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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie,

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Speaker 1: Missing day thirty two Tonight the very latest in the

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Speaker 1: search for missus Guthrie. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. We

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Speaker 1: still believe an America Nancy Guthrie was forced out of

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Speaker 1: her own bed.

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Speaker 2: Eighty four years old, and you're pulled out of bed.

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Speaker 1: Forty one minutes in the home.

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Speaker 3: Every single contact needs a Tracy Fibers fingerprints DNA.

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Speaker 4: You don't see any blood pools. That gives me hope

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Speaker 4: that this person is alive.

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Speaker 3: This criminal did mess up somewhere and they will be caught.

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Speaker 1: We still believe that she.

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Speaker 5: Can come home.

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Speaker 1: Have you been able to identify the car that drove

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Speaker 1: past at two thirty six am? No, but you are

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Speaker 1: looking to identify it.

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Speaker 4: We're looking at that as well as hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 4: of other vehicles that we're out driving that time of day.

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Speaker 1: Is this really something we should be looking at? Look?

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Speaker 4: What I would tell you is this we're aware of

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Speaker 4: it and we're looking into it just like any other

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Speaker 4: piece of evidence.

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Speaker 6: This is Sheriff Nanos from our friends at the Today.

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Speaker 1: Show Straight Out to Crime Stories investigator Dave Matt Dave,

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Speaker 1: what happened Nancy.

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Speaker 2: There are a number of things that have really transpired

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Speaker 2: in the last twenty four hours or so about the

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Speaker 2: case in general. Former FBI investigator has come out and

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Speaker 2: said this case is nowhere close to cold. It's a

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Speaker 2: red hot case. She actually explains Jennifer Coffendeffer explains how

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Speaker 2: there are so many things happening with the case right now.

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Speaker 2: Some people have looked at the move from Tucson to

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Speaker 2: Phoenix by the FBI as a negative as the case

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Speaker 2: is cooling off, and it's actually the opposite. There is

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Speaker 2: so much video evidence that has to be called through.

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Speaker 2: We're talking five ten thousand pieces of video that have

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Speaker 2: to be gone through at this point. There are there's

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Speaker 2: still DNA you know, that has to be collected. Even

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Speaker 2: there's a lot going on in this case. It is

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Speaker 2: nothing close to a cold case. Now there are some

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Speaker 2: other things happening too. We've got the vehicle that has

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Speaker 2: been filmed on the ring camera at two thirty six am,

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Speaker 2: eight minutes after it is believed that Nancy Guthrie was

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Speaker 2: taken from her home. Now, at first the FBI said, no,

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Speaker 2: that has nothing to do with the case. A couple

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Speaker 2: of days later, Yeah, it has everything to do with

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Speaker 2: the case. Now investigators are trying to identify what type

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Speaker 2: of car it is, and they're really digging in. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of information they've found, such as the car

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Speaker 2: has a sloped back, it has odd rear brake lights,

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Speaker 2: and things like that.

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Speaker 6: So that case, that.

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Speaker 2: Part of the case than rather, is really being looked

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Speaker 2: at in a big way by investigators.

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Speaker 7: The backpack.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've talked about the backpack scene on the

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Speaker 2: video on the front porch at length. We know that

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Speaker 2: the backpack is sold exclusively brand new at Walmart, and

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Speaker 2: the backpack does appear to be a relatively new backpack,

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Speaker 2: the backpack scene on the alleged kidnapper suspected kidnapper.

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Speaker 6: Nanos Sheriff Nanos was.

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Speaker 2: Going on a tear about this the other day, talking

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Speaker 2: about how backpack might not have been sold at Walmart.

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Speaker 2: You know, the backpack could have been bought by somebody

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Speaker 2: who then sold it on eBay. I mean, which, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's a possibility.

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Speaker 6: It could have been bought anywhere.

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Speaker 2: But still we are looking at items such as the

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Speaker 2: backpack as well as if you remember, remember the holster

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Speaker 2: that's hanging down just below the waistline. We know that

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Speaker 2: that particular holster only sold at Walmart. That backpack those

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Speaker 2: are backpack exclusively sold brand new at Walmart, So there

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Speaker 2: are some links there, but Nanos wanted to point out

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Speaker 2: not necessarily where it might have come from.

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Speaker 6: But you know, Sheriff.

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Speaker 2: Nanos did say he believes he believes we're very close

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Speaker 2: to finding the suspect in this case. And finally Annie

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Speaker 2: Guthrie's car. Looks like law enforcement will be returning Annie

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Speaker 2: Guthries's car to her in the next few days.

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Speaker 1: Susannah Ryan joining US LAB director, forensic DNA analyst at

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Speaker 1: Pure Gold Forensics, and forensic DNA consultant at Ryan Forensics.

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Speaker 1: Susanna Ryan, what do you make of that?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 8: Well, I can't say exactly why they've held it so long,

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Speaker 8: but certainly any vehicle they get, they're going to be

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Speaker 8: looking for lots of different forensic evidence, and you know

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Speaker 8: that could be latent, Prince, it could be trace evidence,

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Speaker 8: could be DNA, but as you said, of course, with

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Speaker 8: this particular vehicle, it would not be surprising at all.

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Speaker 8: Of course, see Nancy Guthrie's DNA.

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Speaker 1: In the vehicle.

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Speaker 8: We know that she has ridden in the vehicle. This

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Speaker 8: is her relative, her relatives vehicle, so it would not

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Speaker 8: be surprising to see her DNA pretty much anywhere in

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Speaker 8: that car. What might be surprising is if we start

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Speaker 8: seeing blood. If there's blood maybe in the back seat

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Speaker 8: of the vehicle, if there's blood in the trunk of

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Speaker 8: the vehicle, if there's blood that has been transferred somehow

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Speaker 8: to let's say the driver's side floor mat, or the

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Speaker 8: gas pedal or the brake pedal somewhere, that it's a

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Speaker 8: lot more difficult to explain why someone's blood or DNA

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Speaker 8: might be present. So I think that that's probably one

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Speaker 8: of the things they were looking for. Again, I'm sure

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Speaker 8: there's other digital forensic type of evidence and trace evidence

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Speaker 8: things like that, but it does sound like at this

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Speaker 8: point they've completed that testing.

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Speaker 1: Susanna, A lot is being made of DNA tonight. What

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Speaker 1: do you make of it? And where do we stand

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Speaker 1: right now?

