1 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:26,569 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, you picked up the phone. Very spontaneous. Do 2 00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:30,250 Speaker 1: you think I'm spontaneous? No, nothing spontaneous about you. I'm 3 00:00:30,250 --> 00:00:34,210 Speaker 1: pretty spontaneous. I live in Minnesota, Minnesota. 4 00:00:34,330 --> 00:00:38,569 Speaker 2: I got married. Oh, while I was at the shopping mill, 5 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:39,370 Speaker 2: I bought a parrot. 6 00:00:39,769 --> 00:00:40,129 Speaker 3: Yeah. 7 00:00:40,210 --> 00:00:40,970 Speaker 2: Oh wait one. 8 00:00:40,850 --> 00:00:43,890 Speaker 1: Second, chicken lever. 9 00:00:44,530 --> 00:00:46,130 Speaker 2: Oh did you hear that in the background? 10 00:00:46,409 --> 00:00:46,809 Speaker 3: Yeah? 11 00:00:46,930 --> 00:00:51,090 Speaker 2: What Jackie Cohen? Oh did you hear that? 12 00:00:51,650 --> 00:00:52,529 Speaker 4: Jackie Coin? 13 00:00:57,810 --> 00:01:00,970 Speaker 1: What she hung up on you? I know she did 14 00:01:01,010 --> 00:01:12,610 Speaker 1: imaginary parrot from Pushkin Industries. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this 15 00:01:13,290 --> 00:01:23,770 Speaker 1: is Heavyweight Today's episode. Deborah right after the break. 16 00:01:37,970 --> 00:01:40,210 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, is this Barbara? 17 00:01:41,330 --> 00:01:42,890 Speaker 3: No, this is Deborah. 18 00:01:44,130 --> 00:01:45,490 Speaker 2: How are you related to Barbara? 19 00:01:46,610 --> 00:01:48,290 Speaker 3: I don't know who Barbara is. 20 00:01:49,450 --> 00:01:52,930 Speaker 1: Although this might sound like a classic cheech and chong routine, 21 00:01:53,370 --> 00:01:57,370 Speaker 1: it's actually me phoning Debrah. Deborah, you should know, is 22 00:01:57,410 --> 00:02:00,570 Speaker 1: one hundred and two years old. Yet it is I 23 00:02:00,810 --> 00:02:04,690 Speaker 1: who is having the senior moment. Oh my, I'm so sorry. 24 00:02:04,770 --> 00:02:08,930 Speaker 1: For some reason, I think I thought your name was Barbara. 25 00:02:09,090 --> 00:02:12,250 Speaker 3: Hey, I've lived long enough I could take any name. 26 00:02:16,889 --> 00:02:20,490 Speaker 1: I'm phoning Deborah. Her name is Deborah because she made 27 00:02:20,530 --> 00:02:24,170 Speaker 1: a discovery recently that has turned her life on its head. 28 00:02:25,050 --> 00:02:27,650 Speaker 1: It all began with a phone call from her daughter Lee. 29 00:02:28,370 --> 00:02:34,290 Speaker 3: She called me several months ago and she said, Mom, 30 00:02:34,810 --> 00:02:38,290 Speaker 3: given your age, I'd like to help you clear out 31 00:02:38,930 --> 00:02:43,690 Speaker 3: your storage room. So I said fine, When are you coming? 32 00:02:44,050 --> 00:02:45,130 Speaker 3: She said? Now. 33 00:02:46,170 --> 00:02:49,049 Speaker 1: The storage room is a room in Deborah's Bronx apartment. 34 00:02:49,570 --> 00:02:53,290 Speaker 1: She affectionately calls it the snake pit. It's where expired 35 00:02:53,370 --> 00:02:57,370 Speaker 1: vitamins and broken kitchen appliances collecked well. Cleaning it out, 36 00:02:57,650 --> 00:02:59,930 Speaker 1: her daughter Lee saw something that caught her. 37 00:02:59,810 --> 00:03:04,850 Speaker 3: Eye, and she walked out of the storage room with 38 00:03:05,050 --> 00:03:07,570 Speaker 3: the cardboard box. 39 00:03:09,130 --> 00:03:12,370 Speaker 1: Written across the top of the box were Debrah's initials, 40 00:03:12,930 --> 00:03:16,530 Speaker 1: and beside those initials, underlined in black ink, were the 41 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:21,450 Speaker 1: words go through. When Debra lifted the lid, she uncovered 42 00:03:21,450 --> 00:03:24,930 Speaker 1: something she'd stashed away long ago and had never gone through. 43 00:03:26,010 --> 00:03:33,370 Speaker 3: Two hundred fifty six letters written to me when I 44 00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:35,610 Speaker 3: was twenty one. 45 00:03:35,970 --> 00:03:39,530 Speaker 1: The letters, tied up in ribboned bundles were from Deborah's 46 00:03:39,570 --> 00:03:42,810 Speaker 1: first love, a man named Jerry Robbins. 47 00:03:43,450 --> 00:03:56,370 Speaker 3: We were engaged to be married. He okay, I'm sorry. 48 00:03:56,610 --> 00:03:59,610 Speaker 1: Jerry was killed in World War Two on Christmas Eve 49 00:03:59,810 --> 00:04:00,730 Speaker 1: nineteen forty four. 50 00:04:01,890 --> 00:04:06,210 Speaker 3: My future was shredded as well as the man that 51 00:04:06,370 --> 00:04:07,370 Speaker 3: I loved. 52 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:11,010 Speaker 1: And had you forgotten about these letters? 53 00:04:12,650 --> 00:04:20,289 Speaker 3: I didn't forget. I just found his death so disturbing 54 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:28,210 Speaker 3: I couldn't take it. So I sequestered that aspect of 55 00:04:28,250 --> 00:04:33,490 Speaker 3: my prior life away and never looked at it again. 56 00:04:37,489 --> 00:04:43,250 Speaker 5: She has a really powerful ability to flip the switch. 57 00:04:43,289 --> 00:04:44,369 Speaker 2: As she calls it. 58 00:04:45,130 --> 00:04:46,610 Speaker 1: This is Deborah's daughter Lee. 59 00:04:47,250 --> 00:04:49,409 Speaker 5: Put it away, not think about it. 60 00:04:50,049 --> 00:04:53,129 Speaker 1: And that's just what Debra did. To escape the grief 61 00:04:53,169 --> 00:04:56,729 Speaker 1: of Jerry's death. She threw herself into graduate school, got 62 00:04:56,770 --> 00:05:00,169 Speaker 1: a master's degree in social work, and from there life 63 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:03,849 Speaker 1: just kept unspooling. She married a man named Irving, who 64 00:05:03,890 --> 00:05:06,929 Speaker 1: was an attorney and a good provider, and together they 65 00:05:07,049 --> 00:05:11,169 Speaker 1: raised three kids. All the while, through sixty four years 66 00:05:11,169 --> 00:05:15,210 Speaker 1: of marriage, through every move, every new chapter, Deborah kept 67 00:05:15,250 --> 00:05:27,569 Speaker 1: the box with its lid closed shut until recently, nearly 68 00:05:27,609 --> 00:05:30,650 Speaker 1: eighty years after Jerry's death and over a decade after 69 00:05:30,690 --> 00:05:33,929 Speaker 1: the death of her husband Irving, Deborah was finally ready 70 00:05:33,969 --> 00:05:36,289 Speaker 1: to open the box and start reading. 71 00:05:36,969 --> 00:05:47,370 Speaker 3: Every letter, every postcard, and every V mail email V mail. 72 00:05:47,929 --> 00:05:53,049 Speaker 3: The letter V as in victory right right. 