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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business. I'm Maria Konnikova. Nate

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Speaker 1: is out today, but we are joined in his stead

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Speaker 1: by a very special guest, a reality TV legend, the

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Speaker 1: only person to appear on Survivor six times, five times

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Speaker 1: as a contestant, one time as a winner. Although I

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Speaker 1: would say twice as a winner because even the time

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Speaker 1: that he lost, he met his future wife and they've

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Speaker 1: now been married for over twenty years, so that to

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Speaker 1: me counts as a win. He's also been on The

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Speaker 1: Amazing Race Traders and Deal or No Deal Island, and

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Speaker 1: Rob is a fellow poker player. He's known as a

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Speaker 1: master strategist who blends cutthroat gameplay with irresistible social line stinks.

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Speaker 1: Robert Mariano aka Boston Rob. Welcome to the show, Rob.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Maria. I'm a huge fan as well.

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Speaker 2: I've been following your journey for the last few years.

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Speaker 2: I actually came across your book and I know formerly

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Speaker 2: we've never really interacted, but I'm looking forward to it

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Speaker 2: at some point here in the future.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, likewise likewise. Oh, and on a more personal note, Rob,

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Speaker 1: I am a fellow Bostonian, though I grew up in

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Speaker 1: the suburbs. Oh, not in the city, not a true Bostonian.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's like, you don't have an accent. I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I lived in the suburbs.

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Speaker 2: Sorry.

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Speaker 1: And you and I both studied psychology in college in Boston.

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Speaker 1: So you went in a different direction with psychology, but

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Speaker 1: we're both using it, I think, in very interactive and

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Speaker 1: interesting ways. So let's start at the beginning of your journey.

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Speaker 1: If that's okay with you. How do you get from

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Speaker 1: you know, a psych major at BU to Survivor and

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Speaker 1: to kind of the career that came to define you.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of a wild Glorian journey. But like,

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Speaker 2: actually I went to Boston University five years graduated with

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Speaker 2: a degree in psychology and made my parents really proud,

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Speaker 2: and went to go work in construction because I love

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Speaker 2: to work with my hands. I started off as a

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Speaker 2: laborer for a stonemasonry company out in framing him and

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Speaker 2: it just so happened that Survivor had just started. It

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Speaker 2: was the year two thousand and it was the biggest

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Speaker 2: hit and it was on TV and I had a

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Speaker 2: girlfriend at the time who loved the show and wanted

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Speaker 2: me to watch it. And I remember one day after work,

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Speaker 2: we're watching the show and there was a kid that

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Speaker 2: was on it. His name was Colby. It was the

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Speaker 2: second season. He was like the all American guy and

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Speaker 2: he was out there and he was doing the challenges

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Speaker 2: and doing a great job. I remember sitting on my

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Speaker 2: couch with my dad being like, I would kick his ass.

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Speaker 2: My dad was just like, oh, yeah, you think you

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Speaker 2: could do it, why don't you try? So I was like,

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Speaker 2: all right, maybe I will, you know, so I sent

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Speaker 2: in the application. One thing led to another. Who could have,

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Speaker 2: like I would have never predicted twenty five years later,

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Speaker 2: you know, the journey that it's taken me on. But

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Speaker 2: I think I didn't actually use my psychology degree in

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Speaker 2: the traditional way, but I kind of did use it,

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Speaker 2: you know, through reality TV and poker and yeah, all

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Speaker 2: these other competition games.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, it's funny. So you kind of started So

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Speaker 1: let's put this in poker terms. You started as the

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Speaker 1: chat pro, right, who's watching the professionals play on stream,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, I know how to play that

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Speaker 1: hand so much better. And most chat bros, you know,

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Speaker 1: they'd suck, right if you actually.

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Speaker 2: Put the money.

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Speaker 1: You were the one who actually was like, you know

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Speaker 1: what I could do better? And you went and you

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Speaker 1: kick their ass, So you actually did.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was it did not. It took a

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Speaker 2: little bit of time, but like I understood the meta

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Speaker 2: of the game kind of before everybody else, even like

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Speaker 2: the producers. I understood like not only the math of it,

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Speaker 2: but the psychology behind it. And I think that's like

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Speaker 2: really important and understanding these games that include not only

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Speaker 2: the physical aspect but the social and the strategic aspects

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Speaker 2: as well. And in that respect, I feel like I

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Speaker 2: was a little bit ahead of you know, my peers

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Speaker 2: from the beginning for sure. For sure.

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Speaker 1: Well that's what interests me about you and about this

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Speaker 1: is kind of the game theoretic aspect of it, right,

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Speaker 1: kind of the meta strategy behind it. So when you

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Speaker 1: were watching what was it? You know, what was your

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Speaker 1: kind of big aha insight where you were like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I know what game this is and I know how

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Speaker 1: to play it strategically on a higher level, because it's

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Speaker 1: not like you were, oh, you know, I'm the best

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Speaker 1: at survivor skills, right or something like that. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: understood kind of the actual mechanics the game. So can

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Speaker 1: you talk me through a little bit about how you

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Speaker 1: thought about it back then, and then I'd love to

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Speaker 1: kind of talk through the evolution, you know, twenty five

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Speaker 1: years later.

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Speaker 2: Of course. Yeah. So in the beginning, you know, the

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Speaker 2: game was fairly new, and it was two tribes of

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Speaker 2: people on an island, and there was a survival aspect

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Speaker 2: where you had to forage for your food and everything.

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Speaker 2: But beyond the survival aspect of it, even though the

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Speaker 2: name of the show is Survivor, there's a strategic aspect

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Speaker 2: where whoever wins the challenge, the person that loses their

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Speaker 2: team has to vote someone out. So traditionally, up until

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Speaker 2: the point where I played the first time, the first

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Speaker 2: three seasons had gone by My first season was the

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Speaker 2: fourth season. The first three they tended to keep the

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Speaker 2: strong athletic players because they felt that, you know, they

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Speaker 2: would help to provide for the team the strength and

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Speaker 2: the challenge. And I was kind of like the first

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Speaker 2: one to realize it didn't matter how strong the team was.

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Speaker 2: I needed people that I could control like chess pieces

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Speaker 2: in order to get myself further. Because like the game,

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Speaker 2: even though on the surface it looks like it's a

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Speaker 2: team game, it's an individual game. The entire game is

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Speaker 2: an individual game. So what was different was like in

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Speaker 2: the beginning, there was a guy his name was Hunter

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Speaker 2: this first season, and he was the All American Colby

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Speaker 2: kind of guy, the fighter, pilot, the strength guy, the

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Speaker 2: guy with the muscles, the voice of reason. He probably

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Speaker 2: went to an IVY League school. He was a pilot.

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Speaker 2: And I just said to myself, this guy's on my team.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's listening to him. If I hide in the shadows

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Speaker 2: behind him, eventually it'll get to the point where too

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Speaker 2: many of people that I can become allied with, aligned

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Speaker 2: with won't be there for me to get the numbers.

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Speaker 2: So why not just get him out early? And nobody

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Speaker 2: saw it, you know, And I knew by targeting him,

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Speaker 2: I could gain respect and loyalty from other people in

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Speaker 2: my tribe and use that strength moving forward. Now, Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: that first season, there was a twist that happened. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes this is a lot like poker too. Sometimes things

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Speaker 2: happen throughout the course of your tournament or your game

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Speaker 2: that you can't control and there's nothing you can do

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Speaker 2: about it. And it was a twist where they decided

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Speaker 2: to switch the tribes. So when they did so I

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Speaker 2: got put on another tribe, and my numbers were I

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Speaker 2: didn't have the strength and alliance numbers, so things kind

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Speaker 2: of you know, went awry, and I wasn't able to

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Speaker 2: execute all the way through that first season. But I

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Speaker 2: understood the bigger picture, and I made myself a promise

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Speaker 2: after that first season that if I ever got an

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Speaker 2: opportunity to go back and play again, you know, because

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Speaker 2: you have to understand, I was also twenty five years old.

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Speaker 2: I was a kid from Boston. I went to an

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Speaker 2: island in the middle of the South Pacific in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the winter, and there's a lot of girls

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Speaker 2: running around in bikinis and everything else. So I was

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Speaker 2: distracted a little bit also, But I made myself the

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Speaker 2: promise that if I went back, that I would execute

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Speaker 2: on the correct game play. And I guess I chased

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Speaker 2: a bikini that season two, which ultimately ended up being

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Speaker 2: my wife. But I did so. I mean, specifically, I

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Speaker 2: don't think there's one thing. I think I just understood

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Speaker 2: the overall better than my competitors.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there's a really key insight in there

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned right at the beginning, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of a misunderstanding of what game you're playing. Right, So

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Speaker 1: if people think that they're playing a cooperative game, that's

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Speaker 1: very different from if you realize that you're playing kind

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Speaker 1: of something that is a little bit more zero sum.

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Speaker 1: Right at the end, there is only one survivor, and

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Speaker 1: that's what you're of course, what you're gunning for. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm interested though because obviously you need to see

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Speaker 1: some of it in positive some terms, right to kind

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Speaker 1: of build those alliances and kind of get people to

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Speaker 1: trust you. How do you how do you balance that

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Speaker 1: right in your mind knowing that at the end you're

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Speaker 1: playing just for yourself and it's an individual game, and

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Speaker 1: yet you need to kind of have those cooperative elements

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Speaker 1: along the way. How do you kind of how do

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Speaker 1: you square that circle? And how do you kind of

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Speaker 1: make it work for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so as I played different seasons and as my

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Speaker 2: game evolved, the strategy also evolved. Right. You got to

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Speaker 2: remember I didn't win the first time I played. I

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Speaker 2: am win the second time. It took me four times.

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Speaker 2: I eventually won, but I never quit and I never

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Speaker 2: gave up. Now you can make the argument, you know

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Speaker 2: I did win the second time because I got to

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Speaker 2: the end with my wife and we figured out a

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Speaker 2: way to you know, game the system a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But I think different people need to be treated differently

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Speaker 2: in terms of how to quote unquote manipulate them. Different

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Speaker 2: people are motivated by different things. If you want to

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Speaker 2: understand how to get someone to do something, you have

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Speaker 2: to understand what motivates them and what drives them. You know,

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Speaker 2: almost all people are emotional to a certain level, but

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Speaker 2: some people respond more to logic. Some people are ego based,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're driven by their ego, So different people.

