1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 9 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 15 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule. If you've ever watched 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model, or even if you haven't, you 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: probably recognize this scene coming. 19 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: Here with a defeatist attitude I don't have. 20 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: A bad attitude. Maybe I am angry inside. 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: I've been through stuff, so I'm angry, which is not 22 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: anybody belot that's what is watching you. 23 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: But you're not bad on the surface. It's Tyra Banks 24 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: finally losing her patients on a seemingly apathetic contestant named 25 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: Tiffany Richardson. Tiffany had just been eliminated from the competition, 26 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: and Tyra was disappointed in her attitude. But there's something 27 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: deeper going on here. I've never in my life yolder 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: the girl like this. 29 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: When my mother yells at this, it's because she loves me. 30 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: I was rooting for you. 31 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 2: We were all rooting for you. Out Damn you learn 32 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: something from this. 33 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: It's become one of the most iconic moments in all 34 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: of reality TV history, maybe in all of pop culture history. 35 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Those words have trans sended their context. They've become a 37 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: meme and a catchphrase. That moment aired on April thirteenth, 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and five, just a few days short of 39 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: my seventeenth birthday, and I was one of the five 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: point five million people watching it live. For a long time, 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: I thought I understood that moment, But after doing some 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: digging and talking to the models and crew members who 43 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: were there that day, I found out I had no clue. 44 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, 45 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: what did you help her? 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: I'm just clutching my pearls. Okay, at this point, it 47 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: is ooh scary. 48 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: It's the same feeling that you get when your mom 49 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 4: was cursing out your sibling. 50 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 5: There was a huge chunk that got cut out of that. 51 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 5: Tyra got real personal with her and she hit her 52 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 5: below the bell. 53 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: I cried every freaking episode. 54 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: I cried so much. I was just like, I'm not crying. 55 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 6: Them all gone, like I'm not. 56 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: Gonna beg to be here. People often wonder if that 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: moment was staged, and while a lot of the stuff 58 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: that happened on America's Next Top Model or ANTM was, 59 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: according to everyone I spoke to and Tiffany Richardson herself, 60 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: the I was rooting for you moment was not staged. 61 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: That was real emotion and it's one of the few 62 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: times we see Tyra's wiggslip, a moment where we see 63 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: the real her. 64 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: You go to bed at night, you lay there and 65 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: you take responsibility for yourself because nobody's gonna take responsibility 66 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: for you. You rolling your eyes and because you've heard 67 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: it all before. You've heard it all before. You don't 68 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: know where the hell I come from. You have no 69 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: idea what I've been through. But I'm not a victim. 70 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: I grow from it and I learn take responsibility for yourself. 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: I've been looking into what happened on set that day, 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: and I've talked to people from every part of the 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: A and T and production, like Jose Torres. He was 74 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: a sound mixer on the show for twenty seasons, and 75 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: he was there during the we were Rooting for You moment. 76 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 5: Tyra took some mean shots, and a lot of it 77 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 5: felt like she was personally invested in her. But she 78 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 5: said some things to her about what are you going 79 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 5: to do when you go back home and you're sleeping 80 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 5: on that mattress again, when it's just you and your baby. 81 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 5: You know, she got personal and she didn't need to, 82 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 5: but I could see she was really pissed off. 83 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: For the past six months, I've interviewed dozens of contestants, producers, 84 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: and crew members about their experiences on the show. I've 85 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: been sent contracts and heard about dubious psyche valuations. I've 86 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: been told about dangerous photoshoots and production standards that sound 87 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: were like psychological experiments. I've heard about body shaming that 88 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: caused lifelong trauma and edits that ruin people's careers. I 89 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: wanted to know everything, from how this show got made 90 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: to what really happened behind the scenes. I wanted to 91 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: figure out why A and TM had so many of 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: us in a choke hold and the effect it had 93 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: on us the audience. I wanted to know if the 94 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: price the contestants paid for their fifteen minutes of fame 95 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: was really worth it. And I wanted to figure out 96 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: if the show was cursed like so many people say, 97 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: and if it was, who are the real victims of 98 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: the curse. Now, let's go on this investigative journey so 99 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: we can figure this out together. We want to beyond some, 100 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: want to beyond some. I'm Bridget Armstrong, and this is 101 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: the Curse of America's Next Top Model. A deep dive 102 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: into one of the most iconic and problematic shows in 103 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: American history. When A and TM premiered in two thousand 104 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: and three, it felt like it was the first reality 105 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: show for so one like me. I wouldn't say I 106 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: ever wanted to be a model, but I certainly thought 107 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: that with my high top Melissa Jelly sneakers, the girls 108 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: who Know Know, and my low rise Deilia's jeans, I 109 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: was a fashion girly while my peers were rocking micro raids. 