on the measure itself, I think 4030 03:49:01,400 --> 03:49:03,240 Speaker 1: is a better way for stuff like this to work 4031 03:49:03,280 --> 03:49:05,640 Speaker 1: than a bunch of legislators just like making a law. 4032 03:49:05,720 --> 03:49:09,040 Speaker 1: But anyway, the measure itself is, in my opinion, deeply 4033 03:49:09,080 --> 03:49:10,560 Speaker 1: flawed in the way that it's written. It does a 4034 03:49:10,600 --> 03:49:13,480 Speaker 1: couple of things. For one thing, it requires that every 4035 03:49:14,320 --> 03:49:16,480 Speaker 1: person who buy a gun pass a background check, which 4036 03:49:16,520 --> 03:49:18,880 Speaker 1: is already the law that's in the bill, and it 4037 03:49:18,920 --> 03:49:21,800 Speaker 1: shouldn't be because it's already the law. I think one 4038 03:49:21,880 --> 03:49:23,800 Speaker 1: of the things that reasons I think that's dishonest is 4039 03:49:23,840 --> 03:49:25,840 Speaker 1: because it always gets summarized and like, this is what 4040 03:49:25,960 --> 03:49:28,080 Speaker 1: the bill will do. It will require that everybody pass 4041 03:49:28,120 --> 03:49:30,360 Speaker 1: a backgroundch of well, they're all they're already required. It 4042 03:49:30,440 --> 03:49:34,840 Speaker 1: does not actually do anything there. Um. It adds in 4043 03:49:35,200 --> 03:49:38,400 Speaker 1: a magazine capacity restrictions, and you won't be able to 4044 03:49:38,520 --> 03:49:41,280 Speaker 1: buy or take out in public magazines that have a 4045 03:49:41,400 --> 03:49:43,680 Speaker 1: higher capacity than ten rounds. We can talk about that 4046 03:49:43,680 --> 03:49:45,840 Speaker 1: in a second. And then the primary thing it does 4047 03:49:45,960 --> 03:49:49,960 Speaker 1: is it requires people pass a series of tests in 4048 03:49:50,160 --> 03:49:52,800 Speaker 1: order to purchase firearms, and the people who will be 4049 03:49:52,920 --> 03:49:57,760 Speaker 1: a ministering those tests and running the whole program are 4050 03:49:57,840 --> 03:50:01,360 Speaker 1: the police. So the police essentially get control over who 4051 03:50:01,480 --> 03:50:06,560 Speaker 1: gets to own firearms. UM. I do consider that that 4052 03:50:06,760 --> 03:50:09,600 Speaker 1: is particularly the thing that I find problematic. Um. For 4053 03:50:09,720 --> 03:50:13,560 Speaker 1: one thing, regardless of your opinions on gun control, the 4054 03:50:13,800 --> 03:50:16,600 Speaker 1: right to bear arms is similar to the right to 4055 03:50:16,800 --> 03:50:18,960 Speaker 1: freedom of speech and guaranteed in the same way, and 4056 03:50:19,040 --> 03:50:20,880 Speaker 1: so the fact that the police are being made the 4057 03:50:21,000 --> 03:50:23,840 Speaker 1: arbiters of who gets to exercise that right is deeply problematic. 4058 03:50:23,960 --> 03:50:27,880 Speaker 1: To me, UM, I think, given what we know about 4059 03:50:27,960 --> 03:50:30,880 Speaker 1: how often police in Oregon work with far right groups, 4060 03:50:31,040 --> 03:50:34,480 Speaker 1: work with organizations like the Proud Boys, UM, it is 4061 03:50:34,640 --> 03:50:39,520 Speaker 1: very likely that we will see uneven enforcement and uneven um. 4062 03:50:40,840 --> 03:50:45,480 Speaker 1: Uh like the police granting the ability to bear arms 4063 03:50:45,640 --> 03:50:49,320 Speaker 1: very unevenly, which concerns me greatly. We had a mass 4064 03:50:49,360 --> 03:50:52,160 Speaker 1: shooting earlier this year at a protest in which a 4065 03:50:52,320 --> 03:50:55,440 Speaker 1: right winger killed a woman, UH, sixty one year old 4066 03:50:55,440 --> 03:50:59,200 Speaker 1: woman and injured five other