WEBVTT - The Game Theory of Reality TV (with Boston Rob) 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:29.964 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business. I'm Maria Konnikova. Nate 0:00:30.044 --> 0:00:32.084 is out today, but we are joined in his stead 0:00:32.164 --> 0:00:37.084 by a very special guest, a reality TV legend, the 0:00:37.124 --> 0:00:41.524 only person to appear on Survivor six times, five times 0:00:41.524 --> 0:00:44.284 as a contestant, one time as a winner. Although I 0:00:44.324 --> 0:00:46.964 would say twice as a winner because even the time 0:00:47.004 --> 0:00:49.684 that he lost, he met his future wife and they've 0:00:49.724 --> 0:00:52.404 now been married for over twenty years, so that to 0:00:52.484 --> 0:00:56.124 me counts as a win. He's also been on The 0:00:56.204 --> 0:01:01.644 Amazing Race Traders and Deal or No Deal Island, and 0:01:01.964 --> 0:01:04.324 Rob is a fellow poker player. He's known as a 0:01:04.444 --> 0:01:09.924 master strategist who blends cutthroat gameplay with irresistible social line stinks. 0:01:10.444 --> 0:01:16.844 Robert Mariano aka Boston Rob. Welcome to the show, Rob. 0:01:16.924 --> 0:01:19.484 Thank you so much. Maria. I'm a huge fan as well. 0:01:19.524 --> 0:01:22.564 I've been following your journey for the last few years. 0:01:22.644 --> 0:01:26.444 I actually came across your book and I know formerly 0:01:26.564 --> 0:01:30.324 we've never really interacted, but I'm looking forward to it 0:01:30.364 --> 0:01:31.724 at some point here in the future. 0:01:31.844 --> 0:01:36.124 Yeah, likewise likewise. Oh, and on a more personal note, Rob, 0:01:36.164 --> 0:01:38.284 I am a fellow Bostonian, though I grew up in 0:01:38.324 --> 0:01:41.684 the suburbs. Oh, not in the city, not a true Bostonian. 0:01:41.764 --> 0:01:43.484 Everyone's like, you don't have an accent. I was like, yeah, 0:01:43.524 --> 0:01:44.524 I lived in the suburbs. 0:01:44.564 --> 0:01:46.204 Sorry. 0:01:46.244 --> 0:01:50.004 And you and I both studied psychology in college in Boston. 0:01:50.124 --> 0:01:53.844 So you went in a different direction with psychology, but 0:01:53.884 --> 0:01:57.724 we're both using it, I think, in very interactive and 0:01:57.804 --> 0:02:01.724 interesting ways. So let's start at the beginning of your journey. 0:02:01.724 --> 0:02:03.924 If that's okay with you. How do you get from 0:02:04.204 --> 0:02:08.604 you know, a psych major at BU to Survivor and 0:02:08.804 --> 0:02:11.564 to kind of the career that came to define you. 0:02:12.884 --> 0:02:17.404 So it's kind of a wild Glorian journey. But like, 0:02:17.964 --> 0:02:21.404 actually I went to Boston University five years graduated with 0:02:21.444 --> 0:02:25.204 a degree in psychology and made my parents really proud, 0:02:25.204 --> 0:02:28.284 and went to go work in construction because I love 0:02:28.364 --> 0:02:30.924 to work with my hands. I started off as a 0:02:31.044 --> 0:02:35.884 laborer for a stonemasonry company out in framing him and 0:02:37.084 --> 0:02:40.204 it just so happened that Survivor had just started. It 0:02:40.284 --> 0:02:43.084 was the year two thousand and it was the biggest 0:02:43.124 --> 0:02:45.164 hit and it was on TV and I had a 0:02:45.204 --> 0:02:48.804 girlfriend at the time who loved the show and wanted 0:02:48.844 --> 0:02:52.164 me to watch it. And I remember one day after work, 0:02:52.244 --> 0:02:55.524 we're watching the show and there was a kid that 0:02:55.724 --> 0:02:57.764 was on it. His name was Colby. It was the 0:02:57.884 --> 0:03:00.964 second season. He was like the all American guy and 0:03:01.004 --> 0:03:03.404 he was out there and he was doing the challenges 0:03:03.444 --> 0:03:06.044 and doing a great job. I remember sitting on my 0:03:06.124 --> 0:03:09.004 couch with my dad being like, I would kick his ass. 0:03:09.604 --> 0:03:11.844 My dad was just like, oh, yeah, you think you 0:03:11.884 --> 0:03:14.484 could do it, why don't you try? So I was like, 0:03:14.524 --> 0:03:16.924 all right, maybe I will, you know, so I sent 0:03:17.044 --> 0:03:21.204 in the application. One thing led to another. Who could have, 0:03:21.364 --> 0:03:24.284 like I would have never predicted twenty five years later, 0:03:24.524 --> 0:03:27.084 you know, the journey that it's taken me on. But 0:03:27.204 --> 0:03:32.964 I think I didn't actually use my psychology degree in 0:03:33.044 --> 0:03:36.444 the traditional way, but I kind of did use it, 0:03:36.564 --> 0:03:39.684 you know, through reality TV and poker and yeah, all 0:03:39.684 --> 0:03:41.244 these other competition games. 0:03:41.284 --> 0:03:45.084 Absolutely absolutely, it's funny. So you kind of started So 0:03:45.164 --> 0:03:47.724 let's put this in poker terms. You started as the 0:03:47.844 --> 0:03:52.004 chat pro, right, who's watching the professionals play on stream, 0:03:52.004 --> 0:03:54.164 and you're like, oh, I know how to play that 0:03:54.244 --> 0:03:56.804 hand so much better. And most chat bros, you know, 0:03:56.924 --> 0:03:58.804 they'd suck, right if you actually. 0:03:58.524 --> 0:03:59.484 Put the money. 0:03:59.604 --> 0:04:01.684 You were the one who actually was like, you know 0:04:01.724 --> 0:04:04.484 what I could do better? And you went and you 0:04:04.564 --> 0:04:06.164 kick their ass, So you actually did. 0:04:06.364 --> 0:04:08.804 I mean it was it did not. It took a 0:04:08.804 --> 0:04:12.684 little bit of time, but like I understood the meta 0:04:12.804 --> 0:04:15.924 of the game kind of before everybody else, even like 0:04:15.964 --> 0:04:20.124 the producers. I understood like not only the math of it, 0:04:20.324 --> 0:04:23.124 but the psychology behind it. And I think that's like 0:04:23.324 --> 0:04:29.484 really important and understanding these games that include not only 0:04:29.564 --> 0:04:34.244 the physical aspect but the social and the strategic aspects 0:04:34.324 --> 0:04:37.284 as well. And in that respect, I feel like I 0:04:37.364 --> 0:04:40.324 was a little bit ahead of you know, my peers 0:04:40.364 --> 0:04:42.164 from the beginning for sure. For sure. 0:04:42.164 --> 0:04:44.964 Well that's what interests me about you and about this 0:04:45.084 --> 0:04:47.284 is kind of the game theoretic aspect of it, right, 0:04:47.644 --> 0:04:51.324 kind of the meta strategy behind it. So when you 0:04:51.364 --> 0:04:54.004 were watching what was it? You know, what was your 0:04:54.204 --> 0:04:56.604 kind of big aha insight where you were like, Okay, 0:04:56.724 --> 0:04:58.964 I know what game this is and I know how 0:04:58.964 --> 0:05:02.044 to play it strategically on a higher level, because it's 0:05:02.084 --> 0:05:04.364 not like you were, oh, you know, I'm the best 0:05:04.364 --> 0:05:07.284 at survivor skills, right or something like that. Yeah, you 0:05:07.364 --> 0:05:10.484 understood kind of the actual mechanics the game. So can 0:05:10.524 --> 0:05:12.644 you talk me through a little bit about how you 0:05:12.724 --> 0:05:14.724 thought about it back then, and then I'd love to 0:05:15.084 --> 0:05:17.564 kind of talk through the evolution, you know, twenty five 0:05:17.604 --> 0:05:18.444 years later. 0:05:18.564 --> 0:05:21.924 Of course. Yeah. So in the beginning, you know, the 0:05:21.964 --> 0:05:24.604 game was fairly new, and it was two tribes of 0:05:24.644 --> 0:05:28.684 people on an island, and there was a survival aspect 0:05:28.764 --> 0:05:31.164 where you had to forage for your food and everything. 