Speaker 1: Cool media.
Speaker 2: This is it could happen here, a show about things
Speaker 2: falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis. Today we're talking about movies,
Speaker 2: one of my favorite topics that I never get to
Speaker 2: talk about on the show, but I'm able to talk
Speaker 2: about it this week because I've found a way to
Speaker 2: talk about how movies are covering the death of Woke
Speaker 2: and to help me in this doomed endeavor, I have
Speaker 2: recruited artists and designer Bailey new poster.
Speaker 3: Welcome Hi, It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 2: Bailey also is behind the new top Cup City show
Speaker 2: art which will eventually go public maybe in a few
Speaker 2: weeks whenever I finally finished that episode, so keep pounding
Speaker 2: me about it. So we're going to talk about two
Speaker 2: films that came out this past July, Superman and Eddington,
Speaker 2: which I think are actually very closely related despite being
Speaker 2: very different from each other. I believe they're kind of
Speaker 2: equal and opposite films. And I realized this after I
Speaker 2: saw Eddington at a theater in Brooklyn and walked outside
Speaker 2: to the posters for Superman and Editing being right next
Speaker 2: to each other, which are very different, and then I
Speaker 2: realized this is actually kind of the same movie, but
Speaker 2: doing like or they're they're very related films right now.
Speaker 2: I think they really are like the equal and opposite
Speaker 2: of each other. Both are like uber contemporary, they're very online.
Speaker 2: They have a sort of like gestural politics, and I
Speaker 2: think they're both reactions to a conflicting view of American decline.
Speaker 2: Both have surprised Tucker Carlson appearances, and both have failed cancelations.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of overlap in some of the plot
Speaker 2: points of this film, and I think what they're actually
Speaker 2: kind of saying about current American culture, current current American politics,
Speaker 2: and how it relates to social media. I think we
Speaker 2: should first talk about Superman to get over that, so
Speaker 2: we can I discuss Eddington because I need to discuss
Speaker 2: Eddington in relation to Superman in some ways. So I
Speaker 2: guess people have been enjoying this film. I think a
Speaker 2: big part of why is how the film tackles geopolitics.
Speaker 2: Oddly enough, the geopolitical conflict in the film was most
Speaker 2: likely based on what it was written trying to pull from,
Speaker 2: like Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But because the film took
Speaker 2: a long time to write, by the time they shot
Speaker 2: the film, there was a whole other geopolitical conflict happening,
Speaker 2: which influenced at the very least the visual language of
Speaker 2: the film, which which pulls from Israel and Palestine.
Speaker 4: It's nice to see it, like represented, I guess on
Speaker 4: a blockbuster film, like that's what it feels like.
Speaker 1: It felt like nice to see it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like an acknowledgment of the atrocities happening. Yes,
Speaker 2: like essentially a Benjamin Nett and Yahoo stand in is
Speaker 2: basically like the secondary villain of the film. And at
Speaker 2: this point, I guess we'll just have to talk about
Speaker 2: hashtag spoilers. If you haven't seen these and you want to,
Speaker 2: you can. You can go see them if you're okay
Speaker 2: with hearing us talk about it, and that might make
Speaker 2: you want to see them more.
Speaker 5: Then feel free. I don't think spoilers actually ruin a movie.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like net and Yahu dying in the film
Speaker 2: gets like a massive, a massive crowd reaction at least
Speaker 2: when I saw it opening night, and and people definitely
Speaker 2: feel a degree of like catharsists like watching you know,
Speaker 2: superheroes stop the IDF from massacring you know, civilians who
Speaker 2: are you were like you know, like like Arab civilians
Speaker 2: like it's it's it's at that point they transcend, like
Speaker 2: the Russia Ukraine aspect, and it's like very very clear
Speaker 2: what they're visually pulling from.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the falafel card guy is the one, like, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Lets Luthor executes a falafel card owner. And I'll talk
Speaker 2: about more about how the film like riffs on Palestine
Speaker 2: in a bed. There's there's other aspects I think of
Speaker 2: how Superman is reacting to what James Gunn sees as
Speaker 2: like American decline, because I think Superman as a film
Speaker 2: is kind of a partially vapid take on like the
Speaker 2: corruption of sincere positive futures and like the loss of hope.
Speaker 2: It honestly feels very like Biden twenty twenty. It's like
Speaker 2: a battle for the soul of America type thing. And
Speaker 2: I also see this as like a reaction to the
Speaker 2: victory of toxic masculinity, especially among like the twitch streamer
Speaker 2: class and like manfluencers like Andrew Tait, and instead you
Speaker 2: have Superman as this like goody two shoes boy Scout
Speaker 2: the way he like he should be. And this is
Speaker 2: the aspect of the film I think works. The best is,
Speaker 2: honestly is their characterization of Superman. The cast is phenomenal.
Speaker 2: David Cornsweat does a really good job, and I do
Speaker 2: like this version of masculinity. It's it's still funny to
Speaker 2: see like post online of people being like, Wow, I'm
Speaker 2: actually gonna try, you know, being nice to my neighbors
Speaker 2: now that I saw Superman, Like what the fuck.
Speaker 4: To pick up my girlfriend today and be happy when
Speaker 4: I'm around her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that feels a little odd, but like, I
Speaker 2: guess it's good that people can feel like Superman when
Speaker 2: they're doing good things, helping an old lady cross the
Speaker 2: street or whatever. I think that aspect of like decline,
Speaker 2: I sympathize with this like loss of like positive masculinity,
Speaker 2: and I think a Superman can be a simpol for
Speaker 2: that for new people who are addicted to watching like
Speaker 2: sneak O or whatever.
Speaker 5: I think that's probably good.
Speaker 2: And in some ways I think this film, honestly, like
Speaker 2: the exact same film would have been received a lot
Speaker 2: worse if Kamala Harris was president. I think that the
Speaker 2: fact that everyone feels so hopeless, like depress, hopeless and
Speaker 2: defeated because of Trump. I think this actually contributes to
Speaker 2: the positive reception the film is taking. And myself and
Speaker 2: a few other people kind of even predicted this, like
Speaker 2: back in November, trying to like forecast like the reception
Speaker 2: of Superman and like Fantastic Four and like all these
Speaker 2: companies who are trying to like save the superhero genre
Speaker 2: from like eating itself right now. But for me, at least,
Speaker 2: there is a more insidious aspect of Superman that I
Speaker 2: do not see being discussed as much beyond you know,
Speaker 2: James Gunn still still obviously upset that he got canceled
Speaker 2: and is thinking that a core plot points in this
Speaker 2: film is he's actually super bad and he shouldn't have
Speaker 2: been canceled.
Speaker 4: He shouldn't be canceled, and the people canceling him were
Speaker 4: monkeys at Typewriters.
Speaker 3: And which way, honestly that that part is true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people try to cancel James gun were monkeys, and
Speaker 2: on one typewriters.
Speaker 1: I thought that bit was great.
Speaker 4: I thought that bit was very I was like, that's
Speaker 4: very like one panel gag in a comic, which is
Speaker 4: you know, wonderful, very The movie felt very great.
Speaker 5: Morrison, totally, those are the aspects that I really liked.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally staying on the on the political subject, I
Speaker 4: think you can draw a very good analogy between this
Speaker 4: and or Not. Just this feels like this year's Barbie,
Speaker 4: if that makes sense. Sure, like the kind of like
Speaker 4: corporate political not girls get it done this time. Obviously,
Speaker 4: this is like more of like anti not even anti
Speaker 4: toxic masculinity. I think it's just pro this form of masculinity,
Speaker 4: which I think is more productive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I also.
Speaker 4: Think, yeah, there's like neolib stuff going on, and also
Speaker 4: the fact that the movie, because it's a blockbuster, can't
Speaker 4: properly handle anything like it kind of has to just
Speaker 4: leave everything at the road, yeah, on the side of
Speaker 4: the road by the end of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: This is very much similar to Barbie, in which I
Speaker 2: kind of had the same reaction to.
