WEBVTT - The Vanishing of SBF’s ‘Effective Altruism” 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast, 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:08.680 and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:24.800 Bloomberg News. It's Wednesday, December seven. Sound bankman Freed used 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.200 to say that he was on a mission. That mission 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.080 giving away more than a billion dollars in the service 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.839 of a movement known as effective altruism. My goal is 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.680 to do as much great as I can for the world. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.880 I I'm perfect Effective altruism comedy. Basically, it's a group 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.360 of people looking to try and figure out if you 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:45.280 want a maximized the amount of good you do, maximized 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.120 sup positive impact that you can have on the world 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.720 through personal giving and through a philanthropic unit called the 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.199 ft X Foundation, bank when free to pay it to 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.640 support causes ranging from pandemic prevention to research into climate change. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:02.120 Fast forward a bits on on bankruptcy later. That message 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.720 of using wealth to empower people and projects that are 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.520 doing the most to make positive, long lasting change. A 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.160 marketing line from the ft X Foundation's website now rings 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.760 a little hollow blue move reports to Sophie Alexander, A 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.240 lot of people have died who signed the giving pledge. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.520 We have no idea whether they actually gave away the 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:22.880 majority of their lifetime or wrote it in their will. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.480 And Laura Davidson, the amount of money that his foundation 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.440 said it gave or the ft X Foundations that it 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:31.880 give didn't actually go out the door. Join me now 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:47.200 with the backstory. So if you want, don't you introduce yourself. Hi, 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.000 I'm Sophia Alexander. I'm a reporter on the Wealth Team. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.960 I cover billionaires, what they're doing with their money, and 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.960 especially billionaire philanthropy. Such a busy time for billionaires and 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.320 what they're doing with their money. Laura, what about you? 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.600 I'm Laura Davison and I'm based down in Washington, d C. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.680 Where I'm covering wealth, but also um all things Congress 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.760 and tax policy and what politicians are up to. Again, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.639 just many things happening in your world. So let's talk 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.200 about the place where the intersections of your world are happening, 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.960 and that is a gentleman named Sam Bankman Freed, who 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:22.920 I'm no longer going to introduce on the show, because 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.680 if you're listening to a show about crypto and you 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.160 you've at least heard of what Sam Bankman tried is. 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:32.000 But perhaps you have heard either slightly less about or 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.040 don't quite understand what the concept of effective altruism is, 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.720 which is something that he was closely associated with, Sophie. 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:44.360 What does this crypto billionaire or perhaps former billionaire have 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.920 to do with this particular strand of philanthropy. Effective altruism 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:54.960 is this brand of philosophy and philanthropy that picked up 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.040 steam recently because it's caught the attention of billionaires like 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.440 Sam Bankman Free, but also Elon Musk. And what it 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.960 is is essentially the idea that you should make as 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.280 much money as you can to give it away, but 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.720 in a very effective way, hence the first word in 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.560 the term, but that means saving as many lives as possible. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.320 And there's a whole other strand of it called long termism, 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.760 and the idea behind that is trying to sort of 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:30.600 preserve humanities long term existence on this planet. So there's 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.720 a lot of focus on artificial intelligence research and trying 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.760 to make sure that the robots basically don't kill us 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.080 in the future. They're are definitely gonna kill us. But 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.800 when you say things like trying to preserve humanity, I 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:45.680 think of, you know, cryogenics and this idea that people 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:47.320 have like, well we can what we can all freeze 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.680 ourselves and be and be alive. I'm not sure if 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.080 effect of altruism had much to do with cryodraonics, but 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.360 what I do know is that part of the tension 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.280 that I've seen in terms of the criticism is how 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:00.920 do you know if stuff is working? Like, if you 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.040 have such a long term time horizon, how are you 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:08.400 even measuring the efficacy of your effectiveness? The things that 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:12.160 they focus on sort of get at that, like, but 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:13.880 there's no way of knowing whether people are going to 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.840 be around in two hundred, a thousand years or whatever. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.719 But they're trying to focus on issues that will prevent 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:26.640 the collapse of humanity. Pandemic preparedness. Research on bio security 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:31.920 is increasingly popular, especially from SPF, and then artificial intelligence 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.760 is a big one as well, especially among not just SPF, 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:36.839 but also Elon Muski does a lot of that as well. 