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Speaker 1: Heys Alek. On February sixteenth, it was announced that Russian

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Speaker 1: opposition leader Alexey Navalni had died in prison. From January

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one on, he was in Russian captivity because

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Speaker 1: of charges including fraud, embezzlement and extremism. Navalni had recently

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Speaker 1: been transferred to a remote penal colony in the Arctic Circle,

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Speaker 1: where Russian authorities claimed that the forty seven year old

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Speaker 1: Putin critic died from sudden death syndrome after taking a

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Speaker 1: walk in the penitentiary. Many world leaders have blamed Vladimir

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Speaker 1: Putin directly for Navalni's death. In twenty twenty two, I

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Speaker 1: spoke with Daniel Roher, the director of the Academy Award

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Speaker 1: winning documentary Navalny. The film follows the activist as he

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Speaker 1: recovers from a previous Russian assassination attempt and the lead

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Speaker 1: up to his voluntary return to Russia. Here's my conversation

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Speaker 1: with director Daniel Roher and investigative journalist Kristo Grotzev. This

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Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing

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Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio. When Russian opposition leader and fierce Putin

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Speaker 1: critic Alexey Navalni fell violently ill on a flight in

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Speaker 1: August of twenty twenty. It was suspected he was poisoned

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Speaker 1: by Novachak, a Soviet era nerve agent. He was medically

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Speaker 1: evacuated to Berlin and fell into a coma, but miraculously survived.

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Speaker 1: My guests today, filmmaker Daniel Rohrer and investigative journalist Kristo Grotzev,

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Speaker 1: were at the center of the unfolding drama that resulted

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Speaker 1: in the gripping documentary Navalni. The film documents the quest

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Speaker 1: to identify those responsible for the poisoning and the plight

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Speaker 1: of Alexei navan whose anti corruption platform landed him in

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Speaker 1: a Russian prison, where he remains to this day.

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Speaker 2: Come on poisoned, would's supposed to be not so stupid

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Speaker 2: to use this nauvichalk.

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Speaker 1: If you want to kill someone, just shoot him.

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, It's impossible to believe it.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of stupid.

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Speaker 3: The whole idea of poisoning.

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Speaker 1: With a chemical weapon. What the fuck?

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Speaker 4: This is?

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Speaker 1: Why this is so smart?

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Speaker 2: Because even reasonable people they refuse to believe, like what,

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Speaker 2: come on poisoned?

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Speaker 1: Seriously prior to Navalney, Daniel Rohr directed the feature documentary

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Speaker 1: Once We're Brothers, Robbie Robertson and the Band about the

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Speaker 1: rock group. He also shot and directed several short dogs

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Speaker 1: and has been nominated for multiple Canadian Screen Awards. Roar

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Speaker 1: has been developing his craft since a young a. He

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Speaker 1: spent a year at SCAD, the Savannah College of Art

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Speaker 1: and Design, but found his passion in a high school

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Speaker 1: film class at the Tobacco School of the Arts in Toronto.

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Speaker 3: We had this fabulous film teacher.

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Speaker 4: He was like a sort of crimugey, cool nice guy

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Speaker 4: and he was very same mister Johnson Kevin, and he

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Speaker 4: had this film class, and so I had a little

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Speaker 4: cohort of film friends. We called ourselves the Man Clan,

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Speaker 4: and the joke was we were not manly at all.

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Speaker 4: We were a bunch of film nerds and we would

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Speaker 4: just This was when DSLRs became a thing, So about

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Speaker 4: ten years ago or fifteen years ago, you could buy

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Speaker 4: a little DSLR for seven or eight hundred dollars and

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Speaker 4: you could get a shallow depth of field an image

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Speaker 4: that looked like a movie. And to me, at seventeen

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Speaker 4: years old, that was revelatory and so my friends we'd

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Speaker 4: run around Toronto. We once had the subway system shut

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Speaker 4: down by accident setting off smoke alarms. My dad still

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Speaker 4: gives me a hard time for the time I set

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Speaker 4: up off the smoke alarm in his house when we

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Speaker 4: were seventeen or eighteen. But being creative, making movies, making things,

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Speaker 4: and it all started for me in a tobacoats, fabulous

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Speaker 4: school that I was able.

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Speaker 3: To attend when I was a teenager.

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Speaker 1: Now when you went to SCAD, because I love SCAD,

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Speaker 1: and Scat's like a lot of these schools who over

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Speaker 1: the arc of my lifetime, you know, many decades now

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Speaker 1: they have you know, raised the money and grown so significantly.

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Speaker 1: And you know SCAD, when you go down there to Savannah,

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Speaker 1: they've taken over half the town. You know, every available

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Speaker 1: building they bought and have incorporated into that program. And

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Speaker 1: you went there for just one year and not even

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Speaker 1: a full year.

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Speaker 4: I went there for about a year. I was in

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Speaker 4: Savannah for one year and amazing place.

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Speaker 3: Super cool town.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not a school guy, and it has nothing

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Speaker 4: to do with that school.

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Speaker 3: It's just that no.

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Speaker 1: Matter what Kevin Johnson imparted to you, no, you had done.

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Speaker 1: I was finished with Kevin Johnson's mic Drop.

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Speaker 3: That was it with keV.

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Speaker 1: That was it. I learned everything you needed to know

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Speaker 1: from Kevin.

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Speaker 4: From Kev's film class, mister Johnson's film class, I learned

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Speaker 4: everything I needed to know. And I decided that I

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Speaker 4: wanted to make documentaries and the best way to do

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Speaker 4: that would be to just make documentary. Why documentary, Well,

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Speaker 4: documentaries were this art form that for me existed at

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Speaker 4: the confluence of all these things I was interested in.

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Speaker 4: I was very curious about traveling and seeing the world

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Speaker 4: and history and art and culture and filmmaking, cinematography, editing,

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Speaker 4: but also music and drawing, animation, painting. Were your parents

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Speaker 4: in the arts, They were in retail, they's smutta business.

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Speaker 4: My mom and dad had a clothing store called Higher

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Speaker 4: Ground and Higher Round for Kids in Toronto for about

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Speaker 4: thirty thirty five years, and so my dad sold outerwear

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Speaker 4: like North Face, Patagonia, ur characters, Canada, Goose and so

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Speaker 4: we were always the spirit of travel was something that

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Speaker 4: we was always imparted onto. My brother and I would

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Speaker 4: go on canoe trips in Algonquin Park as teenagers and

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Speaker 4: as kids, and so I always had the sense of

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Speaker 4: traveling and getting out into the world with.