Speaker 5: It's like they're like o K movies.
Speaker 2: But I find the political posturing actually slightly insulting in
Speaker 2: a certain way based on how shallow it is. And
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to actually get into that more
Speaker 2: on Superman here. I've seen people talking about how like
Speaker 2: emotional they got during the scenes, like very evocative of
Speaker 2: the Palactini and genocide like people like, you know, crying
Speaker 2: and tearing up and feeling so seen and again. On
Speaker 2: one hand, that's good, but that also gives me a
Speaker 2: bit of an icky feeling. And someone else expressed this
Speaker 2: very well, the co host of the Hit Factory podcast
Speaker 2: at Deep Impact Crier on tweeter. She's the host of
Speaker 2: the podcast Hit Factory. Wach was about nineties to cinema.
Speaker 2: I think her name is Carly, and she expressed this
Speaker 2: kind of soft disgust that was growing in me, but
Speaker 2: both kind of during some of these scenes and frankly
Speaker 2: watching people's reaction to it. She said, quote, that's the point,
Speaker 2: isn't it To immerse you in a fantasy where civilian
Speaker 2: life matters, to distract you from the reality where civilian
Speaker 2: life does not matter, To offer you abstractions of already
Speaker 2: abstracted images of imperial violence so that you could experience Catharsis,
Speaker 2: escape and absolution. A movie like Superman exists to take
Speaker 2: the literal spectacle of genocide filling our feed for two years,
Speaker 2: and further mediate, slash, abstract the spectacle so it can
Speaker 2: be transposed onto another product of empire and strategic interpassivity
Speaker 2: to keep us ideologically and emotionally confined to its order.
Speaker 2: Any empathetic impulse engendered by forms and aesthetics of imperial
Speaker 2: violence and memetic rhythms of technology it trades in confines
Speaker 2: us to the limits of the language of empire. It
Speaker 2: keeps us operating on its terms. We need cinema that
Speaker 2: ruptures familiar imperial forms and its rhythms unquote. So movies
Speaker 2: like Superman and the way that they depict atrocities actually
Speaker 2: like make us more indebted to the imperial system because
Speaker 2: the imperial system can give us a product to make
Speaker 2: us feel Catharsis about the violence that the empire actually does,
Speaker 2: and that Catharsis keeps us going, like that's what allows
Speaker 2: us to not like fucking destroy everything around us, because
Speaker 2: we get enough of that Catharsis that it makes us
Speaker 2: able to keep living. And that's in the end, what
Speaker 2: products like Superman are kind of doing. They're making us
Speaker 2: feel just good enough by expressing the displeasure we have
Speaker 2: at what our government is doing, but still making us
Speaker 2: like fully made married to the existence of that empire,
Speaker 2: Like we can't live without it because of the comfort
Speaker 2: it provides us. Including this cathartic comfort watching fucking Guy
Speaker 2: Gardner stop the Palestinian genocide, which if you told me
Speaker 2: that sentence like five years ago, I would have not
Speaker 2: believed you. I would have not believed that a cinematic
Speaker 2: depiction of Guy Gardner is going to stop the Palestinian genocide,
Speaker 2: that that Hawk girl is gonna is gonna kill Netanyahu.
Speaker 2: I would I would have not believed you for a
Speaker 2: single second. And that kind of shows the level of
Speaker 2: absurdity that we're kind of dealing with, and that aspect,
Speaker 2: I think is what makes what Superman is doing actually
Speaker 2: far more insidious than any of the controversial politics in
Speaker 2: something like Eddington.
Speaker 4: I also think that the whole like indebted to empire thing.
Speaker 4: I think this is like the case in point example
Speaker 4: of that considering Superman is literally a symbol of American values.
Speaker 2: Or certainly has like become that, and like yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: had a more positive version of that in some ways
Speaker 2: during his like birth in World War Two as a
Speaker 2: way as like a symbol of like Nazi resistance, but
Speaker 2: instead now is you know, it very much turned into
Speaker 2: like truth justice in the American way, to the point
Speaker 2: where a lot of his you know, like immigrant aspects
Speaker 2: have been have been kind of undercut in the in
Speaker 2: the past, in the past few years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw an article I didn't actually end up
Speaker 4: fully reading because it was on the I forgot what
Speaker 4: it was then the Washington Post or maybe it was
Speaker 4: the New York Times where it was it was.
Speaker 5: Like blocked or something, one of the big two.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was an author who I think was an immigrant,
Speaker 4: and it was like talking about how Superman undercuts the
Speaker 4: the immigrant experience and that he is like literally born
Speaker 4: on the planet anyway, so it's not really like an
Speaker 4: it's not necessarily he doesn't go through any like cultural conflict.
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, totally.
Speaker 4: I also wondered about, well, you know, I get I
Speaker 4: guess it doesn't.
Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't.
Speaker 4: I was gonna I was gonna think about the taking
Speaker 4: the immigrant aspect and then talking about one of the
Speaker 4: main parts of the movie, which was his parents are
Speaker 4: like you need to go and make a harem on
Speaker 4: Earth or whatever, is sort of interesting.
Speaker 2: Yes, the aspect that his immigrant background has been very
Speaker 2: corrupted in this film, like there's like a certainly like
Speaker 2: foreign evilness associating with Superman.
Speaker 4: Now, Yeah, you're an immigrant, and like that's good and
Speaker 4: that's great and very American, but you shouldn't be what
Speaker 4: your parents were, your like foreign parents because they wanted
Speaker 4: a harem of lovers and to like conquer the West
Speaker 4: or whatever. Yeah, which, you know, considering the fact that
Speaker 4: this was written during the Russia Ukraine thing and not
Speaker 4: mainly during the Israel Palestine thing, I don't know if
Speaker 4: that's like, but because that's in the movie, I have
Speaker 4: to think about it, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think James Gunn was conceptualizing of that
Speaker 2: when he wrote it.
Speaker 4: I think it's an unfortunate product of what happened aesthetically,
Speaker 4: but it's not that big of a deal, but it
Speaker 4: is weird, Like it's something to think about.
Speaker 2: That aspect did not bother me as much as it
Speaker 2: did for some other people. For my overall thoughts in
Speaker 2: the film, I think it's basically as good as every
Speaker 2: other James gun film, which frankly just is not my
Speaker 2: cup of tea. I've never really loved the Guardians films.
Speaker 2: I don't think James Gun's a very compelling filmmaker. I
Speaker 2: thought it was just fine. It definitely felt like episode
Speaker 2: thirteen of a TV show that doesn't exist, which as
Speaker 2: a comic book appreciator I like. As a film appreciator
Speaker 2: I don't like, But certainly the more campy aspects I
Speaker 2: enjoyed a lot. I think now is time to go
Speaker 2: on a quick break, and then we will return to
Speaker 2: discuss the anti woke cinematic masterpiece of the twenty twenties Eddington.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back, So I would like to now
Speaker 2: talk about Eddington for the rest of the episode essentially,
Speaker 2: But like I said before, Eddington is the equal and
Speaker 2: opposite of Superman. Both are both are very contemporary, very online.
Speaker 2: Both their politics gesture and I think they're they're reactionary,
Speaker 2: but they're specifically reactionary in very different ways. I think
Speaker 2: they're they're reacting to two very different types of decline
Speaker 2: in America, or like perceived decline in America. So Eddington
Speaker 2: is directed by Ariastor, who made Hereditary, Midsummer and Both Afraid.
Speaker 2: I'll talk more about my thoughts on ari Astor at
Speaker 2: the end in a conversation with Jennie Danger. But I
Speaker 2: think Eddington is not anti woke. Actually I was lying.