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.560 And to your point, not about being like yea robots, 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.440 but more about neigh robots more so, like doing the 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.720 research now to make sure that artificial intelligence is developed 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.800 in a safe way. Got it, Laura, You're in d C, 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.159 which is in a lot of whiz the opposite of 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:02.720 Silicon Valley, from the fashion to the focus to just 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.360 the way that you know, the priorities that people have 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.760 spf for lots of reasons associated with you know, lobbying 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.880 efforts around trying to get certain types of regulations in place. 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.720 Spent a lot of time in d C. Was he 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.080 successful in persuading people around him to like buy into 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.240 this effective altruism vision from your perspective, he really talked 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.480 about pandemic preparedness as being one of his key drivers 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.559 for political giving, which raised a lot of eyebrows because 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.560 there is almost zero talk in DC about pandemic preparedness, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.880 at least among politicians and Congress, in the White House, 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.720 maybe in some corners of some agencies. But this has 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.240 really been sort of an interesting way to see how 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.560 he spent his money to really bring to life some 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.279 of these ideas that he's talked about. His crypto giving 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.080 or his political giving. Really most people believe that was 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.760 more focused towards crypto when you look at and crypto 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.839 regulation or less regulation as the case. Maybe he was 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.880 giving to the key figures there where you see some 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.280 of these more altruism ideas come to light. Is in 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.600 this foundation giving though as a reporting to show that 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.240 the amount of money that his foundation said it gave 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.719 or the FTX Foundation said it give didn't actually go 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:14.920 out the door. Um, you know, they had a bunch 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.640 of grants that never ultimately got paid and in some 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.120 cases some of that money actually maybe clawed back as 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.120 part of the bankruptcy proceedings. Now, just for context, is 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.640 this common in philanthropic giving? Like, is there often this 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.680 discrepancy between Hey, we're planning to give all this money 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.520 and is it just that the timelines along it's like 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.680 hard to give money? Like what's going on here? In 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.800 like the broader like world of billionaire philanthropy, there are 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.200 a lot of promises that are made, like the giving pledge. 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:47.320 It's a pledge to give away the majority of your 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.120 wealth in your lifetime or your will. You know a 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.600 lot of people have died who signed the giving pledge. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.880 We have no idea whether they actually gave away the 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.280 majority of their lifetime or wrote it in their will. 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.280 The majority of your wealth is you know a big 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.680 question work because you know, Jeff bezos Is wealth has varied. 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.159 You know, tens of billions of dollars since this time 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.560 last year. He said recently that he wants to give 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.200 away most of his wealth in his lifetime, But what 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.080 does that actually mean in terms of dollar figures? Now? 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.000 Talking about SPF and his pledge. You know the grants 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.640 that they said they made on their page, you know 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:25.520 a lot of those weren't paid yet. A lot of 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:29.040 that has to do with paperwork. There's a lag. I 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.640 think there is a lot of PR to the world 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.520 of billionaire philanthropy. So sort of like slapping all these 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.000 big numbers up makes a person look good, and in 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.280 SPFS case, that's that's also true. Right to your point 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.000 about billionaires saying they're going to give things, it does. 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.480 I'm reminded of when people were super surprised that Mackenzie 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.600 Scott formally Mackenzie Scott Bezos was just like literally giving 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:53.560 money to just turn up and be like, here's a 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.040 bunch of money. Buy I am fascinated by what you said. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.640 They're about this idea of PR because bank mun Freed, 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.480 who has been on a bit of a like texting 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.920 with reporters tool in a text thread with a report 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:13.480 at Vox Media, appeared to concede that for him, at 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.680 least some of this effective alcatraism stuff was just pr 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.440 How seriously can we take this movement in general, like, 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:25.600 is it unfair to ascribe, you know, cynicism to the 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:29.600 vast majority of these folks. It's hard to know what 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:34.959 people's real intentions are. Philanthropy has in history been a 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.360 very good pr tool. I mean, if you think about 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.959 Rockefeller today, you think a lot about his philanthropy, literally 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.880 the Rockefeller Center exactly in New York and Carnegie. You know, 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.480 you think about his public works, his libraries and things 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.959 like that. You don't think of