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Speaker 1: From the moment Donald Trump entered the White House on

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Speaker 1: January twentieth. He made going after immigrants a priority, day

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Speaker 1: after day, week after week. He has gone beyond that

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Speaker 1: and also gone after Mexico as a country when it

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Speaker 1: hasn't done what he's wanted it to. He has threatened

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Speaker 1: tariffs on Mexican imports, designated Mexican drug cartels as terrorist organizations,

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Speaker 1: and says he has renamed the Gulf of Mexico, and well,

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Speaker 1: the list goes on and on. From Fludro Media and PRX,

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Speaker 1: it's Latino USA. I'm Marie jo Josa today a conversation

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Speaker 1: with journalists to better understand what's going on at the

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Speaker 1: US Mexico border and the delicate and long standing relationship

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Speaker 1: between the two countries. Today, I'm sitting down with Angela Cocherga,

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Speaker 1: longtime journalist who's also the news director for KTEP, the

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Speaker 1: public radio station in El Paso, and also sitting down

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Speaker 1: with renowned journalist and author Alfredo Corcado. They're going to

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Speaker 1: bring us context to help us understand the meaning of

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing in US Mexico relations right now, and

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Speaker 1: to help us make sense of it without falling into

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Speaker 1: the administration's trap of you know, basically being overwhelmed by

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Speaker 1: everything all at once. Thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me on Latino USA from the wonderful desert in El Paso, Texas.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Our pleasure.

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Speaker 1: It's been a while since we've all talked together, actually,

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Speaker 1: but I think the moment merits.

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Speaker 2: It not absolutely, very very a lot happening.

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Speaker 1: So I want to start by asking if the both

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Speaker 1: of you could talk about your personal relationship to Mexico,

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Speaker 1: to the United States and to the border, because the

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Speaker 1: three of us may know each other, but people are

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Speaker 1: there may not know you. So we'll start with you.

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Speaker 2: I'm from Durango, Elesta de la la Caran, born there,

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Speaker 2: grew up in Sa Juades because we were trying to

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Speaker 2: connect with my father, who at the time was Abraco

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Speaker 2: in the United States, in between El Paso, Arizona and California.

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Speaker 2: So from a very young age, at the age of six,

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Speaker 2: it was the border and this really became home, and

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Speaker 2: I reported for the Dallas More News among other publications,

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Speaker 2: for over thirty one years.

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Speaker 3: Well. I was born in Mexico City and also raised

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Speaker 3: in Guaera, La Jara and on the Texas Mexico border

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Speaker 3: of South Texas in the Rio Grande Valley, and so

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Speaker 3: have lived a bi national life, bi national, bicultural, bilingual,

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Speaker 3: and have been covering the border both sides, which I

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Speaker 3: think is really important, Madia, for as you said, decades now,

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Speaker 3: we are og reporters.

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Speaker 1: All right, so we are going to get into the

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Speaker 1: issues that are happening today, into the trump of it,

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Speaker 1: all right, But here at let you know, USA, we

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Speaker 1: actually think it's really important to look back at the history,

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Speaker 1: at the ups and downs in the relationships between the

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Speaker 1: US and Mexico in order to understand the context of

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Speaker 1: what's happening today. And we're going to keep this conversation

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Speaker 1: to the two thousands. We're going to start with nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven, which is something that actually completely changed how

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Speaker 1: the US treated immigrants and immigration, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I would say that nine to eleven profoundly

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Speaker 3: changed the border. The massive Department of Homeland Security was born,

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Speaker 3: and the focus was on security. So even legal trade

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Speaker 3: and people coming back and forth, everyone was perceived as

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Speaker 3: a possible threat. That made it very difficult. Passports were

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Speaker 3: now required, not just border crossing cars and cargo was

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Speaker 3: checked more thoroughly. So yes, it changed the dynamic from

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Speaker 3: neighbors and trading partners to possible threats.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward to what happens in Mexico. When President Philippe

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Speaker 1: Galdidon takes office.

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Speaker 2: Felipe Calderon declared war on the country's powerful cartels. He

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Speaker 2: sent the armed forces and federal police out on the streets.

