1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean we don't have 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: a great show for you. Today. Lillly Anilek examines her 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 2: new book Didion Babbitts, which is all about Joan Didion's 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: interesting life and relationship with the writer Eve Babbitts. But 8 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: first we'll talk to author Ken Follow. We'll talk to 9 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: us about the cathedral and the reopening of Notre Dame. 10 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, ken Follow it. 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's great to be here. 12 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: It's very exciting to have you because besides being an 13 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: incredibly famous historical novelist and a spy novelist and a 14 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: genius and a pillar of British fabulousness, you are also 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: probably my mother's longest friend ever. 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 3: I think that might be true. Yes, So I know. 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: You really well, and or at least as well as 18 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: I know anyone, and I was so excited to get 19 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: to talk to you about politics because though you guys 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: have been very involved in politics the UK, the Notre 21 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: Damn story is sort of more expansive than any of 22 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: that so explain to our listeners your relationship with the 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: cathedral and then go from there. 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 3: It's a little unexpected because I'm an atheist and have 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: been all my adult life, so it was unexpected that 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 3: I would write a book about cathedrals. What attracted me 27 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 3: to the notion was the fact that cathedrals were built 28 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 3: by a team of people. Cathedral is a work of art, 29 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 3: but it isn't the work of one person. It's the 30 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: work of the whole team. It's a kind of community exercise. 31 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 3: And from a literary point of view, that appealed to 32 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 3: me greatly because then you can have several major characters 33 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 3: who are interacting and perhaps quarreling and having differences of 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: opinion and maybe even fighting with each other. So I 35 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: wrote it because I wrote it, not for any reason 36 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: of faith. I wrote it because I thought it could 37 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: be a great popular novel, like Gone with the Wind, 38 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 3: and it's very very successful. Happened is that I'm the 39 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 3: person people turned to comment on anything to do with cathedrals. Now, 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 3: of course, there are many people in the world who 41 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: know more about church architecture than I do, but they're 42 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: not celebrities, and so shows shows call me, which is 43 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 3: very nice for me. 44 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: You wrote a couple of novels about cathedrals and then 45 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: you went to nonfiction. Just explain to us sort of 46 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: how that happened. 47 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 3: When I told my publishers that I wanted to write 48 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 3: The Pillars of the Earth, some of them were really 49 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 3: very worried and they said, so Ken, it's about building 50 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: a church in the Middle Ages. Are you sure your 51 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: readers while buy this book. You know, when it was 52 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: first published it had quite modest sales, but then it 53 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 3: became kind of a word of mouth thing. You know. 54 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 3: It was on the German bestseller list for six years 55 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 3: and we've now sold twenty nine million copies of The 56 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 3: Pillars of the Earth. So it's it's so well known. 57 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 3: And then when not at Arm caught on fire the 58 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: way we've I found out about it, Barbara and I 59 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 3: were in the kitchen just finishing supper and the phone 60 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 3: rang and it was a very old friend of ours. 61 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: Since this is a political show, I'll tell you that 62 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 3: that very old friend is now the Home Secretary of 63 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: the British in the kstar and government. 64 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: And your wife, Barbara was an MP. 65 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 3: Yes, Barbara was elected in nineteen ninety seven and they 66 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 3: were both involved in the Tony Blair government, so they're 67 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 3: great friends friends. And anyway, Yvett said, I'm in Paris, 68 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 3: put the TV on, and of course we've put the 69 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 3: TV on and you know what we saw. But the 70 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: thing about that night was that the journalists covering this 71 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: fire didn't really understand what was burning. Because this is 72 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: a stone building, a right, so how does it catch fire? 73 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: So how does it catch fire off its a stone building? 74 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 3: Well I knew because while I was writing The Pillars 75 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 3: of the Earth, I'd studied cathedral fires in the Middle Ages, 76 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 3: and many of them did burn down. And what happens 77 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: is the fire star in the roof, which is the 78 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: only part of the church that's not made of stone. 79 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: And in the case of Notre Dame, of course, the 80 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 3: timbers in the roof were eight hundred years old and 81 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: very dry. Plus those spaces, those roof spaces are hardly 82 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 3: ever seen by anybody except workmen, so they're full of debris. 