Speaker 2: I think anything is a post woke expression of kind
Speaker 2: of scared nihilism, or like like a depiction of the
Speaker 2: nihilism inherent to American politics right now, like every everything
Speaker 2: is a conspiracy theory, there's this specter of cancelation around
Speaker 2: the corner, and like speaking specters, I think so so
Speaker 2: much of both Superman and Eddington for me is like
Speaker 2: there's this specter of wokeism that's haunting America, and both
Speaker 2: films are trying to deal with that specter. I think
Speaker 2: Superman partially mourns that wokeness, and Eddington deals with its
Speaker 2: more like actual and like haunting and like in like
Speaker 2: a ghostly quality, some of its more like uncanny qualities.
Speaker 5: Sometimes more than.
Speaker 2: Anything, Eddington digs into how we have created a profoundly
Speaker 2: anti social culture, which even leftists contribute to and in
Speaker 2: some cases actually conceptualize that as a form of like
Speaker 2: based process, and how we've all become just reflections of
Speaker 2: our Internet feeds and used politics as a justification for
Speaker 2: personal cruelty, or the very least, use politics as an
Speaker 2: outlet to channel anti social behavior in a way that
Speaker 2: you can self perceive as being morally good. And I
Speaker 2: think both the left and the right do this obviously,
Speaker 2: Like the right does this with their like pedophile crusader shit,
Speaker 2: never mind the whole Epstein thing, just just ignore that,
Speaker 2: ignore all of the actual right wing pedophiles.
Speaker 1: But well, it's entirely about aesthetics.
Speaker 4: It's about absolutely Yeah, who looks like a pedophile to me?
Speaker 1: And it's the gay person.
Speaker 2: Ascetisized politics, right, it's because huge on I think political
Speaker 2: extremism in general politics start developing more aestheticized forms. You know,
Speaker 2: this is true among anarchists, and I think fascism more
Speaker 2: more purely, I think is actually like politics ascetisize to
Speaker 2: the point we are aesthetisizing, you know, like like people
Speaker 2: and like culture and like race. Right, Like that is
Speaker 2: a whole a way different version than you know, like
Speaker 2: crust punks or like yeah, like like you know, black Bloc.
Speaker 4: Did you see the uh? I don't remember what the
Speaker 4: account was. It was like something of defense tweeted like
Speaker 4: some AI like from one of those like mill military
Speaker 4: fiction like accounts or something, And it was like a
Speaker 4: picture of like a white dude holding like a fucked
Speaker 4: up looking m for because it was AI generated and
Speaker 4: he's got like a bald eagle.
Speaker 3: On his head.
Speaker 5: No, but that sounds great.
Speaker 1: It got tweeted today.
Speaker 4: It's like the fucking lamest thing I've ever seen, and
Speaker 4: like I just don't even know, like not only the
Speaker 4: fact that he's like obviously he's using a photo of
Speaker 4: somebody else, but it's not even a real picture of anybody.
Speaker 1: It's like a fake image of somebody that somebody.
Speaker 4: Else made, like that he got off of like one
Speaker 4: of those like gun larp aesthetic accounts.
Speaker 1: I just found that very interesting.
Speaker 5: I don't know, Bailey, what did you think of Eddington?
Speaker 1: I adored it. I loved it.
Speaker 4: The moment that I knew that I was going to
Speaker 4: enjoy it was probably where it's revealed the energy plant
Speaker 4: is called perfect Gold Magic carp or whatever, which is
Speaker 4: like so funny, like all those AI guys making all
Speaker 4: their products, like they're calling it Sourn's eye or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so good.
Speaker 4: But I adored it. I think that Joaquin Phoenix is
Speaker 4: wonderful in it. He's a great actor. I think Ari
Speaker 4: Astor is like one of the few directors that can
Speaker 4: perfectly slot him into this like just neurotic impotent man role,
Speaker 4: you know, very impotent you have, Yes, So the scene
Speaker 4: that I really like that I think about probably the most,
Speaker 4: or the character I think of probably the most is
Speaker 4: the homeless guy. Yeah, the homeless guy who wanders into
Speaker 4: the film and is the you know, he's a stranger,
Speaker 4: walks into a strange town like opening of the film,
Speaker 4: and then all of the scenes where he's like he
Speaker 4: kind of bothers everybody, like he's you know, like in
Speaker 4: Gavin Newsom's like anti homeless policies. You know, it's a
Speaker 4: it's a very bipartisan we have a bipartisan anti.
Speaker 1: Homeless thing going on, obviously.
Speaker 4: And he is also like even when his character like
Speaker 4: snaps and kills somebody, he like kills the homeless guy first,
Speaker 4: which I found very interesting.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think this is really crucial that when the
Speaker 2: sheriff starts his murder rampage, the first expression of violence
Speaker 2: that he feels personally justified in doing or feels CATHARSI
Speaker 2: isn't doing, isn't isn't like the fake woke mayor, it's
Speaker 2: not Antifa. It's the homeless guy that is the first
Speaker 2: target of acceptable violence in the mind of the sheriff.
Speaker 2: And I think that is a very accurate look at
Speaker 2: American politics, and that's not something I've seen discussed very
Speaker 2: much in relation to the film.
Speaker 4: No, and I in a way, he's still impotent after that,
Speaker 4: He's like he's he's not even enacting. I wouldn't even
Speaker 4: label that as political violence. I just label that as violence, right.
Speaker 4: Like earlier in the movie, all the like teen woke
Speaker 4: protesters are like sitting out in the street, and the
Speaker 4: homeless guy's kind of just standing and like he's.
Speaker 1: Like, hey, man, I don't have any money. Like he's
Speaker 1: not even asking for anything. He's just kind of standing
Speaker 1: there and making them all uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: You know, he is the specter of the other wandering
Speaker 4: into this town and then everybody has to like and
Speaker 4: he's like the you know, the beginning of conflict.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're they're like the easiest group to other is
Speaker 4: the homeless and the mentally unwell.
Speaker 2: No, I think that that part of the film works
Speaker 2: really well. And I guess this film is received a
Speaker 2: mixed reaction, which I talk a little bit about with
Speaker 2: with jan which you'll you'll hear in a sec. And
Speaker 2: I guess I'll start by talking about how I believe
Speaker 2: Eddington works as a as a piece of post woke
Speaker 2: cinema and I was talking about this with someone and
Speaker 2: they asked me what post woke was, and I was
Speaker 2: a little confused, because that's a term that I feel
Speaker 2: like I understand really well, but then I failed to
Speaker 2: accurately describe it to them. And I think it relates
Speaker 2: to this whole cultural moment that we're in now, especially
Speaker 2: after the twenty twenty four election, where we're facing this
Speaker 2: larger cultural backlash against you know, woke TM and how
Speaker 2: that highlights like the limits of diversity representation and complicated
Speaker 2: language to explain topics that might actually be you know, reasonable,
Speaker 2: but by expressing them you sound very unreasonable. And I
Speaker 2: think what post woke is and the reason why Eddington
Speaker 2: is post woke and is not anti woke like like
Speaker 2: Eddington's centrist movie. I think it actually is fairly political,
Speaker 2: but it's post woke in such that it is a
Speaker 2: continuation of radical politics, which incorporates critiques of the woke era,
Speaker 2: what critics would describe as an overreach or excessive focus
Speaker 2: on language or singular identity, trading inaccessible education in favor
Speaker 2: of in group signaling to prove personal political purity. I
Speaker 2: think post woke hues a shallow performative politics adopted to
Speaker 2: provide social capital, and instead may deliberately flaunt humor, camp,
Speaker 2: or irreverence in ways that may have been labeled problematic
Speaker 2: or taboo during the peak of twenty tens online activism,
Speaker 2: but often in a way that signals both accurate awareness
Speaker 2: of social issues as well as an exhaustion with or
Speaker 2: a playful rebellion against socially alienating language and ideas. And
Speaker 2: this can include using irony, parity, and camp to engage
Speaker 2: with social issues without the existential gravity or earnestness of
Speaker 2: prior education focus eras, there may now be jokes, themes,
Speaker 2: or performances that skirt or playfully violate previous norms of
Speaker 2: cultural sensitivity, but not out of ignorance, but as a
Speaker 2: conscious reversal or escalation, while actually emphasizing material support over
Speaker 2: linguistic gestures and systematic pressure over individual personal action.
