Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business. I'm Maria Konnikova. Nate
Speaker 1: is out today, but we are joined in his stead
Speaker 1: by a very special guest, a reality TV legend, the
Speaker 1: only person to appear on Survivor six times, five times
Speaker 1: as a contestant, one time as a winner. Although I
Speaker 1: would say twice as a winner because even the time
Speaker 1: that he lost, he met his future wife and they've
Speaker 1: now been married for over twenty years, so that to
Speaker 1: me counts as a win. He's also been on The
Speaker 1: Amazing Race Traders and Deal or No Deal Island, and
Speaker 1: Rob is a fellow poker player. He's known as a
Speaker 1: master strategist who blends cutthroat gameplay with irresistible social line stinks.
Speaker 1: Robert Mariano aka Boston Rob. Welcome to the show, Rob.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Maria. I'm a huge fan as well.
Speaker 2: I've been following your journey for the last few years.
Speaker 2: I actually came across your book and I know formerly
Speaker 2: we've never really interacted, but I'm looking forward to it
Speaker 2: at some point here in the future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, likewise likewise. Oh, and on a more personal note, Rob,
Speaker 1: I am a fellow Bostonian, though I grew up in
Speaker 1: the suburbs. Oh, not in the city, not a true Bostonian.
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, you don't have an accent. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I lived in the suburbs.
Speaker 2: Sorry.
Speaker 1: And you and I both studied psychology in college in Boston.
Speaker 1: So you went in a different direction with psychology, but
Speaker 1: we're both using it, I think, in very interactive and
Speaker 1: interesting ways. So let's start at the beginning of your journey.
Speaker 1: If that's okay with you. How do you get from
Speaker 1: you know, a psych major at BU to Survivor and
Speaker 1: to kind of the career that came to define you.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of a wild Glorian journey. But like,
Speaker 2: actually I went to Boston University five years graduated with
Speaker 2: a degree in psychology and made my parents really proud,
Speaker 2: and went to go work in construction because I love
Speaker 2: to work with my hands. I started off as a
Speaker 2: laborer for a stonemasonry company out in framing him and
Speaker 2: it just so happened that Survivor had just started. It
Speaker 2: was the year two thousand and it was the biggest
Speaker 2: hit and it was on TV and I had a
Speaker 2: girlfriend at the time who loved the show and wanted
Speaker 2: me to watch it. And I remember one day after work,
Speaker 2: we're watching the show and there was a kid that
Speaker 2: was on it. His name was Colby. It was the
Speaker 2: second season. He was like the all American guy and
Speaker 2: he was out there and he was doing the challenges
Speaker 2: and doing a great job. I remember sitting on my
Speaker 2: couch with my dad being like, I would kick his ass.
Speaker 2: My dad was just like, oh, yeah, you think you
Speaker 2: could do it, why don't you try? So I was like,
Speaker 2: all right, maybe I will, you know, so I sent
Speaker 2: in the application. One thing led to another. Who could have,
Speaker 2: like I would have never predicted twenty five years later,
Speaker 2: you know, the journey that it's taken me on. But
Speaker 2: I think I didn't actually use my psychology degree in
Speaker 2: the traditional way, but I kind of did use it,
Speaker 2: you know, through reality TV and poker and yeah, all
Speaker 2: these other competition games.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, it's funny. So you kind of started So
Speaker 1: let's put this in poker terms. You started as the
Speaker 1: chat pro, right, who's watching the professionals play on stream,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, I know how to play that
Speaker 1: hand so much better. And most chat bros, you know,
Speaker 1: they'd suck, right if you actually.
Speaker 2: Put the money.
Speaker 1: You were the one who actually was like, you know
Speaker 1: what I could do better? And you went and you
Speaker 1: kick their ass, So you actually did.
Speaker 2: I mean it was it did not. It took a
Speaker 2: little bit of time, but like I understood the meta
Speaker 2: of the game kind of before everybody else, even like
Speaker 2: the producers. I understood like not only the math of it,
Speaker 2: but the psychology behind it. And I think that's like
Speaker 2: really important and understanding these games that include not only
Speaker 2: the physical aspect but the social and the strategic aspects
Speaker 2: as well. And in that respect, I feel like I
Speaker 2: was a little bit ahead of you know, my peers
Speaker 2: from the beginning for sure. For sure.
Speaker 1: Well that's what interests me about you and about this
Speaker 1: is kind of the game theoretic aspect of it, right,
Speaker 1: kind of the meta strategy behind it. So when you
Speaker 1: were watching what was it? You know, what was your
Speaker 1: kind of big aha insight where you were like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I know what game this is and I know how
Speaker 1: to play it strategically on a higher level, because it's
Speaker 1: not like you were, oh, you know, I'm the best
Speaker 1: at survivor skills, right or something like that. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: understood kind of the actual mechanics the game. So can
Speaker 1: you talk me through a little bit about how you
Speaker 1: thought about it back then, and then I'd love to
Speaker 1: kind of talk through the evolution, you know, twenty five
Speaker 1: years later.
Speaker 2: Of course. Yeah. So in the beginning, you know, the
Speaker 2: game was fairly new, and it was two tribes of
Speaker 2: people on an island, and there was a survival aspect
Speaker 2: where you had to forage for your food and everything.
Speaker 2: But beyond the survival aspect of it, even though the
Speaker 2: name of the show is Survivor, there's a strategic aspect
Speaker 2: where whoever wins the challenge, the person that loses their
Speaker 2: team has to vote someone out. So traditionally, up until
Speaker 2: the point where I played the first time, the first
Speaker 2: three seasons had gone by My first season was the
Speaker 2: fourth season. The first three they tended to keep the
Speaker 2: strong athletic players because they felt that, you know, they
Speaker 2: would help to provide for the team the strength and
Speaker 2: the challenge. And I was kind of like the first
Speaker 2: one to realize it didn't matter how strong the team was.
Speaker 2: I needed people that I could control like chess pieces
Speaker 2: in order to get myself further. Because like the game,
Speaker 2: even though on the surface it looks like it's a
Speaker 2: team game, it's an individual game. The entire game is
Speaker 2: an individual game. So what was different was like in
Speaker 2: the beginning, there was a guy his name was Hunter
Speaker 2: this first season, and he was the All American Colby
Speaker 2: kind of guy, the fighter, pilot, the strength guy, the
Speaker 2: guy with the muscles, the voice of reason. He probably
Speaker 2: went to an IVY League school. He was a pilot.
