1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:21,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin High Happiness Lab listeners, Doctor Laurie Santo's here today. 2 00:00:21,596 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 1: I'm sharing with you an episode from another Pushkin podcast, 3 00:00:24,676 --> 00:00:28,716 Speaker 1: Revisionist History. You might be familiar with Revisionist History. It's 4 00:00:28,756 --> 00:00:32,156 Speaker 1: best selling author Malcolm Gladwell's podcast that re examines something 5 00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:34,356 Speaker 1: from the past and asks whether we got it right 6 00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:38,156 Speaker 1: the first time. This season, Malcolm's obsessed with something that's 7 00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 1: close to my heart as a scientist experiments. In this episode, 8 00:00:42,196 --> 00:00:45,996 Speaker 1: Malcolm dives into a particularly fascinating human challenge trial known 9 00:00:46,036 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 1: as the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. It took place near the 10 00:00:49,396 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 1: end of World War Two. In the trial, thirty six 11 00:00:52,516 --> 00:00:56,116 Speaker 1: volunteers participated in a study designed to investigate the physical 12 00:00:56,116 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: and psychological effects of starvation, along with the best way 13 00:00:59,756 --> 00:01:03,076 Speaker 1: to refeed people after they've been malnourished for many months. 14 00:01:03,636 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: The goal was to help inform relief efforts during and 15 00:01:06,196 --> 00:01:09,316 Speaker 1: after the war, but the study itself was really hard 16 00:01:09,356 --> 00:01:12,556 Speaker 1: on the volunteers. As you can probably imagine, for an 17 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:15,076 Speaker 1: entire year, they lived on the campus at the University 18 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:18,076 Speaker 1: of Minnesota and ate only what the scientists allowed them 19 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: to eat. The men lost a lot of weight, of course, 20 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:25,156 Speaker 1: but suffered many other effects, both physical and psychological, and 21 00:01:25,276 --> 00:01:27,436 Speaker 1: yet most of them stuck it out for the full year. 22 00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: These days, a human challenge trial like this would violate 23 00:01:30,956 --> 00:01:34,116 Speaker 1: a ton of ethical guidelines, but many of the volunteers 24 00:01:34,196 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: left a fascinating record behind in the form of oral histories. 25 00:01:38,036 --> 00:01:41,796 Speaker 1: I found their stories fascinating, and I think you will too. Okay, 26 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 1: here's our visionist history. Minneapolis, nineteen forty four. Busy sidewalks, 27 00:01:48,996 --> 00:01:53,236 Speaker 1: miles of street car tracks, businessmen in gray suits and hats, 28 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 1: shop girls in knee length skirts. The Mississippi snakes through 29 00:01:57,596 --> 00:02:02,596 Speaker 1: the middle of the city. The Fauchet Tower looms overhead. Overseas, 30 00:02:02,636 --> 00:02:05,236 Speaker 1: the war in Europe and the South Pacific still rages. 31 00:02:05,716 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 1: So many of the younger men are gone, but there 32 00:02:08,156 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 1: is bustle and energy that makes the downtown feel like 33 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 1: Chicago or New York City unless you look closely and 34 00:02:17,916 --> 00:02:20,796 Speaker 1: pay attention day after day. And if you did that, 35 00:02:21,396 --> 00:02:25,156 Speaker 1: you would see a strange sight that set Minneapolis in 36 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:28,396 Speaker 1: that moment apart. You would see men in groups of 37 00:02:28,396 --> 00:02:32,596 Speaker 1: two walk in the streets early twenties, dressed identically in 38 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 1: khakis and white shirts. They would seem healthy at first, 39 00:02:36,876 --> 00:02:39,396 Speaker 1: but then as the fall of nineteen forty four turns 40 00:02:39,436 --> 00:02:42,316 Speaker 1: into the long winter and spring of nineteen forty five. 41 00:02:42,956 --> 00:02:46,636 Speaker 1: You would see them start to change. You'd see them 42 00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:49,116 Speaker 1: start to move slowly, as if they were old men. 43 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:54,076 Speaker 1: Their clothes are one, then two, then three sizes too big, eyes, 44 00:02:54,236 --> 00:02:58,516 Speaker 1: hollowed out, hair