83 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 3: They have bits of old rope and bits of wood, 84 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 3: birds nests and wasps nests, and modern litter, cigarette packets 85 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: and sandwich wrappers that have been left thereby people who've 86 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 3: gone up to do a bit of work in the 87 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 3: roof space, so it's easy to see how a dropped 88 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: cigarette or an electrical spark could have set fire to 89 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: the litter, which would have then set fire to the roof. 90 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 3: And I tweeted that I was watching that evening, I 91 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 3: was watching TV and social media at the same time, 92 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: and I just tweeted, this is how the fire must 93 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 3: have started. And I started getting calls from the newsrooms. 94 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 3: So I spent that evening and all of the next 95 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: day explaining this fire to people. And the following day, Wednesday, 96 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 3: I went to Paris to be on a show called 97 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 3: Like Grand Librarie and do the same again. On the 98 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: Thursday morning, my French publisher but I had breakfast with 99 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: her and she said, I'd like you to write a 100 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: short book about why Notre Dame is so important to people, 101 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 3: because there had been worldwide sort of outdwing of emotion 102 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: about this great cathedral burning down. You know, it was 103 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: an interesting question why. So then I wrote another book. 104 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 3: I wrote a nonfiction book, very short book, with the 105 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: proceeds going to the building fund. I've done two quite 106 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 3: well known books about cathedrals, and so on Saturday, when 107 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 3: the cathedral was reopened after more than five years of repairs. 108 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 3: I was there. I was invited to the opening ceremony, 109 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: but I went early. Actually, I went there at eight 110 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning. All the French media had tents 111 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: up on the forecourt of the cathedral, and so I 112 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 3: did interviews. It was raining and freezing cold and windy, 113 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: which is why I've got this cough by the way. 114 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 3: And you know, it was so wonderful in many ways. 115 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: First of all, they were very quick. President Macron said 116 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: we're going to do this in five years and people 117 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: said it's impossible. 118 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: This actually is what I wanted to ask you. So 119 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: I live in New York City. We have a cathedral here, 120 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: Saint John the Demine. It is still being built, right, 121 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: so clearly this is not an easy feat. So how 122 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: did he do it? And you know, I mean it's 123 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: sort of miraculous. 124 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: Right, It's like a miracle, yes. And I you know, 125 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 3: I said, when he made this vow five years ago, 126 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 3: people said it was impossible. I said, you know, I 127 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: know the French a little bit, and when they put 128 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 3: their minds to something, nothing is allowed to get in 129 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 3: the way. And I thought they probably would do it. 130 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: I mean, they've done it by putting an enormous amount 131 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: of money and effort into it. A thousand craftsmen masons obviously, 132 00:06:54,400 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 3: but carpenters and glaziers and lead workers and sculptors. They 133 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: were worried at first whether they could find trees big enough, 134 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: because the beams in the roof have to stretch from 135 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: one side of the nave to the other, and there 136 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: aren't many trees that tall, and they didn't know if 137 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: they had enough trees that tall in France, and they 138 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: were going to look all over the world. But it 139 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: turned out that they did have enough trees in France, 140 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 3: so all the beams of French and they spent about 141 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: eight hundred million euros, all of which was raised by 142 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: the way. The government didn't spend that money that was 143 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 3: raised from the legendies. And I don't know whether this, 144 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 3: whether this is true, but I was told but after 145 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: the fire, Macron phoned up the heads of the ten 146 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 3: richest families in France and said, you've got to give 147 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 3: me one hundred million euros. That's what that's what they're saying. 148 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: I don't know, but certainly, and one of them, Bernardino, 149 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: gave two hundred million dollars euros. Sorry. I was privileged 150 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: to sit next to him at a dinner in Versailles, 151 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: and first thing I said to him over was thank 152 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: you very much for giving two hundred men in euros 153 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: to the rebuilding front. People sent in five euros and 154 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: ten euros. There were donations from all over the world. 155 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: It was a tremendous public response. Everybody involved was thrilled 156 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: with that public response. And I went into the church 157 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 3: just about two months after the fire, I was shown 158 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: around by the architect of the repairs, whose name is 159 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: Philippe Villeneerve. He showed me around, He showed me all 160 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 3: the things I had to do. At the end of it, 161 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 3: I said to him, do you really think you can 162 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 3: do it in five years? And his reply was I hope. 163 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: So talk to me about the significance. France is like 164 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: America going through this anti incumbent craziness. What is it like? 165 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: Bring me to the sort of meaning of something like 166 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: this being repaired, showing the government can work when there 167 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: is such strife in France right now? Government strive. The 168 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: PM just got a vote of no confidence. I mean, 169 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: just sort of what is the significance here? 170 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure Macron would have expected a tremendous outpouring 171 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: of gratitude to him for having pulled this off. But 172 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: the trouble with politics is you never get any gratitude. 