Speaker 2: And I just said to myself, this guy's on my team.
Speaker 2: Everybody's listening to him. If I hide in the shadows
Speaker 2: behind him, eventually it'll get to the point where too
Speaker 2: many of people that I can become allied with, aligned
Speaker 2: with won't be there for me to get the numbers.
Speaker 2: So why not just get him out early? And nobody
Speaker 2: saw it, you know, And I knew by targeting him,
Speaker 2: I could gain respect and loyalty from other people in
Speaker 2: my tribe and use that strength moving forward. Now, Ultimately,
Speaker 2: that first season, there was a twist that happened. And
Speaker 2: sometimes this is a lot like poker too. Sometimes things
Speaker 2: happen throughout the course of your tournament or your game
Speaker 2: that you can't control and there's nothing you can do
Speaker 2: about it. And it was a twist where they decided
Speaker 2: to switch the tribes. So when they did so I
Speaker 2: got put on another tribe, and my numbers were I
Speaker 2: didn't have the strength and alliance numbers, so things kind
Speaker 2: of you know, went awry, and I wasn't able to
Speaker 2: execute all the way through that first season. But I
Speaker 2: understood the bigger picture, and I made myself a promise
Speaker 2: after that first season that if I ever got an
Speaker 2: opportunity to go back and play again, you know, because
Speaker 2: you have to understand, I was also twenty five years old.
Speaker 2: I was a kid from Boston. I went to an
Speaker 2: island in the middle of the South Pacific in the
Speaker 2: middle of the winter, and there's a lot of girls
Speaker 2: running around in bikinis and everything else. So I was
Speaker 2: distracted a little bit also, But I made myself the
Speaker 2: promise that if I went back, that I would execute
Speaker 2: on the correct game play. And I guess I chased
Speaker 2: a bikini that season two, which ultimately ended up being
Speaker 2: my wife. But I did so. I mean, specifically, I
Speaker 2: don't think there's one thing. I think I just understood
Speaker 2: the overall better than my competitors.
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a really key insight in there
Speaker 1: that you mentioned right at the beginning, which is kind
Speaker 1: of a misunderstanding of what game you're playing. Right, So
Speaker 1: if people think that they're playing a cooperative game, that's
Speaker 1: very different from if you realize that you're playing kind
Speaker 1: of something that is a little bit more zero sum.
Speaker 1: Right at the end, there is only one survivor, and
Speaker 1: that's what you're of course, what you're gunning for. And
Speaker 1: so I'm interested though because obviously you need to see
Speaker 1: some of it in positive some terms, right to kind
Speaker 1: of build those alliances and kind of get people to
Speaker 1: trust you. How do you how do you balance that
Speaker 1: right in your mind knowing that at the end you're
Speaker 1: playing just for yourself and it's an individual game, and
Speaker 1: yet you need to kind of have those cooperative elements
Speaker 1: along the way. How do you kind of how do
Speaker 1: you square that circle? And how do you kind of
Speaker 1: make it work for yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so as I played different seasons and as my
Speaker 2: game evolved, the strategy also evolved. Right. You got to
Speaker 2: remember I didn't win the first time I played. I
Speaker 2: am win the second time. It took me four times.
Speaker 2: I eventually won, but I never quit and I never
Speaker 2: gave up. Now you can make the argument, you know
Speaker 2: I did win the second time because I got to
Speaker 2: the end with my wife and we figured out a
Speaker 2: way to you know, game the system a little bit.
Speaker 2: But I think different people need to be treated differently
Speaker 2: in terms of how to quote unquote manipulate them. Different
Speaker 2: people are motivated by different things. If you want to
Speaker 2: understand how to get someone to do something, you have
Speaker 2: to understand what motivates them and what drives them. You know,
Speaker 2: almost all people are emotional to a certain level, but
Speaker 2: some people respond more to logic. Some people are ego based,
Speaker 2: you know, they're driven by their ego, So different people.
Speaker 2: I think the skill that I possess is being able
Speaker 2: to accurately identify which what I need to be for
Speaker 2: each person and who needs what, and give them what
Speaker 2: they need so that I'm able to build trust and
Speaker 2: do it in a way that they don't realize I'm
Speaker 2: doing it. And when I'm able to, then you know,
Speaker 2: you eat and they eat out of your hands and
Speaker 2: you do what you need to do. And I think
Speaker 2: some of that is intuitive and some of it is learned.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think you can go to school
Speaker 2: and study psychology and just know this. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of my background growing up in Boston, you know,
Speaker 2: coming from a street smart background and understanding people is
Speaker 2: what has helped me more than it helps other people. Additionally,
Speaker 2: I think you know, certain people are able to adapt
Speaker 2: to their situation and have more self awareness than others.
Speaker 2: I think those are the two skill sets which reign
Speaker 2: supreme not only in survivor and competitive reality, but also
Speaker 2: in poker. Right. It's a little bit philosophical by nature.
Speaker 2: It's not who I think I am. It's not who
Speaker 2: you think I am. It's who I think you think
Speaker 2: I am. And that literally translates into are you accurate
Speaker 2: about what your opponent thinks about you? And you have
Speaker 2: to be able to know it, and to know it
Speaker 2: to a certainty to be able to execute on it
Speaker 2: in order to manipulate without them knowing. I mean, the
Speaker 2: easiest way to tell if someone's lying to you, right
Speaker 2: is ask them a question you already know the answer
Speaker 2: to and see how they respond. It's so simple, right,
Speaker 2: and you set these little traps, you do it, and
Speaker 2: then it becomes second nature. The other thing I think
Speaker 2: that helps me a lot is I'm okay with confrontation.
Speaker 2: Like on Traders, I loved the table. I loved going
Speaker 2: to battle. Other people feared it, you know, and like
Speaker 2: you know, like at the poker table, you got to
Speaker 2: be a killer, right and you you have to have
Speaker 2: that aggression. Aggression one is dominant over being passive. If
Speaker 2: you sit there and wait for the game to come
Speaker 2: to you, sometimes you'll win sometimes, like people win Survivor
Speaker 2: by letting the game come to them. But for the
Speaker 2: most part, you're gonna get close and you're gonna taste it,
Speaker 2: but you're not going to get that victory as much
Speaker 2: as if you're aggressive. And I'm not afraid to be aggressive.