110 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: I printed out a picture of Eva the Diva's makeover 111 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: haircut from cycle three, took it to my stylus and said, 112 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: give me that. I don't think it's an exaggeration to 113 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 1: say A and TM had an impact on the woman 114 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: I became, and I know I'm not the only one. 115 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: For millennial women. The influence of the show was inescapable. 116 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: Even if you didn't watch, it was in the air 117 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: around you, and in a way, it's still embedded in 118 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: our pop culture all these years later. And I would 119 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: know because I still love reality TV and pop culture 120 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: so much so that I've made a whole career out 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: of it. I've spent the last fifteen years as a 122 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: producer covering pop culture from NPR to box media to 123 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: the skim. The thing that's always fascinated me about pop 124 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: culture is that it's a reflection of our society, of 125 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: who we are. It's what we choose to create and consume, 126 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: and even if we don't want to admit it, it's 127 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: a reflection of our values and beliefs. That's what makes 128 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model such an interesting case study. In 129 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, it's a time capsule of us. 130 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: And when the A and TM time capsule was opened 131 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, many of us were horrified at what 132 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: we saw. And welcome back to another episode of why 133 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: America's Next opp Model is the most toxic show up 134 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: its decade. 135 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: Robin was getting body shamed and age shamed the worst 136 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 3: out of all of them. 137 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: And I just need to talk about some of the 138 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: makeovers that still make me mad to this day. A 139 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: and TM, especially in the early seasons, it's riddled with 140 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: body shaming and misguided and ignorant views on sexuality and race. 141 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: The things that didn't seem deep to us back then 142 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: now seem deeply problematic. In every speaking engagement Tyra's done 143 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: since twenty twenty, she's had to address the backlash. Here 144 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: she is in twenty twenty five, accepting a luminary spotlight 145 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: of work from Essen and she's still talking about the 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: A ANDTM controversy. Did we get in right? 147 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 6: Hell? 148 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: No, I say some dumb shit. 149 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 6: But I refuse to have my legacy be about some 150 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 6: stuff linked together on the internet when there were twenty 151 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 6: four cycles. 152 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: Of changing the world. Tyra's right, they did say some 153 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: dumb shit. But here's the thing, even with my twenty 154 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: twenty five sensibilities and maturity, when I rewatched America's Next 155 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: Top Model, there's something about it that's still so good. 156 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: There's a reason why it lasted for twenty first seasons, 157 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: and why it's been adapted in fifty countries, why there 158 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: are so many Reddit pages with thousands of posts dedicated 159 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: to reliving A andtm's best moments, and why at its 160 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: peak it drew over seven million viewers in episode. Even 161 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: with all the problematic shit, there's something magical about America's 162 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: Next Top Model, at least for the audience, But for 163 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: the models it's more complicated. Today, many of them are 164 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: speaking out about the negative experiences they had on the show. 165 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: Take Yo Wanna House. She won the competition on cycle two, 166 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: but in that year afterwards she didn't feel like she 167 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: won much of anything. She was flat broke and she 168 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: wasn't getting any help from A and TM here's Yuanna. 169 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 4: It was really hard to not get in that headspace 170 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 4: of being bitter towards the show because you spit me 171 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 4: on as a winner. I won it rightfully so and 172 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 4: now I'm having to look and be a million bucks, 173 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 4: but I'm not making any money right now. I'm living 174 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 4: on a couch from a makeup artist who extended their 175 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 4: couch for me. Yet I'm famous. 176 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: And Cycle four finalist Kenya Hill, whose entire storyline on 177 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: the show was about how much she ate. Kenya was thin, 178 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: she just wasn't afraid to eat on camera, so producers 179 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: decided a good storyline for her would be about her 180 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: supposed overeating that caused her to gain weight uncontrollably, which 181 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: wasn't true. 182 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 7: Even still to this day, I am mindful of is 183 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 7: there anybody watching me eat right now? They believed what 184 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 7: was portrayed on the show, and so that has actually 185 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 7: been a struggle of just even eating in public. 186 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of disturbing stories and you will 187 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: too as this season goes on. But out of all 188 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: the criticisms and complaints, the contestants say, the biggest one 189 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: is that the show was never really voting for them. 190 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: That A ANDTM failed to deliver the one thing it 191 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: repeatedly promised, a career in the high fashion modeling industry. 