1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We are returning with the second part 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: of our two part interview with Mike Render. We're asking 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: questions in this one, like how many members does the 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: Church of Scientology actually have, what's going on in Clearwater, Florida. 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: And I think this interview was very important to all 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: of us because Mike does a fantastic job of fielding questions. 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: I think is very fair and he's perhaps most importantly 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: speaking from experience. 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: I thought you were gonna say fair game. Sorry, well, 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: he certainly was. 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: Do we want to talk about what fair game is 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: for a second? 13 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe you may have covered in the first episode, 14 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 3: but just as a refresher, it's just the concept within 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 3: Scientology of anybody who is speaking out against Scientology as 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 3: being someone who is an acceptable target. And that can 17 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 3: mean everything from following around, surveilling, docsing, any number of 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: kind of nefarious ways of messing with people's lives. So 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 3: I've spoken out against the church. 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: Bullying, character assassination, violent retribution. We also want to shout 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: out the show that Mike was helming at the time 22 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 1: of this interview, which is Scientology fair Game. 23 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: That's right. 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: Let's roll part two of our interview with Mike Grender. 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 27 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 4: production of iHeartRadio. 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 30 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: my name is Nola. 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 4: They call me Ben. 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul 33 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, you are here, 34 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: and that this stuff they don't want you to know? 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: It is part two in our two part interview with 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: Mike Render, the co creator of Scientology. Fair Game, a 37 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: deep dive into a controversial organization and institution with exclusive access. 38 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: We don't want to say too much. What do you see? 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 4: We get right into it. 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: I think that's a smart thing. Just remember you should 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: listen to episode one first, the first part of this series. 42 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: Please do it if you haven't yet. 43 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: Cool. 44 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: All right, So, Mike, I'm imagining I'm an individual because 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: I've never been a part of the Church of Scientology. 46 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: I thought about getting audited once a long time ago. 47 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: But I'm imagining I'm an individual who's going up the 48 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: bridge or I'm traversing the bridge. Right, I've been paying, 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: like you're saying, tons of money, almost everything I have, 50 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: if not more. And I get to a certain point 51 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: that a lot of people in the past have talked about, 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: that has been made fun of by south Park and 53 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: all these other people. You get to a certain point 54 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: in the bridge where you're revealed very secret information that 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: anyone who is behind you on the bridge is not 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: going to know, and you're not going to know unless 57 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: you're shown this secret piece of paper and has something 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: to do with stuff that you can't that in my mind, 59 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: a science fiction writer would come up with, can you 60 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: tell us about that point? 61 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 5: Yes? 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: Can you I know exactly right, Can you tell us 63 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: about that point? 64 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 5: What it is? 65 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: And the mental gymnastics maybe that one has to do 66 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: in order to continue on the bridge? 67 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 5: Absolutely. That point is called O T three and that 68 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 5: stands for operating Thetan, and Thetan in scientology, terminology means 69 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 5: you the spirit yourself, not your body, not your mind, 70 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 5: but the essence of being the id whatever you know. 71 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 5: There's lots of terms for it, but in scientology it's 72 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 5: called the Thetan, and operating Thetan is the ultimate objective 73 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 5: of moving up the bridge to become capable as a 74 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 5: spiritual being of transcending the the world in scientology is 75 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 5: called mess matter, energy, space, and time to transcend those 76 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 5: things as a spiritual being, because ultimately everybody is a 77 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 5: spiritual being who that has enormous power and created this 78 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 5: whole universe and can control this whole universe, but has 79 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 5: lost those abilities and scientology restores them. And part of 80 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 5: this is this thing called OT three, which Hubbard wrote 81 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 5: and you you say, you only a science fiction writer 82 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 5: could have come up with it, and it is definitely, 83 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 5: you know, sort of Buck Rudgers kind of science fiction. 