Speaker 2: I know when I need to take the shot, and
Speaker 2: a lot of that comes with experience, but like I
Speaker 2: also know, you know when to not worry about stuff
Speaker 2: you can't do anything about, like twisting the game. A
Speaker 2: long time ago, there was a poker show on TV
Speaker 2: called Poker After Dark and Doyle Brunston like did like
Speaker 2: the open monologue, and I remember he said, poker is
Speaker 2: not about winning or losing, It's about making the correct decision.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of truth in that, and there's a
Speaker 2: lot of truth in reality TV competition about making the
Speaker 2: correct decision and not worrying about what you can't do
Speaker 2: anything about. So that's always kind of been my philosophy,
Speaker 2: and it's like it's not like I knew everything from
Speaker 2: the beginning, Maria, but like, over time I've learned it
Speaker 2: and now I know it as fact.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, for sure, for sure now a lot
Speaker 1: a lot of what you're saying rings true for the
Speaker 1: poker player, some of what you're saying rings true. It's
Speaker 1: very funny. There's a thin line between a persuasion in
Speaker 1: the setting and con artists. So my second book was
Speaker 1: about confidence men, right, people who tricked people for a living.
Speaker 1: And obviously the main difference is when you do it
Speaker 1: in real life, it's nasty, right. If you're doing it
Speaker 1: in a game, it's part of gameplay, right, it's it's.
Speaker 2: Part There's a lot of a lot of parallels to
Speaker 2: relationships as well, And you gotta remember Survivor is a
Speaker 2: game of relationships, especially where you vote the people off
Speaker 2: and then after you vote them off, you have to
Speaker 2: ask them to vote for you in the end. So
Speaker 2: usually the way people win a one or two ways.
Speaker 2: Either a they're too mad at the other person, right
Speaker 2: and you're the lesser of the two evils, or or
Speaker 2: you know you've figured out a way to like gain
Speaker 2: their trust in some way, and they're the bigger person,
Speaker 2: but for the most part they run parallel the relationships,
Speaker 2: and you know, psychology and manipulation.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and then more own
Speaker 1: strategy and game theory with Boston Robb. It seems like
Speaker 1: your psychology background has actually served you remarkably well, right
Speaker 1: like that, that's actually probably the biggest tool that you have.
Speaker 1: And in this particular case, this is something that that
Speaker 1: poker doesn't have, but that you've think alluded to multiple
Speaker 1: multiple times. There's also attention, right and the ability to
Speaker 1: manipulate people's attention. And I think that that's really interesting
Speaker 1: because you know, that is such a crucial skill. I
Speaker 1: think in the present day, when there are so many
Speaker 1: things buying for attention, how do you actually influence people
Speaker 1: to pay attention right to what you want them to
Speaker 1: pay attention to and not to what they might be
Speaker 1: gravitating to you in the moment, like you So.
Speaker 2: In order for me to figure out how I get
Speaker 2: somebody to pay attention to someone something, I have to
Speaker 2: do it in a way that they're interested in it
Speaker 2: or they what would benefit them. So every story you
Speaker 2: tell when you're trying to push a theory one way
Speaker 2: or another, or an alliance or a vote or something.
Speaker 2: You have to do it through their eyes. A lot
Speaker 2: of people look singularly at a problem and they don't
Speaker 2: see it through their opponent's eyes. I think that's the
Speaker 2: biggest key to being able to do well in poker.
Speaker 2: You're supposed to think about what would they think right,
Speaker 2: what would my opponent think I'm doing in this spot.
Speaker 2: So you have to see the game through their eyes
Speaker 2: and what would benefit them. I can't propose a theory
Speaker 2: to you or a vote to you if it doesn't
Speaker 2: make sense to you. If I want to get someone
Speaker 2: get rid of somebody that's in your alliance, I have
Speaker 2: to either a create distrust in your mind, like that
Speaker 2: person came to me was coming to me to get
Speaker 2: you out, or be like, listen, I know you're aligned
Speaker 2: with her, but we have this other thing here and
Speaker 2: if you come with this, I promise we are going
Speaker 2: here and you have to actually believe it. So whatever
Speaker 2: theory I propose to you, it has to be good
Speaker 2: in your mind. And I don't think I don't think
Speaker 2: a lot of people are able to see the game
Speaker 2: through what's best for your opponent.
Speaker 1: I think that that's a crucial skill to have in
Speaker 1: any game, including poker. And also the self awareness to
Speaker 1: know what is your image to this particular person, right,
Speaker 1: not just what is your image at the table, but
Speaker 1: how does this person perceive you? I think that that
Speaker 1: is an absolutely crucial insight. You know something that I
Speaker 1: learned from my mentor Eric Sidell, when I'd ask him
Speaker 1: how would you play this spot? Right, like how would
Speaker 1: you play this hand? He said, that's the wrong question
Speaker 1: because I'm not you.
Speaker 2: Yes, So for me, this.
Speaker 1: Spot isn't the same as the exact same spot is
Speaker 1: for you. If I am in your seat with the
Speaker 1: same cards and the same action, it's a different spot
Speaker 1: because I'm a different person. I'm a different player, and
Speaker 1: people are thinking about me differently. Their strategy is different,
Speaker 1: their response is different. I can get away with some
Speaker 1: things you can't get away with. You can get away
Speaker 1: with some things I can't get away with. Right, different
Speaker 1: things look different coming from the two of us, And
Speaker 1: so that's how you have to think about, not how
Speaker 1: do you play the spot? And actually most players, even
Speaker 1: very good ones, not the best ones, but like solid
Speaker 1: ones don't go that extra step and they just look
Speaker 1: at you know the solver computerized output. This is how
Speaker 1: you play the spot, not realizing that in live poker
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist.
Speaker 2: That's why GTO is not like is not the end
Speaker 2: all be all, And that's true for in Survivor and
Speaker 2: stuff too. What maybe the correct decision right now might
Speaker 2: not be correct decision five minutes from now because your
Speaker 2: emotional state may have changed. There may be something going
Speaker 2: on where this is the move you would have made.
Speaker 2: This would have made the most sense to you now,
Speaker 2: but because XYZ happened all of a sudden, that's not
Speaker 2: true anymore. Like the biggest example of that I can
Speaker 2: give you is a lot of times when someone's blindsided
Speaker 2: on a vote at tribal console, meaning they were left
Speaker 2: out of the vote. They come back to camp that night.
