Speaker 1: The Around the NFL Podcast. What's this week's excuse? Boys?
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Round the NFL Podcast. I'm Greg Rosenthal
Speaker 1: in a room filled with one hero. He's such a
Speaker 1: big man in terms of his personality, he fills the room.
Speaker 1: It's Mark Sessler. I'm not sitting in the power. You're
Speaker 1: talking about yourself there. I mean, let's just be real here.
Speaker 1: We just like we attempted to start the show about
Speaker 1: six seven minutes ago. And you know, Dan is not
Speaker 1: here today. He's out on vacation. Hope he's having a
Speaker 1: great time. But he has a little manual timer that
Speaker 1: he uses next to his laptop to see where we
Speaker 1: are in real time in the show. And it looks
Speaker 1: like something from nineteen ninety six. But Greg today wielding
Speaker 1: the timer, um placed it hap haphappers Only what am
Speaker 1: I trying to say? On top of the cough button?
Speaker 1: And the show began an utter silence from Greg's mike.
Speaker 1: But now we're now we're here. Well, I'm glad now
Speaker 1: we spent a minute on that awesome story. You know,
Speaker 1: we we gotta fill the time. It's gonna be a
Speaker 1: big show. The news is so boring this weekend, Like
Speaker 1: the best news I could find that like is like
Speaker 1: Durham Smith signed a contract extension that we're skipping straight
Speaker 1: past the news mark and we're gonna get right into
Speaker 1: wide receiver rankings with their old friend Josh Norris, tight
Speaker 1: end rankings with Danny Kelly from The Ringer who does
Speaker 1: a great job on their draft guide, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: start going to school on the draft. As I know
Speaker 1: you have been, including on your weekend trip in Austin
Speaker 1: where you met you know, many adoring fans of the
Speaker 1: Around the NFL podcast. Yeah, I went into it, went
Speaker 1: to Austin, visited my brother, and I know we're on
Speaker 1: a tight clock here, Greg Saul to keep this story short,
Speaker 1: but UM had a great time. I mean, I've never
Speaker 1: been there before. We just picked a random city to
Speaker 1: go to and we did have a There was a
Speaker 1: pod listener that stopped us for a minute to say hello,
Speaker 1: and it was a very typical scenario where he had
Speaker 1: tried to there was I put a little Instagram post
Speaker 1: outside I was an Austin. He explained to his wife,
Speaker 1: we might run into this guy from this podcast, And
Speaker 1: so when it happened in real time, it's always sort
Speaker 1: of what you get is like the wife is like,
Speaker 1: what is it about this person that interests you on
Speaker 1: any level? And why did you stop down on our
Speaker 1: vacation to speak to him? So you know it went
Speaker 1: fairly well. That is next level though that he warned
Speaker 1: her we might see Mark Sessler and then you delivered.
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't do anything. I was just sitting there,
Speaker 1: but you're right, I think the fates delivered. Like Destiny
Speaker 1: the world, the podcast is very different. Mark and Justin
Speaker 1: sitting in Dan's quote unquote power chair. I'm sitting in
Speaker 1: the chair so that I can see Justin more importantly,
Speaker 1: because otherwise Mark and I would be sitting next to
Speaker 1: each other on the same side of the desk, like
Speaker 1: that couple who sits that way at restaurants. I'm sure
Speaker 1: Justin is part of that couple. He's laughing because it's true.
Speaker 1: If you're in a booth, I mean, what else are
Speaker 1: you gonna do? I agree, the booth is separated far
Speaker 1: apart from it. You know you want to be on
Speaker 1: that same both, Yeah, but I just mean out of
Speaker 1: like a two time and not a you know where
Speaker 1: it's like a bank cat that other people share in.
Speaker 1: You're you're both at the same side. That's too much. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I agree. I want to look great. Struggles with the
Speaker 1: human contact element of things sometimes, so there's that baked
Speaker 1: into it, even with my wife. Let's not wait any longer.
Speaker 1: Let's get Josh Norris of Underdog. I'm really not I
Speaker 1: I'm going on vacation though tomorrow and said, this is
Speaker 1: the last big thing I'm gonna do. Um, but before
Speaker 1: I go, I wanted to I wanted to learn. I
Speaker 1: wanted to go to school. I thought, what can we
Speaker 1: do today so that we get smarter about the NFL Draft?
Speaker 1: It's coming. The draft is in less than a month,
Speaker 1: Mark and I are starting to cram, and the best
Speaker 1: way to cram is to get on intelligent draft analysts
Speaker 1: like Josh Norris from Underdog Fantasy. Welcome Josh, gentlemen, great
Speaker 1: to see you. This is a smooth operation. I am
Speaker 1: joining today and already I believe of the one thousand,
Speaker 1: four hundred and eighty three episodes you all have done,
Speaker 1: this might be number one research. He knew the episodes.
Speaker 1: We don't even know the episodes. Sixteen away from fifteen hundred,
Speaker 1: then we're almost there, I mean, hopefully I'm invited back
Speaker 1: for the celebration because again, this is going to set
Speaker 1: a record record setter today. I'm through to be here.
Speaker 1: I am a listener. I hope everyone knows this. I'm
Speaker 1: a listener. In fact that Greg, I feel like in
Speaker 1: your position, I must say that Grave Digger didn't even
Speaker 1: bring up his music when joining the show today, Like
Speaker 1: this needs to be mentioned at the top. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. Who is speaking? Hey, sorry about that one.
Speaker 1: Get a little loose when Dan's not here, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like but the substitute teacher pops in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like, it's just like me with my children.
Speaker 1: Ain't no respect. You can be rest assured Dan will
Speaker 1: not be listening to this episode. He's who knows where
Speaker 1: he is right now. But so Underdog Fantasy getting a
Speaker 1: lot of pop the last few years. Josh Norris famously
Speaker 1: nailed his mock draft two years ago, and then we
Speaker 1: had a battle between Mark and Josh going into last year,
Speaker 1: which was highly contested. I don't know who won that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if a winner was ever claimed. Mark
Speaker 1: your thoughts, well, the storyline out of that draft, you know,
Speaker 1: we were in Las Vegas, tracking my mock you know,
Speaker 1: picked by pick in yours as well, but it was
Speaker 1: Crave Digger who at in the eleventh hour created a
Speaker 1: mock that totally totally dropped a bomb on my results.
Speaker 1: So I don't remember how you fared in that. Now,
Speaker 1: all that I know is last year doesn't matter. And
Speaker 1: then two years ago nailing sixteen of thirty two, Like
Speaker 1: you know, this, Dolphins going undefeated for a season is
Speaker 1: the only one I have to think about, right, It's
Speaker 1: almost like it's almost like f them picks. To be
Speaker 1: honest with you, where went all in for one draft
Speaker 1: cycle and nailed the best mock draft ever where the
Speaker 1: rest is kind of meaningless because I won one of them,
Speaker 1: you know, And who knows what happens this April? Mark?
Speaker 1: I mean, is now the time to like lay down
Speaker 1: the real challenge that we will track were the final
Speaker 1: weekend in April? What better time? Right? Absolutely, we had
Speaker 1: to force it on Dan once he is back in
Speaker 1: that chao. So instead we're just gonna do wide receiver rankings.
Speaker 1: We're gonna go to school, We're gonna figure this out.
Speaker 1: And we haven't really talked about these guys as much.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about the quarterbacks in general. And I
Speaker 1: thought I would get someone smart, uh like yourself on
Speaker 1: the show to give us your rankings, Josh, and then
Speaker 1: we would ask questions. We would pick them apart. We
Speaker 1: would maybe pick out a few different things unrelated to
Speaker 1: the receivers, but about like your physical appearance to needle
Speaker 1: you on and then try to get a reaction in
Speaker 1: a human way. That way. Well, let me start by saying,
Speaker 1: I think this wide receiver class is different and difficult
Speaker 1: because they're all built like you Greg, like they're all
Speaker 1: really you know, uh, not your typical PROD type big
Speaker 1: wide receivers who went on the outside and like that's fine.
Speaker 1: Mark might have been a better comp like I'm five five,
Speaker 1: one thirty five or I don't know. Some of these
Speaker 1: guys aren't that far. That's next that would be next level.
Speaker 1: But it's you know, now in the NFL you can
Speaker 1: be a quote unquote slot wide receiver, which was a
Speaker 1: stigma just a handful of years ago, right, and now
Speaker 1: you have all different shapes and sizes filling that spot.
Speaker 1: But it's it's a really fun wide receiver group. Albeit,
Speaker 1: I think we have to keep in mind how much
Speaker 1: we've been spoiled over the last few years with some
Speaker 1: absolute juggernauts and superstars at the position immediately once they
Speaker 1: hit the NFL. Yeah, I mean it's I feel like
Speaker 1: you guys said it well on your show with Hayden
Speaker 1: Winks where you talked about the fact that the NFL
Speaker 1: is changing and we almost just have to not pre
Speaker 1: judge this class for what it is because they're coming
Speaker 1: in as part of a different world of the passing
Speaker 1: game in general. And a lot of these guys, I
Speaker 1: think their size a couple of years ago would have
Speaker 1: freaked people out, but the speed with some of them
Speaker 1: appolutely changes the way you look at him. Who is
Speaker 1: sort of the first guy you studied that really jumped
Speaker 1: out to you, grabs your attention. Yeah, let's start at
Speaker 1: number one, and I'll go with Ohio State's Jackson Smith
Speaker 1: and Jigba who if we talk about what you just
Speaker 1: mentioned isolating a wide receiver, he didn't even play this
Speaker 1: past season, you know, just sixty snaps in total. But
Speaker 1: during that one year in twenty twenty one with Ohio
Speaker 1: State CJ Strout obviously at quarterback, Garrett Wilson at one
Speaker 1: wide receiver, Chris olav and the other one. Then you
Speaker 1: had Jason at six foot and a half one hundred
Speaker 1: and ninety six pounds, who was just a slot demon,
Speaker 1: like zero wasted movement and just his ability to create
Speaker 1: leverage work on the toes of a cornerback if it's
Speaker 1: man coverage or in zone where it's like so much
Speaker 1: trash and muddied up in the middle of the field.