192 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: In fact, only one contestant went on to achieve top 193 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: model stardom that's anything close to Tyro's career, and that 194 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: was Winnie Harlowe. She's probably one of the most recognizable 195 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: women in fashion today. She has a true, one of 196 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: a kind look. She has been algo, a condition that 197 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: causes patches of skin to lose their color. It makes 198 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: her incredibly striking. When she was on A ANDTM cycle 199 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: twenty one, she went by her real name Chantelle, and 200 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: she was eliminated on the fourth episode, brought back, and 201 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: then eliminated again on episode thirteen. When she was first eliminated, 202 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: it was for an optical illusion photoshoot. In her picture, 203 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: she's perched in this awkward sitting position and she looks 204 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: like she's wearing her shoulders as earrings. I don't know 205 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: if this was her best picture, but you can certainly 206 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: see why the judges sent her home. 207 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 8: Chantelle, here you are looking so beautiful, but we feel 208 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 8: like all this beauty is being thrown away. The judges 209 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 8: and social media are not happy with your photo. 210 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: After she was eliminated, Winnie went on to have a 211 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: hugely successful career. She've walked the Victoria Secret Runway. She 212 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: was in Beyonce's visual album Lemonade. She's been on the 213 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: cover of Al Magazine, Harper's Bizarre, Vogue, Grease, Vogue India. 214 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: She's that girl. But according to Winnie, A and TM 215 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: didn't help her modeling career at all. Here she is 216 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: on Watch What Happens Live. You were on America's Next 217 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: Top Model. 218 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 5: You did great, but then you really broke through and 219 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 5: here we are. 220 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: So I really started after the show because that really 221 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: didn't do anything for my career, which it doesn't do 222 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: anything for any model's career realistically. I went on because 223 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: I thought like that was going to be a career starter, 224 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: but it was really like a reality TV show. That's 225 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: not what I signed up for. I mean, it is 226 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: what she signed up for. She just thought she was 227 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: going to get a lot more out of it. Season 228 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: after season, we saw dozens of models compete for a 229 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: career making opportunity, and we watched one model be crowned 230 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: the winner of a and TM. But when they didn't 231 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: appear on the cover of Vogue or walk the Chanelle 232 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 1: or do your runways, when they didn't actually become top models, 233 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: it didn't stop us from tuning in the next season 234 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: because it wasn't about that the show was entertaining short 235 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: Some contestants did work his models after the show, and 236 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: some used their fame to launch careers in other areas 237 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: of entertainment. But if this was a show that was 238 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: really about creating top models, why are there so many 239 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: contestants who say being on it actually hurt their chances 240 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: in the fashion industry. Like Angelie Preston, who first competed 241 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: on Cycle fourteen and then later on All Star seventeen. 242 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: After the show ended, she wasn't booking modeling gigs, and 243 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: she didn't know why until a friend in the industry 244 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: told her the truth. 245 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 3: My booker was like, he loves you, but he cannot 246 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 3: sign you and he can't work with you because of 247 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 3: how you were portrayed. 248 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: Basically, they not messing with you. And I was so 249 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: gutted because I was just like, why did I go 250 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: on the show? Angelie was portrayed as a girl who'd 251 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: left the hood, but couldn't quite get the hood to 252 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: leave her. But when she came back for the All 253 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: Star season, she'd had a glow up. It wasn't that 254 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: her look had changed, it was the way she carried 255 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: herself and the judges noticed. She was crowned the winner 256 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: of A and TM All Stars, but she didn't keep 257 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: that title long. A and TM stripped her of her 258 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: win and after she couldn't book any modeling jobs. But 259 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: that's a story we'll get into later this season. Angelie 260 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: wasn't the only model who told me she had a 261 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: hard time finding representation after being on A ANDTM. Gina 262 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: Turner was on the final cycle of A and TM. 263 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: You may remember her clean, bald haircut that gave her 264 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: an otherworldly look. After she left Top Model, she had 265 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: trouble of finding an agent who would sign her. 266 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 9: I did have an agent tell me she knew I 267 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 9: was on America's Except Model and not as much as 268 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 9: she loved my look and would have loved to sign 269 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 9: into the agency. The agency unfortunately, does not typically affiliate 270 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 9: themselves with girls who have been on the show. It's 271 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 9: just really distracting for a lot of clients. And that 272 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 9: you know, she was happy to meet me that unfortunately 273 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 9: she couldn't sign me, and I was really bummed. 