Speaker 2: That is a super emotional and vulnerable time for them.
Speaker 2: And I know because I've had a lot of experience
Speaker 2: knowing that in that moment, depending on how I treat
Speaker 2: that person, I can either one hundred percent get them
Speaker 2: with me for the rest of the game, or I
Speaker 2: can alienate them for the rest of the game. I
Speaker 2: did it with Andrea Belki in Redemption Island the season
Speaker 2: I won. We ended up blindsiding her island boyfriend Matt.
Speaker 2: And she came back and she had no idea where
Speaker 2: to go, this way, this way, this way, like she
Speaker 2: had no idea, and she felt super vulnerable. But I
Speaker 2: went to her and I was like, listen, I know
Speaker 2: that you were tight with Matt, but I just got
Speaker 2: to tell you. We couldn't tell you about what was
Speaker 2: happening because we knew if you did that you'd react
Speaker 2: emotionally to it. But I promise you, he wasn't good
Speaker 2: for your game. He wasn't good for my game. He
Speaker 2: wasn't good for anyone. I still want to work with you.
Speaker 2: I still want to be in your alliance, and I like,
Speaker 2: you know, so being the comfort person even though she
Speaker 2: just had that happen and now being able to for
Speaker 2: the next three or four five votes in the row,
Speaker 2: build trust with her to show that that's actually true,
Speaker 2: you know, versus the other way she comes back, she's
Speaker 2: super vulnerable. We turned everybody against her. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: a super manipulative game, right if you know, if you
Speaker 2: understand it, and not everybody out there is thinking on
Speaker 2: that same level. But some people are so the people
Speaker 2: that are like yourself I could tell you're super in tune.
Speaker 2: You understand the psychology, you understand the gameplay. I would
Speaker 2: size you up real quick and either work with you
Speaker 2: or get rid of you right away well out of
Speaker 2: the depending on whether or not I felt like I
Speaker 2: could trust you and you'd work with me, or if
Speaker 2: you were going to be threatening to me. You know,
Speaker 2: that's how That's what we do at the poker table.
Speaker 2: That's what you do as soon as you hit the island.
Speaker 2: Every time you have to make judgments about people that
Speaker 2: you really don't know anything about. So you look at
Speaker 2: things beyond what there's coming out of their mouth. You
Speaker 2: look at their body language, their actions, because I truly
Speaker 2: believe the actions speak louder than words every time, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you know, you talk about building trust,
Speaker 1: and in that moment, do you actually have to kind
Speaker 1: of believe you're building trust even if you know like
Speaker 1: at the end you're going to be traitor right that
Speaker 1: you're doing it strategically?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look like you said, we all signed
Speaker 2: up for the same game. We all know one person's
Speaker 2: gonna win, so eventually everybody's gonna build trust except for
Speaker 2: the one person you're sitting there at the end with.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. If you understand the game on
Speaker 2: a basic level, you know, when you sit at the end,
Speaker 2: you want to sit at the end with two people
Speaker 2: that you can beat. Nobody wants to sit at the
Speaker 2: end about the person that's going to be a coin flip.
Speaker 2: You know, you want some of the you're eighty twenty,
Speaker 2: you got asis and they got kings, and you want
Speaker 2: to be a huge favorite at the end. So like,
Speaker 2: in a way, no, it's.
Speaker 1: Really interesting because you know, I'm just thinking about it,
Speaker 1: like in poker terms. Again, like if you're at a
Speaker 1: final table and there's like there are two recreational players
Speaker 1: and like some very good players, you're rooting for the
Speaker 1: recreational players, right because you want them to have the
Speaker 1: chips because you want to be against them at the end.
Speaker 2: You want to be a favorite against them at the end.
Speaker 1: You don't want one of the great players to win.
Speaker 1: Who you want to win change is obviously, you know
Speaker 1: in poker, it's different in the sense that you can't
Speaker 1: force them to get the chips, like it depends on
Speaker 1: depends on what happens. But in your mind, you can
Speaker 1: root for their success because it's always better to be
Speaker 1: heads up against the fish than to be heads up
Speaker 1: against the crusher.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of luck in all of the
Speaker 2: games as well, and I think that's often understated. You know,
Speaker 2: the one thing about me and the way I play
Speaker 2: is I understand the parameters, I understand the rules, I
Speaker 2: understand what I'm signing up for before I play. This
Speaker 2: is the game. Only one person's gonna win. So when
Speaker 2: it's over, I've always been like a good sport, I'll
Speaker 2: shake your hand. It's good I won, I lost, I
Speaker 2: did my best and that's all you can do.
Speaker 1: That's such a great attitude. Is that kind of would
Speaker 1: you say that that's kind of the secret or are
Speaker 1: there other things to your kind of resilience and your
Speaker 1: ability to kind of come back after you've lost. Right
Speaker 1: as you said, it took you four times to come
Speaker 1: back and a lot of people would just say screw
Speaker 1: this right like I'm done being humiliated on TV? How
Speaker 1: do you you know? Mentally? Is it just kind of
Speaker 1: enough to say, you know, I've been playing my best
Speaker 1: and I keep doing better and I'll just keep preparing.
Speaker 1: Is that how you frame it? Or do you have
Speaker 1: kind of other tricks for dealing with when you lose
Speaker 1: and when you know when it doesn't go your way,
Speaker 1: even though your strategy seemed to be solid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do
Speaker 2: with how I was raised. You know, like growing up
Speaker 2: in Boston, nobody's patting me on the back. You know,
Speaker 2: you didn't you don't win. Get in there, kid, and
Speaker 2: fight again. You know, get up, you get knocked down,
Speaker 2: get up. You gotta be tough. My parents raised me
Speaker 2: to be resilient. And you know, like I went out
Speaker 2: there the first time and I played my heart out,
Speaker 2: but I was also not as focused and then like
Speaker 2: I realized, oh man, I missed a big opportunity. Luckily,
Speaker 2: I made enough of an impact that I was given
Speaker 2: the opportunity to come back and play again. So I think,
Speaker 2: you know, like it's the same skill set in lessons
Speaker 2: I try to teach my own kids now, and that
Speaker 2: is like, if you want something, you have to fight
Speaker 2: for it, and you have to do your best. And
Speaker 2: if you do your best, if you really do, and
Speaker 2: the only person that knows if they do their best
Speaker 2: is themselves. And if you do do your best, that's
Speaker 2: all you can do. You can be proud of yourself.