73 00:05:53,849 --> 00:05:57,169 Speaker 1: Will you listen to me? V? Mail, as I only 74 00:05:57,250 --> 00:06:00,129 Speaker 1: later learned, was a method the government used to get 75 00:06:00,130 --> 00:06:04,210 Speaker 1: soldiers letters to their families. And as Deborah read these letters, 76 00:06:04,570 --> 00:06:05,810 Speaker 1: something began to happen. 77 00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:10,570 Speaker 3: I fell love with Jerry again. 78 00:06:15,369 --> 00:06:18,569 Speaker 1: Not only did the box contain Jerry's handwritten letters, but 79 00:06:18,650 --> 00:06:22,130 Speaker 1: also a number of his poems and short stories. Jerry, 80 00:06:22,169 --> 00:06:25,489 Speaker 1: Deborah tells me, was an aspiring writer with big dreams. 81 00:06:26,369 --> 00:06:33,409 Speaker 3: His absolute motivation was to write, write, and compose. If 82 00:06:33,450 --> 00:06:37,450 Speaker 3: he had a pencil or a pen in hand, he 83 00:06:37,849 --> 00:06:40,169 Speaker 3: seek out paper to write on. 84 00:06:41,409 --> 00:06:44,809 Speaker 1: The sheer volume of letters their depth and detail attest 85 00:06:44,890 --> 00:06:48,250 Speaker 1: to this, and each day, sometimes all through the day, 86 00:06:48,690 --> 00:06:53,129 Speaker 1: Deborah would read and reread Jerry's words, and as she did, 87 00:06:53,529 --> 00:06:56,209 Speaker 1: she felt him return to her. It was like time 88 00:06:56,330 --> 00:06:57,089 Speaker 1: had collapsed. 89 00:07:00,729 --> 00:07:05,089 Speaker 3: How can ae hundred and one year old woman whose 90 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:11,810 Speaker 3: hormones have long since shriveled fall in love again. 91 00:07:16,970 --> 00:07:20,010 Speaker 1: Debra's daughter Lee noticed the change that came over her mother, 92 00:07:20,410 --> 00:07:24,170 Speaker 1: how re energized she'd become, and Lee thought that was wonderful. 93 00:07:24,730 --> 00:07:25,770 Speaker 1: To a point. 94 00:07:26,050 --> 00:07:31,209 Speaker 5: There's a thin line, because she started slipping into what 95 00:07:31,250 --> 00:07:33,050 Speaker 5: we would call Jerry Land. 96 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:34,690 Speaker 1: Oh what is that? 97 00:07:34,690 --> 00:07:39,209 Speaker 5: That is? Not label it too much, but a kind 98 00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:43,330 Speaker 5: of overarching obsession with all things Jerry. 99 00:07:44,410 --> 00:07:48,929 Speaker 4: All she did was live in Jerry Land. 100 00:07:49,810 --> 00:07:52,250 Speaker 1: This is Debra's other daughter, Lauren. 101 00:07:52,489 --> 00:07:55,570 Speaker 6: And every time I called her up or would see her, 102 00:07:55,810 --> 00:07:58,809 Speaker 6: it would be Jerry said this, and Jerry said that. 103 00:07:59,890 --> 00:08:06,170 Speaker 5: She would spend all my conversations with her just talking 104 00:08:06,210 --> 00:08:06,930 Speaker 5: about Jerry. 105 00:08:07,730 --> 00:08:09,009 Speaker 1: It sounds a little bit of the way you just 106 00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:11,210 Speaker 1: describe it as like, you know, like when a teenager's 107 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:13,569 Speaker 1: in love. You know, yeah, they're just drawing like the 108 00:08:13,810 --> 00:08:17,530 Speaker 1: person's name and tarts, you know, in their notebook or something. 109 00:08:17,890 --> 00:08:21,410 Speaker 5: Yeah, you just can't help but talk about it all 110 00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:22,130 Speaker 5: the time. 111 00:08:23,130 --> 00:08:27,129 Speaker 1: Lauren says their mother stopped watching movies, reading books, attending 112 00:08:27,210 --> 00:08:28,929 Speaker 1: the classes she took online. 113 00:08:29,810 --> 00:08:34,450 Speaker 6: I was concerned about it. Lee was concerned about it. 114 00:08:35,090 --> 00:08:39,050 Speaker 6: We all kept saying, here, mom, here's a great book, 115 00:08:39,570 --> 00:08:44,210 Speaker 6: read this, watch this. Why don't you invite people over? 116 00:08:44,570 --> 00:08:49,250 Speaker 6: And it was truly like she was in a bubble. 117 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:58,370 Speaker 1: Also concerning to Lauren is how since the discovery of 118 00:08:58,370 --> 00:09:02,170 Speaker 1: the letters, Jerry has threatened to eclipse her late father Irving. 119 00:09:03,090 --> 00:09:06,490 Speaker 1: For proof, you need look no further than Deborah's living room. 120 00:09:06,770 --> 00:09:09,449 Speaker 1: On an entry table by the door is a photoph 121 00:09:09,530 --> 00:09:13,010 Speaker 1: of Irving. But beside her favorite chair is one of 122 00:09:13,090 --> 00:09:14,890 Speaker 1: Jerry sitting. 123 00:09:14,690 --> 00:09:18,090 Speaker 6: Right next to her, and my father is off to 124 00:09:18,210 --> 00:09:18,930 Speaker 6: the side. 125 00:09:19,250 --> 00:09:20,210 Speaker 4: What the hell? 126 00:09:22,650 --> 00:09:23,930 Speaker 1: How does that make you feel? 127 00:09:24,570 --> 00:09:29,170 Speaker 4: Weird? Strange? 128 00:09:29,970 --> 00:09:33,330 Speaker 1: Deborah, for her part, insists her feelings for Jerry have 129 00:09:33,450 --> 00:09:36,090 Speaker 1: no bearing on the love she feels for her late husband. 130 00:09:36,770 --> 00:09:39,570 Speaker 1: But this passionate side of Deborah is new to Lauren. 131 00:09:44,850 --> 00:09:49,690 Speaker 6: They always say, we become more of ourselves the older 132 00:09:49,850 --> 00:09:50,450 Speaker 6: we get. 133 00:09:50,850 --> 00:09:51,410 Speaker 2: Do you think so? 134 00:09:52,490 --> 00:09:54,450 Speaker 4: I think so, don't you. 135 00:09:56,210 --> 00:09:58,490 Speaker 1: I'd like to think so. Yeah. I mean it certainly 136 00:09:58,490 --> 00:10:00,770 Speaker 1: seems like with your mother. I mean she continues to grow, 137 00:10:00,850 --> 00:10:01,130 Speaker 1: you know. 138 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:02,770 Speaker 4: She does. 139 00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:08,570 Speaker 6: There's a great line I love to quote and it's 140 00:10:09,290 --> 00:10:16,410 Speaker 6: from Metallica, Metallica, the heavy metal Dads, and they one 141 00:10:16,450 --> 00:10:20,490 Speaker 6: of the lines is my lifestyle determines. 142 00:10:19,970 --> 00:10:26,090 Speaker 4: My death style. And I think it's a great line. 143 00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:31,450 Speaker 6: Like not she's not dying, but you know, I think 144 00:10:31,530 --> 00:10:38,730 Speaker 6: we just keep becoming more. Yeah, and oh there, I'm 145 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:41,250 Speaker 6: sorry for all these texts. 