0:05:31.204 --> 0:05:34.524 But beyond the survival aspect of it, even though the 0:05:34.604 --> 0:05:38.204 name of the show is Survivor, there's a strategic aspect 0:05:38.244 --> 0:05:42.844 where whoever wins the challenge, the person that loses their 0:05:42.844 --> 0:05:46.244 team has to vote someone out. So traditionally, up until 0:05:46.244 --> 0:05:48.364 the point where I played the first time, the first 0:05:48.444 --> 0:05:50.884 three seasons had gone by My first season was the 0:05:50.924 --> 0:05:54.804 fourth season. The first three they tended to keep the 0:05:54.964 --> 0:05:59.124 strong athletic players because they felt that, you know, they 0:05:59.164 --> 0:06:01.764 would help to provide for the team the strength and 0:06:01.844 --> 0:06:06.764 the challenge. And I was kind of like the first 0:06:06.844 --> 0:06:11.924 one to realize it didn't matter how strong the team was. 0:06:12.684 --> 0:06:16.244 I needed people that I could control like chess pieces 0:06:16.724 --> 0:06:20.444 in order to get myself further. Because like the game, 0:06:20.724 --> 0:06:24.044 even though on the surface it looks like it's a 0:06:24.084 --> 0:06:28.364 team game, it's an individual game. The entire game is 0:06:28.364 --> 0:06:32.444 an individual game. So what was different was like in 0:06:32.484 --> 0:06:34.844 the beginning, there was a guy his name was Hunter 0:06:35.004 --> 0:06:38.084 this first season, and he was the All American Colby 0:06:38.244 --> 0:06:41.564 kind of guy, the fighter, pilot, the strength guy, the 0:06:41.604 --> 0:06:45.244 guy with the muscles, the voice of reason. He probably 0:06:45.284 --> 0:06:47.884 went to an IVY League school. He was a pilot. 0:06:48.604 --> 0:06:54.804 And I just said to myself, this guy's on my team. 0:06:55.044 --> 0:06:58.964 Everybody's listening to him. If I hide in the shadows 0:06:58.964 --> 0:07:01.644 behind him, eventually it'll get to the point where too 0:07:01.684 --> 0:07:05.044 many of people that I can become allied with, aligned 0:07:05.084 --> 0:07:08.084 with won't be there for me to get the numbers. 0:07:08.844 --> 0:07:12.644 So why not just get him out early? And nobody 0:07:13.044 --> 0:07:16.964 saw it, you know, And I knew by targeting him, 0:07:17.764 --> 0:07:22.484 I could gain respect and loyalty from other people in 0:07:22.524 --> 0:07:28.924 my tribe and use that strength moving forward. Now, Ultimately, 0:07:28.964 --> 0:07:31.604 that first season, there was a twist that happened. And 0:07:32.124 --> 0:07:35.364 sometimes this is a lot like poker too. Sometimes things 0:07:35.444 --> 0:07:38.964 happen throughout the course of your tournament or your game 0:07:39.484 --> 0:07:42.044 that you can't control and there's nothing you can do 0:07:42.124 --> 0:07:44.404 about it. And it was a twist where they decided 0:07:44.444 --> 0:07:47.924 to switch the tribes. So when they did so I 0:07:47.924 --> 0:07:50.524 got put on another tribe, and my numbers were I 0:07:50.524 --> 0:07:54.924 didn't have the strength and alliance numbers, so things kind 0:07:54.924 --> 0:07:58.404 of you know, went awry, and I wasn't able to 0:07:58.524 --> 0:08:01.924 execute all the way through that first season. But I 0:08:02.044 --> 0:08:08.164 understood the bigger picture, and I made myself a promise 0:08:08.204 --> 0:08:10.404 after that first season that if I ever got an 0:08:10.444 --> 0:08:13.364 opportunity to go back and play again, you know, because 0:08:13.364 --> 0:08:16.084 you have to understand, I was also twenty five years old. 0:08:16.124 --> 0:08:18.684 I was a kid from Boston. I went to an 0:08:18.804 --> 0:08:20.924 island in the middle of the South Pacific in the 0:08:20.924 --> 0:08:23.324 middle of the winter, and there's a lot of girls 0:08:23.404 --> 0:08:26.564 running around in bikinis and everything else. So I was 0:08:26.644 --> 0:08:30.164 distracted a little bit also, But I made myself the 0:08:30.284 --> 0:08:34.404 promise that if I went back, that I would execute 0:08:34.484 --> 0:08:38.604 on the correct game play. And I guess I chased 0:08:38.604 --> 0:08:41.644 a bikini that season two, which ultimately ended up being 0:08:41.644 --> 0:08:48.524 my wife. But I did so. I mean, specifically, I 0:08:48.524 --> 0:08:53.084 don't think there's one thing. I think I just understood 0:08:53.524 --> 0:08:57.484 the overall better than my competitors. 