Speaker 2: So like with Traders, like I knew I was up
Speaker 2: against it, they did me no favors the way they
Speaker 2: started the game. They put me on a pedestal like
Speaker 2: I have a target anyway. And at first I'm like, oh, man,
Speaker 2: like this is gonna be really hard. It's like yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's gonna be really hard. And the truth is
Speaker 2: like I love the challenge and I feel like I
Speaker 2: don't know, it's like a sickness or whatever, but I
Speaker 2: do better under pressure. Like a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: like the pressure. I need the pressure like I do.
Speaker 2: I needed to perform.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting because I was actually going to ask
Speaker 1: you about kind of your mental game and how you
Speaker 1: maintain your cool under you under pressure right in those
Speaker 1: lights is what I studied. So for my graduate degree
Speaker 1: in psychology, I actually studied hot decision making, right decision
Speaker 1: making under emotional conditions, and which is it tells you
Speaker 1: a lot about a person. And it's very different right
Speaker 1: from decision making when you have lots of time and
Speaker 1: there are there is a subset of person who performs
Speaker 1: really well right under kind of under the lights, under
Speaker 1: those hot conditions. It's a really interesting skill, and I'm curious,
Speaker 1: do you feel like you've improved at that or that's
Speaker 1: something that you've just always been good at.
Speaker 2: I just think like in general, as time goes on,
Speaker 2: people get more life experience. So once you have more
Speaker 2: life experience, once you're adept at doing this stuff, and
Speaker 2: it's like you playing poker against a bunch of people, Like, yes,
Speaker 2: there's a chance they could get super lucky and win,
Speaker 2: it's unlikely over the course of an entire tournament that
Speaker 2: they'll beat you, because like you have the time to
Speaker 2: be able to execute the correct moves and you're going
Speaker 2: to catch them out there with two pair when you
Speaker 2: have a set or whatever. It is like you know
Speaker 2: enough not to put your whole game at risk against
Speaker 2: a bunch of amateurs because you'll be able to find
Speaker 2: the spots right. So as time has gone by, I
Speaker 2: understand the nuances of not only the competition aspect, but
Speaker 2: the production aspect too, Like the time it takes, how
Speaker 2: long it takes to do this, Like when you have
Speaker 2: to make a move. One of the biggest mistakes I
Speaker 2: see time and time again with poker players that try
Speaker 2: to translate to reality TV competition. It's like when you're
Speaker 2: playing a tournament and trying to win the tournament in
Speaker 2: the first level, like they play too good, too fast,
Speaker 2: like they got something to prove. There's no way you
Speaker 2: can't win. You play in a four day tournament. You
Speaker 2: got to last four days to be able to win.
Speaker 2: So I don't care how great your spot is. In
Speaker 2: level two, someone puts you to the test, like you
Speaker 2: have to ask, if it's not a rebuy tournament, is
Speaker 2: it worth really the risk versus reward? And I think
Speaker 2: that's a lot of what I'm able to bring to
Speaker 2: the table when it comes to these competitions is being
Speaker 2: able to balance and understanding the risk versus the reward
Speaker 2: versus someone that's never done it before, they don't have
Speaker 2: that experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that's I think that's a absolutely crucial skill.
Speaker 1: And in poker, you know, knowing picking those spots is
Speaker 1: incredibly important, and you know, sometimes you find yourself struggling
Speaker 1: with it because you really want to take the spot
Speaker 1: and like you have two people in your head talking
Speaker 1: being like no, like, don't do it. Especially you know,
Speaker 1: if it's not a rebuy tournament, you do have to
Speaker 1: think is it worth it? Even if it's a rebuy tournament.
Speaker 1: You know, there's an element of luck, and I think
Speaker 1: that we can translate this somewhat to reality TV. How's
Speaker 1: your table, drap, Right? Who are the other people at
Speaker 1: your table? There might be some tables of crushers and
Speaker 1: you're at a table with all amateurs, right, And you
Speaker 1: think about if I take this spot right now and
Speaker 1: I bust, I'm going to rebuy onto a different table,
Speaker 1: and my EV is going to go down because my
Speaker 1: IV at this table is much higher. It's like the
Speaker 1: first season of Traders, right, I'm playing against a field
Speaker 1: of inexperienced players, and instead I might get you at
Speaker 1: my table next time around, right, and be in a
Speaker 1: much worse situation. And so sometimes emotion or the pressure
Speaker 1: or whatever it gets the better of you and you
Speaker 1: take a spot. Even that technically it's plus it's minus
Speaker 1: CV in the long term, because the EV isn't just
Speaker 1: the math, right.
Speaker 2: Being able to recognize that is super important because they're
Speaker 2: also the opposite is true. So like to me, sometimes
Speaker 2: there's an opportunity to take a spot where it's gonna
Speaker 2: make all the difference, but other people are fearful of
Speaker 2: taking that spot. And I've seen it time and time
Speaker 2: again and survivor where this is your moment. Your moment
Speaker 2: isn't at the final three. Your moment is at six
Speaker 2: and you gotta do something now. But you know, if
Speaker 2: you kne what you make this move that you have
Speaker 2: to make now, it's gonna set you up to win,
Speaker 2: where if you don't, the best you're gonna do is
Speaker 2: second or third. You might get to the end, but
Speaker 2: you lose it. So I think knowing when to take
Speaker 2: the shot is the most important. Like you have to
Speaker 2: can't be afraid. I've always said to me, it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter if I finished seventh or tenth or fourteenth or second.
Speaker 2: I'm playing to win. So you have to set yourself
Speaker 2: up to win. With the bob the drag queen stuff.
Speaker 2: People say like, yeah, you could have made it early.