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Speaker 8: You know, it would not be surprising to me at

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Speaker 8: all that there are multiple contributors to some of these

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Speaker 8: samples collected from the home. Right, So we're talking now

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Speaker 8: about skin cell DNA often called touch DNA, so DNA

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Speaker 8: that is transferred just by someone coming into contact with

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Speaker 8: an item of evidence. Just because one person has touched

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Speaker 8: it doesn't mean that multiple other people have not touched

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Speaker 8: the same item. You know, if we're talking about a

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Speaker 8: doorknob something like that, where anyone who touches that has

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Speaker 8: the chance of transferring not only their own DNA but

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Speaker 8: whatever else happened to be on their hands at the time.

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Speaker 8: We're constantly picking up DNA everything that we come into

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Speaker 8: contact with, we have the chance of picking up other

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Speaker 8: people's DNA from those contacts, and then we can further

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Speaker 8: transfer that DNA. So a lot of times when we

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Speaker 8: talk about these sort of transfer or touch DNA samples,

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Speaker 8: we're talking about multiple individuals. And the thing is, there's

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Speaker 8: no way to separate those different components of DNA prior

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Speaker 8: to going through the analysis process, right, we can't.

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Speaker 1: I wish we could.

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Speaker 8: I wish we could like target and say, okay, we

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Speaker 8: just want this person's DNA. We're only looking for the

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Speaker 8: male DNA or you know, something like that, and we

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Speaker 8: really can't. Short of you know, if we have a

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Speaker 8: sexual assault case, you can separate out sperm cell versus

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Speaker 8: epithelia cell DNA, but otherwise you can't whatever is on

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Speaker 8: that sample when you start the analysis process and you

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Speaker 8: break open all of the cells and then you just

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Speaker 8: kind of have this you know, alphabet soup of DNA

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Speaker 8: that is present, and then you move forward with it.

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Speaker 8: You get a DNA profile, and whether it's a mixture,

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Speaker 8: whether it's single source, great, but usually it's a mixture two, three, four,

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Speaker 8: maybe even more people. And so at that point it

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Speaker 8: becomes you know, there's no way to isolate out one

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Speaker 8: person's DNA unless they're a clear major contributor. There's more

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Speaker 8: of one person's DNA to anybody else's. But otherwise that's

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Speaker 8: why mixtures are so difficult, and that's why they're having

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Speaker 8: difficulties in this case because they're probably low level, maybe

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Speaker 8: not even complete profiles with multiple contributors. That's basically the

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Speaker 8: worst type of sample to try to work with.

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Speaker 1: Where is Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother still missing and

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Speaker 1: the scene is shambolic. A pizza guy, a pizza guy

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Speaker 1: drives right up to the house the crime scene and

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Speaker 1: goes up to the door to deliver pizza in the

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Speaker 1: midst of this investigation, why is it still not blocked off?

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Speaker 1: If and when this case ever does go to trial,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be hell to pay h e double

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Speaker 1: l hell to pay on ice skates. Because you've got

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Speaker 1: a pool cleaning team coming through, you have pizza delivery.

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Speaker 1: You've got people sneaking up to the front porch taking

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Speaker 1: pictures of Nancy Guthrie's blood. For peep's sake, I would

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Speaker 1: flip if someone was taking pictures of my mom's blood

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Speaker 1: on the front porch. You've got the first team coming in. Failing,

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Speaker 1: you've got the FBI finally joining in after being blocked

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Speaker 1: by nanos, they come in. You know what this means, evidentiarily,

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Speaker 1: is that every single person that went into that scene

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Speaker 1: is going to have to be ruled out of DNA.

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Speaker 1: Straight to Dave Mac joining us Crime Stories investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: Dave Mac, who is getting swabbed.

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Speaker 2: You know Nancy, We know that missus Guthrie has a

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Speaker 2: lot of help around the house because she is living

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Speaker 2: on her own. She is mentally very you know, she's

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Speaker 2: perfect there. But I'm going to assume, based on an

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Speaker 2: eighty four year old woman living on her own with

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Speaker 2: physical medical issues that there is help coming by to

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Speaker 2: check on her. One thing. We do know she has

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Speaker 2: a pool person that takes care of the swimming pool.

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Speaker 6: We do know she.

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Speaker 2: Has landscape yuarding yard people who do the gardening and

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Speaker 2: keep it trimmed up. We also know she has a

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Speaker 2: housekeeper that comes by and cleans inside the house. So

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Speaker 2: all of those people are considered just outside the inner circle. Esemployees,

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Speaker 2: people who show up every week on a regular basis

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Speaker 2: and know that house and know all the inner workings

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Speaker 2: of the house.

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Speaker 1: We're getting to the DNA found in her home. We

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Speaker 1: do know it is Nancy Guthrie's DNA.

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Speaker 7: However, it's her home, of course.

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Speaker 1: Her DNA is there. That DNA significant because it leads

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Speaker 1: law enforcement to state that she has been abducted. When asked,

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Speaker 1: is abducted to strong over a word to use, The

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Speaker 1: Pima County Sheriff says, no. She was dragged out off

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Speaker 1: her home. This eighty four year old grandma in the night.

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Speaker 5: Our mom was taken in the dark of night from

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Speaker 5: her bed. In every hour and minute and second and

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Speaker 5: every long night has been agony since then.

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Speaker 7: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: There has been a lot of speculation that it's actually

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Speaker 1: victim blaming that Nancy Guthrie went to the front door

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Speaker 1: and allowed her kidnapper to come in. Nothing could be

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Speaker 1: further from the truth, Dave. We now know that in

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Speaker 1: those critical forty one minutes, forty one minutes, at least

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Speaker 1: one purp was in Nancy Guthrie's home, and this is

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Speaker 1: an important fact and it can prove something. It's privative.

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Speaker 1: We now know that Nancy Guthrie was forced out of

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Speaker 1: her own bed, lying there asleep around two o'clock in

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Speaker 1: the morning, an eighty four year old woman.

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Speaker 7: What do we know.

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Speaker 2: We know that when Savannah Guthrie posted the video, it

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Speaker 2: was so shocking that a lot of kill missed what

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Speaker 2: she said.

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Speaker 4: She said that.