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Speaker 3: Something really important and valuable.

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Speaker 4: And my dad has a bunch of corny phrases that

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Speaker 4: he always says that are just foundational to my life,

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Speaker 4: and one of them is travel off the bet path.

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Speaker 4: And certainly that's the choice I chose when I dropped

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Speaker 4: out of school and tried to pursue other things.

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Speaker 1: Now the film is out.

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Speaker 4: The film is going to be released in eight hundred

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Speaker 4: cinemas around the US on April eleventh and twelfth. Oh, okay,

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Speaker 4: And this is obviously extraordinarily exciting for all of us.

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Speaker 4: A screen that's a lot of screens for a dog,

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Speaker 4: and certainly Warner Brothers, who were so grateful as distributing

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Speaker 4: the film, understands the critical mission of getting this film

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Speaker 4: out now as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 1: When did you first become aware of Navalne.

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Speaker 4: I've been aware of Navalney for a few years now,

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Speaker 4: just because I'm interested in Russia and Russian politics and

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Speaker 4: geopolitics is something that I'm interested in. And if you're

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Speaker 4: in the West and you're interested in Russia and Navalne's

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Speaker 4: name is unavoidable. But certainly my interest in him peaked

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Speaker 4: in the summer of twenty twenty when news circled around

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Speaker 4: the world that he had been poisoned. And I remember

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Speaker 4: vividly this three day struggle when he was in this

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Speaker 4: hospital in Siberia and the authorities weren't letting him leave,

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Speaker 4: and there was this weird behavior happening, something strange was

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Speaker 4: going on, weird thing that they wouldn't let him go,

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Speaker 4: they wouldn't let him go to Germany, and eventually they did.

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Speaker 4: They relented. He was poison to sink in there a

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Speaker 4: little longer.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 4: I think, so sink in or fade out, so the

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Speaker 4: Germans couldn't detect that. And so that was in my consciousness.

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Speaker 4: So at no point did it ever cross my mind

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Speaker 4: at that stage that oh, I should go make a

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Speaker 4: movie about this guy. It never would have entered my

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Speaker 4: my plane of reality.

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Speaker 3: Well, I just I was.

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Speaker 4: Sitting in Toronto painting an apartment. I just didn't occur

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Speaker 4: to me. It wasn't until I was sitting next to

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Speaker 4: this man, Krysto Grosev, who's here with us today, that

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Speaker 4: I thought, oh, maybe we should go make a film

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Speaker 4: about this, Maybe we should go pursue there is.

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Speaker 1: The same way with all of even your earlier shorter films.

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Speaker 1: You do the one about sex abuse, but from the

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Speaker 1: priest and the indigenous People's played.

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Speaker 4: Them prolific sex offender in Canadian history as I made it.

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Speaker 1: The name of the film is Survivor's Row Survivors because

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Speaker 1: his name is Roe.

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Speaker 4: The man's name is Ralph Roe, who's an Anglican minister

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Speaker 4: that had this little prop plane and he would fly

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Speaker 4: up to these communities and everyone adored him. He was

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Speaker 4: like this wizard missionary fly in and everyone thought it

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Speaker 4: was great. And he'd take the kids on camping trips,

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Speaker 4: but only the boys. And it turned out that he

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Speaker 4: was one of the most insidious criminals in Canadian history.

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Speaker 4: He abused hundreds, if not thousands of boys. And so

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Speaker 4: when I was twenty one or twenty two, made a

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Speaker 4: short film with this extraordinary film producer in Toronto called

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Speaker 4: Peter O'Brien, and we made a film about this man's crimes.

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Speaker 1: Was in his idea and he hired you to director.

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Speaker 4: That's right when I was twenty or twenty one, and

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Speaker 4: that film made a little bit of noise. People saw it,

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Speaker 4: and I think was very significant as a tool for

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Speaker 4: the community to heal and have that special but it

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Speaker 4: was very challenging and we've since entered a different place

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Speaker 4: in Canada. I don't know that that's a film I

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Speaker 4: would have directed now. I think that we would be

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Speaker 4: much better suited finding one of the many indigenous filmmakers

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Speaker 4: to tackle that story.

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Speaker 3: But in that moment you feel sensitive about that, well,

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Speaker 3: very much course, absolutely.

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Speaker 4: I think now it's very important we have to think

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Speaker 4: about who gets to tell what story. And in twenty

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Speaker 4: thirteen or twenty fourteen, when I made that movie, I

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Speaker 4: had no consciousness of that that's not something that was

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Speaker 4: on my radar. It was only years later later that

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Speaker 4: I reflected on it and questioned whether or not I

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Speaker 4: was the right guy to tell that story. And the

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Speaker 4: film was successful and I think the community was appreciative

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Speaker 4: that I made it. But I think now I would

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Speaker 4: I would really question that, and I would really seek

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Speaker 4: community consultation.

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Speaker 1: And it's complicating to note that you're you know, when

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Speaker 1: you talk about your career in the brief minutes we've

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Speaker 1: been talking now, you lose sight of the fact of

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Speaker 1: how young you are, you know, So it was we

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Speaker 1: tell the audience that you're twenty nine years old, twenty

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Speaker 1: eight twenty oh, thank you very much. He's on Hollywood

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Speaker 1: full ball now, he's full flag Hollywood now, the twenty

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Speaker 1: eight year old Daniel. You don't realize it. You don't

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Speaker 1: been doing this for years now, and this inclusivity diversity

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Speaker 1: thing has unfolded most vividly during those ten years, during

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Speaker 1: your career, your.

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Speaker 4: Lifetime, absolutely, and especially in Canada, are consciousness about the

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Speaker 4: vital necessity of which communities get to tell which stories

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Speaker 4: has really.

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Speaker 3: Just come to the forefront.

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Speaker 4: It's something that I'm mindful of, as you know, a

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Speaker 4: Jewish kid that grew up in Toronto. It's something that

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Speaker 4: I really have to think about.

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Speaker 1: My view was that, you know, it's the success of

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Speaker 1: an individual filmmaker's career leads them to where they are today.

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Speaker 1: There's films you are making now that people are benefiting

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Speaker 1: from their learning about the world. Documentary films can often

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Speaker 1: be the beachhead for people to understand a topic, to

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Speaker 1: understand events and history beyond books and beyond classroom learning.