Speaker 2: You didn't have to make that move so early. Maybe
Speaker 2: I didn't, Maybe I could have figured out another way,
Speaker 2: But in my mind at the time, that was a
Speaker 2: correct decision. And being able to know when it is
Speaker 2: even if you're fearful of it and execute on it
Speaker 2: is imperative.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. It's funny, you know now that
Speaker 1: I think about it, because I was like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't do a lot of the stuff that you
Speaker 1: know Rob does on reality TV. But now that I
Speaker 1: think about it, I actually talk to players much more
Speaker 1: than other people do at the table, but because I'm
Speaker 1: friendly and you know, I want to be a welcoming,
Speaker 1: good ambassador. But they also give me very valuable information
Speaker 1: because they'll tell me, oh, you know, this is my
Speaker 1: wife's birthday present to me to be in this tournament,
Speaker 1: and like this is my one tournament of kind of
Speaker 1: and I'm really excited versus you know, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you know, tournament number twenty and right away you know
Speaker 1: how important it is for them, right what the stakes are.
Speaker 2: It's important to know that on the beach. We do
Speaker 2: that in the downtime where we learn about the people,
Speaker 2: their families, everything. You know. I've been working a lot
Speaker 2: with Chance Cornet over the last few years and he's
Speaker 2: like a huge proponent of you make a day too.
Speaker 2: You look up the people, you find out their stats,
Speaker 2: you learn about them as much as you can. Yes,
Speaker 2: So it's not like I think poker has moved away
Speaker 2: from the social element as much in terms of like
Speaker 2: there's not as much chattiness and conversations at the table
Speaker 2: at the higher stakes anymore. I mean you still find
Speaker 2: it in like the local like small wreck games and stuff.
Speaker 2: So you have to be able to be willing to
Speaker 2: put in the extra work to do that. And what
Speaker 2: you're saying like that's unbelievable, like you're doing recon on
Speaker 2: your opponents.
Speaker 1: You have to do it in the moment when you can.
Speaker 1: And yes, absolutely, I think it's a huge You're just
Speaker 1: leaving money on the table if you don't take the
Speaker 1: time to research your tablemates from day two on. And
Speaker 1: a lot of times people don't, right, they don't look
Speaker 1: up their seat draft where they're lazy or they're tired
Speaker 1: because you played to you know, one am and you
Speaker 1: want to maximize your sleep. You don't want to take
Speaker 1: that hour or however long it takes. But it's always
Speaker 1: worth it, I know, every single time, because you learn
Speaker 1: so much and that's what.
Speaker 2: You become obsessive about it. So let me ask you
Speaker 2: a question, because you went from journalists to poker player, like,
Speaker 2: do you think there's a point where it becomes too encompassing?
Speaker 2: Because my relationship with poker has been like this over
Speaker 2: the last you know, my whole life. Really, I love it.
Speaker 2: I have time, I want to play, I want to
Speaker 2: do it. I'm into it. But at some point, it's
Speaker 2: like when I hear about like the eve of sleeping
Speaker 2: in this hotel at that hotel, Like it becomes like
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, I'm going to play a tournament that
Speaker 2: costs ten thousand, I'm going to sleep in a good hotel.
Speaker 2: I'm going to order room service. Like, you know, the
Speaker 2: lifestyle itself, it can become too encompassing where every decision
Speaker 2: outside of that becomes about it. Do you find yourself
Speaker 2: falling into that now?
Speaker 1: I mean, I try to maintain balance because it isn't,
Speaker 1: you know, my full time career. Like I'm working on
Speaker 1: my next book right now, I have this podcast, I have,
Speaker 1: you know, I read a weekly substock, Like I'm working
Speaker 1: on a bunch of screen projects. So I have a
Speaker 1: lot of other things going on at the same time.
Speaker 1: So I think that helps me kind of maintain perspective.
Speaker 1: And for me, I try to kind of think of
Speaker 1: poker as something that I love that teaches me a
Speaker 1: lot about decision making, and that's constantly helping, right because
Speaker 1: it's still I think it is still teaching me things
Speaker 1: about myself. About the decision making process. And I'm still
Speaker 1: evolving as a thinker in ways that help outside of
Speaker 1: the poker world. So I feel like it's still giving
Speaker 1: a lot to me. And I think that it's a
Speaker 1: game that is incredibly powerful for other people. Right, I
Speaker 1: want it to be a popular game because I think
Speaker 1: it could help me.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1: I want you to teach your daughter's poker because I
Speaker 1: think it would help make them smarter kind of better
Speaker 1: players right at life?
Speaker 2: Right? Better? Yeah, of course it does. It does. Like
Speaker 2: poker is a game that's super relevant in the business world,
Speaker 2: in negotiating, in understanding discipline. There's so many different attributes
Speaker 2: that the game helps in life. At the same time,
Speaker 2: it has a horrible reputation it does, I know from
Speaker 2: the world the television, Like any time I try to
Speaker 2: bring up any project that includes it, it has this
Speaker 2: stigma attached to it. And I think it's because and
Speaker 2: you can tell me why you think. But like, there
Speaker 2: are lots of great things about the game of poker,
Speaker 2: but there are some people that ruin it for everyone
Speaker 2: else in terms of collusion, cheating, real time assistants, all
Speaker 2: these different other things that involve in it. And then
Speaker 2: When people hear that, they don't want anything to do
Speaker 2: with it, because, let's face it, on a basic level,
Speaker 2: everybody understands risks verus reward. Smart people invest in the
Speaker 2: stock market, some people are buying lottery tickets, people are
Speaker 2: betting on football games with their friends. What is it
Speaker 2: about poker that gives it such a bad connotation?
Speaker 1: So I think it's actually kind of historical, and I
Speaker 1: think that it comes from kind of a puritanical kind
Speaker 1: of background to American culture, where they bucket it in
Speaker 1: with vice.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: They see it as kind of a casino game where
Speaker 1: it's not right. I always try to explain to people
Speaker 1: that it's actually different from every other game in a casino,
Speaker 1: because every game in a casino is gambling, and poker
Speaker 1: at the end is a skill game with an element
Speaker 1: of luck, because in poker, you can win holding the
Speaker 1: worst hand and you can lose holding the best hand,
Speaker 1: and that's the definition of skill, whereas in any other
Speaker 1: game in the casino you have to have the best.
Speaker 2: Of it right. You can't.
Speaker 1: You can't beat the house if you don't have the
Speaker 1: best hand.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of their strategy, of course, but that
Speaker 1: it's kind of how the chips fall, how the how
Speaker 1: the ball rolls, how the cards fall.
Speaker 2: They have a built in edge obviously that makes it you.
Speaker 1: Know, negative exactly, but poker.
Speaker 2: So what needs to happen? Does it need to come
Speaker 2: out of the casino?