thinning, skin like parchment. They sit in 45 00:02:58,556 --> 00:03:02,196 Speaker 1: restaurants and soda fountains and drink cup after cup of coffee, 46 00:03:02,316 --> 00:03:05,556 Speaker 1: but never eat ever, even if you invited one of 47 00:03:05,556 --> 00:03:07,956 Speaker 1: them to join your table, they just stare at your 48 00:03:07,956 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: food with blank then move on, shuffling down the sidewalk 49 00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:15,836 Speaker 1: across the Mississippi and back to a warn of rooms 50 00:03:15,916 --> 00:03:20,236 Speaker 1: under the football stadium at the University of Minnesota. Back 51 00:03:20,476 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 1: to the Department of Physiological Hygiene, run by a man 52 00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 1: named Ansel Keys. What does he look like? Ansel Keys? 53 00:03:32,196 --> 00:03:34,676 Speaker 1: He was short, you know, I think that bothered him 54 00:03:34,716 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 1: a little bit. He was very muscular, He was very 55 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:44,716 Speaker 1: i think, very good looking in his youth. That's Sarah Tracy, 56 00:03:45,076 --> 00:03:48,036 Speaker 1: a historian at the University of Oklahoma who's writing a 57 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:50,476 Speaker 1: biography of Ansel Keys. Do you know he was a 58 00:03:50,556 --> 00:03:55,076 Speaker 1: child genius. He was one of lewis Terman's fifteen hundred 59 00:03:55,116 --> 00:03:58,436 Speaker 1: gifted children whom he tracked. He was a termite. Yes, 60 00:03:58,556 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: he was a termite. You know about the termite? I do, 61 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 1: I do. The termites were a group of children with 62 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:08,036 Speaker 1: super high IQs. You had to be very smart to 63 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:11,556 Speaker 1: be a termite. He was very self possessed as a child. 64 00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 1: You know, if he set his mind to doing something, 65 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:18,476 Speaker 1: he did it. He left high school three times, once 66 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:23,236 Speaker 1: to become a powder monkey in some mines gold mines, 67 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:28,116 Speaker 1: wants to become a lumberjack and wants to collect bat 68 00:04:28,196 --> 00:04:32,876 Speaker 1: guano from caves in Arizona and so. Keys was America's 69 00:04:32,956 --> 00:04:37,476 Speaker 1: first true celebrity doctor, a mountain climber, an adventurer. He 70 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:39,356 Speaker 1: was on the cover of Time back when that was 71 00:04:39,436 --> 00:04:42,876 Speaker 1: the real measure of celebrity. He wrote best selling cookbooks 72 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,476 Speaker 1: with his wife. He had a fabulous villainear Naples. The 73 00:04:46,636 --> 00:04:50,636 Speaker 1: Army has developed a now famous k Ration, the completely 74 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 1: streamlined meal. Back before the Second World War, the Army 75 00:04:54,436 --> 00:04:56,636 Speaker 1: came to him and asked him to make a high 76 00:04:56,636 --> 00:05:01,676 Speaker 1: calorie preprepared meal. It was called the k Ration K 77 00:05:02,036 --> 00:05:05,156 Speaker 1: for Keys, of course, and millions of gis ended up 78 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 1: carrying his creation into battle. Originally designed for para truths 79 00:05:09,916 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: K proved ideal for tank busters, commandos and all isolated units. 80 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:20,636 Speaker 1: Each package contains a balanced by them rich meal. With 81 00:05:20,756 --> 00:05:23,556 Speaker 1: the K ration under his belt, An sol Keys then 82 00:05:23,636 --> 00:05:28,436 Speaker 1: turned his attention to an even bigger question, one that 83 00:05:28,436 --> 00:05:33,116 Speaker 1: had long obsessed those who study human physiology. What happens 84 00:05:33,156 --> 00:05:37,196 Speaker 1: to people when, from months on end you deny them food. 85 00:05:40,436 --> 00:05:43,476 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 86 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:52,036 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 87 00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 1: about an audacious experiment conducted at the end of the 88 00:05:55,596 --> 00:05:58,556 Speaker 1: Second World War by one of the most remarkable figures 89 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:09,596 Speaker 1: in twentieth century signs An sol Keys so verses at 90 00:06:09,636 --> 00:06:11,716 Speaker 1: the tape, if you could just state