Speaker 5: So that's what I mean by post woke.
Speaker 2: I had to workshop this definition with a friend earlier
Speaker 2: this morning, but I think that works for both. Like
Speaker 2: what Eddington is doing, I think that works for what
Speaker 2: events like Twins Versus Dolls is doing. How it's it's
Speaker 2: it's it's not anti woke, but and it's not purely
Speaker 2: reactionary against woke it is it is actually a continuation
Speaker 2: and an escalation while adapting to fit the current political
Speaker 2: climate and still like reflecting on some of the shortcomings
Speaker 2: of the quote unquote woke era, which we see throughout
Speaker 2: Eddington a lot in the form of like, you know,
Speaker 2: performative politics, especially that like one like zoomer guy character,
Speaker 2: oh ye who you know, goes on that whole rant
Speaker 2: about like abolishing whiteness to his parents based on like
Speaker 2: googling these concepts like thirty minutes ago, and now feels
Speaker 2: like he has like an academic level understanding of whiteness
Speaker 2: as a concept.
Speaker 4: The intro to him, I guess it's the second it's
Speaker 4: the second time you see him.
Speaker 1: But he's at the he's.
Speaker 4: At the party or whatever, and like he gives kind
Speaker 4: of an opinion to this.
Speaker 1: Girl that he has a crush on.
Speaker 4: They're talking about like you know, whiteness and like privilege
Speaker 4: and stuff like that, and he class yeah, and class
Speaker 4: is the really like because clearly he I think I
Speaker 4: think he's supposed to kind of be like a lower
Speaker 4: class like character that then yeah, jumps up the ranks
Speaker 4: through political opportunism. Right, yeah, yeah, he brings up class
Speaker 4: and is immediately shut down.
Speaker 2: And googles Angela Davis seconds before, but only but only
Speaker 2: so that he can flirt with a girl more effectively,
Speaker 2: which is very funny, incredible, It's so good. Other small
Speaker 2: bits like that. I really enjoy that. The like fake
Speaker 2: woke Mayor who's actually just like a tech company shill
Speaker 2: has he him pronouns on his Zoom profile, very very
Speaker 2: funny to me.
Speaker 1: There are so many little things in this movie.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of little stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like very obviously this is a film that
Speaker 2: Ariasta wrote well like way too online during twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: like he was in specifically Twitter, right, this is an
Speaker 2: extremely Twitter movie, which is both works for the movie
Speaker 2: and sometimes works against the movie.
Speaker 5: I have no idea how this film is going to age.
Speaker 2: Maybe it'll age very well because we'll use it as
Speaker 2: like a cultural artifact to like look back on and
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, that's kind of what twenty twenty felt like.
Speaker 4: In a couple of years, we're all going to be
Speaker 4: looking back on it and saying, how dare they made
Speaker 4: fun of our new currency crypto, our new bitcoins.
Speaker 1: Everybody has bitcoins.
Speaker 3: All of the bitcoin stuff is really good, like I do.
Speaker 4: Also, I like that they gave the I don't remember
Speaker 4: his name, the black police officer, who's like kind of
Speaker 4: another like main through line.
Speaker 1: For the movie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but he his only other thing is that he's
Speaker 4: really into crypto.
Speaker 3: He's so funny, so good.
Speaker 2: If anything, I think Eddington is really good at showcasing
Speaker 2: types of guy. There's so many like type of guys
Speaker 2: in this film, and I think that's that's one of
Speaker 2: the real highlights. And at least for me, Like I'm
Speaker 2: obviously been very politically aware and engaged since you know,
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen or so, especially starting in twenty twenty, So
Speaker 2: like knowing this film is set in twenty twenty and
Speaker 2: knowing it kind of gets into what that year was.
Speaker 5: Like, I actually was able.
Speaker 2: To go into the film pretty pretty blind, and I
Speaker 2: was able to start calling shots really fast as soon
Speaker 2: as as soon as I realized like what Ari was doing.
Speaker 2: So like, the film starts off as this like political
Speaker 2: satire on like the absurdity of COVID lockdown America, and
Speaker 2: then we get into this like crime thriller genre. Then
Speaker 2: it concludes with this action genre, but at the very
Speaker 2: start of the film, when it's just like this kind
Speaker 2: of kind of quaint like like like parody of Lockdown America,
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, so at like forty five minute mark,
Speaker 2: we're gonna get George Floyd. Right at at one hour
Speaker 2: in there's gonna be riots our you know, hour fifteen,
Speaker 2: there's gonna be some like ANTIFA type situation. And I
Speaker 2: called so many things. They just started happening like exactly
Speaker 2: what I thought they were going to. So I was
Speaker 2: not really surprised by anything in this film necessarily. I
Speaker 2: saw everything it was doing like I saw it coming,
Speaker 2: because I, you know, lived that for so much of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, especially like the twenty twenty protests in Portland,
Speaker 2: but also my familiarity with it was also I was
Speaker 2: also able to then like diagnose how the film was
Speaker 2: subtly like diverting from reality and just showcasing what twenty
Speaker 2: twenty felt like, and like what twenty twenty was the
Speaker 2: minds of, like people who believed in conspiracy theories more
Speaker 2: so than the actual reality of twenty twenty, which I
Speaker 2: also discussed more with Jennie Danger later. But I think
Speaker 2: like the genre switching and then setting up all of
Speaker 2: these like twenty twenty hallmarks. I think the film does
Speaker 2: really well doing like pretty solid foreshadowing and hitting all
Speaker 2: the points you're going to have to hit if you're
Speaker 2: gonna make a film about twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have the Wayfarer pedophile closets.
Speaker 5: Totally qan on cults, child trafficking.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I watched the movie Network like for four days
Speaker 4: before I watched this.
Speaker 2: Need I need to see Networks. Oh my god, Robert's
Speaker 2: been trying to get me to watch it for years.
Speaker 5: I just have never found the time. I guess I
Speaker 5: don't know.
Speaker 4: Ari Astro like explicitly brought up Network and said like
Speaker 4: he was thinking about it while making this movie, but
Speaker 4: that he wanted it to be more because the Network
Speaker 4: is definitely more like it tells you what it means
Speaker 4: sure kind of thing, and like what it thinks is
Speaker 4: the right way to do things.
Speaker 2: And this film purposely does not get into that too much.
Speaker 2: It lets its own depiction tell you.
Speaker 3: It doesn't.
Speaker 2: It doesn't like stop you and explain whatever, like you know,
Speaker 2: like what it's politics are. I think the movie does
Speaker 2: the politics.
Speaker 4: Yes, But I also I thought, in comparing it to network,
Speaker 4: which I will try my heart is not to spoil
Speaker 4: the network, but there there is definitely a theme in
Speaker 4: this and in the network of like forces above this.
Speaker 4: This movie is about political puppets about like non political actors,
Speaker 4: right walkin Phoenix's character talks about how like he's not
Speaker 4: for the government, he's for the people kind of thing,
Speaker 4: so he's clearly doing like a populist thing. And then
Speaker 4: by the end of the movie he's all the more
Speaker 4: like he's literally a puppet, right Like he's he's like
Speaker 4: just a sack of meat that is like it has
Speaker 4: to watch his mom is not even his mom, mom
Speaker 4: mother in law, mother in law, has.
Speaker 3: Ex mother in law.
Speaker 4: It's just incredible, one of the most horrifying concepts. But
Speaker 4: this movie is about like, yeah, a bunch of stuff happens,
Speaker 4: like stuff that's like they're trying to kind of throw
Speaker 4: off the balance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people are trying to make political change while dealing
Speaker 2: with this problem that politics is both very real, it's physical,
Speaker 2: it determines almost everything about our lives, but it's also
Speaker 2: very vague and nebulous and removed. So like, how do
Speaker 2: you exert agency over something that is both real and
Speaker 2: non real? To be a political actor, do you have
Speaker 2: to literally be like an astroturfed paid actor. The people
Speaker 2: that seemingly have the most political agency aren't even acting
Speaker 2: on any personal agency but instead of just furthering the
Speaker 2: interests of other entities.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but the corporation's the big money people. Whoever's like
Speaker 4: in the background, right the playing with the giant hand
Speaker 4: holding the globe and the.