84 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 5: It is the story of the galactic ruler called Xenu 85 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 5: x e Nu, who controlled two hundred and seventy eight 86 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 5: planets of the Galactic Confederacy seventy five million years ago, 87 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 5: was trying to solve an over population problem of having 88 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 5: you know, I can't even remember how many billions of people. 89 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 5: But he had to get rid of a bunch of them, 90 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 5: so he called them in for a tax audit and 91 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 5: tricked them and loaded them into spaceships frozen in glycol 92 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 5: and flew them to planet Earth as a dumping ground 93 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 5: for these people to get rid of them. They were 94 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 5: all the racalcit tree, the artists, the the troublemakers of society, 95 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 5: and he dropped them into volcanoes and blew them up 96 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 5: with hydrogen bombs, and they, those spiritual Thetan beings are 97 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 5: now stuck to you, every person on planet Earth, all 98 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 5: over your body, thousands and thousands of them, and they 99 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 5: control and influence your thoughts and actions. 100 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 3: But true, this is like a creation myth or something. 101 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: This is like the Jonah and the Whale story. It's 102 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 3: meant to be like a parable, right or is this 103 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 3: people intended to get? 104 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 5: No, it's literal. It's not a parable. Okay, okay, okay, 105 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 5: I mean yeah, Well, I mean Noah and they are. 106 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 5: I mean there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians that 107 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 5: believe that is a literal story, and a lot of 108 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 5: these other things are literal stories. Scientologists. One thing about scientology. 109 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 5: Everybody is a fundamentalist in scientology. There's no there is 110 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 5: no I'm sort of a reform Jew kind of guy. 111 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 5: I'm kind of an ethnically a Catholic. I'm sort of 112 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 5: a lapsed Catholic. Nope, you're a scientologist one hundred percent, 113 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 5: or you're not at all. You are you will get 114 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 5: accused of squirrelly exactly exactly. In fact, the fundamental, the 115 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 5: fundamental policy that al Ron Hubbard wrote is called keeping 116 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 5: Scientology working, and in it it goes on and on 117 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 5: and on, but in it he says, I'd rather have 118 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 5: you dead than incapable or not a true committed scientologist. 119 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 5: So scientologists uh expected to believe this and have it 120 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 5: sort of when when when you're first exposed to this, 121 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 5: it's supposed to be like a magnificent revelation. Oh my god, 122 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 5: Oh I get it, Oh my god. And there are 123 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 5: people standing around watching you like, oh what is it? 124 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 5: Oh what's this reaction going to be? So you have 125 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 5: to sort of react. And Leah and I and a 126 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 5: lot of other people have talked about this subsequently, and 127 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 5: you go, wow, this is like seriously, this is what 128 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 5: this is about? Shit, what am I supposed to do 129 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 5: with this? And this is where the genius of Hubbard 130 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 5: and the E meter comes in, because all these people 131 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 5: who have already been there will say to you, listen, 132 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 5: you don't have to believe a word of it. See 133 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 5: if it reads on the E meter. Just see if 134 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 5: it reads on the E meter. And if it does, 135 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 5: you don't have to believe it. You just do it. 136 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 5: You just go along with it, because the E meter 137 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 5: will tell you whether it's true or not. Now, this 138 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 5: E meter is a fascinating device that I haven't yet 139 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 5: fully been able to understand. But a lot of people say, well, 140 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 5: it just it just reacts to sweat on the palm 141 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 5: of your hands and this and that, and I that's 142 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 5: not true. It doesn't. It reacts to more than that. 143 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 5: And there's a terrific movie by do you know who 144 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 5: Tom Shaddyak is. He's a He was the director of 145 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 5: of Uh, What's that? Jim Carrey Pet Detectives, Ace Venture 146 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 5: of Pet Detection and and he he was a very 147 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 5: successful director and producer. And he had a horrendous bicycling 148 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 5: accident and nearly killed himself, and he woke up from 149 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 5: a coma or something and he decided, I got to 150 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 5: figure out what the meaning of life is. And he 151 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 5: made this film called I Am and it is him 152 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 5: going around the world seeking to get an understanding of 153 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 5: what is life. And part of this I found fascinating, Well, 154 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 5: all of it's fascinating, but there's a particular thing in 155 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 5: there where he goes to see these quantum physicists, and 156 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 5: they say, look, and you know, I don't want to 157 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 5: get into all the subject of quantum physics, but it's 158 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 5: a fascinating thing. And they have this This sounds crazy, 159 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 5: but they have a bowl of yogurt sitting in front 160 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 5: of him with these electrodes stuck in this bowl of yogurt, 161 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 5: and they say, we want to show you that emotion 162 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 5: can transfer from one living organism to another, and that 163 