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Speaker 2: Her mother was taken from her bed in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the night. That tells us everything that we originally

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Speaker 2: thought that the intruder or intruders came into the home,

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Speaker 2: snuck into her room, awakened her out of a dead sleep,

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Speaker 2: and took this eighty four year old grandmother out of

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Speaker 2: her own bed. What it does also tell us, Nancy,

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Speaker 2: is that we might have forensic evidence left behind on

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Speaker 2: the bed in the bedroom, on the floor, on the nightstand.

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Speaker 2: There's no any wonder of places where our kidnapper or

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Speaker 2: kidnappers could have touched, dropped, felt, anything, but again taken

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Speaker 2: out of her bedroom. Think about that for a minute.

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Speaker 2: Eighty four years old and you're pulled out of bed.

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Speaker 2: It's not an easy.

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Speaker 7: Trip joining us.

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Speaker 1: Misty gillis DNA expert investigative genetic genealogist at Purabon Nanolabs.

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Speaker 1: This is one of their specialties. At Pirabon. They focus

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Speaker 1: on very difficult cases like a minuscule amount of DNA,

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Speaker 1: degraded DNA, a mixture of DNA. When you are, Missy,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. When you hear the

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Speaker 1: latest that Nancy was taken out off her bed forcibly taken.

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Speaker 1: What DNA possibilities does that open up in your mind?

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Speaker 9: What opens up the possibility of there being traced amounts

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Speaker 9: of DNA found in that bedroom area like it was said,

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Speaker 9: Possibly it was a nightstand that was touched. Possibly the

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Speaker 9: forcible removal of Nancy had left priest DNA in that

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Speaker 9: bedroom area. There must be a musing investigators are exactly

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Speaker 9: seeing that it was the bedroom she was taken from,

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Speaker 9: versus answering her door.

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Speaker 1: You know. I'm thinking through what we know now, what

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Speaker 1: did the perp do in those critical forty one minutes.

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Speaker 1: First of all, we know he got in, We see

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Speaker 1: him coming in the front door. We know that when

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Speaker 1: he left the door remained unlocked. We don't know if

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Speaker 1: it was locked when he entered. When you think and

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Speaker 1: try to retrace what the perp did upon entering Nancy

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Speaker 1: Guthrie's home, I want to focus on getting evidence. For instance,

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Speaker 1: if Nancy Guthrie had hardwood or carpet, tablecloths or no

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Speaker 1: table cloths, chats, key sitting or around little items and

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Speaker 1: figurines or none, a dog, a cat or no dog

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Speaker 1: or cat, all of these things equal evidence. Explain, Misty,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna want to look at those most more porous samples.

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Speaker 9: There's a device called an MBACK that's essentially a wet

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Speaker 9: vacuum that will pull DNA and forensic evidence from those

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Speaker 9: porous surfaces. So if there was something like carpeted flooring

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Speaker 9: and he wasn't wearing booties, he say had touched the carpet,

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Speaker 9: touched the bedding, touched to the pillow, that ENDBAC could

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Speaker 9: pull that DNA evidence from that porous surface. When it

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Speaker 9: gets to more non poor surfaces like hardwood and things

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Speaker 9: like that, Prady's evidence can still be.

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Speaker 1: Okay, sometimes just a second misty, if you don't mind,

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Speaker 1: I want to make sure I understand everything that you

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Speaker 1: just said. And that was a lot you were talking

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Speaker 1: about the betting. Okay, Now, now you've gotten past the door.

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Speaker 1: If her door was closed, then he touched the doorknob.

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Speaker 1: He very likely turned on the light switch. He may

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Speaker 1: have touched the bed frame itself or her bedside table.

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Speaker 1: He may have touched her cell phone, which we understand

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Speaker 1: was near her bedside that was left behind. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: we've gotten past that, and I'll circle back to carpet, hardwood, pet,

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Speaker 1: no pet, chopsky figurine sitting around or none. I want

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Speaker 1: to circle back to that. You've taken me to straight

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Speaker 1: to the bedroom.

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Speaker 9: So walking in the door, there could be carpet on

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Speaker 9: the ground. There could be hard ward flooring. If there's carpet,

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Speaker 9: that's a porous sample that could an ENDBAC could be

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Speaker 9: used on to collect DNA from. There could be a

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Speaker 9: touch on a light switch. There could be a touch

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Speaker 9: on a table. There could be objects of their touch

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Speaker 9: that could be swabbed for that trace DNA. Now as

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Speaker 9: he makes his way through the house, there could be

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Speaker 9: multiple touch points. There could be a railing on the stairs,

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Speaker 9: there could be a wall that could be touched. Those

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Speaker 9: are surfaces that could be swabbed for that trace DNA

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Speaker 9: as well. And then once he enters the bedroom again

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Speaker 9: we have things like light switches, we have a nightstand,

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Speaker 9: we have the possible headboard. If he did physically remove

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Speaker 9: her from the bed, there could be DNA that's left

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Speaker 9: on that bedding, on those pillowcases, on her cell phone

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Speaker 9: that perhaps was on the night stand. These are all

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Speaker 9: areas that need to be looked at for that trace DNA.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring in Jeffrey Gentry joining US forensic

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Speaker 1: certified Bloodstained pattern Analyst, Senior crime scene analyst and death investigator.

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Speaker 1: Jeff Thank you for being with us, Jeff. When they

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Speaker 1: first told me that her DNA, Nancy's DNA was found

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Speaker 1: in the home, I was like, well, of course her

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Speaker 1: DNA's in the home, she lives there, But how does

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Speaker 1: that tell you the sheriff that she was abducted? Looking

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Speaker 1: at the blood pattern that we see, Jeffrey Gentry, that

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Speaker 1: gives me hope that she is alive.

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Speaker 4: Of course, any blood of a crime scene is always concerning.

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Speaker 4: It is a tremendous mines evidence that's in the blood.

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Speaker 4: Not only can I tell you events that happen, but

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Speaker 4: then of course you have the possibility to get DNA.

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Speaker 4: But when I look at these blood patterns, I'm not

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Speaker 4: overly concerned. These are passive blood drops. They are drip

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Speaker 4: stains a little bit of a drip trail, and then

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Speaker 4: there's a blood into blood pattern. A blood into blood

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Speaker 4: pattern is when blood is dripping from height into a

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Speaker 4: blood source and it creates that neat little pattern of

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Speaker 4: drip stains with the little satellite spatter around it. So

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Speaker 4: this would indicate one that this is not a major injury.

