1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi, everybody, welcome back 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: to Katie's Crib. I Am Katie Lowe's okay, so expecting 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: Mama's know that the moment you find out you're pregnant, 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: the question that shortly follows is what are you having? 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: And everyone in their cousin is happy to put on 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: their detective hats share their predictions. Oh it's a boy 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: because you're craving sweet over salty. Oh it's gotta be 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: a girl because you're feeling like crap. Then there's also 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: the gender revealed parties, which have really taken off over 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: the years. People are finding creative and at times like 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: very dangerous ways to reveal the sex of their baby 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: to be. And as a mom who was ecstatic sobbed 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: when I found out I was having a girl, I 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: get it, but I really I got me thinking how 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: this pink blue divide affects our kids and what our 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: ideas about what's normal for boys and girls reveals about 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: our society. So here to speak to us today about 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: gender norms and more is Lisa Sellen Davis. Lisa is 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: an essayist, she's a novelist, she's a journalist, and she 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: is the author of the book we are going to 22 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: be unpacking today. The book is called Tomboy, The Surprising 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: History and Future of Girls Who Dare to Be Different. Lisa, 24 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on Katie's Crib. 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me on. I'm not sure exactly 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: when this episode airs, but I am like three weeks 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: from having a girl, unless she tells me otherwise. But 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: there's inherently different conversations going on than when I had 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: my son, and I am obsessed with Lisa's book. It 30 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: goes along with the two seventeen op ed in New 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: York Times that went totally viral. So tell me what 32 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: inspired you to write tom Boy? First of all, I mean, 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: the first thing that led me to write it was 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: having an here who veered away from traditional gender norms. 35 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: So in preschool, when kids were really starting to conform 36 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: and boys and girls were starting to separate and play differently, 37 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: girls were starting to play more with girls and boys 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: with boys. My kid was not doing that. My kids 39 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: stayed right in the middle, played with everybody, played with everything. 40 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: You know, it was happy to play princess, but wanted 41 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: to be the dog. By the way, since she's going 42 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: to middle school in the living room, I just heard 43 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: her read a story for her humanities class and it 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: took place from the point of view of a dog, 45 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, she've got her wish. She's the 46 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,839 Speaker 1: She's the dog. So, as I do with all complicated 47 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: things in my life, I wrote about that initially, and 48 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: about the complicated feelings around, like being a feminist and 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: wanting to have a kid who rejected all that feminine stuff, 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: but then also being confused by it right, And what 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: happened was over the years, as she continued being different 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: from the other girls, um very very kind people who 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: knew her well were assuming that she was trans or 54 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: wanted a different pronoun her name, or to change in 55 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: the boys locker room, and it was all out of 56 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: loving kindness, but it was also so based not on 57 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: what she said, but on gender stereotypes. So it was 58 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: very confusing for me, as someone who was raised hardcore feminist, 59 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: to see the way that all this stuff that we 60 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: worked so hard to say didn't just belong to boys 61 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: was making people think that she actually was a boy. 62 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: So I wrote about that in there was a big response. 63 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: I would say most of it positive, but the negative 64 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: was so negative. And I think the combination of all 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: those things, along with thinking why were there so many 66 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: kind of tomboy kids when I was young and there 67 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: aren't that many today, what happened. It's really that whole 68 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: mix of things that led me to think there's a 69 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: book's worth of material here. Oh my god, it's fascinating. 70 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: It's absolutely fascinating. Um. You mentioned that there was some 71 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: backlash from the op ed particularly Um I was informed 72 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: that it was from the transgender community. Okay, So when 73 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: you dug into that sort of stuff, the backlash, what 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: did you what conversations did you have with them? Well, 75 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: there were some people who wrote articles arguing against my 76 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: piece and saying, you know, what I was talking about 77 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 1: was how do we support trans kids but not assume 78 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: that a girl who is, you know, pushing against gender 79 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: norms is trans. And I had no idea that I 80 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: was like, not just stepping on feet, but stepping on 81 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: land lines with this. I did not know that there 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: was a kind of feminist trans culture war going on, 83 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,559 Speaker 1: which is not monolithic, right, Not all trans people feel 84 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: one way, not all feminists feel one way, but there 85 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: was a very vocal minority of people, and so some 86 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: of them felt that I had a son and I 87 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: was abusing my son, and my you know, that my 88 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: my son was going to kill himself and um. And 89 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: and that was like, you know, actually kind of proving 90 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: my point of like why why are gender stereotypes and 91 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: gender identity the same thing? And UM, I don't even 92 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: it's years later, I don't have an answer to that question. 