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 5: this is a real thing. And I will say to you, guys, look, 164 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 5: I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I 165 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 5: certainly have. Where you walk into a room and there 166 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 5: is someone in there, and without seeing or talking to them, 167 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 5: you know they're upset. There is a vibe that you get. 168 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 5: There's a there's upset in this room, and something is 169 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 5: emanating upset and it's not it's not a statement, but 170 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 5: in any event, this, this ball of yogurt is sat 171 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 5: down in front of Tom and they start asking him 172 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 5: questions and he's looking at this little meeda that is 173 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 5: measuring some sort of electrical impulse in the yogat. Because 174 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 5: yogurt is a live organism, it's got you know whatever 175 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 5: they call those things in there that that what's called cultures? Yeah, cultures? Yeah, 176 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 5: you know that? That for your guts? Yeah, exactly that. 177 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 5: What's the name promotes on TV? I can't even think 178 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 5: of the name now, oh my god from from Halloween. 179 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: Jim. 180 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 181 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 5: Yeah. In any event, they they they're talking to you 182 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 5: about all this stuff and then they say, now, Tom, 183 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 5: what about the divorce with your wife? And this little 184 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 5: dial goes and he's like, yeah, this is a saw 185 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 5: subject for me. And he like goes, oh my god, 186 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 5: how did how did the yogurt know? And this. 187 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 2: That's real, that's real, that actually happens. 188 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 5: Yes, it's in the film. It's it is really interesting. 189 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 5: And see, I have a lot of experience with the 190 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 5: E meter, and I know that it's not just physical. 191 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 5: There is an a mental emotional. Now what it is 192 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 5: and how it works and all that sort of stuff, 193 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 5: I don't know. But if you sell a secret, is 194 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 5: there a schematic? Like is that? Who desires? Like where's 195 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 5: the patent to design for the em Where does that live? 196 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 4: Like? 197 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 5: Where is that like in the in the US patent office? Seriously, 198 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 5: it's in the US. Will never know? Yeah, okay, well, no, 199 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 5: you can go it's a it's a it's yes, it's 200 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 5: a wheatstone bridge. That is what it is. It's a 201 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 5: sophisticated wheatstone bridge. What is interesting in scientology is that 202 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 5: l Ron Hubbards said that the reactions that you get 203 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 5: on that meta will if you study scientology, you can 204 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 5: interpret those reactions. And this is a This is the 205 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 5: incredible trick of it, because you have someone sitting on 206 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 5: the other side of you who can see the meter 207 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 5: and you cannot, and he says, well, you're scientology says 208 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 5: you've got something undisclosed that you haven't told me, so 209 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 5: what is it? And you have no idea what's happening 210 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 5: on the other side. But even if you did, I'm 211 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 5: only going in this long rambling thing because what happens 212 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 5: is if you can convince someone that if you have 213 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 5: a thought, I can tell you what it is and 214 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 5: I can read it using this little meta here, then 215 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 5: you're home free because you just sit on the You 216 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 5: just sit there and go, well, there was a reaction, 217 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 5: so this means that. And people say to you, well, 218 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 5: you can look on the meta. Does this read on 219 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 5: the meta? Is this bullshit about blowing up people in 220 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 5: volcanoes reading on the meta or not. And when you 221 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 5: instill in someone the idea that that is reality, then 222 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 5: all you need, I don't know, maybe the reaction that 223 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 5: you get when you're looking at it is this is 224 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 5: a bunch of bullshit. But if you've convinced them that 225 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 5: means it's true, then it becomes true. This is all subjective. 226 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 5: There is no objective verification of any of this. There's 227 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 5: no objective verification that Xenu existed seventy five million years ago. 228 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 5: It's all subjective. And if you can persuade someone that 229 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 5: this is what this means and this is really true 230 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 5: because x and this is really true because why, then 231 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 5: that's all you have to accomplish. It doesn't have to 232 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 5: be real. You just have to get them to believe 233 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 5: it in their head. And that's what l Ron Hubbin and 234 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 5: Scientology is so brilliant at. 235 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: And with that, we're going to take a quick break 236 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: here from a sponsor, but we will return. 