Speaker 1: He just has like this particular mind meld with his
Speaker 1: quarterback that he's able to like sit in these windows
Speaker 1: in these spots and even work to the second or
Speaker 1: third gap if he needs to, and then as soon
Speaker 1: as he catches it, he just like rolls with a
Speaker 1: momentum and then picks up these chunk plays Like you
Speaker 1: will never consider him one of the top athletes at
Speaker 1: the wide receiver spot, but for him to be a
Speaker 1: plug in play player in this class, there's no doubt
Speaker 1: in my mind he should drank his number one. You
Speaker 1: had a really interesting breakdown of a play had against
Speaker 1: Penn State where he did everything that that's good about him.
Speaker 1: To create a big play out of the gate was
Speaker 1: what you love about him. But then his downfield, you
Speaker 1: know speed, He was tackled by Joey Porter Jr. And
Speaker 1: it was, like I thought, it was a wonderful sort
Speaker 1: of encapsulation of what you love about him, but also
Speaker 1: why there's he's not a you know, maybe elite guy
Speaker 1: on that level from the in terms of a speed angle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean he will set you up to lose
Speaker 1: immediately off the line in terms of like his release package, right,
Speaker 1: Like he'll take even a jab step the player you're
Speaker 1: talking about Mark as he took two steps of his
Speaker 1: left foot which forced the corner to take the outside lane,
Speaker 1: and that's because he wanted the inside move up the field.
Speaker 1: And then you know, sitting in that soft spot and
Speaker 1: then rolling away from momentum. And then as you said,
Speaker 1: you constantly see him create separation and then sustain it.
Speaker 1: But then whenever he has you know, fifteen or ten yards,
Speaker 1: then he'll get chased down at the end, which is
Speaker 1: totally fine, Like I will, I will give away some
Speaker 1: huge explosive moments of sixty yard touchdowns if this guy
Speaker 1: gets iron ninety one hundred, one hundred and ten targets
Speaker 1: during his rookie season, if not way more than that
Speaker 1: is possible, right Keenan Allen has gotten caught from behind.
Speaker 1: It a lot of times in the NFL, and we
Speaker 1: still see guys like I don't know why old names
Speaker 1: are coming up, but Troy Williamson and Darius Heyward Bay
Speaker 1: go high in the draft way back in the day
Speaker 1: just because they can break the big one, Like the
Speaker 1: big one can be overrated. I like Smith and Jigba
Speaker 1: they're at number one. I'm not worried that he missed
Speaker 1: last season. That feels very much like, look, I outproduced
Speaker 1: Garrett Wilson and Chris Lave And I know there's reasons
Speaker 1: for that in terms of the system, but it was
Speaker 1: still on the same team with them and easily outproduced.
Speaker 1: And then when he wasn't on the same team with him,
Speaker 1: he puts up over three hundred yards in the biggest
Speaker 1: game of the year, Like that should matter for something
Speaker 1: like we recognize Wes Welker and Julian Edeman when they
Speaker 1: were in the slot, like that was created by their
Speaker 1: scheme in part, but it was also still production and
Speaker 1: it's like incredibly important. And the fact that he had
Speaker 1: a hamstring injury that basically kept him out all of
Speaker 1: the last season, it felt like kind of like I'm
Speaker 1: sitting on where I put up a year ago, and
Speaker 1: that's fine, Like you have your whole career in front
Speaker 1: of you, you don't want anything worse to happen. I
Speaker 1: totally get it, and I totally look at him as
Speaker 1: like an option route master. And not every team is
Speaker 1: running those option routes, but for the ones that do,
Speaker 1: like the Patriots, for instance, who are picking at fourteen,
Speaker 1: and to me that this would be a receiver pick
Speaker 1: that could actually get right, they are. They love the
Speaker 1: three cone drill Jackson Smith and Jiga's three cone drill
Speaker 1: was absolutely insane. I think that absolutely translates to winning
Speaker 1: in the slot. He has great concentration, like he stops
Speaker 1: suddenly like you would expect. Everything seems like it'll translate
Speaker 1: to a thousand yard plus receiver. And yeah, maybe you're
Speaker 1: not as excited about him being like a true one,
Speaker 1: but if you're putting up twelve hundred yards every year
Speaker 1: as like a one B, that's still a first round pick. Now.
Speaker 1: He only rans six routes in one or two wide
Speaker 1: receiver sets during his entire time at Ohio State, so
Speaker 1: I think there is even a question if he's even
Speaker 1: out there in two wide receiver sets when we see
Speaker 1: multiple tight ends or a fullback or whatever else on
Speaker 1: the field. But yeah, I mean just to go back
Speaker 1: to circles to the start, like the stigma of slot
Speaker 1: wide receivers, like I don't think just exists anymore because
Speaker 1: we just saw a guy in the Triple Crown winned
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago in Cooper Cup. And then
Speaker 1: on top of that, the money that Christian Kirk is
Speaker 1: worth the Jaguars, Chris Godwin is now a different kind
Speaker 1: of body the name that you mentioned, I think Keenan,
Speaker 1: Allen slash amandros Saint Brown, while they have like different
Speaker 1: body types, Jason can immediately come in and fill that
Speaker 1: type of production role. And I used to say Greg
Speaker 1: and Mark that like you can't build your wide receiver
Speaker 1: room or your passing offense around a slot wide receiver.
Speaker 1: And I think that's totally changed, Like you totally can
Speaker 1: now with how these coordinators, these play callers manufacture space
Speaker 1: and opportunities over the middle of the field for these players. Now,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about your guy at number two,
Speaker 1: Jordan Addison at USC He was you know, Kenny Pickett's
Speaker 1: main target at Pits before that, and this is an
Speaker 1: interesting guy kind of gets right into what you were
Speaker 1: talking about, because he's five to eleven, weighs one hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy three pounds, and you mentioned that there have
Speaker 1: only been thirty two wide receivers in the past two
Speaker 1: decades that have weighed one hundred and seventy three or
Speaker 1: less at the combine, and like, the lineup of those
Speaker 1: guys that have succeeded is very limited. But what do
Speaker 1: you like about him? How why can't he succeed? Well,
Speaker 1: I think he can run levels or routes at all
Speaker 1: three levels of the field, and at the very least
Speaker 1: he is going to be like a really good vertical
Speaker 1: player for whatever team drafts him. But he almost has
Speaker 1: mastered like the dark arts element I would say of
Speaker 1: wide receiver play in terms of people should watch this
Speaker 1: on YouTube because Josh in his Brooklyn studio slash basement
Speaker 1: cave looks like he performs dark arts. Wait, like he
Speaker 1: posts on I don't know, I don't know what, like
Speaker 1: the modern equivalent of craigslists and people come over and
Speaker 1: there's some dark arts. I think that's his only fans channel,
Speaker 1: but for and from part of the day, Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: engaged in June, So that is that's great to find
Speaker 1: someone who shares that lifestyle with you. So getting back
Speaker 1: to football, um, this element of you know, forcing a
Speaker 1: cornerback in the direction that you want them to go
Speaker 1: in to in order to get to your spot. Right, So,
Speaker 1: like first he'll take this step or animated movement and
Speaker 1: you know that forces the corner to open up his
Speaker 1: hips in this direction he attacks that blind spot and
Speaker 1: then a corner is just completely off balance and then
Speaker 1: he works back. He has like these Gumby like movements too,
Speaker 1: where he can kind of contort his body, whether it
Speaker 1: be screens or shallow routes. And yeah, Mark, the size
Speaker 1: thing is fascinating because that they're being five in this
Speaker 1: class alone that way, one one hundred and seventy three
Speaker 1: pounds or less, and as you said, thirty two in
Speaker 1: the last twenty years, and three or four of them
Speaker 1: are probably in the top ten receivers, right, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's Jordan Addison, Josh Downs, Tank Dell, and then
Speaker 1: two others in Jalen Cropper and Darius Davis Flower. Seems
Speaker 1: like you truly is that size. He just put on
Speaker 1: ten pounds of muscle and you know sent it out
Speaker 1: the before and after picture for the combat like the whole,
Speaker 1: the whole, catch all term of route running, I would
Speaker 1: say probably Jordan Addison has like the best version of
Speaker 1: that here in terms of like sink your hips, create separation,
Speaker 1: sustaining it all that. I think like at the very worst,
Speaker 1: he's Darnell Mooney and you can get up to like
Speaker 1: the Emmanuel Sanders t Y Hilton territory, and those guys
Speaker 1: have obviously been especially t Y Hilton, extremely productive and
Speaker 1: top options for their teams at some point during their career. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he has a higher ceiling than that, even
Speaker 1: or or than Jackson Smith and jib I went into
Speaker 1: this and I'm admitting that I have more work to
Speaker 1: do here. I cramming, but I started watching these guys
Speaker 1: for the first time over the last week, and great
Speaker 1: play speed. I think like he's obviously faster than in
Speaker 1: jigbout like great feet, great suddenness. It's not that different
Speaker 1: than a slightly smaller Garrett Wilson. To me, it just
Speaker 1: seems like it's very easy to see him translate at
Speaker 1: the next level anyone with that good feet. And I
Speaker 1: like that he worked in two different systems with two
Speaker 1: different quarterbacks Granted they were both great quarterbacks, Kenny Pickett
Speaker 1: and Caleb Williams, but to me, that is a major
Speaker 1: thing you now don't have to work. Like seeing a
Speaker 1: receiver succeed in two different systems. It's like seeing a
Speaker 1: receiver going free agency from one to the other. That's
Speaker 1: completely taking them in different situations. And he was like
Speaker 1: incredibly productive in both. So to me, like these are
Speaker 1: the top two receivers in the draft, they seemed like
Speaker 1: the only two that are absolutely safe and are just
Speaker 1: gonna be starters and they'll probably be good from day one.
Speaker 1: And maybe they don't have the highest ceiling as a
Speaker 1: Jamar Chase and all those guys, but will be starters.