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Speaker 2: I think the skill that I possess is being able

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Speaker 2: to accurately identify which what I need to be for

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Speaker 2: each person and who needs what, and give them what

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Speaker 2: they need so that I'm able to build trust and

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Speaker 2: do it in a way that they don't realize I'm

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Speaker 2: doing it. And when I'm able to, then you know,

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Speaker 2: you eat and they eat out of your hands and

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Speaker 2: you do what you need to do. And I think

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Speaker 2: some of that is intuitive and some of it is learned.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think you can go to school

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Speaker 2: and study psychology and just know this. I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of my background growing up in Boston, you know,

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Speaker 2: coming from a street smart background and understanding people is

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Speaker 2: what has helped me more than it helps other people. Additionally,

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Speaker 2: I think you know, certain people are able to adapt

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Speaker 2: to their situation and have more self awareness than others.

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Speaker 2: I think those are the two skill sets which reign

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Speaker 2: supreme not only in survivor and competitive reality, but also

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Speaker 2: in poker. Right. It's a little bit philosophical by nature.

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Speaker 2: It's not who I think I am. It's not who

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Speaker 2: you think I am. It's who I think you think

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Speaker 2: I am. And that literally translates into are you accurate

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Speaker 2: about what your opponent thinks about you? And you have

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Speaker 2: to be able to know it, and to know it

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Speaker 2: to a certainty to be able to execute on it

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Speaker 2: in order to manipulate without them knowing. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: easiest way to tell if someone's lying to you, right

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Speaker 2: is ask them a question you already know the answer

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Speaker 2: to and see how they respond. It's so simple, right,

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Speaker 2: and you set these little traps, you do it, and

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Speaker 2: then it becomes second nature. The other thing I think

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Speaker 2: that helps me a lot is I'm okay with confrontation.

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Speaker 2: Like on Traders, I loved the table. I loved going

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Speaker 2: to battle. Other people feared it, you know, and like

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Speaker 2: you know, like at the poker table, you got to

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Speaker 2: be a killer, right and you you have to have

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Speaker 2: that aggression. Aggression one is dominant over being passive. If

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Speaker 2: you sit there and wait for the game to come

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Speaker 2: to you, sometimes you'll win sometimes, like people win Survivor

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Speaker 2: by letting the game come to them. But for the

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Speaker 2: most part, you're gonna get close and you're gonna taste it,

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Speaker 2: but you're not going to get that victory as much

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Speaker 2: as if you're aggressive. And I'm not afraid to be aggressive.

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Speaker 2: I know when I need to take the shot, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of that comes with experience, but like I

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Speaker 2: also know, you know when to not worry about stuff

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Speaker 2: you can't do anything about, like twisting the game. A

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Speaker 2: long time ago, there was a poker show on TV

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Speaker 2: called Poker After Dark and Doyle Brunston like did like

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Speaker 2: the open monologue, and I remember he said, poker is

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Speaker 2: not about winning or losing, It's about making the correct decision.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of truth in that, and there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of truth in reality TV competition about making the

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Speaker 2: correct decision and not worrying about what you can't do

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Speaker 2: anything about. So that's always kind of been my philosophy,

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Speaker 2: and it's like it's not like I knew everything from

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Speaker 2: the beginning, Maria, but like, over time I've learned it

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Speaker 2: and now I know it as fact.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, for sure, for sure now a lot

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Speaker 1: a lot of what you're saying rings true for the

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Speaker 1: poker player, some of what you're saying rings true. It's

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Speaker 1: very funny. There's a thin line between a persuasion in

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Speaker 1: the setting and con artists. So my second book was

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Speaker 1: about confidence men, right, people who tricked people for a living.

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Speaker 1: And obviously the main difference is when you do it

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Speaker 1: in real life, it's nasty, right. If you're doing it

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Speaker 1: in a game, it's part of gameplay, right, it's it's.

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Speaker 2: Part There's a lot of a lot of parallels to

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Speaker 2: relationships as well, And you gotta remember Survivor is a

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Speaker 2: game of relationships, especially where you vote the people off

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Speaker 2: and then after you vote them off, you have to

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Speaker 2: ask them to vote for you in the end. So

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Speaker 2: usually the way people win a one or two ways.

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Speaker 2: Either a they're too mad at the other person, right

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Speaker 2: and you're the lesser of the two evils, or or

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Speaker 2: you know you've figured out a way to like gain

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Speaker 2: their trust in some way, and they're the bigger person,

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Speaker 2: but for the most part they run parallel the relationships,

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Speaker 2: and you know, psychology and manipulation.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and then more own

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Speaker 1: strategy and game theory with Boston Robb. It seems like

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Speaker 1: your psychology background has actually served you remarkably well, right

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Speaker 1: like that, that's actually probably the biggest tool that you have.

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Speaker 1: And in this particular case, this is something that that

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Speaker 1: poker doesn't have, but that you've think alluded to multiple

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Speaker 1: multiple times. There's also attention, right and the ability to

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Speaker 1: manipulate people's attention. And I think that that's really interesting

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Speaker 1: because you know, that is such a crucial skill. I

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Speaker 1: think in the present day, when there are so many

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Speaker 1: things buying for attention, how do you actually influence people

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Speaker 1: to pay attention right to what you want them to

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Speaker 1: pay attention to and not to what they might be

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Speaker 1: gravitating to you in the moment, like you So.

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Speaker 2: In order for me to figure out how I get

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Speaker 2: somebody to pay attention to someone something, I have to

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Speaker 2: do it in a way that they're interested in it

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Speaker 2: or they what would benefit them. So every story you

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Speaker 2: tell when you're trying to push a theory one way

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Speaker 2: or another, or an alliance or a vote or something.

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Speaker 2: You have to do it through their eyes. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people look singularly at a problem and they don't

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Speaker 2: see it through their opponent's eyes. I think that's the

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Speaker 2: biggest key to being able to do well in poker.

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Speaker 2: You're supposed to think about what would they think right,

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Speaker 2: what would my opponent think I'm doing in this spot.

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Speaker 2: So you have to see the game through their eyes

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Speaker 2: and what would benefit them. I can't propose a theory

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Speaker 2: to you or a vote to you if it doesn't

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Speaker 2: make sense to you. If I want to get someone

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Speaker 2: get rid of somebody that's in your alliance, I have

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Speaker 2: to either a create distrust in your mind, like that

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Speaker 2: person came to me was coming to me to get

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Speaker 2: you out, or be like, listen, I know you're aligned

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Speaker 2: with her, but we have this other thing here and

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Speaker 2: if you come with this, I promise we are going

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Speaker 2: here and you have to actually believe it. So whatever

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Speaker 2: theory I propose to you, it has to be good

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Speaker 2: in your mind. And I don't think I don't think

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are able to see the game

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Speaker 2: through what's best for your opponent.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's a crucial skill to have in

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Speaker 1: any game, including poker. And also the self awareness to

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Speaker 1: know what is your image to this particular person, right,

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Speaker 1: not just what is your image at the table, but

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Speaker 1: how does this person perceive you? I think that that

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Speaker 1: is an absolutely crucial insight. You know something that I

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Speaker 1: learned from my mentor Eric Sidell, when I'd ask him

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Speaker 1: how would you play this spot? Right, like how would

315
00:19:04,684 --> 00:19:07,004
Speaker 1: you play this hand? He said, that's the wrong question

316
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Speaker 1: because I'm not you.

317
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Speaker 2: Yes, So for me, this.

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00:19:11,004 --> 00:19:15,084
Speaker 1: Spot isn't the same as the exact same spot is

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Speaker 1: for you. If I am in your seat with the

320
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Speaker 1: same cards and the same action, it's a different spot

321
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Speaker 1: because I'm a different person. I'm a different player, and

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Speaker 1: people are thinking about me differently. Their strategy is different,

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Speaker 1: their response is different. I can get away with some

324
00:19:30,244 --> 00:19:32,044
Speaker 1: things you can't get away with. You can get away

325
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Speaker 1: with some things I can't get away with. Right, different

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Speaker 1: things look different coming from the two of us, And

327
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Speaker 1: so that's how you have to think about, not how

328
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Speaker 1: do you play the spot? And actually most players, even

329
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Speaker 1: very good ones, not the best ones, but like solid

330
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Speaker 1: ones don't go that extra step and they just look

331
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Speaker 1: at you know the solver computerized output. This is how

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00:19:52,244 --> 00:19:55,364
Speaker 1: you play the spot, not realizing that in live poker

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Speaker 1: that doesn't exist.

334
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Speaker 2: That's why GTO is not like is not the end

335
00:20:00,524 --> 00:20:03,764
Speaker 2: all be all, And that's true for in Survivor and

336
00:20:03,804 --> 00:20:08,844
Speaker 2: stuff too. What maybe the correct decision right now might

337
00:20:08,964 --> 00:20:12,444
Speaker 2: not be correct decision five minutes from now because your

338
00:20:12,524 --> 00:20:16,764
Speaker 2: emotional state may have changed. There may be something going

339
00:20:16,804 --> 00:20:19,364
Speaker 2: on where this is the move you would have made.

340
00:20:19,524 --> 00:20:21,844
Speaker 2: This would have made the most sense to you now,

341
00:20:22,324 --> 00:20:26,764
Speaker 2: but because XYZ happened all of a sudden, that's not

342
00:20:26,844 --> 00:20:31,204
Speaker 2: true anymore. Like the biggest example of that I can

343
00:20:31,244 --> 00:20:36,364
Speaker 2: give you is a lot of times when someone's blindsided

344
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Speaker 2: on a vote at tribal console, meaning they were left

345
00:20:39,844 --> 00:20:45,084
Speaker 2: out of the vote. They come back to camp that night.

346
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Speaker 2: That is a super emotional and vulnerable time for them.

347
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Speaker 2: And I know because I've had a lot of experience

348
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Speaker 2: knowing that in that moment, depending on how I treat

349
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Speaker 2: that person, I can either one hundred percent get them

350
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Speaker 2: with me for the rest of the game, or I

351
00:21:05,844 --> 00:21:09,564
Speaker 2: can alienate them for the rest of the game. I

352
00:21:09,564 --> 00:21:14,044
Speaker 2: did it with Andrea Belki in Redemption Island the season

353
00:21:14,124 --> 00:21:18,844
Speaker 2: I won. We ended up blindsiding her island boyfriend Matt.

