Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning with the second part
Speaker 1: of our two part interview with Mike Render. We're asking
Speaker 1: questions in this one, like how many members does the
Speaker 1: Church of Scientology actually have, what's going on in Clearwater, Florida.
Speaker 1: And I think this interview was very important to all
Speaker 1: of us because Mike does a fantastic job of fielding questions.
Speaker 1: I think is very fair and he's perhaps most importantly
Speaker 1: speaking from experience.
Speaker 2: I thought you were gonna say fair game. Sorry, well,
Speaker 2: he certainly was.
Speaker 1: Do we want to talk about what fair game is
Speaker 1: for a second?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe you may have covered in the first episode,
Speaker 3: but just as a refresher, it's just the concept within
Speaker 3: Scientology of anybody who is speaking out against Scientology as
Speaker 3: being someone who is an acceptable target. And that can
Speaker 3: mean everything from following around, surveilling, docsing, any number of
Speaker 3: kind of nefarious ways of messing with people's lives. So
Speaker 3: I've spoken out against the church.
Speaker 1: Bullying, character assassination, violent retribution. We also want to shout
Speaker 1: out the show that Mike was helming at the time
Speaker 1: of this interview, which is Scientology fair Game.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: Let's roll part two of our interview with Mike Grender.
Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 4: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Nola.
Speaker 4: They call me Ben.
Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul
Speaker 1: Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, you are here,
Speaker 1: and that this stuff they don't want you to know?
Speaker 1: It is part two in our two part interview with
Speaker 1: Mike Render, the co creator of Scientology. Fair Game, a
Speaker 1: deep dive into a controversial organization and institution with exclusive access.
Speaker 1: We don't want to say too much. What do you see?
Speaker 4: We get right into it.
Speaker 2: I think that's a smart thing. Just remember you should
Speaker 2: listen to episode one first, the first part of this series.
Speaker 2: Please do it if you haven't yet.
Speaker 1: Cool.
Speaker 2: All right, So, Mike, I'm imagining I'm an individual because
Speaker 2: I've never been a part of the Church of Scientology.
Speaker 2: I thought about getting audited once a long time ago.
Speaker 2: But I'm imagining I'm an individual who's going up the
Speaker 2: bridge or I'm traversing the bridge. Right, I've been paying,
Speaker 2: like you're saying, tons of money, almost everything I have,
Speaker 2: if not more. And I get to a certain point
Speaker 2: that a lot of people in the past have talked about,
Speaker 2: that has been made fun of by south Park and
Speaker 2: all these other people. You get to a certain point
Speaker 2: in the bridge where you're revealed very secret information that
Speaker 2: anyone who is behind you on the bridge is not
Speaker 2: going to know, and you're not going to know unless
Speaker 2: you're shown this secret piece of paper and has something
Speaker 2: to do with stuff that you can't that in my mind,
Speaker 2: a science fiction writer would come up with, can you
Speaker 2: tell us about that point?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 2: Can you I know exactly right, Can you tell us
Speaker 2: about that point?
Speaker 5: What it is?
Speaker 2: And the mental gymnastics maybe that one has to do
Speaker 2: in order to continue on the bridge?
Speaker 5: Absolutely. That point is called O T three and that
Speaker 5: stands for operating Thetan, and Thetan in scientology, terminology means
Speaker 5: you the spirit yourself, not your body, not your mind,
Speaker 5: but the essence of being the id whatever you know.
Speaker 5: There's lots of terms for it, but in scientology it's
Speaker 5: called the Thetan, and operating Thetan is the ultimate objective
Speaker 5: of moving up the bridge to become capable as a
Speaker 5: spiritual being of transcending the the world in scientology is
Speaker 5: called mess matter, energy, space, and time to transcend those
Speaker 5: things as a spiritual being, because ultimately everybody is a
Speaker 5: spiritual being who that has enormous power and created this
Speaker 5: whole universe and can control this whole universe, but has
Speaker 5: lost those abilities and scientology restores them. And part of
Speaker 5: this is this thing called OT three, which Hubbard wrote
Speaker 5: and you you say, you only a science fiction writer
Speaker 5: could have come up with it, and it is definitely,
Speaker 5: you know, sort of Buck Rudgers kind of science fiction.