your name and 91 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:15,996 Speaker 1: the location and date of your birth. This is Earl Heckman, 92 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:19,156 Speaker 1: living at eight eight eight had a line drive in 93 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 1: elves in Illinois, and I was born on December one, 94 00:06:23,316 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen. The best record we have of what exactly 95 00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:30,556 Speaker 1: happened in ansel Kes's laboratory is in a box of 96 00:06:30,636 --> 00:06:33,956 Speaker 1: taped interviews stored away in the archives of the Library 97 00:06:33,956 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 1: of Congress. Each tape runs roughly two hours in length. 98 00:06:38,436 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 1: They contained the recollections of eighteen of ansel Kes's subjects 99 00:06:43,116 --> 00:06:46,436 Speaker 1: who sat down in their eighties to leave a permanent 100 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:51,436 Speaker 1: record of their experience. My name is Sam leg I 101 00:06:51,556 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 1: was born in Hackensack, New Jersey, on November tenth, nineteen sixteen. 102 00:06:56,316 --> 00:06:59,076 Speaker 1: Max Campbell Men with an M in the middle initial 103 00:06:59,876 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 1: and November seventh, nineteen twenty. The interviews were conducted by 104 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: two researchers from Johns Hopkins University, Richard Semba and Leah. 105 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 1: The tapes were given to the library shortly thereafter, where 106 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 1: they have sat on a shelf ever since, untouched, a 107 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 1: forgotten record of eighteen voices talking about an experience none 108 00:07:22,476 --> 00:07:25,756 Speaker 1: of them will ever forget. It was known as the 109 00:07:25,836 --> 00:07:33,236 Speaker 1: Minnesota Starvation Experiment. We were in Stadium South Tower, the 110 00:07:33,276 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: football stadium. Underneath the stadium had quite a complex for 111 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:40,996 Speaker 1: research there, and there was a We lived in a 112 00:07:41,036 --> 00:07:47,076 Speaker 1: dormitory there. All the activities at the university were open 113 00:07:47,156 --> 00:07:51,756 Speaker 1: to us. During their off hours, the men would roam 114 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:54,436 Speaker 1: the city. People living near the university saw them all 115 00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: the time, young men in white shirts and khaki pants, 116 00:07:58,236 --> 00:08:02,916 Speaker 1: taking long walks along the Mississippi, sitting in restaurants drinking coffee, 117 00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:07,876 Speaker 1: but never eating a thing. The men called themselves the 118 00:08:07,956 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: guinea pigs. We were all in excellent physical health, and 119 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 1: as far as as far as they knew, we were 120 00:08:16,156 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 1: all in good metal health at the time. We did 121 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:20,876 Speaker 1: not stay that way during the experiment, but we were. 122 00:08:23,396 --> 00:08:25,676 Speaker 1: You can go to the Library of Congress and listen 123 00:08:25,716 --> 00:08:27,716 Speaker 1: to the tapes in the reading room yourself if you like. 124 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 1: You might end up wondering what was ansel Keys trying 125 00:08:31,516 --> 00:08:35,116 Speaker 1: to accomplish by putting his subjects through so much? And 126 00:08:35,356 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 1: was it worth it? When I hear somebody say, oh, 127 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 1: I'm simply starved, I know they don't know what they're saying, 128 00:08:43,956 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 1: because there's a real difference between what your body craves 129 00:08:48,636 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 1: for from the zur result of starvation than what you 130 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:59,756 Speaker 1: normally feel as hunger. The second episode of this season 131 00:08:59,796 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 1: of Provision's history was devoted in large part to the 132 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 1: story of the famous iodine experiments in Akron, Ohio during 133 00:09:06,276 --> 00:09:09,356 Speaker 1: the First World War. A doctor named David Marine was 134 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to treat goiter, a condition 135 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 1: that causes severe enlargement of the thyroid gland. Goiter was 136 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: widespread in the early part of the twentieth century millions 137 00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:23,876 Speaker 1: of people walked around with baseball sized bulges on their necks. 