146 00:10:41,290 --> 00:10:44,410 Speaker 4: My husband just got nominated for two Emmys. 147 00:10:44,490 --> 00:10:46,210 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, that's fantastic. 148 00:10:47,410 --> 00:10:48,290 Speaker 4: Yeah. 149 00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:52,490 Speaker 1: As it happens, Lauren's husband is the award winning documentary 150 00:10:52,570 --> 00:10:57,610 Speaker 1: filmmaker Joe Berlinger. Among his work some kind of monster, 151 00:10:58,010 --> 00:11:01,970 Speaker 1: an exploration of Metallica's experience in group therapy. 152 00:11:02,570 --> 00:11:06,130 Speaker 6: He just got dominated in My whole family is like, Yay, 153 00:11:06,490 --> 00:11:07,730 Speaker 6: that's great, your grads. 154 00:11:09,410 --> 00:11:13,650 Speaker 1: Good for him, But you know, it's also good as good, 155 00:11:13,770 --> 00:11:17,570 Speaker 1: if not better than being nominated for TV's most prestigious award. 156 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:24,530 Speaker 1: Helping people. And right now I'm going to help Deborah 157 00:11:24,970 --> 00:11:27,850 Speaker 1: with something she's taken to calling her mandate. 158 00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:34,250 Speaker 3: When I was a daughter, I had an obligation to 159 00:11:34,330 --> 00:11:39,570 Speaker 3: my parents, as a student, to my teacher in my school, 160 00:11:39,850 --> 00:11:44,010 Speaker 3: as a wife and a mother to my family. But 161 00:11:44,450 --> 00:11:51,330 Speaker 3: now that I've lived this long, my mandate is to 162 00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:56,530 Speaker 3: do something with these amazing letters. 163 00:11:57,250 --> 00:12:00,690 Speaker 1: Deborah hopes to honor Jerry by giving his writing an audience. 164 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:04,530 Speaker 1: It occurs to me that I have an audience, and 165 00:12:04,570 --> 00:12:07,570 Speaker 1: perhaps if Deborah and I read through the letters together, 166 00:12:08,090 --> 00:12:11,210 Speaker 1: it would fulfill her man and allow her to move on. 167 00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:14,610 Speaker 1: I put the idea to Lee. Do you think like 168 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:19,130 Speaker 1: getting something out there into the world would allow her 169 00:12:19,170 --> 00:12:20,330 Speaker 1: to leave Jerry Land? 170 00:12:21,770 --> 00:12:22,010 Speaker 2: Yeah? 171 00:12:22,170 --> 00:12:27,890 Speaker 5: I do, because he'll always be twenty one. He'll always 172 00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:33,970 Speaker 5: be a writer who never got to live his potential. 173 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:41,170 Speaker 5: So there's this quality of stuckness or stasis getting his 174 00:12:41,370 --> 00:12:45,770 Speaker 5: work out there. It's almost like she gets to the. 175 00:12:46,010 --> 00:12:50,170 Speaker 3: End, can you come to my apartment? 176 00:12:51,690 --> 00:12:53,890 Speaker 1: Well, I'm in Minnesota. 177 00:12:55,530 --> 00:12:59,010 Speaker 3: I wouldn't fly out where you are, but if you 178 00:12:59,210 --> 00:13:04,090 Speaker 3: can come to my home, I would be journally grateful 179 00:13:05,530 --> 00:13:07,290 Speaker 3: for as long as I last. 180 00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:11,730 Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to see the letters, and 181 00:13:11,970 --> 00:13:14,690 Speaker 1: it would be uh, it would be really nice to 182 00:13:14,730 --> 00:13:15,610 Speaker 1: meet you in person. 183 00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:23,050 Speaker 3: Okay, mister Goldsting, So come up, yeah, said the old 184 00:13:23,250 --> 00:13:24,730 Speaker 3: lighty to the young man. 185 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:30,690 Speaker 1: And so it looks like this fifty six year old 186 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:34,330 Speaker 1: young man is heading off to New York because, like 187 00:13:34,410 --> 00:13:37,770 Speaker 1: the writing on the box says, maybe the only way 188 00:13:37,810 --> 00:13:44,050 Speaker 1: out is to go through. And speaking of going through, 189 00:13:44,570 --> 00:13:47,210 Speaker 1: it's time for you to grease up the wheels on 190 00:13:47,250 --> 00:14:10,290 Speaker 1: your shopping cart and go through some ads. Two hundred 191 00:14:10,450 --> 00:14:14,170 Speaker 1: and fifty six letters. It took several weeks for my 192 00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:17,210 Speaker 1: producer Phoebe and me to read them all. Many of 193 00:14:17,210 --> 00:14:20,530 Speaker 1: the letters were missing dates and locations, but we puzzled 194 00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:23,530 Speaker 1: our way through, doing our best to bring chronological order, 195 00:14:24,250 --> 00:14:27,370 Speaker 1: and as we did, a life emerged and a portrait 196 00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:30,330 Speaker 1: of the young man who lived it. Went through all 197 00:14:30,410 --> 00:14:32,930 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty six of the letters. 198 00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:36,970 Speaker 3: Oh boy, so you know Jerry. 199 00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:42,130 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So let's uh, why don't we just start 200 00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:43,610 Speaker 1: off by reading the first letter? 201 00:14:44,330 --> 00:14:45,370 Speaker 4: Here goes. 202 00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:52,570 Speaker 3: Dear deb finding myself with a few spare moments. 203 00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:55,770 Speaker 1: Jerry's first letters are from the spring of nineteen forty, 204 00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:58,290 Speaker 1: nearly four years before he enlisted. 205 00:14:58,530 --> 00:15:03,610 Speaker 3: My mother advised me that she doesn't mind my saying 206 00:15:04,130 --> 00:15:09,330 Speaker 3: in your house till all hours of the night. She 207 00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:14,930 Speaker 3: likes you quite a bit, which practically makes it unanimous. 208 00:15:18,850 --> 00:15:21,850 Speaker 1: Deborah and Jerry had been friends since their elementary school 209 00:15:21,930 --> 00:15:25,330 Speaker 1: days in Brooklyn, but their friendship was beginning to blossom 210 00:15:25,570 --> 00:15:30,050 Speaker 1: into something more. What were you guys doing until all 211 00:15:30,130 --> 00:15:31,970 Speaker 1: hours of the night? 