0:08:57.964 --> 0:09:00.324 Well, I think there's a really key insight in there 0:09:00.444 --> 0:09:03.404 that you mentioned right at the beginning, which is kind 0:09:03.404 --> 0:09:06.764 of a misunderstanding of what game you're playing. Right, So 0:09:06.964 --> 0:09:10.604 if people think that they're playing a cooperative game, that's 0:09:10.804 --> 0:09:14.044 very different from if you realize that you're playing kind 0:09:14.044 --> 0:09:16.964 of something that is a little bit more zero sum. 0:09:17.044 --> 0:09:19.524 Right at the end, there is only one survivor, and 0:09:19.564 --> 0:09:23.124 that's what you're of course, what you're gunning for. And 0:09:23.524 --> 0:09:27.564 so I'm interested though because obviously you need to see 0:09:27.564 --> 0:09:30.604 some of it in positive some terms, right to kind 0:09:30.604 --> 0:09:34.844 of build those alliances and kind of get people to 0:09:35.044 --> 0:09:38.164 trust you. How do you how do you balance that 0:09:38.284 --> 0:09:41.444 right in your mind knowing that at the end you're 0:09:41.484 --> 0:09:44.524 playing just for yourself and it's an individual game, and 0:09:44.604 --> 0:09:48.964 yet you need to kind of have those cooperative elements 0:09:49.324 --> 0:09:51.444 along the way. How do you kind of how do 0:09:51.484 --> 0:09:53.444 you square that circle? And how do you kind of 0:09:53.484 --> 0:09:54.604 make it work for yourself. 0:09:54.884 --> 0:09:58.644 Yeah, so as I played different seasons and as my 0:09:58.844 --> 0:10:03.284 game evolved, the strategy also evolved. Right. You got to 0:10:03.284 --> 0:10:05.484 remember I didn't win the first time I played. I 0:10:05.484 --> 0:10:07.644 am win the second time. It took me four times. 0:10:07.684 --> 0:10:10.444 I eventually won, but I never quit and I never 0:10:10.524 --> 0:10:13.004 gave up. Now you can make the argument, you know 0:10:13.044 --> 0:10:14.724 I did win the second time because I got to 0:10:14.764 --> 0:10:16.684 the end with my wife and we figured out a 0:10:16.684 --> 0:10:19.564 way to you know, game the system a little bit. 0:10:20.164 --> 0:10:25.444 But I think different people need to be treated differently 0:10:25.644 --> 0:10:30.604 in terms of how to quote unquote manipulate them. Different 0:10:30.644 --> 0:10:33.844 people are motivated by different things. If you want to 0:10:33.924 --> 0:10:37.924 understand how to get someone to do something, you have 0:10:37.964 --> 0:10:40.964 to understand what motivates them and what drives them. You know, 0:10:41.884 --> 0:10:45.364 almost all people are emotional to a certain level, but 0:10:45.524 --> 0:10:51.564 some people respond more to logic. Some people are ego based, 0:10:51.964 --> 0:10:55.404 you know, they're driven by their ego, So different people. 0:10:55.524 --> 0:10:58.724 I think the skill that I possess is being able 0:10:58.764 --> 0:11:03.804 to accurately identify which what I need to be for 0:11:03.884 --> 0:11:07.524 each person and who needs what, and give them what 0:11:07.764 --> 0:11:12.004 they need so that I'm able to build trust and 0:11:13.164 --> 0:11:15.364 do it in a way that they don't realize I'm 0:11:15.404 --> 0:11:18.604 doing it. And when I'm able to, then you know, 0:11:19.084 --> 0:11:21.884 you eat and they eat out of your hands and 0:11:21.924 --> 0:11:24.644 you do what you need to do. And I think 0:11:24.764 --> 0:11:28.004 some of that is intuitive and some of it is learned. 0:11:28.084 --> 0:11:31.924 I mean, I don't think you can go to school 0:11:31.924 --> 0:11:35.124 and study psychology and just know this. I think a 0:11:35.164 --> 0:11:38.444 lot of my background growing up in Boston, you know, 0:11:38.844 --> 0:11:44.484 coming from a street smart background and understanding people is 0:11:45.244 --> 0:11:50.724 what has helped me more than it helps other people. Additionally, 0:11:51.404 --> 0:11:58.564 I think you know, certain people are able to adapt 0:11:58.564 --> 0:12:03.164 to their situation and have more self awareness than others. 