1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hi, I 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: am so thrilled to be joining you with a fantastic 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: interview with professor of history at Cambridge University David Woodman, 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: whose new book The First King of England talks about 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: I would say the very uncelebrated, really mostly unknown history 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: of the early medieval king Ethelsten in England who united 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: the kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, Northumberland, East Anglia. Am I 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: missing anything? 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: No, that's That's exactly what he did. And you're absolutely right, Danny. 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: He's very little known, and you know, I hope that 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: he gets better known in the in the years that come. 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: So just to dive right in, you call the year 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: nine hundred and twenty seven the birth of England. Can 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about why you think that is? 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, So Ethelstein first became king in the 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: year nine twenty four and he had a bit of 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: a struggle to cement his position on the throne. There 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 2: was various opposition to him, a bit of hostility from Winchester, 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: which was the sort of heart of West Saxon politics 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: in Wessex, and only a few years later in nine 22 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 2: two seven, he becomes the first king of the West 23 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 2: Saxon line ever to have brought together all of the 24 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: formerly independent kingdoms that you mentioned into one and creates 25 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 2: the Kingdom of the English for the first time. Now, 26 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 2: what specifically happens in ninety seven is that there had 27 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: been a Viking king, a man called Sitrich, who had 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: been ruling in York in the southern part of Northumbria 29 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: in the years that preceded this moment. But he dies 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: in ninety seven, and this gives Athelstan an opportunity to 31 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: march northwards, take York in Northumbria under his control and 32 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: cements rule there. It's an extraordinary moment and for me, 33 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: the year ninety seven should be one of the most 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: memorable dates in English history. 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: And so after he sort of takes this opportunity in York, 36 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: he'll go further north get the submission of kings from 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: Welsh charitor. Worry is the King of the Scots a 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: few other kingdoms. Is he contemporaneously calling himself the King 39 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: of England. 40 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. So after he takes York, he marches 41 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: further north. He goes to a place called amont Bridge, 42 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: which is just south of modern Penrith. Here where in 43 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: the northwest of modern England, and an amazing ceremony takes 44 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: place where various kings from Wales, a king from Scotland, 45 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: and a ruler from Northumbria they all agree to recognize 46 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: the superiority of Athelstan that day. And it's we think 47 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: it's a very carefully choreographed occasion. It takes place in 48 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: this area aimon Bridge, which is topographically significant. There are 49 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: ancient sites there. There's a Roman fort called Bricarvon, There's 50 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: various ancient henges there. So it's a landscape of authority 51 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: that Athelstan is during from. And yes, almost immediately after 52 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: this moment in ninety seventy, very quickly calls himself the 53 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: King of the English, the Rex Anglorum in Latin. Amazingly, 54 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: he has a poet who travels with him in his 55 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: retinue to aimont Bridge, and he assigns the poet this 56 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: job of writing. This wonderful poet him back to celebrate 57 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: what was happening in ninety seven, and we get this 58 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: these wonderful verses saying you know that Athelstan lives glorious 59 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: through his deeds because he's made Saxonia for the first time, 60 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: and bi Saxonia the poet means England. And what's really interesting, Dane, 61 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: is we don't actually have the word for England at 62 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: this moment. It's only first used in the early eleventh centuries, 63 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: so a bit later. Basically, we're getting to grips with 64 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: very new political concepts, new ideas of one people. So 65 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: it's really the beginning of all of this. 66 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: Stuff, and we're celebrating the eleven hundredth anniversary. I mean, 67 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: we just celebrated it in September, right in nine hundred 68 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: and twenty five. 69 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned, he first became king in ninety four, 70 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: he wasn't actually formally crowned king until the fourth of 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: September nine two two five, and that sort of delay 72 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: speaks to the difficulty he had in establishing himself in 73 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: the first place. And you're absolutely right. Just the other 74 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: week it was the eleven hundredth anniversary of his coronation. 75 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: There were wonderful celebrations in Kingston. Hundreds of people gathered. 