people. That person was stopped 4067 03:50:59,280 --> 03:51:01,360 Speaker 1: by a left wing demonstrator with an a R fifteen 4068 03:51:01,400 --> 03:51:04,240 Speaker 1: style rifle. UM. What was actually technically a handgun, but 4069 03:51:04,320 --> 03:51:08,160 Speaker 1: that's anyway. Whatever, it was an a R fifteen style weapon. UM. 4070 03:51:08,680 --> 03:51:11,840 Speaker 1: I'm concerned that under this new law, the right winger 4071 03:51:11,960 --> 03:51:14,320 Speaker 1: would have still had the ability to acquire firearms, but 4072 03:51:14,360 --> 03:51:18,000 Speaker 1: the person who stopped and would not. UM. So that's 4073 03:51:18,040 --> 03:51:19,880 Speaker 1: why I have an issue with it. I also think, 4074 03:51:20,000 --> 03:51:23,600 Speaker 1: if you're going to I'm not. I don't personally advocate 4075 03:51:23,960 --> 03:51:28,280 Speaker 1: magazine capacity restrictions, but also I don't speak out against them. 4076 03:51:28,760 --> 03:51:33,280 Speaker 1: Washington recently passed a law restricting magazine capacity. I didn't 4077 03:51:33,280 --> 03:51:36,320 Speaker 1: say anything about that. I think maybe I I think 4078 03:51:36,360 --> 03:51:39,840 Speaker 1: if it like, if it works, I will be happy. Um. 4079 03:51:40,000 --> 03:51:42,440 Speaker 1: I think the way the Washington law was written was 4080 03:51:42,480 --> 03:51:45,040 Speaker 1: a lot more sensible than the Oregon law because it 4081 03:51:45,200 --> 03:51:47,400 Speaker 1: was written in such a way that it stops the 4082 03:51:47,560 --> 03:51:51,880 Speaker 1: additional sale of expand of standard capacity magazines of thirty 4083 03:51:51,960 --> 03:51:56,360 Speaker 1: round magazines and higher without giving the police an opportunity 4084 03:51:56,480 --> 03:51:59,640 Speaker 1: to harass and arrest people over what they own, um, 4085 03:52:00,000 --> 03:52:02,160 Speaker 1: which I think is important. The way the law is written, 4086 03:52:02,320 --> 03:52:04,960 Speaker 1: if you had, like whatever you had prior to the 4087 03:52:05,040 --> 03:52:08,520 Speaker 1: band taking effect, you can keep and continue to use 4088 03:52:08,720 --> 03:52:11,720 Speaker 1: as normal, um, just no more it can be sold. 4089 03:52:11,760 --> 03:52:13,360 Speaker 1: And so the thing that the thing you're trying to 4090 03:52:13,440 --> 03:52:15,760 Speaker 1: stop with a magazine capacity band at this point is 4091 03:52:15,800 --> 03:52:18,320 Speaker 1: someone doing what the Valdi shooter did right, where a 4092 03:52:18,400 --> 03:52:20,080 Speaker 1: kid goes out and buys a weapon and a bunch 4093 03:52:20,120 --> 03:52:23,240 Speaker 1: of thirty round magazines and then goes on a mass shooting. Right, 4094 03:52:23,320 --> 03:52:24,920 Speaker 1: you want them to not be able to go and 4095 03:52:25,000 --> 03:52:29,280 Speaker 1: immediately acquire those magazines. Um it is I think by 4096 03:52:29,720 --> 03:52:31,920 Speaker 1: making it illegal to take them out in the world 4097 03:52:31,960 --> 03:52:34,520 Speaker 1: if you already own them, what you're doing is giving 4098 03:52:34,640 --> 03:52:38,680 Speaker 1: police pretext to stop and search people, um, to like 4099 03:52:38,840 --> 03:52:41,760 Speaker 1: search people going out and shooting in the woods like 4100 03:52:41,880 --> 03:52:45,200 Speaker 1: folks do in Oregon, um, without having an impact on 4101 03:52:45,800 --> 03:52:48,840 Speaker 1: mass shooters, because they're not going to care about violating 4102 03:52:48,920 --> 03:52:51,040 Speaker 1: that particular law. If you want to stop more of 4103 03:52:51,120 --> 03:52:53,640 Speaker 1: those things from