0:12:03.564 --> 0:12:08.084 I think those are the two skill sets which reign 0:12:08.204 --> 0:12:11.884 supreme not only in survivor and competitive reality, but also 0:12:11.964 --> 0:12:16.004 in poker. Right. It's a little bit philosophical by nature. 0:12:16.404 --> 0:12:18.644 It's not who I think I am. It's not who 0:12:18.724 --> 0:12:20.964 you think I am. It's who I think you think 0:12:21.004 --> 0:12:27.364 I am. And that literally translates into are you accurate 0:12:27.644 --> 0:12:31.364 about what your opponent thinks about you? And you have 0:12:31.484 --> 0:12:36.604 to be able to know it, and to know it 0:12:36.644 --> 0:12:39.204 to a certainty to be able to execute on it 0:12:39.644 --> 0:12:42.804 in order to manipulate without them knowing. I mean, the 0:12:42.844 --> 0:12:46.004 easiest way to tell if someone's lying to you, right 0:12:46.764 --> 0:12:49.084 is ask them a question you already know the answer 0:12:49.124 --> 0:12:53.164 to and see how they respond. It's so simple, right, 0:12:53.884 --> 0:12:58.684 and you set these little traps, you do it, and 0:12:58.724 --> 0:13:02.484 then it becomes second nature. The other thing I think 0:13:02.524 --> 0:13:05.964 that helps me a lot is I'm okay with confrontation. 0:13:07.084 --> 0:13:11.284 Like on Traders, I loved the table. I loved going 0:13:11.324 --> 0:13:15.724 to battle. Other people feared it, you know, and like 0:13:16.004 --> 0:13:18.724 you know, like at the poker table, you got to 0:13:18.724 --> 0:13:22.964 be a killer, right and you you have to have 0:13:23.124 --> 0:13:30.644 that aggression. Aggression one is dominant over being passive. If 0:13:30.724 --> 0:13:32.684 you sit there and wait for the game to come 0:13:32.724 --> 0:13:36.764 to you, sometimes you'll win sometimes, like people win Survivor 0:13:36.924 --> 0:13:39.564 by letting the game come to them. But for the 0:13:39.604 --> 0:13:43.004 most part, you're gonna get close and you're gonna taste it, 0:13:43.404 --> 0:13:45.404 but you're not going to get that victory as much 0:13:45.444 --> 0:13:48.724 as if you're aggressive. And I'm not afraid to be aggressive. 0:13:48.844 --> 0:13:51.484 I know when I need to take the shot, and 0:13:51.564 --> 0:13:54.644 a lot of that comes with experience, but like I 0:13:54.804 --> 0:14:00.044 also know, you know when to not worry about stuff 0:14:00.084 --> 0:14:04.964 you can't do anything about, like twisting the game. A 0:14:05.004 --> 0:14:07.324 long time ago, there was a poker show on TV 0:14:07.524 --> 0:14:12.044 called Poker After Dark and Doyle Brunston like did like 0:14:12.124 --> 0:14:18.804 the open monologue, and I remember he said, poker is 0:14:18.844 --> 0:14:22.164 not about winning or losing, It's about making the correct decision. 0:14:23.204 --> 0:14:25.324 There's a lot of truth in that, and there's a 0:14:25.324 --> 0:14:30.604 lot of truth in reality TV competition about making the 0:14:30.724 --> 0:14:34.684 correct decision and not worrying about what you can't do 0:14:34.764 --> 0:14:39.164 anything about. So that's always kind of been my philosophy, 0:14:39.324 --> 0:14:42.004 and it's like it's not like I knew everything from 0:14:42.004 --> 0:14:45.284 the beginning, Maria, but like, over time I've learned it 0:14:45.764 --> 0:14:47.644 and now I know it as fact. 0:14:47.764 --> 0:14:50.084 You know, yeah, for sure, for sure now a lot 0:14:50.124 --> 0:14:53.484 a lot of what you're saying rings true for the 0:14:53.524 --> 0:14:56.844 poker player, some of what you're saying rings true. It's 0:14:57.004 --> 0:15:00.004 very funny. There's a thin line between a persuasion in 0:15:00.044 --> 0:15:03.444 the setting and con artists. So my second book was 0:15:03.484 --> 0:15:07.604 about confidence men, right, people who tricked people for a living. 