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Speaker 4: Somebody of that age can get skin tears very easily

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Speaker 4: in their arms on their hands, and those are going

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Speaker 4: to bleed quite a bit. But it also indicates that

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Speaker 4: this person is upright. They are stationary for some period

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Speaker 4: of time. But then there's also movement as well with

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Speaker 4: the drip trail. So nothing that I'm seeing would indicate

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Speaker 4: that one this person has a traumatic injury like a

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Speaker 4: gunshot wound or a stab wound. You don't see impact spatter.

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Speaker 4: These are all large volume stains that are going straight down,

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Speaker 4: indicating that person was either walking or stationary. But they're

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Speaker 4: upright joining me.

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Speaker 1: Right now is a DNA specialist. It is Susanna Ryan

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Speaker 1: out of Redlands, California, Lab, director of forensic DNA analyst

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Speaker 1: at Pure Gold Forensics. I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about how DNA is obtained at a scene, for instance,

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Speaker 1: through UV lighting causing the DNA. Well, does it cause

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Speaker 1: a DNA to fluoresce? But when you look at DNA

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Speaker 1: left on a scene, it fluoresces. And you need near

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Speaker 1: dark or complete dark where you could use goggles that

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Speaker 1: are tinted red, yellow, or orange to block out light.

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Speaker 1: How does that work?

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Speaker 8: Right? So what you're referring to is sometimes we use

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Speaker 8: something called an alternate light source, and that helps us

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Speaker 8: identify things like saliva. Those sort of body fluids will fluoresce. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 8: other types of DNA, especially touch or skin cell DNA,

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Speaker 8: does not fluoress. I wish it did. I wish there

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Speaker 8: was a way for us to be able to just

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Speaker 8: see it by some invention like that. But what we

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Speaker 8: have to do is use our best educated guests as

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Speaker 8: to what would have been contacted. Where did this person

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Speaker 8: have to touch to enter the house? For example, is

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Speaker 8: there anything moved in the home that it looks like

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Speaker 8: this person contacted? And I would imagine that they are

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Speaker 8: focusing on items like that, especially as you pointed out,

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Speaker 8: with him touching this perpetrator, he's got a flashlight in

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Speaker 8: his mouth that he's moving around that he's probably touching.

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Speaker 8: So even though he's wearing gloves, that does not mean

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Speaker 8: he's not transferring his DNA into that house.

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Speaker 1: And saliva is so DNA rich. He touches it, yes,

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Speaker 1: multiple times. He touches the holster of the gun multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Then he reaches out to the doorknob. And we were

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Speaker 1: discussing Susannah Howe, the home was found with the front

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Speaker 1: door unlocked and all the lights on in the front

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Speaker 1: of the house, which is not Nancy Guthrie's routine. He

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Speaker 1: turned on the light switch. He probably turned on the

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Speaker 1: light switch in Nancy's room or touched her doorknob, which

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Speaker 1: would be an excellent conduit for saliva DNA. It just

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Speaker 1: takes a trace amount. So I guess you're saying that

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Speaker 1: with certain DNA such as saliva sperm you're in you

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Speaker 1: would use the alternate light source, but for touch DNA

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Speaker 1: it does not fluoresce, so you would swab the likely

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Speaker 1: suspects the doorknob, light switch, furniture, something that's been moved

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Speaker 1: in the home. Do I have it so far, yes,

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Speaker 1: Dave Mac with me. Crime Story's investigative reporter Dave Mac

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Speaker 1: explained about the two gloves found a little over a

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Speaker 1: mile in Nancy Guthrie's own neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Law enforcement walked along the sides of the road looking

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Speaker 2: through brush and rocks about a mile and a half

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Speaker 2: from Nancy Guthrie's home. A mile and a half from

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Speaker 2: her home, on the side of the road in some brush,

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Speaker 2: first blood was found. Second glove found nearby in similar situation,

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Speaker 2: like it was just tossed out of a car driving

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Speaker 2: on the road.

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Speaker 1: We were showing you. It's for our friends at Fox News.

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Speaker 1: I want to see the day shot and I want

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Speaker 1: to show that to all of our guests. This is

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Speaker 1: also from our friends at Fox News. Straight out to

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Speaker 1: Nima Romani joining me, former federal prosecutor turned trial attorney. Nima,

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Speaker 1: I like this shot because you can see them going

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Speaker 1: in couples in daylight, and you can see exactly where

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Speaker 1: they're looking. They're kicking, literally beating the bushes along a roadside.

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Speaker 1: There were, as Dave Max said, scores of them out

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Speaker 1: in pairs, looking all up and down the roadways and Estrata, Sorata,

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Speaker 1: Tucson and Campbell and beyond. Then suddenly, at the same

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Speaker 1: time they find not one, but two black gloves, highly

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Speaker 1: similar to the ones worn by the intruder, the kidnapper.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if they got a tip, Nima, that someone

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Speaker 1: saw someone throw something out of a window. They don't

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Speaker 1: know what roadway, but they're looking all the roadways see that.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of it, Nima, There is no

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Speaker 1: coincidence in criminal law.

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Speaker 10: No, And we know Nancy that they've received thousands of tips,

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Speaker 10: some of them of course uncorroborated, but they have to

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Speaker 10: chase these down. And the fact that they're there searching

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Speaker 10: that area, you're right, likely means they receive a tip.

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Speaker 10: And the gloves, they are also very important. Obviously, you

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Speaker 10: can get DNA from a gloves.

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Speaker 3: You can even get free So the FBI.

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Speaker 10: Is involved, going to be sent to the best prime

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Speaker 10: lab there is and hopefully they can get something off

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Speaker 10: this glove and even if it's not DNA in the database.

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Speaker 11: You know Nancy better than anyone. With today's familial DNA searches,

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Speaker 11: you can find people based on their family members. So

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Speaker 11: if there's anything on these gloves, this the evidence that

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Speaker 11: breaks the case wide open.

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Speaker 1: We learn that there is DNA that has been recovered

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Speaker 1: inside Nancy Guthrie's home and seemingly it said that there's

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Speaker 1: another glove in their Dave Matt, what did we learn?

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Speaker 2: Learned that inside the home Nancy multiple gloves, plural gloves

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Speaker 2: were found inside the home. You know, we've been talking

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Speaker 2: about the glove that was found outside during the search

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Speaker 2: about a mile and a half from Nancy's home, But

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Speaker 2: we're finding out that gloves plural were found inside the

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Speaker 2: home and were apparently shipped to Florida or analysis.