Speaker 5: It is the story of the galactic ruler called Xenu
Speaker 5: x e Nu, who controlled two hundred and seventy eight
Speaker 5: planets of the Galactic Confederacy seventy five million years ago,
Speaker 5: was trying to solve an over population problem of having
Speaker 5: you know, I can't even remember how many billions of people.
Speaker 5: But he had to get rid of a bunch of them,
Speaker 5: so he called them in for a tax audit and
Speaker 5: tricked them and loaded them into spaceships frozen in glycol
Speaker 5: and flew them to planet Earth as a dumping ground
Speaker 5: for these people to get rid of them. They were
Speaker 5: all the racalcit tree, the artists, the the troublemakers of society,
Speaker 5: and he dropped them into volcanoes and blew them up
Speaker 5: with hydrogen bombs, and they, those spiritual Thetan beings are
Speaker 5: now stuck to you, every person on planet Earth, all
Speaker 5: over your body, thousands and thousands of them, and they
Speaker 5: control and influence your thoughts and actions.
Speaker 3: But true, this is like a creation myth or something.
Speaker 3: This is like the Jonah and the Whale story. It's
Speaker 3: meant to be like a parable, right or is this
Speaker 3: people intended to get?
Speaker 5: No, it's literal. It's not a parable. Okay, okay, okay,
Speaker 5: I mean yeah, Well, I mean Noah and they are.
Speaker 5: I mean there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians that
Speaker 5: believe that is a literal story, and a lot of
Speaker 5: these other things are literal stories. Scientologists. One thing about scientology.
Speaker 5: Everybody is a fundamentalist in scientology. There's no there is
Speaker 5: no I'm sort of a reform Jew kind of guy.
Speaker 5: I'm kind of an ethnically a Catholic. I'm sort of
Speaker 5: a lapsed Catholic. Nope, you're a scientologist one hundred percent,
Speaker 5: or you're not at all. You are you will get
Speaker 5: accused of squirrelly exactly exactly. In fact, the fundamental, the
Speaker 5: fundamental policy that al Ron Hubbard wrote is called keeping
Speaker 5: Scientology working, and in it it goes on and on
Speaker 5: and on, but in it he says, I'd rather have
Speaker 5: you dead than incapable or not a true committed scientologist.
Speaker 5: So scientologists uh expected to believe this and have it
Speaker 5: sort of when when when you're first exposed to this,
Speaker 5: it's supposed to be like a magnificent revelation. Oh my god,
Speaker 5: Oh I get it, Oh my god. And there are
Speaker 5: people standing around watching you like, oh what is it?
Speaker 5: Oh what's this reaction going to be? So you have
Speaker 5: to sort of react. And Leah and I and a
Speaker 5: lot of other people have talked about this subsequently, and
Speaker 5: you go, wow, this is like seriously, this is what
Speaker 5: this is about? Shit, what am I supposed to do
Speaker 5: with this? And this is where the genius of Hubbard
Speaker 5: and the E meter comes in, because all these people
Speaker 5: who have already been there will say to you, listen,
Speaker 5: you don't have to believe a word of it. See
Speaker 5: if it reads on the E meter. Just see if
Speaker 5: it reads on the E meter. And if it does,
Speaker 5: you don't have to believe it. You just do it.
Speaker 5: You just go along with it, because the E meter
Speaker 5: will tell you whether it's true or not. Now, this
Speaker 5: E meter is a fascinating device that I haven't yet
Speaker 5: fully been able to understand. But a lot of people say, well,
Speaker 5: it just it just reacts to sweat on the palm
Speaker 5: of your hands and this and that, and I that's
Speaker 5: not true. It doesn't. It reacts to more than that.
