1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you From how Stuff 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I have selfish reason 4 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: for wanting to do this episode on tattoos because I 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about it. You know, a a lot 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: of our listeners have asked us to talk about tattoos, 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: which we had years ago, but like it has been 8 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: so long the tattoo landscape, we're so diff changed. Yes. Uh. 9 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: And also it is taking all of my willpower to 10 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: not pronounce it to two twos. I know, tattoo that's 11 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: not to to to just is so much more fun 12 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: to say, um, but to my selfishness. So I have 13 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: two tattoos two to two. See, it just sounds so 14 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: much better. Anyway, I'm off the T two train. So 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: I have two tattoos, one on my wrist and one 16 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: on my rib cage. And I really want a new tattoo. 17 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: I've been wanting a new tattoo for a while and 18 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: it's time. Do you want big, small, colorful black and white? 19 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: I just want black and white or guess just black? 20 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: And my skin is pretty pasty, so that's almost white. Um, 21 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: both of my tattoos are only only black, and I 22 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: kind of like sticking with that motif. Um, And I 23 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: have an anchor on my wrist and a battleship on 24 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: you know, my ribs. So and she means the game battleship. 25 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: She totally totally doesn't mean an actual battle. Yeah, it's 26 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: actually a scene from the movie Battleship. Or it's a 27 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: scene from the eighties commer with the two little boys 28 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: playing battleship. It's a huge back piece. Actually, it's very intricate. Um. 29 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: And I've got this accidental nautical theme going on, and 30 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily need to stick with that, although I'm 31 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm fine with it. You should get get Sylvia Earle 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: in her like scuba suit. She's like under the battleship. 33 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: She's floring under the battleship. Yeah. Well, I gotta tell you, 34 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: I really have been, um thinking about getting a bird 35 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: of some sort, put a bird on it. I want 36 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: to put a bird on it. I want to put 37 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: a bird on my body. Is that is that going 38 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: to symbolize anything? I want a bird. And I'm saying 39 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: all of this in such great detail because listeners, I 40 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: am looking for suggestions This is a thirsty explanation. You 41 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: know you're gonna get something. I hope so. But I'd 42 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: like it to be a bird that somehow symbolic of 43 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: endurance going, you know, survival, like vulture. Yes, I want 44 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: a vulture devouring carrion flesh. I literally saw a vulture 45 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: in our urban setting the other day on the sidewalk 46 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: because it was tattooed on. Soon was going to work, 47 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: I think, And it's lunch in its mouth, um holding 48 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: a BlackBerry. I don't know. Well, are you thinking more? 49 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: Because like you've got powerful birds like the golden eagle. God, no, 50 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: not an eagle things like that. No, not the flag 51 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: behind it, you know what, You're right, That'll be my 52 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: belly piece, my back piece and my belly piece so 53 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: that then I can learn how to like make my 54 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: stomach do the wave so that the American flag can 55 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: wave and the eagle can fly. Yeah, Golden eagles are 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: way bigger than an American bald eagle. Though. Now I 57 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: want a cool bird. I really want a cool bird. 58 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: And any ornithologists, I think you're offending golden golden eagle 59 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: lovers out there, though, I think that you are defending 60 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: golden eagles. I know why am I said? If I 61 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: have no bird in this fight, I like that. You're welcome. 62 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: We're killing two birds with one stone, which I don't 63 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: know that it actually fits. But ornithologists, bird enthusiasts, tattoo artists, 64 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: and collectors, if you have any good bird ideas, please 65 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: send them to mom stuff at how stuff or dot 66 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: com or tweet us at mom stuff podcast because I 67 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: want to find the perfect bird. I would recommend an 68 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: owl personally, but I don't know. I don't know how 69 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: how much endurance they have at like sports and stuff, 70 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: only if it's the owl from the old school of 71 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: TUPSI pop commercials um symbolizing perseverance. Yes, because how many 72 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: licks does it take? Only three? And so it's kind 73 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: of the opposite civilizes my impatience. Yeah, So with that 74 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: out of the way, let's talk about tattoos that actually 75 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: exist and have existed for quite some time. Yes, let's 76 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: not keep talking about white girls like me wine tattoos. Well, 77 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: let me preface our history where we will be talking 78 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: about indigenous women and populations in North America by saying 79 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: something about white people, and that is missionaries really mucked 80 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: some stuff up. I know, this is very reminiscent of 81 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: our surfing episode because a similar thing happened when white 82 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: missionaries entered what is now Hawaii and we're like, um, 83 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,559 Speaker 1: all this naked surfing that you're doing, it's not okay. Yeah. 84 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: Basically taking something, uh in that case surfing and in 85 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: this case tattooing. U taking something that's beautiful and meaningful 86 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: and stay acred and holds a lot of significance, spiritual significance, 87 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: life marking significance. Uh, and just across the board dismissing 88 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: it as a heathen activity, something that's damaging to the 89 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: body that God gave you. Yeah. And the thing is, 90 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: I feel like the stereotype of women in tattoos in 91 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: the United States is of you know, the regrettable dolphin 92 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: tramp stamp, when in fact, Native Americans and indigenous people 93 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, in islands all around the Pacific have this 94 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: rich symbolic tattoo history, like of dolphins, not well, not 95 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: necessarily of dolphins. I'm sorry, I'm the word. But if 96 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: we are speaking just about the US, obviously Native Americans 97 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: were the original tattooists, and we know that from written 98 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: records ranging from sixteenth century European explorers to eighteenth century 99 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: missionaries and traders, all of whom mentioned the body decorations 100 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: of indigenous people they would encounter. And the body decoration 101 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: might not necessarily be tattooing, but um, it often included tattooing. 