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Speaker 1: Documentaries have become tools for learning. And I say to myself,

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Speaker 1: the guy that's directing Navalney, let's be grateful for his

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Speaker 1: roots and how he got to where he is. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to just shift for a second, because we

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Speaker 1: do have our other guest here, Christo Grosev. You sit

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Speaker 1: there and you see that navalney's going to come back

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Speaker 1: to Moscow, and you go, why why does he come

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Speaker 1: back to Moscow? Knowing he must have known what the

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Speaker 1: potential was. It seems to be being charged with embezzlement

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Speaker 1: all the time, and the charges dropped and he runs

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Speaker 1: for mayor and gets twenty seven percent of the vote,

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Speaker 1: which is significant but not anything earth shattering. But he's

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Speaker 1: got a political following. I want you to take me

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Speaker 1: through this line of right before he's poisoned. Where is he,

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Speaker 1: what he's doing. We're going to try you for embezzlement,

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Speaker 1: and then we suspend, we don't do this, we don't

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Speaker 1: do this, and then we poison you. Take me through

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Speaker 1: what's going on with Putin the Russians in the VoMi

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Speaker 1: before he's going to get poisoned.

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Speaker 2: Well, what we found out actually is that they tried

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Speaker 2: to poison him years earlier, so they started tailing him.

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Speaker 2: This whole unit of the Russian Security Service to the

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Speaker 2: FSB that comprises not only political police like the scary

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Speaker 2: muscle guys, but also chemical weapons specialists within the fs

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Speaker 2: B and doctors within the FSB. Saw a killed team,

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Speaker 2: a poisoned team. They started telling him the moment he

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Speaker 2: announced his bid for the presidency that was in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: and they tailed him on a total of six six

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Speaker 2: trips around the country throughout his whole campaign, So every

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Speaker 2: little village he visited, they were there. They stayed in

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Speaker 2: hotels near him. They usually arrived just a couple of

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Speaker 2: hours before he arrived or were left just after he left.

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Speaker 2: So they were there waiting for a sign off from

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Speaker 2: apparently put in for him to be whacked, to be killed.

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Speaker 2: But this didn't come for years, or maybe it did come.

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Speaker 2: What we don't know is maybe they tried. But Moscow

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Speaker 2: four is a phrase that comes out in this film,

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Speaker 2: and people who see it will know that it's a

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Speaker 2: sort of a cold word for Russia's incompetence at the

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Speaker 2: official level, So it could be that they tried earlier

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Speaker 2: to poison him but it didn't work out. So the

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Speaker 2: only thing we see is that in July, just a

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Speaker 2: month and a half before the actual coma poisoning, the

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Speaker 2: same team followed him and his wife to their getaway

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Speaker 2: to a Baltic coast in Russia, in the Clinograd Coneberg,

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Speaker 2: and apparently they tried to poison them there again because

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Speaker 2: we see his wife falling almost into a coma because

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Speaker 2: she experienced similar symptoms to what he did in months.

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Speaker 1: So the wrong people eating the cuss is that the

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Speaker 1: problem with the KGB or the FSP. Well, they're just

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Speaker 1: not great at poisoning.

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Speaker 2: They're they're not great, I mean they but they try again,

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Speaker 2: and they have what they lose in competence they make

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Speaker 2: up in resilience, so they do it years later. They

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Speaker 2: keep trying, They keep trying. They tried it twice on

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Speaker 2: another politician who lives here, actually, Vladimir Karamoza, same poisoning,

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Speaker 2: they poison here. They poisoned him there, he came back

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Speaker 2: here because his family lives here. He decided to go

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Speaker 2: back for a campaign trip. Six months later, poisoned him again.

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Speaker 2: So they tried. They tried many times, not just once.

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Speaker 2: So why that moment in time is the wrong question,

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Speaker 2: because maybe they tried for four years and that was

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Speaker 2: just the one time that they made enough sort of

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Speaker 2: dozage into get into his bloodstream by essentially smearing his underpants.

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Speaker 2: That's what happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I went in through him through his lower

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Speaker 1: body parts exactly. So he goes to Berlin. He finally

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Speaker 1: gets out of there and goes to Germany to get

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Speaker 1: treated and is cured. Navalney, as I see him on

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Speaker 1: screen in Daniel's film, is crisp and sharp and alert

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Speaker 1: and bright eyed and doesn't seem impaired in any way

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Speaker 1: as a figure in the film. And then he gets

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Speaker 1: cured and he comes back again. Yeah, Like, like who

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Speaker 1: around him is counseling him? Who is advising him that

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Speaker 1: you could stay here and be the leader of an opposition,

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Speaker 1: You could tour the world and be the darling of

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Speaker 1: the Western world. Very few people would command the same

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Speaker 1: resources that Navalni camanded in raising money. He could be.

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Speaker 1: It could be like the Clinton Foundation, his foundation and

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Speaker 1: raising money for his activities. He could be. He's very charismatic,

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Speaker 1: and he could carry on his great work. Instead, he

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Speaker 1: decides to go home and they put him in prison

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Speaker 1: for night. Why does he go home? Why?

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Speaker 2: Well, you're preaching to the choir. You're asking the same

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Speaker 2: questions that I asked him, and I asked that his wife.

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Speaker 2: He looked at me like, I'm an idiot. How can

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Speaker 2: you ask this question? If I stay here, I just

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Speaker 2: I've become one of the many talking heads that just

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Speaker 2: talk to Russians from outside of Russia, and Russians would

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Speaker 2: never trust me. Russians would never believe me in unless

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Speaker 2: I partake in the daily in their daily misery.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure the people offered him an effective and

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Speaker 1: compelling argument to the contrary. I mean, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of great work you could do. What are you going

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Speaker 1: to be able to accomplish from a jail for nine years?

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Speaker 1: And then they have you that they're going to kill

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Speaker 1: you there?

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Speaker 2: Probably exactly We got to that conversation and basically says,

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Speaker 2: you're right. If I were a journalist, If I were

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Speaker 2: a journalists, I would stay here and continue, probably doing

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Speaker 2: a better job from here than from there. But I

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Speaker 2: want to be a politician. I want to be president

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Speaker 2: one day, and I can only do it.

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Speaker 1: From there, from prison.

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Speaker 2: From well, I asked him, do you realize that you're

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Speaker 2: going to prison? He says yes. I asked him, do

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Speaker 2: you think it's going to be for a couple of months?

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Speaker 2: He said no. Christ they don't get it. It will be years.