being sold, I think a law written 4104 03:52:53,680 --> 03:52:57,200 Speaker 1: the way the Washington law is written does the maximum 4105 03:52:57,280 --> 03:52:59,600 Speaker 1: in order to restrict people from purchasing the thing you 4106 03:52:59,640 --> 03:53:04,160 Speaker 1: don't want them to purchase without giving police the ability 4107 03:53:04,240 --> 03:53:08,200 Speaker 1: to like harass and arrest people. Um. Anyway, that's that's 4108 03:53:08,240 --> 03:53:13,480 Speaker 1: my thinking on one fourteen. Yeah, yeah, I think that's 4109 03:53:13,600 --> 03:53:17,600 Speaker 1: that's like an important as an important series of distinctions 4110 03:53:17,640 --> 03:53:21,920 Speaker 1: to get out there. Yeah, um, anyway, I I voted 4111 03:53:21,960 --> 03:53:25,800 Speaker 1: against it. I try, really, I actually do try, despite 4112 03:53:25,840 --> 03:53:28,880 Speaker 1: my opinions not to talk about gun control too much 4113 03:53:28,920 --> 03:53:31,360 Speaker 1: on this show. But like that's my my thinking on 4114 03:53:31,400 --> 03:53:33,800 Speaker 1: the matter. Folks can do whatever they want. Will know 4115 03:53:33,880 --> 03:53:38,400 Speaker 1: when on January or November eight how they voted. Yeah, 4116 03:53:38,560 --> 03:53:43,240 Speaker 1: I mean, like it's hardly the most disturbing things on 4117 03:53:43,320 --> 03:53:46,480 Speaker 1: the Balett right now. Yeah, no, no, no, And I 4118 03:53:46,640 --> 03:53:51,560 Speaker 1: am like, like I there's there's so much going on 4119 03:53:51,800 --> 03:53:54,440 Speaker 1: right now, and it's one of those things I guess 4120 03:53:54,480 --> 03:53:57,600 Speaker 1: we'll all learn in the near future, like we're gonna 4121 03:53:57,680 --> 03:54:01,480 Speaker 1: learn a lot from this election in Oregon, Like, if 4122 03:54:01,520 --> 03:54:04,760 Speaker 1: hardesty stays on, if we get charter reform, and if 4123 03:54:04,800 --> 03:54:08,360 Speaker 1: co Tech wins, then kind of regardless of what happens 4124 03:54:08,400 --> 03:54:11,000 Speaker 1: with one fourteen, I will be broadly optimistic heading into 4125 03:54:12,280 --> 03:54:16,000 Speaker 1: because it will show that the campaign of fear didn't 4126 03:54:16,040 --> 03:54:22,360 Speaker 1: work entirely. Yeah. Um, and if Gonzales and and Drayson 4127 03:54:22,400 --> 03:54:25,360 Speaker 1: win and shatter reform gets defeated, I will be really 4128 03:54:25,480 --> 03:54:30,560 Speaker 1: pessimistic heading in. Yeah. Yeah, if if drays and wins, 4129 03:54:30,600 --> 03:54:37,960 Speaker 1: like that's yeah, it's ah yeah, it's it's bad. It's 4130 03:54:38,000 --> 03:54:44,080 Speaker 1: really bad. It's bad news for a lot of fucking reasons. 4131 03:54:44,320 --> 03:54:49,880 Speaker 1: Um yeah, I mean row, that's huge. Um yeah. But yeah, 4132 03:54:49,960 --> 03:54:54,360 Speaker 1: like it's the sky's the limit for a a state 4133 03:54:54,440 --> 03:54:58,040 Speaker 1: that has been under democratic control for this long, right, 4134 03:54:58,120 --> 03:55:02,080 Speaker 1: Like it's it's they've just gotten so complacent, is all 4135 03:55:02,160 --> 03:55:05,000 Speaker 1: I can think. Um oh, I mean the spoiler candidate 4136 03:55:05,080 --> 03:55:10,480 Speaker 1: obviously that that did change a lot. Um, but it's 4137 03:55:11,600 --> 03:55:19,040 Speaker 1: the complacency was is alarming. Yeah. Um, well, is there 4138 03:55:19,040 --> 03:55:24,400 Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to say about what we're heading into? Uh? Well, 4139 03:55:24,880 --> 03:55:29,720 Speaker 1: I mean, don't let your fear control you. Um, don't 4140 03:55:29,760 --> 03:55:34,640 Speaker 1: be a useful idiot for Nazis, and uh, don't put 4141 03:55:34,680 --> 03:55:40,720 Speaker 1: people into camps. I guess yeah, that's that's my thinking. 