237 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: Shortly and we're back with more from Mike Renter. I 238 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: have a question on this concept right of perception, because 239 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: we know Scientology is very, very sensitive to its public image, right, 240 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: as you've discussed Mike, Right, Yeah, one thing that I've 241 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: heard pretty often is a great deal of speculation about 242 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: how many scientologists actually exist, because there have been claims 243 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: that like Scientology will say we have x amount of members, 244 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: and then there are claims from outsiders who say that 245 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: number is is not correct, usually that it's a smaller number. 246 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: Could you speak to that, like, is Scientology conflating the 247 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: number of members or is what's going on there? 248 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, they count all the body thetans. That's a joke, 249 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 5: is that that's what that's what those little things a 250 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 5: call body thetans. No, Scientology loves to say that they've 251 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 5: got millions of members or ten million or twelve million 252 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 5: or fourteen million or whatever. It's complete bullshit, complete bullshit. 253 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 5: And I will tell you it's complete bullshit because I 254 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 5: remember when I was in the Office of Special Affairs, 255 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 5: Heba Jentch, who was at the time the president of 256 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 5: Church of Scientology International, was being interviewed on the media 257 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 5: and he said something when asked the question how many 258 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 5: scientologists are there? And he said like four million, And 259 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 5: David Muskavich flipped his lid. And so we've been saying, 260 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 5: we've been saying we were expanding all over the world, 261 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 5: and we said four million five years ago, so how 262 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 5: can it still be four million? Make it eight? 263 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: Just make it eight. 264 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, double it. We've been saying that, so just double it. 265 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 5: Give it. Who cares, It doesn't matter, And the truth 266 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 5: of the matter is there is probably my estimate is 267 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 5: that there is twenty thousand scientologists in the world. And interestingly, 268 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 5: Tony or Tega just last week who who has a 269 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 5: log called the Underground Bunker, and he's been reporting on 270 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 5: scientology since I don't know, since l Ron Hubbard was 271 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 5: still alive, you know that long ago. He Scientology recently 272 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 5: put out something that if you reverse engineered the numbers 273 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 5: they gave, it indicated that there were six thousand SEOG 274 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 5: members in scientology. That that's based on their numbers, and 275 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 5: six thousand SEOG members in Scientology, believe it or not, 276 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 5: equates to about twenty thousand scientologists. Yes, it's there is 277 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 5: a lot more people who have and largely these days, 278 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 5: SEOG members are easier to get than new scientologists for 279 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 5: two reasons. It's very difficult to persuade anybody to come 280 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 5: in and get involved in scientology, and not to google it, 281 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 5: like really, and as soon as anybody googles it, it's 282 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 5: like the game is over. They ain't going anywhere near 283 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 5: it again. However, there are two exceptions to that. One, 284 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 5: children of scientologists the offspring of existing scientologists tend to 285 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 5: end up in the Sea Organization if they remain a 286 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 5: scientologist through up until they become a teenager. 287 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 3: Sea Org is like essentially scientology boot camp, right, wouldn't 288 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 3: you say, or. 289 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 5: A scientology life. It's like full time living, eating, and 290 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 5: working inside scientology organizations. 291 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 3: But in going clear, there's a whole part of it 292 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 3: where the early Sea org was all of these almost 293 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 3: sensory deprivation things of like really whipping people into shape 294 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: to be completely complicit in everything that scientology was about, 295 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 3: like you know, swabbing the decks and all of this 296 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 3: kind of stuff, and oh, people getting injured like that aspect. 297 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 5: I just wondering, Yeah, every person joins the organization does 298 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 5: that for the first couple of months. That's like that 299 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 5: is the bootcamp of the Sea ORC. And the second 300 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 5: type of person that Scientology manages to recruit at this 301 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 5: point is people from third world countries or very poor 302 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 5: or oppressed areas like Eastern Europe or Central and South America. 303 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 5: And they will promise those people that they will bring 304 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 5: them to the United States and get them a visa 305 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 5: and give them a how you know, somewhere to live 306 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 5: and food, and all they have to do is work. 307 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 5: And for many of those people, the the idea of 308 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 5: going to the unit and living in the United States 309 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 5: under any circumstances where a guaranteed job and food is 310 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 5: like is like a dream come true. And they don't 311 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 5: have access to the Internet, and they you know, they 312 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 5: wouldn't know what to google anyway. They're just told by someone, look, 313 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 5: you know, here's an opportunity for you. And so you find, 314 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 5: like in Clearwater that a bunch of those Sea OGG 315 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 5: members down there hardly speak English and are literally have 316 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 5: become indentured servants because now they're stuck they can't get out. 317 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 5: And it really is a human trafficking violation. This aspect 318 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 5: of scientology is in violation of human trafficking laws, and 319 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 5: if the law enforcement agencies responsible for that could get 320 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 5: their act together, they would be able to bring an 321 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 5: effective case on human trafficking. 