the fact that they 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.280 were robber barons. And you know, the same has been 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.200 true for you know, billionaires who are still alive today, 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.200 like Bill Gates. You know, twenty years ago, people didn't 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.920 think of him as a fantastic philanthropist. They thought him 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.240 as this evil monopoly man. And that Look how much 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.280 that has changed. Sam. For the Sacklers, who you know, 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.880 are implicated in the opioid crisis, their names are slapped 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.840 over museum buildings all across the country, and until recently, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.040 no one thought anything of it. So it is hard 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.680 at this point to think, okay, yes, we can take 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.520 this billionaire at his word that you know he really 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.040 does mean well, he's just trying to make as much 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.360 money as possible to give it away. Maybe we should 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.480 start asking the question of how are they making their money. 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.160 The other thing, too specifically about SBF is that he 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.800 clearly was very conscious about who he gave money to 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.559 and the reasons he was giving that money. He told 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.920 Fox recently that he gave as much money to Republicans 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.760 as he gave to Democrats for political donations through dark money. 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:52.840 He sent through dark money, which of course can't be 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.439 verified by definition. Those groups don't publish their list of donors, 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.680 so it's very hard to know whether that's true. But 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.040 the reason he said he gave through dark money groups 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.920 versus giving to more public entities was because reporters freak 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.920 out when billionaires give to Republicans. So it was clear 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.880 he was thinking about what is the perception of this 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.760 giving that I'm doing. So this is SBF saying the 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.400 reason he used dark money was to avoid you know, 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.920 quote unquote reports was freaking out. Yes, and you look 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.840 here to the people that were receiving money from the 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.560 ft X Foundation. It's a lot of academics. It's a 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.880 lot of researchers including you know, undergraduate students and PhD students, 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:35.200 master students, some really small dollar donations, you know, comparatively speaking, 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:36.720 you know, things that are in like the tens of 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.520 thousands of dollars, but people that were influential in the 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.959 field and that we're very influential online of sort of 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.120 pumping up f t X as well as the effect 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.640 of altruism movement. Now, I just want to kind of 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.960 segue briefly into Future Fund and this idea of influence 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.240 because it was a part of the overall ft X 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:57.720 foundation that was, according to their marketing materials on their website, 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.679 funded by what looked like Bankman Freed's inner circle. Right, 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:06.480 So you had Caroline Allison from Alameda, Gary Wang sing 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.360 what did they do exactly? Like what was the Future Fund? Yeah? Sure, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.560 this was actually a really kind of novel and also 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.800 very complicated organizations. So they basically had two tiers of 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.040 grants that they gave out. They gave up bigger grants 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.960 which were more like a traditional foundation where you know, 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.880 applicants could apply and get you know, kind of hundreds 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.640 of thousands or millions of dollars. They also had this 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:30.960 whole re grant or structure where they had more than 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.400 a hundred people that were active in the effect of 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.240 altruism community who would identify different researchers or projects that 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.080 they thought that they were deserving of, you know, sort 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.599 of smaller dollar amounts of money. So these are a 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.800 lot of students who are applying for specific projects that 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.360 they were working on, or kind of ragtag groups of 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.240 of people who were starting different side hustles and they 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.160 could apply to get this money. So it was really 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.600 kind of broad. You know, you look at people from 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.640 you know, it was Trump's former head of Operation Warp Speed, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.719 who's writing a memoir. You got some money, as well 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.160 as you know, a Harvard undergraduate it got thirty dollars. 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.760 Up next, more from Bloomberg reportos Sophie Alexander and Laura 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:17.960 Davison on what's happening with effective altruism and crypto. Now, 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.240 we've talked a bit about these smaller dollar amounts and 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.520 the influence, and so I feel like we have to 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.600 talk about one of the influencers of this whole movement, 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.240 which is William David McCaskill. And when I googled him 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.560 as research for this. It was like a bunch of 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.080 photos of him staring off into the middle distance, like 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.439 really intently, and he you know, he has been described, 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.240 as it were, as a charismatic leader. Who is this 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.199 dude and what was his relationship to the ft X 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.640 Foundation and to the e A movement. He is one 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.800 of the originators of the effective Altruist movement. He's a 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.840 philosopher and he was actually on the team of the 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.640 ft X Future Fund. He was one of the people 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.600 who signed the letter that went up on e A Forum, 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.720 a community online from the team behind the Future Fund 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:13.280 after the whole thing collapsed, saying hey, we resigned, big apologies. 