173 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 3: If people are driving down a highway, a beautiful highway 174 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 3: at fifty five miles an hour, and they never think, gosh, 175 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 3: are our politicians great for making these roads for us. 176 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 3: But if there are potholes in the road, they say, 177 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: those damn politicians. They can't get anything right. You know, 178 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: in politics, you get blamed for what goes wrong, and 179 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: you get no credit for what goes wrong. This has 180 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 3: not rescued Macron from the political trouble that he's in, 181 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: and the problem that he has actually is not much 182 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: different from the problems of every other major European country, 183 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: which is that the people feel entitled to things like 184 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: good schools and roads with no potholes and a strong 185 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: army to protect them. They feel entitled to all that, 186 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: but if you tell them they've got to pay for it, 187 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: they're horrified. They're in didn't taxes the government weighs so much, 188 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: so that was the issue before the Parliament in the 189 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: week running up to the reopening of Notre Dame and 190 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: what happened in parliamentary terms was the extreme Left Alliance 191 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: and the extreme Right Party run by Marine Lapenn. Basically 192 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: they ganged up and they both voted no confidence in 193 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: the prime minister. He had to resign Barnier his name is. 194 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: And the trouble is nobody knew what to do next. 195 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: Marine la Penn didn't have a plan. The leftists didn't 196 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 3: have a plan. They didn't have a budget. They were 197 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 3: upset at the prime Minister's budget, but they didn't have 198 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: an alternative budget. They had no idea how to give 199 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 3: the French people all the things that they feel entitled 200 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: to without putting taxes up. So nobody knows what's going 201 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 3: to happen next. And well, of course Macron, who's job 202 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: it is to appoint the Prime minister, has got appoint 203 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: a new prime minister. As far as anybody could see, 204 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: the only thing he could possibly do is appoint another 205 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 3: middle of the roader to produce a budget which will 206 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: more or less make sense fiscally. I suppose if he 207 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 3: does that, then the left and the right will gang 208 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 3: up on the new prime minister and get rid of 209 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 3: him as well. So nobody knows where this is going, 210 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 3: and I I must admit it did somewhat sour the 211 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: great celebrations of Macron's achievement in getting the church prepared 212 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 3: in time. 213 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: You tangentially, at least through Barbara having been an MP 214 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: involved in the Labor government. You guys won. That's pretty good. 215 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: Talk to me about what it's like in American politics 216 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: right now. 217 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: American point, I. 218 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: Mean British British politics. American politics are spoken name Eric 219 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: mean about British. 220 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: Politics, British politics. There's been a turnaround. You know, that 221 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: Conservative Party was loath than and hated by the time 222 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: the election came along. They had done so many bad 223 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 3: things and made so many mistakes that everybody hated them. 224 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 3: So they voted for the Labor Party. And then the 225 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: Labor Party came into power and made a mistake. They 226 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: said we're going to have a budget in six weeks time, 227 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: and that was all they said. And what they didn't 228 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 3: realize is that when you are the government, you have 229 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 3: to control the media agenda right from the start, and 230 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 3: you have to constantly be giving the media a story 231 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: that's more or less positive about yourself, otherwise they will 232 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: make up stories than a negative. 233 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: There's a problem we had in the US too. 234 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 4: Go on. 235 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that we announced, there's a 236 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: payment made to pensioners called the Winter Fuel Allowance. Nearly 237 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 3: all of that money is wasted. It's very expensive. Everybody 238 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: gets it. I get it. So you know, I'm driving 239 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: around in a Rolls Royce and they're giving me three 240 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: hundred pounds to make sure I don't get cold in 241 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 3: the winter. It's ludicrous and the obvious thing to do 242 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 3: is only to give it to people who need it. 243 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 3: But that has been blown up into a betrayal of 244 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 3: old people and pensioners in this country now have had 245 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: a better story about them. We should have put out 246 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 3: the story saying most of this money is wasted because 247 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 3: it's given to people who already got plenty of money, 248 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 3: and we're going to stop giving it to rich people 249 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 3: like Ken Follett, and we're going to use some of 250 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 3: the extra money to give more to the people who 251 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: really needed it. That would have been a good story, 252 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: but they didn't think of that. And so what's happened 253 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 3: is that the right wing press has led the media 254 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: agenda and our Prime Minister, Key Kirstarma has become very unpopular. 