Speaker 1: So I think that that's that's part of it. But
Speaker 1: I think also having good spokespeople for it, who try
Speaker 1: to explain to people that what it actually is and
Speaker 1: what it can actually bring is part of the part
Speaker 1: of the journey. But it's an uphill batter and it's
Speaker 1: one that you know, with the biggest bluff I.
Speaker 2: Tried to fight. I was kind of the.
Speaker 1: Beginning of it, and I continue to do it my
Speaker 1: next book, you know, to your point about kind of
Speaker 1: the negative elements in poker, I think that's also a factor.
Speaker 1: My next book is about cheating in games. And so
Speaker 1: because I actually am a firm believer that sunlight, you know,
Speaker 1: is the best disinfectant, that's actually a very good saying,
Speaker 1: because it makes the game stronger and better if people
Speaker 1: know that cheaters are held accountable, that this kind of
Speaker 1: thing is actually frowned upon, that it's not an accepted
Speaker 1: part of the game, and that the game, you know,
Speaker 1: that you will be that you'll be safe because the
Speaker 1: game cares right and it will and.
Speaker 2: Every other aspect of life if you cheat their concerts
Speaker 2: exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: And I'm not just writing about poker. I'm writing about
Speaker 1: all games. And I think that you know, that's the
Speaker 1: reason I'm interested in it is kind of the life
Speaker 1: app applicability, right, because all of life is kind of
Speaker 1: a game, if you think about it.
Speaker 2: The rules.
Speaker 1: We live in a society that has rules and you
Speaker 1: live by those rules. And when the rules start changing
Speaker 1: or people don't get punished for breaking the rules, you know,
Speaker 1: that's eyebrow raising I'm concerning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the problem is sometimes the rules are not so
Speaker 2: well defined, right in a game like poker, where you're
Speaker 2: rewarded for pushing the edge. It's like what is acceptable
Speaker 2: what isn't acceptable? And I'm not talking about like what
Speaker 2: beats what or whether you use something or not, but
Speaker 2: like you know, a lot of areas are gray, and
Speaker 2: sometimes things are frowned upon where other ways it's considered.
Speaker 2: You know, they're applauded for their outside the box thinking.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So it's you know the difference in sportsmanship versus gamesmanship. Right,
Speaker 1: So are you a good sportsman, and sometimes gamesmanship flies
Speaker 1: in the face of that. And there are areas of
Speaker 1: gray right, shades of gray angle shooting and poker, for instance.
Speaker 1: And you know what I say is I hate it.
Speaker 1: I hate angle shooters. But change the rules if you
Speaker 1: actually want to punish them, because when they're not breaking
Speaker 1: the rules, they're technically still within the rules of the game.
Speaker 1: I personally wouldn't do it and really look down on it,
Speaker 1: but you can't do anything right if it's within the rules.
Speaker 2: I'm a strong proponent of whatever you can do within
Speaker 2: the context of the game. I've done it on the
Speaker 2: Amazing Race. I use their own rules against them with
Speaker 2: the meat eating challenge and understanding what the penalty was,
Speaker 2: and then knowing that if I got other teams to
Speaker 2: also quit the challenge, that I would still be ahead.
Speaker 2: And they're scratching their heads and they're mad on the sidelines,
Speaker 2: and it's like I think, maybe after they change the rules,
Speaker 2: but like they're you know, at one point I bribed
Speaker 2: a bus driver. I took a collection of people's money
Speaker 2: and bribed them with their money and didn't put my
Speaker 2: own in. But I didn't say I was going to
Speaker 2: It's funny.
Speaker 1: So you're very good gamesman as well. Right, So it's
Speaker 1: a really interesting thing. I mean, some of the best
Speaker 1: athletes are very good at gamesmanship. Right, I've written about
Speaker 1: and he'll go in my buck Tiger Woods for instance.
Speaker 1: You know, he's had some really eyebrow raising moments where
Speaker 1: he's used the rule book technically correctly. You know, he
Speaker 1: didn't cheat, but at some point, like he had a
Speaker 1: boulder moved using the loose impediments rule. The rule ended
Speaker 1: up changing after he did that, but it was like,
Speaker 1: holy shit, dude, you know you can't do that, but
Speaker 1: like he was technically within the rules.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so so much. I mean, it's like the
Speaker 2: ballplayer on first base its fakes to throw it back
Speaker 2: to the pitcher and then tags them out, like you know,
Speaker 2: like I don't know. I think like if someone's ingenuitive
Speaker 2: to figure out a creative way to gain an edge
Speaker 2: with in the context of the rules, I personally think
Speaker 2: that should be applauded. There's a lot of gray area,
Speaker 2: but it depends.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, So what do you think kind of
Speaker 1: you know, we just talked about poker and kind of
Speaker 1: the huge value that it can give in terms of
Speaker 1: thinking to say making So, since you're both a poker
Speaker 1: player and I don't know a player of reality TV,
Speaker 1: do you think that the reality TV has kind of
Speaker 1: as much educational value or kind of value and decision making?
Speaker 1: Like would you I just said you should, you know,
Speaker 1: teach your girls poker if you haven't already, I'm sure
Speaker 1: you have already, Like would you want them to like
Speaker 1: do you think that would you recommend for them to
Speaker 1: go on survivor for instance right as well? Like do
Speaker 1: you think that that is something that is important or
Speaker 1: or is it different?
Speaker 2: So I think this because the experience I had the
Speaker 2: season that I won that was one of the youngest
Speaker 2: girls ever was on the show. Her name was Natalie Tenarelli.
Speaker 2: I think she was only nineteen at the time, and
Speaker 2: I don't think she had enough life experience to be
Speaker 2: able to navigate that situation, especially playing with someone like
Speaker 2: me and other people that were older that understood that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, and she was very naive. I ended
Speaker 2: up going all the way to the end with her
Speaker 2: because I knew I a beater and everything, and I
Speaker 2: just like it was still good friends to this day.
Speaker 2: But I think my girls, I'm giving them the foundation
Speaker 2: to make good decisions, to understand theory, to understand that.
Speaker 2: But I think there's not a replacement for life experience
Speaker 2: that would Let's put it this way, as soon as
Speaker 2: they turn eighteen and they're able to go on it,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have them sign up. But if they wanted
Speaker 2: to do it when they were twenty three, twenty four
Speaker 2: to twenty five, I would absolutely encourage them to do it.