93 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: I think it's a delicate, difficult thing to talk about. 94 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: Other people were saying, you're blaming trans people for adults 95 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: narrow understanding of gender. So what I did was I 96 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: contacted some of the people who had criticized me, but 97 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: I also contacted a bunch of prominent trans people like 98 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: Kate Bornstein. I contacted Chase Strango, who's a lawyer for 99 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: the a c L who had written this very viral 100 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: piece arguing against mine, UM, a number of trans experts 101 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: and gender therapists to really say, Okay, you think I've 102 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: got this wrong, Um, let's tell me more about that 103 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: and um. And that was a wonderful experience because I 104 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: did learn two see gender from multiple points of view 105 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: and in the end. I don't think I learned that 106 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: I was wrong. I stand by my original point, but 107 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: I did learn how to keep those viewpoints in mind 108 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: as I wrote how to be more sensitive, how to 109 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: be more inclusive, and how to write about one of 110 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:53,119 Speaker 1: the most difficult subjects in a way that hopefully didn't 111 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: make vulnerable people more vulnerable. So it was, it was, 112 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: It was a growth experience. Can you all me like, 113 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: just so that we're all understanding the same terminology? Like 114 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: what who is considered a tom boy? What is that? 115 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: What's the history of the term. Well, it turns out 116 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: I had to have a basically a whole chapter on 117 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: defining that term because it turned out to be so hard. 118 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: What does it mean? So it dates back to the 119 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: fift hundreds, and it originally meant a really boisterous, like wild, 120 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,239 Speaker 1: misbehaving boy because tom means tom type, tom cat, tom 121 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: turkey means male type and boy ment boy. After that 122 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,119 Speaker 1: it started to mean a kind of lascibious like slutty woman, 123 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: and then about a hundred years later it meant a 124 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: misbehaving girl who act like a boy, and that was 125 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: an insult for like two hundred years and in the 126 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, it actually became a term of pride, 127 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: so much so that the whole many parts of the 128 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: culture started encouraging women to raise their daughters as tomboys. 129 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: It became a method of child rearing to create healthy, 130 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: strong girls. But a lot of the stuff that we 131 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: would say was tomboyish acting like a boy is so 132 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: rooted in the time and the culture and race and class, 133 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: and there were things like whistling was considered a boy's activity, 134 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: So you would be a tomboy if you whistled, and 135 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: you would be and you would be. You couldn't dress 136 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: like a boy in the nineteenth century. It didn't matter 137 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: what clothes you were wearing. But your clothes might be 138 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,479 Speaker 1: ripped or torn or shabbier because you've been playing baseball 139 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: and climbing trees. So all these things that we think 140 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: of as boy typical and girl typical they shift depending 141 00:08:49,679 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: on what's happening in our culture at the time. When 142 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: I think of the word tomboy, I immediately go to 143 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: like characters like Joe March and Little Women, And for me, 144 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: like tomboy is a positive thing. Yet boys who are 145 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: interested in like stereotypical girl role norms. They're called derogatory 146 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: terms like sissy for example. What is the root of 147 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: this and what did your research reveal? Oh yeah, I 148 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: mean from the beginning, there's been the idea that this 149 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: kind of latitude that girls have to cross over into 150 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: boy territory that's tolerated or even encouraged. That's never happened 151 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: for boys. I think we're on the cusp of it now. 152 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: And there's never even been a positive word for a 153 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: boy like that. We have nancy boy, we have sissy. 154 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: That's you can right. No one wants to be called that, 155 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: and no one says that a initiatively. UM. One of 156 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: the things that really surprised me and the research was 157 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: finding out that until a hundred years ago, young boys 158 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: and girls, until about age six, when they went to 159 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: school UM were dressed the same, and they had long hair, 160 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: and they wore dresses, and they were lace and flowers 161 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: and frills, and none of that stuff was girl stuff, 162 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: and there weren't gendered colors. Kids were dressed according to age, 163 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: not sex, because the way that people understood gender, sex 164 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: and sexuality was that they were all mixed together in 165 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: their minds. Thinking about a little boy being a little 166 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: man was forced you to think about them as a 167 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: sexual being, and they didn't want to do that. And 168 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: the reason that that changed was that the fields of 169 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: psychology and sexology advanced and they began to think of 170 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: gay people as a classification of person. And the idea 171 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: was that the Nurk sure made you gay, not nature. 