76 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: There was even the naming of a train in Athol 77 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: stand's honor. So it's fantastic to think of a train 78 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: going down the National rail network. 79 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: Something for poets to write about now, exactly. 80 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: Something for poets to write about now. So it was 81 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: a fantastic occasion. They even brewed a special Athelstan beer 82 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: for the day as well. And we're gearing up now 83 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: for in two years time the eleven hundred sorry anniversary 84 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: of England's birth in twenty twenty seven, So that should 85 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: be a momentous anniversary for us to prepare for. 86 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: I want to ask you, I feel like, from an 87 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: outsider's perspective, the year that gets all the credit is 88 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: ten sixty six. And even in terms of early medieval kings, 89 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: rather Alfred the Great and ethel Read the Unready seemed 90 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: to be more names that lay people might know. Why 91 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: do you think that ethel Stan isn't really in the 92 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: public consciousness very much? 93 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think poor old 94 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: Athelstan didn't have very good pr basically at his court. 95 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 2: His grandfather, Alfred the Great, just as you say, Dana, 96 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: was much more famous, and Alfred was fortunate in that 97 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: he had a contemporary biographer, a Welsh cleric named who 98 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: was writing a biographical account of his life. He was 99 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: employed by Alfred to paint a good picture of Alfred, 100 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: and that survived, and that cemented the good reputation that 101 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: Alfred had. Now, if Athelstan ever had such a person, 102 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: you know, we don't have the text that survive. 103 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: The poet wasn't good enough. 104 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: The poet wasn't good enough. You know. It's a relatively 105 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: short poem when compared to the text of Assa. So 106 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: I think Athelstein has suffered in that sense, definitely in 107 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: historiographical terms. And the phenomenon of ten sixty six that 108 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: you mentioned is really interesting to me. I mean, I 109 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: did wonder a bit when writing the book, you know, 110 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: does it say something about the sort of self deprecating 111 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: attitude of the Brits that we sort of think about 112 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: our history as beginning with a big defeat rather than 113 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: this formation of the English Kingdom in the first place. 114 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: It's quite interesting that that's what we think about, and 115 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: that's where history kind of begins for us. I think 116 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 2: he's a bit of a victim of historiography in various ways. 117 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: But after Athelstan dies, England doesn't stay united, right. 118 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: Yes, And this is a big aspect of Atholestan's reign. 119 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: So seventy brings it all together for the first time, 120 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: and we can only imagine the challenges that would have 121 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: confronted him after he'd done this for the first time. 122 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: Lots of people who would have tried to overthrow him. 123 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: They would have been resentful of the authority and the 124 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: power that he achieved. We know this because in nine 125 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: three seven, for example, there was the famous Battle of Brunnenburg, 126 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: where a Viking coalition came together and tried to overthrow him. 127 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 2: And there's been all sorts of debates about where that 128 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: battle took place, but a major encounter in his reign. 129 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: And then, yes, only a couple of years later, he 130 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: dies in nine three nine. We don't know anything about 131 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: the circumstances in which he died. And then the Kingdom 132 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: of the English that he had built it sort of fragments. 133 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 2: A Viking named Olaf Gudfredson comes over from Dublin and 134 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: he's able to take control in York once more. So 135 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: York is ceded to Viking authority once again in nine 136 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: and three nine. So yes, it breaks down, and I 137 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: think it speaks to I guess just how successful he 138 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 2: had been as an individual. It just shows that so 139 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: much rested on his shoulders. He must have been, I think, 140 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: a very ruthless person, a very able politician to do 141 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: all these things, and certainly in martial terms, very very powerful. 142 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: But you know, what makes a good king is being 143 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: a good king for the moment. We had a conversation 144 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: with our friend, the brilliant historian Dan Jones about Henry 145 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: the Fifth, and he made the point that what made 146 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: Henry the fifth such an excellent king as he was 147 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: the right king for the time during which he lived. 148 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: And I think we can probably say the same thing 149 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: about Ethelstan. 