102 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: And in this episode, we're not just talking about the 103 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 1: tattoos women get and people's views of those tattoos, because 104 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: trust me, people have opinions on women's tattoos, but we're 105 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: also gonna be talking to you about the women who 106 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: are the artists. And uh, we were looking at some 107 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: information about indigenous women in micro Polynesia and Fiji, for instance, 108 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: who served as their communities tattooists, and their own designs 109 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: that they had were considered beautiful. It wasn't an issue 110 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 1: of like what we have today still, which is issues 111 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: of like morality and and uh being sexually deviant somehow. 112 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: If you're a woman with a tattoo, to other cultures, 113 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: it's historically been viewed as beautiful. Yeah, beautiful, a symbol 114 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: of status. They were often used to demarcate milestones, whether 115 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: that is hitting puberty or getting married, having a child. Um. 116 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: And we were reading about this in Drawing with great 117 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: needles ancient tattoo traditions of North America, and they mentioned 118 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: how references of indigenous tattoos in the US go back 119 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: farther than the existence of the word tattoo in English. 120 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: So these anthropologists have had to go through all these 121 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: records and kind of figure out what is and is 122 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: not actually a tattoo because words like pounce, prick, stamp, embroider, 123 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: which is my favorite, Um, we're used by you know, 124 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: people like explorers to try to describe these traditions and 125 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: the body decorations that they saw. And women weren't tattooed 126 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: as routinely as men were, but some definitely had some 127 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: amazing and significant, socially significant tattoos. For instance, if you 128 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: look at the Midwestern o sage tribe, which is also 129 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: pronounced was zazi Uh, their women were selected to receive 130 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: enormous tattoos that allowed them to quote trap the life 131 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: force and manifest it on earth in the form of 132 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: a long life and a lot of grand babies. Yeah, 133 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: so apparently these osagi tattoos would kind of wrap all 134 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: around these select women's bodies kind of like I I 135 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: just imagine, um, I don't know, everything like coming into 136 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: like your like all these lines meeting at your belly 137 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: button and you have like a ray of light that 138 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: would then shoot out of it, and that's your life force. 139 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: And then you make and then you make babies and 140 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: live until you're like yeah, or you live forever through 141 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: your grand babies. Oh yeah, I guess that makes more something. 142 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: He lived forever thanks to your belly button light. Yeah, 143 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: oh for sure. And people can always find you like 144 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: a troll doll, which is nice. Um. And for another example, 145 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: the tattoos of digiha women who lived around the Ohio River, 146 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: the Mississippi River Valley, and the Great Plains were intended 147 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: to snare souls from the spirit world and bring them 148 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: into our world. Huh. I mean my bird tattoo is 149 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: not gonna be able to do anything close to that. 150 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on if you get a golden 151 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: eagle or not that eagle. Eagle or bust. Yeah, maybe 152 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: I'll just tattoo that on me eagle or bust. I mean, 153 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: that's a that's a great tramp stamp if I've ever 154 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: heard one. People won't get it, and I won't either, 155 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: but I will pretend I do. Um. In eighteen fifty one, 156 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: we get a pretty famous figure in tattoo history, and 157 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: that's all of Oatman. So her family on the frontier 158 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: is killed and she ends up being adopted and raised 159 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: by Mohave Native Americans who give her this traditional tribal 160 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: tattoo as a symbol of acceptance into the tribe. And 161 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,239 Speaker 1: it's these lines on her chin. And if you watch 162 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: the show Helen Wheels, there's a character based on all 163 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: of Oatman. She's got the tattoos on her chin. She's 164 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: also a prostitute. I don't think all of Oatman was 165 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: a prostitute. But Helen Wheels not a great show. I 166 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: can't stop watching it. Um. But anyway, apparently Oatman was 167 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: the first white American woman to have a tattoo, and people, uh, 168 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: just have always been obsessed with her for good reason. 169 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not every day that you see, especially 170 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: from eighteen fifty one, a white woman with a face tattoo, right, 171 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: I mean the image of this woman in Victorian clothing 172 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: and dress and her hair all done up just so, 173 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: and then with these what like five or six straight 174 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: lines that come out from her bottom lip all the 175 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: way down across her chin to her neck. Um. And 176 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about all of Oatman 177 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: stuff he missed in history class, has an episode all 178 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: about her. But she became a huge sensation in part 179 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: because of you know, the story of her kidnapping and ransom, 180 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: but mostly due to that tattoo. And like you said, 181 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: many Native American tattooing traditions were non existent by the 182 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: twentieth centuries because while all of Oatman was, you know, 183 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: super famous among white people, is because they considered her 184 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: kind of a freak for having this tattoo, and they 185 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: certainly associated tattooing with savagery. Yes, and so tattooing became 186 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: a tattoo, a tattoo taboo. And so what I love 187 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: seeing and reading about is this recent rise in Indigenous 188 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: women bringing back tattooed traditions in both the United States 189 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: and Canada. Yeah. So there was an NPR story not 190 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: long ago covering a small but growing group of Inuit 191 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: women in Alaska who are getting the traditional face tattoos 192 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: um so Inuit to two artists, Maya Cia Look Jacobson 193 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: is one of the few people who knows the traditional 194 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: tattooing technique um, one of which she learned as a kid, 195 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: which is skin sewing. Um. I don't know that that's 196 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: the technical term for it, um, But this was a 197 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: tattoo method that I had never heard of before, where 198 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: you essentially take um a piece of died thread and 199 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: stitch it into your skin. And they talked to one 200 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: woman who was getting tattooed named Holly Minnet Cook Nord Lamb, 201 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: and she definitely felt this connection with her past. Her 202 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: great grandmother had a face tattoo similar to the one 203 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: that she was receiving on her chin, right yeah, um, 204 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: and each line again represented a milestone in life, graduation, children, marriage, whatever. 