172 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: So they started encouraging boys to be in boy clothes, 173 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: because God forbid, they were wearing dresses and those sort 174 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: of icy things till they're five or six. Then God, 175 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: we've done something. They might be feminine, and then they 176 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: might be gay, because femininity and homosexuality were linked together 177 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: in people's minds. So the whole practice of dressing boys 178 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: in boys clothes and like never putting them in in 179 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: pink and frills and whatnot is to make sure that 180 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: they're not gay. And that was very hard for me 181 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: to stomach. I'm like, wow, there's abba it's literally woven 182 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: into our clothes. You know. I can't tell you how 183 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: different um I've I haven't. I've been very fortunate and 184 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: that I have not bought a single thing um for 185 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: my baby coming. I have a lot of friends who 186 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: had girls, and they sent me all their stuff it 187 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: looks like the closet barfed unicorns and rainbows of pink 188 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: and purple, and I it's such a struggle because the 189 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: one part of me is like this is a nightmare, 190 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: and the other part of me is like this ship 191 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: is free, Like I don't want to buy anything like 192 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: this is amazing. Um, tell me about pink and blue. 193 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: Tell me about where did this divide derive from? Well, 194 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: first of all, most people don't know what they're participating in, 195 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: what the roots of it are. And then the messages 196 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: they perpetuated by participating, they're not even awake to know. 197 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: I mean they think that there's there's boy stuff and 198 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: there's girls stuff. And I think now people say like 199 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: it's fine, So what what's wrong with pink? And what's wrong? 200 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: And you know nothing? The answer is nothing. That the 201 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: problem is the messages encoded in the different toys and activities, clothes, 202 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: and just the way we treat boys and girls differently. 203 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: In our minds, we don't, but all the research shows 204 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: that we do. And if you don't know the sex 205 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: of the baby objectively, someone tells you you will treat 206 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: that child differently, which is research that my family has lived. 207 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: When people have have assumed my child was a boy 208 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: or a girl. She has actually experienced being treated completely 209 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: differently right in front of us. And I think, I 210 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: think the thing that's important to know about the pink 211 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: blue divide and everything that's lumped in it is, you know, 212 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: pink has only really been considered completely a girl's color 213 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: since the middle of the last century, and it was 214 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: contested before. When they started gendering colors, maybe in the 215 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: in the twenties. Sometimes some places would say that blue 216 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: was for girls because it was associated with the virgin mary, 217 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: and pink was for boys because it's part of red, 218 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: and red is masculine. And these ideas were contests, did 219 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: and debated, and eventually for various reasons, including the growth 220 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: of suburbia and consumer culture in the fifties and the 221 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: fact that Mamie Eisenhower, President Eisenhower's wife loved pink and 222 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: decorative and pink, and these things happened together to solidify 223 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: these ideas. There's nothing wrong with pink, right, There's nothing 224 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: wrong with unicorns, there's nothing wrong with rainbows. The problem 225 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: is that when we mark things as for girls as feminine, 226 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: we automatically say that they're not as good until like, 227 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: you grow up and if you're gay and you're like, 228 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: I love unicorns, rainbows and sparkles, and it becomes like 229 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: you reclaim it as a pride. But what happens is 230 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: anything that's marked us for girls gets devalued. And so 231 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: another really really interesting piece of research I read was 232 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: about how these girls who go through the really intense 233 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: princess phase sometimes between the ages of three and six, 234 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: and they only want to wear pink, and they're really 235 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: like trying to perfect the stereotype and archetype of a girl. 236 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: And then they turned six, between six and eight, they 237 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: start saying, I hate pink, I hate princesses, and they 238 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: go through a kind of tomboyish phase. What I learned 239 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: from the psychologist doing this research of what they called 240 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: the PFD or pink frilly dressed to tomboy phase, is 241 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: that these girls are not just rejecting pink and pink 242 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: frilly dresses because they realize they're still a girl whatever 243 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: they wear, but because they realized that the world looks 244 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: down on that stuff, so they start pushing that stuff away. 245 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: Um and people think, oh, yeah, the princess phase is over, 246 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: but it's actually not something to celebrate because they've actually, 247 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: basically by age six, they've internalized all kinds of sexism. 