150 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's another really good point. I mean, I think 151 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: that if we think about his lineage, the way in 152 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: which he had been brought up, he would have seen 153 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: the example of his grandfather Alfred the Great, whose reign 154 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: was beset by Viking raids. It was actually Alfred who 155 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: recognized that in the face of these external attacks of Vikings, 156 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: it was really important that the English kingdoms, as much 157 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: as possible, were internally joined together, if you like. So, 158 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: under Alfred we get something called the Kingdom of the 159 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: Anglo Saxons, which is adjoining together of Wessex and mercy 160 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 2: a broadly speaking, and also under Alfred we get the 161 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: idea of the English coming through in various texts. Alfred 162 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: begins to talk about what the English people are and 163 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: he uses the Old English word angel kuhn to describe this. 164 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: So I think that Ethelstan, sorry, is really taking these 165 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: ideas that have been formed and were nascent in Alfred's 166 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: court and drives them forward. So he's absolutely a man 167 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: of the moment. He probably saw the merits in that 168 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: in warding off future Viking attacks. 169 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: I hope I'm not mixing up his early medieval figures 170 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: with similar names. But was it Alfred the Great who 171 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: was able to marry his daughter ethel Flood diplomatically and 172 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: sort of unite kingdoms? 173 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: Exactly right? 174 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: Yes, Do we know if ethel Stan was able to 175 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: conquer territory diplomatically or do we assume it was more 176 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: through military force. 177 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: I think it's probably a mix, is the answer. So 178 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: going back to your points by ethel Flaggs, I mean, 179 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 2: she is a fascinating character in her own right. It's 180 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: very unusual in the early medieval period that the women 181 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 2: are given prominence in our sources, and she does we 182 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: have a whole set of animals. 183 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: She's a personal favorite. 184 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean she's such an interesting character. 185 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: She's deserving of a biography in her own right. And 186 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: Tom Holland has written a biography of Ethel Flood. She's 187 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: a fascinating, fascinating person, daughter of Alfred and sent to 188 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: Mercier and is able to join Wessex and Mercy together 189 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: or help in that process. And we think that actually 190 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: Adelestan was sent to her court as a child to 191 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: be brought up there, so she would have been a 192 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 2: very important example for Athelstan of you know, what it 193 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: was to be successful and strong leader. And I think Adelestan, 194 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: you know, he definitely would have succeeded or been successful 195 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: by combining both negotiation and political alliances that he was 196 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: making in negotiated terms, but also with Marshall's skill. I 197 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 2: think it would have been both of those things that 198 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: would have enabled his success. 199 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,359 Speaker 1: Do we know if he had any sort of legacy 200 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: on the continent in Europe at the time or was 201 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: he more of a domestic ruler. 202 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is another extraordinary aspect of his reign. 203 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: So as I mentioned, he becomes king in the first place, 204 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: in quite difficult circumstances, creates England very quickly in ninety seven, 205 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: and connections between English kingdoms or other and Europe have 206 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: been long standing by these points, but we've never before 207 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: had a monarch who has a kind of concerted foreign policy. 208 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: And it becomes very clear that Athelstan does. His father, 209 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: who was a man called Edward the Elder, actually married 210 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: three times in total, and that meant that Athelstan had 211 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: quite a large number of half brothers and half sisters. 212 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: Dangerous when you're trying to consolidate power. 213 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: Very dangerous. Yeah, it was dangerous to Atholstan, and there 214 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: are indications that some of his half brothers posed a 215 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: threat to his rulin and in fact, at the beginning 216 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: we think he shared rule with a half brother called Elfweyarde. 217 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: But one of the things he does strategically is he 218 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: seems to arrange a number of key marriage alliances between 219 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: some of his half sisters and contemporary rulers in Europe. 220 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 2: So places like West Frankier, East Frankier and Bergen. He 221 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: marries these sisters into these royal houses and he sets 222 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: himself up has been a key player on the European 223 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 2: stage as well. 224 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: You mentioned before that sort of in contrast to Alfred 225 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: the Great, there was no survive contemporary biography of Ethelstan, 226 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: and so as a historian, how do you approach your research. 