205 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: So these artists are working on bringing back that social, cultural, religious, 206 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: and just really life significance to this body artwork and 207 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: even reviving the methods of tattooing has been a challenge 208 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: because Um, as Jacobson told and pr, I mean, so 209 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: many of these records have been lost and she's had 210 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: to piece together these techniques by um relying on what 211 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: she was taught by her you know, Intuit family growing up. 212 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: But then she was saying that I forget what year 213 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: it was, but there were this group of Inuit mummies, 214 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: women who had been mummified that were discovered and she 215 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: did all the research on the remains of their bodies 216 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: to examine their tattoos and the ways that and she 217 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, worked backward to figure out just 218 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: how they had gotten that that body modification done. And 219 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if these two groups of women know 220 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: about each other, but the CBC in Canada highlighted how 221 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: there's a similar Inuit tattoo revival happening many many miles 222 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: away from Alaska, um in the Canadian territory, and none 223 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: of it and it's also being led and started by women. Yeah. 224 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: So traditionally women in this culture would have been selected 225 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: to be tattooed at puberty. Um. I mean, but can 226 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: you imagine today the judgment that so many strangers would 227 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: have looking at children, like, oh, what are you doing 228 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: to your child? You're defiling their skin. But so many 229 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: people are working to reclaim that because it doesn't mean 230 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: what traditionally, white missionary type folks have imbued it with. Yeah, 231 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: I mean, getting tattooed at puberty was simply a way 232 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: to mark their transition into womanhood. Um. And at this 233 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: traditional Inuit tattoo project that the CBC reported on, twenty 234 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: local women showed up to not only learn the techniques 235 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: but also get tattooed themselves. Um. Some of them getting 236 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: the traditional tattoos on parts of their bodies like their 237 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: hands and arms, and fewer um, but some still getting 238 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: the face tattoo. I mean, that's that's kind of the 239 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: big news here that people are so surprised by that 240 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: women especially would willfully elect to get their faces tattooed. Yeah. Well, 241 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, faces aren't the only things that freak people 242 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: out when it comes to women getting tattoos. It's really like, 243 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, historically women getting tattoos at all. Well, and 244 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: to me, it's pretty clear that since this is a 245 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: form of body modification that was started behind people of 246 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: color who are also indigenous, um, is one of the 247 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: reasons why it has taken so long for there to 248 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: be this main streaming and an acceptance of you know, anybody, 249 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: but particularly a female body, and especially a white female body, UM, 250 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: to be considered you know, not deviant if it is tattooed, 251 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: because I mean, if we just look at the history 252 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: of tattoos in the United States, we see that they 253 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: were there and happening before white folks even got there, 254 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: as soon as white folks got there and saw this 255 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: body decoration. It was considered a sign of how, you know, 256 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: Native Americans were heathenistic and savage, and so of course 257 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: it was something that should be outlawed, and so it's 258 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: driven underground. And that connection has made all the more 259 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: clear with Nora Hildebrand, who is the first circus side 260 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: show tattoo lady who was essentially trying to ride all 261 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 1: of Oatman's coat tails. Yeah, and she claimed that she 262 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: was also tattooed by Native Americans. Was that a tall tale? Yeah, 263 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: it was a tall tale. Her husband tattooed her, Okay, yeah, yeah, 264 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: she That was in the late eighteen eighties. And I 265 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: love the idea of like, I'm going to ride a 266 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: fellow circus freaks coat tails by also tattooing my face. 267 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: Gotta make some money, honey. And something that I wasn't 268 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: aware of was that also going on in the late 269 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: nineteenth century was a trend among London and New York 270 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: socialites to get very small, discreet, decorative tattoos, and that 271 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: that was okay because it was hidden, it was small, 272 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: and you were rich, right, so you were kind of 273 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: above reproach. But women who had a whole lot of 274 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: ink done were considered a violation of nature. So but 275 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: do you know, did you read anything about what those 276 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: tiny socialite tattoos were. No, I don't know too much 277 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: about it. But listen as you want to learn more. 278 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: Can consult Bodies of Subversion by Margot Mifflin, who was 279 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,959 Speaker 1: talking about that to The Atlantic magazine. I wonder if 280 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: they got like little opera glasses or like a single 281 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: white glove or something. I'm imagining that them getting like 282 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: a little tube of lipstick, maybe a half smoked cigarette. So, 283 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: speaking of tattooed women and tattooed husbands and women getting 284 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: into tattooing through their husband's interest in it, we've also 285 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: got to talk about Mod Wagner. She was America's first 286 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: known female tattoo is. She was also like these earlier 287 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: women we mentioned, a circus attraction, but she met her 288 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: beloved husband there and they had that to to connection. 