Speaker 5: And there's a terrific movie by do you know who
Speaker 5: Tom Shaddyak is. He's a He was the director of
Speaker 5: of Uh, What's that? Jim Carrey Pet Detectives, Ace Venture
Speaker 5: of Pet Detection and and he he was a very
Speaker 5: successful director and producer. And he had a horrendous bicycling
Speaker 5: accident and nearly killed himself, and he woke up from
Speaker 5: a coma or something and he decided, I got to
Speaker 5: figure out what the meaning of life is. And he
Speaker 5: made this film called I Am and it is him
Speaker 5: going around the world seeking to get an understanding of
Speaker 5: what is life. And part of this I found fascinating, Well,
Speaker 5: all of it's fascinating, but there's a particular thing in
Speaker 5: there where he goes to see these quantum physicists, and
Speaker 5: they say, look, and you know, I don't want to
Speaker 5: get into all the subject of quantum physics, but it's
Speaker 5: a fascinating thing. And they have this This sounds crazy,
Speaker 5: but they have a bowl of yogurt sitting in front
Speaker 5: of him with these electrodes stuck in this bowl of yogurt,
Speaker 5: and they say, we want to show you that emotion
Speaker 5: can transfer from one living organism to another, and that
Speaker 5: this is a real thing. And I will say to you, guys, look,
Speaker 5: I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I
Speaker 5: certainly have. Where you walk into a room and there
Speaker 5: is someone in there, and without seeing or talking to them,
Speaker 5: you know they're upset. There is a vibe that you get.
Speaker 5: There's a there's upset in this room, and something is
Speaker 5: emanating upset and it's not it's not a statement, but
Speaker 5: in any event, this, this ball of yogurt is sat
Speaker 5: down in front of Tom and they start asking him
Speaker 5: questions and he's looking at this little meeda that is
Speaker 5: measuring some sort of electrical impulse in the yogat. Because
Speaker 5: yogurt is a live organism, it's got you know whatever
Speaker 5: they call those things in there that that what's called cultures? Yeah, cultures? Yeah,
Speaker 5: you know that? That for your guts? Yeah, exactly that.
Speaker 5: What's the name promotes on TV? I can't even think
Speaker 5: of the name now, oh my god from from Halloween.
Speaker 2: Jim.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah. In any event, they they they're talking to you
Speaker 5: about all this stuff and then they say, now, Tom,
Speaker 5: what about the divorce with your wife? And this little
Speaker 5: dial goes and he's like, yeah, this is a saw
Speaker 5: subject for me. And he like goes, oh my god,
Speaker 5: how did how did the yogurt know? And this.
Speaker 2: That's real, that's real, that actually happens.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's in the film. It's it is really interesting.
Speaker 5: And see, I have a lot of experience with the
Speaker 5: E meter, and I know that it's not just physical.