Speaker 1: And to be he has a little higher ceiling Smith
Speaker 1: and Jigba maybe a little higher floor where he's a
Speaker 1: great after catch guy, you know, good vision, you know
Speaker 1: in terms of seeing what's in front of him. But
Speaker 1: Addison can just get open man. And I liked him
Speaker 1: a lot. To your point, he mostly was a slot
Speaker 1: player at pitt so we have that checked off where
Speaker 1: he can play that in the NFL if he needs to.
Speaker 1: And then he was a predominantly right wide receiver at
Speaker 1: USC ninety five percent of the snaps or outside right
Speaker 1: wide receiver. I slightly disagree with you because the only
Speaker 1: reason oftentimes you know this we connect like athleticism with ceiling.
Speaker 1: George Addison might be like the worst athlete among this grouping,
Speaker 1: and he was average or below average in almost every
Speaker 1: single one of his categories. And then when you factor
Speaker 1: and weight and that, it obviously drops it down. But again,
Speaker 1: the nuances, the details of what I think you know
Speaker 1: wide receiver play is all about. He definitely encapsulates that
Speaker 1: at all three levels of the field, and he's probably
Speaker 1: the only one you can say that with. So definitely
Speaker 1: an agreement on that point with you. I enjoyed watching
Speaker 1: Save Flowers and again with one of your breakdowns, I
Speaker 1: thought you showed that like when you get him into
Speaker 1: kind of pre snap motion, there was a way to
Speaker 1: really use his skill set get him open and then
Speaker 1: suddenly like he's got defenders just behind him, like that
Speaker 1: speed there, that quickness is an asset. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think he also at Boston College has not been a
Speaker 1: wide receiver factory by any notion, and there are some
Speaker 1: bad quarterback players there. Do you think though, that he
Speaker 1: can come in and compete against like bigger NFL quarterback,
Speaker 1: cornerbacks and defenders on that front and still win the
Speaker 1: way he did in those situations. Yeah, definitely not a
Speaker 1: quarterback factory, seeing as though those quarterbacks stunk that were
Speaker 1: throwing him the football. Zave Flowers is fascinating because he's
Speaker 1: that guy this year and you know this, that gets
Speaker 1: like all the All Pro or Hall of Fame comparisons,
Speaker 1: whether it be Steve Smith or Antonio Brown, because people
Speaker 1: love to watch small wide receivers who win big. He
Speaker 1: was asked to do all the difficult stuff at Boston
Speaker 1: College in terms of play on the outside, be the
Speaker 1: vertical player, be the iso ball guy. And why that
Speaker 1: hurt probably his production because, as you said, when he
Speaker 1: was kind of the Z or the movement or the
Speaker 1: underneath or the drag routes and get the ball in
Speaker 1: his hands, allowed to win after the catch, he starred
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. To me, what that shows though,
Speaker 1: is the NFL. Hey, we can ask you can ask
Speaker 1: these questions of if he can win on the outside
Speaker 1: pit at least gives you a taste of it, because
Speaker 1: we know on the easy stuff he can shine, like
Speaker 1: the movement he has with the ball in his hands,
Speaker 1: and he loves to square up with his defenders too
Speaker 1: as soon as he catches it and almost turns into
Speaker 1: like a running back in those situations. So teams know
Speaker 1: he's going to be able to shine, probably as that
Speaker 1: z or is that slot player, but even having the glimpses,
Speaker 1: the moments, the opportunities to be more than that, and
Speaker 1: like the focal point of this passing game. I think
Speaker 1: when the teams look back, they'll be pleased that they
Speaker 1: actually had that question asked with him. I wasn't at
Speaker 1: like as excited you put him in your first tier.
Speaker 1: Essentially you had a top three of Smith and Jigba,
Speaker 1: Addison and Flowers and then a tear I went into
Speaker 1: it kind of thing game. Flowers is exactly my type.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love like I love the guys who
Speaker 1: just moved different than everyone else and are great. After
Speaker 1: the catch, I thought Caldarius like, it doesn't take long
Speaker 1: to see Kadarius Tony and think like, guys just don't
Speaker 1: move like that. There's a way to find a role
Speaker 1: for him as an explosive player. But Flowers didn't pop
Speaker 1: like that for me, at least at least like way
Speaker 1: ahead of the other small receivers in this class and
Speaker 1: not like not quite as much as a guy like
Speaker 1: Kadarius Tony, but that's who I kind of think is
Speaker 1: a model for him, like in terms of how they
Speaker 1: would use him, that he's not going to be doing
Speaker 1: all the normal receiver stuff at first, but they'll probably
Speaker 1: have him like use as a as a runner and
Speaker 1: kind of not gimmick plays, but but plays where you
Speaker 1: work to get him in the hands. Yeah, manufacturer touches.
Speaker 1: Um I had a out of left field comparison to
Speaker 1: get him on this crusade to not compare everyone to
Speaker 1: like Pro bowlers or all pros. Do you remember Eddie
Speaker 1: Royal who had like an awesome first season with Jay Cutler,
Speaker 1: I believe Janahan and Jay Cutler, and then Josh McDaniels
Speaker 1: came in. They trade away Jay Cutler and then went
Speaker 1: to Kyle Orton and is like you know this from
Speaker 1: your rod all days, Like everyone was all in an
Speaker 1: Eddie Royal because he had over a thousand total yards
Speaker 1: his rookie season and then it fell off a cliff.
Speaker 1: But he was almost of the same stature who with
Speaker 1: the ball in his hands was electric. Um I am
Speaker 1: totally with you there on this point. Just going back
Speaker 1: to Jason and why he's at the top is I
Speaker 1: don't think he necessarily runs the routes as they are
Speaker 1: on paper, in that he will like manipulate or change
Speaker 1: it based on like the defense and the coverage and
Speaker 1: all these other factors. With the spatial awareness that he has,
Speaker 1: I think Zave Flowers is like a bit more robotic
Speaker 1: in his you know, like I'm gonna run what's right.
Speaker 1: You can't pay for that, That's that's smart, That's um.
Speaker 1: That's why I wondered, Steve Smith is writing for Underdoor,
Speaker 1: working for Underdog right now, how did that negotiation go?
Speaker 1: Because he really liked Zay Flowers. He said he sort
Speaker 1: of reminded him of himself, And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't quite see that yet. He's certainly
Speaker 1: not as like as physical as Steve Smith was as
Speaker 1: a player. But I am curious just like how how
Speaker 1: that was bringing in Steve Smith to the company. Does
Speaker 1: he like leave food in the fridge at work? Like,
Speaker 1: what's what's he like around the office? Right? Yeah? He
Speaker 1: leads all the all hands meetings every Monday at noon Eastern.
Speaker 1: That's what he does. No, your timing could not be better.
Speaker 1: This morning we recorded what I planned to be about
Speaker 1: a forty five minute episode that turned into probably an
Speaker 1: hour and a half with Steve Smith. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've ever had him on the show, but he
Speaker 1: he just grabs it by the horns and takes it
Speaker 1: wherever he wants to go. So it was it was
Speaker 1: an interesting dynamic. Um, I'm not I listened to what
Speaker 1: you said or what you heard him say, and I
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be the same thing. And
Speaker 1: I came away thinking that maybe he misspoke at the
Speaker 1: front on say Flowers, like I don't think he necessarily
Speaker 1: believes they played the same exact spot that he is
Speaker 1: that movement guy that you talked about, like Steve was
Speaker 1: an X and it's crazy that everyone always plays like
Speaker 1: compares these small guys who wouldn't big to see every
Speaker 1: single year and will for the next twenty years too.
Speaker 1: But I think that he likes how competitive Zay Flowers
Speaker 1: is after the catch in terms of just being almost
Speaker 1: a runner with the ball in his hands, and I
Speaker 1: think that's where his I thought syem shows up the most.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd be excited. I mean if my team
Speaker 1: got Zay Flowers is like he'd be an exciting player.
Speaker 1: I just I'm not putting him like in that category.
Speaker 1: To me, it just seems like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: these guys and different people are going to have different
Speaker 1: opinions and twhy like maybe the third or fourth receiver
Speaker 1: in this class feels very similar and grading to the
Speaker 1: twelfth and I have a feeling a lot of mocks
Speaker 1: are going to get blown up. You mentioned X receivers
Speaker 1: that kind of brings us to your next tier. So
Speaker 1: you had a tier more of four more players, and
Speaker 1: it starts with your number four is Cedric Tillman, a
Speaker 1: little surprising out of Tennessee. And then Quentin Johnson who
Speaker 1: some people love. Ben Solac over at the Ringer. I
Speaker 1: saw him had number eleven overall, as his player did.
Speaker 1: Daniel Jeremia doesn't have him that high, but he has
Speaker 1: him pretty high. I saw the thirty third team. I
Speaker 1: don't know who made the ranking. They had him number
Speaker 1: two overall like Quentin Johnson. So Cedric Tillman not as
Speaker 1: big as Quinton Johnston. You have them four and five
Speaker 1: Tillman from Tennessee bigger receivers in a class full of
Speaker 1: small receivers. Why do you like Tillman so much to
Speaker 1: put him up that high? He just said something round
Speaker 1: me of Corey Davis as like one of the bigger
Speaker 1: body guys who does all the difficult stuff, like the
Speaker 1: dirty stuff over the middle of the field. You know,
Speaker 1: if you need a slant, if you need an in
Speaker 1: cutting route. There aren't that many in this class that
Speaker 1: like have that size that can win that. I think
Speaker 1: Johnson is the more intriguing conversation because he is a
Speaker 1: big body, like you said, six two and three quarters
Speaker 1: two hundred and eight pounds. The big plays are incredible.