289 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: And I want to say that Gus Wagner, her future husband, 290 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: like took a shine to her and he asked her 291 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: out a few times and she finally relented when he 292 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: was like, look, I will teach you how to give tattoos. 293 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: If you'll go on the stay with me, and Maud 294 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: was like, okay, guess, let's do it. And they fell 295 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: in love and they had a baby, and that baby 296 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: grew up to be another tattooist. But she never got 297 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: tattooed herself. Well, I never met Lovetta Wagner Lavetta, yeah, 298 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: which I believe that she was named Lovetta Um to 299 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: memorialize the love between Maud and Gus. Can you feel 300 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: the love tonight? I can? I definitely can well, Um. 301 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why Lovetta Wagner, who did 302 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: grow up to become, you know, a well known tattooist 303 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: in her own right. One reason she never got a 304 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: tattoo maybe had a little bit to do with like, listen, 305 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: mom's covered in tattoos. I'm not into that. But also 306 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: I've read that at after Gusts died Um, since Maud 307 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: had not allowed Gus to tattoo Lovetta. For understandable reasons, 308 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: Lovetta decided that if her dad had never been able 309 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: to tattoo or, she wasn't gonna let anyone else give 310 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: her a tattoo, not even Maud, not even Maud. What 311 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: a loving family. Although how cool it been for maud 312 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: to have given lovetta like one of those hearts like 313 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 1: mother tattoos. Yeah, from your math, from your man, from um. 314 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: So if we jumped forward a little bit toe, we 315 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: meet Mildred Hall. She cited as the only female tattooist 316 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: in New York at the time, and she taught herself. Yeah, 317 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the thing that you read about 318 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: Mildred Hall, also known as the Queen of the Bowery 319 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: every time is that she um didn't learn from a 320 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: boyfriend or husband. And it's notable, yeah that she like 321 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: struck out on her own um and sought out tattooing 322 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: without the inspiration of any dude. But there's like a 323 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: certain tone to it sometimes, and some of the sources 324 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: we were reading that reminded me of like the fake 325 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: geet girl thing, where it's like, yeah, she you know, 326 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: she's not like all those other girls who just you know, 327 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: did it because dudes were doing it. She wasn't like 328 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: a fake tattoo girl. She was the real deal. I mean, 329 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: she was the real deal. I just think that it's 330 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: it says something that a lot of these women are 331 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: defined by their relationship or lack of relationship. Two men. Yeah, 332 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess in our timeline, in the story 333 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: we're telling, it's really not as important how they got 334 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: into it as the fact that they did get into 335 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: it and that they were successful. I mean, it is 336 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: worth noting that some of them were introduced to tattooing 337 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 1: by men, but the women were talking about we're all 338 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 1: successful in their own right. Yeah, I mean, And of 339 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: course it's also a very masculine subculture at this point. 340 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: It's so far away from its original roots all off surfing, 341 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: where it was far more of an egalitarian affair. Yeah, 342 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: and something beautiful and sacred for women to have as well. Um, 343 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: And I do love the side note that Whole was 344 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: a former chorus girl who tattooed debutants and socialite I know, 345 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: I bet I'd like to learn more about this little 346 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: side hustle that she had, because I would suspect that 347 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: those debutantes were maybe getting those those small, discreet tattoos, 348 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: Like we were thinking about what the socialites before that, 349 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: because what are you gonna do if it shows through 350 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: your wed and dress? Oh well, we gotta get to 351 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: that and a little bit um. Around the same time 352 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: as Mildred Hole's career was peaking. Um, we have circus 353 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: sideshow act Betty Broadbend, who was one of the best 354 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: known tattooed ladies of the day, like circus side show 355 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: ladies of the day, but she also caused a stir 356 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: when she entered a beauty contest knowing that she wouldn't 357 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: win spoiler alert, but she basically did it just to 358 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: highlight how tattoos are completely and totally at odds with 359 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: conventional white beauty norms. So basically it sounds like Betty 360 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: Broadbent is a badass. I mean, all these women are 361 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: such bad well yeah, no, without a doubt, but like, 362 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: here's a woman who's like almost spitefully entering a contest 363 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: to be like, what, I'm a woman, I'm tattooed. These 364 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm still amazing and beautiful. Oh, 365 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: totally deal with it, society. I know, Betty Broadbent definitely 366 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: sounds like a lady you would not want to mess with. 367 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: And then as if, uh, tattooing culture of that day 368 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: wasn't masculine focused enough, around World War Two, it starts 369 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: to be more associated with the rise of biker culture. 370 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: So now it's not just like men versus women, masculine 371 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: versus feminine. It's also got the subtext of like almost 372 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: kind of a dangerous, kind of scary masculinity that wasn't 373 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 1: necessarily so friendly to women or people of color. Well, 374 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: and also at this time, tattooing in a lot of 375 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: places was downright illegal, a situation which it was not helped. 