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Speaker 1: So Felipe Calderon, the new Mexican president at the time,

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Speaker 1: declares a war on the drug cartels. And this basically

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Speaker 1: takes place from two thousand and six to twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: And this is a really important moment. But just Angila

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Speaker 1: give us a sense of how this affected Mexico and

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Speaker 1: also the United States.

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Speaker 3: It began as a violent presidency. He was sent a

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Speaker 3: message and I hate to be so graphic of several

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Speaker 3: decapitated heads being thrown on a dance floor and Mito

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Speaker 3: Khan and so kind of saying here, you want to

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Speaker 3: crack down, We're going to start this. And it became

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Speaker 3: horribly violent. It was a horribly bloody period and affected,

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Speaker 3: you know, not just it affected everyday Mexicans who who

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Speaker 3: were caught in the middle of all this. And this

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Speaker 3: bloodshed was horror and lasted for years.

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Speaker 2: When ninety eleven happens, all the focus is about terrorism.

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Speaker 2: But in Mexico the cartels became harder and more tougher,

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Speaker 2: more emboldened. That picture that Angela talked about, the heads

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Speaker 2: rolling in a bar in mitra Gan. I think for

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Speaker 2: someone like Aleron, this kind of gave him a way

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Speaker 2: and to sort of find legitimacy, and him going to

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Speaker 2: Washington and meeting with the President Bush and telling President Bush, look,

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Speaker 2: it's like we opened the body thinking there was a

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Speaker 2: tumor inside and we could just remove it, and realizing

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Speaker 2: that the whole body was rotten, that the corruption was everywhere.

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Speaker 1: This is when you start seeing massive movement of guns

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Speaker 1: from the United States into Mexico.

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Speaker 4: During my government, we seize more than ninety thousand weapons

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Speaker 4: to the criminals, assault weapons ear fifteen, almost ten billions

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Speaker 4: of bullets.

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Speaker 5: But they came from America.

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Speaker 4: Yes, they came from America. And most of the criminals

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Speaker 4: in Mexico are buying even legally.

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Speaker 1: And basically it's this dynamic right that the United States

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Speaker 1: and Mexico on the question of drugs, it is a

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Speaker 1: problem of the both of them. Rightly, these countries are

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Speaker 1: tied together because of that, but they're also, as we know,

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Speaker 1: tied together because of the economics of the United States

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Speaker 1: and Mexico being major trading partners. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: move now to that conversation. The Obama administration is now

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Speaker 1: in power, right, it's post two thousand and eight. Felipe

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Speaker 1: Calderon is in office. It's twenty ten, twenty eleven, twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: So these are years of economic recovery for the United States.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about that particular economic moment visa the

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Speaker 1: the US and Mexico and start us off NFORIDAM.

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Speaker 2: The recession was really felt on both sides, and you

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Speaker 2: started seeing this massive migration coming north. You know, at

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Speaker 2: the time, you know, people are talking about the New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: In Mexico and the lava. The people were supposed to

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Speaker 2: stay home, the younger generations were supposed to stay home,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly you just saw the influx of Mexicans going north.

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Speaker 2: And at the same time, you had a young US president,

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Speaker 2: President Obama, who was trying to at least in words,

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Speaker 2: he was saying, you know, they're trying to have this

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Speaker 2: landmark immigration reform, but to do that you had to

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Speaker 2: get operational control, whatever that means.

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Speaker 3: Angela and the Democrats have always tried to say, oh,

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Speaker 3: operational control. We're still trying to figure out what that

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Speaker 3: term means because it's constantly a goalpost that's moving. And

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Speaker 3: so President Obama earned during this time, then the porter

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Speaker 3: in chiefs. We also saw a different kind of migration

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Speaker 3: mighty as you know, families coming and children on their own,

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Speaker 3: the so called unaccompanied children, tens.

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Speaker 6: Of thousands of children crossing the US border from Central America.

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Speaker 5: Officials that members of the media into the Nogalis facility

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Speaker 5: were about one thousand children from I saw a little

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Speaker 5: boy and probably ten years old, and he was pressed

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Speaker 5: up against the chain linked fence, just holding up his

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Speaker 5: face with his hands and he was crying.