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Speaker 2: So he was completely open eyed about it. And I

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Speaker 2: asked his wife, does she realize that this is going

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Speaker 2: to happen? She said absolutely. So it's a different type

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Speaker 2: to be, a harder complex could be, could be.

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Speaker 1: But what is your opinion? Why did he go back?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you share some of the same

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Speaker 1: opinions he does.

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Speaker 4: I think fundamentally, what Alexai was not comfortable with was

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Speaker 4: the idea and notion of instructing, of telling, encouraging the

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Speaker 4: Russian people to take to the streets, to go up

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Speaker 4: against the regime, to risk getting arrested. He was not

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Speaker 4: comfortable saying those things, commanding those things, encouraging those.

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Speaker 1: From a Parisian hotel, from a Parisian.

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Speaker 4: Hotel, from Ville, news from Berlin, from Vienna. If you

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Speaker 4: want to be the moral leader of a nation, which

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Speaker 4: is the role he currently occupies, you got to talk

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Speaker 4: is cheap. You have to be shoulder the shoulder, and

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Speaker 4: you have to be there. And I think that what

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Speaker 4: he is doing, his courage and bravery, hopefully will be

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Speaker 4: an inspiration to the Russian people, and I think that's

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Speaker 4: why he went back. But is it something that we

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Speaker 4: grapple with and struggle with to this day. Absolutely, was

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Speaker 4: it the right decision, I don't know, but that was

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Speaker 4: between Alexey Navolny and his higher power, and that's the

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Speaker 4: decision he made, and his family is lockstep with him.

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Speaker 4: But it's obviously something that we struggled with. And I

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Speaker 4: was like, I remember I was making the movie, and

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Speaker 4: I was hoping that we would get some sort of uncertainty,

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Speaker 4: some semblance of insecurity about the decision or the process.

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Speaker 4: The veneer of fear. The man's constitution was ironclad. He

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Speaker 4: never let on that he was afraid. He'd say, oh,

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Speaker 4: Daniel Jesus Christ, of course I have to go back.

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Speaker 4: What am I going to do sit in Germany? Forgive it?

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Speaker 1: But I would imagine I understand what you're saying. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I understand his commitment, but I wonder if it's going

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Speaker 1: to be easier to poison him. I mean, is he

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein In the United States, we live in a

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Speaker 1: place where people are fatigued by scandal, they are fatigued

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Speaker 1: by what I call the conspiranoiac mentality.

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Speaker 4: Well, I would not be comfortable equivocating to Valney with

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Speaker 4: Epstein for obvious reasons.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, But I'm saying in terms of he's a

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Speaker 1: sitting duck in a prison. Get the guy in prison.

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Speaker 1: If you want to whack and put him in prison,

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Speaker 1: you know where he is. You control his movements.

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Speaker 3: He is in the custody of the same man who

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Speaker 3: tried to murder him.

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Speaker 2: Christa, what do you think, Well, just remember that what

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Speaker 2: happened to the previous guys that have tried to murder him.

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Speaker 2: They're dead now or one of them is most likely, right,

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Speaker 2: the guy that the ones that failed, Yes, guy, the

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Speaker 2: ones that failed so that they kill you. Well, basically, they.

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Speaker 1: If you sit down with a bowl of poison, exactly fail.

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Speaker 2: So why would the new guy trying to g given

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Speaker 2: me that poison left?

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Speaker 4: You remember the scene, the Marquee scene in our film

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Speaker 4: when Alexey makes a few phone calls.

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Speaker 2: I guess an extraction of confession.

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Speaker 3: You remember that that part.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin the film for now. Of course,

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Speaker 1: there's drama in this film, unlike any other doc I've

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Speaker 1: seen in recent memory.

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Speaker 4: Well, so we know that some of the individuals who

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Speaker 4: were fooled.

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Speaker 2: Well, the whole point is there was a set of

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Speaker 2: that Fresbee officers who were given the task to kill Navalni.

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Speaker 2: They failed, but they lived in with the belief that

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Speaker 2: their government, their president, their Kruk president, will protect them

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Speaker 2: from publicity, from that publicity, from neighbors taking revenge on them.

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Speaker 2: That didn't work out. These guys that tried to kill

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Speaker 2: them are now negative celebrities. They all of Russia knows

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Speaker 2: their faces. Their neighbors spray painted their their elevator would like,

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Speaker 2: our neighbor is a killer because they.

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Speaker 1: Were fact totems of the because they were murderous emissaries

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Speaker 1: of this government, or because they're actual fans of Navami

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Speaker 1: or both.

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Speaker 2: No, because the neighbors actually didn't realize that the government

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Speaker 2: is a government of murderers, that their neighbors they didn't

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Speaker 2: realize that.

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Speaker 1: Oh, there are Russians who don't realize that Putin is

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Speaker 1: a murderers. Yes, yes, we're gonna We're gonna get that

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Speaker 1: in the second. And I do want to put a

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Speaker 1: button on what you said. You're very right, I did.

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Speaker 1: By no means that I mean to equivocate Epstein with

404
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Speaker 1: a Navalmi for obvious reasons. But I'm just saying that

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Speaker 1: that seems to be the key. You want to get

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Speaker 1: somebody in prison, because then you have complete control over

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Speaker 1: where they go, what they do. There's more opportunities to

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Speaker 1: kill them. So he wants to be a part of things.

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Speaker 1: He's willing to suffer. He's willing to take on the

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Speaker 1: horrible consequences to come back and one day hopefully get

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Speaker 1: out of prison. Do people of view Navali as a

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Speaker 1: viable political candidate if it wasn't in prison, if they

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Speaker 1: weren't trying to poison them all the time? Does he

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Speaker 1: have any chance to become the president of Russia?

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Speaker 2: I think he does. For years, the people who doubted

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Speaker 2: him were twofold. One of one part of Russia that

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Speaker 2: didn't like him were fed with propaganda that he's an embezzler,

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Speaker 2: so they just, oh, just a crew that just want

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Speaker 2: to get some of the government money. And another part

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Speaker 2: thought that he is a government proxy, that he's actually

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Speaker 2: a fake, full opposition figure, that he's very convenient for

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Speaker 2: put in because straw Man, because it's straw Man that

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Speaker 2: doesn't have a chance to get into the presidency, therefore

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Speaker 2: is an easy one. But after the poisoning, and especially

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Speaker 2: after the film and Honestly, any Russian who's seen the

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Speaker 2: film sees him as a viable presidential candidate. And that's

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Speaker 2: why I think this film has a big future for

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Speaker 2: changing minds and hearts in Russia. And that's why I

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Speaker 2: think and I know that Putin is so upset with

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Speaker 2: the film, not with the investigations so much, not with

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Speaker 2: Navande so much, but with the film because people who

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Speaker 2: see the film see him as a viable candidate.