212 00:15:32,930 --> 00:15:39,850 Speaker 3: Talking as passionate as it was, it was never consummated, 213 00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:47,290 Speaker 3: which is my regret. It is a regret, oh intensely so. 214 00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:49,970 Speaker 1: Deborah says she was waiting for marriage. 215 00:15:50,010 --> 00:15:58,170 Speaker 3: But we would have had a hot time together. I 216 00:15:58,250 --> 00:16:01,010 Speaker 3: forgot that I'm being cool. 217 00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:12,570 Speaker 1: Jerry over an hour away by subway, and before texting 218 00:16:12,730 --> 00:16:16,690 Speaker 1: emails and the prevalence of phone calls, weekend rendezvous were 219 00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:22,130 Speaker 1: planned out over letters. Jerry's writing is clever. In one missive, 220 00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:25,210 Speaker 1: he invites Deborah out to a show for New Year's Eve. 221 00:16:25,810 --> 00:16:28,330 Speaker 1: When she doesn't give him a straight answer, he sends 222 00:16:28,330 --> 00:16:31,770 Speaker 1: a follow up to help you make a decision, and 223 00:16:31,810 --> 00:16:34,770 Speaker 1: for your convenience, you will find on page four of 224 00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:39,050 Speaker 1: this letter a ballot. Just check one and mail within 225 00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:45,050 Speaker 1: the next week. The ballot shows two options, yes and yes. 226 00:16:49,170 --> 00:16:49,450 Speaker 2: Be it. 227 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:52,770 Speaker 1: In his letters or his short stories, Jerry had away 228 00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:56,810 Speaker 1: with a closing line. His fiction often showcased an ironic 229 00:16:56,890 --> 00:17:00,970 Speaker 1: reveal in the final sentence. In one story, the piecenake 230 00:17:01,050 --> 00:17:04,209 Speaker 1: babbling in the mental institution turns out to be a 231 00:17:04,210 --> 00:17:08,209 Speaker 1: former war commissioner. In another, the motorist who stops to 232 00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:11,730 Speaker 1: help a stranded world turns out to be an executioner 233 00:17:11,810 --> 00:17:14,129 Speaker 1: on his way to put the woman's son to death. 234 00:17:15,090 --> 00:17:18,530 Speaker 1: They were like Twilight Zone episodes. Almost twenty years before 235 00:17:18,570 --> 00:17:22,169 Speaker 1: the show went on the air, Jerry shared drafts of 236 00:17:22,209 --> 00:17:26,649 Speaker 1: these stories along with poems. Deborah appreciated his lyrical turns 237 00:17:26,689 --> 00:17:27,170 Speaker 1: of phrase. 238 00:17:28,330 --> 00:17:35,129 Speaker 3: I call them Jerry is instead of war, he says, 239 00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:47,169 Speaker 3: man made madness instead of bullet hot sperm of death. 240 00:17:48,409 --> 00:17:49,050 Speaker 4: How is that. 241 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:54,850 Speaker 3: Hot sperm of death? 242 00:17:56,409 --> 00:17:59,570 Speaker 1: I'm no poet, but it strikes me that the mighty 243 00:17:59,649 --> 00:18:04,049 Speaker 1: Metallica itself would be proud to name an album something 244 00:18:04,169 --> 00:18:15,850 Speaker 1: so in one's face. As a student at Columbia studying 245 00:18:15,889 --> 00:18:18,889 Speaker 1: to be a writer, Jerry was exempt from the draft, 246 00:18:19,449 --> 00:18:22,450 Speaker 1: but in the winter of nineteen forty three, he decided 247 00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:27,570 Speaker 1: to leave school and enlist. Aside from his parents, Deborah 248 00:18:27,609 --> 00:18:30,609 Speaker 1: was the first person he told. Since one of my 249 00:18:30,689 --> 00:18:34,369 Speaker 1: guiding rules, he wrote, has always been to thine own 250 00:18:34,449 --> 00:18:37,449 Speaker 1: self be true. I feel I can't stay out any 251 00:18:37,449 --> 00:18:42,250 Speaker 1: longer just paying lip service to my beliefs. From boot camp, 252 00:18:42,449 --> 00:18:46,570 Speaker 1: Jerry's letters arrived in Deborah's mailbox every day. His clever 253 00:18:46,649 --> 00:18:50,010 Speaker 1: short stories with the tidy twilight's own endings gave way 254 00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:54,810 Speaker 1: to reportage. Jerry detailed the eccentric characters he met, the 255 00:18:54,889 --> 00:18:57,889 Speaker 1: sergeant with a jaw like a rock, the chaplain who 256 00:18:57,929 --> 00:19:01,449 Speaker 1: was a secret lush, but he also shared his feelings. 257 00:19:02,090 --> 00:19:04,609 Speaker 1: In one letter, he described the first time he stood 258 00:19:04,649 --> 00:19:07,850 Speaker 1: before a mirror and saw himself in uniform, how it 259 00:19:07,889 --> 00:19:12,050 Speaker 1: gave him chills. As training became more grueling and the 260 00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:15,689 Speaker 1: thought of war more present and real, Jerry sought refuge 261 00:19:15,689 --> 00:19:19,609 Speaker 1: in Deborah, summoning her presence during lonely evenings at camp 262 00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:24,010 Speaker 1: or long marches in the heat. I didn't mind walking 263 00:19:24,169 --> 00:19:28,130 Speaker 1: because I wasn't alone. You were with me, walking by 264 00:19:28,169 --> 00:19:31,729 Speaker 1: my side and keeping me company All the time. We 265 00:19:31,810 --> 00:19:36,210 Speaker 1: spoke about a thousand things, my furlough, the invasion, what 266 00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:39,169 Speaker 1: we're going to do together when I come back. I 267 00:19:39,250 --> 00:19:42,369 Speaker 1: recited poetry to you, and when no one was watching, 268 00:19:42,730 --> 00:19:45,570 Speaker 1: I put my arms around you, held you close to me, 269 00:19:46,129 --> 00:19:58,649 Speaker 1: and whispered I love you into your ears. Jerry and 270 00:19:58,689 --> 00:20:01,929 Speaker 1: Deborah created a ritual which they enacted at ten o'clock 271 00:20:02,010 --> 00:20:06,330 Speaker 1: each evening. Jerry called it their nightly meeting. When the 272 00:20:06,369 --> 00:20:09,290 Speaker 1: hour struck, they dropped whatever they were doing, and in 273 00:20:09,330 --> 00:20:12,689 Speaker 1: the absence of a telephone, each would simply think of 274 00:20:12,770 --> 00:20:17,889 Speaker 1: the other. I close my eyes, Jerry rode. The world 275 00:20:17,970 --> 00:20:21,290 Speaker 1: fades away, and then it's now. 276 00:20:22,689 --> 00:20:28,409 Speaker 3: Now was one of our secret words. The only thing 277 00:20:28,570 --> 00:20:40,250 Speaker 3: that was real was here and now. Through the ebony 278 00:20:40,369 --> 00:20:45,490 Speaker 3: of night, I reach out for you, and from across 279 00:20:45,609 --> 00:20:52,290 Speaker 3: the wide expense of c you come, your eyes flashing, 280 00:20:52,409 --> 00:20:58,729 Speaker 3: your body warm and curved. This is the only place, 281 00:20:59,850 --> 00:21:15,129 Speaker 3: this is the only time here and now. 282 00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:17,009 Speaker 2: Do you want to read another letter? 