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Speaker 6: And today President Obama met with the presidents of Guatemala, Honduras,

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Speaker 6: and El Salvador to discuss what many are calling a

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Speaker 6: humanitarian crisis.

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Speaker 3: The US government struggling to figure out how do we

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Speaker 3: address this type of immigration or migration, and what do

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Speaker 3: we do, where do we even put families and some

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Speaker 3: very controversial questions there.

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Speaker 1: That kind of sets the stage for what happens with

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Speaker 1: a Donald Trump when he infamously gets on that gaudy

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Speaker 1: escalator in twenty fifteen and he announces his candidacy to

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Speaker 1: run for president and essentially insults Mexico. Angela did this

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Speaker 1: sort of set a new path?

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, there was shock and concern, and people

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Speaker 3: were insulted at all levels, both you know, people in power,

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Speaker 3: but also everyday Mexicans and Mexican Americans and others. But

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Speaker 3: the bottom line, Maria, he won the election, and the

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Speaker 3: border is a pignetta, and you bash it for votes,

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Speaker 3: you bash it for money, and it works.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the thing that really a stock

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Speaker 2: out of my mind for years was how badly Enrique

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Speaker 2: Paganetto treated the situation. He was under attack, his country

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Speaker 2: was under attack. And what Doesto do. He invites candidate

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Speaker 2: Trump to Mexico City.

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Speaker 1: I mean, essentially he rolls out the red carpet. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so Angela, let's go to the presidency of Andres Manuel

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Speaker 1: Lopez O Rador.

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Speaker 6: Celebrations broke out across Mexico City set the former mayor

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Speaker 6: of Mexico City, who's known as Amlo, will become Mexico's

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Speaker 6: first leftist president in decades.

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Speaker 1: A leftist, an indigenous man, and there is Manuel Lopez

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Speaker 1: o Rador and he ends up having a very particular

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Speaker 1: relationship with Trump in his first administration as well. Set

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Speaker 1: the stage and Aila, tell us what you remember of

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Speaker 1: that time.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was a time when you know, anytime

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Speaker 2: Trump make a thread, Lopez rod or what kind of

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Speaker 2: jump and say we'll do it, We'll do it. And

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Speaker 2: then the whole time you're you're realizing that this is

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Speaker 2: a very transactional relationship. I mean, I kept thinking, Mexico's

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Speaker 2: going to pay a huge price down the road.

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Speaker 1: And what do you remember about this time Mahi left,

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Speaker 1: We saw the budding relationship.

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Speaker 3: Really, Flower, these are two men who have a lot

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Speaker 3: in common. There are two sides, maybe different sides of

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Speaker 3: the same coin. Populist, powerful and really crushed critics. I'm

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Speaker 3: always not kind to any of his critics. You just

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Speaker 3: have to watch any of his early morning press conferences.

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Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino USA. Our conversation continues.

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Speaker 3: These military flights, which are much more expensive, hold fewer

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Speaker 3: migrants are are being filled up and camera shots sent

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Speaker 3: out so everyone can see them.

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Speaker 4: Stay with us.

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Speaker 1: Hey, we're back. We're gonna jump right back into our

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Speaker 1: conversation with longtime border and immigration journalists Ahela Corcherga and

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Speaker 1: Alfredo Corcado.

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Speaker 2: Okay, for primera vez endosientoso republica, me converertier in la

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Speaker 2: primera moheer president.

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Speaker 1: Now there's a new election in Mexico and I'm a

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Speaker 1: little successor wins. Her name is Claudia Shamebam. She's the

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Speaker 1: first woman president and she's very very different in terms

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Speaker 1: of her personality. This is a big, big change to

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Speaker 1: see Claudia Shamebaum in response to Trump, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start with you, Angila.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's imporn to point out she

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Speaker 3: is a protege of Amblo, but she's also come into

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Speaker 3: her own as the new president of Mexico, and she

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Speaker 3: has a very different personality. She's not a bombastic or flamboyant.

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Speaker 3: She's very calm. She's an academic and her dealings have

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Speaker 3: been very calm, cool and collected.