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Speaker 1: What did they say Navali embezzled?

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Speaker 4: I think they said that he stole donations from his

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Speaker 4: from his found foundation. But what we have to understand

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Speaker 4: is they have a menu of stuff they just make up,

437
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 4: like the Russian judicial system saying what do.

438
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: They accuse him?

439
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 3: They accused him.

440
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: I think there was taking money from his not for

441
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 1: profit he stole.

442
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 4: Originally they've said that he stole lumber and some sort

443
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 4: of commodity and then he stole money from the nonprofit.

444
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 4: It's nonsense. He insulted a war veteran, that's a crime.

445
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: Just weird, wacky whatever they can come up with things.

446
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: And he was given suspended sentences for two of these

447
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 1: embezzlement charges. Why why didn't they dump them in the prison.

448
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 4: Then, well, the first time I think it was in

449
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen, during his run from mayor of Moscow. He

450
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 4: was sentenced to five years in prison. But the day

451
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 4: of his sentence, tens of thousands of people came out

452
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 4: to the streets in protest, and I think that rattled

453
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 4: the regime and they said we cannot we don't want

454
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 4: to deal with.

455
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 1: So if the response in public is full throated enough,

456
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,880
Speaker 1: if there's a lot of people out there making noise about,

457
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to assume that on a public relations level,

458
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 1: Navalney is a problem for Putin. Well he is.

459
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: But what changed with naval How Navalney made it The

460
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 2: big problem for Putney is Putin had to take much

461
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 2: more drastic measures after he returned from Germany than before.

462
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: He had to say the islands of free media completely.

463
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: He had to crush the people coming to the streets

464
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: with force, beat old women like drag young kids in

465
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: horts to detention centers, and that closed a gap, that

466
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 2: closed the valve. But it actually allows the pressure to

467
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: increase now because these people come go to the streets,

468
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 2: but they have it inside them that this anger. So

469
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: it's a problem for Putting. Daniel Rhor and Kristo Grotzev.

470
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: The subject of another Daniel Rohor documentary was Robbie Robertson.

471
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 2: Robertson was also a guest on Here's the Thing check

472
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 2: out our episode with the legendary musician.

473
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 5: We ended up recording the basement tapes. I don't know,

474
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 5: there's something like one hundred and forty songs or something

475
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 5: in the course of this. And what we would do

476
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 5: is every day we would go to Big Pink. We'd

477
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 5: have some coffee, play some checker. Bob would write. He

478
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 5: wrote on a typewriter, so he would type something up.

479
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,719
Speaker 5: We'd go down into the basement grab everybody would grab

480
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 5: whatever instrument was closed, might even not be the one

481
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 5: you play anything because.

482
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: There was no rules.

483
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 5: We'd sit down, we'd mess around, play through a tune

484
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 5: and we'd say, wow, that felt kind of good.

485
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: To hear. More of my conversation with Robbie Robertson go

486
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Daniel

487
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: Rhor and Crystal Grotzev tell the story of how they

488
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 1: convinced Alexei Navalny to allow his life to be filmed.

489
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to. Here's the thing.

490
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: The documentary film Navalny was shot prior to the Russian

491
00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine. And while there is no shortage of

492
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: of nations to be leveled against the Kremlin, I wanted

493
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 1: to know what they feel is the most significant criticism

494
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: of Vladimir Putin and his regime.

495
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: Well, it's corruption. It's really corruption. The one key word

496
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 2: that everybody in rush understance is driving away a value

497
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: from their daily life. They see the wealth of the

498
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: elite that has nothing to do with with what a

499
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: normal Western elite would have.

500
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: And that elite for people to understand in the timeline

501
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: that elite began to accrue on a more concentrated level

502
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: since when. But that's recent, isn't it in the last

503
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: twenty years. Well no, there's always been people who profited

504
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: from that, like in this country, from war, profitia, et cetera. Right,

505
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: But but it seems to me like there's an oligarchical

506
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: suffice here that's bigger than now.

507
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: Suffice it to say that the oligarchical layer are buddies,

508
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: school buddies and judo buddies, and like college buddies have

509
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: put in so they came through him. They're actually hold.

510
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: This has increased dramatically during Putin's reship.

511
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think.

512
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 1: Before that you didn't have as much of this.

513
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 2: Well, they had a couple of old and some of

514
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: them survives, but not like no. Yes, So that is

515
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: the one criticism that is exploited by somebody like Navalny

516
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: because it's easy to point out that it's visible.

517
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 4: And what Nevalde would say if you were here is

518
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 4: that every single issue in Russia, it's its foundation is

519
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 4: in corruption, and if we can tackle corruption, we can

520
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 4: start to heal the society. But alex there's one thing

521
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: I want to speak to Earlier, you asked Chris so

522
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 4: quite appointed question, and that's whether or not Alexey actually

523
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 4: has a reasonable chance of ever becoming president. And one

524
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 4: thing I asked him the same question. I was like, dude,

525
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 4: are you like delusional? Like how is this actually going

526
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 4: to happen? And what he spoke to was the Moscow

527
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 4: mayoral race of twenty thirteen, and why that is an

528
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 4: interesting case study is because he started that race with

529
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 4: two percent of the vote. People didn't like him. They

530
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 4: caricatured him as just a blogger and some wacky Internet guy,

531
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 4: and he finished with twenty seven percent of the vote.

532
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 4: It wasn't a fair election. There was malfeasans. He narrowly

533
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 4: avoided a runoff, and I think the Kremlin, who let

534
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 4: him run in that election was so nervous about his performance.

535
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 4: He ran an American style campaign. He was kissing babies,

536
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 4: knocking on doors in the subways, distributing literature, tens of

537
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 4: thousands of volunteers. There has never been a political organization

538
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 4: in Russia like that. They were afraid. I don't know

539
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 4: if the guy will be president, but what I hope,

540
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: at the very least is that he will have the

541
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 4: chance to compete in a democratic election. Whether the Russian

542
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 4: people elect him is up to their own agency, is

543
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 4: up to the Russian electorate. I just hope, I dream

544
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: for a future or he can run.