283 00:21:17,209 --> 00:21:19,210 Speaker 1: This one will be a special one. 284 00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:25,369 Speaker 3: Sure, So here I go again, doing things cruelly and 285 00:21:25,609 --> 00:21:31,850 Speaker 3: probably very badly, Honey, I want to get engaged on 286 00:21:31,929 --> 00:21:39,090 Speaker 3: my furlough. I needn't add that I'm anxiously and eagerly 287 00:21:39,290 --> 00:21:40,810 Speaker 3: awaiting your reply. 288 00:21:41,889 --> 00:21:42,770 Speaker 4: Just say yes. 289 00:21:43,889 --> 00:21:47,889 Speaker 1: And here Deborah recites from memory her reply from over 290 00:21:47,970 --> 00:21:49,010 Speaker 1: eighty years ago. 291 00:21:49,889 --> 00:21:54,649 Speaker 3: My answer to you is yes, yes, Yes. 292 00:21:56,290 --> 00:21:59,649 Speaker 1: Back at bootcamp, time marched on, and in the fall 293 00:21:59,730 --> 00:22:03,730 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty four, Jerry received notice he was going 294 00:22:03,770 --> 00:22:07,490 Speaker 1: to be deployed. But before his deployment, he was granted 295 00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:11,010 Speaker 1: a final furlough, so he went home to see Deborah, 296 00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:14,410 Speaker 1: where he gave her a ring. Together they made plans 297 00:22:14,449 --> 00:22:17,570 Speaker 1: for the future, talked about everything that lay ahead once 298 00:22:17,609 --> 00:22:21,249 Speaker 1: he was home for good. Then, standing on the subway 299 00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:24,810 Speaker 1: platform in Washington Heights, they said their last goodbye. 300 00:22:25,570 --> 00:22:32,649 Speaker 3: I couldn't almost feel it. I remember kissing him and saying, 301 00:22:33,609 --> 00:22:39,129 Speaker 3: this isn't good. I don't know what's happening. And I 302 00:22:39,409 --> 00:22:46,769 Speaker 3: went into the train and I cried hysterically all the 303 00:22:46,850 --> 00:22:49,450 Speaker 3: way till the last stop. 304 00:22:49,490 --> 00:22:57,889 Speaker 1: On that train, Jerry's company was shipped off to England, 305 00:22:58,050 --> 00:23:01,169 Speaker 1: where American soldiers were preparing to join the fight in 306 00:23:01,209 --> 00:23:05,570 Speaker 1: mainland Europe. Unbeknownst to them, they were destined for one 307 00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:08,810 Speaker 1: of the deadliest campaigns of World War Two, the Battle 308 00:23:08,850 --> 00:23:13,249 Speaker 1: of the Bulge, but they never made it there. Jerry 309 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:15,889 Speaker 1: was among more than twenty two hundred men loaded onto 310 00:23:15,929 --> 00:23:19,449 Speaker 1: a troop ship on Christmas Eve. The ship was bound 311 00:23:19,449 --> 00:23:23,289 Speaker 1: for Cherbourg, France, just a short trip across the English Channel, 312 00:23:24,010 --> 00:23:26,929 Speaker 1: but hours later, just five miles from the entrance to 313 00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:31,850 Speaker 1: the harbor, a torpedo strock. A survivor described the slender 314 00:23:31,970 --> 00:23:34,850 Speaker 1: silver missile cutting through the water and colliding with the 315 00:23:34,889 --> 00:23:38,289 Speaker 1: ship as having shaken the vessel from stern to stern. 316 00:23:39,369 --> 00:23:42,489 Speaker 1: Hundreds of men in the lower decks were killed instantly 317 00:23:42,889 --> 00:23:46,690 Speaker 1: as the sea rushed into the massive gash. Those who 318 00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:49,570 Speaker 1: made it to the upper decks weren't much better off. 319 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:52,890 Speaker 1: They'd not been briefed on how to lower the lifeboats 320 00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:55,770 Speaker 1: or free the rafts that might have carried them to safety. 321 00:23:56,570 --> 00:23:58,929 Speaker 1: That they were told was the job of the crew. 322 00:23:59,889 --> 00:24:03,369 Speaker 1: But the crew, a Belgian outfit, spoke little English and 323 00:24:03,409 --> 00:24:06,850 Speaker 1: had little loyalty to the American troops aboard, And so 324 00:24:06,929 --> 00:24:10,369 Speaker 1: it happened that many crew members and in ship, while 325 00:24:10,409 --> 00:24:14,290 Speaker 1: the Americans aboard still had no idea they were slowly sinking. 326 00:24:15,609 --> 00:24:18,489 Speaker 1: Many soldiers were presumed to have gone down with the ship. 327 00:24:19,050 --> 00:24:23,050 Speaker 1: Others were lost to injuries in hypothermia. In the end, 328 00:24:23,409 --> 00:24:27,250 Speaker 1: seven hundred and sixty three men died. Jerry was one 329 00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:31,369 Speaker 1: of them. After six months of training, he saw one 330 00:24:31,530 --> 00:24:41,090 Speaker 1: day of war. The scale of death was so needless, 331 00:24:41,409 --> 00:24:45,090 Speaker 1: the failed emergency response so poor that for decades the 332 00:24:45,169 --> 00:24:49,529 Speaker 1: US government covered up the details. Survivors risked losing their 333 00:24:49,609 --> 00:24:53,289 Speaker 1: veteran benefits if they talked, and so when a family 334 00:24:53,409 --> 00:24:56,169 Speaker 1: was notified that they'd lost a loved one, only the 335 00:24:56,169 --> 00:24:57,649 Speaker 1: barest details were shared. 336 00:24:58,730 --> 00:25:04,930 Speaker 3: I was in Jerry's parents' home. His mother and father 337 00:25:05,570 --> 00:25:12,090 Speaker 3: were in the room. They handed me that telegram. 338 00:25:12,250 --> 00:25:15,050 Speaker 1: In the months before he died, looking towards the war 339 00:25:15,169 --> 00:25:19,010 Speaker 1: he was about to enter, Jerry wrote a poem, all 340 00:25:19,050 --> 00:25:22,850 Speaker 1: I ask for God in the brief second before eternity 341 00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:26,090 Speaker 1: swallows me up a glimpse of the world that is 342 00:25:26,129 --> 00:25:30,249 Speaker 1: to be where no man need make a prayer like mine? 343 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:33,570 Speaker 1: Then will I know there is meaning amidst this man 344 00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:36,369 Speaker 1: made madness. 