Speaker 3: Antiva globe jet. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Okay, here's a question because because when I
Speaker 4: watched it, I thought that it was it's like paid actors, right,
Speaker 4: Like they're paid like a paid clisson group.
Speaker 3: That's what That's what I write it as.
Speaker 2: I think it's left for audience interpretation whether whether or
Speaker 2: not this is like the George Soros funded Antifa like
Speaker 2: Specop's crew, who are genuine about their beliefs, or if
Speaker 2: they're like a false flag crew who's just going around
Speaker 2: so in chaos to promote like political discord, but not
Speaker 2: for like ideological reasons, like just just through like false
Speaker 2: flag attacks. I think it's intentionally left up to the audience,
Speaker 2: and I think it's it's depicting that because of all
Speaker 2: of like the Antifa conspiracy theories going around in twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: and I view that as a it's like a manifestation
Speaker 2: of how the right wing viewed this concept of Antifa,
Speaker 2: even though Antifa is actually just teenagers wearing black hoodies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they treated it as if it was this like
Speaker 2: organized group going around.
Speaker 4: Doing push ups on their private chat, smoking big cigars,
Speaker 4: getting air dropped into into small towns to go exactly
Speaker 4: blow things up.
Speaker 3: Is exactly so funny of Antifa are coming in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then that leads into what I think is
Speaker 4: the best joke in the movie, the TikTok zoomer guy
Speaker 4: shooting while holding his phone, and then like it cuts
Speaker 4: immediately into like a now this uh like.
Speaker 1: TikTok about the Antifa. It's like militia time is And
Speaker 1: then he's like a.
Speaker 4: Hype guy and he's got like a podcast where he's
Speaker 4: talking about if Michelle Obama's going to run for president
Speaker 4: or whatever, like so good, what did.
Speaker 3: You what did you think of?
Speaker 4: Kind of the the semi cliffhanger conclusion of some of
Speaker 4: the threads, I guess because and I'm only thinking about
Speaker 4: this as a cliffhanger because he's talked about it him
Speaker 4: making a sequel if that makes sense.
Speaker 5: Yeah, like a like like a loose sequel.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, with like some of the same characters.
Speaker 3: I guess, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I have felt pretty satisfied with how this wrapped up,
Speaker 2: because I mean, twenty twenty did not have a real ending.
Speaker 5: We are still living in the shadow of twenty and twenty.
Speaker 2: There still is loose threads, like COVID still is a
Speaker 2: thing that exists of We're still living with, like the
Speaker 2: way political violence escalated and never fully went away with,
Speaker 2: especially like January sixth, and how even the concept of
Speaker 2: pedophilia still runs almost all of politics. Like this is
Speaker 2: what politics is about, is like deciding who is and
Speaker 2: isn't a pedophile. Yeah, like the whole conspiracy theory angle.
Speaker 2: More people are conspiracy theorists now than I think they
Speaker 2: were in twenty twenty, including like liberals. Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 2: the whole like blue and on conspiracy theories, the alt
Speaker 2: National Park, Blue Sky accounts, the Trump assassination was staged,
Speaker 2: like all of that kind of stuff. Is like this
Speaker 2: has just become all of what politics is.
Speaker 1: It's what your mom does.
Speaker 4: It's what like your mom or like your every one
Speaker 4: of your parents.
Speaker 2: Does and not just your right wing mom now like
Speaker 2: this is like everybody's mom. Yeah, And I think that's
Speaker 2: the sort of American decline that are Yeah is depicting.
Speaker 2: As opposed to the type that James Gunn is depicting.
Speaker 1: I think it's much more accurate.
Speaker 5: I agree, and it's much more holistic.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't think you could.
Speaker 4: I obviously, I don't think you could kind of really
Speaker 4: hold the schizophrenia that the post twenty twenty post lockdown
Speaker 4: political schizophrenia that we exist and currently I agree, where
Speaker 4: like everything is ungrounded. You know, you can't do a
Speaker 4: superhero story like that. I don't think there's like no
Speaker 4: way to do that.
Speaker 2: No, unless you use my favorite superhero, the Question Yes,
Speaker 2: in which you could do that, and James Gutt if
Speaker 2: you're listening, I will write to a Question film and
Speaker 2: it will be crazy. But like in terms of like
Speaker 2: like filmmaking, I think I think post woke as like
Speaker 2: a filmmaking style, and like what our aster is doing
Speaker 2: here is a reaction to the past, like ten years
Speaker 2: of liberal self aggrandizing movies as content slop right, which
Speaker 2: tries to get points for like diversity casting without having
Speaker 2: any actual substance of politics or will like gesture to
Speaker 2: things relating to class, even though it's made by these big,
Speaker 2: you know, multi billion dollar corporations. And I think that
Speaker 2: whole era produced this sort of schizophrenia because everything feels
Speaker 2: so paradoxical and self contradictory. And I think part of
Speaker 2: the feelings that evokes is what Eddington is trying to
Speaker 2: pull on and depicting those feelings as a subject itself,
Speaker 2: not just as like a background thing that we try
Speaker 2: to either like acknowledge sort of or try to like
Speaker 2: not acknowledge and like ignore. I think viewing that that
Speaker 2: cultural schizophrenia as a subject, if anything, that's like the
Speaker 2: main character of Eddington. And I think that's the part
Speaker 2: that that worked the most for me.
Speaker 4: I I yeah, I think it structure wise, A lot
Speaker 4: of people were talking about like it feels like too.
Speaker 3: Scattered of a movie.
Speaker 4: I think I saw that a lot, and like the
Speaker 4: critiques of it, and I think, like, sure, if we're
Speaker 4: talking about like just you know, does it become a
Speaker 4: little confusing to follow. Maybe, but it's like that's the
Speaker 4: point and not to say like that's the point, so
Speaker 4: it washes that away. But like I don't think you
Speaker 4: can I don't think you can make a movie accurately.
Speaker 2: You can't make a movie about that era without it
Speaker 2: feeling scattered like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I really respect our astor. I think
Speaker 1: I was talking to my partner.
Speaker 4: Yesterday about who's the guy that made like Nosferatu and
Speaker 4: all those movies.
Speaker 1: Robert Eggers.
Speaker 4: Robert Eggers very good filmmaker, but he's explicitly talked about
Speaker 4: how he doesn't ever.
Speaker 5: Want want to do modern films.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a modern film, I guess. I haven't seen The Shrouds,
Speaker 4: but I've heard very good things about it.
Speaker 3: Me neither me neither.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to see that.
Speaker 4: Movie because I think Cronenberg is another one who's like
Speaker 4: I also want.
Speaker 1: I watched a great lineup for this movie.
Speaker 4: I watched Cronenberg's What's the Video Drome recently?
Speaker 3: That's good.
Speaker 2: I can definitely see Eddington kind of being a grandchild
Speaker 2: of video drone in some ways.
Speaker 4: I would also recommend. I've also I've been reading Mark
Speaker 4: Fischer's Flatline Constructs.
Speaker 5: This is a very Fisher movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very Fisher.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I literally I listened to the stupid Russell Brand audiobook
Speaker 4: of Capitalist Real No.
Speaker 3: Oh, that sucks.
Speaker 4: I know, Russell Brand sucks, but I was at work
Speaker 4: and I just needed something to listen to, so I
Speaker 4: didn't like blow my head off and it didn't end
Speaker 4: up working out actually because I was working my shitty
Speaker 4: job and listening to.
Speaker 2: Capitalists Brandy Russell Brand, Russell Brands capitalist realism.
Speaker 3: Oh god, what a bummer.
Speaker 5: Yeah, truly, Mark Fisher is only l Yeah.