274 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: Out of course, for this show, I had to call 275 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: Lisa Dematto. She's probably one of the most infamous contestants 276 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: from ANTM because of her wild child antics, like the 277 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: time she peeded in a diaper on the set of 278 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: a photoshoot on cycle five. She's also known because to 279 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: this day she still trashes ANTM every chance she gets. 280 00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: I couldn't get an agency. 281 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 4: They're like, we can't book you for anything. 282 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 9: The clients that I would normally see for like nutrient 283 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 9: gene are crust or you. 284 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 4: Know, any type of catalog. 285 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: No one wanted to see me. After the show. They 286 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: completely destroyed me. This is how a lot of contestants 287 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: talk about Tyra and A and TM today, But I 288 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: don't think it was Tyra's initial intention to ruin their careers. 289 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: Coming up, we're going to dive into the origins of 290 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model. When a young Tyra Banks came 291 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: up with an idea to launch her second act, an 292 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: idea that will propel want to be models into supermodel stardom. 293 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: But as we know, only one of those things became 294 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: a reality when we talk about A and TM today, 295 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: it's usually about how problematic it was, or the fact 296 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: that it didn't really produce top models and that it 297 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: featured rampant body shaming and so called race flapping photo shoots. 298 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: Critics of the show usually fall into one of two camps. 299 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: You either believe Tyra was an evil mastermind responsible for 300 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: everything wrong with ANTM, or you believe she was just 301 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: a host, a pretty face brought in to anchor a 302 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: modeling competition, just doing what she was told by sinister 303 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: faithless execs. The first thing I learned in reporting this 304 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: podcast is that the second option is not true. America's 305 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: next top Model was Tyra's idea. It was her baby, 306 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: her passion project. So let's go back to the beginning 307 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: to figure out how this germ of an idea in 308 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: Tyra's mind became a pop culture phenomenon. Don't you get 309 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: the idea for that show? That is such a good idea, 310 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: it's a weird. It was two thousand and two. Tyra 311 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: Banks was in her late twenty and looking for her 312 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: next move. Oprah. 313 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: I looked out the window and have this beautiful view, 314 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: and it came to me. I was like, I want 315 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: to do like an American idol book for models, but 316 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: they lived together like the real world. 317 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: A modeling boot camp based on her early career, those 318 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: scrappy years when she was just trying to become a supermodel, 319 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: Tyra started modeling she was still a teenager. A girl 320 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: at school came up to her and told her she 321 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: had the right look. 322 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: She was a beautiful girl, and she was like, you know, 323 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: you look like you should be a model, and mighty 324 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: tell you you'd model. You ain't model, And I was like, what, 325 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: you know, people stare at me, but not for that. 326 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: And she kind of took me under her wing and 327 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: taught me everything, and she started modeling, I think later 328 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: in the ninth grade. She started kind of early, and 329 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: then I started in the eleventh grade when I was fifteen. 330 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: And at first Tyra actually got rejected by a lot 331 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: of agencies. But all you need is one yes, and 332 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: she got that when she was seventeen, so she packed 333 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: her bags and went to Paris alone. She went to 334 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: casting after casting, walked runway after runway to make it 335 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: to the top. And this was a time when there 336 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: were very few black supermodels, and Tyra was no Gigi 337 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: hided she didn't have the benefit of nepotism. She had 338 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: to get it out the mud. Here's a CNN segment 339 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: about her rise to fame. 340 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 10: Nineteen year old Tyra Banks uses her chameleon likability to 341 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 10: change her attitude as often as she changes her clothes. 342 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 10: One minute, she shined, demure, the next salty and sex sea. 343 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,239 Speaker 10: Tyra stands five feet eleven inches and especially in her 344 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 10: way to international fame. 345 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: In the span of a decade, which is quite a 346 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: long career for a model, Tyra became the first black 347 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: woman to do the cover of GQ and Sports Illustrated, 348 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: and she eventually went on to become one of the 349 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: most recognizable Victoria's Secret Angels. But from the beginning, Tyra 350 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: knew her modeling career was temporary. She was always planning 351 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: her next big thing. Here she is at age nineteen. 352 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: I'd like to reach my peaking around twenty three or 353 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: twenty four, like five years from now, I guess, and 354 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: move on to something else. 355 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 10: What can you want to do besides modeling. 356 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to film and television first media as an actress, 357 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: to learn that side of the camera. 358 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: But that's not my main though. 359 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: I mean that's not what I want to do. 360 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 8: I want to be on the other side. 361 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 2: Account like writing for film and televisions. 