248 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: So in our house, you know, everybody wears pink. My 249 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: husband wears pink, my super my super masculine daughter wears pink. 250 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: My super feminine daughter wears pink. Rainbows are for everyone, 251 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: barscles are for everyone, Unicorns are for everyone, and nothing 252 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: is off limits because it's marked for one sex or another. 253 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: We're just not doing it here. This is like a 254 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: a safe zone for colors activities. No one's gonna say 255 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: I won't do that because it's for boys, or I 256 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: won't do that because it's for girls. Yeah, like you 257 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: can't play with that truck or whatever. Like when you 258 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: were setting up nurseries, I'm not sure if you did that. 259 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: Were you super conscious about what colors went in there, 260 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: what toys like, was that a mission for you or 261 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: were you sort of like, that's not a battle I'm 262 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: fighting right now, And it didn't turn into it until 263 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: you had your daughter, and we're actually experiencing her taking 264 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: the lead on this stuff. So I think when I 265 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: had my first kid, I was doing what I thought 266 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: was gender neutral, which I revised since because For me, 267 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: gender neutral just means you ring everything. Everything's on the 268 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: tape everything, there's paint, there's blue, and there's everything else. 269 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: But um, I also got tons and tons of hand 270 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: me downs, and I didn't know what I was having. 271 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: So I kept the girl things that I liked and 272 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: that and the boy things I liked. But I wasn't 273 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: asking myself where did I get this idea of what's 274 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: girl stuff and boy stuff? And when all the kids 275 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: were segregating by sex and my kid went in the 276 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: middle of them, and I was like, what what is happening? 277 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: I still didn't ask myself, where did my ex Why 278 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: do I have all these expectations for her based on 279 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: her body parts? Like so she she came out female, 280 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: and then I had all of these ideas of who 281 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: she was going to be. Even though I was raised 282 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: hardcore feminist. My family is filled with, you know, lesbians, 283 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: like like they are all kinds of people not conforming 284 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: to gender in all kinds of ways, and yet I'd 285 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: kind of fallen into this trap of having sex based expectations. 286 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: So what this book allowed me to do? What's question 287 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: all of my own assumptions that I didn't even know 288 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: I had because I assumed, as like a lefty and 289 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: an educated person that I feel the same way. Like 290 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: I I'm like, oh, I'm fine. I have so many 291 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: friends that dressed differently and don't conform and love who 292 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: they love and you know where what they wear. And 293 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: I found myself with my son like he's being raised 294 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: by two musical theater actors and all he wants his trucks. 295 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: And I was stuck and disappointed as that, I mean, 296 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: I went a little bit the other way, Like I 297 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: just was like, are we really going to an l 298 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: A Sanitation department party to look at garbage? Like we're 299 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: going to look at garbage trucks? Because I just want 300 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: to do the things that he's leading that bring him. 301 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: He's three, right, Yeah, So most people, I sure did 302 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: not understand how kids learned about gender, And neither did 303 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: like my pediatrician or any of the grown ups in 304 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: my kid's life. And we didn't understand that at age three, 305 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: the great bulk of children don't know the difference between 306 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: gender stereotypes and sex. The ones who are interested in 307 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: like perfecting being a boy or being a girl. I mean, 308 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: and this actually applies to some trans kids too, right, 309 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: they want to prove their membership in the group, and 310 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: they know what the rules of membership are, so they 311 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: know that trucks are part of the membership. And and 312 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: for girls, you know, that's why they go through that 313 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: princess space. It's all about belonging, yes, And and we 314 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: often think that it's like the the trucks or the 315 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: pink dresses are what the bogy biological needs are about, Like, oh, 316 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: there must be an evolutionary reason that girls love pink, 317 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: that isn't it. The evolutionary impetus behind those behaviors is 318 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: the human need to belong exactly as you're saying. It's like, oh, 319 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: this is I've been told that this is my group, 320 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: and so I'm going to do everything I can't to 321 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: master that group. And then it opens up these questions 322 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: about kids like mine who why didn't she conformed? Why 323 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: didn't she need to master the group the group rules. 