138 00:09:24,436 --> 00:09:27,596 Speaker 1: Marine wanted to see if regular doses of iodine could 139 00:09:27,596 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 1: solve the problem, so he convinced the Akrone school board 140 00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 1: to let him run a study on thousands of schoolgirls 141 00:09:33,836 --> 00:09:36,796 Speaker 1: feeding them regular doses of iodine to see if it 142 00:09:36,876 --> 00:09:42,636 Speaker 1: prevented goiter. Could that experiment, I wondered, be conducted today. 143 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: I called up the bioethicist Art Kaplan, who teaches at 144 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 1: New York University today. To attempt this experiment to prevent 145 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:58,356 Speaker 1: goiter would be a usually different experience for that researcher 146 00:09:58,676 --> 00:10:02,276 Speaker 1: and for the subjects, the school board and their families. 147 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:05,276 Speaker 1: For one thing, when that experiment was done, there were 148 00:10:05,316 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 1: no federal regulations. There was no federal overs of what 149 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: was going on. These days, most experiments involving human subjects 150 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:20,436 Speaker 1: are closely regulated. They involve consent forms, disclosure statements, the 151 00:10:20,556 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 1: right to drop out of a study at any given time. 152 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 1: Kaplan's point was that, compared to today, medical research in 153 00:10:27,476 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: the past starts to look like the Wild West. If 154 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:33,276 Speaker 1: you could find the money and talk people into participating, 155 00:10:33,756 --> 00:10:41,796 Speaker 1: off you went. In Alabama between the nineteen thirties, and 156 00:10:41,836 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, the Public Health Service launched the Tuskegee 157 00:10:45,516 --> 00:10:48,916 Speaker 1: Syphilis Study, where a group of African American men were 158 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:51,876 Speaker 1: tricked into signing up for what they thought was medical treatment, 159 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:54,756 Speaker 1: when in fact, all the researchers wanted to do was 160 00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: to find out what happened when you let untreated syphilis 161 00:10:57,596 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 1: run its course. It was maybe the lowest moment in 162 00:11:01,076 --> 00:11:06,236 Speaker 1: twentieth century American medicine. In early nineteen sixties, the Yale 163 00:11:06,236 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 1: psychologist Stanley Milgram ran his infamous Obedient and Study two 164 00:11:10,636 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 1: eighty five volts, where Milgram deceived otherwise unsuspecting subjects into 165 00:11:17,756 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: thinking that they were delivering high voltage electric shocks to 166 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 1: someone they'd never met. I absolutely repairs to answer anymore. 167 00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:26,756 Speaker 1: Cut me out of me. You can't all reader, cut 168 00:11:26,796 --> 00:11:31,596 Speaker 1: the out met the next words green place. In today's era, 169 00:11:31,956 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 1: the number one consideration in any proposed experiment is its 170 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 1: effect on the subject. Back then, the number one consideration 171 00:11:40,756 --> 00:11:43,316 Speaker 1: was the value of what you could learn from the subject. 172 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:46,316 Speaker 1: The subject was thought of like a soldier in battle, 173 00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:49,876 Speaker 1: someone whose well being was secondary to the larger cause. 