227 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the I guess frustrations but also 228 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: the joys in a way of doing this kind of 229 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: work that there are so many gaps in our records 230 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: that you sort of have to be quite imaginative and 231 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 2: trying to overcome those gaps, you know, and trying to 232 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: understand how you can piece together the life of an 233 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: early medieval monarch like cattle Stan. I mean a big 234 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: challenge when sitting down to write a biography of Athelstan 235 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: is that you can't even do it chronologically because there 236 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: are just so many gaps in our records, so you 237 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: have to do it thematically. But actually, one thing that 238 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: we're very fortunate about with Athlestan is that we have 239 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: a whole set of contemporary royal documents, so land grants 240 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: known as royal diplomas that he was making, and a 241 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 2: set of law codes, and in fact a whole set 242 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 2: of very interesting coins, thousands of coins in his name, 243 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: which means that we can recreated a lot about his 244 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: royal ambition, his royal policies. These documents take us right 245 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: to the center of the royal assembly, you know, all 246 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: the things that are going on at the center of politics. 247 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 2: So really that's the place to go on, I think 248 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: when we're thinking about Athelstan, we also have an early 249 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 2: twelfth century text written by one of the greatest Anglo 250 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: Norman historians, a man called William of Malmsbury, who includes 251 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: probably the longest narrative account of Rattlestan's life. And the 252 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: problem is that because of the sort of two hundred 253 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: year gap between when William was writing and when Athelstan live, 254 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: we don't always know just how much we can trust 255 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: what William was saying and where was he getting his 256 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: information from. So again you have to be a bit 257 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: cautious when using those details. But we can make sort 258 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: of cautious progress when looking at. 259 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: His text, and because you're basing it sort of on 260 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: these sources, these legal documents, these coins. You mentioned that 261 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: by necessity you imagine that Ethelstan was quite a ruthless person. 262 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: What else have you been able to glean about his character? 263 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if you're thinking about the basics of what 264 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: did he look like, what did he like to eat? 265 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: You know, what kind of person was he? I mean, 266 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: we simply don't know. We just don't have those details 267 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: from us surviving contemporary sources. We do have an image 268 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: of him in a manuscript, an early time century manuscript 269 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: in Cambridge in the Parker Library of Corpus Christi College. 270 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: It's an extraordinary image of him with his head bowed 271 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: looking at a manuscript in front of Saint Cuthbert. We 272 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 2: don't know whether he's giving it to Saint Cuthbert or 273 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: he's trying to show that someone who's in favor of 274 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: Saint Cuthbert or a learned king. What's the exact message here? 275 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: And one of the ways in which it's very interesting 276 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: is that it's the earliest surviving portrait of any English monarch. 277 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: But does it show the real Athelstan We just don't know. 278 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 2: But another aspect to Ethelestan that's really really important is 279 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 2: that he was a keen patron and sponsor of learning 280 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: too of religion, and there's lots of evidence to the 281 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: fact that he was encouraging scholars from across Europe to 282 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: come to this court and to exchange ideas and favored 283 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: progress and learning in various forms. 284 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: What do you think Ethelstan's influence today is, because obviously 285 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: the Kingdom of England didn't stay united, it fell apart 286 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: after his death, it comes back together again. But do 287 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: you think there's a line we can draw from Ethelstan 288 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: too today? 