324 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: Eventually I was like, Oh, I guess it doesn't matter. 325 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: I guess it's a wonderful thing to be celebrated because 326 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: she's not internalizing all of those gender stereotypes, and so 327 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: I don't have to do all this work to pull 328 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: her away from the gender stereotypes because she's living in 329 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: this like limital space of freedom naturally, hallelujah. But then 330 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: I had a second one. Then I had a second one, 331 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: and that was completely different, right, completely different, totally different. 332 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: I keep getting reminded. We had Glenn and Doyle on 333 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: the podcast and her kids or teenagers, and she was 334 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: saying in the teenage land, which I haven't faced that yet, 335 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm horrifying, but but that it's amazing to see even 336 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: in her bathroom. The words that are used on her 337 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: son's deodorants and things like that versus her daughters, like 338 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: the sun's will are red, white and blue, and the 339 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: words that are very active, you know, like let's acts 340 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: are body odor and killing, you know, whatever it is. 341 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 1: It's very conquering. And then the female one or like 342 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: soft colors and very like sensual and words that are 343 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: soft and like you know, and she's like even that, 344 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: it's crazy. Yeah. And the boys are like you can 345 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: smell like wood or nature like outdoors, and then I 346 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: don't know, the girls are jasmine, floral, lavender, vanilla, vanilla. Yeah. Um, 347 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: what is your opinion of gender reveal parties? Oh? The 348 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: gender it's it's such a isn't it such a funny thing? 349 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: And just all the disasters that it's led to. Oh 350 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: my god, it just leads to fires, people getting hurt 351 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: and like, I mean, this is a new thing. Yeah yeah, 352 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: I mean as someone who's been studying gender really intensively 353 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: for a couple of years, you know, what are the 354 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: frustrating things for me about the whole discussion is that 355 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: most of us don't know what gender means. I mean, 356 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: and not only that it means different things to different people. 357 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: So we have these crazy culture wars that are really 358 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: about people having different definitions of the same word, competing 359 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: definitions that do different things. Gender means all of the 360 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: expectations and the stereotypes, all of the ideas we have 361 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: about people based on their sex. Then very often gender 362 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: is used as a synonym for sex. So in a 363 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: gender reveal party there actually it's really a genital reveal party. 364 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: That's what you're you're actually because that's all you know, 365 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: you know, even they're identifying as and you don't know 366 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: what they know they have a vagina, yeah, and you 367 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: don't know what they're gonna be. Like it doesn't you 368 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: get an idea of this kid's gonna be sweet. This 369 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: kid's gonna be you know, stay home and take care 370 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: of the parents. This kid's gonna marry a nice boy. 371 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: Your sex as a predictor of how how people will 372 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: treat you and interact with you, but it's not a 373 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: predictor of who you're going to become. Whatever we're celebrating 374 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: when we have a gender revealed party, which is our expectations, 375 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: our stereotypes, the ideas that we've imposed onto kids because 376 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: of their bodies. That's right. I opened up the email 377 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: saying I was having a girl. Yeah, and I sobbed 378 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: cheers of joy. Um. I've always wanted to be a 379 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: mother to a daughter, and um, whatever she's into, Like, 380 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: I don't care if she's a tomboy or whatever. Like 381 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: I just am really fascinated by a mother daughter relationship 382 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: and really wanted to experiences that in my life. But 383 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: I have to say, my son is a very physical player, 384 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: and already we're like, well, we're so happy we're having 385 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: a girl because he's going to learn empathy and compassion 386 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: and be soft with her. She might not be those things, 387 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: like you know, you know, that's the type of st 388 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: kids are. Wrestlers. I mean, and why I mean. I 389 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: think what people often say is if you have one 390 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: or two kids and you have ideas about gender, that 391 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: a lot of times those kids will cement those ideas 392 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: and they'll play into it, and you'll say, oh, yeah, 393 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: it is girls are like this. And but when you 394 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: ask people who have lots of kids, they end up 395 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: realizing like, oh, we can't just attribute everything to sex 396 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: or gender the way we we thought we could. I 397 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: think it becomes very overwhelming when the veil is lifted 398 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: and you see how you're participating