354
00:21:19,284 --> 00:21:22,484
Speaker 2: And she came back and she had no idea where

355
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Speaker 2: to go, this way, this way, this way, like she

356
00:21:24,644 --> 00:21:27,684
Speaker 2: had no idea, and she felt super vulnerable. But I

357
00:21:27,764 --> 00:21:30,364
Speaker 2: went to her and I was like, listen, I know

358
00:21:30,604 --> 00:21:32,724
Speaker 2: that you were tight with Matt, but I just got

359
00:21:32,764 --> 00:21:35,044
Speaker 2: to tell you. We couldn't tell you about what was

360
00:21:35,084 --> 00:21:37,844
Speaker 2: happening because we knew if you did that you'd react

361
00:21:37,884 --> 00:21:40,844
Speaker 2: emotionally to it. But I promise you, he wasn't good

362
00:21:40,844 --> 00:21:42,644
Speaker 2: for your game. He wasn't good for my game. He

363
00:21:42,644 --> 00:21:45,204
Speaker 2: wasn't good for anyone. I still want to work with you.

364
00:21:45,524 --> 00:21:48,444
Speaker 2: I still want to be in your alliance, and I like,

365
00:21:48,484 --> 00:21:51,324
Speaker 2: you know, so being the comfort person even though she

366
00:21:51,484 --> 00:21:55,084
Speaker 2: just had that happen and now being able to for

367
00:21:55,164 --> 00:21:57,244
Speaker 2: the next three or four five votes in the row,

368
00:21:57,444 --> 00:22:01,404
Speaker 2: build trust with her to show that that's actually true,

369
00:22:01,964 --> 00:22:05,724
Speaker 2: you know, versus the other way she comes back, she's

370
00:22:05,764 --> 00:22:09,564
Speaker 2: super vulnerable. We turned everybody against her. I mean, it's

371
00:22:09,564 --> 00:22:11,724
Speaker 2: a super manipulative game, right if you know, if you

372
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Speaker 2: understand it, and not everybody out there is thinking on

373
00:22:15,324 --> 00:22:18,844
Speaker 2: that same level. But some people are so the people

374
00:22:18,884 --> 00:22:21,804
Speaker 2: that are like yourself I could tell you're super in tune.

375
00:22:21,804 --> 00:22:25,924
Speaker 2: You understand the psychology, you understand the gameplay. I would

376
00:22:25,964 --> 00:22:29,244
Speaker 2: size you up real quick and either work with you

377
00:22:29,844 --> 00:22:31,444
Speaker 2: or get rid of you right away well out of

378
00:22:31,484 --> 00:22:34,364
Speaker 2: the depending on whether or not I felt like I

379
00:22:34,364 --> 00:22:36,524
Speaker 2: could trust you and you'd work with me, or if

380
00:22:36,524 --> 00:22:38,964
Speaker 2: you were going to be threatening to me. You know,

381
00:22:39,284 --> 00:22:41,884
Speaker 2: that's how That's what we do at the poker table.

382
00:22:42,204 --> 00:22:44,284
Speaker 2: That's what you do as soon as you hit the island.

383
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Speaker 2: Every time you have to make judgments about people that

384
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Speaker 2: you really don't know anything about. So you look at

385
00:22:52,244 --> 00:22:55,604
Speaker 2: things beyond what there's coming out of their mouth. You

386
00:22:55,604 --> 00:22:59,164
Speaker 2: look at their body language, their actions, because I truly

387
00:22:59,204 --> 00:23:03,604
Speaker 2: believe the actions speak louder than words every time, you know, yeah,

388
00:23:03,604 --> 00:23:04,044
Speaker 2: for sure.

389
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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you know, you talk about building trust,

390
00:23:08,604 --> 00:23:11,644
Speaker 1: and in that moment, do you actually have to kind

391
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Speaker 1: of believe you're building trust even if you know like

392
00:23:14,924 --> 00:23:17,484
Speaker 1: at the end you're going to be traitor right that

393
00:23:17,524 --> 00:23:18,764
Speaker 1: you're doing it strategically?

394
00:23:19,084 --> 00:23:21,404
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look like you said, we all signed

395
00:23:21,484 --> 00:23:23,524
Speaker 2: up for the same game. We all know one person's

396
00:23:23,524 --> 00:23:26,164
Speaker 2: gonna win, so eventually everybody's gonna build trust except for

397
00:23:26,244 --> 00:23:28,364
Speaker 2: the one person you're sitting there at the end with.

398
00:23:28,764 --> 00:23:31,764
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. If you understand the game on

399
00:23:31,844 --> 00:23:36,364
Speaker 2: a basic level, you know, when you sit at the end,

400
00:23:36,444 --> 00:23:38,644
Speaker 2: you want to sit at the end with two people

401
00:23:38,644 --> 00:23:41,204
Speaker 2: that you can beat. Nobody wants to sit at the

402
00:23:41,324 --> 00:23:43,404
Speaker 2: end about the person that's going to be a coin flip.

403
00:23:43,764 --> 00:23:45,884
Speaker 2: You know, you want some of the you're eighty twenty,

404
00:23:45,884 --> 00:23:48,164
Speaker 2: you got asis and they got kings, and you want

405
00:23:48,164 --> 00:23:51,564
Speaker 2: to be a huge favorite at the end. So like,

406
00:23:51,804 --> 00:23:54,444
Speaker 2: in a way, no, it's.

407
00:23:54,324 --> 00:23:57,244
Speaker 1: Really interesting because you know, I'm just thinking about it,

408
00:23:57,284 --> 00:23:59,524
Speaker 1: like in poker terms. Again, like if you're at a

409
00:23:59,524 --> 00:24:02,924
Speaker 1: final table and there's like there are two recreational players

410
00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:06,364
Speaker 1: and like some very good players, you're rooting for the

411
00:24:06,404 --> 00:24:09,164
Speaker 1: recreational players, right because you want them to have the

412
00:24:09,484 --> 00:24:12,884
Speaker 1: chips because you want to be against them at the end.

413
00:24:12,924 --> 00:24:14,724
Speaker 2: You want to be a favorite against them at the end.

414
00:24:14,804 --> 00:24:17,204
Speaker 1: You don't want one of the great players to win.

415
00:24:17,604 --> 00:24:19,964
Speaker 1: Who you want to win change is obviously, you know

416
00:24:20,164 --> 00:24:22,564
Speaker 1: in poker, it's different in the sense that you can't

417
00:24:22,604 --> 00:24:25,764
Speaker 1: force them to get the chips, like it depends on

418
00:24:26,124 --> 00:24:28,204
Speaker 1: depends on what happens. But in your mind, you can

419
00:24:28,404 --> 00:24:30,724
Speaker 1: root for their success because it's always better to be

420
00:24:30,764 --> 00:24:33,724
Speaker 1: heads up against the fish than to be heads up

421
00:24:33,724 --> 00:24:34,604
Speaker 1: against the crusher.

422
00:24:35,284 --> 00:24:37,844
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of luck in all of the

423
00:24:37,924 --> 00:24:41,644
Speaker 2: games as well, and I think that's often understated. You know,

424
00:24:42,844 --> 00:24:45,164
Speaker 2: the one thing about me and the way I play

425
00:24:45,804 --> 00:24:49,644
Speaker 2: is I understand the parameters, I understand the rules, I

426
00:24:49,684 --> 00:24:52,764
Speaker 2: understand what I'm signing up for before I play. This

427
00:24:52,844 --> 00:24:56,444
Speaker 2: is the game. Only one person's gonna win. So when

428
00:24:56,484 --> 00:25:00,244
Speaker 2: it's over, I've always been like a good sport, I'll

429
00:25:00,244 --> 00:25:02,964
Speaker 2: shake your hand. It's good I won, I lost, I

430
00:25:03,004 --> 00:25:05,004
Speaker 2: did my best and that's all you can do.

431
00:25:05,324 --> 00:25:07,884
Speaker 1: That's such a great attitude. Is that kind of would

432
00:25:07,924 --> 00:25:11,004
Speaker 1: you say that that's kind of the secret or are

433
00:25:11,044 --> 00:25:13,684
Speaker 1: there other things to your kind of resilience and your

434
00:25:13,724 --> 00:25:16,484
Speaker 1: ability to kind of come back after you've lost. Right

435
00:25:16,524 --> 00:25:19,324
Speaker 1: as you said, it took you four times to come

436
00:25:19,364 --> 00:25:21,044
Speaker 1: back and a lot of people would just say screw

437
00:25:21,084 --> 00:25:24,764
Speaker 1: this right like I'm done being humiliated on TV? How

438
00:25:24,804 --> 00:25:28,564
Speaker 1: do you you know? Mentally? Is it just kind of

439
00:25:28,684 --> 00:25:30,644
Speaker 1: enough to say, you know, I've been playing my best

440
00:25:30,684 --> 00:25:34,604
Speaker 1: and I keep doing better and I'll just keep preparing.

441
00:25:34,684 --> 00:25:36,404
Speaker 1: Is that how you frame it? Or do you have

442
00:25:36,524 --> 00:25:39,804
Speaker 1: kind of other tricks for dealing with when you lose

443
00:25:39,844 --> 00:25:41,804
Speaker 1: and when you know when it doesn't go your way,

444
00:25:41,884 --> 00:25:44,244
Speaker 1: even though your strategy seemed to be solid.