255 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 3: I think he'll you know, he's only been Prime Minister 256 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: for about three months. He's got five years to win 257 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: it back, and I'm sure he will. But that's the 258 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 3: situation in British politics. At the moment that the Conservative 259 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: Party was unbelievably unpopular, they voted Labor. Now the Labor 260 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 3: Party is unbelievably unpopular. 261 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: So interesting, not so dissimilar from where the United States 262 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: has found itself. Ken file It thank you so much 263 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: for joining us. 264 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 3: It was a great pleasure. I was good to talk 265 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 3: to you more. 266 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: Louie Adlwick is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair and 267 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: a writer at large for Airmail, as well as the 268 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: author of Didion Babbitt's. 269 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics. 270 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 4: Lily God, It's so glad to be here, Mollie. 271 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm just going to talk about you in a very 272 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: annoying way. Jesse usually says to me, it's politics, it's 273 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: fast politics. So I tend not to be able to 274 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: have a lot of my friends on me because a 275 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of my friends are on the culture side. But 276 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: we were like this Trump is about to take over 277 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: the federal government is a complete disaster, and people don't 278 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: want to listen to dire predictions on Christmas. Let's have 279 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: something that isn't soul crushing. And I was like, yes, Lily, 280 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: so here we are, Lily welcome. 281 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 4: Thank you my God. To be described it, he's all crushing, Mollie. 282 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, something that won't make you want to kill 283 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: yourself on Christmas. The goal I want you to explain 284 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: to us. You're involved with a bunch of women, all 285 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: of whom are dead, many of whom are complicated. Tell 286 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: us the story of how you got here. 287 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 4: Just tearing you say that, I guess I have a type. Yeah, yeah, so, 288 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 4: I mean this started so long ago for me with 289 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 4: Eve Babbitt. I didn't read her. I heard about her 290 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 4: through you know, Joe Esther Hass, the guy who did 291 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 4: Base Yes and show Girls, my favorite in Ouvra. So 292 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: he had this period where he was writing a lot 293 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 4: of memoirs, multiple and they were like kind of sleazy 294 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 4: and great. You know, I was reading Hollywood Animal and 295 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 4: he would start each chapter with like, in my memory, 296 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 4: he started each chapter with a quote about you know, Hollywood. 297 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 4: And there was one from a woman named Eve Babbitt's 298 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 4: and it was about sex in La and I just 299 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 4: thought it was so great I'd never heard of this person. 300 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: I knew she was a writer. I found out she 301 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: had all these out of print books, and I bought 302 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 4: Slowday's Fast Company and I just loved it right. And 303 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 4: there was nothing about her on the internet. There was 304 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 4: just no trace of her. All I could find out 305 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 4: was that she'd burnt herself nearly burned herself alive in 306 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 4: the nineties. So I stalked her. You know, she was 307 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 4: in the phone book. I would write her letters, I 308 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 4: would call her, and I didn't get anywhere. But then 309 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 4: kind of finally I started to make some headway at 310 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 4: Vanity Fair, and they were going to let me do 311 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 4: a profile on her. Not that she'd agreed to this, 312 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 4: but at that point I was close with her sister, 313 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 4: her cousins, She had many legions of ex boyfriends, and 314 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 4: I made friends with all of those people. So finally, 315 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 4: one day she told one of the ex boyfriends to 316 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: tell me I could take her to lunch, and I 317 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 4: flew to LA the next day, and that's sort of 318 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 4: how it all started. So I wrote the profile of her. Yeah, 319 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 4: petnah nuts, And I'd written a profile of her for 320 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 4: Vanity Fair. All her books started to get reissued, and 321 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 4: she caught on in this kind of major way. So 322 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 4: she'd sort of been overlooked when she was actually writing. 323 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 4: But you know, now it's like Kendall Jenner is photographed 324 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 4: in a little green bikini reading her on a yacht. 