345 00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:47,570 Speaker 3: In a certain way, I've never verbalized this, but in 346 00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:54,570 Speaker 3: a certain way. The discovery of those letters have turned 347 00:25:55,330 --> 00:26:03,130 Speaker 3: my life upside down, because I don't feel as happy 348 00:26:03,169 --> 00:26:06,090 Speaker 3: as I used to feel. I really don't. 349 00:26:07,169 --> 00:26:09,889 Speaker 1: It's the first time I've heard Debra say this. I 350 00:26:09,929 --> 00:26:13,409 Speaker 1: thought for Deborah, jerry Land was a happy escape, and 351 00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:17,449 Speaker 1: it seems it can be. But there's sadness there too. 352 00:26:17,850 --> 00:26:22,209 Speaker 1: After discovering the box, Deborah found herself having nightmares. The 353 00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:26,050 Speaker 1: letters abruptly end in nineteen forty four, so in place 354 00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:30,409 Speaker 1: of an actual ending, Deborah's mindcrafted its own. She dreamt 355 00:26:30,409 --> 00:26:33,530 Speaker 1: of Jerry in the water. She dreamt of him frozen 356 00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:36,330 Speaker 1: in the English Channel, and it was like a piece 357 00:26:36,369 --> 00:26:40,769 Speaker 1: of Deborah was stuck there with him. Recently, though, I 358 00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:49,689 Speaker 1: learned something that might help Deborah to work herself free. 359 00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:53,050 Speaker 1: A few months ago, a genealogist friend of the family 360 00:26:53,369 --> 00:26:57,569 Speaker 1: was doing some digging and turned up something surprising, something 361 00:26:57,570 --> 00:27:02,009 Speaker 1: that Debora never knew. Jerry's body wasn't in the English Channel, 362 00:27:02,409 --> 00:27:06,290 Speaker 1: nor was it buried somewhere in Europe. Jerry's body had 363 00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:10,409 Speaker 1: actually been repatriated back to America and interred in a 364 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:14,850 Speaker 1: Jewish cemetery called Mount Lebanon, And it turns out the 365 00:27:14,889 --> 00:27:21,169 Speaker 1: cemetery is not an hour's drive from Deborah's apartment. To 366 00:27:21,250 --> 00:27:24,410 Speaker 1: move on from jerry Land, maybe Deborah needs more than 367 00:27:24,530 --> 00:27:28,490 Speaker 1: just to revisit the past, or honor the past. Maybe 368 00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:32,009 Speaker 1: she needs to grieve it. Leaving the house at one 369 00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:35,130 Speaker 1: hundred and two is not so easily done, and Deborah 370 00:27:35,129 --> 00:27:38,169 Speaker 1: has yet to visit Jerry's grave. I ask if it 371 00:27:38,250 --> 00:27:40,210 Speaker 1: might be something we can do together. 372 00:27:40,689 --> 00:27:44,730 Speaker 3: Anything that brings me closer to him some game. 373 00:27:48,850 --> 00:28:12,810 Speaker 1: After the break Jerry. Just as I'm about to book 374 00:28:12,810 --> 00:28:16,169 Speaker 1: a minivan for our visit to the cemetery, I receive 375 00:28:16,209 --> 00:28:22,850 Speaker 1: an invitation to a video conference. Hello, Hey, sorry, I 376 00:28:22,929 --> 00:28:27,090 Speaker 1: had to I guess log in. Debra's Emmy Award winning 377 00:28:27,129 --> 00:28:30,489 Speaker 1: son in law, Joe Berlinger, also wants to come to 378 00:28:30,530 --> 00:28:35,050 Speaker 1: the cemetery to film for his own project about Debra. 379 00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:38,250 Speaker 4: I mean, we're all such huge fans of Heavyweight that 380 00:28:38,770 --> 00:28:40,930 Speaker 4: we're so excited that you're engaged. 381 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:47,690 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, right back at you. We you know, 382 00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:52,090 Speaker 1: we love what you do. So we have I a 383 00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:56,290 Speaker 1: pet hamster and my fanny pack. Allow me to explain 384 00:28:56,370 --> 00:28:59,650 Speaker 1: my lack of enthusiasm about Joe's participation. 385 00:29:00,090 --> 00:29:01,570 Speaker 2: You know, when I go out and I do something 386 00:29:01,610 --> 00:29:03,170 Speaker 2: for Netflix or whatever, it's a little The. 387 00:29:03,090 --> 00:29:06,850 Speaker 1: World of documentary is a hierarchy that breaks down thusly, 388 00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:14,010 Speaker 1: Netflix document entries the top floor, Penthouse Suite Audio documentaries 389 00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:19,209 Speaker 1: the underground parking garage where audio documentarians park their used 390 00:29:19,250 --> 00:29:23,170 Speaker 1: Ford fiestas. So as much as I love Joe's work, 391 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:28,969 Speaker 1: let's just say Metallica doesn't have two lead guitarists. Let's 392 00:29:29,090 --> 00:29:34,130 Speaker 1: just say it only has one. And according to the Internet, 393 00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:38,610 Speaker 1: his name is Kirkley Hammett. And on this documentary shoot, 394 00:29:39,290 --> 00:29:40,050 Speaker 1: I'm the Kirk. 395 00:29:40,730 --> 00:29:43,650 Speaker 2: It's not like we're going to be dueling interviewers or 396 00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:44,290 Speaker 2: anything like that. 397 00:29:44,330 --> 00:29:45,529 Speaker 7: I want to assure you of that. 398 00:29:45,690 --> 00:29:47,370 Speaker 1: I just want to be a fly on the wall 399 00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:51,730 Speaker 1: and observe what's happening. Canadian etiquette dictates my not saying no, 400 00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:56,810 Speaker 1: but I will be documenting you, Joe Berlinger documenting me 401 00:29:58,010 --> 00:30:09,170 Speaker 1: as I document Debra. On a sunny morning in October, 402 00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:12,690 Speaker 1: we all meet at Debra's Hello Hi. 403 00:30:13,170 --> 00:30:14,930 Speaker 3: Hi. 404 