0:15:07.964 --> 0:15:11.044 And obviously the main difference is when you do it 0:15:11.084 --> 0:15:14.204 in real life, it's nasty, right. If you're doing it 0:15:14.364 --> 0:15:16.964 in a game, it's part of gameplay, right, it's it's. 0:15:16.884 --> 0:15:20.644 Part There's a lot of a lot of parallels to 0:15:20.764 --> 0:15:24.364 relationships as well, And you gotta remember Survivor is a 0:15:24.404 --> 0:15:27.724 game of relationships, especially where you vote the people off 0:15:27.724 --> 0:15:30.324 and then after you vote them off, you have to 0:15:30.404 --> 0:15:32.964 ask them to vote for you in the end. So 0:15:33.204 --> 0:15:35.484 usually the way people win a one or two ways. 0:15:35.564 --> 0:15:39.884 Either a they're too mad at the other person, right 0:15:39.964 --> 0:15:43.844 and you're the lesser of the two evils, or or 0:15:44.084 --> 0:15:46.764 you know you've figured out a way to like gain 0:15:46.804 --> 0:15:50.244 their trust in some way, and they're the bigger person, 0:15:50.764 --> 0:15:55.324 but for the most part they run parallel the relationships, 0:15:55.924 --> 0:15:59.404 and you know, psychology and manipulation. 0:16:01.644 --> 0:16:03.764 We're gonna take a quick break and then more own 0:16:03.844 --> 0:16:24.524 strategy and game theory with Boston Robb. It seems like 0:16:24.724 --> 0:16:28.404 your psychology background has actually served you remarkably well, right 0:16:28.484 --> 0:16:32.404 like that, that's actually probably the biggest tool that you have. 0:16:32.524 --> 0:16:35.364 And in this particular case, this is something that that 0:16:35.444 --> 0:16:38.444 poker doesn't have, but that you've think alluded to multiple 0:16:38.924 --> 0:16:43.244 multiple times. There's also attention, right and the ability to 0:16:43.284 --> 0:16:47.044 manipulate people's attention. And I think that that's really interesting 0:16:47.164 --> 0:16:50.204 because you know, that is such a crucial skill. I 0:16:50.244 --> 0:16:53.124 think in the present day, when there are so many 0:16:53.164 --> 0:16:57.764 things buying for attention, how do you actually influence people 0:16:57.804 --> 0:17:00.644 to pay attention right to what you want them to 0:17:00.644 --> 0:17:04.164 pay attention to and not to what they might be 0:17:04.284 --> 0:17:07.044 gravitating to you in the moment, like you So. 0:17:07.964 --> 0:17:12.204 In order for me to figure out how I get 0:17:12.244 --> 0:17:16.004 somebody to pay attention to someone something, I have to 0:17:16.124 --> 0:17:18.964 do it in a way that they're interested in it 0:17:19.164 --> 0:17:23.124 or they what would benefit them. So every story you 0:17:23.244 --> 0:17:26.924 tell when you're trying to push a theory one way 0:17:27.004 --> 0:17:30.284 or another, or an alliance or a vote or something. 0:17:30.644 --> 0:17:33.444 You have to do it through their eyes. A lot 0:17:33.484 --> 0:17:37.724 of people look singularly at a problem and they don't 0:17:37.804 --> 0:17:40.724 see it through their opponent's eyes. I think that's the 0:17:40.844 --> 0:17:44.724 biggest key to being able to do well in poker. 0:17:45.364 --> 0:17:48.004 You're supposed to think about what would they think right, 0:17:48.364 --> 0:17:52.044 what would my opponent think I'm doing in this spot. 0:17:52.204 --> 0:17:55.484 So you have to see the game through their eyes 0:17:55.524 --> 0:17:59.604 and what would benefit them. I can't propose a theory 0:17:59.724 --> 0:18:03.004 to you or a vote to you if it doesn't 0:18:03.044 --> 0:18:05.484 make sense to you. If I want to get someone 0:18:05.604 --> 0:18:08.684 get rid of somebody that's in your alliance, I have 0:18:08.724 --> 0:18:12.004 to either a create distrust in your mind, like that 0:18:12.084 --> 0:18:13.924 person came to me was coming to me to get 0:18:13.964 --> 0:18:18.764 you out, or be like, listen, I know you're aligned 0:18:18.804 --> 0:18:21.364 with her, but we have this other thing here and 0:18:21.404 --> 0:18:23.604 if you come with this, I promise we are going 0:18:23.684 --> 0:18:27.124 here and you have to actually believe it. So whatever 0:18:27.484 --> 0:18:30.684 theory I propose to you, it has to be good 0:18:30.884 --> 0:18:34.084 in your mind. And I don't think I don't think 0:18:34.124 --> 0:18:36.684 a lot of people are able to see the game 0:18:37.404 --> 0:18:39.444 through what's best for your opponent. 