174 00:11:52,196 --> 00:11:55,356 Speaker 1: The answer to the vitamin question is not pill, but 175 00:11:55,596 --> 00:12:00,236 Speaker 1: good food. In plenty of variety. According to doctor Key, 176 00:12:00,956 --> 00:12:03,476 Speaker 1: the vitamins were missing from his food. A soldier might 177 00:12:03,516 --> 00:12:07,636 Speaker 1: have to take concentrated vitamins. If he had vitamins but 178 00:12:07,756 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 1: no food, he was still are The best way, naturally 179 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:15,276 Speaker 1: is the supply vitamins of the food. Now, remember the 180 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:17,956 Speaker 1: stature of Ansal Keys has attained during the Second World War. 181 00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:22,636 Speaker 1: He's the world's greatest nutrition researcher. He's closely involved with 182 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 1: the war effort. He just developed the k ration to 183 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:28,316 Speaker 1: great acclaim, and he looks around the world and he 184 00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: sees millions of people suffering from severe malnutrition. The war 185 00:12:32,596 --> 00:12:36,996 Speaker 1: disrupted the food supply of entire continents. Millions of people 186 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 1: were in concentration camps, reduced to skeletons. Ansal Keys knew 187 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 1: how little his field understood about prolonged malnutrition. What was 188 00:12:46,316 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 1: the effect of long term hunger on physical wellbeing, un 189 00:12:49,836 --> 00:12:53,236 Speaker 1: psychological health, and what was the best way to bring 190 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:57,436 Speaker 1: the undernurshed back to health. What was more important how 191 00:12:57,516 --> 00:13:05,156 Speaker 1: much you've fed someone or what you've fed someone. So 192 00:13:05,396 --> 00:13:10,396 Speaker 1: Keys designs an experiment. He would need thirty subjects for 193 00:13:10,436 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 1: at least a year. The first three months would be 194 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: the control period. Each research subject would be stabilized at 195 00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 1: what Keys estimated to be their correct weight, three full 196 00:13:21,836 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 1: meals a day intake matching outtake. Then after stabilization would 197 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:31,316 Speaker 1: come six months of severe calorie restriction, with the goal 198 00:13:31,356 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 1: that each man losed twenty five percent of his ideal weight. 199 00:13:35,116 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 1: Exercise would be mandatory throughout the study, twenty two miles 200 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 1: a week of walking up and down the Mississippi or 201 00:13:41,636 --> 00:13:45,756 Speaker 1: through downtown Minneapolis, all through the long Minnesota winter and 202 00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: through the following summer. Each participant tested on a regular 203 00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:55,516 Speaker 1: basis blood samples, sperm samples, body fat, blood volumes. The 204 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:58,196 Speaker 1: men would be asked to keep journals and record their 205 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:02,316 Speaker 1: thoughts and dreams, and then, after six months of starvation, 206 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:07,196 Speaker 1: three months of recovery. The crucial part. Keys planned to 207 00:14:07,236 --> 00:14:12,756 Speaker 1: test out different rehabilitatian diets with varying amounts of calories, protein, 208 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:20,996 Speaker 1: and vitamins. The experiment begins on November nineteenth, nineteen forty four. 209 00:14:21,596 --> 00:14:25,036 Speaker 1: Keys gathers his guinea pigs at the Laboratory of Physiological 210 00:14:25,116 --> 00:14:28,996 Speaker 1: Hygiene underneath the football stadium. He stands in front of 211 00:14:29,036 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 1: all thirty six and gives them a speech. He had 212 00:14:31,596 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 1: stayed up the previous night, practicing in front of his wife. Quote. 213 00:14:36,236 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: We are here because of the problem of relief feeding 214 00:14:39,036 --> 00:14:42,876 Speaker 1: in general, and particularly in the war devastated areas. Today, 215 00:14:43,396 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: you can imagine a moment keys the brilliant scientist bringing 216 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:49,676 Speaker 1: the group of young men before him under his spell. 