545
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: In this country, you have people who voted for a

546
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: candidate in twenty sixteen and again in twenty twenty. Who

547
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: does what a lot of conservatives do, which is they

548
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: give them a lot of predigested pablem about what the

549
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: conditions are in this country. You know, that's what Fox

550
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: News is. There's people that need their news predigested. Is

551
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: it the same in Putin's Russia. Is it like America?

552
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: Meaning does this Putin enjoy the support like Trump of

553
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: a massive number of poorly informed people.

554
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are the lazy informationally lazy people. They are

555
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 2: fine with is getting their news from late night State TV,

556
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: which is the equivalent of Fox here, which is premesticated,

557
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: pre pre chewed, and they don't have time, patience, or

558
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: interest in getting more. This would be about sixty percent

559
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: of the population. Another twenty percent would be the people

560
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: who always doubted everything and would consider both sides to

561
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: any debate to be bad guys because in Russia, that's

562
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,719
Speaker 2: how they grew up, being disappointed by the political elite

563
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: through centuries. And then twenty percent are the younger guys

564
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: who are actually interested in information actively. What changed with

565
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: the Navali poisoning and the protests after that is that

566
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: this twenty percent that was the disinterested twenty percent, they

567
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: actually became interested and they figured out finally that put

568
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 2: In is the bad guy here. But they were afraid

569
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: to go out to the streets. But that's still progress

570
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: because that doesn't make them uninformed, They just made them

571
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: makes them afraid.

572
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 4: But the one other thing I want to speak to

573
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 4: which is piggy backing awful what Chrystal just said. I

574
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 4: think it's true that a large majority of the country

575
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 4: is being spoon fed this state media, but I don't

576
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 4: think it is totally the agency of the people. It's

577
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 4: like there's literally a vacuum of information. It's impossible to

578
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 4: obtain if you're living in the middle of the country,

579
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 4: if you're not savvy but anything stats and so Absolutely,

580
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 4: it's a totally different dynamic. It's a different dichotomy, and

581
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: it just really needs to be understood that in Russia

582
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 4: you cannot access other points of view, other information unless

583
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 4: you're a super savvy person who knows how to use

584
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 4: VPNs and who knows how to get around censorship.

585
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: I disagree with you, because even before this censorship was introduced,

586
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: there were islands of free media there. You could get

587
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: to Twitter, you could get to Facebook. People are just

588
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: too lazy. The next sixty seven percent of people just

589
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: don't want to do that.

590
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: I want to note for our listeners, this is the

591
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: first moment where Daniel and Cristo are in disagreement. Let's

592
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: mark this in this This is what we always dream

593
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: of on these shows. Now, how did you first, I

594
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: mean you investigated the poisoning, and you did a lot

595
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: of work writing about it and exposing the poisoning, correct,

596
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, without giving away company secrets if you will,

597
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: and proprietary information. How do you go about that? How

598
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: does that begin? How did that begin? For you describe

599
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: in vague terms who you start calling.

600
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: It never starts with that investigation. It always starts with

601
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: the previous investigation that you've learned something that you keep

602
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: it at the back of your mind and it comes

603
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: handy later. So what happened in this case? We investigated

604
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: the poisoning of remember the Scripples, the former Russian double

605
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: spy who went to the UK and the Russian military

606
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: intelligence tried to poison them with novichjok in Salisbury in

607
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. So we had investigated this, we had cracked

608
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: this crime. We found out where the poisoners had taken

609
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: their physical poison, their Novi chok, and this turned out

610
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: to be a particular institution in Russia. And we're not

611
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 2: giving too much away, but it's a lab that we

612
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: discovered and presumed is giving poison to anybody who needs it,

613
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: like any government agency who wants to kill somebody gets

614
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: the poison from there. So we decided to trace those

615
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: guys from that institute, from that lab and see with

616
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: whom they talked in the days before Navali was poisoned.

617
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: And that's how we.

618
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: Found And how do you find that with it?

619
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: Well, that's the beauty of this crazy Russian corrupt system.

620
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: Because Russia is corrupt and dictatorial. The government wants to

621
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: have information on anybody at any given time, so they

622
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: gather all this.

623
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: Information on you, and that information is for sale.

624
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: That information is for sale because it's correct, because Putting

625
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: cannot survive if it doesn't allow his FSB underlinks to

626
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: actually make money on selling whatever.

627
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: Some of them are vulnerable, some of them are probable,

628
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: like you exactly.

629
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: They usually sell this to criminals. And suddenly here come

630
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: journalists who are taking a bit of the I've.

631
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: Got these voicemails from navalny. How much you want to

632
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: give me fifty? Come on, two hundred rubles? Come on,

633
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: you're joking.

634
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: But I had this literal conversation with one of the

635
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: data traders who likes getting this data from FSB officers

636
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: and selling it. And when he found out that we

637
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: are actually publishing investigations that he wrote to me this

638
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: angry email. He said, I thought, to you, just a criminal,

639
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: you're a journalist.

640
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: How dare you?

641
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: So?

642
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: He was so upset.

643
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's it's a crypt system and we exploited

644
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: the corruption to get the data.

645
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: You first met Navalny.

646
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 4: Where we first met Navalney in the Black Forest, a

647
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 4: small town called Saint Plasian on the German French Swiss sport.

648
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: And what was necessary describe for us? I mean, you're

649
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: a filmmaker and getting people to sit down with you

650
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: in front of a camera sometimes that's a pretty herculean

651
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: feet Well that's was it easy to get him in

652
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: the room or not?

653
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 4: That's the art of documentary filmmaking is getting in the room,

654
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 4: it's being in the right place right. Well, I think

655
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 4: we had the best shot of anyone in the world.

656
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 4: And the reason that was is we were writing on

657
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 4: the coattails of Christo. Christo came to me one day

658
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 4: and I was there with my producer, Odessa Array, one

659
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 4: of the producers of the film, and Christo and I

660
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 4: were working on another project that wasn't going well. Christo

661
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 4: walks in, he says, there's something else and I was like,

662
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 4: what's that Crystal. He says, you know that navalne guy.

663
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 4: I said yeah. He says, I think I have a

664
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 4: lead and who tried to poison him? And I go,

665
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: who's making that movie?

666
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: Christo?

667
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: He goes, I don't know? Should I ask?