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Speaker 2: Shane Bond repeatedly says, you need someone what they like

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Speaker 2: Cavet Safria.

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Speaker 5: It's important Britain Caria to.

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Speaker 2: Deal with them. Shamee. Bond has learned the playbook, be nice,

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Speaker 2: play give him the marbles, give him the time out,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the corner. But at the same time,

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Speaker 2: keep the bigger picture, the fact that Mexico exports eighty

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Speaker 2: percent of its good to the United States, you know,

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Speaker 2: to focus on the migration, on the future of Mexico

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Speaker 2: in mind as you deal with this naughty, naughty boy.

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Speaker 1: Considering how Donald Trump deals with other world leaders, and

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Speaker 1: considering what we know in terms of how he deals

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Speaker 1: with women by the courts. By the way, this moment

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Speaker 1: of when we hear a Donald Trump saying, actually giving

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Speaker 1: praises to a woman, a Mexican woman at that.

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Speaker 5: But I've we was speaking to the president of Mexico,

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Speaker 5: a very wonderful woman. Actually we were talking about drugs.

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Speaker 5: I said, are you a You're not a big drug

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Speaker 5: taking nation and she said, no, we are not a consumer.

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Speaker 5: We're not a consumer of drugs. I said, what an

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Speaker 5: interesting and why why is that? He said? She said, well,

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Speaker 5: we have very strong family values. I said, but we

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Speaker 5: do too, She said, Plus we advertise. I said, whoh

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Speaker 5: you mean you advertise about how bad drugs are. Yes,

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Speaker 5: we do. We spend a lot of money on advertising.

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Speaker 5: And I said, unbelievable. You know, I make so many calls,

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Speaker 5: and I never learned anything from anybody. I know everything,

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Speaker 5: and I never learned anything from anybody. And I spoke

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Speaker 5: to this woman as soon as she said it. I

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Speaker 5: was going to call her and tell her that she did.

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Speaker 5: But now I don't have to call her because she's

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Speaker 5: going to be seeing this right now. So to the

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Speaker 5: President of Mexico, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: I think all world leaders have to be watching Claudia

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Speaker 2: to learn a thing or two about how to handle

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Speaker 2: President Trump.

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Speaker 1: We're going to move on to some more sadly difficult issues, right,

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Speaker 1: which is the question of deportations.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: Certainly Donald Trump has been very performative about serving this

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Speaker 1: up to his base, which I guess they want to

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Speaker 1: see family separated, children crying. You know. He has said

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Speaker 1: that he was going to conduct the biggest deportation effort

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Speaker 1: ever seen. So far, we haven't seen those high numbers.

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Speaker 1: How's this playing out?

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Speaker 2: We have correspondence from Tijuana, Sonora, from the Texas Valley, Reinosa, Matamotos.

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Speaker 2: We are just phased second a tour of many Mexican

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Speaker 2: shelters along the border, and the shelters remain empty. I

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Speaker 2: mean they have not gotten the kind of volume that

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Speaker 2: they thought they would. It can become a reality. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time they also know that this would

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Speaker 2: also be very, very hurtful for us the economy. We

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Speaker 2: are coming up against the harvest season in the United

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Speaker 2: States and we've all seen videos, you know, of empty feels, etc.

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Speaker 2: But it's impressive, how shamebon it is plain this. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's all for the cameras. I mean, I look at

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Speaker 2: and I think these are great optics. She's got the

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Speaker 2: National guardsman at the shelters, she has them digging tunnels

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Speaker 2: to see if they find any clad side tunnels to

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Speaker 2: smuggle immigrants. She's got them by the International Bridge looking

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Speaker 2: for fentanyl. And anytime this happens, there's a tip to

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Speaker 2: the price to show up, send a message a north.

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Speaker 2: And then she also is urging the private industry, the

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Speaker 2: public industry, to create jobs in Mexico, not only for

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Speaker 2: Mexicans who may be coming back home or who are

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Speaker 2: coming back home at very small numbers, but also for

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Speaker 2: Central Americans Venezuelanos, guvanos, people who may stay in Mexico

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Speaker 2: because Mexico also has industries at where there are workers shortages.