Speaker 1: I mean, he averaged twenty two, eighteen and seventeen point
Speaker 1: eight yards per reception over the last three years, but
Speaker 1: he plays so small man like he here's the number
Speaker 1: for you, nineteen four smiss tackles, which is third best
Speaker 1: in this class. Yet I think he only yeah eight
Speaker 1: of twenty three contested targets over last year. He came
Speaker 1: down with twenty two of fifty four over the last
Speaker 1: three seasons. That's one hundred and twenty fifth among wide
Speaker 1: receivers in the twenty twenty three class. Like, we'll get
Speaker 1: to some of these other smaller guys, but they might
Speaker 1: win thirteen of eighteen, So it's it's weird he has
Speaker 1: because everyone was so terrified of his speed in the
Speaker 1: Big twelve, these runways to go through and because of
Speaker 1: that you see these awesome big plays. But whenever he's
Speaker 1: either working back towards the quarterback or over the middle
Speaker 1: of a field, when he actually has to face contact
Speaker 1: to me, kind of goes invisible. And that showed a
Speaker 1: major factor in that Georgia game to end the season
Speaker 1: where I think he only had one catch for five
Speaker 1: yards against kiey Ringo, who obviously is another prospect in
Speaker 1: this class. I mean, I know, you're thirteen of eighteen
Speaker 1: contested catches. Guy is Josh Downs, who you're pretty fascinated with,
Speaker 1: and we can get to him into a second. But
Speaker 1: Quinn Johnson, don't think he's just someone that you're going
Speaker 1: to have teams around the league that say, yeah, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of chess catches. Um he vanishes in
Speaker 1: certain games, but just the physical specimen in this draft
Speaker 1: specifically too, where there was not a good free agency
Speaker 1: crop and he's a different looking receiver than others that
Speaker 1: you're get he would he be overdrafted or would if
Speaker 1: in a different year, maybe he gets tiered in a
Speaker 1: different place. But the idea of him and what the
Speaker 1: potential is and what he could become is going to
Speaker 1: fascinate someone to grab him earlier than we might think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, I just think that they would be making
Speaker 1: the mistake doing that. But I can be totally wrong
Speaker 1: with this stuff. You know, Nope, you couldn't. It's never happened,
Speaker 1: It's not going to happen. Who does he remind you of?
Speaker 1: Because did you mentioned Martavis Bryan as a company? I did,
Speaker 1: I did, But even Martavis was even I think more's
Speaker 1: Mark physical, though, I mean, at least in terms of
Speaker 1: his body. He's not like as skinny as Mark Davis Bryant.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not saying that the frame is exactly
Speaker 1: the same, but you know, the inconsistency that we get
Speaker 1: from production wise from Gabriel Davis on a week to
Speaker 1: week basis, I think that's what we will get from
Speaker 1: Quentin Johnson, where there are going to be some games
Speaker 1: if he doesn't hit a big play, he might just
Speaker 1: be silent. And I'm a little bit terrified of that.
Speaker 1: So it really does go ahead. I was gonna say
Speaker 1: that the thirty third team thing I was talking about.
Speaker 1: So that's a website that's run Michael Mike Tannenbaum. Well,
Speaker 1: he listens to the show. He we called him out
Speaker 1: last week and I said, maybe I'll even hear this
Speaker 1: because he listens to the show in the Daniel Jeremiah episode.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's listened to the Josh Morris episode.
Speaker 1: We'll see, we'll find out if he ranks, you know,
Speaker 1: DJ over Josh Norris in terms of draft pedigree. He
Speaker 1: owns it. I think I think he's running this thing
Speaker 1: and it's all former NFL evaluators, personnel evaluators, and their
Speaker 1: big board has Johnston's second. So I think that shows
Speaker 1: you how like kind of old school NF felt. To
Speaker 1: Mark's point, I think, dudes, maybe look at this guy.
Speaker 1: And by the way, they have Roderick Jones the tackle
Speaker 1: from Georgia first. That's pretty wild too. Did you have
Speaker 1: a chance to watch Johnson yet, Yes. I thought he
Speaker 1: was just like, well, I agree with you. He seemed
Speaker 1: like he's going to be a player that's very frustrating
Speaker 1: in the NFL that he probably could he could produce
Speaker 1: in the right situation, and he could get open like
Speaker 1: he's explosive in the short area. So I think that's
Speaker 1: why it was exciting. Is a guy that big who
Speaker 1: is explosive. I think he can get open relatively maybe
Speaker 1: for a bigger guy, but will be inconsistent, like not
Speaker 1: tough at the catch point. You're right, and we'll probably
Speaker 1: be frustrating, like a frustrating guy if you take him
Speaker 1: high to go back. I kind of asked Steve that question,
Speaker 1: because again, no one's better at like playing bigger than
Speaker 1: your size than he is, and like, is that something
Speaker 1: coaching can take up in terms of just hey, utilizing
Speaker 1: this six foot nine frame when you when you have
Speaker 1: your wingspan instead of like playing like your five to eleven.
Speaker 1: And I almost believe Greg it comes like from the individual,
Speaker 1: It comes from within somehow and like competitive. So I
Speaker 1: can't really answer if he's going to improve that with
Speaker 1: NFL coaching because you kind of think with all these opportunities,
Speaker 1: I mean, fifty four of them over the last three years,
Speaker 1: and we just haven't seen any development with it. But
Speaker 1: that's not to say, like if he does get drafted
Speaker 1: mark that he's going to be a zero. But he
Speaker 1: already has that insane deep speed, that he will hit
Speaker 1: big plays no matter what. But if we got like
Speaker 1: plays big plus big plays, then I'd be much more
Speaker 1: comfortable feeling good about him in the first round. Yeah,
Speaker 1: zero would be a problem for all involved, no doubt
Speaker 1: about that. I love that you put Tilman though fourth
Speaker 1: before we quickly wrap up the thing was because I
Speaker 1: watched Tilman and I really liked him a lot. And
Speaker 1: I think the only reason he's not getting looked as
Speaker 1: because he was hurt this last year. But when he
Speaker 1: was on the same team as High and I know
Speaker 1: they played different kind of spots on the roster, he
Speaker 1: had a thousand more yards at him Like that matters
Speaker 1: a lot to me. And similar to Johnston as like
Speaker 1: one of the bigger guys in the class, but like sneaky,
Speaker 1: long strides, like could be an X, like very fluid,
Speaker 1: makes tough catches, like probably a number two receiver, but
Speaker 1: potentially a very good number two receiver. Lanceyerlaner guy compared
Speaker 1: him to Michael Pittman, and I thought that was a
Speaker 1: perfect comparison. He's a Michael Pittman type player who just
Speaker 1: goes and gets it, And to me, there's not a
Speaker 1: big difference between him and and like I said, like
Speaker 1: if if he's going to be later in the draft,
Speaker 1: I would love to take him and maybe like him
Speaker 1: more than Johnson. All right, what are you gonna see
Speaker 1: about Doins? I know, I know Josh Downs, like you
Speaker 1: seem to really be fascinated with and you mean frustrated
Speaker 1: with big players who plays small. You said the opposite
Speaker 1: about Downs, and I think also you just see the production.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that he had like forty three percent of
Speaker 1: UNC's targets in twenty twenty one catches and he had
Speaker 1: ninety plus passes catches a year ago. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: all you know, schemed up stuff. It was like I think,
Speaker 1: only eleven the more screens. So it's like this player
Speaker 1: seems fascinating to me. I mean again, he's another very
Speaker 1: small wide receiver. Why do you like him so much?
Speaker 1: I think your opinions, you see, you have them a
Speaker 1: little higher than some other people do. Yeah, it does
Speaker 1: come back to just someone of that size winning thirteen
Speaker 1: of eighteen contested catches. And so like I think you
Speaker 1: when you think about the slot wide receivers, many people
Speaker 1: believe they were just replaceable types. So does one have
Speaker 1: a calling card? Can they maximize or do something different
Speaker 1: than everyone else. And I would say for Josh Downs,
Speaker 1: it's playing bigger than his size, you know, it just
Speaker 1: allows for more to happen for a player that is
Speaker 1: five foot nine, one hundred and seventy one pounds. He's
Speaker 1: I think, extremely explosive in his movements. He has like
Speaker 1: this stop and start nature to them, and he kind
Speaker 1: of has that JSN field for soft areas. Like if
Speaker 1: the Panthers take CJ. Strout at number one and obviously
Speaker 1: can't get JSN at thirty nine overall, like filling that
Speaker 1: maybe with Josh Downs, who is truly a slot only
Speaker 1: would make a lot of sense to me because it's
Speaker 1: that middle of the field connection that Downs with his
Speaker 1: quarterbacks at UNC two. It's um I don't know if
Speaker 1: we've ever had a class that like lacks that top
Speaker 1: end appeal and just has so many of these names,
Speaker 1: but we know that so a number of these are
Speaker 1: going to be extremely productive. It's just obviously landing on
Speaker 1: the right ones in the right offense. And you look
Speaker 1: at these draft classes and like all these receivers keep
Speaker 1: getting underdrafted, Like all the second round receivers for the
Speaker 1: most part, not all, but the hit rate on second
Speaker 1: round receivers has been sky high compared to other positions,
Speaker 1: Like guys like Pittman, was Higgins technically a second round receiver.
Speaker 1: He was just like, there's just been so many of
Speaker 1: these guys, and I think that'll happen in this class
Speaker 1: because I don't think anyone's many of them are gonna
Speaker 1: get taken, and none are getting taken in the top ten.
Speaker 1: Maybe only three get taken in the first round or something,
Speaker 1: but it feels like there's twelve good ones. I kind
Speaker 1: of like the look look a Mingo. I like a
Speaker 1: little Jonathan Mingo. Look look pretty good. I like Tank Dell.
Speaker 1: You said stop and start like that kid can he
Speaker 1: can stop and start. He's very very I don't care
Speaker 1: if he doesn't have a great forty. He's very explosive
Speaker 1: in the first ten and can get open when it
Speaker 1: matters where he needs to get open. And everyone's going
Speaker 1: to have their other different little favorites, and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that as it gets in the job. I guess
Speaker 1: my point is like there's like fourteen of them, and
Speaker 1: I'm not sure there's like a huge difference after the
Speaker 1: top two. It's it's like the year that the independent
Speaker 1: films blew up the oscars and changed and that that
Speaker 1: was sort of phony in a way, but it changed
Speaker 1: everything we thought about independent film. Maybe this is the
Speaker 1: undersized wide receiver class that changes our minds a couple
Speaker 1: of years from now and shifts, Yeah, how we do things.