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Speaker 1: Tammy Baller joining US DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene

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Speaker 1: investigation and reconstruction expert. What other DNA or evidence, fiber

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Speaker 1: evidence could be found in the home of Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 12: Yes, fiber evidence that's different, a little tougher to come by,

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Speaker 12: but hopefully something is very well processed. But also fingerprint

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Speaker 12: evidence is a big one. Hopefully they did a lot

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Speaker 12: of fingerprint evidence potentially. I know there are gloves involved,

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Speaker 12: the big one I would be looking for, as well

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Speaker 12: as the blood source that's on the front porch. Does

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Speaker 12: that start and begin in the household? And if so,

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Speaker 12: was Nancy able to fight back? Do we have two bleeders?

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Speaker 12: So you can't take any of that blood for granted.

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Speaker 12: You've got to look at blood stained patterns and see

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Speaker 12: if there's some outlier that actually could be from the perpetrator.

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Speaker 12: Maybe she was able to fight back pretty well. You

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Speaker 12: just don't know, and you can't take anything for granted.

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Speaker 12: So it's basically a process everything and collect everything that

435
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 12: could be a potential to Scott.

436
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: Iiker, joining US digital forensics expert formerly with the FBI.

437
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: What do you make of it? You were also a

438
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 1: homicide detective. What else do you believe they found in

439
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: the home? Touch, DNA, maybe fiber a hair. All it

440
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: takes is one hair?

441
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 13: One I agree hopefully they process that house very well.

442
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 13: But you got to remember when they first went there,

443
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 13: it's a missing person, and then later on it turned

444
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 13: out to be okay, this could be a kidnapping with

445
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 13: ransom and now the video. So initially the police departments

446
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 13: in there walking through the house, you know, looking in

447
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 13: the basement and the attic, in the every room and

448
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 13: making sure she's just not there again with the property

449
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 13: doing the same thing. So you got to remember, I

450
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 13: think we were talking about this DNA. The FBI was

451
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 13: called in a little bit later, a day or two

452
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 13: later to try to help, or the FBI came to

453
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 13: ask if they could help. So at that time maybe

454
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 13: the sheriff's department was on their own saying, hey, we

455
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 13: should probably take this glove that we found in the

456
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 13: house and send it to the lab. Even if we

457
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 13: do get some DNA and it's put into CODIS, we're

458
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 13: not sure if he's going to match anybody that's known.

459
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: In the Golden Gate killer case, Joseph DeAngelo, one of

460
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: the first of its kind familial DNA genealogy DNA. Hey,

461
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: that video we were just showing you is from twelve News,

462
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: So that's a possibility. If the PARP doesn't have a record,

463
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: he may not show up in CODIS. But if he

464
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: has a brother, a cousin, a father, a son, incut

465
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: with a record, we're going to get a match. It

466
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: won't be full, Matt, but then we'll be onto something

467
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: that doesn't work, We'll go to genetic genealogy familial DNA,

468
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: which has been approved to practically every jurisdiction. To Dave

469
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, d NA tell me.

470
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 6: Everything DNA found at Nancy Guthrie's home has been determined

471
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 6: to belong to someone not in close contact with Nancy Guthrie.

472
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 4: This is explosive.

473
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 6: Information as it's the first indicator we have that DNA

474
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 6: belonging to someone not related, not in close contact with Nancy,

475
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 6: found at the home Nancy. We also have the glove,

476
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 6: the glove found about a mile and a half from

477
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 6: Nancy's home, That too is being tested, and that too

478
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 6: has mail DNA. The glove with the DNA looks like

479
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 6: what the glove we saw in the surveillance video from

480
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 6: the nest camera on Nancy Guthrie's front door. That glove

481
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 6: that we saw in that video is what appears to

482
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 6: be the glove found in the desert a mile and

483
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 6: a half from her home with male DNA. So those

484
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 6: are your two big DNA explosions right now in the investigation.

485
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: That's right, the glove found near Nancy Guthrie's home about

486
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: one point five miles from her home does contain DNA evidence.

487
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: All those so called experts claiming it would not contain

488
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: DNA are wrong. Also, the glove found with DNA evidence

489
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: on it appears to be what the suspect in the

490
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: video was wearing. According to the FBI, the black glove

491
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: found near Nancy Guthrie's home contains DNA evidence and it

492
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: is being tested. We could be hours away from that

493
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: DNA match. And again, the FBI says the glove appears

494
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: to match the gloves worn by the suspect on Nancy

495
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: Guthrie's porch. This guy, we're showing you right now, the

496
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: one with the DNA profile recovered, is different from other gloves.

497
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: What does that mean that it is different from other gloves?

498
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: Dave mac What other gloves?

499
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: Nancy?

500
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 6: There have been reportedly sixteen other gloves, maybe even more,

501
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 6: that have been found in this investigation. But Nancy, the

502
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 6: sixteen gloves that have been found range in different colors,

503
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 6: from red to brown to black. They range in the

504
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 6: different types of gloves that are available.

505
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard, this is a bombshell. If these aren't the

506
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: gloves worn in the video. Let's see the video again,

507
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: and according to police sources the part was wearing gloves.

508
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: Under the gloves, we don't know that that's true. Whatever

509
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: the case, DNA has been found on these gloves, Tammy Ballard,

510
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: and it is mail DNA.

511
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 12: What comes next next is the code is search and

512
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 12: then they'll know if they have some sort of direction

513
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 12: to go with that search, if they're a hit. If not,

514
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 12: the next step would intuitively be can we start with

515
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 12: the genealogy process and go down that path with a

516
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 12: different DNA profile from the same gloves. So hopefully it

517
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 12: was a single source enough profile that and there's DNA

518
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 12: remaining so that they might have to be able to

519
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 12: share that DNA with that second process for genealogy, but

520
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 12: it can be a multi pronged approach to identify the

521
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 12: individual as fast as possible.

522
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: Jimmy Baller, what is an st R analysis?

523
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 12: That is what I would consider your standard DNA testing

524
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,239
Speaker 12: most forensic laboratories across the country. That is what we

525
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 12: have all used. It stands for short tandem repeat testing,

526
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 12: very distinct, regulated validated locations of DNA that are being

527
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 12: tested for potential comparison to suspects or uploads into databases.