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Speaker 2: So she's looking at the immediate game and at the

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Speaker 2: long term what's to come Madia.

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Speaker 3: If I could jump in that's shelter and what is

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Speaker 3: that mega shelters one of ten all along the border

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Speaker 3: in border cities in Mexico Go that can hold up

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Speaker 3: to twenty five one hundred people and they're empty. So yes, prepared,

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Speaker 3: but up to now the numbers we have not seen

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Speaker 3: the numbers. We have seen people put on military flights

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Speaker 3: from here. We're kind of in the hub of it

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Speaker 3: all Il Paso. There's Fort Bliss, there's big army airfield

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Speaker 3: where these military flights, which are much more expensive hold

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Speaker 3: fewer migrants are being filled up and cameras shots sent

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Speaker 3: out so everyone can see them.

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Speaker 6: And for the first time, military planes are making deportation

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Speaker 6: flights at C seventeen at Fort Bliss, Texas migrants in restraint.

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Speaker 1: See about eighty men, women and children recent arrivals in

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Speaker 1: the US, stepping off buses and stepping on to military

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Speaker 1: transport jets. So it's interesting how both are using the

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Speaker 1: optics to appeal to their base as it were. One

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Speaker 1: thing that Donald Trump did do is to say that

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Speaker 1: he was going to give mexecond drug cartels designation of

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Speaker 1: foreign terrorist organizations, So you know, we have to think again.

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Speaker 1: We started by talking about nine to eleven, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of when the whole shift of the conversation moves

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Speaker 1: towards terrorism. Has it in fact become official that the

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Speaker 1: drug cartels are now in fact seen and dealt with

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Speaker 1: legally as terrorist organizations And what does this mean for

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Speaker 1: the relationship between the two countries.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's a very complex, complex situation

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Speaker 2: to designate them terrorists organizations because the cartels their hold

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Speaker 2: on the Mexican economy as such that they're in the

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Speaker 2: industry of tourism. What got these avocados? I mean, you

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Speaker 2: can go on and on and on. Some of these

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Speaker 2: industries have a buy in from foreign investors from the

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Speaker 2: United States. So to designate them it could be shooting

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Speaker 2: yourself in the foot. It could be very very difficult,

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Speaker 2: very embarrassing, if you will, for both countries. At the

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Speaker 2: same time, I think it's meant to be a thorn

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Speaker 2: on the side of shameebon to keep that label above

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Speaker 2: you and say no, you're not doing enough, No, no,

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Speaker 2: this is not happening. And by the way, you are

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Speaker 2: colluding with the cartels. And so it's a very I

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Speaker 2: think of all the challenges facing Shamebon, this is the

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Speaker 2: most difficult one. This is the more thorny one. But

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Speaker 2: I think when you talk to Mexicans on the street,

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Speaker 2: there's a sense of we need help from the United

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Speaker 2: States to deal with the security issue. It's a domestic

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Speaker 2: challenge but also an international challenge for the Shamebon.

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Speaker 1: So we've been talking about these, you know, long standing

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Speaker 1: politics between the United States and Mexico, two countries that

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Speaker 1: are inseparable from each other. In the area where you live,

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Speaker 1: El Paso, people are going back and forth all the time, right,

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Speaker 1: a very commercial and frankly full of life kind of

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Speaker 1: area in our country, Angila, tell us what it's been

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Speaker 1: like on a day to day, like, what are you

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Speaker 1: feeling given this new administration from Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I'm so glad you pointed out, Maria,

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Speaker 3: these are vibrant border communities where there is life, there

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Speaker 3: is joy, and there are families with ties on both sides,

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Speaker 3: very strong ties, economic ties, trade, all of that. But

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Speaker 3: there also is now this shared fear. As you know,

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Speaker 3: there are many mixed status families here and all over

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Speaker 3: the US. So people are concerned and concerned to do

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Speaker 3: basic things. And also because the state of Texas has

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Speaker 3: also had a crackdown, so you know, is Grandma going

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Speaker 3: to be okay? What about my child if I have to?