325 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 4: She's like stylish and wow late, you know, like a 326 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 4: pheno on. I didn't write. I wrote a book on 327 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 4: her in twenty nineteen called Hollywood's Eve. I thought I 328 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 4: was done with her. Then she died, and she lived 329 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 4: in this kind of crazy shitthole of a hellhole of ante. 330 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: She was smoking a cigar and she brought the match 331 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 4: while she was in a car, and she just let 332 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 4: herself on fire. Jesus, I know exactly. So she was 333 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 4: now and she had been so intensely social and her 334 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 4: like sex resume may is like no other. But she 335 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 4: withdrew after the fire. She completely withdrew from people. And 336 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 4: she was kind of like a combination of Norma Desmond 337 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 4: and Miss Havisham, you know, wow. And she just stank 338 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 4: and the apartment was filthy. And anyway, there were these 339 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 4: after she died, kind of at the back of a closet, 340 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 4: these boxes were found and they were they'd been packed 341 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: years before by her mother and kind of sealed with 342 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 4: duct tape, and they contained all her letters. And the 343 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 4: first letter I pulled out was this kind of like 344 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 4: harangue like temper tantrum and the guys of a letter 345 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 4: to Joan Diddon in nineteen seventy two. U, And I 346 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 4: knew I was kind of back in. I was under 347 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 4: contract to do a book on a totally different topic, 348 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 4: but I knew I kind of had to. I had 349 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 4: to take this on. 350 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: I love the story. How did she start writing letters 351 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: to Joan Didion? 352 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 4: Part of the same social scene in kind of Manson 353 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 4: Post Manson Hollywood. 354 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 3: Wow? 355 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: Really interesting? 356 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. It's kind of the most glamorous and 357 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 4: the most sinister, you know, period in la I think, 358 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 4: you know. So they started hanging out in kind of 359 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty seven, Joanan and her husband John Greg Ruby 360 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 4: dun they had rented this huge, kind of rambling mansion. 361 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: I've read the pieces she wrote about it. Yeah, yeah, go. 362 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 4: On, yeah, of course, you know White album is all 363 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 4: about that scene in that house. So it was this 364 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 4: kind of huge, kind of alopted mansion on Franklin Avenue 365 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 4: and there were a lot of parties and Eve also 366 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 4: had a lot of parties and a guy named Earl 367 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 4: mc grath and kind of on the scene. It was 368 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 4: like Jennis Joplin. It was you know, Michelle Phillips of 369 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 4: the Mamas and the Papas. It was kind of Hair 370 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 4: Harris imported in his drug dealing in Perpentry Days aired again, 371 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 4: who ran Atlantic Records. So it was kind of these 372 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 4: kind of great cast of characters, kind of flamboyant kind 373 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 4: of artists in flamboyant low lives, and they were really close. 374 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 4: And Evie at that time finding she was a visual 375 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 4: artist at that time and she was designing record albums, 376 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 4: so she had just done a big Buffalo Springfield album, 377 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 4: Buffalo Springfield Again. And she and Joan were very close. 378 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 4: And it was Joan who got her published, you know, 379 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 4: who got her into Rolling Stone magazine, which at that 380 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 4: time was such a huge deal, and then got agreed 381 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 4: to edit her very first book. So they were wow, yeah, 382 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 4: look on seriously intimate terms. And Eve in turn, you know, 383 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 4: Eve was fucking Jim Morrison and Joan was fascinated by him. So, 384 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 4: you know, that kind of famous scene Joan at the 385 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 4: doors recording session. Eve got her there, you know, Eve 386 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 4: was there too that day, but she brought Joan in. 387 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: So what happens next in this relationship between these two women, Yeah, well. 388 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 4: What happens next? So Joan agrees to edit Eve's book 389 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 4: and Eve kind of the word Eve would use with 390 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 4: her boyfriend Paul orshe was I fired Joan. Joan did 391 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 4: not actually work for her, but there exxactly, but like 392 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 4: the sensibility wise, I mean, Eve was enraged by Joan. 393 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 4: I think Joan wanted her to be more disciplined, you know, 394 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 4: perish the thought, and encouraged her to read more Graham Green. 395 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: Somehow she was antithetical to Eve's idea of art and 396 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 4: writing and the fake world, you know. But they kind 397 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 4: of were still in one another's orbit. Like I've had 398 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 4: a serious boyfriend, naed Dan Wakefield, who was a writer 399 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 4: and who was an old friend of Jones. They were 400 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 4: just kind of all over each other in kind of 401 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 4: the late sixties through the seventies. Joan had a secretariat, 402 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 4: a woman named Tina Moore, and that was one of 403 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 4: Eve's girlfriends. So they just were kind of on top 404 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 4: of each other that whole period. 405 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: Wow, So that's how you got to this story. 