445
00:25:44,564 --> 00:25:46,924
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do

446
00:25:47,004 --> 00:25:49,684
Speaker 2: with how I was raised. You know, like growing up

447
00:25:49,724 --> 00:25:52,964
Speaker 2: in Boston, nobody's patting me on the back. You know,

448
00:25:53,084 --> 00:25:55,284
Speaker 2: you didn't you don't win. Get in there, kid, and

449
00:25:55,284 --> 00:25:58,324
Speaker 2: fight again. You know, get up, you get knocked down,

450
00:25:58,724 --> 00:26:02,324
Speaker 2: get up. You gotta be tough. My parents raised me

451
00:26:02,524 --> 00:26:06,204
Speaker 2: to be resilient. And you know, like I went out

452
00:26:06,204 --> 00:26:09,124
Speaker 2: there the first time and I played my heart out,

453
00:26:09,164 --> 00:26:12,324
Speaker 2: but I was also not as focused and then like

454
00:26:12,404 --> 00:26:15,844
Speaker 2: I realized, oh man, I missed a big opportunity. Luckily,

455
00:26:15,884 --> 00:26:19,124
Speaker 2: I made enough of an impact that I was given

456
00:26:19,164 --> 00:26:23,004
Speaker 2: the opportunity to come back and play again. So I think,

457
00:26:23,124 --> 00:26:27,204
Speaker 2: you know, like it's the same skill set in lessons

458
00:26:27,244 --> 00:26:30,284
Speaker 2: I try to teach my own kids now, and that

459
00:26:30,524 --> 00:26:33,604
Speaker 2: is like, if you want something, you have to fight

460
00:26:33,724 --> 00:26:36,484
Speaker 2: for it, and you have to do your best. And

461
00:26:36,644 --> 00:26:39,324
Speaker 2: if you do your best, if you really do, and

462
00:26:39,364 --> 00:26:41,964
Speaker 2: the only person that knows if they do their best

463
00:26:42,044 --> 00:26:44,844
Speaker 2: is themselves. And if you do do your best, that's

464
00:26:44,884 --> 00:26:46,724
Speaker 2: all you can do. You can be proud of yourself.

465
00:26:47,164 --> 00:26:50,204
Speaker 2: So like with Traders, like I knew I was up

466
00:26:50,244 --> 00:26:52,364
Speaker 2: against it, they did me no favors the way they

467
00:26:52,404 --> 00:26:54,804
Speaker 2: started the game. They put me on a pedestal like

468
00:26:54,964 --> 00:26:59,004
Speaker 2: I have a target anyway. And at first I'm like, oh, man,

469
00:26:59,164 --> 00:27:01,284
Speaker 2: like this is gonna be really hard. It's like yeah,

470
00:27:01,324 --> 00:27:04,204
Speaker 2: but it's gonna be really hard. And the truth is

471
00:27:04,924 --> 00:27:09,804
Speaker 2: like I love the challenge and I feel like I

472
00:27:09,804 --> 00:27:12,444
Speaker 2: don't know, it's like a sickness or whatever, but I

473
00:27:12,524 --> 00:27:16,284
Speaker 2: do better under pressure. Like a lot of people don't

474
00:27:16,924 --> 00:27:20,964
Speaker 2: like the pressure. I need the pressure like I do.

475
00:27:21,044 --> 00:27:22,564
Speaker 2: I needed to perform.

476
00:27:22,844 --> 00:27:25,244
Speaker 1: That's really interesting because I was actually going to ask

477
00:27:25,284 --> 00:27:27,684
Speaker 1: you about kind of your mental game and how you

478
00:27:27,764 --> 00:27:31,244
Speaker 1: maintain your cool under you under pressure right in those

479
00:27:31,324 --> 00:27:34,804
Speaker 1: lights is what I studied. So for my graduate degree

480
00:27:34,844 --> 00:27:38,204
Speaker 1: in psychology, I actually studied hot decision making, right decision

481
00:27:38,244 --> 00:27:43,204
Speaker 1: making under emotional conditions, and which is it tells you

482
00:27:43,244 --> 00:27:45,284
Speaker 1: a lot about a person. And it's very different right

483
00:27:45,324 --> 00:27:48,524
Speaker 1: from decision making when you have lots of time and

484
00:27:49,124 --> 00:27:51,924
Speaker 1: there are there is a subset of person who performs

485
00:27:52,004 --> 00:27:55,004
Speaker 1: really well right under kind of under the lights, under

486
00:27:55,004 --> 00:27:59,644
Speaker 1: those hot conditions. It's a really interesting skill, and I'm curious,

487
00:27:59,804 --> 00:28:02,884
Speaker 1: do you feel like you've improved at that or that's

488
00:28:02,924 --> 00:28:04,604
Speaker 1: something that you've just always been good at.

489
00:28:04,724 --> 00:28:07,404
Speaker 2: I just think like in general, as time goes on,

490
00:28:07,644 --> 00:28:10,964
Speaker 2: people get more life experience. So once you have more

491
00:28:11,004 --> 00:28:14,924
Speaker 2: life experience, once you're adept at doing this stuff, and

492
00:28:14,964 --> 00:28:18,884
Speaker 2: it's like you playing poker against a bunch of people, Like, yes,

493
00:28:19,044 --> 00:28:21,444
Speaker 2: there's a chance they could get super lucky and win,

494
00:28:21,964 --> 00:28:25,444
Speaker 2: it's unlikely over the course of an entire tournament that

495
00:28:25,484 --> 00:28:28,004
Speaker 2: they'll beat you, because like you have the time to

496
00:28:28,044 --> 00:28:31,124
Speaker 2: be able to execute the correct moves and you're going

497
00:28:31,204 --> 00:28:32,844
Speaker 2: to catch them out there with two pair when you

498
00:28:32,884 --> 00:28:36,644
Speaker 2: have a set or whatever. It is like you know

499
00:28:36,844 --> 00:28:39,564
Speaker 2: enough not to put your whole game at risk against

500
00:28:39,564 --> 00:28:41,724
Speaker 2: a bunch of amateurs because you'll be able to find

501
00:28:41,724 --> 00:28:46,364
Speaker 2: the spots right. So as time has gone by, I

502
00:28:46,604 --> 00:28:51,444
Speaker 2: understand the nuances of not only the competition aspect, but

503
00:28:51,524 --> 00:28:54,884
Speaker 2: the production aspect too, Like the time it takes, how

504
00:28:54,964 --> 00:28:57,964
Speaker 2: long it takes to do this, Like when you have

505
00:28:58,004 --> 00:29:00,404
Speaker 2: to make a move. One of the biggest mistakes I

506
00:29:00,524 --> 00:29:04,604
Speaker 2: see time and time again with poker players that try

507
00:29:04,644 --> 00:29:09,884
Speaker 2: to translate to reality TV competition. It's like when you're

508
00:29:09,884 --> 00:29:13,444
Speaker 2: playing a tournament and trying to win the tournament in

509
00:29:13,524 --> 00:29:18,364
Speaker 2: the first level, like they play too good, too fast,

510
00:29:18,444 --> 00:29:20,924
Speaker 2: like they got something to prove. There's no way you

511
00:29:20,924 --> 00:29:22,764
Speaker 2: can't win. You play in a four day tournament. You

512
00:29:22,884 --> 00:29:24,884
Speaker 2: got to last four days to be able to win.

513
00:29:25,804 --> 00:29:28,244
Speaker 2: So I don't care how great your spot is. In

514
00:29:28,404 --> 00:29:32,084
Speaker 2: level two, someone puts you to the test, like you

515
00:29:32,204 --> 00:29:34,324
Speaker 2: have to ask, if it's not a rebuy tournament, is

516
00:29:34,364 --> 00:29:38,244
Speaker 2: it worth really the risk versus reward? And I think

517
00:29:38,404 --> 00:29:42,844
Speaker 2: that's a lot of what I'm able to bring to

518
00:29:43,204 --> 00:29:46,924
Speaker 2: the table when it comes to these competitions is being

519
00:29:46,964 --> 00:29:50,444
Speaker 2: able to balance and understanding the risk versus the reward

520
00:29:50,804 --> 00:29:55,844
Speaker 2: versus someone that's never done it before, they don't have

521
00:29:56,444 --> 00:29:57,484
Speaker 2: that experience.

522
00:29:57,964 --> 00:30:01,724
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that's I think that's a absolutely crucial skill.

523
00:30:02,404 --> 00:30:06,124
Speaker 1: And in poker, you know, knowing picking those spots is

524
00:30:06,164 --> 00:30:10,844
Speaker 1: incredibly important, and you know, sometimes you find yourself struggling

525
00:30:10,844 --> 00:30:12,724
Speaker 1: with it because you really want to take the spot

526
00:30:12,804 --> 00:30:15,244
Speaker 1: and like you have two people in your head talking

527
00:30:15,284 --> 00:30:18,124
Speaker 1: being like no, like, don't do it. Especially you know,

528
00:30:18,164 --> 00:30:20,084
Speaker 1: if it's not a rebuy tournament, you do have to

529
00:30:20,084 --> 00:30:22,604
Speaker 1: think is it worth it? Even if it's a rebuy tournament.

530
00:30:22,804 --> 00:30:24,764
Speaker 1: You know, there's an element of luck, and I think

531
00:30:24,804 --> 00:30:28,724
Speaker 1: that we can translate this somewhat to reality TV. How's

532
00:30:28,764 --> 00:30:31,524
Speaker 1: your table, drap, Right? Who are the other people at

533
00:30:31,524 --> 00:30:33,964
Speaker 1: your table? There might be some tables of crushers and

534
00:30:34,004 --> 00:30:37,244
Speaker 1: you're at a table with all amateurs, right, And you

535
00:30:37,324 --> 00:30:40,324
Speaker 1: think about if I take this spot right now and

536
00:30:40,404 --> 00:30:44,084
Speaker 1: I bust, I'm going to rebuy onto a different table,

537
00:30:44,724 --> 00:30:47,604
Speaker 1: and my EV is going to go down because my

538
00:30:47,644 --> 00:30:50,364
Speaker 1: IV at this table is much higher. It's like the

539
00:30:50,364 --> 00:30:53,124
Speaker 1: first season of Traders, right, I'm playing against a field

540
00:30:53,164 --> 00:30:55,924
Speaker 1: of inexperienced players, and instead I might get you at

541
00:30:55,964 --> 00:30:59,124
Speaker 1: my table next time around, right, and be in a

542
00:30:59,204 --> 00:31:04,724
Speaker 1: much worse situation. And so sometimes emotion or the pressure

543
00:31:04,804 --> 00:31:06,764
Speaker 1: or whatever it gets the better of you and you

544
00:31:06,884 --> 00:31:10,524
Speaker 1: take a spot. Even that technically it's plus it's minus

545
00:31:10,564 --> 00:31:13,404
Speaker 1: CV in the long term, because the EV isn't just

546
00:31:13,444 --> 00:31:14,564
Speaker 1: the math, right.