0:18:40.044 --> 0:18:42.484 I think that that's a crucial skill to have in 0:18:42.564 --> 0:18:45.884 any game, including poker. And also the self awareness to 0:18:46.004 --> 0:18:50.404 know what is your image to this particular person, right, 0:18:50.484 --> 0:18:52.644 not just what is your image at the table, but 0:18:52.684 --> 0:18:55.604 how does this person perceive you? I think that that 0:18:55.804 --> 0:18:58.724 is an absolutely crucial insight. You know something that I 0:18:58.804 --> 0:19:01.844 learned from my mentor Eric Sidell, when I'd ask him 0:19:02.004 --> 0:19:04.684 how would you play this spot? Right, like how would 0:19:04.684 --> 0:19:07.004 you play this hand? He said, that's the wrong question 0:19:07.204 --> 0:19:08.044 because I'm not you. 0:19:08.524 --> 0:19:11.044 Yes, So for me, this. 0:19:11.004 --> 0:19:15.084 Spot isn't the same as the exact same spot is 0:19:15.164 --> 0:19:17.884 for you. If I am in your seat with the 0:19:17.924 --> 0:19:21.284 same cards and the same action, it's a different spot 0:19:21.644 --> 0:19:24.324 because I'm a different person. I'm a different player, and 0:19:24.364 --> 0:19:27.564 people are thinking about me differently. Their strategy is different, 0:19:27.764 --> 0:19:30.164 their response is different. I can get away with some 0:19:30.244 --> 0:19:32.044 things you can't get away with. You can get away 0:19:32.084 --> 0:19:34.644 with some things I can't get away with. Right, different 0:19:34.684 --> 0:19:37.164 things look different coming from the two of us, And 0:19:37.204 --> 0:19:39.484 so that's how you have to think about, not how 0:19:39.484 --> 0:19:42.284 do you play the spot? And actually most players, even 0:19:42.444 --> 0:19:46.444 very good ones, not the best ones, but like solid 0:19:46.444 --> 0:19:48.964 ones don't go that extra step and they just look 0:19:49.004 --> 0:19:52.244 at you know the solver computerized output. This is how 0:19:52.244 --> 0:19:55.364 you play the spot, not realizing that in live poker 0:19:55.484 --> 0:19:56.604 that doesn't exist. 0:19:56.724 --> 0:20:00.524 That's why GTO is not like is not the end 0:20:00.524 --> 0:20:03.764 all be all, And that's true for in Survivor and 0:20:03.804 --> 0:20:08.844 stuff too. What maybe the correct decision right now might 0:20:08.964 --> 0:20:12.444 not be correct decision five minutes from now because your 0:20:12.524 --> 0:20:16.764 emotional state may have changed. There may be something going 0:20:16.804 --> 0:20:19.364 on where this is the move you would have made. 0:20:19.524 --> 0:20:21.844 This would have made the most sense to you now, 0:20:22.324 --> 0:20:26.764 but because XYZ happened all of a sudden, that's not 0:20:26.844 --> 0:20:31.204 true anymore. Like the biggest example of that I can 0:20:31.244 --> 0:20:36.364 give you is a lot of times when someone's blindsided 0:20:36.924 --> 0:20:39.844 on a vote at tribal console, meaning they were left 0:20:39.844 --> 0:20:45.084 out of the vote. They come back to camp that night. 