Speaker 4: It is unbearable to have to listen to his voice.
Speaker 4: But it's a great book. I would definitely recommend reading
Speaker 4: that if you want to go into Eddington even more
Speaker 4: like locked In, I guess, but this is a very
Speaker 4: like yeah, like uh you know, capital can convert anything
Speaker 4: into the image of something else. There was one shot
Speaker 4: that I really I found very evocative, which was the
Speaker 4: shot of him walking Phoenix's characters having his haircut by
Speaker 4: his whatever stepmom ex stepmom, and she's talking about like
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory while filming it. That's good for TikTok, And
Speaker 4: it's like this is so perfect and so morbid and.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, no, there's a little bit of like Butdriard's
Speaker 2: book on America here, there's certainly a lot of Gedaboard
Speaker 2: in this, and I think that also was part of
Speaker 2: what relates it to me to Superman is how much
Speaker 2: like Superman is accidentally doing gedaboard regarding the genocide and Palestine,
Speaker 2: and how much I think that critique is actually built
Speaker 2: into Eddington.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, I Superman is such an an interesting movie
Speaker 4: to take on that subject because obviously, in a way
Speaker 4: you're kind of like, well, good for James Gunn for
Speaker 4: doing something daring.
Speaker 1: I guess daring, I say with air quotes.
Speaker 4: But it's also like you have the Israel Palestine stuff
Speaker 4: right after a scene where Superman saves a green baby
Speaker 4: from a river of like cosmic sludge.
Speaker 3: Of like CGI squares.
Speaker 4: Yeah, which, by the way, I'm sure I don't know
Speaker 4: if this is the general consensus, but I thought that
Speaker 4: that scene was ugliest sin.
Speaker 1: And I kind of hated it.
Speaker 2: Also, I hated the whole Pocket dimension. Yeah, aspect I
Speaker 2: don't I don't know why they didn't do a quick,
Speaker 2: like ten minute interlude into the Phantom Zone keep it that.
Speaker 2: But no, I think that that whole Pocket Dimension like
Speaker 2: forty minutes like derailed and stagnated a lot of the
Speaker 2: film for me and did not look very good.
Speaker 4: He's doing like Lex Luthor's Peter Teal, Lex Luthor is
Speaker 4: Elon Musk Lex Luthor's which could work. Yeah, yeah, which
Speaker 4: I think. I think I found it funny at least
Speaker 4: I've said, like totally. I watched it and I thought like, oh,
Speaker 4: I know what he's doing. You know that he's Peter Teal,
Speaker 4: shut down Gawker.
Speaker 5: Or whatever, crying men baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's like I get it, but I also,
Speaker 4: I mean, it's been done before kind of thing, like
Speaker 4: I don't find it, you know that I don't know,
Speaker 4: but he hey, his performance is great. But then the
Speaker 4: whole Palestine stuff is also capped off with a scene
Speaker 4: where Lex Luthor gets like bullied by a dog. You know,
Speaker 4: it's sandwiched between two things that are just like I
Speaker 4: don't know if you can do this or if you
Speaker 4: should do this, Like I don't know.
Speaker 2: No, it is I think it's it's part of that
Speaker 2: sort of cultural schizophrenia that I think that Eddington is
Speaker 2: pulling on. Yeah, is moments like that in the David
Speaker 2: Zaslov Winner Brothers Discovery Superman twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4: Eddington just is you know, it's a film that is
Speaker 4: like its entire thesis is that is the is the
Speaker 4: jumping around, the just ret like his car is covered
Speaker 4: in shit for the entire movie.
Speaker 1: I love it so funny.
Speaker 4: All the slogans are like kind of like they're all
Speaker 4: trying to put in their own little thing, you know,
Speaker 4: Like he's like, can we make it about bitcoin?
Speaker 1: Can we make it about.
Speaker 2: It's like a twenty twenty conservative Facebook feed brought to life.
Speaker 4: Yes, Yes, it's a great movie. I love Eddington. I
Speaker 4: think that this movie will age very well.
Speaker 5: Well, what would you like to plug daily new Poster?
Speaker 1: I think you should follow me.
Speaker 4: If you have an X, you should follow me on
Speaker 4: at what is it called?
Speaker 1: At New Poster two?
Speaker 4: On X. If you're on Instagram, you should follow me
Speaker 4: at postalytical blame, which is a terrible username, but I
Speaker 4: made it's my writing username, like ages ago, I think.
Speaker 4: And then on Blue Sky if you use that, you
Speaker 4: should follow me at what even is micha blue Sky?
Speaker 1: I don't even use I'm gonna be honest, I don't
Speaker 1: use Blue Sky.
Speaker 2: But if you if we got to fix the vibes
Speaker 2: on there, Bailey, we got it, we got we got
Speaker 2: we got to get more like crazy crazy unhinged art
Speaker 2: on Blue Sky.
Speaker 4: Right, it's it's new poster dot, blue sky, dot social
Speaker 4: or whatever.
Speaker 3: So there you go if you need that.
Speaker 1: There, there's the there's the plugs.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you for coming on to talk about Eddington
Speaker 5: and Superman.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for inviting me. This has been wonderful.
Speaker 4: I love Eddington. I enjoyed Superman. So this is a
Speaker 4: good talk.
Speaker 5: There you go, Lovely Lovely.
Speaker 2: For the last segment of our post Woke Cinema episode,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna play a conversation I had with Atlanta musician
Speaker 2: Jane Danger, who we talk about her thoughts on the
Speaker 2: film Eddington and the way it manifests twenty twenties hyperreality.
Speaker 3: Just a little background, I guess, like I really like
Speaker 3: ari Asta. I remember talking with you about Bo's Afraid
Speaker 3: a while ago. I remember you weren't a huge fan
Speaker 3: of it, not so hot.
Speaker 5: I'm Bo's Afraid. I'm Afraid.
Speaker 2: I wanted to like it too, because whenever people talk
Speaker 2: about this like like like off putting long slows in
Speaker 2: him up about like anxiety, like I want to like that.
Speaker 2: Like Inland Empayer is one of the best films ever,
Speaker 2: there's other other other films that do is that that
Speaker 2: that also tackle its not just like David Lynch. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and like the rest of Ariaster, I was always like
Speaker 2: lukewarm to kind of positive on Like, I don't hate
Speaker 2: him as a filmmaker. I don't have that as part
Speaker 2: of my personality the way some people do. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think his movies are just fine. I think he does
Speaker 2: dabble in or I guess he like overlies on a
Speaker 2: degree of shalk value, which you could even see in
Speaker 2: his earlier like Student films. Yeah, I think are like
Speaker 2: very juvenile and not interesting. I think Hereditary is fine.
Speaker 2: So ari Aster has always like been there, but I've
Speaker 2: never been like a Ariaster in bio.
Speaker 3: I think he's kind of cool to hate now, Like
Speaker 3: I think with.
Speaker 2: He's very cool to hate now people people people really
Speaker 2: like hating him. But Eddington I think has done him
Speaker 2: a lot of favors though among the people who used
Speaker 2: to hate him.
Speaker 3: I've kind of noticed that it seems like with Hereditary
Speaker 3: in Midsommer, those were generally like very well received by
Speaker 3: like the a twenty four crowd yea, and it was
Speaker 3: kind of like, I guess the cool opinion would be
Speaker 3: to be like those movies are mid and then like
Speaker 3: Bo was Afraid is a masterpiece or whatever. I like
Speaker 3: his horror movies. I think they're slick, well made films
Speaker 3: with good stories. I love bo Was Afraid though, I
Speaker 3: think it's incredible, but it is not the kind of
Speaker 3: it's the kind of movie that like, as much as
Speaker 3: I love it, as much as it means to me,
Speaker 3: as seen as I feel by that film, it's not
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that, like, if you don't like it,
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna like convince you. You know, Like there's
Speaker 3: probably like if you told me you didn't like Maholland Drive,
Speaker 3: like I'd be like, you're fucking stupid and wrong, You're dumb.