Speaker 5: There is an a mental emotional. Now what it is
Speaker 5: and how it works and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 5: I don't know. But if you sell a secret, is
Speaker 5: there a schematic? Like is that? Who desires? Like where's
Speaker 5: the patent to design for the em Where does that live?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 5: Where is that like in the in the US patent office? Seriously,
Speaker 5: it's in the US. Will never know? Yeah, okay, well, no,
Speaker 5: you can go it's a it's a it's yes, it's
Speaker 5: a wheatstone bridge. That is what it is. It's a
Speaker 5: sophisticated wheatstone bridge. What is interesting in scientology is that
Speaker 5: l Ron Hubbards said that the reactions that you get
Speaker 5: on that meta will if you study scientology, you can
Speaker 5: interpret those reactions. And this is a This is the
Speaker 5: incredible trick of it, because you have someone sitting on
Speaker 5: the other side of you who can see the meter
Speaker 5: and you cannot, and he says, well, you're scientology says
Speaker 5: you've got something undisclosed that you haven't told me, so
Speaker 5: what is it? And you have no idea what's happening
Speaker 5: on the other side. But even if you did, I'm
Speaker 5: only going in this long rambling thing because what happens
Speaker 5: is if you can convince someone that if you have
Speaker 5: a thought, I can tell you what it is and
Speaker 5: I can read it using this little meta here, then
Speaker 5: you're home free because you just sit on the You
Speaker 5: just sit there and go, well, there was a reaction,
Speaker 5: so this means that. And people say to you, well,
Speaker 5: you can look on the meta. Does this read on
Speaker 5: the meta? Is this bullshit about blowing up people in
Speaker 5: volcanoes reading on the meta or not. And when you
Speaker 5: instill in someone the idea that that is reality, then
Speaker 5: all you need, I don't know, maybe the reaction that
Speaker 5: you get when you're looking at it is this is
Speaker 5: a bunch of bullshit. But if you've convinced them that
Speaker 5: means it's true, then it becomes true. This is all subjective.
Speaker 5: There is no objective verification of any of this. There's
Speaker 5: no objective verification that Xenu existed seventy five million years ago.
Speaker 5: It's all subjective. And if you can persuade someone that
Speaker 5: this is what this means and this is really true
Speaker 5: because x and this is really true because why, then
Speaker 5: that's all you have to accomplish. It doesn't have to
Speaker 5: be real. You just have to get them to believe
Speaker 5: it in their head. And that's what l Ron Hubbin and
Speaker 5: Scientology is so brilliant at.
Speaker 2: And with that, we're going to take a quick break
Speaker 2: here from a sponsor, but we will return.
Speaker 1: Shortly and we're back with more from Mike Renter. I
Speaker 1: have a question on this concept right of perception, because
Speaker 1: we know Scientology is very, very sensitive to its public image, right,
Speaker 1: as you've discussed Mike, Right, Yeah, one thing that I've
Speaker 1: heard pretty often is a great deal of speculation about
Speaker 1: how many scientologists actually exist, because there have been claims
Speaker 1: that like Scientology will say we have x amount of members,
Speaker 1: and then there are claims from outsiders who say that
Speaker 1: number is is not correct, usually that it's a smaller number.
Speaker 1: Could you speak to that, like, is Scientology conflating the
Speaker 1: number of members or is what's going on there?
Speaker 5: Yeah, they count all the body thetans. That's a joke,
Speaker 5: is that that's what that's what those little things a
Speaker 5: call body thetans. No, Scientology loves to say that they've
Speaker 5: got millions of members or ten million or twelve million
Speaker 5: or fourteen million or whatever. It's complete bullshit, complete bullshit.
Speaker 5: And I will tell you it's complete bullshit because I
Speaker 5: remember when I was in the Office of Special Affairs,
Speaker 5: Heba Jentch, who was at the time the president of
Speaker 5: Church of Scientology International, was being interviewed on the media
Speaker 5: and he said something when asked the question how many
Speaker 5: scientologists are there? And he said like four million, And
Speaker 5: David Muskavich flipped his lid. And so we've been saying,
Speaker 5: we've been saying we were expanding all over the world,
Speaker 5: and we said four million five years ago, so how
Speaker 5: can it still be four million? Make it eight?
Speaker 1: Just make it eight.
Speaker 5: Yeah, double it. We've been saying that, so just double it.