00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:20,290 Speaker 1: Debrah is seated by the window, wearing a colorful kerchief 405 00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:24,130 Speaker 1: around her neck. The sunlight illuminates her shoulder length white 406 00:30:24,130 --> 00:30:25,569 Speaker 1: hair in a puffy halo. 407 00:30:26,490 --> 00:30:29,730 Speaker 3: I'd like to say a few words, if that's okay. 408 00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:33,330 Speaker 1: Of course, Debrah has prepared a speech about Jerry that 409 00:30:33,410 --> 00:30:36,650 Speaker 1: she'd like to recite at his gravesite. In fact, a 410 00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:39,850 Speaker 1: few days earlier, she left a phone message saying it 411 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:43,450 Speaker 1: would be four minutes long, suggesting she'd already timed it 412 00:30:43,730 --> 00:30:47,209 Speaker 1: and practiced it just to get it all right. My 413 00:30:47,330 --> 00:30:50,210 Speaker 1: worry is that with a speech already committed to memory, 414 00:30:50,610 --> 00:30:54,170 Speaker 1: Deborah might have already decided how and how much she 415 00:30:54,290 --> 00:30:55,009 Speaker 1: wants to feel. 416 00:30:57,209 --> 00:30:57,810 Speaker 4: Yep, thank you. 417 00:30:58,650 --> 00:31:02,090 Speaker 1: We load into the van Deborah, her aid Hove, her 418 00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:06,809 Speaker 1: daughter Lee, and my producer Phoebe. Joe seats himself up front. 419 00:31:07,370 --> 00:31:12,490 Speaker 1: The papa ostensibly its so he can silently record Deborah 420 00:31:12,490 --> 00:31:19,729 Speaker 1: and me in the seats behind him silently Jonathan, what 421 00:31:19,770 --> 00:31:20,610 Speaker 1: are we doing today? 422 00:31:21,970 --> 00:31:22,210 Speaker 3: Well? 423 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:27,690 Speaker 1: Being questioned on one's own podcast is not unlike being 424 00:31:27,730 --> 00:31:31,450 Speaker 1: strapped into a baby seat in one's own fourteen seater van, 425 00:31:32,050 --> 00:31:36,529 Speaker 1: which might I add, one paid for. Rather than demanding 426 00:31:36,610 --> 00:31:40,330 Speaker 1: that everyone in the van pause their various recording devices 427 00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:43,250 Speaker 1: so I can throw a full on Kirkley hammet level 428 00:31:43,410 --> 00:31:48,970 Speaker 1: artistic tantrum, I instead do this. We are heading off 429 00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:58,250 Speaker 1: to the Queen's Cemetery. I obey my master master. That's 430 00:31:58,290 --> 00:32:10,370 Speaker 1: a Metallica reference. We ride through Washington Heights where Jerry 431 00:32:10,410 --> 00:32:13,570 Speaker 1: grew up, past the grounds of the World's Fair where 432 00:32:13,570 --> 00:32:16,610 Speaker 1: he and Deborah spent many a summer's afternoon. 433 00:32:16,690 --> 00:32:22,090 Speaker 3: That was the greatest states we ever had together. 434 00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:26,370 Speaker 1: They marveled over futuristic architecture, the debut of the first 435 00:32:26,370 --> 00:32:39,209 Speaker 1: television Portraits of a Hopeful Future. When we arrive at 436 00:32:39,209 --> 00:32:42,450 Speaker 1: the cemetery, we consult the map. The cemetery is so 437 00:32:42,610 --> 00:32:45,890 Speaker 1: large that it has streets, and the streets have names. 438 00:32:46,970 --> 00:32:52,170 Speaker 3: Jerry's not on Paradise Savenue, whis he actually is? 439 00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:53,570 Speaker 7: Just on he is? 440 00:32:54,890 --> 00:32:56,090 Speaker 3: How about that? 441 00:33:00,490 --> 00:33:03,610 Speaker 8: Okay, we're ready to go. 442 00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:08,890 Speaker 3: Oh okay, I got to know. 443 00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:12,650 Speaker 1: We all get out of the car. According to the map, 444 00:33:12,810 --> 00:33:16,249 Speaker 1: Jerry's grave isn't far. Their brousade wheels her towards the 445 00:33:16,250 --> 00:33:20,050 Speaker 1: isle of tombstones. Okay. 446 00:33:22,090 --> 00:33:27,010 Speaker 3: What's going through my mind now is a letter from 447 00:33:27,370 --> 00:33:32,810 Speaker 3: Jerry saying there's so many things I want to do 448 00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:34,450 Speaker 3: with you. 449 00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:38,890 Speaker 4: Oh my, oh there. 450 00:33:40,330 --> 00:33:47,530 Speaker 1: Oh and suddenly there it is the headstone beloved son 451 00:33:47,770 --> 00:33:50,810 Speaker 1: and dear brother, Private Jerome Robins. 452 00:33:51,850 --> 00:34:07,210 Speaker 8: Jerry, Oh God, do. 453 00:34:07,130 --> 00:34:21,489 Speaker 7: You want to do this here? Okay, can get cherry. 454 00:34:22,210 --> 00:34:27,610 Speaker 1: We brought along the cottage. If you wanted to say it, you. 455 00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:29,330 Speaker 4: Don't have to bring it to me. 456 00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:30,650 Speaker 3: I know it. 457 00:34:30,690 --> 00:34:33,650 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, love for you. 458 00:34:41,410 --> 00:34:45,330 Speaker 4: To say, sure, I love my career. 459 00:34:51,290 --> 00:34:54,050 Speaker 1: When she's finished with the prayer for the dead, Deborah 460 00:34:54,170 --> 00:34:59,570 Speaker 1: remains quiet. But then something happens, something she hadn't planned 461 00:34:59,610 --> 00:35:02,770 Speaker 1: for or prepared for. Taking in the sight of all 462 00:35:02,770 --> 00:35:07,650 Speaker 1: those tombstones, she just starts talking a. 463 00:35:10,050 --> 00:35:17,890 Speaker 3: What a waste? This one nineteen, this beloved one twenty two, 464 00:35:19,290 --> 00:35:26,930 Speaker 3: the other one twenty No more, No more wars, Please please, 465 00:35:27,250 --> 00:35:34,210 Speaker 3: no more wars. There are too many beautiful, healthy, young 466 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:41,690 Speaker 3: veterans who aligned up here and probably never had a 467 00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:52,770 Speaker 3: chance to live. What thieves warmongers are. Warmongers are thieves 468 00:35:52,930 --> 00:36:01,090 Speaker 3: of life that was never lived. Man made madness, man 469 00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:16,770 Speaker 3: made madness. Okay, I said, enough sare. 470 00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:29,490 Speaker 1: Deborah will later tell me that she surprised herself for 471 00:36:29,570 --> 00:36:33,290 Speaker 1: all the words she'd prepared. These words, she said, came 472 00:36:33,330 --> 00:36:37,610 Speaker 1: from the guts to get through her long life. Deborah 473 00:36:37,690 --> 00:36:40,570 Speaker 1: learned to box up the pain and store it neatly away. 474 00:36:41,370 --> 00:36:45,650 Speaker 1: But maybe if you live long enough, everything, even those 475 00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:49,969 Speaker 1: buried things, rise to the surface again, searching for light. 