289 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: I think it's very hard. Sometimes I'm very warey of 290 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: sort of rowing a line from so far back to 291 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: directly to today. But for me, I mean Atholestan is 292 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: England's founding father. That's really very important. And yes things 293 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: broke down when he died, but he was the kind 294 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: of architect of it all, if you see what I mean. 295 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: He was the person who had the idea that the 296 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: blueprint for it and made it a vague reality in 297 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: the early tenth century, and certainly during his reign it 298 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: was a reality to varying degrees. And you know, it's 299 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: not like he managed to create this one, you know, 300 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: homogeneous place overnight. That would have been different amounts of 301 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: people buying into it depending on where they lived, and 302 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: all sorts of differences of belief and language and all 303 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: sorts of things. But I think in terms of the 304 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,479 Speaker 2: blueprint and the architecture of what England could be Athelstan 305 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: really should be thought of as our founding figure. 306 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: When did you first become interested in Ethelstan? 307 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: Actually as an undergraduate student twenty odd years ago. I mean, 308 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: I remember going up to study history and one of 309 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: the first essays I did was on Athelstan. I was 310 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: only dimly aware of his name at that point, and 311 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: there was no modern biography of him then. Now I 312 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: was amazed that when I read about it him all 313 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: these achievements, all these things that he'd done, and I 314 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: hadn't known about him. Having grown up in the UK 315 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: through the UK schooling system, I just hadn't found out 316 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: about him. So that was when I first found out 317 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: about Applestan and became fascinated by him ever since. 318 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: What made you decide at this point to write the biography. 319 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: I've worked on various aspects of Fatholstan's reign over the 320 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: years academically, and I really have a close attachment to 321 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: his royal documents as diplomas that we mentioned earlier. They're 322 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: so difficult in terms of the way that they're written. 323 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: So they're written in very florid and learned Latin by 324 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: a royal scribe is known by the title Appolestan a. 325 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: And these documents emerge just at the moment that he 326 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: brings England together for the first time in nine two seven. 327 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: So in the wake of that political achievement, it's very 328 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: clear that he's deploying this royal scribe to try and 329 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: celebrate in literary terms what he's done in political terms. 330 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: And it seemed to me that these documents were unlike 331 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: anything else else from the early medieval period. There's nothing 332 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: like them before and nothing like them that comes afterwards. 333 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: And so I became fascinated by the style of Latin, 334 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: the rhyme, the alliteration, the chiasmus, the use of new 335 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: words that he invents. You know, how did this person 336 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: do it? It seemed to me he was a genius. Actually, 337 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,359 Speaker 2: so for me, the way in was through these royal documents, 338 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: because they were so taking us right to the heart 339 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: of the Royal Assembly. And you know, you can imagine 340 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: Attlestan at the end of the Royal diplomas. There are 341 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: these long lists of witnesses, people who were present at 342 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: the meeting of the Royal Assembly where these documents would 343 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: have been read out, and you can imagine the effect 344 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: it would have had to hear this incredible Latin read 345 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: out by the King or one of his advisors to 346 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: those assembled, and the witness list they contained names of 347 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: people from all over the English Kingdom for the first time, 348 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: so not just people from Wessex and Mercia, but we 349 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: get these wonderful you know, these wacky old Norse names 350 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: from Northumbria, Welsh kings, Scottish kings that are all there. 351 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: He's even able to wield a degree of authority over 352 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: these British kings as well, and they all would have 353 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: heard this amazing Latin. So that was the way in 354 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: for me. I love these documents. 355 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: It's a very cinematic scene too, what. 356 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: These gatherings would have been like in reality. At the 357 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: end of these diplomas, we have some seventy to eighteen 358 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: names listed. If you imagine that all of these people 359 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: had their own retinues traveling with them across Britain, there's 360 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: probably four or five hundred people present at these occasions. 361 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: I mean, they must have been extraordinary gatherings. They moved around, 362 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: mainly in the southwest in Wessex, and yes, how did 363 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: they work. I mean, just looking at the witnesses, they 364 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: sort of suggest to you a degree of sort of 365 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,719 Speaker 2: democracy is obviously not the right word, but that kind 366 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 2: of thing, a degree of discussion and politics going on. 367 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: But of course Applestan had the last word. He was 368 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: the person in charge of all of this. But yeah, 369 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: they really bring to life, you know, the way in 370 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: which these early English kingdoms were governed. 