Speaker 5: Give it. Who cares, It doesn't matter, And the truth
Speaker 5: of the matter is there is probably my estimate is
Speaker 5: that there is twenty thousand scientologists in the world. And interestingly,
Speaker 5: Tony or Tega just last week who who has a
Speaker 5: log called the Underground Bunker, and he's been reporting on
Speaker 5: scientology since I don't know, since l Ron Hubbard was
Speaker 5: still alive, you know that long ago. He Scientology recently
Speaker 5: put out something that if you reverse engineered the numbers
Speaker 5: they gave, it indicated that there were six thousand SEOG
Speaker 5: members in scientology. That that's based on their numbers, and
Speaker 5: six thousand SEOG members in Scientology, believe it or not,
Speaker 5: equates to about twenty thousand scientologists. Yes, it's there is
Speaker 5: a lot more people who have and largely these days,
Speaker 5: SEOG members are easier to get than new scientologists for
Speaker 5: two reasons. It's very difficult to persuade anybody to come
Speaker 5: in and get involved in scientology, and not to google it,
Speaker 5: like really, and as soon as anybody googles it, it's
Speaker 5: like the game is over. They ain't going anywhere near
Speaker 5: it again. However, there are two exceptions to that. One,
Speaker 5: children of scientologists the offspring of existing scientologists tend to
Speaker 5: end up in the Sea Organization if they remain a
Speaker 5: scientologist through up until they become a teenager.
Speaker 3: Sea Org is like essentially scientology boot camp, right, wouldn't
Speaker 3: you say, or.
Speaker 5: A scientology life. It's like full time living, eating, and
Speaker 5: working inside scientology organizations.
Speaker 3: But in going clear, there's a whole part of it
Speaker 3: where the early Sea org was all of these almost
Speaker 3: sensory deprivation things of like really whipping people into shape
Speaker 3: to be completely complicit in everything that scientology was about,
Speaker 3: like you know, swabbing the decks and all of this
Speaker 3: kind of stuff, and oh, people getting injured like that aspect.
Speaker 5: I just wondering, Yeah, every person joins the organization does
Speaker 5: that for the first couple of months. That's like that
Speaker 5: is the bootcamp of the Sea ORC. And the second
Speaker 5: type of person that Scientology manages to recruit at this
Speaker 5: point is people from third world countries or very poor
Speaker 5: or oppressed areas like Eastern Europe or Central and South America.
Speaker 5: And they will promise those people that they will bring
Speaker 5: them to the United States and get them a visa
Speaker 5: and give them a how you know, somewhere to live
Speaker 5: and food, and all they have to do is work.
Speaker 5: And for many of those people, the the idea of
Speaker 5: going to the unit and living in the United States
Speaker 5: under any circumstances where a guaranteed job and food is
Speaker 5: like is like a dream come true. And they don't
Speaker 5: have access to the Internet, and they you know, they
Speaker 5: wouldn't know what to google anyway. They're just told by someone, look,
Speaker 5: you know, here's an opportunity for you. And so you find,
Speaker 5: like in Clearwater that a bunch of those Sea OGG
Speaker 5: members down there hardly speak English and are literally have
Speaker 5: become indentured servants because now they're stuck they can't get out.
Speaker 5: And it really is a human trafficking violation. This aspect
Speaker 5: of scientology is in violation of human trafficking laws, and
Speaker 5: if the law enforcement agencies responsible for that could get
Speaker 5: their act together, they would be able to bring an
Speaker 5: effective case on human trafficking.
Speaker 2: Mike, you're talking about Clearwater again. Okay. My grandparents retired
Speaker 2: in Clearwater and I was there quite often visiting them.
Speaker 2: When I was a kid and my grandfather would tell
Speaker 2: me stories and I was never sure how true they were.
Speaker 5: But there were.
Speaker 2: Stories about how the city of Clearwater was being taken
Speaker 2: over by Scientology, like lots large I guess large amounts
Speaker 2: of property were being purchased, their Scientology was infiltrating the
Speaker 2: local government there, and a lot of how everything was working.
Speaker 2: Was there any truth.
Speaker 5: To that, Uh, that's absolutely true. In fact, there was
Speaker 5: a except for the taking over the government and I'll explain. Okay.