322 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: Mike, you're talking about Clearwater again. Okay. My grandparents retired 323 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: in Clearwater and I was there quite often visiting them. 324 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: When I was a kid and my grandfather would tell 325 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 2: me stories and I was never sure how true they were. 326 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 5: But there were. 327 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: Stories about how the city of Clearwater was being taken 328 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 2: over by Scientology, like lots large I guess large amounts 329 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: of property were being purchased, their Scientology was infiltrating the 330 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 2: local government there, and a lot of how everything was working. 331 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: Was there any truth. 332 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 5: To that, Uh, that's absolutely true. In fact, there was 333 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 5: a except for the taking over the government and I'll explain. Okay. 334 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 5: There was a really, really good article written by a 335 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 5: reporter for the Tampa Bay Times called Tracy McManus last 336 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 5: year where she documented the efforts that Scientology has made 337 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 5: to buy property in downtown Clearwater and look, Scientology for 338 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 5: a long time has owned a lot of property in 339 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 5: downtown clear Water. It dominates the downtown area with its buildings, 340 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 5: but it had David Muskavich wanted a certain piece of 341 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 5: property that was owned by the Clearwater Aquarium, which is, 342 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 5: you know, the home to winter the Dolphin, and the 343 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 5: people in charge of the aquarium did not want to 344 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 5: sell it to Scientology. They wanted to sell it to 345 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 5: the city and had an agreement with the city that 346 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 5: the city was going to purchase it and David and 347 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 5: for four million dollars or something. And David Muscavich one 348 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 5: of this piece of property so badly. He came in 349 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 5: and offered fourteen million for it for a piece of 350 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 5: vacant property, a block, you know, half a block of 351 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 5: vacant property in downtown clear Water. And they and David Yates, 352 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 5: who was the head of the aquarium, said I'm sorry, 353 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,719 Speaker 5: I made a commitment to the city. I am going 354 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 5: to sell it to the city for their redevelopment plans. 355 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 5: And David Muskavich had a hissy fit, started accused and 356 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 5: putting out all sorts of of I like, he had 357 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 5: lawyers writing letters to Panelis County into this and that 358 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 5: about how David Yeats was a criminal and that he 359 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 5: was ripping off the he was getting paid too much 360 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 5: and he was ripping off the city and blah blah blah, 361 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 5: blah blah blah, and went on an all out campaign 362 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 5: against David Yeates. Mascavitch had been trying to smooth schmooze 363 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 5: the city for a long time and saying I will 364 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 5: redevelop downtown clear Water and we'll bring in a movie theater, 365 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 5: and we'll do this, and we'll do that, and we'll 366 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 5: you know, all these fancy presentations that were done. And 367 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 5: when the city bought that lot, he went, you know what, 368 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 5: fuck you all when no longer cooperating and cut all 369 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 5: communication with the city, And then a whole bunch of 370 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 5: individuals signed tall just started purchasing property in downtown Clearwater 371 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 5: for cash. Wow, and against that, right, against that, and 372 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 5: bought like a hundred properties. And downtown Clearwater has it's 373 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 5: not that big, matt as you know, it's like a 374 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 5: it's not a very big place. Most of Clearwater exists 375 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 5: at the beach and out by the mall, and downtown 376 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 5: is not that big. And so they basically bought the 377 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 5: whole town. Interestingly, the one thing they have never been 378 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 5: able to do is get anybody elected. You know. Scientology 379 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 5: has claimed that they had like twelve thousand members in 380 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 5: the Clearwater community and they have a huge voting block 381 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 5: and blah blah blah, and that's bullshit. I known that 382 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 5: that was bullshit it for a long time, but now 383 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 5: in particular because most of the people that are in 384 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 5: the Sea Organization there, which is most of the Scientologists 385 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 5: come from Eastern Europe and Central America. They can't even vote. 386 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 5: They're not citizens that can vote, so they have no 387 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 5: big voting blocks. So last year, me and another one 388 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 5: of my buddies in that lives down there and who 389 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 5: appeared on the Aftermath, Aaron Smith Levin Leah and I 390 