in these ideas. Um. 399 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: I think what's happened for us is we've trained our 400 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: kids in it so much that they call us on 401 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: stuff all the time that I still don't know how 402 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: to even talk about my kids sex or gender. Like 403 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: when people ask me you have girls boys, and then 404 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: I'm always like, well, technically I have girls. But then 405 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: you're going to get an image in your mind that's 406 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: actually not going to be accurate for either of them, 407 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: because the truth is, one of them looks very masculine, um, 408 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: but it's really very sweet and kind, and the other 409 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: one looks very feminine and will beat you to Paul, 410 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: and it's really aggressive. And like wrestling. And I think 411 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: we have gotten to the point where we went from 412 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, or you wouldn't even talk about 413 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: the sex of your child too. It's all we talk about. 414 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: And we can settle back somewhere in the middle where 415 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: we stop attributing everything to their sex or gender. And 416 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 1: I was the same way. I wanted to have two girls. 417 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: I didn't want to have any boys. I didn't want 418 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: to figure out circumcision. And I also I just thought, 419 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: why is a good man so hard to find? It 420 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: must be really hard to raise one. And I wouldn't 421 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: know about that. And yet I got these two girls 422 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: who are so different, and I don't know who's going 423 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: to identify as what. Um. I've been hearing about parents 424 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: raising their kids as babies, that are their children that 425 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: are being brought up without gender designation from birth. Do 426 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: you think that's necessary, confusing good bad? Um. Yeah, I'm 427 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: friends with a woman doing that. I became friends with 428 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: her from interviewing her. Her name is Kyle Myers, and 429 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: she's fantastic and super smart, and um, she and I 430 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: are talking about very similar things about trying to figure 431 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: out how to raise kids without the imposition of gender messages, 432 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: and but she's much more focused on gender identity. And 433 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: so although she knows the sex of her child, and 434 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: I think that, like the teachers know the sex of 435 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: her child, she and her partner decided to raise UM 436 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: their kids Zoomer with they then pronouns and let Zoomer 437 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: choose a gender identity when they were ready to. And 438 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: that kind of protective bubble of ambiguity I'm talking about 439 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: is UM something that they tried to create in a 440 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: much more comprehensive way. And I think that that's a 441 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: fine and good way to do it. UM. I don't 442 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: think most people are ready to do that, And I 443 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: think that one of the things Kyle and I talked 444 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: about was, let's say you still want to acknowledge the 445 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: sex of your baby, you still want to use the 446 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: pronouns associated with the sex of the baby. How do 447 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: you still create all that space? And the way I 448 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: do that is by talking about trans and non binary 449 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: and gender career people with my kids and and really 450 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: telling them like what I've been saying all along, which 451 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: is the sex of your body is not a predictor 452 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: of anything. It's not a predictor of how you're going 453 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: to identify. Um, it's not a predictor of your sexuality, 454 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: it's just it's your sex. I hope, I hope my 455 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: kids love their bodies. Um. But I think that what 456 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: Kyle and other people raising babies are doing are trying 457 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: to create space for those kids. And I think there 458 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: are different ways to do it. But I do know 459 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: that the more I can remove the gender messaging from 460 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: my kids worlds, the freer that they are to explore 461 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: and figure out who they are and who they want 462 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: to be and feel like everything's available to them. No, 463 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: And I love this idea. Ce It's it's so are 464 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: you talking to you? Because I'm like, oh, if she 465 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: does do a princess phase and it ends, I'm going 466 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, thank you, good lord, let's get 467 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: the hell out of this. The feminist in me like, 468 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is terrible, like these princess movies 469 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: and the girl getting the guy in the happy ending. 470 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: This is crap. And then you're saying, actually, it's the opposite. 