Speaker 5: There was a really, really good article written by a
Speaker 5: reporter for the Tampa Bay Times called Tracy McManus last
Speaker 5: year where she documented the efforts that Scientology has made
Speaker 5: to buy property in downtown Clearwater and look, Scientology for
Speaker 5: a long time has owned a lot of property in
Speaker 5: downtown clear Water. It dominates the downtown area with its buildings,
Speaker 5: but it had David Muskavich wanted a certain piece of
Speaker 5: property that was owned by the Clearwater Aquarium, which is,
Speaker 5: you know, the home to winter the Dolphin, and the
Speaker 5: people in charge of the aquarium did not want to
Speaker 5: sell it to Scientology. They wanted to sell it to
Speaker 5: the city and had an agreement with the city that
Speaker 5: the city was going to purchase it and David and
Speaker 5: for four million dollars or something. And David Muscavich one
Speaker 5: of this piece of property so badly. He came in
Speaker 5: and offered fourteen million for it for a piece of
Speaker 5: vacant property, a block, you know, half a block of
Speaker 5: vacant property in downtown clear Water. And they and David Yates,
Speaker 5: who was the head of the aquarium, said I'm sorry,
Speaker 5: I made a commitment to the city. I am going
Speaker 5: to sell it to the city for their redevelopment plans.
Speaker 5: And David Muskavich had a hissy fit, started accused and
Speaker 5: putting out all sorts of of I like, he had
Speaker 5: lawyers writing letters to Panelis County into this and that
Speaker 5: about how David Yeats was a criminal and that he
Speaker 5: was ripping off the he was getting paid too much
Speaker 5: and he was ripping off the city and blah blah blah,
Speaker 5: blah blah blah, and went on an all out campaign
Speaker 5: against David Yeates. Mascavitch had been trying to smooth schmooze
Speaker 5: the city for a long time and saying I will
Speaker 5: redevelop downtown clear Water and we'll bring in a movie theater,
Speaker 5: and we'll do this, and we'll do that, and we'll
Speaker 5: you know, all these fancy presentations that were done. And
Speaker 5: when the city bought that lot, he went, you know what,
Speaker 5: fuck you all when no longer cooperating and cut all
Speaker 5: communication with the city, And then a whole bunch of
Speaker 5: individuals signed tall just started purchasing property in downtown Clearwater
Speaker 5: for cash. Wow, and against that, right, against that, and
Speaker 5: bought like a hundred properties. And downtown Clearwater has it's
Speaker 5: not that big, matt as you know, it's like a
Speaker 5: it's not a very big place. Most of Clearwater exists
Speaker 5: at the beach and out by the mall, and downtown
Speaker 5: is not that big. And so they basically bought the
Speaker 5: whole town. Interestingly, the one thing they have never been
Speaker 5: able to do is get anybody elected. You know. Scientology
Speaker 5: has claimed that they had like twelve thousand members in
Speaker 5: the Clearwater community and they have a huge voting block
Speaker 5: and blah blah blah, and that's bullshit. I known that
Speaker 5: that was bullshit it for a long time, but now
Speaker 5: in particular because most of the people that are in
Speaker 5: the Sea Organization there, which is most of the Scientologists
Speaker 5: come from Eastern Europe and Central America. They can't even vote.
Speaker 5: They're not citizens that can vote, so they have no
Speaker 5: big voting blocks. So last year, me and another one
Speaker 5: of my buddies in that lives down there and who
Speaker 5: appeared on the Aftermath, Aaron Smith Levin Leah and I
Speaker 5: did a show or two shows about Clearwater actually, and
Speaker 5: we interviewed this guy called Mark Bunker. And Mark Bunker
Speaker 5: anybody who watched the show will remember the episode where
Speaker 5: Mark Bunker was sitting on a bench in a park
Speaker 5: that Scientology owns and six police cars came to a
Speaker 5: victim from the bench. Okay, we jokingly said to Mark Bunker,
Speaker 5: you should run for mayor, and then became a little
Speaker 5: more serious about it. And there was an election earlier
Speaker 5: this year for the city Council of the City of Clearwater,
Speaker 5: and Mark Bunker ran in that election, and he ran
Speaker 5: basically exclusively on the basis of I'm not scared of Scientology,
Speaker 5: and I will say the word, and most politicians in
Speaker 5: Clearwater have been afraid to even out of the word.