362 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: And she made the first part happen. Tyra did TV 363 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: appearances like this one where she played Wilsmith's homegirl Jackie 364 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: on The Fresh Prince. That's it. 365 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: I didn't come all the way here from Philly. 366 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: You are not even gonna change. Oh my gosh. I 367 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: remember that episode, and Tyra nailed it. She had a 368 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: pretty significant role in the nineteen ninety five film Higher Learning. 369 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: She was even in a Disney movie with Lindsay Lohan 370 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: called Life Size, where she played a doll come to life. 371 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: So by the early two thousands, Tyra was a household name, 372 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: but she was also in her late twenties. And if 373 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: there's anything A and TM taught me, it's that if 374 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: you're over the age of twenty two, you might as 375 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: well be dead. In the modeling industry, some models use 376 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: their beauty to pivot into serious acting careers, like Charlie's 377 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: Thereon or Cameron Diaz. Others were content to fade into 378 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: the shadow to become fashion icons of yesteryear. But Tyra 379 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: was determined to roll her fame into something even bigger. 380 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: Because I'm not satisfied with just my career now. I mean, 381 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: I always want more. 382 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 4: I always want to do more. 383 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 2: I never like just stop and get satisfied with something. 384 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: So that's when Tyra got her billion dollar idea, a 385 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: show that would use her expertise in modeling and launched 386 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: her career in TV. And just like she had to 387 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: fight to make it on the Runway, Tyra had to 388 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: fight to get a and TM made. When Tyra initially 389 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: came up with the show, her agent told her it 390 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: was a bad idea. 391 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: I had a lot of people tell me that this 392 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: wasn't going to work, that models are unsympathetic characters. Actually 393 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: is my agent. He told me models are unsympathetic characters. 394 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: Nobody wants to see this. 395 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: I hope she fired that guy. But Tyra knew she 396 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: had something special, so she kept telling people about her 397 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: little reality show idea until she found someone who saw 398 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: the vision, an established television producer named Ken Mock. A 399 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: friend introduced Tyran. Ken, they had a two hour meeting 400 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: and he was sold. They decided to be partners on 401 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: this project. Ken had already produced a few reality shows, 402 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: so we had some connections and he helped their set 403 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: up meetings to pitch the show to networks, and they 404 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: got a lot of nos. 405 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: And we pitched it like I stood up because I 406 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 2: knew who I wanted my cast to be. I walk 407 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: and acted like miss Jay Honeycappache, I think you don't. 408 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 6: I did the whole thing for all of the networks. 409 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: I sure did acted out everybody. 410 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: They must have loved it. 411 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 4: They loved it. 412 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 2: Not everybody bought it, but they loved it. 413 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: Tyron's over the top antics started before she even had 414 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: a deal. She was in those boardrooms putting on a 415 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: one woman show. She literally acted out her dream cast 416 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: and people loved it, but not enough to fund the show. 417 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: That was until she met with an exec from CBS 418 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: named Ken Maynard, who also told her it was a 419 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: no for CBS, but he did think it could be 420 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: good for a smaller network. He oversaw UPN UPN didn't 421 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: have as wide of a reach as CBS. It targeted 422 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: a smaller demographic, and I was in that smaller demographic. 423 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: By two thousand and three, the golden era of nineties 424 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: black sitcoms had ended, so UPN stepped in to fill 425 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: in the gap, and I used to Love Me Some, UPN, 426 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: Half in Half, One on One, Moesha, The Parkers. While 427 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: it didn't cast as wide of a net as other networks, 428 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: a lot of UPN's programming was younger and blacker. It 429 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: featured shows that starred black leads and majority black casts 430 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: at a time when other networks were basically presended like 431 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: black people didn't exist for a while. That really worked 432 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: for UPN. They had the market cornered on scripted programming 433 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: with black leads. BT obviously was the other network that 434 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: featured black celebrities, but they had more unscripted shows and 435 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: music countdowns, and that was really it if you wanted 436 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: to see more than two black people on TV at 437 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: the same time. Here's Raquel Gates, an associate professor of 438 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: film at Columbia University. She studies, writes, and teaches about television, 439 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: particularly through the lens of race and culture. 440 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 11: UPN and the WB really follow in the line of 441 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 11: Fox Network in the nineties, where you have these new 442 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 11: networks that realized that younger audiences, black audiences are a 443 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 11: really safe bet in terms of getting eyeballs on the 444 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 11: screens and on the programming. 