Speaker 1: So might say it's the gregon mark here of three
Speaker 1: and I don't like that. I don't like I don't
Speaker 1: like that picture on the way that we discussed. I
Speaker 1: do consider myself a tankd out. I have the confidence
Speaker 1: to be named Nathaniel and be one of the smallest
Speaker 1: people on the field and get the nickname tank. I
Speaker 1: don't know how show. Yeah, we talked just a little
Speaker 1: bit about Jalen Hyatt because this Tennessee offense. I think
Speaker 1: it'd be funnier if I just didn't let you that
Speaker 1: was underdog fantasy. Thank you, Josh, You've been amazing. I've
Speaker 1: really just got to complete this. Sorry, I'm really sorry,
Speaker 1: but we're gonna get to Danny Kelly after this break.
Speaker 1: See you, Josh. All right, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: You know, thanks for Josh. Norris felt like we we
Speaker 1: heard everything we needed to hear from Josh. We had
Speaker 1: reached our endpoint. Yeah, he wanted to add a few
Speaker 1: more details, and you shut the door on that opportunity.
Speaker 1: It's just that you're the host whenever, whenever someone says,
Speaker 1: you know, can I have say one more thing that
Speaker 1: no one's ever said? No, I think it was time.
Speaker 1: It feels like a very Rosenthal hammer swing. I enjoy
Speaker 1: you and all my friends. I'm feeling the power chair.
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm so excited to let uh Danny
Speaker 1: Kelly uh enter the program here today. Danny Kelly has
Speaker 1: been writing for The Ringer for who knows how how long?
Speaker 1: A long time? How long, Danny, you can jump in here,
Speaker 1: about seven years, I think now a long time. Kind
Speaker 1: of crazy. So a fantasy writer at the Ringer. But
Speaker 1: he's not just fantasy. He's also their big draft expert.
Speaker 1: He's wearing two hats, two big hats. He's got the
Speaker 1: big board up by Danny Kelly over at the Ringer.
Speaker 1: He's been a Seahawks fan forever and he has a
Speaker 1: mysterious man in the background of his YouTube shot. Who
Speaker 1: is that? Is that a Philadelphia Philly? What is going
Speaker 1: on there? That's Ken Griffey Jr. In Washington and he
Speaker 1: played for the Baby Ms for a spell there when
Speaker 1: he's like eighteen years old, and so yeah, let's picture him.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to start off. You didn't hear
Speaker 1: our previous interview with Josh Nowris, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on Jail and Highatt Danny. I think
Speaker 1: he's he's very good at one or two things and
Speaker 1: that will get him on the field early in his career,
Speaker 1: and then he's gonna have to develop from there, be
Speaker 1: a little bit more well round a route runner, you know,
Speaker 1: expand all that, get a little bit better at catching
Speaker 1: the football, but overall a very explosive, big play receiver
Speaker 1: who I think has a role. Okay, I surprise you
Speaker 1: with that, and you don't even know what the backstory
Speaker 1: is and you don't need to. I just hope that Josh,
Speaker 1: here's that. I thought that was excellent Jalen Hyatt analysis. Actually,
Speaker 1: but yeah, before we do get to the tight ends,
Speaker 1: because we're kind of structuring this show and pass catchers
Speaker 1: in general, wide receivers tight ends, do you haven't, like,
Speaker 1: what is your hottest or least conventional wide receiver take
Speaker 1: or just or a couple just like something up there
Speaker 1: where you feel like you're a little different than consensus
Speaker 1: at receiver. That's a really good question. I think, let's
Speaker 1: see here, Marvin Mims is discount Jordan Addison. That that's good.
Speaker 1: Marvin Mims in the second instead of Jordan Addison in
Speaker 1: the first kind of play similar roles. I think Addison's
Speaker 1: a better route runner, but generally speaking, around the same size,
Speaker 1: both big play receivers, both a lot of production. I
Speaker 1: like THEMS a lot. I think it's kind of strange
Speaker 1: how he doesn't have a whole lot of hype right now.
Speaker 1: But to me, he extremely fast, like he can the
Speaker 1: term the expression I heard that I really liked is
Speaker 1: he can beat guys off the dribble. He's just like
Speaker 1: one step, but he's down the field and he gets
Speaker 1: past coverage. So that's what I picture when I think
Speaker 1: about him. So I think he has a potential to
Speaker 1: be a steal in the draft. It's such an unusual
Speaker 1: draft class this year because we just talked with Josh
Speaker 1: Norris about how small the wide receivers are. But when
Speaker 1: you look at these tight ends, I mean, they are
Speaker 1: massive bodied individuals. There's some like literally human freakazoids. Like
Speaker 1: entering the league at this time around, And I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed your write up because I think it allowed you
Speaker 1: just to use language just to describe their bodies in general,
Speaker 1: like what these teams are going to get? I mean,
Speaker 1: are there a couple of teams if you're thinking, like
Speaker 1: you know, we need a pass catcher, we need a
Speaker 1: target far offense, It's like this might be the year
Speaker 1: where you swing on a tight end and just maybe
Speaker 1: let some of these wide receivers fall deeper down. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think that's It's such an interesting class from the
Speaker 1: tight end point of view, because I think the NFL
Speaker 1: has not had a ton of success with tight ends
Speaker 1: in the first round. Like if you go back in
Speaker 1: the last ten years or so, first round tight ends
Speaker 1: generally speaking are kind of busts. Even Kyle Pitts I
Speaker 1: think hasn't really lived up to his draft status yet,
Speaker 1: though I do think he will eventually. But that's part
Speaker 1: of the deal, Like it takes these guys a little
Speaker 1: bit longer. So, on one hand, I think there's a
Speaker 1: chance some of these highly touted tight ends will drop
Speaker 1: a little bit in the draft. Rod. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: like you were mentioning, you know, with the receiver class
Speaker 1: kind of, I think the NFL is a little bit
Speaker 1: split on them. I don't know if there's really any
Speaker 1: you know, top tier guy. There's no Chase, there's no Mr.
Speaker 1: Chase in this class. And so we could see teams
Speaker 1: just have a look at it more like a holistic
Speaker 1: point of view, like we're just gonna get a pass
Speaker 1: catch or a playmaker. We're gonna get this guy, plug
Speaker 1: him into our offense and go from there. From that
Speaker 1: point of view, maybe we see two or three or
Speaker 1: four tight ends go in the first round rather than
Speaker 1: some of these shrimpy one hundred and seventy three pound
Speaker 1: receivers or whatever. Like to me, that's just like a
Speaker 1: little bit worrisome. Day Flowers, Jordan Addison, even Jaylor Hyatt,
Speaker 1: very very skinny guys. And so maybe the NFL teams
Speaker 1: will opt to go a little bit bigger and draft
Speaker 1: one of these other quote unquote playmakers even though they're
Speaker 1: not receivers technically, right, Thank Dell Josh Downs who who
Speaker 1: you mentioned, Yeah, he's tiny, Like well, it feels like
Speaker 1: a lot of that where it's all these guys who
Speaker 1: I'd rather have pick a wide receiver down Tillman, who
Speaker 1: you seem to like relatively. Um, you know, pick them
Speaker 1: in the second, pick a different position in the first
Speaker 1: because it's close enough, but the first might be those
Speaker 1: tight ends as you mentioned, I'm I was a little
Speaker 1: surprised to see Michael Mayer uh as your number one
Speaker 1: tight end. You call them a berserker uruk high from
Speaker 1: Helm's Deep. Do you know what that is? Great? No?
Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, it's it's a pretty it's a pretty
Speaker 1: great um compare. It's just this like underground, absolute, like
Speaker 1: mythical being. Just look, just again. It looks beyond something
Speaker 1: we would imagine from a human being. And I just like,
Speaker 1: this is what I love about your writing. Was like
Speaker 1: very picturesque. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not there for that,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it was very evocative Danny. And
Speaker 1: as someone I saw Lord of the Rings and a
Speaker 1: special screening before it came out with other new with
Speaker 1: other new Line employees who were excited because it was
Speaker 1: gonna change their lives. I lived, you know, I was
Speaker 1: a roommate with one of them. And people walked out
Speaker 1: of that like it was a religious experience. They were
Speaker 1: so excited, so happy, and I was like halfway through,
Speaker 1: I was like, are they ever gonna just stop walking?
Speaker 1: It's just like they just keep walking, and I've, I've
Speaker 1: it's very rare that I keep my mouth shut and
Speaker 1: don't say anything that I'm thinking. But I just kept
Speaker 1: my mouth shut and let them have their moment so
Speaker 1: you can have this moment and talk. Michael Mayer. That's
Speaker 1: I mean that what you're describing is how I felt
Speaker 1: watching the Michael Mayor tape. So there you go. Religious
Speaker 1: experience for me. No, I don't know. To me, it's
Speaker 1: tough because I really like Don Kinka from Utah. I'm
Speaker 1: guessing we'll get to him. But Michael Mayer to me
Speaker 1: is just really complete. He's a really good blocker, very
Speaker 1: very strong, and he's, you know, not the elite level
Speaker 1: athlete that some of these other guys in this class are,
Speaker 1: but he's a good athlete, is above average athlete, and
Speaker 1: he is the type of guy who could play on
Speaker 1: all three downs. He's not going to give away any
Speaker 1: like formation formational tendencies or play calling tendencies. He's just
Speaker 1: kind of like that prototypical y tight end. And I
Speaker 1: think the thing where he separates himself a little bit
Speaker 1: from maybe some of the other guys in his class.
Speaker 1: Is just his catch strength at the you know, at
Speaker 1: the catch point. Basically he in combat catch situations. He's
Speaker 1: like unheard of good Like he's catch. Is that like
Speaker 1: one of the new terms that's from Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings too? Um yeah, no, he to me, he's just
Speaker 1: so strong. He just knows how to box out guys.
Speaker 1: He has vice greup haants that kind of thing. He's
Speaker 1: just so um tough and physical at the catch point.
Speaker 1: He's gonna be a good red zone all right, He's
Speaker 1: gonna be a quarterback's best friend. All the cliches. But
Speaker 1: it's I love your in your mock draft because you're right.