0:20:45.644 --> 0:20:50.724 That is a super emotional and vulnerable time for them. 0:20:51.124 --> 0:20:53.804 And I know because I've had a lot of experience 0:20:54.284 --> 0:20:59.004 knowing that in that moment, depending on how I treat 0:20:59.084 --> 0:21:02.764 that person, I can either one hundred percent get them 0:21:02.884 --> 0:21:05.804 with me for the rest of the game, or I 0:21:05.844 --> 0:21:09.564 can alienate them for the rest of the game. I 0:21:09.564 --> 0:21:14.044 did it with Andrea Belki in Redemption Island the season 0:21:14.124 --> 0:21:18.844 I won. We ended up blindsiding her island boyfriend Matt. 0:21:19.284 --> 0:21:22.484 And she came back and she had no idea where 0:21:22.524 --> 0:21:24.564 to go, this way, this way, this way, like she 0:21:24.644 --> 0:21:27.684 had no idea, and she felt super vulnerable. But I 0:21:27.764 --> 0:21:30.364 went to her and I was like, listen, I know 0:21:30.604 --> 0:21:32.724 that you were tight with Matt, but I just got 0:21:32.764 --> 0:21:35.044 to tell you. We couldn't tell you about what was 0:21:35.084 --> 0:21:37.844 happening because we knew if you did that you'd react 0:21:37.884 --> 0:21:40.844 emotionally to it. But I promise you, he wasn't good 0:21:40.844 --> 0:21:42.644 for your game. He wasn't good for my game. He 0:21:42.644 --> 0:21:45.204 wasn't good for anyone. I still want to work with you. 0:21:45.524 --> 0:21:48.444 I still want to be in your alliance, and I like, 0:21:48.484 --> 0:21:51.324 you know, so being the comfort person even though she 0:21:51.484 --> 0:21:55.084 just had that happen and now being able to for 0:21:55.164 --> 0:21:57.244 the next three or four five votes in the row, 0:21:57.444 --> 0:22:01.404 build trust with her to show that that's actually true, 0:22:01.964 --> 0:22:05.724 you know, versus the other way she comes back, she's 0:22:05.764 --> 0:22:09.564 super vulnerable. We turned everybody against her. I mean, it's 0:22:09.564 --> 0:22:11.724 a super manipulative game, right if you know, if you 0:22:11.844 --> 0:22:15.244 understand it, and not everybody out there is thinking on 0:22:15.324 --> 0:22:18.844 that same level. But some people are so the people 0:22:18.884 --> 0:22:21.804 that are like yourself I could tell you're super in tune. 0:22:21.804 --> 0:22:25.924 You understand the psychology, you understand the gameplay. I would 0:22:25.964 --> 0:22:29.244 size you up real quick and either work with you 0:22:29.844 --> 0:22:31.444 or get rid of you right away well out of 0:22:31.484 --> 0:22:34.364 the depending on whether or not I felt like I 0:22:34.364 --> 0:22:36.524 could trust you and you'd work with me, or if 0:22:36.524 --> 0:22:38.964 you were going to be threatening to me. You know, 0:22:39.284 --> 0:22:41.884 that's how That's what we do at the poker table. 0:22:42.204 --> 0:22:44.284 That's what you do as soon as you hit the island. 0:22:44.324 --> 0:22:48.244 Every time you have to make judgments about people that 0:22:48.364 --> 0:22:52.244 you really don't know anything about. So you look at 0:22:52.244 --> 0:22:55.604 things beyond what there's coming out of their mouth. You 0:22:55.604 --> 0:22:59.164 look at their body language, their actions, because I truly 0:22:59.204 --> 0:23:03.604 believe the actions speak louder than words every time, you know, yeah, 0:23:03.604 --> 0:23:04.044 for sure. 0:23:04.324 --> 0:23:08.444 And it's interesting because you know, you talk about building trust, 0:23:08.604 --> 0:23:11.644 and in that moment, do you actually have to kind 0:23:11.644 --> 0:23:14.884 of believe you're building trust even if you know like 0:23:14.924 --> 0:23:17.484 at the end you're going to be traitor right that 0:23:17.524 --> 0:23:18.764 you're doing it strategically? 0:23:19.084 --> 0:23:21.404 Well, I mean, look like you said, we all signed 0:23:21.484 --> 0:23:23.524 up for the same game. We all know one person's 0:23:23.524 --> 0:23:26.164 gonna win, so eventually everybody's gonna build trust except for 0:23:26.244 --> 0:23:28.364 the one person you're sitting there at the end with. 0:23:28.764 --> 0:23:31.764 But here's the thing. If you understand the game on 0:23:31.844 --> 0:23:36.364 a basic level, you know, when you sit at the end, 0:23:36.444 --> 0:23:38.644 you want to sit at the end with two people 0:23:38.644 --> 0:23:41.204