547
00:31:14,964 --> 00:31:20,044
Speaker 2: Being able to recognize that is super important because they're

548
00:31:20,164 --> 00:31:25,204
Speaker 2: also the opposite is true. So like to me, sometimes

549
00:31:25,244 --> 00:31:28,404
Speaker 2: there's an opportunity to take a spot where it's gonna

550
00:31:28,444 --> 00:31:32,964
Speaker 2: make all the difference, but other people are fearful of

551
00:31:33,124 --> 00:31:36,204
Speaker 2: taking that spot. And I've seen it time and time

552
00:31:36,244 --> 00:31:40,804
Speaker 2: again and survivor where this is your moment. Your moment

553
00:31:41,004 --> 00:31:44,044
Speaker 2: isn't at the final three. Your moment is at six

554
00:31:44,724 --> 00:31:47,924
Speaker 2: and you gotta do something now. But you know, if

555
00:31:47,964 --> 00:31:49,924
Speaker 2: you kne what you make this move that you have

556
00:31:50,004 --> 00:31:52,684
Speaker 2: to make now, it's gonna set you up to win,

557
00:31:53,284 --> 00:31:56,964
Speaker 2: where if you don't, the best you're gonna do is

558
00:31:57,044 --> 00:31:59,564
Speaker 2: second or third. You might get to the end, but

559
00:31:59,684 --> 00:32:03,644
Speaker 2: you lose it. So I think knowing when to take

560
00:32:03,764 --> 00:32:08,924
Speaker 2: the shot is the most important. Like you have to

561
00:32:09,564 --> 00:32:13,524
Speaker 2: can't be afraid. I've always said to me, it doesn't

562
00:32:13,604 --> 00:32:19,164
Speaker 2: matter if I finished seventh or tenth or fourteenth or second.

563
00:32:19,484 --> 00:32:22,764
Speaker 2: I'm playing to win. So you have to set yourself

564
00:32:22,844 --> 00:32:25,804
Speaker 2: up to win. With the bob the drag queen stuff.

565
00:32:26,084 --> 00:32:28,124
Speaker 2: People say like, yeah, you could have made it early.

566
00:32:28,164 --> 00:32:30,924
Speaker 2: You didn't have to make that move so early. Maybe

567
00:32:30,964 --> 00:32:33,604
Speaker 2: I didn't, Maybe I could have figured out another way,

568
00:32:35,324 --> 00:32:37,764
Speaker 2: But in my mind at the time, that was a

569
00:32:37,804 --> 00:32:41,484
Speaker 2: correct decision. And being able to know when it is

570
00:32:41,564 --> 00:32:44,564
Speaker 2: even if you're fearful of it and execute on it

571
00:32:44,604 --> 00:32:45,404
Speaker 2: is imperative.

572
00:32:47,644 --> 00:33:04,124
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. It's funny, you know now that

573
00:33:04,204 --> 00:33:06,364
Speaker 1: I think about it, because I was like, oh, you know,

574
00:33:06,604 --> 00:33:08,924
Speaker 1: I don't do a lot of the stuff that you

575
00:33:09,004 --> 00:33:11,084
Speaker 1: know Rob does on reality TV. But now that I

576
00:33:11,124 --> 00:33:14,444
Speaker 1: think about it, I actually talk to players much more

577
00:33:14,484 --> 00:33:16,884
Speaker 1: than other people do at the table, but because I'm

578
00:33:16,884 --> 00:33:19,204
Speaker 1: friendly and you know, I want to be a welcoming,

579
00:33:19,244 --> 00:33:21,964
Speaker 1: good ambassador. But they also give me very valuable information

580
00:33:22,084 --> 00:33:24,204
Speaker 1: because they'll tell me, oh, you know, this is my

581
00:33:24,244 --> 00:33:27,404
Speaker 1: wife's birthday present to me to be in this tournament,

582
00:33:27,804 --> 00:33:30,444
Speaker 1: and like this is my one tournament of kind of

583
00:33:30,484 --> 00:33:33,724
Speaker 1: and I'm really excited versus you know, oh my god,

584
00:33:33,764 --> 00:33:36,644
Speaker 1: you know, tournament number twenty and right away you know

585
00:33:36,684 --> 00:33:39,644
Speaker 1: how important it is for them, right what the stakes are.

586
00:33:39,924 --> 00:33:42,644
Speaker 2: It's important to know that on the beach. We do

587
00:33:42,724 --> 00:33:45,364
Speaker 2: that in the downtime where we learn about the people,

588
00:33:45,444 --> 00:33:48,444
Speaker 2: their families, everything. You know. I've been working a lot

589
00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:51,884
Speaker 2: with Chance Cornet over the last few years and he's

590
00:33:52,124 --> 00:33:55,084
Speaker 2: like a huge proponent of you make a day too.

591
00:33:55,204 --> 00:33:57,844
Speaker 2: You look up the people, you find out their stats,

592
00:33:58,164 --> 00:34:00,724
Speaker 2: you learn about them as much as you can. Yes,

593
00:34:00,844 --> 00:34:05,164
Speaker 2: So it's not like I think poker has moved away

594
00:34:05,444 --> 00:34:08,884
Speaker 2: from the social element as much in terms of like

595
00:34:08,964 --> 00:34:12,924
Speaker 2: there's not as much chattiness and conversations at the table

596
00:34:12,924 --> 00:34:15,684
Speaker 2: at the higher stakes anymore. I mean you still find

597
00:34:15,684 --> 00:34:18,684
Speaker 2: it in like the local like small wreck games and stuff.

598
00:34:19,044 --> 00:34:21,244
Speaker 2: So you have to be able to be willing to

599
00:34:21,324 --> 00:34:24,524
Speaker 2: put in the extra work to do that. And what

600
00:34:24,564 --> 00:34:28,804
Speaker 2: you're saying like that's unbelievable, like you're doing recon on

601
00:34:28,844 --> 00:34:29,484
Speaker 2: your opponents.

602
00:34:29,524 --> 00:34:31,164
Speaker 1: You have to do it in the moment when you can.

603
00:34:31,204 --> 00:34:34,644
Speaker 1: And yes, absolutely, I think it's a huge You're just

604
00:34:34,724 --> 00:34:36,764
Speaker 1: leaving money on the table if you don't take the

605
00:34:36,804 --> 00:34:40,524
Speaker 1: time to research your tablemates from day two on. And

606
00:34:40,564 --> 00:34:42,724
Speaker 1: a lot of times people don't, right, they don't look

607
00:34:42,764 --> 00:34:45,004
Speaker 1: up their seat draft where they're lazy or they're tired

608
00:34:45,084 --> 00:34:48,444
Speaker 1: because you played to you know, one am and you

609
00:34:48,484 --> 00:34:50,564
Speaker 1: want to maximize your sleep. You don't want to take

610
00:34:50,564 --> 00:34:52,924
Speaker 1: that hour or however long it takes. But it's always

611
00:34:52,924 --> 00:34:56,444
Speaker 1: worth it, I know, every single time, because you learn

612
00:34:56,564 --> 00:34:57,964
Speaker 1: so much and that's what.

613
00:34:58,084 --> 00:35:00,284
Speaker 2: You become obsessive about it. So let me ask you

614
00:35:00,324 --> 00:35:03,284
Speaker 2: a question, because you went from journalists to poker player, like,

615
00:35:03,364 --> 00:35:07,804
Speaker 2: do you think there's a point where it becomes too encompassing?

616
00:35:07,964 --> 00:35:11,244
Speaker 2: Because my relationship with poker has been like this over

617
00:35:11,284 --> 00:35:14,324
Speaker 2: the last you know, my whole life. Really, I love it.

618
00:35:14,404 --> 00:35:16,644
Speaker 2: I have time, I want to play, I want to

619
00:35:16,684 --> 00:35:19,884
Speaker 2: do it. I'm into it. But at some point, it's

620
00:35:20,004 --> 00:35:23,884
Speaker 2: like when I hear about like the eve of sleeping

621
00:35:23,884 --> 00:35:26,964
Speaker 2: in this hotel at that hotel, Like it becomes like

622
00:35:27,004 --> 00:35:29,884
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, I'm going to play a tournament that

623
00:35:29,924 --> 00:35:32,484
Speaker 2: costs ten thousand, I'm going to sleep in a good hotel.

624
00:35:32,564 --> 00:35:35,164
Speaker 2: I'm going to order room service. Like, you know, the

625
00:35:35,244 --> 00:35:42,524
Speaker 2: lifestyle itself, it can become too encompassing where every decision

626
00:35:42,564 --> 00:35:46,004
Speaker 2: outside of that becomes about it. Do you find yourself

627
00:35:46,044 --> 00:35:46,884
Speaker 2: falling into that now?

628
00:35:47,004 --> 00:35:49,044
Speaker 1: I mean, I try to maintain balance because it isn't,

629
00:35:49,084 --> 00:35:50,924
Speaker 1: you know, my full time career. Like I'm working on

630
00:35:50,924 --> 00:35:54,324
Speaker 1: my next book right now, I have this podcast, I have,

631
00:35:54,804 --> 00:35:57,884
Speaker 1: you know, I read a weekly substock, Like I'm working

632
00:35:57,884 --> 00:35:59,644
Speaker 1: on a bunch of screen projects. So I have a

633
00:35:59,644 --> 00:36:02,164
Speaker 1: lot of other things going on at the same time.

634
00:36:02,244 --> 00:36:04,924
Speaker 1: So I think that helps me kind of maintain perspective.

635
00:36:05,284 --> 00:36:07,524
Speaker 1: And for me, I try to kind of think of

636
00:36:07,564 --> 00:36:10,564
Speaker 1: poker as something that I love that teaches me a

637
00:36:10,604 --> 00:36:15,204
Speaker 1: lot about decision making, and that's constantly helping, right because

638
00:36:15,204 --> 00:36:18,244
Speaker 1: it's still I think it is still teaching me things

639
00:36:18,284 --> 00:36:21,724
Speaker 1: about myself. About the decision making process. And I'm still

640
00:36:21,724 --> 00:36:26,204
Speaker 1: evolving as a thinker in ways that help outside of

641
00:36:26,244 --> 00:36:29,204
Speaker 1: the poker world. So I feel like it's still giving

642
00:36:29,244 --> 00:36:31,524
Speaker 1: a lot to me. And I think that it's a

643
00:36:31,564 --> 00:36:35,964
Speaker 1: game that is incredibly powerful for other people. Right, I

644
00:36:36,084 --> 00:36:38,284
Speaker 1: want it to be a popular game because I think

645
00:36:38,324 --> 00:36:38,844
Speaker 1: it could help me.

646
00:36:38,924 --> 00:36:39,244
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.