471 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: It's like not to push them to keep doing it. 472 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: But I'm saying, like, it's not a bad thing, Like 473 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: it's keeping all these things available at all times, right, 474 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: exactly and never using girly as an insult. Right, These 475 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: are all things I never questioned, right, these are just 476 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: things I went along with and just assumed that the 477 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: princess thing was bad, because, yeah, the messages in those 478 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: princess movies are bad. But you know, they go from 479 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: feeling proud of being a girl and proud of being 480 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: feminine to feeling shame about it and having to push 481 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: them away. And boys at the same age don't go 482 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: through a phase where they feel like, oh, I'm gonna 483 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: say I hate blue and I'm going to wear twotoos. Right, 484 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: it only happens to girls, and boys often get dig 485 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: down even harder into I only do boy stuff because 486 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: they've also realized, oh, girly is an insult. All of 487 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: the discussions that are about toxic masculinity or about girl's 488 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: low self esteem are all rooted in these early years 489 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: of understanding gender and gender hierarchy. I don't think we 490 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: need to keep going down this path if we become 491 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: aware that it exists. We don't even see that we're 492 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: on it. I mean I sure didn't. Oh yeah, do 493 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: you think it's time to retire the word tomboy? So 494 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: I think we're in such an interesting place with language, 495 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: and I feel like tomboy was this word that did 496 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: so much work for so long, because a girl could 497 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: say I'm a tomboy, and then people would change their 498 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: expectations of her. Oh, okay, well she's gonna play sports, 499 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: she's going to climb trees, she's going to have short hair, 500 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: she's gonna wear sweatpants. It made people leave them alone 501 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: some of them. For some of them, it didn't work, 502 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: especially trans boys who were being told you're just a 503 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: tomboy and you're not actually trans. But I think for 504 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: the great bulk of girls, for a century and a half, 505 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: this word gave them what I called them the book, 506 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: a protective bubble of ambiguity. They could just be this 507 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: other person. And then the words stopped working because feminists 508 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: were like, this word sucks. It's two masculines for a girl. 509 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: And other people were like, we should call these kids 510 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: gender nonconforming because it's gender and vitul and other people 511 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: were like, just call them girls. The language matters less 512 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: to me than stripping away our expectations of how someone 513 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: should be, um, who they should love, how they should dress, 514 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: what activities they should do, based on their bodies. That's 515 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: where I want to put the focus. If if you 516 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: want to call yourself a tomboy as a shorthand for 517 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: don't expect of me what you expect of other girls, 518 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: that's fine. If you want to say gender not conforming, 519 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: that's great. You have this idea about me because of 520 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: my body and I and I want you to change 521 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: that idea. Whatever words we come up with to help 522 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: people with that are fine with me. I think it's 523 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: fine to retire the word tomboy, but I think we 524 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: should do it with reverence and thank you for all 525 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: the room it gave girls for you know, I totally agree. 526 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: Um So, I keep hearing about countries like Sweden, um, 527 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: which a place where they're introduce using this national gender 528 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: neutral pronoun and they have gender neutral schools and where 529 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: sex differences are de emphasized. What do you think it 530 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: will take for the United States to achieve something like 531 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: what Sweden has. I don't think that having like a 532 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: million words for kids is necessarily what we need to do, 533 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: but rather just stop making so many decisions based on 534 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: sex and gender like they do in Sweden. Stuff is 535 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: for everybody, hair cuts off for everybody, colors are for everybody, 536 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: sign them up for the same activities. What's it going 537 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: to take to do that? I mean decades of decades 538 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: of repairing the psyche and soul of our nation after 539 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: you know, this reign of terror and sowing of discord 540 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: and hatred, and really good education for children that teaches 541 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: them how to think critically and to how to ask 542 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,239 Speaker 1: where did my ideas of normal come from? And not 543 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: feel so threatened by that? Right thinking critically, just thinking critically, 544 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: Like you go past a billboard, who is that? Like? 545 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: Why was that made? Who is that for? I was 546 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: never raised like that to question what was being fed 547 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: to me? Um, me too. I am also a regular person. 548 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 1: But I feel like through this research, I I feel 549 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: better about my parenting. I feel better about my decisions. 