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Speaker 3: And people have families on both sides too, so back

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Speaker 3: and forth, people are afraid. We're starting to see this

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Speaker 3: low level harassment that's being shown on social media where

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Speaker 3: Ice and Border Patrol and others are going into businesses

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Speaker 3: and asking for papers, even though Border Patrol tells us

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Speaker 3: they don't randomly ask for papers. We heard about a

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Speaker 3: school bus traveling from Las Cruses, which is right in

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Speaker 3: our region on the New Mexico state line, trying to

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Speaker 3: go to Albuquerque a swim team. They say, there's a

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Speaker 3: congressman in this area looking into the Border Patrol got

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Speaker 3: on the bus at a checkpoint and ask people for

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Speaker 3: their papers. So there is beginning to have anxiety, fear,

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Speaker 3: concerns about what this means for everyday life here on

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Speaker 3: the border and beyond.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 2: Also, we can't forget what happened August twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 6: The suspect on the Opaso massacre total arresting officers.

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Speaker 2: He was targeting Mexicans that according to documents ob changed killing.

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Speaker 2: Images captured the gunmen on Walmart surveillance cameras range in

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Speaker 2: age from two to eighty two years old.

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Speaker 3: Navas cienos episodio torons with us.

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Speaker 2: The audio. And that's in the minds of a lot

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Speaker 2: of people I talked to on both sides of the border.

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Speaker 2: Passi plottus that President Trump has unleash hate to a

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Speaker 2: new level. I mean on the border. We always think

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Speaker 2: of the border as a pignata, you know, where every

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Speaker 2: four years politicians will come, they hit it hard and

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Speaker 2: then see their poll numbers go up, get the donations. Nowadays,

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Speaker 2: it's an everyday thing. You know, you hit the pinata

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Speaker 2: which has been weaponized, and you're waiting for something bad

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Speaker 2: to go wrong for for these hate crimes. As journalists,

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Speaker 2: we have to be very careful to report what he

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Speaker 2: does and not what he says.

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Speaker 3: And there is a real fear that words like invasion,

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Speaker 3: that those words will be used as that gunman did

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Speaker 3: to justify mass murder.

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Speaker 2: There's so much hatred that it e spawns all this

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Speaker 2: fear on the border, and the border has been moved

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Speaker 2: to other parts of the United States. The border is

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Speaker 2: in New York, City, it's in Wisconsin, it's in Michigan,

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Speaker 2: so that border, that sentiment, that fear is not just

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Speaker 2: here anymore.

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Speaker 1: Alfredo Corcardo, Angela Corcega, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me on Latino USA. We're not walking away from covering

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Speaker 1: this story, so I appreciate all of your work and

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Speaker 1: dedication as great American journalists, which I gotta ask, yes,

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Speaker 1: that was long time journals Ahila Cocherga. She's also the

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Speaker 1: news director for kat e P and El Paso and

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Speaker 1: journalist and author Alfredo Corcado, who is with El Puente News.

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Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Fernando Chavari, who was edited

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Speaker 1: by Andrea Lopez Rusado and we had production assistants by

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Speaker 1: Roxanna Guire. It was mixed by j. J. Carubin. We

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Speaker 1: had helped from Feature Story News Studios and Robert Fraser.

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Speaker 1: The Latino USA team also includes Julia Caruso, Beliicia Dominez,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Elis, Victoria Streda, Dominique Inestrosa, Renaldo Leanos Junior, Stephane

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Speaker 1: le Beau, Luis Luna Marta Martinez, Dasa Sandoval, Nour Saudi

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Speaker 1: and Nancy Trujillo Fenili Ramirez, Margen, Bishop Maria Gazia and

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Speaker 1: myself are co executive producers and I'm I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Madanga Polsa. Join us again on our next episode and

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Speaker 1: remember gomoci imprees.

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Speaker 5: Joao Latino USA is made possible in part by the

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Speaker 5: Heising Simons Foundation, unlocking knowledge, opportunity, and possibilities more at

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Speaker 5: hsfoundation dot org. The William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for

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Speaker 5: more than fifty years, advancing ideas and supporting institutions to

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Speaker 5: promote a better world at Hewlett dot org and Skyline

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Speaker 5: Foundation