376 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty one went a hepatitis c outbreak shut 377 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: down all tattooing in New York. And by the way, 378 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: tattooing was not officially legalized in New York until oh well, 379 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: tattooing in South Carolina wasn't legalized until maybe not even 380 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: ten years ago, when my friends because I went to 381 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: the University of South Carolina my freshman year of college, 382 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: and all my friends who wanted tattoos had to drive 383 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: across the border to Charlotte, North Carolina if they wanted 384 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: to get tattoos, and they were inevitably always terrible. It 385 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: was some like Chinese character that meant nothing to them. Uh, 386 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: that's not the fault of the tattoo artists, however, that's 387 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: just bad judgment from my drunk friends at college. Do 388 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: you have any idea why South Carolina held out so long. 389 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: Is it's just sort of like Bible belt politics. I 390 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 1: think it has a lot to do I don't know 391 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: any like specifics, but I think it has a lot 392 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: to do with the hyper both conservative and religious culture 393 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: that is in South Carolina. Because you have to keep 394 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: in mind that when you and I were in college, Kristen, 395 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: there was a movement among Evangelical Christians in South Carolina 396 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: to again succeed from the Union. Uh. And so I 397 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: think not only was it concerns over health and safety. 398 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted a hepsi outbreak, happatitis outbreak, nobody wanted to 399 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: spread at any other types of diseases. But I think 400 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: that there was definitely a moralistic component as well well. 401 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: And I remember very clearly growing up and going to 402 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: church with my family and hearing, you know, the passage 403 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: in Leviticus and the Old Testament, the Bible being cited 404 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: as you know, thou shout not um, you know, modify 405 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: your body with tattoos is not a direct quote. Well, sure, exactly. 406 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: I had a friend of mine, she and I went 407 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: in like seventh grade to a big music festival here 408 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and you could get henna tattoos, and I 409 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: didn't think anything of it. I was really excited. She 410 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: was really excited. We got, you know, stupid henna tattoos 411 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: all over ourselves, and but she got hers where she 412 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: could hide it. And it was because her mother. She's 413 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: in a very religious family, and her mother, even if 414 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: it was fake, did not want to see anything on 415 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: her body, you know, especially not a real tattoo, a 416 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: permanent tattoo, but even something like Hannah, even if you're 417 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 1: like in a hurry and you write someone's phone number 418 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: on the back of your hand, like, none of that 419 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: was acceptable. Well, and I have a feeling to the 420 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: Hanna tattoos would also not be acceptable in extremely conservative 421 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: Christian home because they might in some way associate it 422 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: with Hinduism. A lot of layers we can we can 423 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: get into into my Christian upbringing off off Mike. Um. 424 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: But if we get back, if we go back to 425 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: hepatitis C in the sixties, Um, I mean, all of 426 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: that really pushes this subculture even more underground, so that 427 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: I mean the likeliest people that you would see with 428 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: tattoos would be inmates, motorcyclists, and gang members, whether they're 429 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: in a motorcycle gang or not. And I guess also 430 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: military members sailors coming back with anchors on their big 431 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: anchors on the four tiny anchors on their wrists. I'm sorry, 432 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of Popeye never mind. Well, well, and 433 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: and that is one big reason, you know, sailors um 434 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: and military men in the South Pacific because of World 435 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: War Two. I mean that definitely, um is one of 436 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: the reasons. That's definitely one of the ways that tattooing, 437 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, made its way back to the mainland. Yes, 438 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: it was shipped here by sailors. Sailorshipped it here, and 439 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: we do in the late sixties and seventies, we do 440 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: see a tattoo renaissance that moves tattoos outside of you know, 441 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: those darker, more dangerous subcultures of illegal tattooing and bikers 442 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: and circuses. And also, apologies to bikers out there, I 443 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: have nothing against you, really, I'm just reporting on attitudes. 444 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're all lovely, um. But we also get 445 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: just like the subcultures of the sixties and seventies that 446 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: are sort of taking over pop culture. Yeah, counterculture maybe, um. So, 447 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: speaking to The New York Times in two thousand. One 448 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: Lyle Tuttle, who is a legendary tattooist in San Francisco 449 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: who's been credited with popularizing modern tattooing, told the paper, 450 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: I have to direct quote this because it's it just 451 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: shouldn't be paraphrased. So Tuttle said, quote, I think the 452 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: fuel that fired my rockets was women's liberation. I think 453 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: the popularity stems from the late sixties and early seventies 454 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,959 Speaker 1: when women's liberation kicked in, because all of a sudden, 455 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: half the human race opened up. Yeah, so he's like, 456 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: all these feminists suddenly came in wanting tattoos, hopefully of 457 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: the venus. I was just gonna say, everybody's coming in 458 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: getting the venus symbol with the fist in the middle. Um. 459 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: And by the time we hit the nineties, tattoos are 460 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: definitely becoming more mainstream, but they're still associated with more 461 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: subversive attitudes. And Margot Mifflin, who wrote Bodies of Subversion, 462 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: if I can say all of that correctly, uh said 463 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: that she saw that tattooing was an amazing barometer of 464 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: women's dreams and fears and passions at that time. She 465 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: said it was a period when body issues were at 466 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: a peak of controversy at the end of the culture wars. 467 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean in Miffilo was really I mean, she was 468 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: absolutely correct, and she was tapping straight into what would 469 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: become even more of a zeitgeist. Yeah. I mean in 470 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: the nineties, could you say that even though tattoos are 471 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: becoming more mainstream, but they're still subversive. This was another 472 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: way for another round of feminists to set themselves apart. Absolutely. 