406 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, And really what I had meant to do. So 407 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 4: I was supposed to be writing a book for Scribner 408 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 4: on Bennington College class of nineteen eighty six, which is, 409 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 4: you know, Brady Sonelli's Dot A Churt Jonathan Latham. I 410 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 4: was prepared to do that. Evie dies, I see all 411 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 4: these letters, I really feel like I owe it to 412 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 4: Eve to get it right. And when I read these letters, 413 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 4: which were all kind of unsent letters, it was letters 414 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 4: she saved but never sent, so they really, you know, 415 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: like a diary basically, and I'd gotten things wrong, you 416 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 4: know when I was interviewing Eve over you know, for 417 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 4: a period of ten years, her brain was crumbling from 418 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 4: the Huntington's. She was also a book open and not forthcoming. 419 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 4: So there were things I had missed, and you know, 420 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 4: and really it was her emotional life that she had 421 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 4: kept from me. So these letters were still revelatory. But 422 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 4: my plan was to kind of write a long piece 423 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 4: for Vanity Fair on this letter Eve wrote Joan in 424 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 4: seventy two, which I did, stick that as in an 425 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 4: introduction and then just interspersed letters throughout, you know, sort 426 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 4: of have a revised you know, like a DVD extra version, right. 427 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: Right, you started out with something easy or what seemed 428 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: like it might be easy. 429 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly it. Like I was lying to my 430 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 4: you know how, both of these big projects. I thought 431 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 4: maybe I could do four to six weeks work and 432 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 4: in and out. But then it just hijacked my life. 433 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 4: And it's sort of was I was revising and kind 434 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 4: of totally rewriting, like rewriting from scratch of course, you know. 435 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 4: And at a certain point I realized I was writing 436 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 4: a shadow a shadow book on Joan Didion, you know, 437 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 4: So that's sort of how it happened. 438 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: What So that's where you got to Joan Didion. 439 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, And it started to seem to me that these 440 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 4: two women were kind of opposites who were also doubles, 441 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 4: and they were on the exact same scene and it 442 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 4: was kind of thrilling and like material for both of them. 443 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 4: Their approach was opposite, right, even the participants. She was 444 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 4: sleeping with everybody. I'm an Ertican, Harrison Ford, J. Morrison, 445 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 4: she was sleeping with everybody. She was doing every drug, 446 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 4: any drug that kind of came into her view she 447 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 4: was doing. So she was kind of that person on 448 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: the scene and Joan was she was like the participant, 449 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 4: and then Joan was just the observer, right married, you know, 450 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 4: just kind of off to the side and watching. And 451 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 4: Joan was sort of a craftsman or a crafts person 452 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 4: in her approach to writing, and Eve was improvisitory. They 453 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: just they just stroke me as and kind of each 454 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 4: got under the other's skin. I mean, so the letter 455 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 4: that he wrote writes Joan in nineteen seventy two. So 456 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 4: Eve's enraged because Joan, that's the pretext of the letter. 457 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 4: She wants to kind of chastise Joan for neglecting or 458 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 4: disregarding Virginia Wolf. Then she sort of goes on to 459 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 4: a piece Joan had just written for the New York 460 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 4: Times on the women's movement, and Joan really puts down 461 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 4: the women's movement, and. 462 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: She I'm shocked. I mean, the subtext here is that 463 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: Joan Didion is a secret conservative and she is equal 464 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: parts Ross do thodd and other things. 465 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 4: Well, I mean that's not wrong, that's right. 466 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: She's more complicated than that. But yes, go on, y. 467 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 4: It's more complicated. But yeah, I mean, you could put 468 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 4: it in those terms and be totally accurate. But I 469 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 4: think it was more like Eve also had her problem 470 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 4: with the women's movement. I think she didn't like its style, 471 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 4: you know, she just but she was like, I think 472 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 4: she was so enraged that Joan was saying it didn't 473 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 4: have a point. She was I think she felt that 474 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 4: Joanes sold out women to getting good with men, right, 475 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 4: like Joan wanted to be. 476 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: Right, which sounds that sounds absolutely one hundred percent As 477 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: a big Joan Diddion fan, that sounds one hundred percent right. 478 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 4: Just kind of is and it's not even like a 479 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 4: well Joan for it, because like Joane's born in thirty four, 480 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 4: and it's kind of like if you wanted to be 481 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 4: taken seriously as a writer, not as a woman's writer, 482 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 4: which was a way of kind of patriots Like. 483 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was a put down I know from 484 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: my mother. 485 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, you would know, you know better than anybody exactly 486 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 4: what kind of a put down it was. And it 487 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 4: was a way of kind of taking you out of 488 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 4: contention for you know, to be a big writer basically. 