WEBVTT - The Set-Up | EP 1 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.760 Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.560 your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.520 season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.879 the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.320 stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.320 want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.840 Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.279 Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.240 and a few you didn't like former A and TM 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:32.080 judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.159 of the long running TV series through the untold stories 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.519 of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:43.640 opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.560 shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.919 docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.920 Check your local TV provider schedule. If you've ever watched 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.680 America's Next Top Model, or even if you haven't, you 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.760 probably recognize this scene coming. 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:03.440 Here with a defeatist attitude I don't have. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.760 A bad attitude. Maybe I am angry inside. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.440 I've been through stuff, so I'm angry, which is not 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.240 anybody belot that's what is watching you. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:18.680 But you're not bad on the surface. It's Tyra Banks 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.240 finally losing her patients on a seemingly apathetic contestant named 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.119 Tiffany Richardson. Tiffany had just been eliminated from the competition, 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.520 and Tyra was disappointed in her attitude. But there's something 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.240 deeper going on here. I've never in my life yolder 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:33.959 the girl like this. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.800 When my mother yells at this, it's because she loves me. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:39.319 I was rooting for you. 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.479 We were all rooting for you. Out Damn you learn 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:43.319 something from this. 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.200 It's become one of the most iconic moments in all 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.680 of reality TV history, maybe in all of pop culture history. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.080 I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:02.080 Those words have trans sended their context. They've become a 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:07.360 meme and a catchphrase. That moment aired on April thirteenth, 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.440 two thousand and five, just a few days short of 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.400 my seventeenth birthday, and I was one of the five 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:18.160 point five million people watching it live. For a long time, 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.360 I thought I understood that moment, But after doing some 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.639 digging and talking to the models and crew members who 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:28.520 were there that day, I found out I had no clue. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.880 If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:33.760 what did you help her? 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.760 I'm just clutching my pearls. Okay, at this point, it 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:39.440 is ooh scary. 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.040 It's the same feeling that you get when your mom 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:43.240 was cursing out your sibling. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.200 There was a huge chunk that got cut out of that. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.600 Tyra got real personal with her and she hit her 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:51.400 below the bell. 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.320 I cried every freaking episode. 0:02:57.720 --> 0:02:59.680 I cried so much. I was just like, I'm not crying. 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.040 Them all gone, like I'm not. 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.600 Gonna beg to be here. People often wonder if that 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.240 moment was staged, and while a lot of the stuff 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.480 that happened on America's Next Top Model or ANTM was, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.480 according to everyone I spoke to and Tiffany Richardson herself, 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.240 the I was rooting for you moment was not staged. 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.760 That was real emotion and it's one of the few 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.480 times we see Tyra's wiggslip, a moment where we see 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.080 the real her. 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:32.400 You go to bed at night, you lay there and 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.320 you take responsibility for yourself because nobody's gonna take responsibility 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.720 for you. You rolling your eyes and because you've heard 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.800 it all before. You've heard it all before. You don't 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:43.480 know where the hell I come from. You have no 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.120 idea what I've been through. But I'm not a victim. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.400 I grow from it and I learn take responsibility for yourself. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.200 I've been looking into what happened on set that day, 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:00.720 and I've talked to people from every part of the 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.920 A and T and production, like Jose Torres. He was 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.560 a sound mixer on the show for twenty seasons, and 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.840 he was there during the we were Rooting for You moment. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.320 Tyra took some mean shots, and a lot of it 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.440 felt like she was personally invested in her. But she 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.520 said some things to her about what are you going 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.120 to do when you go back home and you're sleeping 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.520 on that mattress again, when it's just you and your baby. 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.440 You know, she got personal and she didn't need to, 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.040 but I could see she was really pissed off. 