528
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: Okay, then we will take the str results and put

529
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: it into CODIS. CODA is the combined DNA index System

530
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 1: and acronism. CODIS is FBI managed its software and it

531
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: operates on local, state, and national DNA databases. It IDs

532
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: suspects and they do that by comparing convicted offenders, not

533
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: necessarily just felons, misdemeanors, sometimes two, all of them across

534
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: the country, missing people, and DNA found on crime scenes.

535
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: Coburger Brian Coburger's DNA is now in CODIS. Now here's

536
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: the problem with COTIS and CODIS is fantastic. It matches

537
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: DNA profiles even from unsolved cases to individuals and other

538
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: crime scenes. It also uses the twenty core short tandem

539
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: repeat genetic markers. Here's the thing. Only people, the only

540
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: people in CODIS, generally speaking, are convicts. So if the

541
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: purp is not already convicted, then once you put the

542
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: DNA into CODIS, you may not get an identical match,

543
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 1: but you may get an eh match, which would mean

544
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: the purp is related to the person in CODIS. It

545
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: could be a brother, a cousin, a dad, a son,

546
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 1: a nephew, a distant nephew, a distant cousin, you'll get

547
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: a quasi match tammy ballor DNA expert. Isn't that true?

548
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 12: Yes, it is going to be a different kind of

549
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 12: search in the CODIS database. But first and foremost you're

550
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 12: going to be comparing that traditional str profile from this

551
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 12: unknown male to convicted offenders who's in this database, but

552
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 12: also other forensic unknown cases, So samples from other cases

553
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 12: that may have identified a potential perpetrator could also be

554
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 12: related to this case.

555
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 7: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

556
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: If Nancy Guthrie is still alive, which many of us

557
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: believe she is, especially if the kidnapper is somehow close

558
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: to her inner circle and knows them. Would the perp

559
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: kill Nancy knowing her family, knowing those close to her. Tonight,

560
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: a lot happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie. This

561
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: as the police, FBI, law enforcement rise from the ashes

562
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: of a gut punch that the DNA in the glove

563
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: found about a mile and a half away from Nancy's home,

564
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: does not get a hit in CODIS, the National DNA Depository,

565
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: It's not over yet. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan

566
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: joining US Professor Forensicks, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

567
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon Joscott, I want to talk

568
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: to you about why is everyone whining, carrying on like

569
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: it's the end of the world that we didn't get

570
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: a hit on codi's first try. Cases always have setbacks.

571
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: What is next DNA wi'se Joseph Scott Morgan.

572
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 14: For me, Nancy, it has been and shall ever be

573
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 14: investigative genetic genealogy with this. And here's the thing. I

574
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 14: don't want them to blister through the sample that they have.

575
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 14: Whatever these samples are, they have to be conservative with

576
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 14: them because you can have samples that you acquire at

577
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 14: seems you don't want to do anything that is going

578
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 14: to waste the samples that you have. So the idea

579
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 14: is you have to get enough of the DNA material

580
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 14: to a lab that can do investigative genetic genealogy where

581
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 14: they can plug this in, create a family tree, hopefully

582
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 14: through open source DNA, and create this profile where maybe

583
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 14: you can find who this individual might be related to.

584
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 14: Cotis is not a magic bullet, Nancy. Not every person

585
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 14: in the US is in the CODAS system, And you

586
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 14: know the idea that this person would be I think

587
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 14: that they're thinking, and they have to They have to

588
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 14: entertain this thought. From an investigative standpoint. This individual has

589
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 14: had interaction with the system before that would compel the

590
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 14: system to take their sample and put it in. That

591
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 14: doesn't necessarily always happen. This might be this person's first time.

592
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 14: And I got to tell you, looking at some of

593
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 14: the things I've seen on these images, this guy's an amateur,

594
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 14: all right, So it doesn't surprise me. They didn't get

595
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 14: a hit on codis.

596
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: Dave mac how many more times can we say it?

597
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: The DNA on the random glove found about one point

598
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: five miles away from Nancy Guthrie's thrown to the side

599
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: of the street did not get a CODAS hit. That's

600
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: the combined DNA Data Bank, the National Data Bank, correct, right.

601
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 14: It did not.

602
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 6: It did not get a CODAS hit.

603
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: You're correct, okay, which means you know, if you follow

604
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: that through, the DNA in the home was not connected

605
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: to that glove and the d the DNA and a

606
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: home did not get a CODAS hit. Is that correct?

607
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 6: That is correct.

608
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: It's not all of it, but it's correct.

609
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: Okay. What do you mean by not all of it?

610
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: Well, there was also a partial DNA collected inside of

611
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 2: the home. That partial DNA was sent to the Florida lab,

612
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: just like the DNA found on the glove and in

613
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: the other end, the other DNA found in the house.

614
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: The difference here is that it is a partial DNA

615
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: profile and they have yet to the people in Florida

616
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: at the lab have yet to to develop it out

617
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 2: where it could be checked in CODIS. So that partial

618
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: DNA that they've developed from inside the home has not

619
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: yet been subjected to a coda's hit because it is

620
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: a partial DNA.

621
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: Dave mac You're right, and I appreciate the way you

622
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: said that, because some reporters have stated there was a

623
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: partial DNA profile and it didn't get a hit at COTIS.

624
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: The reality is CODIS is a national data bank. It's

625
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: very very strict on what DNA profiles, what DNA it

626
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: will even accept to enter into the data bank, unlike

627
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: the data bank there in Arizona. I'm thinking about how

628
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: to go old school to find Nancy Guthrie, starting with

629
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 1: lpr's license plate readers, red light cams. Yes, Jeffrey Gentry

630
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: joining US forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst. Let's talk old school.

631
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: We've heard over and over from mainstream media that nobody's

632
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: door cam could likely catch anything because it's the houses

633
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: in that neighborhood are set far off the street, and

634
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: there is a lot of foliage, trees, you name it.

635
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: That's why people want to live there. You have a

636
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: seclude Look at all the can I see that aeril again,

637
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: look at all the trees, the foliage around each home.

638
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 1: I see what they're saying. But those streets, Jeff Gentry,

639
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: have to have to pour out somewhere, like the stream

640
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: to the river, like the river to the sea. There's

641
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: an outlet somewhere, and at that outlet, I guarantee you

642
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: there's a red light.

643
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 7: Bam, what about it?

644
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 4: I completely agree.