489 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 4: And I understand why Joan did what she did, but 490 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 4: you know, Eve felt that not only did Joan sell 491 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 4: out women to getting good with men, but that she 492 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 4: kind of sold out La to getting good with New York, 493 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 4: you know, so I think you know it was, but 494 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 4: she also totally admired Joan, and I think really admired 495 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 4: Joan's ability kind of to maneuver, you know. 496 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So explain to us what happens next. 497 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, technically Eve survives the seventies in the sense. 498 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: That she that's a great line. 499 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 4: Technically, I'm sorry to say so. She calls she has 500 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 4: this great term squalid over boogie. It's like when you're 501 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 4: fucking too much, when you're doing too many drugs, you 502 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 4: just fucked and drugged yourself out right, you're just what 503 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 4: And she really she really hit that in the late seventies. 504 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: So the best book she did comes out in seventy 505 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 4: seven called Slowdaspath Company. She does it with Kannop. It's 506 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 4: like everything comes together for her right. She's on exactly 507 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 4: the right drugs. She's with the exact right guy, All Roche, 508 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 4: who's kind of both who's who's not really straight, he's 509 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 4: kind of highly sexual with Herbert really prefers men, and 510 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 4: so he's kind of elusive in a way that's she likes, yeah, 511 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 4: and keeps her on her toes. She's got just the 512 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 4: right editor and Vicki Wilson at Kannop who kind of 513 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 4: takes this, Oh. 514 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, who's still there, right, or maybe she's retired now, 515 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: but she was there for. 516 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 3: A long time. 517 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 4: I can't believe you know that, Yes, that's exactly right. 518 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 4: She's just gone. But she took a very strong hand 519 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 4: with Eve and really helped Eva's structuring. Eva's no good 520 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 4: at structuring. Surprise, surprise, you know. And anyway, she's and 521 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 4: I somehow she was like using just the right amount 522 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 4: of coke to get her going, but not you know, 523 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 4: make her and then it all tips over in the 524 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 4: late seventies and she's it's just all too much, so 525 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 4: kind of to save herself, she's sort of by eighty two, 526 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 4: she writes two kind of not good novels. She sort 527 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 4: of loses faith, and she's kind of loses confidence and 528 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 4: in her form, right, she was writing novels, but they 529 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 4: were really they were in the form of short stories, 530 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 4: but they were really novels. She basically invented a form 531 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 4: to express herself and it was great. Then she tries 532 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: to be conventional and write a novel and they're just duds. 533 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 4: So at any rate, she's kind of she's exhausted herself 534 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 4: and she decides to get clean, and she never really 535 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 4: does good work again. So she technically survives the decade, 536 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 4: but really is a casualty of it. And Joan is 537 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 4: the one who kind of ends up writing. I mean 538 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 4: Slowda's Fast Company is I think as good as anything 539 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 4: Joan did Joan is the one who kind of takes 540 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 4: ownership of the Franklin Avenue scene when she writes White Album, 541 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 4: So he's kind of over after the seventies and Joan 542 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 4: very much is not. 543 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: And so then you start writing about Joan and where 544 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: Eve Babbitt does not have anyone in the world and 545 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: has forgotten to history, Joan Didion is an industrial complex 546 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: and has all different problems. So talk to me about 547 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: that well. 548 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 4: I mean, nobody manages a career better than Joan did 549 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 4: in Each My Monster, like in the history of American letters, 550 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 4: I mean, she just gets more and more, she gets 551 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 4: bigger and bigger and bigger. And I think there's a 552 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 4: really interesting kind of inflection point in two thousand. I 553 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 4: want to say two thousand or two thousand and one. 554 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 4: I think two thousand. There's a CNN interview and you 555 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 4: can find it on YouTube and Joan is getting interviewed 556 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 4: on some c SPAN show and it's right career retrospective, 557 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 4: and it's about what a big deal she is. And 558 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 4: there's a call in portion and Eve calls in. It's 559 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 4: unbelievable because Eves just survived the fire, but she's about 560 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 4: like in two thousand and one is when hunting takes 561 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 4: over and she didn't know what was coming. You know, 562 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 4: her father actually died of it, but her mother, because 563 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 4: Huntington's is genetic, you have a fifty percent chance the 564 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 4: moble brought the hospital or brought someone to call in 565 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 4: and lie to her two daughters. But the father died 566 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 4: of a tomor not Huntington's. I get why she did it, 567 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 4: you know, in a way like there's nothing they can 568 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 4: do well. But and I think that's partly why Eve 569 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 4: was being so self destructive in the late seventies, because 570 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 4: she could see what was happening to her father and 571 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 4: she was