371 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: Did Ethelstan have any direct errors? 372 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: So one of the very remarkable features about Athelestan's reign 373 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: is that he didn't marry. There's no record of him 374 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: marrying during his lifetime from contemporary sources, and we only 375 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: have one reference to a potential daughter, but we think 376 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: it's an erroneous reference from a late text from me 377 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: ly they just got it wrong because the person names 378 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 2: that's the same name as one of his sisters. We 379 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: think the early author just mistook a sister for a daughter. 380 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: So he didn't have any direct heirs. So when he 381 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: dies in ninetenty nine, the throne passes to Tarf brother Edmund, 382 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: and one theory, which is written by the early twelfth 383 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: century author William of Malmesbury, is that he deliberately didn't 384 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: married because it would have caused more complexity in the 385 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: succession that if he'd produced his own heirs, there could 386 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: have been more challenges to who succeeded afterwards, So that's 387 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: one theory. 388 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: Was there not sort of an established notion that the 389 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: child of the current heir would become the next king. 390 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: So there was no strict rule of primogeniture at this point. 391 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 2: There was a broad understanding that somebody of royal blood 392 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 2: would succeed, and the old English term that sources use 393 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: for that is someone who is an atheling, so someone 394 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: who was literally thrown worthy. But the reality was that 395 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: when a king died, you know, everything was up for grabs, 396 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: and it depended on all sorts of things like you know, 397 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: military power, status, but also who had the backing of 398 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 2: the Royal Assembly at that moment, so it was very 399 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 2: much up for grabs. Son had experienced that himself, as 400 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: I mentioned at the beginning, when his half brother Alfreard 401 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: seems to have ruled alongside him at least for a 402 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 2: small amount of time. 403 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: That's fascinating to me because in a modern sense, I 404 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: think we have this very modern idea of legacy in 405 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to pass on your legacy to a child. 406 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: Where Ethelstan was so driven to unite these kingdoms under 407 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: one rule, and yet he didn't really abide by that 408 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: contemporary notion that he would pass it on to his 409 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: own dynasty. 410 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point and it stands a little 411 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: bit in contrast with if I think about his grandfather Alfred. 412 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: Remarkable feature of Alpha's ren is that we have his 413 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: will surviving, so we actually have what he wrote down 414 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 2: what he wanted to happen after he died. It doesn't 415 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: say in explicit terms to whom he wanted the throne 416 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: to pass, but he's very clear in saying that Edward, 417 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: his son and Athelstan's father, is to receive the majority 418 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 2: of estates in Wessex, in the heart of Wessex, and 419 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 2: it looks very clear that he was therefore being designated 420 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: the official successor to Alfred. And we just don't have 421 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: that kind of detail from Athelstan's rehn. And again it 422 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: could be in accidents of survival of our sources, but 423 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: we have no indication that he was, you know, laying 424 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: the foundations for someone else. One thing to say is 425 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: that Edmund Ishard brother does seem to succeed without any 426 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 2: real issues, So maybe it had been agreed, just wasn't 427 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 2: written down and actually it was quite a smooth transition 428 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 2: in power in Wessex. At least. 429 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: Forgive me if this makes no sense. But because there 430 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: are so many gaps in the story, I wonder for 431 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: you as a historian, is there like a holy grail 432 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: text that you would be desperate to find that you 433 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: think would be able to fill in the gaps of 434 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: ethel Stand's life. Is there sort of one text that 435 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: has been talked around They're like a missing piece. 