Speaker 5: They will say the organization in our midst, or all
Speaker 5: religious all religions deserve equal treatment, and all this sort
Speaker 5: of mealy moushit and every citizen of Clearwater is tearing
Speaker 5: their hair out, like what are we going to do
Speaker 5: about this? Like they've taken over our city? What are
Speaker 5: we going to do? And Bunker came in and said,
Speaker 5: I'm not scared of him. I'll say the word scientology, scientology, scientology, scientology, Scientology.
Speaker 5: Then took one of the guys who was running against
Speaker 5: him and tried to feed that guy a bunch of
Speaker 5: you know, like oppo research on Mark Bunker, and it
Speaker 5: it's it's such a joke because Bunker ended up winning
Speaker 5: this election for the seat on the City of Clearwater.
Speaker 5: The guy that Scientology back that they gave all their vote.
Speaker 5: I mean, Bunker got like six five hundred votes. There
Speaker 5: was five people in this race. The second to bottom
Speaker 5: guy who was the Scientology candidate, got two thousand, and
Speaker 5: that means that there was not more than two thousand
Speaker 5: Scientology votes in the city of Clearwater. Because you can
Speaker 5: be sure that everyone who was eligible to vote was
Speaker 5: being You got to get out and vote against Bunker.
Speaker 5: You got to get out and vote against Bunker. You
Speaker 5: got to get out and vote against Bunker. And he
Speaker 5: didn't even come close. So Scientology has not got great
Speaker 5: police political clout in clear Water through the city officials,
Speaker 5: but they have great economic clout.
Speaker 1: Let's pause for a moment for a brief word from
Speaker 1: our sponsor, and then we'll return, diving even deeper into
Speaker 1: the story of Scientology.
Speaker 5: And we're back with more from Mike Render.
Speaker 1: Speaking clout right and aims of the organization. This brings
Speaker 1: me to one question that I think is on the
Speaker 1: mind of a lot of our fellow listeners.
Speaker 5: Here.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's best to ask what do you see as
Speaker 1: the primary aims or goals of modern scientology, Or maybe
Speaker 1: it's better to simplify it and say, what do you
Speaker 1: see as the future of scientology? Like what do they
Speaker 1: actually want?
Speaker 5: What they actually want is they want the world to
Speaker 5: become a scientology world. I mean, their aim is to
Speaker 5: bring everyone and all governments and all government agencies into
Speaker 5: alignment with the goals of Scientology. That is the stated
Speaker 5: purpose of the Office of Special Affairs. As a matter
Speaker 5: of fact, they want everyone to you know, the way
Speaker 5: they put it is to say, we want everybody to
Speaker 5: have the benefits of scientology that we have. What that
Speaker 5: translates into is we want everybody to be a scientologist,
Speaker 5: and that translates into we want to be in control
Speaker 5: of everything in a scientology fashion and run it like
Speaker 5: a scientology show. We want to take over Clearwater and
Speaker 5: have it be a Scientology city. We want to take
Speaker 5: over Los Angeles. We want to take over the entire
Speaker 5: United States. No, actually, we want to take over the
Speaker 5: whole world. They do want. I mean you hear scientologists
Speaker 5: talk all the time about a cleared planet, and a
Speaker 5: cleared planet means everybody is clear, and clear is a
Speaker 5: state in scientology that is achieved through auditing of getting
Speaker 5: rid of your reactive mind, something that Hubbard invented too
Speaker 5: in you know, we're not going to get into that,
Speaker 5: but scientology wants to like every religion. Look, this is
Speaker 5: not unique. Scientology just has much bigger aspirations. They are
Speaker 5: like the you know, the flea on the leg of
Speaker 5: the elephant climbing up the elephant going stand back, I'm coming.