647
00:36:39,284 --> 00:36:41,284
Speaker 1: I want you to teach your daughter's poker because I

648
00:36:41,284 --> 00:36:44,364
Speaker 1: think it would help make them smarter kind of better

649
00:36:44,404 --> 00:36:46,324
Speaker 1: players right at life?

650
00:36:46,604 --> 00:36:49,724
Speaker 2: Right? Better? Yeah, of course it does. It does. Like

651
00:36:49,804 --> 00:36:54,284
Speaker 2: poker is a game that's super relevant in the business world,

652
00:36:54,804 --> 00:37:01,564
Speaker 2: in negotiating, in understanding discipline. There's so many different attributes

653
00:37:01,604 --> 00:37:05,484
Speaker 2: that the game helps in life. At the same time,

654
00:37:05,884 --> 00:37:09,004
Speaker 2: it has a horrible reputation it does, I know from

655
00:37:09,044 --> 00:37:11,684
Speaker 2: the world the television, Like any time I try to

656
00:37:11,724 --> 00:37:14,844
Speaker 2: bring up any project that includes it, it has this

657
00:37:15,044 --> 00:37:19,044
Speaker 2: stigma attached to it. And I think it's because and

658
00:37:19,084 --> 00:37:22,404
Speaker 2: you can tell me why you think. But like, there

659
00:37:22,444 --> 00:37:24,684
Speaker 2: are lots of great things about the game of poker,

660
00:37:25,324 --> 00:37:29,484
Speaker 2: but there are some people that ruin it for everyone

661
00:37:29,524 --> 00:37:35,044
Speaker 2: else in terms of collusion, cheating, real time assistants, all

662
00:37:35,044 --> 00:37:38,684
Speaker 2: these different other things that involve in it. And then

663
00:37:38,724 --> 00:37:42,284
Speaker 2: When people hear that, they don't want anything to do

664
00:37:42,404 --> 00:37:45,404
Speaker 2: with it, because, let's face it, on a basic level,

665
00:37:45,724 --> 00:37:49,044
Speaker 2: everybody understands risks verus reward. Smart people invest in the

666
00:37:49,124 --> 00:37:52,844
Speaker 2: stock market, some people are buying lottery tickets, people are

667
00:37:52,844 --> 00:37:55,964
Speaker 2: betting on football games with their friends. What is it

668
00:37:56,004 --> 00:37:59,284
Speaker 2: about poker that gives it such a bad connotation?

669
00:37:59,524 --> 00:38:03,244
Speaker 1: So I think it's actually kind of historical, and I

670
00:38:03,284 --> 00:38:07,124
Speaker 1: think that it comes from kind of a puritanical kind

671
00:38:07,204 --> 00:38:11,604
Speaker 1: of background to American culture, where they bucket it in

672
00:38:11,684 --> 00:38:12,164
Speaker 1: with vice.

673
00:38:12,604 --> 00:38:12,764
Speaker 2: Right.

674
00:38:12,804 --> 00:38:15,764
Speaker 1: They see it as kind of a casino game where

675
00:38:15,844 --> 00:38:18,044
Speaker 1: it's not right. I always try to explain to people

676
00:38:18,084 --> 00:38:20,564
Speaker 1: that it's actually different from every other game in a casino,

677
00:38:20,924 --> 00:38:23,404
Speaker 1: because every game in a casino is gambling, and poker

678
00:38:23,444 --> 00:38:25,364
Speaker 1: at the end is a skill game with an element

679
00:38:25,444 --> 00:38:28,484
Speaker 1: of luck, because in poker, you can win holding the

680
00:38:28,524 --> 00:38:31,364
Speaker 1: worst hand and you can lose holding the best hand,

681
00:38:31,844 --> 00:38:35,524
Speaker 1: and that's the definition of skill, whereas in any other

682
00:38:35,564 --> 00:38:37,244
Speaker 1: game in the casino you have to have the best.

683
00:38:37,124 --> 00:38:38,404
Speaker 2: Of it right. You can't.

684
00:38:38,484 --> 00:38:41,044
Speaker 1: You can't beat the house if you don't have the

685
00:38:41,044 --> 00:38:41,604
Speaker 1: best hand.

686
00:38:41,844 --> 00:38:41,964
Speaker 2: Right.

687
00:38:42,004 --> 00:38:44,524
Speaker 1: It's just kind of their strategy, of course, but that

688
00:38:44,524 --> 00:38:46,524
Speaker 1: it's kind of how the chips fall, how the how

689
00:38:46,564 --> 00:38:47,924
Speaker 1: the ball rolls, how the cards fall.

690
00:38:48,044 --> 00:38:51,164
Speaker 2: They have a built in edge obviously that makes it you.

691
00:38:51,084 --> 00:38:53,364
Speaker 1: Know, negative exactly, but poker.

692
00:38:53,124 --> 00:38:55,164
Speaker 2: So what needs to happen? Does it need to come

693
00:38:55,204 --> 00:38:56,004
Speaker 2: out of the casino?

694
00:38:56,444 --> 00:38:58,364
Speaker 1: So I think that that's that's part of it. But

695
00:38:58,404 --> 00:39:01,364
Speaker 1: I think also having good spokespeople for it, who try

696
00:39:01,404 --> 00:39:04,204
Speaker 1: to explain to people that what it actually is and

697
00:39:04,244 --> 00:39:07,404
Speaker 1: what it can actually bring is part of the part

698
00:39:07,404 --> 00:39:09,844
Speaker 1: of the journey. But it's an uphill batter and it's

699
00:39:09,884 --> 00:39:12,044
Speaker 1: one that you know, with the biggest bluff I.

700
00:39:12,084 --> 00:39:13,404
Speaker 2: Tried to fight. I was kind of the.

701
00:39:14,044 --> 00:39:16,084
Speaker 1: Beginning of it, and I continue to do it my

702
00:39:16,124 --> 00:39:19,124
Speaker 1: next book, you know, to your point about kind of

703
00:39:19,164 --> 00:39:22,324
Speaker 1: the negative elements in poker, I think that's also a factor.

704
00:39:22,364 --> 00:39:25,044
Speaker 1: My next book is about cheating in games. And so

705
00:39:25,164 --> 00:39:28,564
Speaker 1: because I actually am a firm believer that sunlight, you know,

706
00:39:28,644 --> 00:39:32,884
Speaker 1: is the best disinfectant, that's actually a very good saying,

707
00:39:33,044 --> 00:39:36,084
Speaker 1: because it makes the game stronger and better if people

708
00:39:36,204 --> 00:39:39,364
Speaker 1: know that cheaters are held accountable, that this kind of

709
00:39:39,404 --> 00:39:42,324
Speaker 1: thing is actually frowned upon, that it's not an accepted

710
00:39:42,364 --> 00:39:44,804
Speaker 1: part of the game, and that the game, you know,

711
00:39:45,084 --> 00:39:47,364
Speaker 1: that you will be that you'll be safe because the

712
00:39:47,444 --> 00:39:49,724
Speaker 1: game cares right and it will and.

713
00:39:49,764 --> 00:39:52,364
Speaker 2: Every other aspect of life if you cheat their concerts

714
00:39:52,484 --> 00:39:53,964
Speaker 2: exactly exactly.

715
00:39:54,324 --> 00:39:56,884
Speaker 1: And I'm not just writing about poker. I'm writing about

716
00:39:57,204 --> 00:40:01,244
Speaker 1: all games. And I think that you know, that's the

717
00:40:01,284 --> 00:40:04,244
Speaker 1: reason I'm interested in it is kind of the life

718
00:40:04,364 --> 00:40:07,324
Speaker 1: app applicability, right, because all of life is kind of

719
00:40:07,564 --> 00:40:08,964
Speaker 1: a game, if you think about it.

720
00:40:09,404 --> 00:40:09,724
Speaker 2: The rules.

721
00:40:09,844 --> 00:40:14,244
Speaker 1: We live in a society that has rules and you

722
00:40:14,764 --> 00:40:17,084
Speaker 1: live by those rules. And when the rules start changing

723
00:40:17,204 --> 00:40:20,004
Speaker 1: or people don't get punished for breaking the rules, you know,

724
00:40:20,084 --> 00:40:22,164
Speaker 1: that's eyebrow raising I'm concerning.

725
00:40:22,244 --> 00:40:24,804
Speaker 2: Yeah, the problem is sometimes the rules are not so

726
00:40:24,924 --> 00:40:28,244
Speaker 2: well defined, right in a game like poker, where you're

727
00:40:28,604 --> 00:40:34,644
Speaker 2: rewarded for pushing the edge. It's like what is acceptable

728
00:40:34,684 --> 00:40:37,404
Speaker 2: what isn't acceptable? And I'm not talking about like what

729
00:40:37,524 --> 00:40:40,124
Speaker 2: beats what or whether you use something or not, but

730
00:40:40,244 --> 00:40:45,404
Speaker 2: like you know, a lot of areas are gray, and

731
00:40:45,484 --> 00:40:48,684
Speaker 2: sometimes things are frowned upon where other ways it's considered.

732
00:40:48,884 --> 00:40:51,644
Speaker 2: You know, they're applauded for their outside the box thinking.

733
00:40:51,924 --> 00:40:57,284
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So it's you know the difference in sportsmanship versus gamesmanship. Right,

734
00:40:57,404 --> 00:41:00,444
Speaker 1: So are you a good sportsman, and sometimes gamesmanship flies

735
00:41:00,444 --> 00:41:03,684
Speaker 1: in the face of that. And there are areas of

736
00:41:03,724 --> 00:41:06,964
Speaker 1: gray right, shades of gray angle shooting and poker, for instance.

737
00:41:07,324 --> 00:41:09,164
Speaker 1: And you know what I say is I hate it.

738
00:41:09,444 --> 00:41:12,004
Speaker 1: I hate angle shooters. But change the rules if you

739
00:41:12,084 --> 00:41:15,204
Speaker 1: actually want to punish them, because when they're not breaking

740
00:41:15,244 --> 00:41:17,764
Speaker 1: the rules, they're technically still within the rules of the game.

741
00:41:18,164 --> 00:41:23,084
Speaker 1: I personally wouldn't do it and really look down on it,

742
00:41:23,164 --> 00:41:25,804
Speaker 1: but you can't do anything right if it's within the rules.