473 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: I mean it's still you know, a conversation that comes 474 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: up around UM agency and feminism and empowerment today UM. 475 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: And in fact, in a Harris poll found that for 476 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: the very first time, they are more American women than 477 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: men who have tattoos, So tw of American women of 478 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: American men who were pulled UM have a tattoo. At 479 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: the same time, research also finds that women are likely 480 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: to seek tattoo removal and or experience tattoo regret. But 481 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that some of that might have 482 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: to do with what we're going to talk about later 483 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: in the episode, which is how women's bodies even still 484 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 1: today are judge if they have visible tattoos. Yeah, And 485 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: I think it's the lingering gender norms and implications that 486 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: come along with tattoos that perhaps I'm not This is 487 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: just a theory that perhaps that maybe as women get 488 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: older and their lives change, maybe they're having children, maybe 489 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: they do face more body shaming from other people. Yeah, 490 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: I mean, because there's at every stage of um, what 491 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: society expects to be a woman's life, having a tattoo 492 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: is aversive. Think about a mother with a tattoo. I 493 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: mean I always remember, you know, um, when I was younger, 494 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: anytime tattoos would come up, it would be the thing 495 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: of like, well, you know, if you have kids, would 496 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: you want your kids to see a tattoo? Or when 497 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: you're a grandmother, would you want that wrinkly old tattoo 498 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: on you? What will the kids think? Would you want that? 499 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: When you're getting married, they'll probably just think it's normal 500 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: since you're their mom, right, Yeah, logical thing would be 501 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: like cool mom, Yeah, my mom is pretty cool. Or 502 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: they'll they'll rebel and be like tattoos or subversive. I 503 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: don't know what a kid says. Well, and it's just 504 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: so I mean, it's just considered so unfeminine or at 505 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: least one like right up until I mean seriously, like 506 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, like ten years ago maybe. Yeah. Well, 507 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: I mean my friend Miranda has a giant piece on 508 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: one of her arms that's a whole bunch of beautiful flowers. 509 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: It's really colorful. It's gorgeous and hearkening back to tattooings 510 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: roots in this country of signifying major life moments and relationships, 511 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,959 Speaker 1: each flower is the favorite flower of an important woman 512 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: in her life, her grandmother's, her mom, her best friends. Uh, 513 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: and I love that. But when she was getting this 514 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: piece done, her mother did say, like, what are you 515 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: gonna do when you're old? And Miranda was like, well, 516 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to be an old lady with tattoos, is 517 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: what's going to happen? I guess yeah, deal with us. Yeah. Well, 518 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:33,919 Speaker 1: I also have to shout out one of mine and 519 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: and the Internet's favorite tattoos of late, which happened when 520 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: Rachel Fink got a notorious RBG Ruth Bader Ginsburg tattoo 521 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: on her arm and it went viral. I mean, CNN 522 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: covered it. That's us. And if CNN covers it, then 523 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: you know it's news. That's right. This episode is brought 524 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: to you by see then But if Rachel Fink had 525 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: been getting a notorious RBG tattoo leading up to the 526 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, although that wouldn't when did RBG get on 527 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court during the Clinton mines later, Yeah, so 528 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: that wouldn't have made any sense. But still, I mean 529 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: she was practicing law. I mean maybe she was an 530 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: early fan. She's a Badassah, yeah, she didn't wait to 531 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: be a badass until the nineties. So let's go back 532 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: to so Rachel Fink, who is you know, probably not 533 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: born yet at this time, she is getting a tattoo 534 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: in utero of the law student Ruth Bader Ginsburg correct. 535 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: She that Fetus would have been advised by tattoo artists 536 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: against getting such a large piece of work done because 537 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: genuinely or not, they were concerned about the stigma that 538 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: women with a lot of art would face. Yeah. I 539 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: mean it's kind of in the same way of you know, 540 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: going in there drunk and being like, I want a 541 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: dolphin on my back. I want a Lisa Frank dolphin. Yes, 542 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: and the tattoo artists would probably say, if he she 543 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: is responsible, would probably say, you are drunk. I don't 544 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: know that that's a great idea. Also, you're bleeding a 545 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: lot because you've been drinking and your blood is thinner. Yeah, 546 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons. I'm not going to do 547 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: that tattoo, um, but you might not like what people 548 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: think about it. Um. And this is something that Beverly 549 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: Yen Thompson explores in her book Covered in Ink Tattoos, 550 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 1: Women in the Politics of the Body, and she interviews 551 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: a lot of women who were part of the subculture 552 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: when it was you know, still very much underground. Um. 553 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: But even today, heavily tattooed women or even just women 554 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: with visible like a visible tattoo, still catch all sorts 555 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: of unwanted comments, questions, commons and touching as a result 556 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: of their ink. And this was something that I asked 557 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you fans about on Facebook whether 558 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: this was something they ever experienced, and just was the 559 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: overwhelming answer, because it's almost as if people think that 560 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: the personal expression and arch that a tattoo is like 561 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: as soon as that is on a woman's body and 562 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: it's visible and she's in public, she has rendered just 563 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: open and welcome to public for public consumption, like we 564 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: somehow got it for for them. In the same way 565 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: that people will pet baby bumps. I was literally just 566 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: gonna say that. It's like, whenever something about your physical 567 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: being is different than the quote unquote norm go with 568 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: me with the quote unquote part uh, people feel like 569 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: it's somehow not a part of you and they can 570 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: just touch it. Yeah, And it really like my pulse 571 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: is elevated now because I'm just picturing like if I 572 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: had a visible tattoo and someone just came and touched it, 573 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: how quickly I would wrote punch them, yeah, and saying 574 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: things like why would you get those tattoos? I just 575 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: like I can hear that in my mother's voice because 576 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: she would absolutely say that in the same way that 577 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: somewhat like a stranger um