Speaker 1: He led the league and among all tight ends and
Speaker 1: contested catches. You called said he's built like a tank
Speaker 1: and plays like one. And you paired them with the
Speaker 1: Detroit Lions, which is exactly sort of what they're looking for,
Speaker 1: and they, you know, out goes t. J. Hawkinson, Like
Speaker 1: incomes this guy who kind of fits what the Lions
Speaker 1: are trying to do. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know they're
Speaker 1: a take a hunk out of you type of team,
Speaker 1: Like that's their ethos, that's their personality. And he I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys saw him interviewing at
Speaker 1: the combine, but Michael Mayer is the most intense individual
Speaker 1: I think I saw at that at the combine, and
Speaker 1: you know, he just kind of gets up there. He's
Speaker 1: like super confident. He just towers over everybody and he's
Speaker 1: just like, I don't know, it was hard to explain,
Speaker 1: but he's very detroit. Lions e to me, he just
Speaker 1: Dan Campbell is you're just you're profiling here, You're profiling
Speaker 1: I mean, if but that makes sense, he's the most
Speaker 1: Dan I mean, and that's what coaches do. I mean,
Speaker 1: Dan Campbell might be looking for the guy he could
Speaker 1: never be because that it's not like Michael Mayer's like
Speaker 1: some incredible blocker or anything. I know, there's like the
Speaker 1: Witt and comparisons. But maybe he gets to be a
Speaker 1: good blocker. But he's not a huge guy or anything
Speaker 1: like that. But you're saying just in terms of his weight,
Speaker 1: like the competitiveness, Yeah, just catching the ball. That seems
Speaker 1: like an important thing for a tight end, right, And
Speaker 1: I think you know, the Lions want to be multidimensional,
Speaker 1: they want to run the ball. You know, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: signed David Montgomery. They want to have the ability to
Speaker 1: do it all kind of, and I think he doesn't.
Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't pigeonhole them into passing or running
Speaker 1: on any given down. So to me, that's where his
Speaker 1: value is. And they don't have a guy that's really
Speaker 1: coming in to replace what Hawkinson was given them before.
Speaker 1: Our guy. Daniel Jeremiah called Dalton Kincaid a more explosive
Speaker 1: version of zach Ertzum And you're right up your comp Cole,
Speaker 1: And you said, I don't even want to say it,
Speaker 1: but I'm thinking it. What are you thinking for the
Speaker 1: people that? Yeah, who do you think I'm talking about? There? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly what it was. Just like it's
Speaker 1: like I say it that you're teasing and I enjoy it.
Speaker 1: People get so mad, Greg when you compare people, when
Speaker 1: you compare prospects to the elite players at the position,
Speaker 1: even though I do it all the time. Um, it's
Speaker 1: just to me. When he moves around, he's not quite
Speaker 1: as heavy as as Travis Kelsey, but he the way
Speaker 1: he moves, the smoothness, the fluidity his run after the catch, Um,
Speaker 1: it's reminiscent of Travis Kelsey. It really reminded me of
Speaker 1: Travis Kelsey watching him. So, um, I've always said my
Speaker 1: my sort of bit is that Travis Kelsey looks like
Speaker 1: he's pretending he's surfing when he runs routes, like he's
Speaker 1: just kind of like, you know, I don't even know it,
Speaker 1: like I don't know the surfing term as well. I
Speaker 1: think that's a good way to do it. He's very
Speaker 1: fake it. He's very often kind of you know, weaving
Speaker 1: through the chargers, looks like he's back on a surfboard.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, so to me, he's just like fluid,
Speaker 1: really natural, really good after the catch. Um, he doesn't
Speaker 1: not he does not block very well. In fact, he
Speaker 1: kind of gets rocked when he's trying to block anybody.
Speaker 1: But um, you know, as a pass catcher, is a
Speaker 1: pure pass catcher. I think he has potential to be
Speaker 1: the best in this clas he's just so smooth, so athletic,
Speaker 1: good body control, can go up and twist and contort
Speaker 1: in the air and come down with football you know,
Speaker 1: all that good stuff. I want to talk more about
Speaker 1: Kincaid because I'm I I loved what I saw in
Speaker 1: my limited viewing. Admittedly limited but at first I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk and I wanted to be bring our producer
Speaker 1: Justin Graver in here too, Um, Justin. Have you noticed
Speaker 1: the simmering bromance here between Mark and Danny? Because Mark
Speaker 1: is a word smith, it takes it takes a lot
Speaker 1: to impress Mark in terms of like writing ability. But
Speaker 1: he said it before the show, he said it a
Speaker 1: few times on the show. He really likes the way Danny, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, turns a phrase and that's what that's what
Speaker 1: gets Mark up in the morning. Yeah, And I can
Speaker 1: see the connection forming already over the Lord of the Rings,
Speaker 1: you know, comparisons, and I can just see it in
Speaker 1: Mark's eyes. He's smitten. I'm not gonna deny it. Like
Speaker 1: you've won me over with the entire projects and you've
Speaker 1: done it. Have you two ever met? Have you ever
Speaker 1: two ever met? Yeah? Were not enough? Not enough? Is
Speaker 1: it's put into draft guide writing, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: People think it's just kind of I mean it like
Speaker 1: people think it's just like all about evaluation. But over
Speaker 1: the years, like the evaluations kind of even out and
Speaker 1: some of the I see out there, some of these
Speaker 1: people making their big boards. They don't try to entertain
Speaker 1: at all. That's where DK comes in right there. He's
Speaker 1: the Dalton Kincaid of big board writers. I don't know.
Speaker 1: To me, it'd be hard to imagine taking Michael Mayer
Speaker 1: over Dalton Kincaid, and I could totally see why Kincaid
Speaker 1: would go in front of all the receivers in this class,
Speaker 1: even though that makes me nervous because of what you
Speaker 1: said about the tight end position that it's just man,
Speaker 1: it's just been really hard to project. But I'm I'm
Speaker 1: almost a little surprised that Kincaid doesn't have even more pop.
Speaker 1: I guess just because he didn't he didn't play as much.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's it because he just looks like when when
Speaker 1: I saw DJ Daniel Jeer my R guy like rank
Speaker 1: him that high without the tape as much like man,
Speaker 1: I think it's for a reason. His hands are crazy.
Speaker 1: He shakes up tacklers like crazy, and his burst is
Speaker 1: just wild for a tight end at that size. Like
Speaker 1: I don't need to see the testing. It's there on
Speaker 1: the field, like he has balance, he has the hands,
Speaker 1: but it's the burst to me, because I think that's
Speaker 1: the easiest. I think the eye test does matter a
Speaker 1: little bit and I think burst is something you can
Speaker 1: see and like that dude is just gonna get open.
Speaker 1: It's like hard to imagine if he's in the right system,
Speaker 1: not making a ton of plays, and so to me,
Speaker 1: he's more exciting and that I'm just falling for the
Speaker 1: shiny object. And I could totally see him going in
Speaker 1: front of any wide receiver in this class, and definitely
Speaker 1: I would want him ahead of Mayor because you know
Speaker 1: the you know the meme that like get shared on
Speaker 1: Twitter all the time where it's like the guy who's
Speaker 1: all of a sudden leans forward in his chair. What
Speaker 1: he's doing doing the video games? He's got the controller
Speaker 1: in his hands, Like this is to me what happened
Speaker 1: when I turned on the Concade tape. Yeah, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: hold on, you have my attention, because I kind of
Speaker 1: went in like thinking, oh, he's probably a little bit overrated,
Speaker 1: but no, I loved I loved everything about it. Is
Speaker 1: like one of the most exciting. There's like three or
Speaker 1: four players that you kind of like think of when
Speaker 1: because they're like honestly going through one hundred and two
Speaker 1: hundred players, you know, during the draft process, it becomes
Speaker 1: a slog so he was one of like a handful
Speaker 1: of guys that I'm just like, seriously, WHOA, this guy's awesome.
Speaker 1: I love this player. And I think to me, you know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned like it's hard to imagine anyone picking may
Speaker 1: Or over him. I think, to me, it's just stylistically,
Speaker 1: what do you want? It's kind of like the receiver position.
Speaker 1: There's just so many different types of receiver out there
Speaker 1: that it's almost like a vibe saying what kind of
Speaker 1: player do you want in your offense? So I could
Speaker 1: absolutely see Kincaid going over Mayor. It just depends on
Speaker 1: who's picking at that point. I want the big playmaker.
Speaker 1: That's the vibe I like. I mean, they both have
Speaker 1: great hands. You can't tell me Dalton Kinkaid doesn't have
Speaker 1: great an ya, it's great hands too. No, he does
Speaker 1: for sure. I you know, I'm with Greg. I'm getting
Speaker 1: to the tape maybe a little bit later than you
Speaker 1: and fellow draft knicks around the country. But someone that
Speaker 1: just jumped out to me and I'm not alone, and
Speaker 1: this one was just Darnell Washington, and I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: a clip I saw where he was in a shifting
Speaker 1: situation with another big bodied individual who was six foot
Speaker 1: four and he towered over him because he's six foot seven,
Speaker 1: he's two sixty four. He's doing stuff at the combine
Speaker 1: with like the twenty yards shuttle that's insane. Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know how this guy escapes the first round on
Speaker 1: any level, because it's just like the concept of what
Speaker 1: you could do with him, and how athletic he is
Speaker 1: and what he looks like on a football field. It's
Speaker 1: just like, sign me up for the next seven or
Speaker 1: eight years of this individual. Yeah, I mean, it's planet theory, right,
Speaker 1: There's just not very many guys on the planet his big,
Speaker 1: that big, and that fast, that athletic. I was actually
Speaker 1: pretty shocked to see him. I think he ran the
Speaker 1: third fastest three cone of the combine of any player,
Speaker 1: not just tight end like of any players like Jackson
Speaker 1: Smith and Jigba in a corner or something. You know,
Speaker 1: we're faster than him in the three cone, which was shocking.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that necessarily shows up on tape,
Speaker 1: but it's so here. Isn't that a problem? Everyone's like, well,
Speaker 1: you don't really see it when he plays football. I
Speaker 1: think it just tells you maybe a little bit more
Speaker 1: just how good of an athlete. He is not necessarily
Speaker 1: like going to show up in terms of his route running.