445 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: Initially, UPN heard the pitch as a courtesy, but after 446 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: meeting with Tyra, they realized she wasn't just a pretty face, 447 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: she was an entertainer, and they decided to take a 448 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: chance on the show. They greenlit it for one season. 449 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Tyra was a little disappointed at first. She envisioned her 450 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: project on a more mainstream network, but to me, the 451 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: placement on UPN made a lot of sense. Tyra was 452 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: one of a small handful of black supermodels, and from 453 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: the beginning, Tyra said she wanted A and TM to 454 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: feature diverse beauty to challenge the rigid standards of the 455 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: high fashion world. Here's Tyra reflecting back on her initial 456 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: vision for the show. 457 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 8: The why for me with this top Model show is 458 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,719 Speaker 8: because I want to expand the definition of beauty. 459 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: I want to kick to the curb. 460 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: This thing about this cookie cutter and you have to 461 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 2: be six feet one hundred and twenty pounds, have. 462 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 6: Blonde hair, and you know like all that. 463 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: I was like, I want to kick that to the curb. 464 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: That's funny because at least when it came to looks, 465 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: the first two winners didn't exactly break the mold. They 466 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: were both six feet tall, skinny, white women, they just 467 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: weren't blonde, But that's a different conversation. For Tyra, getting 468 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: the opportunity to bring this show to life overshadowed her 469 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: disappointment of not being on CBS. Plus, she realized one 470 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: of the perks of being a big fish in a 471 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: small pond was that she had more control. Tyra owned 472 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: twenty five percent of America's Next Time Model A and 473 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: TM was part of Tyra's larger plan for her career. 474 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: She wanted to be Oprah, and she said as much 475 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: in a two thousand and four interview with Newsweek. Top 476 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: Model was supposed to be her first step towards becoming 477 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: a media mogul. After the break the story of how 478 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: Tyra's big idea made it to our TV screens. Tyra 479 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: Banks had drive, she had vision, and she certainly had 480 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: that it factor. The only thing she didn't have was 481 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: reality TV production experience. That's where her new collaborator, Kim 482 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: Mock came in. Here's an interview with Kim Mock from 483 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen where the interviewer talks about Kim Mack's reality TV. 484 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 12: Legacy even called the godfather of reality TV. You produced 485 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 12: making the band, which I think was the forerunner to 486 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 12: all these singing audition programs that we have today. I 487 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 12: did Pussycat Dolls Present and of course your most successful 488 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 12: hit so far, America's Next Top Model. 489 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Kim Mack's formula for making a good 490 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: reality competition show. First, you find people who are desperate 491 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: to attain something they couldn't otherwise get. Then you offer 492 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: them that thing in a way that seems like a 493 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: shortcut or a cheat code. Next, you turn on the cameras, 494 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: and this is very important, you put them through embarrassing, stressful, 495 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: and demeaning experiences in order to prove their worthiness for 496 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: the grand prize. This was the formula kN Mack used 497 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,479 Speaker 1: before on another reality show you may have heard of 498 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: that hasn't aged well. It was called Making the Band. 499 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 3: The Big figure over it was Sean Poffstati Calms. 500 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: That's Amanda Kline, a reality TV historian and expert. Making 501 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: the Band was like A and TM, but for music groups. 502 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: The show was famous for making These young musicians performed 503 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: demeaning task at Shawn Combe's request, like the iconic Cheesecake 504 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: incident where Diddy asked the contestants to walk the six 505 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: plus miles from Manhattan to Brooklyn to deliver him a 506 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: piece of cheesecake from Juniors. The rumor is the cheesecake 507 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: was actually for Beyonce, who was working with him in 508 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: the studio. 509 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 5: Puffy just told us to go to the store in 510 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 5: Brooklyn and bring about the cheesecake and walk as well. 511 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: Making the bitch not making back and tell them when 512 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: you're doing it. 513 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 7: And God. 514 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: Here it was a task that had nothing to do 515 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: with how well these people rapped or sank. It was 516 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 1: about entertaining the audience. I don't know whose idea that was, 517 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: but America's Next Top Model is also notorious for putting 518 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: models in difficult and yes, sometimes demeaning and even dangerous 519 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: situations that seemed to be strictly for our entertainment and 520 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with modeling. And that isn't the 521 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: only parallel. The last part of Kim Mack's formula is 522 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: an expert host with a larger than life personality, someone 523 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: who could get the contestants to do the demeaning tasks. 524 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: The host needed to be someone who could make or 525 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: break the contestants' careers. Know whether they would actually make 526 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: their career that's another story. But Ken Mock needed someone 527 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: who's very presence on set raised the stakes for the 528 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: contestants and for us, someone who these contestants would do 529 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: anything to impress on making the band. It was Sean Combs. 