will stop a pregnant woman 578 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: at a sushi bar and you're like, but but but 579 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: what about baby? Well? Yeah, I mean. And and one 580 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: thing that Thompson talks about is that despite how mainstream 581 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: and very middle class tattoos have become, um you know, 582 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: it's like a hipster staple to have a tattoo, right, 583 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: they are still associated with a degree of criminality, especially 584 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: for men, but sexual deviance for women. And that's part 585 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: of the whole Like touching in you you know, by 586 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: virtue of having a tattoo, you're required to answer my 587 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: questions about it, which is also very violating. Well, and 588 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: just this idea that women who have a lot of tattoos, 589 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: similar to women who have a lot of visible piercings, 590 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: that they're somehow kinkier, are more down for visual sex um, 591 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: are just gonna be interested in any male who walks 592 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: up to them. You know, it's just just wanting to 593 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: go home with you. We don't even have to go home, 594 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: just do right here. Who cares? I've got a tattoo, 595 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,959 Speaker 1: I'm crazy? Do it? I mean get ice cream? Yes, 596 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: that's what some people call it. And God help you 597 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: though if you are not only a woman with a 598 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: visible tattoo, but that it's something like skulls or zombies 599 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: or blood or whatever, because that's like super outside the 600 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: gender noise. What do you mean you don't have roses 601 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: and Lisa Frank dolphins. Well, and this is something that 602 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: Thompson writes about in Covered in Ink, the whole concept 603 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: of quote unquote ugly tattoos and how you know, especially 604 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: tattoo collectors who have them, Like if those tattoo collectors 605 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: also happen to be women, just like minds are blown, 606 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: because it just it doesn't compute in the same way 607 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: as Uh, there's a stereotype that even female tattoo artists 608 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: can't create those harsher, more grizzly images because well, we 609 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 1: would want to do is something floral and soft, and well, 610 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: the estrogen it prevents your hand from forming those shapes. True, 611 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: if if you weren't aware, this podcast is all about 612 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: truthful education. Um, and you know we posted to our 613 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: social media not too long ago, well I guess it 614 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: was a while ago. Was But there was a Social 615 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: Science Journal study that found that the women participants who 616 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: had four or more tattoos actually reported higher self esteem. 617 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: So everybody's like, yay, see, tattoos are great and it's 618 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: clearly correlated with a better sense of self. But they 619 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 1: also found that women with tattoos in their study had 620 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: a four times higher level of reported attempted suicide. So 621 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: that light caused a lot of chit chatter on the internet. 622 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Yeah, the the virality of this study 623 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: just made my eyes roll so far back in my 624 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: head because, uh, I mean, we're confusing correlation and causation, 625 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: which is something that these study authors emphasized that they 626 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: don't know the exact relationship between the two, so you 627 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: would see headlines um ranging from women with tattoos have 628 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: higher self esteem to women with tattoos want to kill 629 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: themselves and just like this mangling of information that all 630 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 1: still seemed like just like salivating over this idea that 631 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: there's just something wrong with women. You have a lot 632 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: of tattoos, like you've got to be broken and someone women, 633 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, you are reclaiming your body because something happened 634 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: to your body and we don't really want to talk 635 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: about it, but we're just going to assume a lot 636 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: of things judging by all the tattoos, because why else 637 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: would you want to cover up your beautiful feminine form 638 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 1: that God gave you? Thanks missionaries. Well, and I wish 639 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: that we could just magically talked to Margaret Show about this, 640 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: have her pop into the studio, because she's so famously 641 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: has tons of tons and tons of tattoos all over 642 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: her body, done by all sorts of famous tattoo artists. 643 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 1: She was definitely a collector and she has talked about 644 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: how tattoos have been a form of body reclamation for her, 645 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 1: and it's something that I've heard of from other women. 646 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: There is a sense of agency that you get when 647 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: you are willfully like paying someone money to uh pokeia 648 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: real hard on your rib cage for two hours. But 649 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: I but I you know, I love I splipped that 650 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: to myself. Um uh, but there is for some people. 651 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: I've experienced this a very real sense of agency in 652 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: getting a tattoo, a meaningful tattoo. Um. Yeah. And that's 653 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: something that we talked a lot about in our episode 654 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: on mystectomy tattoos. Men who have been through such physical 655 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: trauma and emotional trauma, um covering scars or just in 656 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: some way reclaiming their bodies through tattoos instead of getting 657 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: reconstructive surgery. Yeah. I mean, I guess the thing is, 658 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: I just, um, I get so tired of this misperception 659 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 1: that you know, things in our past that happened to us, 660 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: whether it's just general hard times or outright like abuse 661 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: or assault, that that renders you just damaged goods, and 662 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: that you know, tattoos must be must be evidence of 663 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: something wrong, unless it is like a pleasant bouquet of 664 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: flowers or a Chinese symbol that you got on spring 665 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: break and you don't know what it means. So Caroline, 666 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,399 Speaker 1: now is it time for us to hear from listeners. Yes, 667 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure y'all have some great, slash tragic and upsetting stories. Yeah. 668 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really curious to hear what the what 669 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,359 Speaker 1: the state of women and tattoos is in terms of 670 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: how people react to your tattoos, what your tattoos mean 671 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,879 Speaker 1: to you, um, how you react to people reacting. Yeah, 672 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: and I'm interested to in hearing