436 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: One of the joies of doing early medical histories is 437 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 2: actually that new things appear all the time in various ways. 438 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,719 Speaker 2: And in fact, as I was writing the book, a 439 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 2: bag of coins, some of which were in Athelstan's name, 440 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: were found in Rome, and you know, it's terribly exciting 441 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 2: to wonder what these might say about Athelstan or those 442 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: traveling in the early tenth century to Rome. And the 443 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: same with texts. Even actually that sometimes in archival work 444 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: peace people find new copies of diplomas is a very 445 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 2: regular thing, or they find new copies of texts in 446 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: various ways, either texts that were written in the early 447 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: tenth century or copies of those texts which you know 448 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 2: that people haven't realized in the archives quite what they 449 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: have in front of them, so it's really exciting and 450 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 2: actually one of the reasons I love working in this 451 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 2: area is that there's always a chance for new material 452 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 2: to be found. I guess one thing I would really 453 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: wish for with Cathlestan specifically is we have you know, 454 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: the main contemporary narrative text is something called the Anglo 455 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: Saxon Chronicle. Survives in a number of principal manuscript versions, 456 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: and unfortunately for athlestands right in it, it feels relatively silent, 457 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: apart from a wonderful poem that it inserts in the 458 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: year nine three seven to commemorate the Battle of Brunanberg. 459 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: If I had a wish, it would be to discover 460 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 2: a manuscript that had more detail about Athelstan. 461 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: I will say, seeing physical artifacts from those times is 462 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: so striking to me. I was in Oxford last summer 463 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: saw the Alfred Jewel at the Ashmolean Museum, and to me, 464 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: that was sort of the moment. I had never really 465 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: been very interested in early medieval history. It sort of 466 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: felt very abstract me. But when you can see something tangible, 467 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 1: I think it really makes it come to life. 468 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: That's a wonderful object that takes us to the heart 469 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: of what's going on in the eight eighties when Alfred 470 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: is on the throne, and it's a moment when the 471 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 2: Vikings have left. He's managed to get rid of the 472 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: Vikings for the first time, that he's got a period 473 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: of peace. And one of the effects of the Viking raids, 474 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 2: we think learning and culture suffered across English kingdoms, and 475 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: Alfred put in place a program of revival, and one 476 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: of the things he sends out is an astyl, a 477 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: sort of pointer to help with reading texts, and the 478 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: Alpha Jewel seems to be the end of one of 479 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: those things. And there's a very moving in scripture and 480 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: it's saying Alfred ordered me to be made. Putting it 481 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: in the first person, it's just a beautiful, beautiful thing. 482 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: So I can quite understand why that brought it to 483 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: life for you. 484 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: Well, I also just want to say, your book, The 485 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: First King of England, really does bring this period of 486 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: history to life for me too, and I think we'll 487 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: do the same for all of us who, unfortunately I 488 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: add a less than stellar Latin education and can't appreciate 489 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: the poetry of the primary sources. 490 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Jane. That's really kind of you. 491 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: And before I let you go, can you give us 492 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: a little preview. I imagine you're going to be involved in 493 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: the anniversary celebrations in twenty twenty seven, but can you 494 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: give us a little bit of a preview of things 495 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: that we might be looking forward to. 496 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: We're just coming together as a small group of us 497 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 2: just thinking about, you know, what could be done, what's 498 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: the best way to commemorate Athelstein and think about that 499 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: very very important anniversary. Various people from across the country 500 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: have been in touch with us saying that they're thinking 501 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: along similar terms. I know there's a big group of 502 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: people up in the Northwest in Cumbria near aimon Bridge 503 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: where it all happened in ninety seven. They're thinking about 504 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: various things that they could do. Hopefully we'll be putting 505 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 2: up a website soon actually with where we're trying to 506 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: bring together details about what's going on and trying to 507 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 2: bring together ideas as well, So stay tuned for that website. 508 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Professor Woodman is shedding light on Ethelstan, 509 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: the first King of England in his book of that name. 510 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 2: Thank you, Dinnan. Thanks for having Me. 511 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild 512 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me Dana Schwartz, 513 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, Courtney Sender, 514 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: Amy Hit, and Julia Melaney. The show is edited and 515 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer rima il Kaali 516 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. 517 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 518 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.