743
00:41:25,924 --> 00:41:28,884
Speaker 2: I'm a strong proponent of whatever you can do within

744
00:41:28,924 --> 00:41:31,244
Speaker 2: the context of the game. I've done it on the

745
00:41:31,284 --> 00:41:34,964
Speaker 2: Amazing Race. I use their own rules against them with

746
00:41:35,044 --> 00:41:38,324
Speaker 2: the meat eating challenge and understanding what the penalty was,

747
00:41:38,404 --> 00:41:41,004
Speaker 2: and then knowing that if I got other teams to

748
00:41:41,124 --> 00:41:43,564
Speaker 2: also quit the challenge, that I would still be ahead.

749
00:41:44,044 --> 00:41:46,524
Speaker 2: And they're scratching their heads and they're mad on the sidelines,

750
00:41:46,564 --> 00:41:49,084
Speaker 2: and it's like I think, maybe after they change the rules,

751
00:41:49,404 --> 00:41:52,964
Speaker 2: but like they're you know, at one point I bribed

752
00:41:52,964 --> 00:41:55,684
Speaker 2: a bus driver. I took a collection of people's money

753
00:41:56,044 --> 00:41:58,044
Speaker 2: and bribed them with their money and didn't put my

754
00:41:58,084 --> 00:42:00,084
Speaker 2: own in. But I didn't say I was going to

755
00:42:01,484 --> 00:42:02,044
Speaker 2: It's funny.

756
00:42:02,084 --> 00:42:07,204
Speaker 1: So you're very good gamesman as well. Right, So it's

757
00:42:07,204 --> 00:42:09,364
Speaker 1: a really interesting thing. I mean, some of the best

758
00:42:09,484 --> 00:42:12,404
Speaker 1: athletes are very good at gamesmanship. Right, I've written about

759
00:42:12,684 --> 00:42:15,524
Speaker 1: and he'll go in my buck Tiger Woods for instance.

760
00:42:15,764 --> 00:42:19,364
Speaker 1: You know, he's had some really eyebrow raising moments where

761
00:42:19,404 --> 00:42:21,964
Speaker 1: he's used the rule book technically correctly. You know, he

762
00:42:22,004 --> 00:42:24,124
Speaker 1: didn't cheat, but at some point, like he had a

763
00:42:24,164 --> 00:42:27,844
Speaker 1: boulder moved using the loose impediments rule. The rule ended

764
00:42:27,884 --> 00:42:30,364
Speaker 1: up changing after he did that, but it was like,

765
00:42:30,444 --> 00:42:33,004
Speaker 1: holy shit, dude, you know you can't do that, but

766
00:42:33,204 --> 00:42:36,084
Speaker 1: like he was technically within the rules.

767
00:42:36,564 --> 00:42:38,364
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so so much. I mean, it's like the

768
00:42:38,444 --> 00:42:41,244
Speaker 2: ballplayer on first base its fakes to throw it back

769
00:42:41,284 --> 00:42:43,764
Speaker 2: to the pitcher and then tags them out, like you know,

770
00:42:43,924 --> 00:42:48,404
Speaker 2: like I don't know. I think like if someone's ingenuitive

771
00:42:48,484 --> 00:42:51,724
Speaker 2: to figure out a creative way to gain an edge

772
00:42:51,924 --> 00:42:55,404
Speaker 2: with in the context of the rules, I personally think

773
00:42:55,404 --> 00:42:58,684
Speaker 2: that should be applauded. There's a lot of gray area,

774
00:42:58,804 --> 00:42:59,564
Speaker 2: but it depends.

775
00:42:59,644 --> 00:43:03,284
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, So what do you think kind of

776
00:43:03,964 --> 00:43:05,964
Speaker 1: you know, we just talked about poker and kind of

777
00:43:06,004 --> 00:43:08,764
Speaker 1: the huge value that it can give in terms of

778
00:43:08,804 --> 00:43:11,444
Speaker 1: thinking to say making So, since you're both a poker

779
00:43:11,484 --> 00:43:15,964
Speaker 1: player and I don't know a player of reality TV,

780
00:43:17,404 --> 00:43:20,284
Speaker 1: do you think that the reality TV has kind of

781
00:43:20,564 --> 00:43:24,404
Speaker 1: as much educational value or kind of value and decision making?

782
00:43:24,444 --> 00:43:26,684
Speaker 1: Like would you I just said you should, you know,

783
00:43:26,724 --> 00:43:29,724
Speaker 1: teach your girls poker if you haven't already, I'm sure

784
00:43:29,764 --> 00:43:32,204
Speaker 1: you have already, Like would you want them to like

785
00:43:32,284 --> 00:43:34,404
Speaker 1: do you think that would you recommend for them to

786
00:43:34,404 --> 00:43:36,684
Speaker 1: go on survivor for instance right as well? Like do

787
00:43:36,724 --> 00:43:39,844
Speaker 1: you think that that is something that is important or

788
00:43:40,044 --> 00:43:40,764
Speaker 1: or is it different?

789
00:43:41,724 --> 00:43:45,724
Speaker 2: So I think this because the experience I had the

790
00:43:45,764 --> 00:43:48,204
Speaker 2: season that I won that was one of the youngest

791
00:43:48,204 --> 00:43:51,564
Speaker 2: girls ever was on the show. Her name was Natalie Tenarelli.

792
00:43:51,604 --> 00:43:54,364
Speaker 2: I think she was only nineteen at the time, and

793
00:43:54,924 --> 00:43:57,964
Speaker 2: I don't think she had enough life experience to be

794
00:43:58,084 --> 00:44:01,284
Speaker 2: able to navigate that situation, especially playing with someone like

795
00:44:01,324 --> 00:44:04,244
Speaker 2: me and other people that were older that understood that

796
00:44:04,324 --> 00:44:07,324
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, and she was very naive. I ended

797
00:44:07,404 --> 00:44:08,644
Speaker 2: up going all the way to the end with her

798
00:44:08,684 --> 00:44:11,364
Speaker 2: because I knew I a beater and everything, and I

799
00:44:11,604 --> 00:44:14,004
Speaker 2: just like it was still good friends to this day.

800
00:44:14,564 --> 00:44:18,284
Speaker 2: But I think my girls, I'm giving them the foundation

801
00:44:18,524 --> 00:44:21,964
Speaker 2: to make good decisions, to understand theory, to understand that.

802
00:44:22,644 --> 00:44:27,564
Speaker 2: But I think there's not a replacement for life experience

803
00:44:28,204 --> 00:44:30,924
Speaker 2: that would Let's put it this way, as soon as

804
00:44:30,924 --> 00:44:32,764
Speaker 2: they turn eighteen and they're able to go on it,

805
00:44:32,964 --> 00:44:35,444
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have them sign up. But if they wanted

806
00:44:35,444 --> 00:44:37,044
Speaker 2: to do it when they were twenty three, twenty four

807
00:44:37,084 --> 00:44:40,004
Speaker 2: to twenty five, I would absolutely encourage them to do it.

808
00:44:40,444 --> 00:44:44,604
Speaker 2: But I think there is a threshold where you have

809
00:44:44,724 --> 00:44:49,284
Speaker 2: to have some kind of ups and downs and experience

810
00:44:49,684 --> 00:44:54,844
Speaker 2: outside of the safety of my home with me, you know,

811
00:44:55,124 --> 00:44:58,164
Speaker 2: on your own, to be able to handle the adversity

812
00:44:58,204 --> 00:45:00,964
Speaker 2: that you're going to face out there with seventeen eighteen

813
00:45:00,964 --> 00:45:03,124
Speaker 2: different other personalities. That's really interesting.

814
00:45:03,204 --> 00:45:05,964
Speaker 1: So poker in a way can be a training tool

815
00:45:06,084 --> 00:45:08,884
Speaker 1: for something like that as well, because poker is something

816
00:45:08,924 --> 00:45:11,164
Speaker 1: that gives you a lot of that kind of experience,

817
00:45:11,324 --> 00:45:15,684
Speaker 1: but not the other way around. I actually briefly chatted

818
00:45:15,764 --> 00:45:18,724
Speaker 1: with you, did not compete against her, but with another

819
00:45:18,964 --> 00:45:22,284
Speaker 1: member of traders who got really excited that I was

820
00:45:22,364 --> 00:45:26,204
Speaker 1: talking to you. Yenja Westgate. She's from Swedish. She did

821
00:45:26,204 --> 00:45:29,324
Speaker 1: the Swedish Traders. She kind of was interested in whether

822
00:45:29,804 --> 00:45:32,444
Speaker 1: how other games compare right, and how your background in

823
00:45:32,484 --> 00:45:35,804
Speaker 1: other games compared to that, and also kind of the

824
00:45:35,844 --> 00:45:39,204
Speaker 1: difficult things that the cameras don't capture right that go

825
00:45:39,284 --> 00:45:41,724
Speaker 1: on behind the scenes, which I think is really interesting,

826
00:45:41,764 --> 00:45:44,084
Speaker 1: Like the stuff that no one sees, I think is

827
00:45:44,124 --> 00:45:46,684
Speaker 1: probably just as important as the stuff that we do see.

828
00:45:46,764 --> 00:45:48,604
Speaker 2: Well, you have to understand is you go on to

829
00:45:48,644 --> 00:45:50,884
Speaker 2: make a TV show. You're playing a game, but they're

830
00:45:50,924 --> 00:45:54,684
Speaker 2: going to film everything and to be cognizant of the

831
00:45:54,724 --> 00:45:57,964
Speaker 2: person that you want to be represented as. They don't

832
00:45:57,964 --> 00:46:00,924
Speaker 2: go outside of their way to make you a villain.

833
00:46:00,964 --> 00:46:03,724
Speaker 2: If you're not a villain, they're not going to in

834
00:46:03,764 --> 00:46:07,164
Speaker 2: the same sentence, like make you into this heroic character.

835
00:46:07,244 --> 00:46:09,844
Speaker 2: If you're not, they pretty much stick to the script

836
00:46:09,924 --> 00:46:12,884
Speaker 2: of what you give them to me. Definitely, all of

837
00:46:12,924 --> 00:46:16,564
Speaker 2: the games have helped different games because I've learned from

838
00:46:16,724 --> 00:46:19,244
Speaker 2: each of them. You know, I don't know that one

839
00:46:19,644 --> 00:46:24,924
Speaker 2: is perhaps the best training ground for the others. But

840
00:46:25,124 --> 00:46:28,924
Speaker 2: Survivor is the realist of any of the games. And

841
00:46:28,924 --> 00:46:31,724
Speaker 2: when I say the realist, I mean you're actually out

842
00:46:31,804 --> 00:46:36,604
Speaker 2: there starving. You go days without food, You're living on

843
00:46:36,644 --> 00:46:40,644
Speaker 2: an island, you get no help there's no production interference.