Speaker 3: If you tell me you don't like Bo Was Afraid,
Speaker 3: it's like fair enough. It's it's sure certainly the kind
Speaker 3: of thing that's not for everyone. I bring it up
Speaker 3: mostly because I think with Bo and Eddington, it's a
Speaker 3: very interesting thing he does that is kind of I
Speaker 3: guess I compared to maybe like a French new wave directors,
Speaker 3: maybe like something like Selene and Julie go Boding, where
Speaker 3: the like protagonists are living in like a fake insane reality,
Speaker 3: where in other directors, like most other films, like you'd
Speaker 3: have someone who's like going insane and hallucinating and like
Speaker 3: everyone's trying to kill them, et cetera. And then maybe
Speaker 3: there would be like a cut.
Speaker 5: Which is kind of what happens to Bow Is Afraid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but in other movies there would maybe be like
Speaker 3: a cut away for someone else where they see like
Speaker 3: the character like arguing to a shadow like the quote
Speaker 3: unquote real perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think
Speaker 3: that bo Is Afraid it's like, it's no, this is real.
Speaker 3: And I think Eddington does a very similar thing where
Speaker 3: the beliefs of the characters are real. And that's why, like,
Speaker 3: you know, all the conservatives, like I mean, if you
Speaker 3: remember twenty twenty, they're like there's Antipho super soldiers that
Speaker 3: are going out and doing terrorism. It's like so in
Speaker 3: this world, in the Eddington universe, it's like what if
Speaker 3: that was real? Like what if Fox News was actually
Speaker 3: in motion here? And I think that's very interesting.
Speaker 2: The approach that he does in Eddington, I think is
Speaker 2: a little bit more subtle than the way there's in
Speaker 2: Bo's Afraid, because you start the film way way more
Speaker 2: as like as like you know, a political satire on
Speaker 2: the absurdity of like pandemic era America, and then the
Speaker 2: reality starts diverting from what we can agree as like
Speaker 2: as like a shared consensus reality, and then it diverts
Speaker 2: from that the same way reality diverted away from that
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty for people, and we created this like yeah,
Speaker 2: massive like reality fracture point.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like the first time I noticed this in the filmmaking
Speaker 2: was there was like a news clip about like a
Speaker 2: Portland riot in twenty twenty, and it had people like
Speaker 2: exchanging gunfire on rooftops and it was played next to
Speaker 2: actual news clips of like the Third Precinct burning down,
Speaker 2: Like it was played off as like a real, legitimate
Speaker 2: news clip. Yeah, and like I was, I lived in
Speaker 2: Important in twenty twenty. I know that's not real, but
Speaker 2: to many people viewing, they might not catch that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that might just be like that might just go into
Speaker 2: the background. So at that point I realized that actually
Speaker 2: the way that reality is getting diverted into film is
Speaker 2: way more subtle. And then of course you get like
Speaker 2: the Antifa super soldier private jet later and it's more obvious,
Speaker 2: like what he's doing, But even like small things like that,
Speaker 2: I started to really appreciate you, Like, no, you're like
Speaker 2: getting into the mind of people who believe these things,
Speaker 2: and that's what we're that's what's being depicted, Like the
Speaker 2: feelings of twenty twenty are more important than the reality
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, and that is what he's trying to show.
Speaker 3: That's even kind of like a meta in a sense,
Speaker 3: because it's like if you watch that scene of like
Speaker 3: the footage of the Portland like shooting and stuff, and
Speaker 3: you as the audience are like questioning if that was real,
Speaker 3: then it's like your consensus reality is also diverging from
Speaker 3: the regular consensus reality. It's like it kind of makes
Speaker 3: you a cipher for the characters, which which also leads
Speaker 3: me to something something else, So something I don't see
Speaker 3: a lot of people talking about. But the vagrant character
Speaker 3: that starts the film where he comes in and he's
Speaker 3: just like mumbling like messages, and if you've ever been
Speaker 3: around like a you know, like a homeless person on
Speaker 3: a bus or something, they like to mumble. And it's
Speaker 3: I read that as someone who's like just essentially doing
Speaker 3: what everyone else in this movie eventually comes to do
Speaker 3: totally yes, which is just taking all of your like
Speaker 3: internalized like messages, traumas like things you've heard, things you believe,
Speaker 3: and just like grumbling it, spitting it out and to
Speaker 3: anyone who talks to you, just incessantly, just like messages, messages, messages.
Speaker 2: The similarity of that character to like the mom character
Speaker 2: who does the same thing but is seen in a
Speaker 2: very different way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because a house she.
Speaker 5: Has like a home to live in and has like family.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And there's no there's no place for a person
Speaker 3: like the vagrant in this world, but there is a
Speaker 3: place for all these other types of insane people, and
Speaker 3: they're all able to find their little little niches and such,
Speaker 3: when maybe in a world before that, in a world
Speaker 3: before it was so easy to find such niches, maybe
Speaker 3: like you would, I don't know, go to therapy, maybe
Speaker 3: like maybe your family would would be concerned. It is
Speaker 3: very interesting because people very are are very prone now
Speaker 3: and it's like that's because they're able to like get
Speaker 3: pulled into these cults. They find their own kind of
Speaker 3: Austin Butler figure who's able to talk to them directly
Speaker 3: and be like, no, come with me, You're okay. And
Speaker 3: just to go back to the point of like messages
Speaker 3: and stuff. I think that the uh, the Joaquin Phoenix character.
Speaker 3: I think he starts out as a very like uh
Speaker 3: like Hank Hill, like very I mean, he doesn't he
Speaker 3: doesn't want to wear a mask. He's obviously leans a
Speaker 3: bit conservative, but.
Speaker 2: But he's like trying to kind of be like a
Speaker 2: reasonable guy, right, And I.
Speaker 3: See him as someone who's trying to like avoid the
Speaker 3: messaging from everyone. Like even when people tell him about
Speaker 3: like certain news stories and stuff, he's like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: like he just doesn't know. And Yeah, in the process
Speaker 3: of him like avoiding all these messages, what does he do.
Speaker 3: He buys a truck and covers it in fucking messages.
Speaker 2: In messages he starts broadcasting his reality to everyone around
Speaker 2: him exactly.
Speaker 3: It's like, uh, I don't know. I think that Normally,
Speaker 3: normally I would call it bad writing for like every
Speaker 3: character to be like a cipher. But I think what
Speaker 3: what he does in this is is really really interesting.
Speaker 3: Like I think it's uh, I don't know. I guess
Speaker 3: like one more thing that I really like, do want
Speaker 3: to say is like Ari Astor did an interview with
Speaker 3: Will Miniker and Hesse of like Chapo, and he said
Speaker 3: that he kind of wanted to make this movie like
Speaker 3: a Rorshack test of sorts, and I think he maybe
Speaker 3: overly succeeded in that definitely. And in fact, if I
Speaker 3: had one criticism, it's that maybe I wish there was
Speaker 3: like a few things like tied together that and I
Speaker 3: just wish Austin Butler and Emma Stone got a little
Speaker 3: more meat to do things. But aside from that, one
Speaker 3: of the biggest criticisms that I'm honestly just going to
Speaker 3: dismiss outright as people saying that this is like a
Speaker 3: centrist movie totally, or comparing this to South Park or
Speaker 3: something like that. And if you view this as a
Speaker 3: centrist movie, I mean the liberals in this are like
Speaker 3: kind of annoying, ineffectual. A lot of them don't really
Speaker 3: believe what they do. Some of them do. I think
Speaker 3: the girl character is very sympathetic, but like the younger girl.
Speaker 3: But Joaquin Phoenix, the ostensible like you know, right wing
Speaker 3: version of this, kills a child like he kills three people,
Speaker 3: including like a teenager.