476 00:36:56,130 --> 00:37:01,450 Speaker 4: See one more step, I know. 477 00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:06,250 Speaker 1: We all load into the van and settle back in 478 00:37:06,370 --> 00:37:10,529 Speaker 1: for the journey back to the Bronx. How are you feeling. 479 00:37:12,970 --> 00:37:14,330 Speaker 4: I thought it would. 480 00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:21,930 Speaker 3: Be painful, and it wasn't painful. I got a refill 481 00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:30,570 Speaker 3: of energy. It was a little bit of steiling from 482 00:37:30,690 --> 00:37:44,050 Speaker 3: his strength. And that really came from being with Jerry. 483 00:37:41,770 --> 00:37:44,170 Speaker 1: A young man at a time when he needed love 484 00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:49,490 Speaker 1: most conjured a spectral companion to journey by his side. Now, 485 00:37:49,930 --> 00:37:53,250 Speaker 1: almost a century later, an old woman does the same. 486 00:37:54,170 --> 00:37:56,890 Speaker 1: It's the sort of ironic twist that could have flowed 487 00:37:56,930 --> 00:37:57,770 Speaker 1: from Jerry's pen. 488 00:38:04,610 --> 00:38:10,850 Speaker 3: Hey, Joe wants some nuts, aura banana? What about a banana? 489 00:38:11,770 --> 00:38:14,890 Speaker 1: Back in the van, Joe reminds Deborah that it's his daughter, 490 00:38:15,210 --> 00:38:17,730 Speaker 1: Deborah's granddaughter's thirty first birthday. 491 00:38:18,410 --> 00:38:19,569 Speaker 4: Oh that's right. 492 00:38:20,370 --> 00:38:22,250 Speaker 2: Should we call her? Huh? 493 00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:27,730 Speaker 1: Yes, When she gets home, Deborah will return some phone calls, 494 00:38:28,090 --> 00:38:31,330 Speaker 1: maybe take a nap. All the little things that make 495 00:38:31,410 --> 00:38:34,969 Speaker 1: up a life, all the little things that make up 496 00:38:35,050 --> 00:38:37,049 Speaker 1: to hear and now, happy. 497 00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:48,450 Speaker 3: Birthday, Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday to you. Off. 498 00:39:27,290 --> 00:39:36,810 Speaker 6: Now that the furnitures returning to its goodwill home, Now 499 00:39:36,890 --> 00:39:40,650 Speaker 6: that the last month's rent is skating with. 500 00:39:40,850 --> 00:39:47,650 Speaker 4: The damage to possum, take this moment to dissolve, if 501 00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:49,450 Speaker 4: we meant it, if we talk. 502 00:39:51,770 --> 00:39:59,010 Speaker 2: We felt around for five from things that accidentally talk. 503 00:40:03,370 --> 00:40:06,570 Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Phoebe Flanagan and 504 00:40:06,690 --> 00:40:10,890 Speaker 1: me Jonathan Goldstein. Our senior producer is Khalila holt Our. 505 00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:15,850 Speaker 1: Supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. 506 00:40:16,490 --> 00:40:20,330 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Chris Neary, Lucy Sullivan, Ben Nattihaffrey and 507 00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:25,010 Speaker 1: Greta Cone. Special thanks also to Daria O'Connor, Jack Eiferman, 508 00:40:25,250 --> 00:40:28,970 Speaker 1: and Alan Andrade. The author of the book Leopoldville A 509 00:40:29,090 --> 00:40:32,530 Speaker 1: Tragedy Too Long Secret, which is a great read if 510 00:40:32,570 --> 00:40:35,450 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about the sinking of Jerry's ship. 511 00:40:35,970 --> 00:40:38,930 Speaker 1: Debra is publishing a collection of Jerry's writing that will 512 00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:42,050 Speaker 1: soon be available on Amazon. You can find more information 513 00:40:42,130 --> 00:40:45,969 Speaker 1: about the book at waitformeworld dot com. Her daughter Lee 514 00:40:46,130 --> 00:40:48,690 Speaker 1: has been working on a screenplay about Debra and Jerry. 515 00:40:48,930 --> 00:40:52,010 Speaker 1: She's hosting a live read of the script on January 516 00:40:52,130 --> 00:40:56,730 Speaker 1: twentieth at Jazz Forum in Tarrytown, New York. As for Joe, 517 00:40:56,970 --> 00:41:00,690 Speaker 1: he has two Netflix documentaries coming out early next year. 518 00:41:01,210 --> 00:41:04,610 Speaker 1: Emmamonger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, 519 00:41:04,730 --> 00:41:08,610 Speaker 1: John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord and Emma Munger. 520 00:41:09,090 --> 00:41:12,570 Speaker 1: Additional scoring by Chris Zabriski. Our theme song is by 521 00:41:12,610 --> 00:41:16,890 Speaker 1: the Weaker Than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. This is the 522 00:41:17,010 --> 00:41:19,250 Speaker 1: end of our season, the final episode, but we'll be 523 00:41:19,330 --> 00:41:21,970 Speaker 1: back in the spring with some more fun stuff, So 524 00:41:22,210 --> 00:41:24,610 Speaker 1: keep an ear out and we've got a new season 525 00:41:24,610 --> 00:41:27,010 Speaker 1: coming your way next fall. So if you have a 526 00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:30,810 Speaker 1: story for us, don't be withholding okay, email us at 527 00:41:30,810 --> 00:41:35,250 Speaker 1: Heavyweight at Pushkin dot FM. Happy holidays to all, and 528 00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:39,410 Speaker 1: thank you for your continued support and listenership. I'm Jonathan 529 00:41:39,450 --> 00:41:46,010 Speaker 1: Goldstein Tata Chow. For now adieu. Don't use that stuff 530 00:41:46,050 --> 00:41:48,650 Speaker 1: at the end, but you could put that part in. 531 00:41:48,690 --> 00:41:50,090 Speaker 1: You could part You could put in the part of 532 00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:53,170 Speaker 1: me saying don't use that stuff at the end, and 533 00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:54,770 Speaker 1: then you can put in the part where I'm saying 534 00:41:54,810 --> 00:42:22,890 Speaker 1: don't use this stuff. Okay. It'll be fun