668
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, you should fucking ask right now. And

669
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 4: because of the work Crystal had done on the screenpole Case,

670
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 4: he had cracked that very famous Russian poisoning story only

671
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 4: a few years earlier. Navollney was receptive and Ivonne understood

672
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 4: that this is the guy to be taken seriously. So

673
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: Crystal reached out. A week later, we were sneaking across

674
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 4: the German Austrian border, which is closed because of the COVID.

675
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 4: Where were you at the time we were in Vienna?

676
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: What were you doing there?

677
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 4: We were in Vienna in limbo, waiting to see if

678
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: we could go back to another recruited.

679
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: You into the the NSA when you were you left

680
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: scad after You're come on, who recruited you? Come on?

681
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: I am? I mean I just had you in Vienna.

682
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 4: You can't even joke about that. Because the Russians are

683
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 4: gonna take this interview. They're gonna take your voice saying

684
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 4: that to me. They're going to put it on state

685
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: media and they're gonna say, look, here's the evidence Alec

686
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: Baldwin knows that he.

687
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: Works for the same joking Vladimir. Yes, literally, it's too late.

688
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 4: They're gonna take this and they're no, watch it happen, crosp,

689
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 4: it's gonna happen. You're gonna be on Russian state propaganda

690
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 4: calling me a CIA asset, even.

691
00:32:59,480 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: Though you were.

692
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 4: This is how these Russians operate. They're like, oh, he

693
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 4: works for the state Department, he works for the stand.

694
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 4: They already said that, and so you joke. But it's

695
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 4: like I'm here being like wo woa, whoa, whoa. They're

696
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 4: going to use your voice calling me a say yeah.

697
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a joke, Vladimir, let's we'll get that

698
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: on the cake. You for specifying.

699
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: I was in Vienna with Christo and Odessa.

700
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 4: We were working on another project and in that former

701
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 4: Soviet state, it wasn't going well and I my wife

702
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 4: was spiraling, I was bugging out. I didn't know if

703
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 4: i'd go back to Canada, if I'd stick around for

704
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: a little bit longer. And then he walks in and

705
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 4: magnificently says what about navalne And a week later we

706
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 4: were sitting across from Alexa and his chief chief investigator.

707
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: I'm Maria Pevcik, and my job was to convince them

708
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 4: why we needed to make a documentary, why we had

709
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 4: to start right now. Chris, So what was your perspective

710
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 4: on that first meeting.

711
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: He wasn't buying it. He was like looking at this

712
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: kid much younger. He didn't believe it, but he allowed

713
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: to give him a chance. And the way we agreed

714
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: with him is let's start rolling. And then we decided

715
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: later because otherwise you missing every moment every day not

716
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: being recorded, and that's what sold the whole project of Navoni.

717
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: And then a week later they were like best of

718
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: friends and it was on Google.

719
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: Wasn't going on?

720
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 4: I would say best if I have to as a filmmaker,

721
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 4: I have to just maintain that. You know, Alexey is

722
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 4: an easy guy to hang out with. We bonded over

723
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 4: our wonkish love of politics and all of this, but

724
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 4: it's still important that I maintain a critical eye. This

725
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 4: is a guy who is controversial in his own way,

726
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 4: who's a complicated and compelling figure, and his complications make

727
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 4: him compelling. But he and I hit it off and

728
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 4: we enjoyed spending time together, and I think that's part

729
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 4: of the reason why we were able to mesh ourselves

730
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 4: in his cohort so naturally, so quickly.

731
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: Documentary filmmaker Daniel Rohor and Belling Cat journalist Krysto Grotzev.

732
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be

733
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app,

734
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back,

735
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: Daniel Rhor and Krystal growth sp recount the dramatic final

736
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: moments with Navalni and his family before his heroic return

737
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: to Russia. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

738
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: the Thing. I asked Daniel Rohr and Krystal Grotcev to

739
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: speculate on what is next for Putin amidst the rumors

740
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: of his ailing health.

741
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: The important thing is that people at the top belief

742
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: that he has cancer, and that makes him vulnerable, and

743
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: that makes them unlikely to follow any order that he

744
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: gives them that endangers their own longevity political longevity. So

745
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: this is why Putin is not the sort of all

746
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: powerful dictator that he was a year ago.

747
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: Vulnerable.

748
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: Everybody knows that he may have cancer. And this is

749
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: what matters.

750
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: What do the people inside Russia think? Who's his likely successor?

751
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: Is someone teed up Becau's what the Russians is often

752
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: a likely successor?

753
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: You know what has been the strongest sort of strategic

754
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: talking point of the Kremlin. There's no successor if not

755
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: put In them who this is a phrase said phrase,

756
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 2: There's a vacuum there, It's a vacuum. That's why people

757
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: have actually not looked for a success and have sort

758
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: of embraced his willingness to be the president or that's

759
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: are forever. I don't think the people, the regular people

760
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: in the near future will decide who the success or is.

761
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: It's going to be still the oligarchs and the elite

762
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: and the generals. And I wonder if at some point,

763
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: because of this war, this egregious war, Navale doesn't become

764
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 2: a more acceptable alternative to the oligarchs because at least

765
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: with him, they know that he's going to tax them

766
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: thirty percent of their wealth, but they're going to preserve

767
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 2: their lifestyle. And we put In. They've lost everything. They

768
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: are not invited to any party in London or in

769
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 2: New York anymore. They can't travel. And this will change

770
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: if Navaldi comes to part well, comes.

771
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: To power, I mean if Putin. I mean to take

772
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: me through this, because I'm yearning to hear your take

773
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: on this, which is that, if let's say theoretically Putin

774
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: dropped dead tomorrow, there's no chance in Navalni would become

775
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: the president. They're not going to hold an election, are they.

776
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: Well, it's going to be chaos and there will be

777
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 2: somebody who comes in as an interim power guy.

778
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: So what is Navalne's path to the presidency? Even post put.

779
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: What's going to happen is a fight, internal domestic fight,

780
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 2: strife among the different groups of the power elite. Putin

781
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: has made the only claim to fame that he has.

782
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: He has been able to manage these different interests within

783
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: the generals and within the FSB, and once he's gone,

784
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: it will be a fight everybody against everyone else. And

785
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: this is what has happened in every Western, normal country,

786
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 2: that is the normal path to actual democracy, which just

787
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: hasn't happened in Russia yet. So I think we're going

788
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: to see a couple of years of terrible dictatorship by

789
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: somebody else that will gradually go into a real election

790
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: at some point.

791
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: Why is poison the weapon of choice in these assassinations?