217 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:54,196 Speaker 1: Human misery and want are qualities of life which properly 218 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:59,916 Speaker 1: bring an emotional response, But starvation is quantitative and must 219 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:05,556 Speaker 1: be met with quantitative answers. Grand words tailor made for 220 00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:08,876 Speaker 1: men of idealism, eager for a chance to serve their country. 221 00:15:09,716 --> 00:15:13,996 Speaker 1: And then are you ready to begin? And a deafening 222 00:15:14,076 --> 00:15:36,236 Speaker 1: cheer goes up. When we started this experiment, we were 223 00:15:36,276 --> 00:15:39,796 Speaker 1: all given the same amount of proof. Right. Listening to 224 00:15:39,836 --> 00:15:42,956 Speaker 1: the oral histories from the veterans of the Minnesota starvation 225 00:15:42,996 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 1: experiment is a strange experience. We had six slices of 226 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 1: bread for they take away two slices and four slices, 227 00:15:52,356 --> 00:15:56,836 Speaker 1: six slices, and we still didn't lose weight. Then they 228 00:15:56,836 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 1: started taking away your potato. The men are all at 229 00:16:01,556 --> 00:16:04,636 Speaker 1: the end of their lives. Nearly sixty years have passed 230 00:16:04,676 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: since the experiment ended, But rarely do any of them say, 231 00:16:08,356 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 1: I don't remember or I don't know. They know, and 232 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:17,276 Speaker 1: they remember, and their memories are precise. In fact, it 233 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 1: seems like they've been reliving the long year between the 234 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 1: fall of nineteen forty four and the fall of nineteen 235 00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:31,236 Speaker 1: forty five ever since. Do you remember what your lowest 236 00:16:31,236 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: weight got down to? One hundred and thirty four? I 237 00:16:37,756 --> 00:16:42,076 Speaker 1: believe what was sort of your standard weight entering one. 238 00:16:44,276 --> 00:16:49,236 Speaker 1: I went in at two twenty, and they they standardized 239 00:16:49,316 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 1: me down to one eighty before they really experiment began, 240 00:16:54,316 --> 00:16:57,956 Speaker 1: So I got down to one thirty four. The thirty 241 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:01,956 Speaker 1: six subjects started the experiment with high hopes. Keys had 242 00:17:02,036 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 1: arranged for them to take classes at the university. The 243 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: men themselves organized dramatic productions and planned to hold educational seminars. 244 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 1: Many wanted to prepare themselves for relief work after the 245 00:17:13,476 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: war was over. In the recruitment leaflet Keys sent out, 246 00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 1: he mentioned the intriguing possibilities in the fact that there 247 00:17:21,676 --> 00:17:25,076 Speaker 1: was an all women's dormitory nearby for those, as he 248 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:27,956 Speaker 1: put it, who wanted to be a guinea pig by 249 00:17:28,036 --> 00:17:38,636 Speaker 1: day and a wolf by night. What happened after once 250 00:17:38,676 --> 00:17:43,116 Speaker 1: the semi servation started, things went downhill very fast. Well, 251 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:46,076 Speaker 1: not real fast. It didn't seem much change at first. 252 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:51,116 Speaker 1: But when we got down to the to the place 253 00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:55,036 Speaker 1: where we really knew what the word hunger meant. Instead 254 00:17:55,036 --> 00:17:58,596 Speaker 1: of just saying I'm hungry, let's go eat, which isn't 255 00:17:58,596 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 1: the word hunger, I mean, it's a different different when 256 00:18:01,356 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 1: we really felt pangs of hunger, and we'd begin thinking 257 00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:13,116 Speaker 1: about food most of the time, and so forth, we 258 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:17,236 Speaker 1: began to be more and more irritable. After the three 259 00:18:17,236 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 1: months of initial rigor, while they stabilize their weight, the 260 00:18:21,036 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 1: severe calorie restrictions