645
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: Well, you have to rely on traditional police work, you

646
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 3: have to rely on science to solve this crime. This

647
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: is not your typical criminal. It's not somebody that has

648
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 3: made huge mistakes. They probably didn't have their cell phone

649
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 3: with them where they're going to get self power things.

650
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 3: They're not making major mistakes like you see in a

651
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: lot of crimes of passion. This is obviously planned out.

652
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: This is not your typical crime. But you see that

653
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: they did make mistakes. They took things from the home,

654
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 3: like the camera. They made mistakes by leaving bloodstains behind.

655
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 3: So when you're talking about forensics and science, you think

656
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 3: about every single contact leaves a trace. That's one of

657
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 3: the foundations of forensic science. Every single contact leaves a trace.

658
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 3: So when this person was preparing for this crime, they

659
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 3: left forensic evidence. When this person was traveling to the scene,

660
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 3: they left forensic evidence. When they broke into the home.

661
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 3: And we're talking about forced entry. Somebody used some kind

662
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 3: of a mechanism to unlock a door, So that's what

663
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: forced entry means. So they're leaving behind evidence. Looking at

664
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 3: the front door, I don't see any fingerprint dust. So

665
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 3: what I would do in this case is I would

666
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 3: scrap everything, start from scratch, recreate this whole event. Try

667
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 3: to think about how this criminal got in the home.

668
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 3: Walk their path, how did they interact with the victim?

669
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 3: Walk their path, did they sit down somewhere, did they

670
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 3: touch things, did they wash their hands? Did they eat

671
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 3: something out of the refrigerator. All of these contacts inside

672
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 3: the home and with the victim can leave trace evidence.

673
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 3: They could leave bibers, it could leave fingerprints, it could

674
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 3: leave DNA. You can't rule anything out in this case.

675
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 3: You have to think like a criminal in these cases,

676
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 3: how did this person get in? How did they exit

677
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: the door cam? Most of these door cams you can't

678
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 3: just pull them off. They require some kind of special

679
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: tool to get them off. So was there some kind

680
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: of a scratch or did they leave a fingerprint behind

681
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: when they were reaching through the door to remove this

682
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: camera so it wouldn't see when they're walking her out.

683
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 3: We know that she was bleeding. We know she's standing

684
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 3: there for some period of time. We believe that she

685
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 3: was upright and walked away because the nature of the bloodstains.

686
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 3: But why didn't she follow the ground? But what was

687
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: the reason that she left that home without being dragged

688
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 3: away or carried away? You have to think about all

689
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 3: these things. You can't rely on assumption at this point.

690
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: You have to recreate everything and figure out where this

691
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: person messed up, because this criminal did mess up somewhere

692
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: and they will be caught.

693
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: New DNA evidence discovered Dave mac joining me Crime Stories

694
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: investigative reporter New DNA.

695
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: What investigators found biological material that does not belong to

696
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie. They found it inside the home weeks after

697
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: the home had already been searched, after evidence had been collected,

698
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 2: and after the home was briefly turned back to the

699
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: family before they investigators shut it back down.

700
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: Guys, we're showing Nancy's home right now. This is from

701
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: our friends at twelve knees. There's so many directions to

702
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: go with this bombshell. It's maybe a bombshell to only

703
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: crime watchers, crime officionados, people like US prosecutors, former FBI lawyers, shrinks,

704
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: DNA experts. You got a big, big problem with the

705
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 1: fact that this DNA is discovered two weeks later. Let's

706
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: go ahead, let's tackle it head on. Joining me Kelly Hyman,

707
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: veteran trial attorney analysts podcast star of Once Upon a

708
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: Crime in Hollywood. Kelly, go ahead, I've got I'm ready

709
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: for you. See I know what you're gonna say, and

710
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: I'm ready for you. Go ahead, attack the DNA. I'm ready.

711
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 15: DNA is key to this case. Why is DNA so important?

712
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 15: Because the DNA can prove who was there. The DNA

713
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 15: can help substantiate who was in the house at this time.

714
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 15: The police went in and then two weeks later find

715
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 15: this DNA. All of a sudden after two weeks it's found. Now,

716
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 15: I could see a lot of couch investigators saying that

717
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 15: there's something wrong with that. Why didn't they find this

718
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 15: DNA the first time? Why is it all of a

719
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 15: sudden being found Nancy?

720
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 7: Okay, there you go.

721
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: That's just a tiny, tiny tidbit. Kelly him is actually

722
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: being generous and delicate with this attack, because let me

723
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: assure you that when and if this goes to trial,

724
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: there will be a frontal attack on this DNA. Here's

725
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: my response. So they find the perp, Okay, this DNA

726
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: has already been found, Okay, even though it's late to

727
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: the party. When they find the perp, that's going to

728
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: be much later. So what their mind readers? They now

729
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: know who the purp is, they go get DNA and

730
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: they plant it. Yeah, Susannah Ryan, lab director forensic DNA

731
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: analyst at Pure Gold Forensics. How will authorities go about

732
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: ruling out every worker, every crime scene investigator that had

733
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 1: been in the home so we're not subjected to claims

734
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: of cross contamination.

735
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 8: Well, that can be done pretty simply by getting their

736
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 8: DNA profile and doing a comparison to any developed DNA

737
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 8: that we get from that crime scene, and I really

738
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 8: don't see it as a problem. I think one of

739
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 8: the things that you mentioned in the past is we

740
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 8: don't have a suspect yet, so we're not creating DNA.

741
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 8: We cannot create a DNA profile. Whatever is on that

742
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 8: evidence is on there, we don't even have the suspects

743
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 8: DNA to compare it to. So once we have that,

744
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 8: if there's a match, we can't no one can say, oh, they,

745
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 8: you know, somehow planted his DNA. We didn't have his DNA.

746
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 8: So I really don't see it as a problem. I

747
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 8: work on cold cases all the time where we have

748
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 8: DNA that maybe was collected in the eighties or nineties,

749
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 8: and we're just getting a profile today. That doesn't mean

750
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 8: that we somehow created it. It's always been there. We're

751
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 8: just developing the DNA profile at this time.

752
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: To Mary Coleman joining us Kold Crime Files in Investigator

753
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: Mary Coleman, we now know that DNA in Nancy Guthrie's

754
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: home is stranger DNA, But yet we are also hearing

755
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: that there are problems because it's mixed DNA. What do

756
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, we're hearing the same thing Nancy.