530 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: He'd already launched the careers of some of the most 531 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: successful artists in hip hop, and when Ken met Tyra Banks, 532 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: he saw the same potential. She was a veteran supermodel 533 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: who'd climb to the top of the fashion industry. 534 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: It makes sense that ken Mock would kind of stick 535 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: with that idea of a kingmaker. Tyra Banks has this 536 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 3: eye right where she can pick out the model. 537 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: Now here's where we need need to talk about some 538 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: disturbing coincidences. The first three seasons of making the band 539 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: before it went to MTV and Diddy became the host, 540 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: followed the journey to bring together train and launch a 541 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: boy band called O Town. Their first music industry expert 542 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: and guide was a man named Lou Pearlman. Hey, all 543 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: you singers out there. 544 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 5: Lou Pearlman, the mastermind behind such bands as LFO in 545 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 5: Sync of the Backstreet Boys. 546 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 4: As looking for five talented young men to form a 547 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 4: new band. 548 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: Lou Pearlman made his name by launching and managing some 549 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: of the most successful boy bands in the nineties and 550 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: two thousands. He died in prison in disgrace in twenty 551 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: sixteen after being convicted of running one of the largest 552 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: Ponzi schemes in US history. He was also accused by 553 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: multiple young male performers of sexual misconduct. The person who 554 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: took Pearlman spot on Making the Band after he left 555 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: was Sean P. Diddy Combes, and we all know what 556 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: he's been accused of, including allegations of abuse, sexual misus conduct, harassment, 557 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: and intimidation by former Making the Band cast members. At 558 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: least one of those contestants, Sarah Rivers, sued Ditty for 559 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: sexual harassment she said took place during the taping of 560 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: Making the Band. To be clear, there's no evidence kN 561 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: mak knew about any of that while the shows were airing, 562 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: and while he remained credited as the show's creator during 563 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: Ditty's tenure. He reportedly took a more hands off role 564 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: in later seasons. But it is striking that on both 565 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: these shows, the kingmakers at the center were later accused 566 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: of abusing their power. And here's the thing. Years before 567 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: these serious allegations against Seawn Holmes and Lou Pearlman came 568 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: to light. Both of these men already had a reputation 569 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: for shady business dealings. In the late nineties and early 570 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: two thousands, Ditty was accused of unfair business practices by 571 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: several of his artists, including Mace one twelve and hip 572 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: hop group The Locks. Here's a two thousand and five 573 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: radio interview with The Locks where Jadakis confronted. 574 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 5: Ditty stopped pumping on the radio. 575 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: Now you because you just don't want to know what 576 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: you was done. We made one record with you money 577 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: to out of respect. It's ten years later, and you 578 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: showed got half about publishing. That wasn't all. Diddy was 579 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: literally on trial for shooting someone in the nightclub in 580 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. He was acquitted, but the rapper who 581 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: was convicted, who was also signed to Bad Boy, has 582 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: strongly implied that he took the fall for Ditty and Lou. 583 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: Pearlman's affinity for three sixty deals was well known in 584 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: the pop music industry. Here's insincs Lance Bass talking about him. 585 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 13: Lou really thought he was just entitled to all of this. 586 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 13: You know, if it was idea, you know, to do this, 587 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 13: and he introduced you to this person to get you 588 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 13: that record deal. Then yeah, he was entitled in ninety 589 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 13: percent of your business because if it wasn't for him, 590 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 13: he'd be nothing. So you want ten percent or nothing. 591 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: That was all out in the open before either of 592 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: them was hired on making band, So even if the 593 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: show's producers didn't know about the more serious allegations, they 594 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: seem to have turned a blind eye to the allegedly 595 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: unethical business practices making the band. Worked with the con 596 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: artists because he made good TV. Then they worked with 597 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: a guy who was accused of shooting someone and cheating 598 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: his artists because he made better TV. Now I'm not 599 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: saying Tyra was on the same level as Ditty or 600 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: lu Pearlman. She's never been accused of sexual misconduct or 601 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: any other crime. But the point is in the early 602 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: days of reality TV, the ethical lines were quite blurred. 603 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: The only thing that mattered was if the show was 604 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: a success. And the show Ken Mob created positioned not 605 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: one but two ethically dubious men as mentors to impressionable 606 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: young people. And while Tyra may not be of super 607 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: villain like Ditty, she chose the partner with the man 608 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: who gave him and lu Pearlman a bigger place. And 609 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: just like we saw on making the band, she was 610 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: willing to make humiliation a big part of America's Next 611 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: Top Model. The models safety, their bodies, their appearance, their 612 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: identity was put on the line and picked apart for 613 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: our entertainment. 