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 5: did a show or two shows about Clearwater actually, and 391 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 5: we interviewed this guy called Mark Bunker. And Mark Bunker 392 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 5: anybody who watched the show will remember the episode where 393 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 5: Mark Bunker was sitting on a bench in a park 394 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 5: that Scientology owns and six police cars came to a 395 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 5: victim from the bench. Okay, we jokingly said to Mark Bunker, 396 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 5: you should run for mayor, and then became a little 397 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 5: more serious about it. And there was an election earlier 398 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 5: this year for the city Council of the City of Clearwater, 399 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 5: and Mark Bunker ran in that election, and he ran 400 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 5: basically exclusively on the basis of I'm not scared of Scientology, 401 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 5: and I will say the word, and most politicians in 402 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 5: Clearwater have been afraid to even out of the word. 403 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 5: They will say the organization in our midst, or all 404 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 5: religious all religions deserve equal treatment, and all this sort 405 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 5: of mealy moushit and every citizen of Clearwater is tearing 406 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 5: their hair out, like what are we going to do 407 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 5: about this? Like they've taken over our city? What are 408 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 5: we going to do? And Bunker came in and said, 409 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 5: I'm not scared of him. I'll say the word scientology, scientology, scientology, scientology, Scientology. 410 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 5: Then took one of the guys who was running against 411 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 5: him and tried to feed that guy a bunch of 412 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 5: you know, like oppo research on Mark Bunker, and it 413 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 5: it's it's such a joke because Bunker ended up winning 414 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 5: this election for the seat on the City of Clearwater. 415 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 5: The guy that Scientology back that they gave all their vote. 416 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 5: I mean, Bunker got like six five hundred votes. There 417 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 5: was five people in this race. The second to bottom 418 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 5: guy who was the Scientology candidate, got two thousand, and 419 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 5: that means that there was not more than two thousand 420 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 5: Scientology votes in the city of Clearwater. Because you can 421 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 5: be sure that everyone who was eligible to vote was 422 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,479 Speaker 5: being You got to get out and vote against Bunker. 423 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 5: You got to get out and vote against Bunker. You 424 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 5: got to get out and vote against Bunker. And he 425 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 5: didn't even come close. So Scientology has not got great 426 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 5: police political clout in clear Water through the city officials, 427 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 5: but they have great economic clout. 428 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: Let's pause for a moment for a brief word from 429 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and then we'll return, diving even deeper into 430 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: the story of Scientology. 431 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 5: And we're back with more from Mike Render. 432 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: Speaking clout right and aims of the organization. This brings 433 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: me to one question that I think is on the 434 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: mind of a lot of our fellow listeners. 435 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 5: Here. 436 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: Maybe it's best to ask what do you see as 437 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: the primary aims or goals of modern scientology, Or maybe 438 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: it's better to simplify it and say, what do you 439 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: see as the future of scientology? Like what do they 440 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: actually want? 441 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 5: What they actually want is they want the world to 442 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 5: become a scientology world. I mean, their aim is to 443 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 5: bring everyone and all governments and all government agencies into 444 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 5: alignment with the goals of Scientology. That is the stated 445 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 5: purpose of the Office of Special Affairs. As a matter 446 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 5: of fact, they want everyone to you know, the way 447 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 5: they put it is to say, we want everybody to 448 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 5: have the benefits of scientology that we have. What that 449 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 5: translates into is we want everybody to be a scientologist, 450 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 5: and that translates into we want to be in control 451 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 5: of everything in a scientology fashion and run it like 452 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 5: a scientology show. We want to take over Clearwater and 453 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 5: have it be a Scientology city. We want to take 454 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 5: over Los Angeles. We want to take over the entire 455 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 5: United States. No, actually, we want to take over the 456 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 5: whole world. They do want. I mean you hear scientologists 457 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 5: talk all the time about a cleared planet, and a 458 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 5: cleared planet means everybody is clear, and clear is a 459 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 5: state in scientology that is achieved through auditing of getting 460 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 5: rid of your reactive mind, something that Hubbard invented too 461 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 5: in you know, we're not going to get into that, 462 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:32,239 Speaker 5: but scientology wants to like every religion. Look, this is 463 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 5: not unique. Scientology just has much bigger aspirations. They are 464 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 5: like the you know, the flea on the leg of 465 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 5: the elephant climbing up the elephant going stand back, I'm coming. 