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.600 If you have questions and you're a grantee, please email 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.640 us here. So it's unclear to me, at least in 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.840 my reporting, what the relationship between SPF and McCaskill was, 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.199 but it does sound like from Ellen Hewett's story recently 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.160 with Peter Singer, she did an interview with Peter Singer, 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.320 it sounds like SBF was making the rounds with this group. 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.800 Peter Singer is another originator of the movement, alongside McCaskill, 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.640 another philosopher at Stanford, So it sounds like they were 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:47.079 swimming in similar circles and no shade to philosophers. So philosophers, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.200 please don't come from me for what I'm about to say. 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.760 But most philosophers aren't like household names. McCaskill was on 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.000 The Daily Show with Trevor Noah McCaskill welcomes to the 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.320 Danny Show. Thanks so much for having me. M it's 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.400 it's it's interesting speaking to a philosoph because when they 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.760 say philosopher, I remember thinking, oh, it's probably gonna be 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.800 like a ninety year old man with like a stick 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:14.360 and what is the meaning of life? But this is 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.240 an extremely savvy group of folks. Is that sort of 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.600 common in these EA circles that they are, you know, 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.240 kind of strategic about getting their message out in these 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:28.120 larger forums, in the larger forms, I'm not sure. I 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.080 mean recently, just within this past year, it's been interesting 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:36.600 to watch them sort of gain influence in these billionaire circles. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.280 Like I said earlier, Elon Musk has also espoused the idea. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.160 I don't know how recently, but at least earlier this year. 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.240 There was a poker player named Igor Kirganov, who was 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.000 in charge of his foundation, and he is where Elon 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.520 Musk's foundation was run by a poker player. Yes, cool, 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.840 a poker player, And it seems like there are a 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.880 lot of poker players who are involved in the effective 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.040 altuist movement. This guy, yougo or Kirkanov was big in 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:08.160 the e A space. Now, I just said, no shade philosophers, 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.560 but some shades billionaires. One of the things I've noticed 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:15.240 about billionaires is they seem to be hypersensitive to associating 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.480 themselves with people who are cool, because a lot of 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.080 billionaires aren't cool. And so tell me a little bit 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.840 about you know, these kind of billionaire circles and who 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:28.000 they're being influenced by. Well, with Elon Musk, it's a 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.680 completely different story because it's unclear like how many real 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.920 close friends he has. You know, this year he had 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.520 this poker player running his foundation who he apparently met 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.000 at Burning Man. You know, he dates grimes, he like, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.000 you know, he's doing all this stuff. Who knows who's 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.200 actually close with him and who is just associating with 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.040 him for the proximity to his power. So that's that's 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.560 the circle that Ellen Musk runs in with SPF. It 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.600 sounds like it was this tight knit circle of FTX 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.720 folks and also effective altruists. I just I feel like 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.520 I have to close with this anecdote because it's too 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.400 good not to. In the New Yorker profile of William McCaskill, 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.480 they have this sentence, McCaskill like to drink too many 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.000 pipes of beer and frolic about in the nude, climbing 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.920 pitched roofs by night for the life affirming flush. He 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.480 was a saxophonist in a campus funk bland that played 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:25.240 the Mabels and was known as a hopeless romantic incredible 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.800 thank you both, thank you, thank you. That was super fun. 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:33.920 I learned at least five wild things. You can find 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.000 more of their reporting on the Bloomberg terminal and on 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.920 Bloomberg dot com, and do check out our newsletter, which 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.120 is also called Bloomberg Crypto. You can get that in 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:48.640 your inboxes twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays. This 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.720 is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.080 Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.120 the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:02.200 get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:07.879 for the show to Crypto at bloomberg dot net. The 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.879 supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.520 producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Farouk and 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.240 Sharon Barriro. Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.560 on Them. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:28.600 by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie schmil We'll be back tomorrow.