Speaker 5: They're tiny, but they believe that they're going to take
Speaker 5: over the entire world. And this is part of the
Speaker 5: nutty mindset that fundamentalists anythings have. They believe that truly
Speaker 5: believe that they are going to ultimately prevail and Ultimately
Speaker 5: they will be the dominant force of over all of mankind.
Speaker 5: Go ask a Jehovah's witness, they will tell you exactly
Speaker 5: the same thing. Go ask a fundamentalist of any any
Speaker 5: religious organization, a fundamentalist Christian. Everybody is going to be
Speaker 5: ultimately a good Christian or they ain't going to exist anymore.
Speaker 5: They're going to be wiped out in the Second Coming
Speaker 5: or the Armageddon or whatever. Scientologists believe the same thing. Ultimately,
Speaker 5: everybody is going to be a scientologist, and that's what
Speaker 5: they're working to accomplish on the way. That means we're
Speaker 5: gonna get a lot of money, we're gonna have a
Speaker 5: lot of control over a lot of people.
Speaker 1: That was well said and more than a bit disturbing,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you. But I think it may
Speaker 1: an important point that that's not unique to any one
Speaker 1: fundamentalist organization. They're all proselytizing ultimately, right. They're expansion oriented.
Speaker 5: Yeah, But the good news, Ben is scientology may be
Speaker 5: expansion oriented, but they're expansion handicapped. They are not growing.
Speaker 5: They are getting smaller and smaller and smaller, and that
Speaker 5: is due to information that the end of scientology was
Speaker 5: predicted with the beginning of the Internet. The Internet is
Speaker 5: the antidote to all high control mind control organizations that
Speaker 5: exist because information kills them, and when information is easily accessible,
Speaker 5: it is their death. The trick of it is if
Speaker 5: they have intimidated enough people into believing that it is
Speaker 5: dangerous to provide that information, then it doesn't get out
Speaker 5: so easily. And once the information is out, it's it's
Speaker 5: it's rat poison. It kills off and and ultimately cuts
Speaker 5: off the source of new members, and that it's going
Speaker 5: to take a while for Scientology to disappear altogether. It's
Speaker 5: hot like getting rid of a three billion dollar acid
Speaker 5: at organization is not easy, but it's it's diminishing, not increasing.
Speaker 1: Mike Render, thank you so much for taking the time
Speaker 1: to speak with us and our audience today. This has
Speaker 1: been a off Mike everyone. We checked with Mike in
Speaker 1: advance and we essentially said how much time do you
Speaker 1: have and we hope that we have it. We haven't
Speaker 1: made you regret regret taking this this journey with us. Mike,
Speaker 1: you have a blog that we've mentioned before, but we
Speaker 1: didn't say explicitly the name. I would like to point
Speaker 1: out it's Mike rendersblog dot org where you can learn
Speaker 1: more about Mike's work, more about his experiences, and of course,
Speaker 1: as we mentioned at the top of the show, please
Speaker 1: do check out the podcast, which is Scientology Fair Game.
Speaker 1: In this you will find a deep dive, an exploration
Speaker 1: that is exclusive that that goes into much more detail
Speaker 1: about some of the things we've explored today, when we've
Speaker 1: just scratched the surface. I think it's fair to say.
Speaker 2: And you know, Mike, we will have to have you
Speaker 2: back on because we have so many more questions. But
Speaker 2: we can't thank you enough for spending your time with
Speaker 2: us today. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you all. It's been a real pleasure and
Speaker 5: I will happily come back whenever you ready to get
Speaker 5: overwhelmed with useless information from Mike Rindo once again.
Speaker 2: All right, yeah, we're ready. We want to go full clear, right,
Speaker 2: We're down.
Speaker 5: We're down for this, alrighty.
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 5: It's right. Let us know what you think.
Speaker 3: You can reach you to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
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