844
00:46:41,084 --> 00:46:47,244
Speaker 2: There is no time the camera's ever turned off. Yeah,

845
00:46:47,324 --> 00:46:50,884
Speaker 2: so it's like it is the real deal. There's never

846
00:46:51,164 --> 00:46:54,924
Speaker 2: been another show that I've done that's compared to the

847
00:46:54,924 --> 00:46:59,724
Speaker 2: immersive experience that Survivor is. Traders, on the flip side,

848
00:47:00,244 --> 00:47:04,764
Speaker 2: is filmed more like a movie. It's a production. There's

849
00:47:04,844 --> 00:47:08,244
Speaker 2: a lot of stopping and starting. There are still rules

850
00:47:08,564 --> 00:47:11,844
Speaker 2: and they're still in ten and production still you know,

851
00:47:12,084 --> 00:47:17,964
Speaker 2: maintains that. But they're twenty hour days sometimes if you're

852
00:47:18,004 --> 00:47:20,524
Speaker 2: a trader, eighteen to twenty hours. You know, like you

853
00:47:20,604 --> 00:47:23,204
Speaker 2: started eight in the morning and you go till three

854
00:47:23,284 --> 00:47:26,484
Speaker 2: and four in the morning on a lot of days.

855
00:47:27,044 --> 00:47:31,804
Speaker 2: But there's stops and starts. There's makeup, there's lunch, there's

856
00:47:32,084 --> 00:47:38,444
Speaker 2: other things, where with Survivor it's there's never an off button.

857
00:47:38,564 --> 00:47:42,244
Speaker 2: It's on until if you win or get it towards snuffed,

858
00:47:42,564 --> 00:47:42,964
Speaker 2: that's it.

859
00:47:43,164 --> 00:47:48,004
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would, I would. I would definitely die. Yeah,

860
00:47:48,324 --> 00:47:49,764
Speaker 1: I would not survive Survivor.

861
00:47:49,964 --> 00:47:53,244
Speaker 2: I know that about me. I will because of the

862
00:47:53,324 --> 00:47:57,524
Speaker 2: physical part. Yeah. Yeah, you'd be surprised after three days

863
00:47:57,604 --> 00:48:00,404
Speaker 2: you're not even hungry. Most people don't miss a meal.

864
00:48:00,884 --> 00:48:03,844
Speaker 2: If you go three days the hunger pains go away,

865
00:48:04,524 --> 00:48:10,924
Speaker 2: and you're so focused on the strategy. I would always

866
00:48:10,964 --> 00:48:13,364
Speaker 2: like look around to be like there is other people

867
00:48:13,524 --> 00:48:16,644
Speaker 2: here that are doing it, Like you can't complain, Like

868
00:48:16,724 --> 00:48:18,804
Speaker 2: don't cry, Like these people are doing the same thing

869
00:48:18,804 --> 00:48:21,244
Speaker 2: you're doing. That's good.

870
00:48:22,164 --> 00:48:25,364
Speaker 1: So I'm really curious to know kind of given all

871
00:48:25,404 --> 00:48:28,004
Speaker 1: of this, you know, and all of your background and

872
00:48:28,084 --> 00:48:31,044
Speaker 1: kind of how you how you're thinking has evolved. The

873
00:48:31,164 --> 00:48:34,044
Speaker 1: logical question is kind of the what's next. Are you

874
00:48:34,084 --> 00:48:38,364
Speaker 1: going to kind of continue this reality TV evolution, you know,

875
00:48:38,444 --> 00:48:41,564
Speaker 1: survivor fifty or whatever it might be, or are you

876
00:48:41,644 --> 00:48:45,004
Speaker 1: thinking about doing doing something of your own, you know

877
00:48:45,284 --> 00:48:46,724
Speaker 1: what's in your mind.

878
00:48:46,884 --> 00:48:51,164
Speaker 2: I've always been a super spontaneous person and I kind

879
00:48:51,164 --> 00:48:54,084
Speaker 2: of always do what I feel like. I went to

880
00:48:54,124 --> 00:48:57,244
Speaker 2: go work construction after going to college, I tried out

881
00:48:57,284 --> 00:49:00,044
Speaker 2: for a show, and there have been times in between

882
00:49:00,324 --> 00:49:03,644
Speaker 2: like the reality TV stuff where like I still do construction.

883
00:49:03,804 --> 00:49:06,604
Speaker 2: I have houses, I renovate, did a renovation show on

884
00:49:06,684 --> 00:49:11,244
Speaker 2: teap which came up. But like, uh, I try to

885
00:49:11,324 --> 00:49:15,444
Speaker 2: balance my life and built a life where I do

886
00:49:16,684 --> 00:49:20,084
Speaker 2: and live exactly like what I want, and like for that,

887
00:49:20,204 --> 00:49:23,324
Speaker 2: I'm super fortunate you know, like I might go play

888
00:49:23,404 --> 00:49:26,244
Speaker 2: poker one weekend. I might you know, work on a

889
00:49:26,324 --> 00:49:28,484
Speaker 2: house or a project over here. I might do a

890
00:49:28,564 --> 00:49:31,444
Speaker 2: reality show. I might go on vacation with my family.

891
00:49:32,244 --> 00:49:36,244
Speaker 2: I don't know. I've never really planned, you know. I

892
00:49:36,564 --> 00:49:39,884
Speaker 2: just know that I'm not the kind of guy that

893
00:49:39,964 --> 00:49:42,244
Speaker 2: would ever sit in an office and go to a

894
00:49:42,364 --> 00:49:47,644
Speaker 2: nine to five. And there's something about not knowing what

895
00:49:47,764 --> 00:49:52,324
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do that's exciting and like it's wild. They say,

896
00:49:52,364 --> 00:49:56,524
Speaker 2: opposite's a tract. My wife is the complete opposite. He

897
00:49:56,684 --> 00:49:59,524
Speaker 2: works as an admissions director for a school. She goes

898
00:49:59,564 --> 00:50:02,084
Speaker 2: while the kids are at school, and it works. It

899
00:50:02,204 --> 00:50:06,164
Speaker 2: works for us, you know. And I think that balance

900
00:50:06,284 --> 00:50:10,964
Speaker 2: of figuring out and not knowing is like what, like, uh,

901
00:50:11,564 --> 00:50:12,284
Speaker 2: what I enjoy?

902
00:50:13,044 --> 00:50:15,724
Speaker 1: I think that that's a that's a beautiful answer because

903
00:50:15,804 --> 00:50:18,244
Speaker 1: one of the skills that I try to get people

904
00:50:18,604 --> 00:50:22,484
Speaker 1: to embrace is embracing uncertainty, right and embracing the unknown.

905
00:50:22,564 --> 00:50:24,324
Speaker 1: I think that that's something that it's a gift that

906
00:50:24,444 --> 00:50:28,644
Speaker 1: poker gives you that ability. And I think that being

907
00:50:28,964 --> 00:50:32,124
Speaker 1: open and willing to kind of take the opportunities that

908
00:50:32,244 --> 00:50:34,604
Speaker 1: life throws at you without being married to any given

909
00:50:34,644 --> 00:50:37,844
Speaker 1: path is is incredibly important and probably one of the

910
00:50:37,884 --> 00:50:41,404
Speaker 1: reasons why you're so good at reality TV. Yeah, thank

911
00:50:41,444 --> 00:50:45,204
Speaker 1: you so much, Rob for for your time. This was amazing.

912
00:50:45,284 --> 00:50:47,324
Speaker 1: I feel like I have a million other questions that

913
00:50:47,404 --> 00:50:48,124
Speaker 1: I could ask you.

914
00:50:49,324 --> 00:50:53,044
Speaker 2: Well, now that we're friends, we'll figure it out. Okay,

915
00:50:53,164 --> 00:50:53,684
Speaker 2: sounds good.

916
00:50:53,724 --> 00:50:56,724
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me, and good luck

917
00:50:56,924 --> 00:50:59,684
Speaker 1: on whatever comes next, even though you don't know what

918
00:50:59,764 --> 00:51:00,204
Speaker 1: that might be.

919
00:51:01,844 --> 00:51:02,524
Speaker 2: Thanks Maria.

920
00:51:10,364 --> 00:51:12,284
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach

921
00:51:12,364 --> 00:51:15,524
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm.

922
00:51:16,204 --> 00:51:19,164
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber,

923
00:51:19,284 --> 00:51:22,564
Speaker 1: we have some bonus content for you today. It's more

924
00:51:22,604 --> 00:51:25,764
Speaker 1: from our interview with Boston Rob that's coming up right

925
00:51:25,804 --> 00:51:28,804
Speaker 1: after the credits. And if you are not subscribing yet,

926
00:51:28,844 --> 00:51:31,444
Speaker 1: I mean, what's up with that? Please consider signing up

927
00:51:31,844 --> 00:51:33,724
Speaker 1: for six to ninety nine a month. You get access

928
00:51:33,844 --> 00:51:36,844
Speaker 1: to all that premium content and add free listening across

929
00:51:36,924 --> 00:51:41,084
Speaker 1: Pushkin's entire network of shows. Risky Business is hosted by

930
00:51:41,164 --> 00:51:45,004
Speaker 1: me Maria Kanikova and by my fabulous co host, Nate Silver.

931
00:51:45,604 --> 00:51:49,124
Speaker 1: The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia.

932
00:51:49,924 --> 00:51:53,564
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer

933
00:51:53,684 --> 00:51:56,804
Speaker 1: is Sonia Gerwick. Sally Helm is our editor, and our

934
00:51:56,844 --> 00:52:01,444
Speaker 1: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. If

935
00:52:01,484 --> 00:52:03,684
Speaker 1: you like the show, please rate and review us so

936
00:52:03,844 --> 00:52:06,684
Speaker 1: other people can find us too, Thanks for tuning.

937
00:52:06,724 --> 00:52:12,004
Speaker 2: In a typical posting, Will foll