614 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 8: Do you really think he can have a cover bell 615 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 8: contract with the gap in your room? 616 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 11: Yes? 617 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 2: Why not? 618 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 14: This is all people say Israel's beautiful cover girl. 619 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: She felt twice. I was like, oh my gosh. 620 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: You're trying to be so sexy and so girly and you. 621 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 4: Look like a man in a dress. 622 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: Girl. Now. I never thought I'd be mentioning Tyra Banks's 623 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: name next to these two criminals, But her legacy is 624 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: tied together with Ken mox and the shady early days 625 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: of reality TV. And Ken wasn't just an EP on paper. 626 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: He was there calling the shots on set Harri's former 627 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: a and tm soal mixer Jose Torres. 628 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 5: Any of the major events that happened on that show, 629 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 5: they did not happen without Ki approval, without his say 630 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 5: so good or bad. If anything happened on that show, 631 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 5: Ken Mock. 632 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: Signed off Tyra could not have made this show without 633 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: her co pilot Ken Mock. Sure, they were just a 634 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: production team making another reality show when Reality TV was 635 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: still in its Wild Wild West era. But what I've 636 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: heard from models over and over is that America's Next 637 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: Top Model took advantage of their dreams, and the models 638 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: who were on the earlier seasons had no idea what 639 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: this show really was. There's something kind of cruel about 640 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: embarrassing young people who trust you with their dreams. These 641 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: aren't the same people who signed up to starve on 642 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,919 Speaker 1: Survivor in order to win a million dollars. These were 643 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: mostly teenagers and young adults who were told this opportunity 644 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: could give them access to the otherwise inaccessible career they 645 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: desperately wanted. There's this idea that ANTM was cursed because 646 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: so few of the contestants went on to have successful 647 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: careers as models. When I first started reporting, I thought 648 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: this was an unfortunate reality of the modeling world. Maybe 649 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: the winners turned out to be fashion industry flops because 650 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: they didn't have what it took to be on top. 651 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: But now I'm wondering if the show was a setup 652 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: all along. 653 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 14: America's Next Top Model is about dreams, plain and simple, 654 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 14: and it's about accomplishing these dreams through hard work and 655 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 14: talent and passion. I worked my boat off to get 656 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 14: to the top of the modeling industry, so I know 657 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 14: exactly what. 658 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 13: It takes to make the star. 659 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: Tyra wanted us to believe she was wholeheartedly invested in 660 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 1: making these contestants dreams come true. 661 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: I was rooting for you, We're all rooting for you 662 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: out damn you. 663 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: But after talking to the models and the people behind 664 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: the scenes, I'm not too sure. On this season, you're 665 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: going to hear from A ANDTM fans and critics, the 666 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: show's producers, and of course the models themselves. Being on 667 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model actually saved my life. 668 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 4: Did they even know that I was in debt after 669 00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 4: the show? 670 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: They just kept focusing on me being suicidal. To try 671 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 1: to figure out if A and TM was really cursed 672 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: and what that means for the models, judges, Tyra, and 673 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: us the audience. On the next episode, We're going back 674 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: to where it all began. Cycle one, a season that 675 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: looked like it was shot on a camcorder, yet somehow 676 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 1: launched a global franchise. We'll meet the very first contestants, 677 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: revisit the chaotic production, and uncover how A and TM 678 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: deceived us and the contestants. Right from the start. 679 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 3: Tyra Banks did not follow through on any of the winnings. 680 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. 681 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: We really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to 682 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: really show your support by subscribing to our show on 683 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to leave us a five 684 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: star rating and review. If you love the show, tell 685 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: your group, chat, your co workers, your friends, your mama 686 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: to check us out. And if you don't, maybe keep 687 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners. 688 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production 689 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in 690 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by 691 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. 692 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben 693 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: Fetterman and Andrea Gunny. Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcriy, 694 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers are Oliver Twist and Kate Taylor. 695 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kroncheck. Audio 696 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vecchio. 697 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme music was 698 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bain Music library provided by My Music 699 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially 700 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: the models for sharing their stories. And For more podcasts 701 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 702 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Also check out the Glass Podcast 703 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: Instagram at Glass Podcasts for Curse of America's Next Top Model, 704 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and more.