Speaker 2: Like the woke characters engage with politics in a that
Speaker 2: but and self serving way to mask their own insecurities
Speaker 2: and shortcomings and for their own personal benefit. The right
Speaker 2: wing characters murder and have rape cults, and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Like, I don't see how you could look
Speaker 3: at the actions of the characters in this film and
Speaker 3: just be like, yeah, I guess everyone is stupid. I
Speaker 3: guess everyone is wrong, because it's like no, like I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess everyone is a little stupid and everyone is
Speaker 3: kind of wrong about things. But like, that's not like
Speaker 3: what it's getting across. I think that's a very shallow
Speaker 3: read of the film.
Speaker 2: This is what people outside of the Brooklyn theater were
Speaker 2: complaining about when I eavesdropped for like nearly forty five
Speaker 2: minutes after the film, just to hear what people were
Speaker 2: talking about. I love eavesdropping, I love snooping, So I
Speaker 2: was really feasting out there, and yeah, a lot of
Speaker 2: people upset at how quote unquote little this film had
Speaker 2: to say. It's just it's just depicting these things but
Speaker 2: doesn't have the audacity to actually like say anything about
Speaker 2: them or like take a quote unquote stance, and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's so not what the film is trying to do.
Speaker 2: That the film is pointing out, like the social media
Speaker 2: style engagement with politics is this incredibly self serving thing.
Speaker 2: And it's this performance that we put on for other
Speaker 2: people and sometimes put on even for ourselves. And twenty
Speaker 2: twenty was a way because of the conditions of the lockdown,
Speaker 2: the internet and real life combined in a way more
Speaker 2: like totalistically than they have ever before. And then that
Speaker 2: combination grew pressure and shot outwards into physical reality in
Speaker 2: a very bombastic way, both for the twenty twenty protests
Speaker 2: and eventually something like January sixth, Right, both these things, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you can you can look at a similar
Speaker 2: like political pressure like building and manifesting.
Speaker 3: And it's not saying these things are equal.
Speaker 2: It's not the centrist I'm better than thou for you
Speaker 2: look at all these crazy guys, But it's it's talking
Speaker 2: about how we as a culture associate with politics now
Speaker 2: and like how as like American culture we associate with
Speaker 2: politics now, and maybe that's kind of troubling and kind
Speaker 2: of scary. That's like the horror of the film is, Yeah,
Speaker 2: the way that we associate with social media politics now
Speaker 2: is really frightening. Which isn't like a revolutionary thing to say, right,
Speaker 2: This isn't like, you know, breaking new ground here, but
Speaker 2: he is expressing something that everyone I think has felt
Speaker 2: at a certain point. Sure, but it's it's presented in
Speaker 2: a way that I think is it very much is
Speaker 2: a Rorschack test for a lot of people.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people are uncomfortable. I think
Speaker 3: some people just see too much of themselves, and like
Speaker 3: I was speaking specifically to like liberal audiences, I think
Speaker 3: a lot of them are seeing something of themselves and
Speaker 3: they feel like they're being made fun of and they
Speaker 3: don't appreciate that. I'll just say I was at the
Speaker 3: Black Lives Matter protests and stuff.
Speaker 2: I was there, and I don't feel that way. No,
Speaker 2: I don't think I was being made fun of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like Like I think that, like that's
Speaker 3: kind of on you as a viewer for like expecting
Speaker 3: a movie to like look directly in the camera and
Speaker 3: be like, I believe the same things you believe, you know,
Speaker 3: because that's I mean, that's bad filmmaking, that's bad Riding.
Speaker 5: Explains the exact type of communist that I am.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, I'm the exact kind of leftist you are.
Speaker 3: We are on the same side and we're all laughing
Speaker 3: at the same things together.
Speaker 2: It's like, no, and if if your engagement with like
Speaker 2: social justice and anti police brutality protests is shallow enough
Speaker 2: to feel called out in a film like this. I
Speaker 2: think that is cause more for self reflection for why
Speaker 2: you participated in those things. Yeah, I agree, not a
Speaker 2: fault of the film where it's not the film taking
Speaker 2: a stance against those things. I think it's it's showing
Speaker 2: there's certain types of people who participated in an extremely
Speaker 2: performative and like self serving manner. Yeah, and like specifically
Speaker 2: the way that like the main like like like zoomer
Speaker 2: guy character who in the end becomes a right wing
Speaker 2: grifter kylet. It's like it's I think this manifests this
Speaker 2: like like like perfectly. Like I think his his character,
Speaker 2: I think is one of the funniest characters in the film.
Speaker 2: One of the best jokes is just him like liking
Speaker 2: a tweet googling Angela Davos. So I think that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff is more what it's talking about. And when
Speaker 2: you have those types of people being some of the
Speaker 2: most vocal people at these events, it contributes to this
Speaker 2: like kind of psychosis. Yeah, and that I think that's
Speaker 2: what the film is specifically saying.
Speaker 3: I mean, do we forget that people like Sean King
Speaker 3: were like popular in twenty twenty. Look, if you see
Speaker 3: this and like the portrayal of like these liberal characters
Speaker 3: doesn't apply to you. I don't know why you're mad.
Speaker 3: I don't know why you would like look at that
Speaker 3: and being like, oh, they're making fun of me and everything.
Speaker 3: I believe because if it doesn't apply to you, then
Speaker 3: it doesn't apply to you. And that was how I
Speaker 3: watched the film, Like I didn't feel like any of
Speaker 3: these characters applied to me, so I don't really care.
Speaker 3: And I guess a final point is like I haven't
Speaker 3: heard anyone else say this, but like Shriff Joe at
Speaker 3: the end of the film is I feel like it's
Speaker 3: very unsubtle symbolism to say that he's lobotomized with if
Speaker 3: Ice stabbed in the in the head with a knife.
Speaker 3: That's what happened to all of us in a way.
Speaker 3: And I mean, it's funny that Ariastra avoided a lot
Speaker 3: of mother related trauma up until the very very end
Speaker 3: of the movie. The very last seed he had just
Speaker 3: squeezed it in there. I know, I know which it was.
Speaker 3: I know, and he's being like raised in the bed
Speaker 3: and this kind of like angelic like ascension kind of thing.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think that it's I think it's
Speaker 3: a pretty unsubtle and funny way of saying that, like
Speaker 3: there's really for some people after going fully there in
Speaker 3: like being insane, after like just plunging yourself into the
Speaker 3: heart of all of this like chaos and unreality, that
Speaker 3: the only thing that is going to save you is
Speaker 3: a lobotomy, if nothing else. I think that's very funny.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. I've wondered after
Speaker 3: about a week after I saw it, I was kicking
Speaker 3: it around in my head more and I was wondering,
Speaker 3: like will this grow on me? Will this age well?
Speaker 3: And I think it definitely has grown on me the
Speaker 3: more I've thought about it.
Speaker 2: Same it has also grown me more over time. Once
Speaker 2: I got out of the theater, I was storting through
Speaker 2: a lot of different feelings about what I just saw,
Speaker 2: and it has definitely grown me over time. Where can
Speaker 2: people find you and your work?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm a musician. You can go to Jenidanger
Speaker 3: dot com and find most of my links and stuff.
Speaker 3: I have a new song and video out. I'm working
Speaker 3: on a new album that should come out later this year,
Speaker 3: and if you're in the Atlanta area, I'm playing a
Speaker 3: show at the end of August at Bogs Social and
Speaker 3: the Mainline Music Festival in September. But if you follow
Speaker 3: me on like Instagram or whatever, you should have all
Speaker 3: your updates there, and you can follow me on letterbox
Speaker 3: at Jenny Danger. So yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5: Thank you Jane.
Speaker 2: That does it for us at It Could Happen Here.
Speaker 2: Thanks once again to Jane Danger and Bailey new Poster.
Speaker 2: Follow them both online. They do great work. If you
Speaker 2: want some good music, listen to Jane. If you want
Speaker 2: some cool art, look up a Bailey new Poster. Oh boy,
Speaker 2: I guess I will hopefully see you on the other
Speaker 2: side of this post. Woke Nightmare, Bye bye.
Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
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Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.