Speaker 1: But he's just a really good athlete. Roo can you know,
Speaker 1: sink his hips and all that stuff. But to me
Speaker 1: when I watched him, you know, he's a dominant run
Speaker 1: blocker in space, Like he engholfs people in the screen
Speaker 1: game when they get him moving in space, and like
Speaker 1: at the second level, he's absolutely dominant. So I think
Speaker 1: a team that likes using the screen game would absolutely
Speaker 1: love this guy. I think he's very good, at least
Speaker 1: above average as like an inline blocker, as a you know,
Speaker 1: in the passing game, and so you can use him
Speaker 1: as an inline guy to have that extra protection to
Speaker 1: the quarterback. So like he's he can do a lot
Speaker 1: of different things for your offense. Plus, I think he's
Speaker 1: got there's just a lot of meat on the bone
Speaker 1: in terms of his ability as a pass catcher. He's
Speaker 1: so big, so physical. He's six seven, two sixty five
Speaker 1: or you know, I think he played at like two
Speaker 1: eighties something. Honestly, Listen, he might slim down for the combine,
Speaker 1: but he's just such a dominant force in the red
Speaker 1: zone you could just throw it up and let him
Speaker 1: go get it. I don't think he's the most natural
Speaker 1: pass catcher of this group, but his ability to be
Speaker 1: a run blocker and pass bocker and basically do it
Speaker 1: all is what is going to get him in the
Speaker 1: first roun. He's probably gonna be a first round pick,
Speaker 1: I'd say, just because of the physical traits in the
Speaker 1: upside there. It reminds me of this horrible experience I
Speaker 1: had in high school where I played cornerback because I
Speaker 1: was like my size and they were like just at
Speaker 1: the eighteenth cornerback and there was a game where like
Speaker 1: seventeen guys got shredded, and so I'm out there and
Speaker 1: we were playing a team that had no quarterbacks, so
Speaker 1: they were just direct snapping to like a left tackle
Speaker 1: who could run fast, and there are a couple of
Speaker 1: scenarios where it's like, I've got this guy coming straight
Speaker 1: at me. Why am I on the earth right now?
Speaker 1: So I think that's how a smaller cornerback is going
Speaker 1: to feel against this Washington. I could see that. I
Speaker 1: could see the Titans taking that. I forget who was
Speaker 1: the coach at the combine who said, like some personnel gay,
Speaker 1: It was like it really is important to be a
Speaker 1: good looking team coming off the bus. I mean someone
Speaker 1: said that, and it's like, I don't know, but if
Speaker 1: you're hanging outside the bus, I guess right, like who
Speaker 1: is staying on that around that bus. But the Titans
Speaker 1: are that team that like that looked great coming off
Speaker 1: the bus. The Patriots like to be that team a
Speaker 1: little bit too, or at least in the past that
Speaker 1: used to. We'll see, we're gonna take a quick break, Danny,
Speaker 1: and then we'll wrap up tight ends in any other
Speaker 1: big picture thoughts before we say goodbye. Okay, we are back, Danny.
Speaker 1: When you looked at athletic tight ends, why didn't you
Speaker 1: rank Sam Laporta higher on your Big Part number sixty.
Speaker 1: This was the guy that intrigued me, I think in
Speaker 1: the way that Darnell Washington intrigued Mark just because you
Speaker 1: can you can see him getting again short area quickness
Speaker 1: where you can see him open, getting open quickly, which
Speaker 1: is what is going to happen in the NFL. He's
Speaker 1: stuck in an offense that's stuck in like you know twenty,
Speaker 1: you know forty seven, and so they never know how
Speaker 1: to use they're awesome tight ends that they have, but
Speaker 1: we've seen tight ends from Bio obviously have a lot
Speaker 1: of success. Uh, why is Sam Laporta not higher on
Speaker 1: your rankings? Defend your home man Um, I would love
Speaker 1: to see the consensus ranks. I feel like I'm a
Speaker 1: little bit higher than that might be true. I guess
Speaker 1: it was kind of like when I saw the common
Speaker 1: back when when I saw the combine numbers plus his tape, Like,
Speaker 1: his combine numbers are insane. He was like ninetieth percentile
Speaker 1: in most of these things. So he is a He's
Speaker 1: a freaky athlete from Iowa. I'm definitely doing the same
Speaker 1: school thing. But I don't care. I know I like it,
Speaker 1: I really do. He I think he led their team
Speaker 1: in receiving the last two years, and so that's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, And like is their go to guy, and
Speaker 1: you know, teams know that they're going to pass to him.
Speaker 1: He still produces. I think all those things are very
Speaker 1: um critical Um. He can move, he can do some
Speaker 1: option routes. He can block, and he can block a
Speaker 1: little too because he went to Iowa, and he can
Speaker 1: run after catch. He's really he's like one of those
Speaker 1: guys that just refuses to go down. You know, it
Speaker 1: is kittle lesque. Not to compare him necessarily up to Kittle,
Speaker 1: but um, you know he has that run off to catchability. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe I am a little bit too low, and I'm good,
Speaker 1: I'm convincing I do like him. I don't want to
Speaker 1: sound like I'm, you know, trying to tell you that
Speaker 1: I think he's not a very good player. I think
Speaker 1: he's really good. I think he's gonna be um, you know,
Speaker 1: the type of tight end that in the NFL gets
Speaker 1: into the NFL and becomes really famous because he's gonna
Speaker 1: catch a lot of passes. I was trying to think,
Speaker 1: who are the other Iowa tight ends, because yeah, because
Speaker 1: I think it was Greg co Sell I heard say
Speaker 1: something recently was like, you know, tight ends in terms
Speaker 1: of productions often the scheme you're in, and like he
Speaker 1: was calling out people that got a little too excited
Speaker 1: about Dalton Saltz, and maybe I was one of them.
Speaker 1: I ranked them very high in my tighten It's like
Speaker 1: he's in that offense, whoever's in that offense is gonna
Speaker 1: catch a lot of passes. And Sam Laport is sort
Speaker 1: of the opposite as George Kittles. I was trying to
Speaker 1: figure out who are the other Iowa tight Ends. It
Speaker 1: really weren't that, No no fan, okay, Dallas Clark also
Speaker 1: went to Iowa Dallas Clara Marv Cook, who was on
Speaker 1: the tight end New England, I mean the tech moble
Speaker 1: New England Patriots. I believe the original tech well Bill
Speaker 1: tight End for the Patriots. Marv Cook I also appeared.
Speaker 1: Who did you play with? Tech Mo ball Mark, Let's
Speaker 1: go around the room. But the team the original I'm
Speaker 1: not talking tech with super Bowl World enough. Maybe Danny's not. Well.
Speaker 1: I played with the Cleveland Browns and you have Kevin
Speaker 1: Mack just smashing through people left and right. Okay, that
Speaker 1: was actually a really fun team because they have Kevin
Speaker 1: mcan Eric Metcalf right, Well, the second one had metcalf
Speaker 1: and that was a sort of a bad Browns team
Speaker 1: that you could form into a good one if you
Speaker 1: had the skills that some of us had. Who would
Speaker 1: you play with, Danny? You're not as old as us,
Speaker 1: but you know I'm close. Um. I don't remember the
Speaker 1: actual players. I do think it was the Phil Simms
Speaker 1: Giant is the Giants? Was he on the Giants back
Speaker 1: in the day? Yeah? And they had a thing where, um,
Speaker 1: there was a cheat code where Lawrence Taylor um on
Speaker 1: special teams could literally block every single extra point. So
Speaker 1: if you got high scoring enough game, you'd have to
Speaker 1: get an extra touchdown on those Giants. I think I've
Speaker 1: played with the Giants all the time. I can't remember
Speaker 1: there's a really good running back on that team I'm
Speaker 1: blanking on. Maybe you guys remember I've been Otis Anderson.
Speaker 1: I think I think it was Otis. I think it
Speaker 1: was a lot of slants from Phil Simms. It was
Speaker 1: a lot of Lawrence Taylor wrecking shop. Any any other
Speaker 1: tight ends that excited you. I looked at a couple more.
Speaker 1: Luke Musgrave is not the type of guy that is
Speaker 1: gonna get me going in the morning. Um okay, you
Speaker 1: know like one of those tall like does he just
Speaker 1: looks like an injury waiting to happen. Like he's too
Speaker 1: he was injured his career too right, And he's too
Speaker 1: tall when you're when you're at tall, and he's not
Speaker 1: like great, a great mover after the catch or anything
Speaker 1: like that. He's gonna go down on contact. I know
Speaker 1: Greg Cosell loves him. Some Tucker Craft, who I really
Speaker 1: had heard of him till the last week or two.
Speaker 1: You have him branked pretty high. Any other hot tight
Speaker 1: end takes for you. I do like Tucker Craft. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, coming from a small school, he doesn't get
Speaker 1: a lot, he doesn't have a lot of hype, but
Speaker 1: he moves well. He's one of these big, broad shouldered,
Speaker 1: beefy fellows, you know, just the type of player to
Speaker 1: expect South Dakota State to play. Um Luke Shoonmaker from Michigan.
Speaker 1: I'm actually writing him up today. You know, he's a
Speaker 1: pretty athletic guy. He kind of writing me a cool cabet.
Speaker 1: Um oh, Dan, you have Musgrave twenty nine, So I
Speaker 1: just assassinated one of your first round picks. You got
Speaker 1: to defend him now. So he's literally seven minutes and
Speaker 1: it's just like I like, I like, don't like the
Speaker 1: type of player he is. You know, he's like best
Speaker 1: it's Mike Kasecki. You can't it's hard to watch his
Speaker 1: tape and be like really excited about it. But what
Speaker 1: you have to do is sort of project what he
Speaker 1: could be in the future. I think, because you know,
Speaker 1: he hasn't played for most he didn't certainly he played
Speaker 1: two games I think in twenty twenty two. Um, but
Speaker 1: you know, the athleticism, the burst, the movement skills, all
Speaker 1: that stuff. It's like, this is what we're projecting with
Speaker 1: all tight ends. But it seems worse than all the
Speaker 1: other guys. But maybe I'm wrong. That's just using my eyes.