4142 03:55:40,840 --> 03:55:44,160 Speaker 1: Don't Like, if somebody is trying to make you scared 4143 03:55:45,200 --> 03:55:47,720 Speaker 1: about a group of people who are the most powerless 4144 03:55:47,800 --> 03:55:51,560 Speaker 1: people in your community, you might want to assume that 4145 03:55:51,720 --> 03:55:54,880 Speaker 1: the person doing that is trying to take advantage of you. Um, 4146 03:55:55,440 --> 03:55:58,240 Speaker 1: that's that's that's kind of where I land on this 4147 03:55:58,360 --> 03:56:01,840 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Um, yeah, don't put people into camps. 4148 03:56:02,480 --> 03:56:05,880 Speaker 1: We really shouldn't have to say that anymore, but yeah, 4149 03:56:06,120 --> 03:56:08,280 Speaker 1: we should have to tell people to not be Patrick 4150 03:56:08,360 --> 03:56:11,360 Speaker 1: Bateman from fucking American right, Like it's like we should 4151 03:56:11,400 --> 03:56:15,840 Speaker 1: people should like but no, it's yeah, we've we should 4152 03:56:15,880 --> 03:56:19,880 Speaker 1: not be regressing this hard in terms of our moral compasses. 4153 03:56:20,000 --> 03:56:22,920 Speaker 1: But that's where we are. That's where we are. Well 4154 03:56:23,560 --> 03:56:26,720 Speaker 1: do you want to plug your plug? Double Sarah? Yeah? So, uh, 4155 03:56:27,720 --> 03:56:31,600 Speaker 1: Rerobert mentioned that I just put out a big feature 4156 03:56:31,680 --> 03:56:35,520 Speaker 1: about the Portland van abductions published on the Verge. Um. 4157 03:56:36,200 --> 03:56:39,640 Speaker 1: It's part of a longer series, uh that we did 4158 03:56:39,720 --> 03:56:42,560 Speaker 1: this year about the Department of Homeland Security, which is 4159 03:56:42,960 --> 03:56:46,000 Speaker 1: twenty years old this year. Um, So we did a 4160 03:56:46,080 --> 03:56:50,800 Speaker 1: bunch of features, some about Puerto Rico and FEMA. Uh, 4161 03:56:51,040 --> 03:56:53,600 Speaker 1: some about the t s A. Of course I did 4162 03:56:53,680 --> 03:56:56,240 Speaker 1: a short little thing about how Chad Wolfe was illegally 4163 03:56:56,280 --> 03:56:59,840 Speaker 1: ahead of the DHS for a hot minute. Um, and 4164 03:57:00,280 --> 03:57:03,160 Speaker 1: so there's some fun stuff in there. Um. We've still 4165 03:57:03,240 --> 03:57:05,040 Speaker 1: got another feature that will go up by the end 4166 03:57:05,080 --> 03:57:08,880 Speaker 1: of this year. I think your your listeners would enjoy 4167 03:57:09,080 --> 03:57:12,840 Speaker 1: going through some of those excellent. All right, well, that 4168 03:57:13,000 --> 03:57:15,800 Speaker 1: has been the episode. This has been It Could Happen Here? 4169 03:57:16,360 --> 03:57:25,000 Speaker 1: Um bye, Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes 4170 03:57:25,200 --> 03:57:27,640 Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 4171 03:57:28,240 --> 03:57:30,600 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 4172 03:57:30,840 --> 03:57:33,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4173 03:57:33,520 --> 03:57:35,640 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 4174 03:57:35,720 --> 03:57:38,200 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 4175 03:57:38,280 --> 03:57:40,880 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 4176 03:57:40,880 --> 03:57:43,840 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 4177 03:57:43,960 --> 03:57:45,800 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.