Speaker 2: But I think there is a threshold where you have
Speaker 2: to have some kind of ups and downs and experience
Speaker 2: outside of the safety of my home with me, you know,
Speaker 2: on your own, to be able to handle the adversity
Speaker 2: that you're going to face out there with seventeen eighteen
Speaker 2: different other personalities. That's really interesting.
Speaker 1: So poker in a way can be a training tool
Speaker 1: for something like that as well, because poker is something
Speaker 1: that gives you a lot of that kind of experience,
Speaker 1: but not the other way around. I actually briefly chatted
Speaker 1: with you, did not compete against her, but with another
Speaker 1: member of traders who got really excited that I was
Speaker 1: talking to you. Yenja Westgate. She's from Swedish. She did
Speaker 1: the Swedish Traders. She kind of was interested in whether
Speaker 1: how other games compare right, and how your background in
Speaker 1: other games compared to that, and also kind of the
Speaker 1: difficult things that the cameras don't capture right that go
Speaker 1: on behind the scenes, which I think is really interesting,
Speaker 1: Like the stuff that no one sees, I think is
Speaker 1: probably just as important as the stuff that we do see.
Speaker 2: Well, you have to understand is you go on to
Speaker 2: make a TV show. You're playing a game, but they're
Speaker 2: going to film everything and to be cognizant of the
Speaker 2: person that you want to be represented as. They don't
Speaker 2: go outside of their way to make you a villain.
Speaker 2: If you're not a villain, they're not going to in
Speaker 2: the same sentence, like make you into this heroic character.
Speaker 2: If you're not, they pretty much stick to the script
Speaker 2: of what you give them to me. Definitely, all of
Speaker 2: the games have helped different games because I've learned from
Speaker 2: each of them. You know, I don't know that one
Speaker 2: is perhaps the best training ground for the others. But
Speaker 2: Survivor is the realist of any of the games. And
Speaker 2: when I say the realist, I mean you're actually out
Speaker 2: there starving. You go days without food, You're living on
Speaker 2: an island, you get no help there's no production interference.
Speaker 2: There is no time the camera's ever turned off. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's like it is the real deal. There's never
Speaker 2: been another show that I've done that's compared to the
Speaker 2: immersive experience that Survivor is. Traders, on the flip side,
Speaker 2: is filmed more like a movie. It's a production. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of stopping and starting. There are still rules
Speaker 2: and they're still in ten and production still you know,
Speaker 2: maintains that. But they're twenty hour days sometimes if you're
Speaker 2: a trader, eighteen to twenty hours. You know, like you
Speaker 2: started eight in the morning and you go till three
Speaker 2: and four in the morning on a lot of days.
Speaker 2: But there's stops and starts. There's makeup, there's lunch, there's
Speaker 2: other things, where with Survivor it's there's never an off button.
Speaker 2: It's on until if you win or get it towards snuffed,
Speaker 2: that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would, I would. I would definitely die. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would not survive Survivor.
Speaker 2: I know that about me. I will because of the
Speaker 2: physical part. Yeah. Yeah, you'd be surprised after three days
Speaker 2: you're not even hungry. Most people don't miss a meal.
Speaker 2: If you go three days the hunger pains go away,
Speaker 2: and you're so focused on the strategy. I would always
Speaker 2: like look around to be like there is other people
Speaker 2: here that are doing it, Like you can't complain, Like
Speaker 2: don't cry, Like these people are doing the same thing
Speaker 2: you're doing. That's good.
Speaker 1: So I'm really curious to know kind of given all
Speaker 1: of this, you know, and all of your background and
Speaker 1: kind of how you how you're thinking has evolved. The
Speaker 1: logical question is kind of the what's next. Are you
Speaker 1: going to kind of continue this reality TV evolution, you know,
Speaker 1: survivor fifty or whatever it might be, or are you
Speaker 1: thinking about doing doing something of your own, you know
Speaker 1: what's in your mind.
Speaker 2: I've always been a super spontaneous person and I kind
Speaker 2: of always do what I feel like. I went to
Speaker 2: go work construction after going to college, I tried out
Speaker 2: for a show, and there have been times in between
Speaker 2: like the reality TV stuff where like I still do construction.
Speaker 2: I have houses, I renovate, did a renovation show on
Speaker 2: teap which came up. But like, uh, I try to
Speaker 2: balance my life and built a life where I do
Speaker 2: and live exactly like what I want, and like for that,
Speaker 2: I'm super fortunate you know, like I might go play
Speaker 2: poker one weekend. I might you know, work on a
Speaker 2: house or a project over here. I might do a
Speaker 2: reality show. I might go on vacation with my family.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I've never really planned, you know. I
Speaker 2: just know that I'm not the kind of guy that
Speaker 2: would ever sit in an office and go to a
Speaker 2: nine to five. And there's something about not knowing what
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do that's exciting and like it's wild. They say,
Speaker 2: opposite's a tract. My wife is the complete opposite. He
Speaker 2: works as an admissions director for a school. She goes
Speaker 2: while the kids are at school, and it works. It
Speaker 2: works for us, you know. And I think that balance
Speaker 2: of figuring out and not knowing is like what, like, uh,
Speaker 2: what I enjoy?
Speaker 1: I think that that's a that's a beautiful answer because
Speaker 1: one of the skills that I try to get people
Speaker 1: to embrace is embracing uncertainty, right and embracing the unknown.
Speaker 1: I think that that's something that it's a gift that
Speaker 1: poker gives you that ability. And I think that being
Speaker 1: open and willing to kind of take the opportunities that
Speaker 1: life throws at you without being married to any given
Speaker 1: path is is incredibly important and probably one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why you're so good at reality TV. Yeah, thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Rob for for your time. This was amazing.
Speaker 1: I feel like I have a million other questions that
Speaker 1: I could ask you.
Speaker 2: Well, now that we're friends, we'll figure it out. Okay,
Speaker 2: sounds good.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me, and good luck
Speaker 1: on whatever comes next, even though you don't know what
Speaker 1: that might be.
Speaker 2: Thanks Maria.
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm.
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Speaker 1: me Maria Kanikova and by my fabulous co host, Nate Silver.
Speaker 1: The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer
Speaker 1: is Sonia Gerwick. Sally Helm is our editor, and our
Speaker 1: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. If
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Speaker 2: In a typical posting, Will foll