550 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: I feel better about, like how to mitigate the messages 551 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: that my kids get. Technically, I don't have a boy 552 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: as far as I know, and so I didn't have 553 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: to worry so much about like raising a person who's 554 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: going to treat women badly. But when you think about 555 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: what happens when you have a girl and you don't 556 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: have to throw out your boy hand me downs, right, 557 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: you can keep a lot of your son's clothes for her, 558 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: So if it was the other way around, you wouldn't 559 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: be sharing them. And now you're realizing, like, oh, there's 560 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 1: all this stuff he's never even had access to because 561 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: it was girl stuff and I didn't show it to him. 562 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: And and so what kind of idea does that build 563 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: in a boy's mind about girls, that their stuff. I 564 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't touch it, I shouldn't like it. What happens then 565 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: when they are interested in it? And what kind of 566 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: shame gets developed? If boys learned to appreciate what's thought 567 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: of as girly, to respect it, to be interested in it, 568 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: then I think there's a better chance that they're not 569 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: going to have to deal with toxic masculinity later, but 570 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: there'll be more respectful and kind and in touch with 571 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: their own femininity. Because femininity, as we conceive of it 572 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: in the society does not just belong to females. And 573 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: we know this, we owe it. And yet like cries 574 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: more than my dad, like nobody on the planet, this 575 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: guy cannot make it through sentences these days. It's crazy. 576 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: What a great model that is, How great that he 577 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: feels like he can Oh my god, it's it's like 578 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: it's crazy, this is okay. Before we wrap up, what 579 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: would you like parents and young kids today to take 580 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: away from Tomboy? It was the great intellectual experience of 581 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: my life writing this book. I learned so much and 582 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: my mind was blown over and over again. I got 583 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: to talk to so many interesting people, and also to 584 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: help more people be familiar with their work. I've always 585 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: been interested in the construction of normal. In my family 586 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: of nonconformists, normal has kind of an insult, So it's 587 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: really important for us to ask where our ideas of 588 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: normal come from and to decide how much we want 589 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: to participate in that or not. I think most importantly 590 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: for us to be aware of how much stuck we 591 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: put in these bodies, how many expectations we impose onto them, 592 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: how much we are participating in telling kids who they 593 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: should be based on their bodies. I don't think it's 594 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: that hard to undo it. I really don't. It doesn't 595 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: mean it doesn't mean that you don't have to practice 596 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: it every day, like you know, meditation. For the people 597 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: who do that, I really wish I was one of them, 598 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: or you know, or exercise all of the things that 599 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: are good for you but hard to do. This is 600 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: another one. It's good for you. It takes a little 601 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: push because you're going against the grain. But a lot 602 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: of people are feeling like culture is something that you 603 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: can't change. But what I learned from doing those researchers 604 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: that it's changed many times because we've pushed back against 605 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: the restrictive ideas of who girls should be. And now 606 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: it's time to bring boys along in that project. And 607 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: let's see who our kids will be if they feel 608 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: that freedom. The last thing I would want to say 609 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 1: is near the end of the book, I came across 610 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 1: all this research about how girls who are called tomboys 611 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: in these research studies, and even boys who might be 612 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: called sissies or gender nonconforming, the research showed that they 613 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: did better in school, that if they were facilitated and supported, 614 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: they tended to have more self confidence. The higher girls 615 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: rated on kind of tomboy scales, the higher paying job 616 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: they would have all the more the more creative they 617 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: would be like. And that basically having a kid who 618 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: is gender nonconforming, and I mean that not as a 619 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: gender identity, but as a way of being in the world, 620 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: that it's correlated to all this really good stuff because 621 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: gender norms are bad for kids. So if you have 622 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: a kid who is naturally resistant to gender norms, instead 623 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: of being worried about that, my messages celebrate that you 624 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: are so lucky and encourage other kids to follow suit 625 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: and just do their own thing and feel those kids 626 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: feel free. Lisa, this was incredible. Obviously, in this our conversation, 627 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: I feel completely prepared and like I'm pro level at 628 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: the gender conference. You already my son and daughter. The 629 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,760 Speaker 1: book is wonderful. I can't recommend your book more. And 630 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: and I just thank you Lisa so much for being 631 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: on katie'script. That was so wonderful. Thank you Katie. Everybody. 632 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts, your questions, your comments. 633 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. You can always reach me at Katie's 634 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: cribba Shonda land dot com. Katie's Grim is a production 635 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: of Shonda Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. 636 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shonda Land Audio, visit the I 637 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 638 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: your favorite chips. I Want you, Want You, I Want 639 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: you