from tattoo artists out 673 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: there as well about trends and tattoos for instance, because 674 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: literally there are entire Pinterest boards and accounts dedicated to 675 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna call trendy tattoos, like those thinner lines, 676 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: like maybe they're they they actually harken back to a 677 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: lot of the indigenous designs that we were seeing in 678 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,880 Speaker 1: a lot of our research, and that they're thinner. Maybe 679 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: they're arrows or mountains or triangles or something decorative like 680 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: that versus you know, the the pin up girl tattoo, 681 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: the mom tattoo. I am super interested to hear about 682 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: trends and what people are drawn to and final call 683 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: for or any rad bird suggestions for me, and because 684 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: I want to get this tattoo, and of course I 685 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: will share it with the stuff I've never told you audience, 686 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: let's just crowdsource this thing. Also, if there are any 687 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: rad lady tattoo us listening to this in Atlanta right now, 688 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: please email me because uh, lady did my Battleship and 689 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,959 Speaker 1: I'd like a lady to do my red bird. So 690 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: with that, listeners. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 691 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,839 Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us 692 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: photos of your tattoos at mom Stuff podcast, and you 693 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: can also post photos of your rad tattoos on our 694 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 1: Facebook page. And be sure to tune into our next 695 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: episode where we're going to talk about women tattoo artists. 696 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: So be sure to tune in. And with that, let's 697 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: read some messages when we come right back from a 698 00:45:53,640 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: quick break. So I have a letter here from Amy 699 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 1: in which she references are are slightly long ago episode 700 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: on the White Mormorian Flock, which we referenced in our 701 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: episode on Boston Marriages. Amy says, I'm writing to say 702 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: that I share a number of striking connections with this 703 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: group of fabulous women. I'm a sculpture student at the 704 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: Rhode Island School of Design, I've always been drawn to 705 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: classical sculpture and had a desire to learn stone carving. 706 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: This past semester I decided to study abroad in Rome, 707 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,479 Speaker 1: and because I couldn't get enough of Italian culture and life, 708 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: I decided to stay for the summer. I spent this 709 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: semester learning how to carve marble with a funerary monument 710 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: carver in Guidonia, Italy, and currently I have an internship 711 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: in a CC, Italy at a marble carving studio to 712 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: further my education. I'm learning traditional techniques of copying plaster 713 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: models in marble using a pantograph. I say pantograph, like 714 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: I know what that is, Amy goes on to say. Additionally, 715 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: while listening to the podcast, I did a brief Google 716 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: search on some of the artists in the group. I 717 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: typed Harriet Hosmer's name into Google images, and the first 718 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: sculpture to come up with her sculpture of Beatrice sincy Coincidentally, 719 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: I lived and studied in the Palazzo since in Rome 720 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 1: during my semester abroad. It is the original home that 721 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: Beatrice lived in until she killed her father. Uh. There 722 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: are even some original frescoes still surviving in the palazzo. 723 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: I was very excited by all of these connections and 724 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: would love to do more research on these women. Amy. 725 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 1: I hope you do. They are fascinating. I love the 726 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: White Mermorian flock. They are badass artist ladies, and so 727 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: thank you for your letter. Well, I've got a letter 728 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,399 Speaker 1: here from Megan in response to our episode pot one 729 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: on librarians, and Megan is writing us from the American 730 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: Library Association. So that makes me really happy. Um So 731 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: Megan writes when I'm not listening to podcasts, and sometimes 732 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: when I am, I actually work promoting libraries and librarians 733 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,320 Speaker 1: at the American Library Association on our public awareness and 734 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: advocacy campaign Libraries Transform. I'm also a librarian, and I 735 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: hope to get a job out in library land working 736 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: in youth services, which is something a l a totally 737 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: knows and encourages. And yes, I rock a modcloth wardrobe 738 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 1: and have vintage home decre One of the very first 739 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 1: classes I took in library school was a class on 740 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: the history of libraries and librarianship. Hence Melville Dooey certainly 741 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: made an appearance. The good news is that my textbook 742 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 1: did point out that he was a womanizing crete. So 743 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: while he did do a lot for our profession and 744 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,919 Speaker 1: started the association I worked for, I've never harbored any 745 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,799 Speaker 1: illusions about him. On a side note, I like that 746 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: you've noted how he wanted to shorten words a new shorthand, 747 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,239 Speaker 1: one great example of which is his name, which he 748 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: changed from Melville spelled v I L l E to 749 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,399 Speaker 1: Melville v I l. Also, if you want to use 750 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: a cataloging system for your podcast but want to avoid 751 00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: Dewey you can go with the Library of Congress classification instead. Well, 752 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Megan, and I hope you enjoyed 753 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: Part two. And also, speaking of libraries, we had a 754 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,400 Speaker 1: couple of librarians on Facebook, uh mention a very important 755 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,799 Speaker 1: thing that we really did not cover at all in 756 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: our two part or history, that librarians are certainly not 757 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: just bookslingers. There are librarians that don't even deal with 758 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,799 Speaker 1: books at all. So now I feel like we've got 759 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: a part three that we need to do three four seven. 760 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I'll do them. I'm happy to do them. Um. 761 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,840 Speaker 1: So with that, listeners, send us your letters. Mom. Stuff 762 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot Com is our email address 763 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 764 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with 765 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: our sources so you can learn more about women and tattoos. 766 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 767 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 768 00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com