sure it was going to happen to her, 572 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 4: and it was. It was exactly so two thousand and one, 573 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 4: that's when the brain starts to crumble. So in two 574 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 4: thousand and one, of is of course when John Donne 575 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 4: will die and the marriage turns out to be much 576 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 4: more complicated than I ever would have guessed. One of 577 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,479 Speaker 4: the people I came to late in my research was 578 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 4: Noel Prmontel, who was jones kind of first lover and 579 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 4: first mentor in the late fifties. And he was a 580 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 4: sort of flashbuckling Southern guy from New Orleans, from kind 581 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 4: of a grand family. So I'm always in a white 582 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 4: suit and fought with everybody. I wrote for the Nation 583 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 4: and for Esquire, And he'd already kind of been in 584 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 4: the Marines and Iowajima. He was older, had a wife 585 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 4: and children, and already's book from the life and with 586 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: a total kind of hard drinker and woman eight sir, 587 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: and you know Joe, and both had overheels for him. 588 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 4: And he he's the guy who gets her into print, 589 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 4: like he gets her first byline her first novel, which 590 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 4: nobody is interested in. It gets turned down by a 591 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 4: dozen publishers and she's distraught. He bolways a guy named 592 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 4: Ivan Oblenski into publishing it even doesn't like the book, 593 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 4: but he's sort of hugely instrumental in her early career, 594 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 4: and she kind of had written him out of her 595 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 4: origin story and kind of the most interesting fact of 596 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 4: all to me. It was such a shock. You know. 597 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 4: He was ninety seven when I met him. I interviewed 598 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 4: him in his house in the country, and he had 599 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 4: told me that he finally kind of made her understand 600 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 4: he would never marry her and never give her children. 601 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 4: And she had a nervous breakdown, which she writes about, yes. 602 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, goodbye to all that, right. 603 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, And she obliquely kind of you know that there's 604 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 4: a kind of a I have a Hemingway ass figure 605 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 4: in the background who's causing her torment. 606 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: It's really unseat but yes. 607 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, very much on and said, but you can kind 608 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 4: of into it it and you can feel it in 609 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 4: her books, particularly in her novel, she always about Noel. 610 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 4: But he sees she's distressed and he wants to help, 611 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 4: so he says, marry this guy. And it's some guy. 612 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 4: It was a guy who was like an acolyte of his, 613 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 4: like just like a little puppy dob who used to 614 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 4: hang around him and worship him. And that was John 615 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 4: Gregory Dunn. And remember Noel said to me he had 616 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 4: no interest in her, She had no interest in him, 617 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 4: but she kind of just did what Noel said, And 618 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 4: I think it was because that was her kind of 619 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 4: way of marrying Noel. Noel was always staying with them 620 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: when he'd come to Los Angeles to do his Hollywood business, 621 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: and she would always go to him for advice when 622 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 4: there was trouble in the marriage with John, or when 623 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 4: she was having work trouble. He was like her husband, 624 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 4: you know, in so many ways. And you know, the 625 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 4: marriage with John, you know, it was upsetting. You know, 626 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 4: he was very hard drinking, he was violent. I just 627 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 4: would hear, I would hear about this crazy temper. And 628 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 4: I also heard that he was not you know a 629 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 4: lot of people had kind of told me he wasn't. 630 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 4: He was gay, right, yeah, at the very least bisexual. 631 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 4: So it was not an easy marriage. But he was 632 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 4: a wonderful editor for her and I you know, and 633 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 4: I remember Noel saying this to me. He said to me, 634 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 4: I'd edit Joan, but I wouldn't do it word by word. 635 00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: You know. 636 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 4: John would go over every line with her, every single lines. 637 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 4: I think that was huge for her to have somebody 638 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 4: that committed to her career, you know, partners in screenwriting, 639 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: and I mean, I think it was like a totally 640 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 4: successful marriage for what she wanted. It was great for 641 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 4: her career, but it was, you know, a complicated situation. 642 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: So interesting. Oh my god, this is such an incredible, 643 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: incredible story and also just so interesting. I am so 644 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: excited to read both these books. I'm going to read 645 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: them on vacation. 646 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 4: I'm quite excited what yours. Kara's telling you great things. 647 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: Oh, I have a book coming out in June. For 648 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: anyone who still can stand me. Thank you, thank you, 649 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: thank you, Loly oh Molli. 650 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 4: This was a blast. 651 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 652 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 653 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 654 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 655 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.