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.320 For the past six months, I've interviewed dozens of contestants, producers, 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.680 and crew members about their experiences on the show. I've 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.800 been sent contracts and heard about dubious psyche valuations. I've 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.560 been told about dangerous photoshoots and production standards that sound 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.560 were like psychological experiments. I've heard about body shaming that 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:57.039 caused lifelong trauma and edits that ruin people's careers. I 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.880 wanted to know everything, from how this show got made 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.080 to what really happened behind the scenes. I wanted to 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.359 figure out why A and TM had so many of 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.480 us in a choke hold and the effect it had 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.560 on us the audience. I wanted to know if the 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.200 price the contestants paid for their fifteen minutes of fame 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.080 was really worth it. And I wanted to figure out 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.800 if the show was cursed like so many people say, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.560 and if it was, who are the real victims of 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.680 the curse. Now, let's go on this investigative journey so 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.560 we can figure this out together. We want to beyond some, 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:42.760 want to beyond some. I'm Bridget Armstrong, and this is 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:48.320 the Curse of America's Next Top Model. A deep dive 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.839 into one of the most iconic and problematic shows in 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:57.039 American history. When A and TM premiered in two thousand 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.279 and three, it felt like it was the first reality 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.960 show for so one like me. I wouldn't say I 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.320 ever wanted to be a model, but I certainly thought 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.000 that with my high top Melissa Jelly sneakers, the girls 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.080 who Know Know, and my low rise Deilia's jeans, I 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:18.040 was a fashion girly while my peers were rocking micro raids. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.760 I printed out a picture of Eva the Diva's makeover 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.359 haircut from cycle three, took it to my stylus and said, 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.880 give me that. I don't think it's an exaggeration to 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.239 say A and TM had an impact on the woman 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.200 I became, and I know I'm not the only one. 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.040 For millennial women. The influence of the show was inescapable. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.840 Even if you didn't watch, it was in the air 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.719 around you, and in a way, it's still embedded in 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:49.960 our pop culture all these years later. And I would 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.200 know because I still love reality TV and pop culture 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.960 so much so that I've made a whole career out 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.120 of it. I've spent the last fifteen years as a 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.479 producer covering pop culture from NPR to box media to 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.200 the skim. The thing that's always fascinated me about pop 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.200 culture is that it's a reflection of our society, of 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.880 who we are. It's what we choose to create and consume, 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.720 and even if we don't want to admit it, it's 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.520 a reflection of our values and beliefs. That's what makes 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.880 America's Next Top Model such an interesting case study. In 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.720 a lot of ways, it's a time capsule of us. 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.800 And when the A and TM time capsule was opened 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:31.520 in twenty twenty, many of us were horrified at what 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.640 we saw. And welcome back to another episode of why 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.840 America's Next opp Model is the most toxic show up 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:37.520 its decade. 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.920 Robin was getting body shamed and age shamed the worst 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:41.920 out of all of them. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:43.440 And I just need to talk about some of the 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.040 makeovers that still make me mad to this day. A 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.160 and TM, especially in the early seasons, it's riddled with 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.160 body shaming and misguided and ignorant views on sexuality and race. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.640 The things that didn't seem deep to us back then 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:06.280 now seem deeply problematic. In every speaking engagement Tyra's done 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.800 since twenty twenty, she's had to address the backlash. Here 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.120 she is in twenty twenty five, accepting a luminary spotlight 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.160 of work from Essen and she's still talking about the 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.000 A ANDTM controversy. Did we get in right? 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:19.360 Hell? 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.600 No, I say some dumb shit. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:27.960 But I refuse to have my legacy be about some 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.720 stuff linked together on the internet when there were twenty 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:34.920 four cycles. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:41.920 Of changing the world. Tyra's right, they did say some 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:47.079 dumb shit. But here's the thing, even with my twenty 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:51.600 twenty five sensibilities and maturity, when I rewatched America's Next 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.680 Top Model, there's something about it that's still so good. 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.360 There's a reason why it lasted for twenty first seasons, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.160 and why it's been adapted in fifty countries, why there 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.640 are so many Reddit pages with thousands of posts dedicated 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.920 to reliving A andtm's best moments, and why at its 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:13.560 peak it drew over seven million viewers in episode. Even 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:18.120 with all the problematic shit, there's something magical about America's 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.280 Next Top Model, at least for the audience, But for 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:26.839 the models it's more complicated. Today, many of them are 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.960 speaking out about the negative experiences they had on the show. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.320 Take Yo Wanna House. She won the competition on cycle two, 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.000 but in that year afterwards she didn't feel like she 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.720 won much of anything. She was flat broke and she 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.800 wasn't getting any help from A and TM here's Yuanna. 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.079 It was really hard to not get in that headspace 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.920 of being bitter towards the show because you spit me 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.360 on as a winner. I won it rightfully so and 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.480 now I'm having to look and be a million bucks, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.640 but I'm not making any money right now. I'm living 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.480 on a couch from a makeup artist who extended their 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.200 couch for me. Yet I'm famous. 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.200 And Cycle four finalist Kenya Hill, whose entire storyline on 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:16.199 the show was about how much she ate. Kenya was thin, 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.520 she just wasn't afraid to eat on camera, so producers 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.520 decided a good storyline for her would be about her 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:27.560 supposed overeating that caused her to gain weight uncontrollably, which 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.080 wasn't true. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.760 Even still to this day, I am mindful of is 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.800 there anybody watching me eat right now? They believed what 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.520 was portrayed on the show, and so that has actually 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.160 been a struggle of just even eating in public. 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.160 I've heard a lot of disturbing stories and you will 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.040 too as this season goes on. But out of all 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.880 the criticisms and complaints, the contestants say, the biggest one 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.120 is that the show was never really voting for them. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.200 That A ANDTM failed to deliver the one thing it 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.760 repeatedly promised, a career in the high fashion modeling industry. 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.679 In fact, only one contestant went on to achieve top 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.400 model stardom that's anything close to Tyro's career, and that 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.960 was Winnie Harlowe. She's probably one of the most recognizable 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.960 women in fashion today. She has a true, one of 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.160 a kind look. She has been algo, a condition that 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.200 causes patches of skin to lose their color. It makes 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:34.040 her incredibly striking. When she was on A ANDTM cycle 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.080 twenty one, she went by her real name Chantelle, and 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.040 she was eliminated on the fourth episode, brought back, and 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.360 then eliminated again on episode thirteen. When she was first eliminated, 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.840 it was for an optical illusion photoshoot. In her picture, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.160 she's perched in this awkward sitting position and she looks 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.319 like she's wearing her shoulders as earrings. I don't know 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.240 if this was her best picture, but you can certainly 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:58.760 see why the judges sent her home. 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:05.480 Chantelle, here you are looking so beautiful, but we feel 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:10.240 like all this beauty is being thrown away. The judges 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:15.000 and social media are not happy with your photo. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.679 After she was eliminated, Winnie went on to have a 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.640 hugely successful career. She've walked the Victoria Secret Runway. She 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.800 was in Beyonce's visual album Lemonade. She's been on the 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.920 cover of Al Magazine, Harper's Bizarre, Vogue, Grease, Vogue India. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:34.520 She's that girl. But according to Winnie, A and TM 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:38.080 didn't help her modeling career at all. Here she is 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.920 on Watch What Happens Live. You were on America's Next 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:42.480 Top Model. 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.160 You did great, but then you really broke through and 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:46.120 here we are. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.520 So I really started after the show because that really 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.560 didn't do anything for my career, which it doesn't do 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.640 anything for any model's career realistically. I went on because 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.200 I thought like that was going to be a career starter, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.120 but it was really like a reality TV show. That's 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.400 not what I signed up for. I mean, it is 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.679 what she signed up for. She just thought she was 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:08.480 going to get a lot more out of it. Season 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.600 after season, we saw dozens of models compete for a 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.079 career making opportunity, and we watched one model be crowned 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.600 the winner of a and TM. But when they didn't 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.000 appear on the cover of Vogue or walk the Chanelle 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.959 or do your runways, when they didn't actually become top models, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.320 it didn't stop us from tuning in the next season 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:31.280 because it wasn't about that the show was entertaining short 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.440 Some contestants did work his models after the show, and 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.160 some used their fame to launch careers in other areas 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.480 of entertainment. But if this was a show that was 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.680 really about creating top models, why are there so many 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.319 contestants who say being on it actually hurt their chances 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:53.040 in the fashion industry. Like Angelie Preston, who first competed 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.040 on Cycle fourteen and then later on All Star seventeen. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.280 After the show ended, she wasn't booking modeling gigs, and 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.280 she didn't know why until a friend in the industry 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:04.400 told her the truth. 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.400 My booker was like, he loves you, but he cannot 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.800 sign you and he can't work with you because of 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:12.880 how you were portrayed. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.720 Basically, they not messing with you. And I was so 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:22.360 gutted because I was just like, why did I go 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.960 on the show? Angelie was portrayed as a girl who'd 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:28.480 left the hood, but couldn't quite get the hood to 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.400 leave her. But when she came back for the All 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.400 Star season, she'd had a glow up. It wasn't that 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.960 her look had changed, it was the way she carried 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.680 herself and the judges noticed. She was crowned the winner 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.400 of A and TM All Stars, but she didn't keep 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.680 that title long. A and TM stripped her of her 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:52.120 win and after she couldn't book any modeling jobs. But 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.720 that's a story we'll get into later this season. Angelie 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.000 wasn't the only model who told me she had a 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:03.440 hard time finding representation after being on A ANDTM. Gina 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:05.680 Turner was on the final cycle of A and TM. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.040 You may remember her clean, bald haircut that gave her 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.080 an otherworldly look. After she left Top Model, she had 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.200 trouble of finding an agent who would sign her. 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.720 I did have an agent tell me she knew I 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:20.760 was on America's Except Model and not as much as 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.200 she loved my look and would have loved to sign 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.840 into the agency. The agency unfortunately, does not typically affiliate 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:27.920 themselves with girls who have been on the show. It's 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.720 just really distracting for a lot of clients. And that 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.040 you know, she was happy to meet me that unfortunately 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.800 she couldn't sign me, and I was really bummed. 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.920 Out of course, for this show, I had to call 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.200 Lisa Dematto. She's probably one of the most infamous contestants 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.680 from ANTM because of her wild child antics, like the 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.520 time she peeded in a diaper on the set of 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.640 a photoshoot on cycle five. She's also known because to 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.880 this day she still trashes ANTM every chance she gets. 0:15:58.240 --> 0:15:59.440 I couldn't get an agency. 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.360 They're like, we can't book you for anything. 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.600 The clients that I would normally see for like nutrient 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.360 gene are crust or you. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:06.520 Know, any type of catalog. 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.960 No one wanted to see me. After the show. They 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:14.000 completely destroyed me. This is how a lot of contestants 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.040 talk about Tyra and A and TM today, But I 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.880 don't think it was Tyra's initial intention to ruin their careers. 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.040 Coming up, we're going to dive into the origins of 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.280 America's Next Top Model. When a young Tyra Banks came 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.880 up with an idea to launch her second act, an 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.200 idea that will propel want to be models into supermodel stardom. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.160 But as we know, only one of those things became 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:50.880 a reality when we talk about A and TM today, 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.280 it's usually about how problematic it was, or the fact 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.240 that it didn't really produce top models and that it 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.280 featured rampant body shaming and so called race flapping photo shoots. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.080 Critics of the show usually fall into one of two camps. 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.680 You either believe Tyra was an evil mastermind responsible for 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.280 everything wrong with ANTM, or you believe she was just 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.840 a host, a pretty face brought in to anchor a 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.000 modeling competition, just doing what she was told by sinister 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:22.399 faithless execs. The first thing I learned in reporting this 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:28.320 podcast is that the second option is not true. America's 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.240 next top Model was Tyra's idea. It was her baby, 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.400 her passion project. So let's go back to the beginning 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.439 to figure out how this germ of an idea in 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.280 Tyra's mind became a pop culture phenomenon. Don't you get 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.280 the idea for that show? That is such a good idea, 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.200 it's a weird. It was two thousand and two. Tyra 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.679 Banks was in her late twenty and looking for her 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.040 next move. Oprah. 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.240 I looked out the window and have this beautiful view, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.800 and it came to me. I was like, I want 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:56.879 to do like an American idol book for models, but 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.520 they lived together like the real world. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.280 A modeling boot camp based on her early career, those 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.760 scrappy years when she was just trying to become a supermodel, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.520 Tyra started modeling she was still a teenager. A girl 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.280 at school came up to her and told her she 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:12.160 had the right look. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.280 She was a beautiful girl, and she was like, you know, 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:15.920 you look like you should be a model, and mighty 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.560 tell you you'd model. You ain't model, And I was like, what, 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:21.840 you know, people stare at me, but not for that. 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.080 And she kind of took me under her wing and 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.320 taught me everything, and she started modeling, I think later 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.399 in the ninth grade. She started kind of early, and 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.240 then I started in the eleventh grade when I was fifteen. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.320 And at first Tyra actually got rejected by a lot 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.600 of agencies. But all you need is one yes, and 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.320 she got that when she was seventeen, so she packed 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.240 her bags and went to Paris alone. She went to 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.439 casting after casting, walked runway after runway to make it 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.480 to the top. And this was a time when there 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.200 were very few black supermodels, and Tyra was no Gigi 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.800 hided she didn't have the benefit of nepotism. She had 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.560 to get it out the mud. Here's a CNN segment 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:02.560 about her rise to fame. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.960 Nineteen year old Tyra Banks uses her chameleon likability to 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.920 change her attitude as often as she changes her clothes. 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.960 One minute, she shined, demure, the next salty and sex sea. 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.239 Tyra stands five feet eleven inches and especially in her 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.320 way to international fame. 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.159 In the span of a decade, which is quite a 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.440 long career for a model, Tyra became the first black 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.480 woman to do the cover of GQ and Sports Illustrated, 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.119 and she eventually went on to become one of the 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:36.119 most recognizable Victoria's Secret Angels. But from the beginning, Tyra 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.880 knew her modeling career was temporary. She was always planning 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.240 her next big thing. Here she is at age nineteen. 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.920 I'd like to reach my peaking around twenty three or 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.399 twenty four, like five years from now, I guess, and 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:49.480 move on to something else. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.159 What can you want to do besides modeling. 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.520 I'm going to film and television first media as an actress, 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.000 to learn that side of the camera. 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:57.240 But that's not my main though. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:58.840 I mean that's not what I want to do. 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:00.120 I want to be on the other side. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.680 Account like writing for film and televisions. 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.680 And she made the first part happen. Tyra did TV 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.320 appearances like this one where she played Wilsmith's homegirl Jackie 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.080 on The Fresh Prince. That's it. 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:16.440 I didn't come all the way here from Philly. 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:22.800 You are not even gonna change. Oh my gosh. I 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:27.280 remember that episode, and Tyra nailed it. She had a 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:30.639 pretty significant role in the nineteen ninety five film Higher Learning. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.639 She was even in a Disney movie with Lindsay Lohan 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.320 called Life Size, where she played a doll come to life. 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.200 So by the early two thousands, Tyra was a household name, 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.080 but she was also in her late twenties. And if 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.800 there's anything A and TM taught me, it's that if 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:48.960 you're over the age of twenty two, you might as 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.600 well be dead. In the modeling industry, some models use 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:55.840 their beauty to pivot into serious acting careers, like Charlie's 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.560 Thereon or Cameron Diaz. Others were content to fade into 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.879 the shadow to become fashion icons of yesteryear. But Tyra 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.280 was determined to roll her fame into something even bigger. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.000 Because I'm not satisfied with just my career now. I mean, 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:12.840 I always want more. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:13.800 I always want to do more. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.200 I never like just stop and get satisfied with something. 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.600 So that's when Tyra got her billion dollar idea, a 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.919 show that would use her expertise in modeling and launched 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.879 her career in TV. And just like she had to 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.800 fight to make it on the Runway, Tyra had to 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:34.680 fight to get a and TM made. When Tyra initially 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:36.960 came up with the show, her agent told her it 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:38.160 was a bad idea. 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:40.720 I had a lot of people tell me that this 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.960 wasn't going to work, that models are unsympathetic characters. Actually 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.800 is my agent. He told me models are unsympathetic characters. 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:47.760 Nobody wants to see this. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.520 I hope she fired that guy. But Tyra knew she 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.520 had something special, so she kept telling people about her 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.840 little reality show idea until she found someone who saw 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:04.679 the vision, an established television producer named Ken Mock. A 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.960 friend introduced Tyran. Ken, they had a two hour meeting 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.919 and he was sold. They decided to be partners on 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.639