466 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 5: They're tiny, but they believe that they're going to take 467 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 5: over the entire world. And this is part of the 468 00:31:53,000 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 5: nutty mindset that fundamentalists anythings have. They believe that truly 469 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 5: believe that they are going to ultimately prevail and Ultimately 470 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 5: they will be the dominant force of over all of mankind. 471 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 5: Go ask a Jehovah's witness, they will tell you exactly 472 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 5: the same thing. Go ask a fundamentalist of any any 473 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 5: religious organization, a fundamentalist Christian. Everybody is going to be 474 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 5: ultimately a good Christian or they ain't going to exist anymore. 475 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,479 Speaker 5: They're going to be wiped out in the Second Coming 476 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 5: or the Armageddon or whatever. Scientologists believe the same thing. Ultimately, 477 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 5: everybody is going to be a scientologist, and that's what 478 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 5: they're working to accomplish on the way. That means we're 479 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 5: gonna get a lot of money, we're gonna have a 480 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 5: lot of control over a lot of people. 481 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: That was well said and more than a bit disturbing, 482 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to be honest with you. But I think it may 483 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: an important point that that's not unique to any one 484 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: fundamentalist organization. They're all proselytizing ultimately, right. They're expansion oriented. 485 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, But the good news, Ben is scientology may be 486 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 5: expansion oriented, but they're expansion handicapped. They are not growing. 487 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 5: They are getting smaller and smaller and smaller, and that 488 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 5: is due to information that the end of scientology was 489 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 5: predicted with the beginning of the Internet. The Internet is 490 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 5: the antidote to all high control mind control organizations that 491 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 5: exist because information kills them, and when information is easily accessible, 492 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 5: it is their death. The trick of it is if 493 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 5: they have intimidated enough people into believing that it is 494 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 5: dangerous to provide that information, then it doesn't get out 495 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 5: so easily. And once the information is out, it's it's 496 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 5: it's rat poison. It kills off and and ultimately cuts 497 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 5: off the source of new members, and that it's going 498 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 5: to take a while for Scientology to disappear altogether. It's 499 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 5: hot like getting rid of a three billion dollar acid 500 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 5: at organization is not easy, but it's it's diminishing, not increasing. 501 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Mike Render, thank you so much for taking the time 502 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: to speak with us and our audience today. This has 503 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: been a off Mike everyone. We checked with Mike in 504 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: advance and we essentially said how much time do you 505 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: have and we hope that we have it. We haven't 506 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: made you regret regret taking this this journey with us. Mike, 507 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: you have a blog that we've mentioned before, but we 508 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: didn't say explicitly the name. I would like to point 509 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: out it's Mike rendersblog dot org where you can learn 510 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: more about Mike's work, more about his experiences, and of course, 511 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: as we mentioned at the top of the show, please 512 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: do check out the podcast, which is Scientology Fair Game. 513 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: In this you will find a deep dive, an exploration 514 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: that is exclusive that that goes into much more detail 515 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: about some of the things we've explored today, when we've 516 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: just scratched the surface. I think it's fair to say. 517 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: And you know, Mike, we will have to have you 518 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 2: back on because we have so many more questions. But 519 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 2: we can't thank you enough for spending your time with 520 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 2: us today. Really appreciate it. 521 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 5: Well, thank you all. It's been a real pleasure and 522 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 5: I will happily come back whenever you ready to get 523 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 5: overwhelmed with useless information from Mike Rindo once again. 524 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: All right, yeah, we're ready. We want to go full clear, right, 525 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 2: We're down. 526 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 5: We're down for this, alrighty. 527 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't 528 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. 529 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 5: It's right. Let us know what you think. 530 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 3: You can reach you to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where 531 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 3: we exist on Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and 532 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 3: TikTok work Conspiracy Stuff Show. 533 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 2: If you want to call us dial one eight three 534 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 2: three std WYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes. 535 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 2: Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if 536 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air. 537 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 2: If you got more to say than can fit in 538 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old 539 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 2: fashioned email. 540 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: We are the entity to read every single piece of 541 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the 542 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 543 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 544 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 545 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.