Speaker 1: And like it's kind of like Brandon Jacobs. I always
Speaker 1: like Brandon Jacobs was awesome, but there was such a
Speaker 1: such an area where you could hit him that seems
Speaker 1: like keeps getting hurt, I think. But that's fair. Um,
Speaker 1: I want to give you some context about this tight
Speaker 1: end class though, Like it feels like you're picking knits
Speaker 1: on Musgrave. But like all these guys are just absolutely
Speaker 1: elite athletes. So Kentley Platt does the RA score, the
Speaker 1: RAS score, and this goes back to nineteen eighty seventies.
Speaker 1: It's basically at like a it's a score that spits out.
Speaker 1: He spits out a score based on like your athletic testing,
Speaker 1: in your size and all that. And out of one
Speaker 1: thousand ninety one tight ends, so's just over a thousand
Speaker 1: tight ends going back to nineteen eighty seven. Zach Coontz
Speaker 1: from Old Dominion is the first most athletic. He's the
Speaker 1: most athletic tight end ever. Darna Washington ranks fourteenth, Luke
Speaker 1: Shoemaker ranks sixteenth, Luke Musgrave ranks twenty sixth, Tucker Craft
Speaker 1: ranks thirty seventh, Samue Laporta ranks fifty seventh. And that
Speaker 1: doesn't even include Dalton Kincaid who didn't test, and Michael Mayer,
Speaker 1: who is an above average tight end. Like this is
Speaker 1: an absolutely freak show group of tight ends, Like they're
Speaker 1: all just insanely athletic. Like you know it, I just
Speaker 1: cannot wait to see. I think you alluded to it earlier.
Speaker 1: Landing spot is really going to matter, Like Grego Sale says,
Speaker 1: like a lot of the times, a tight end auction
Speaker 1: is a function of the offense and a function of
Speaker 1: the quarterback. And I believe that. I do think that's
Speaker 1: really true. So like if Luke Musgrave lands with the Cowboys,
Speaker 1: for instance, I'm gonna be extremely excited from a fantasy
Speaker 1: point of view, if he lands with a team that
Speaker 1: likes to rotate and have like three tight ends on
Speaker 1: the field at all times and really spread the ball around.
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna be avoiding that. But landing spots can
Speaker 1: be key with a lot of these guys, but I
Speaker 1: think the bottom line is they're just really, really, really
Speaker 1: good athletes at the tight end position. That's why so
Speaker 1: many people are excited about this draft class. And Zach
Speaker 1: Coons you mentioned from Old Dominion is six foot seven
Speaker 1: and had those incredible scores. So it's just another example
Speaker 1: of that. And I mean it seems like even with
Speaker 1: Kyle Pitts, it takes these NFL tight ends typically like
Speaker 1: till year three, if not maybe year two in some
Speaker 1: cases to flourish. I mean, it's just over and over
Speaker 1: and over. And I wonder if this is the class
Speaker 1: where we get because of fit, because of the way
Speaker 1: that tight ends are being used differently than in the past,
Speaker 1: Like we can reverse that trend and they can get
Speaker 1: some year one stars out of the gig that's been
Speaker 1: so atypical. I think we kin. Honestly, if you look
Speaker 1: back at what Pits did as a rookie, he I
Speaker 1: think he set the record for most receiving yards from
Speaker 1: for a rookie, or at least he was second to
Speaker 1: h too. I'm blanking on the name here. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: the very famous Dick Dickaway were you don't know Dicas First,
Speaker 1: I'm terrible. I'm terrible with names, Mike Dickau. Anyways, Yes,
Speaker 1: so I think we kind of forget that that cowle
Speaker 1: pits what over a thousand yards as a rookie. Even
Speaker 1: last year. Um, you know, Greg Dulcich looked pretty good
Speaker 1: for the Broncos at times when he was playing. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, we're I think we're starting to see tight
Speaker 1: ends get involved in the passing game a little bit
Speaker 1: earlier than you know, historically speaking has has been the case.
Speaker 1: And you know, offenses are changing, it's it's more spread out. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, teams are passing more generally speaking, and I
Speaker 1: think just as we get further further along, like teams
Speaker 1: a tight ends coming up through the ranks are more
Speaker 1: athletic and have run more routes throughout their careers, it's
Speaker 1: the same deal with all these receivers that are coming in.
Speaker 1: It's like you've been playing seven on seven since you're
Speaker 1: you know, six years old, and you're just more in
Speaker 1: tune with the passing game. So, um, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: there is something there that we could see these tight
Speaker 1: ends start to be a little bit more productive early
Speaker 1: on in their career. I actually heard an interesting note
Speaker 1: from Andy Staples this morning on the Athletic Podcast, and
Speaker 1: he was saying, with basketball kind of losing the like
Speaker 1: power forward position, as as like that sport evolves the
Speaker 1: power forward position where you got like six foot five,
Speaker 1: you know, two hundred and fifty two undred and sixty
Speaker 1: pound guys or whatever, they're starting to play football instead.
Speaker 1: They're starting to play tight ends. So we're like seeing
Speaker 1: more and more of these guys. I thought that was
Speaker 1: a really interesting point. I hadn't really thought about that way,
Speaker 1: but maybe there's something there too works out for us.
Speaker 1: I well, right, And I look at it with every
Speaker 1: sport like bigger, every big athlete now is the best
Speaker 1: big athlete in their sports history, like tennis players, Like
Speaker 1: big tennis players are so much more athletic than big
Speaker 1: tennis players used to be. It's certainly that way with
Speaker 1: basketball and Webin Yama and everything, and now we're seen
Speaker 1: it at like the big positions. Uh. I am a
Speaker 1: little concern and maybe this is more of like a
Speaker 1: next gen stats or analytics department type of thing. When
Speaker 1: you were listing off the names of the tight ends
Speaker 1: you named, there's a lot of Zachs, Luke's, Tyler's, Dalton's there.
Speaker 1: It all seems to be in like there a lot
Speaker 1: of Zacks and Lukes. So just just just something to
Speaker 1: watch out for you. Okay, Danny, you're you're the best. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have any other hot uh
Speaker 1: draft takes, but it's been a it's been a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you you on and if you do like
Speaker 1: you could just go out with some sort of mic
Speaker 1: drop here that we will then bring back up to
Speaker 1: you right after the draft or maybe after the two
Speaker 1: thousand and twenty three season. My favorite player in the
Speaker 1: draft is Devon a Chain running back out of Texas
Speaker 1: A and M who okayounds, I'm not saying he's the
Speaker 1: best player, he's my favorite player. UM. So I really
Speaker 1: hope he lands with the team that will use him
Speaker 1: and turn him into the next work done. That's all.
Speaker 1: Where and where do you think he might go? By
Speaker 1: the way, just like what's a very rough round uh approximation,
Speaker 1: probably late second, early third or or some some part
Speaker 1: some part in the like later part of day two.
Speaker 1: I think I like that because this is kind of
Speaker 1: spice rakish here. Um. He always would have a former
Speaker 1: and current. You know, hopefully soon we'll have him on
Speaker 1: on the show too. Spice Rack, he's gonna be mad
Speaker 1: when he hears this, and and uh he we'd always
Speaker 1: make him stick on. One player devon a chain is
Speaker 1: your guy. Yeah, I'm gonna think of Danny Kelly every
Speaker 1: time his name is brought up. And I'm gonna plays
Speaker 1: in the NFL. No, it's good because he's probably gonna
Speaker 1: be He's gonna be fun and good and if you
Speaker 1: nail this, the world is your oyster. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: thanks Danny, we'll see you. Thank you. All right, thanks guys.
Speaker 1: All right, we did it. Did we get smarter? I
Speaker 1: think so? We talked. I mean part of it was
Speaker 1: like to to even hold the conversation, we had to
Speaker 1: do a certain amount of work going in. Yeah, smarter
Speaker 1: from that and then got smarter from these two fellows. No,
Speaker 1: it is good. The more you put into it, the
Speaker 1: more you get out on Draft day two and maybe
Speaker 1: we're basic is here, but it's like it's more fun
Speaker 1: to talk about these skill position players. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: we are basics. If you've gotta like do some do
Speaker 1: some tape study and whatnot, isn't it more fun to watch.
Speaker 1: This doesn't mean we're interior alignment or guards or even
Speaker 1: defensive ends or cornerbacks. You really grind in that like
Speaker 1: the route tree tape that the cornerbacks are doing. Like
Speaker 1: I guess you can. You can look at the highlights,
Speaker 1: you can look at the target certain things. But it's easier, frankly,
Speaker 1: and more fun to do the wide receivers, running backs, quarterbacks. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think when your draft prep begins in you know,
Speaker 1: mid to late March, you've got to prioritize the fun spots.
Speaker 1: You're right. I feel bad for saying who on Devon
Speaker 1: Echen too, because he's a he's a day day two
Speaker 1: draft guy. I don't like that. He's sort of a
Speaker 1: rival in the Taje Spears is my favorite player of
Speaker 1: the draft. Uh, you know, kind of in that lane
Speaker 1: that's sort of running back. Um justin Hey, I want
Speaker 1: you to give us a grade for this this show.
Speaker 1: Uh B minus. Okay, that's very fair. I think that
Speaker 1: is uh that is more than fair and consistent with
Speaker 1: previous grading on this show. On Wednesday, I won't be here.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to be on the beach in Hawaii.
Speaker 1: Put in my air pods. And I'm probably not doing this,
Speaker 1: but I should put on the Chaos pod starring Mark
Speaker 1: Sessler and guests. Yeah, Patrick claybon Um told me this
Speaker 1: morning he's still in, so that's a win. And we're
Speaker 1: gonna confirm with Colleen and I think we're gonna try
Speaker 1: to cook up something spicy for you, Greg on that beach.
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I think that is going to drop
Speaker 1: on Thursday and we'll be back then with Mark and
Speaker 1: whatever he has cooking up. This was fun until then.
Speaker 1: Heed the call.