792
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: So the first answer is that if it works, it is,

793
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 2: and it's deniable, you don't discover it. Now in this case,

794
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 2: they discovered it, but it was not meant to be discovered,

795
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: So it's just a heart attack, right. And the second

796
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: answer is if it doesn't work, then it's so scary

797
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: that it actually discourages the cent and it's good. It's

798
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: the worst way to die. You hear the shrieks, the

799
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: yells of yeah that you don't.

800
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: Want to die like that, So we want them to suffer.

801
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 2: They want yeah, exactly.

802
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: So this is the chemical equivalent of dumb dumb bullets exactly.

803
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: But it's not new. It's not something that put An

804
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: invented it. He inherited it from the KGB. They love

805
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 2: this thing.

806
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: You may remember sometimes it's untraceable, meaning someone's dead, and

807
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 1: you say, oh, it's a heart.

808
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: Attack, right, exactly. There was this Bulgarian journalist who was

809
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 2: killed with a poisoned umbrella. Remember in the seventies, in London.

810
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 2: That's what the KGP did. They prepared this umbrella with

811
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: a little pellet that had something like novich Chok and

812
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 2: he died.

813
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: One of my favorite documentaries is Assassins. We were talking

814
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: about this before, where the two women believe are coached

815
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: because they think they're on a game show and they

816
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: killed Kim Jhalon's brother by rubbing the poison in his

817
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: eyes at the airport while they're presenting him with some

818
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 1: game show surprise. Anyway, that film Assassins was just absolutely numbing.

819
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: But you think, but obviously poison is better than spattering

820
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: somebody's head against the wall in a hotel. Well, if

821
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: you spattered even with a silencer.

822
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 4: But the reality is, if you spatter someone's head against

823
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 4: the wall in a hotel, then you have, as as

824
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 4: one of the characters in the film says, a body

825
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 4: with a hole in it, that you have to explain.

826
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 4: If Alexe died on that plane, as the Russian government intended,

827
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 4: an autopsy would have been carried out by the criminalistics Institute.

828
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: The same guys for poison him.

829
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 3: So it's really the perfect crime.

830
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: Are either of you, are you worried about your own

831
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: safety or were you ever worried about your own safety

832
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: during the production of this film.

833
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

834
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 4: When you're sitting next to a standing next to alexeing

835
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 4: of only who's the bravest man on the planet, and

836
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 4: his staff who are actually in danger, you know you

837
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 4: can't help but feel inspired by their courage and bravery.

838
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: I think the Russians.

839
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 4: Will continue to make efforts to discredit the film by

840
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 4: coming after me. That's why I take it so seriously

841
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 4: when we joke about this CIA recruitment stuff, because they

842
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 4: will literally take this and they will put it on

843
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 4: Channel one and they will say, oh, look, here's the evidence.

844
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 4: He's admitting it. He is from this agency or that agency,

845
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 4: which is nonsense. So I'm more concerned about character assassination,

846
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 4: you know, them finding someone I've never met who said

847
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: that makes horrible accusations about me, something like that.

848
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: That's my concern. What do you think, Christo, No, I

849
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 3: totally agree with you.

850
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: They will just go after your character. They'll probably send

851
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: some nice girls to sleep with you.

852
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: What are you going to work on next? You're going

853
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: to do in a documentary about Abba somebody?

854
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 4: I want to do something that is completely tonally different.

855
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 4: I have a few things in development that I'm apprehensive.

856
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 4: I don't want to jink, so I'm apprehensive to talk about.

857
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: But most documentarians I know have a bunch of pots

858
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: on the stone.

859
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to, you have to.

860
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 4: But this one was so all consuming and it's this

861
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 4: is a daunting one to follow up, as I'm sure

862
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: you can imagine. But I want to make something very soon,

863
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: and I want it to be totally, totally different. But

864
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 4: I love making documentaries, so I hope I get to

865
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 4: make another one now.

866
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: Navalney, what was the last time you were in his presence?

867
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: When did you last see.

868
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: I can tell you exactly.

869
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 4: It was January seventeenth in Berlin, Germany, at about one

870
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 4: thirty in the afternoon of this year of twenty twenty one,

871
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 4: twelve last year he got in. I filmed, I was shooting.

872
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 4: He went to prison when filming on January seventeenth was

873
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 4: the first day he was incarcerat of last year of

874
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, and I filmed him saying that you

875
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 4: see it in the film. He says goodbye to his colleagues,

876
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 4: and then we walked downstairs to the car park where

877
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 4: there are are cars, protective vehicles waiting for him. He

878
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 4: gets in the car, and I didn't. I was working.

879
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 4: I was shooting, so it's not like I could go

880
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 4: say thank you for so nice to meet you, goodbye.

881
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 4: He understood a line and you have to keep it

882
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: absolutely and he understood that, and I understood that. And

883
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 4: as he was driving off, I gave him a nod

884
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 4: and he gave me a nod back, and.

885
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: He was off and you never spoke to him again. No, nothing, nothing. Well,

886
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: you've done this amazing job, because you have. Certainly, I'm

887
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: not saying this to be kind, and I know I'm

888
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: in a long line of people that are saying to you,

889
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: what a remarkable and what a talented filmmaker you are.

890
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: You's done a remarkable job with this film showing the

891
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: world who Navalny is, at least who we want to

892
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: believe he is. I'm disappointed that he chose to go

893
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: to prison, and although I understand the victor in Casablanca

894
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: kind of code, but your film is going to be

895
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: for many people in this country their introduction and their

896
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: first chance and an up close look at Navalney.

897
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 4: And that's something that we take very seriously and it's

898
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 4: very important to all of us. As many people in

899
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 4: the world see this film as possible. The reality is

900
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 4: Alec that Alexey is in peril. He is in a

901
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 4: very bad spot right now. And the way that you

902
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 4: keep him alive is by keeping his name in the

903
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 4: global consciousness.

904
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: So is he allowed to have visitors in prison.

905
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 4: He can see his wife and his daughter once every

906
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 4: three months for an hour. This film is going to

907
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: be widely available and everyone in the world needs to

908
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 4: see it, and they need to tell their friends to

909
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 4: see it. Alexei's life depends on it.

910
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: Thank you both, Thank you director Daniel Rohrer and journalist

911
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: Kristo Grotzev. Navalny is currently in theaters around the world

912
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: and will premiere on CNNTV in North America on April

913
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: twenty fourth. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice,

914
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperio. I'm Alec Baldwin.

915
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.