757
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 16: We've been told that it's going to take a longer

758
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 16: amount of time, even up to a year, to get

759
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 16: some of this back to let us know whether this

760
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 16: person is in a system, or whether they have a

761
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 16: relative who we can trace this to, or anything of

762
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 16: that nature, which is obviously concerning time is of the

763
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 16: essence right now. We've seen this technology used in so

764
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 16: many other cases, and so to hear that it's mixed

765
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 16: and that it might not be as reliable as some

766
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 16: of the other DNA that we've seen in previous cases

767
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 16: is alarming for the community and especially for the family.

768
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 16: As you can imagine, they just want answers.

769
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: Here straight out to Tammy Balar joining us. Tammy's the

770
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: crime scene investigation investigator reconstruction as former DNA criminalists for

771
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: the San Diego Police Department Crime Lab, Tammy Ballard.

772
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 7: In this day and age.

773
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: Mixed DNA is to be expected and is actually routine,

774
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: explain exactly how well, first of all, what is mixed

775
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: DNA deoxurivay to clayic acid, and how exactly mechanically is

776
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: it evaluated and analyzed?

777
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 7: How do you do it?

778
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: How do you handle mixed DNA?

779
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 12: Mixtures of DNA are going to make law enforcement and

780
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 12: attorneys very nervous. So in the DNA world, mixtures are everywhere.

781
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 12: As technology advances, the sensitivity increases, you're going to find

782
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 12: mixtures in almost everything. Even bloodstains that used to be

783
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,959
Speaker 12: single source, you might get that one percent contributor that's

784
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 12: going to make it a mixture. So that being said,

785
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 12: in this case, we know Nancy's profile, we know her

786
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 12: family's profiles, so there's a lot to work with and

787
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 12: basically remove from those mixtures. Do I think it's going

788
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 12: to take a year, Not at all. I think that's

789
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 12: the law enforcement translation because it's probably lack of understanding.

790
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 12: So what they've got is probably good mixtures that they

791
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 12: have to deal with and they're going to put those out,

792
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 12: But it is not going to take a year in

793
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 12: my opinion.

794
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: You know, Tammy Ballard little known fact. DNA has been

795
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: used for decades. It's been used on the battlefield to

796
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: identify victims our military, and it has advanced, advanced advance.

797
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: I tried a lot of cases before it was accepted

798
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: in court, and a lot of cases after it was

799
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,439
Speaker 1: accepted in court, and it makes all the difference. When

800
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: I heard Nano's blurt out again, it could take a year.

801
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: That's not true. Anyone that has worked with DNA knows

802
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: that is not true. Now, what can take some time,

803
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: and please Tammy jump in. What can take some time

804
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: is when you're trying to build out a family tree

805
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: with genetic genealogy. That can take some time. It can

806
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: take weeks, it could take a month.

807
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 7: It does not take a year.

808
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: And I'll point to one of the first times it

809
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: was you successful in our country, and that is the

810
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: Golden State Killer. I always use him as the poster

811
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: boy for genetic genealogy because it was one of the

812
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: first right that didn't take a year, and it had

813
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: never been admitted in court before.

814
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 7: So you said a couple of things.

815
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: I want to follow up on. Number one, you said

816
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,240
Speaker 1: there could be a mixture of one percent.

817
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 7: What did you mean by one percent?

818
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 1: One percent?

819
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 12: What When I testify in court, as I just did

820
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 12: last week, I inform a jury that the sensitivity is

821
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 12: so advanced at this point, and the technology is so

822
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 12: advanced that when historically, if you would swab a blood

823
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 12: stain off of a surface, you're going to get a

824
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 12: single source profiled, one person, your bleeder. Now, because that

825
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 12: sensitivity has increased. I take a swab, I swab that

826
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 12: blood stain, and I'm very likely collecting cells from under

827
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 12: beneath that bloodstain, and those cells are showing up in

828
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 12: my and creating a mixture of DNA. So what everyone

829
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 12: needs to realize is that there are mixtures, but the

830
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 12: technology is advancing so much that we're able to deal

831
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 12: with those mixtures so much better. Now there are limitations,

832
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 12: So genealogy is coming along very rapidly, but that type

833
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 12: of testing, that SNIP testing, not the traditional str testing,

834
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 12: has the limitations that you may not be able to

835
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 12: work with something that is a three person mixture. Now,

836
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 12: again we have Nancy's profile, so if we take Nancy

837
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 12: out of any mixture, now maybe we're dealing with a

838
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 12: two person mixture and that might be something that we

839
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 12: can use for genealogy. But with traditional STR testing, we're

840
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 12: up to evaluating five person mixture. So it is definitely

841
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 12: something that we can work with and it does not

842
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 12: take a year.

843
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: Tammy, you said one percent, and when you were originally

844
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: explaining dn R mix DNA mixed DNA, and I took

845
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 1: that to mean the mixture could be one percent Nancy

846
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: and ninety nine percent the stranger. Can you actually tell

847
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: a jury we had a mixture of DNA. Let's just

848
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: pretend we're talking about a rape case. We had a

849
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: mixture of DNA, and fifty percent of the DNA that

850
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: we obtained off the victim's body was the victims DNA,

851
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: fifty percent was the defendants DNA. You can actually I

852
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: sew it down to a percentage.

853
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 12: Yes, with the current computer technology, the software that is developed,

854
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 12: you can actually estimate. Now it's an estimate, so you

855
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 12: can estimate the percent of contribution from each person in

856
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 12: that mixture. So when I report the data and I say, okay,

857
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 12: I have a three person mixture, ninety two percent of

858
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 12: that is estimated to come from one contributor and eight

859
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 12: percent of that is estimated to come from another contributor.

860
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 12: I say those values because I was able to get

861
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 12: an eight percent contributor up to a code of search.

862
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 12: So we are moving so far forward with the technology

863
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 12: that it's just better and better. So as long as

864
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 12: the laboratories that they're sending them to are utilizing this technology,

865
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 12: which they are, this is not going to take a year.

866
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the

867
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie Again. We call on YouTube dial

868
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 1: toll free eight hundred two two five five three two

869
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: four eight hundred call FBI, or if you wish to

870
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 1: remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four

871
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: six three five two zero eight eight two seven four

872
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: sixty three. There is a one point two plus million

873
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: dollar reward. No arrest, no conviction required, just information leading

874
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: to Nancy Guthrie. Prayers go on. Good night friend,