kicked in. Everyone now got just two 261 00:18:24,916 --> 00:18:30,276 Speaker 1: meals a day cabbage, potatoes, bread slices, Ruda Vegas, and 262 00:18:30,396 --> 00:18:34,436 Speaker 1: occasional treats of macaroni and cheese. I was one of 263 00:18:34,436 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 1: the few, now I shouldn't say few, but I was 264 00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 1: one of the many that metally was transfixed on cookbooks, 265 00:18:43,276 --> 00:18:45,796 Speaker 1: and I collected probably one hundred cooks books. I would 266 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:50,396 Speaker 1: read cookbooks like he would read readers digest. Some of 267 00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 1: the men would walk into Minneapolis, sit in restaurants and 268 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 1: watch other people eat the way they might have once 269 00:18:56,756 --> 00:19:00,356 Speaker 1: gone to a concert or watched a play. They dreamt 270 00:19:00,396 --> 00:19:03,916 Speaker 1: about food, They argued about food, at meal times, they 271 00:19:04,036 --> 00:19:07,436 Speaker 1: fixated on their plates. I mean we would lick the plates, 272 00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:10,676 Speaker 1: and I remember I heard that caused a bit of 273 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:13,556 Speaker 1: that caused a bit of tention. I think it did, 274 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 1: particularly evening, for instance, one of the first that I 275 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 1: saw doing that, and I thought, that's disgusting. I'm pretty sCOD. 276 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 1: I were doing it myself, so oh yeah, I mean 277 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 1: I just thought, this is that you would actually degrade 278 00:19:32,996 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 1: yourself to the extender looking up plate, give me a break, 279 00:19:36,236 --> 00:19:42,276 Speaker 1: and that pretty soon we were all looking it. Coffee 280 00:19:42,476 --> 00:19:44,916 Speaker 1: was one of the few indulgences they were allowed, so 281 00:19:44,956 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: they drank it to excess, twelve eighteen cups a day. 282 00:19:48,636 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: They chewed enormous amounts of bubblegum. They began souping their meals, 283 00:19:52,996 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 1: their word for adding water to everything they were given 284 00:19:55,836 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: to create the sense that their portions were bigger. One 285 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 1: of the men took a day to see to have 286 00:20:01,716 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 1: and have not, starring Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. I'm sorry, Slim, 287 00:20:07,836 --> 00:20:10,116 Speaker 1: but I still say you're awfu good. And I wouldn't, oh, 288 00:20:10,196 --> 00:20:13,556 Speaker 1: I forgot. You wouldn't take anything from anybody, would you. 289 00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 1: That's right. One of the great romantic dramas of the warriors, 290 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:21,596 Speaker 1: but he couldn't concentrate except for the part where Bogart 291 00:20:21,596 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 1: goes to a restaurant. And if you went to a movie, 292 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 1: you weren't particularly interested in a lot of scenes, but 293 00:20:28,516 --> 00:20:31,196 Speaker 1: you noticed every time they ate and what they ate. 294 00:20:32,396 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 1: During the long starvation phase, Keys began to lose some 295 00:20:35,716 --> 00:20:38,916 Speaker 1: of his subjects. One of them went walking through down 296 00:20:38,916 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 1: to Minneapolis, and suddenly his resolve broke. He'd been having 297 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 1: dreams of cannibalism. He went into seventeen different soda fountains 298 00:20:48,876 --> 00:20:53,236 Speaker 1: and gulped down a milkshake at each one. After that, 299 00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:57,756 Speaker 1: we could not go out without a buddy, And if 300 00:20:57,796 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 1: we had a girl friend, we could bring the girlfriend 301 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: and the doctors would interview the girl and goal care 302 00:21:05,796 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: so when we were on a date, she'd be your buddy. Finally, 303 00:21:10,436 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: after six months of starvation recovery, on the final day, 304 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:16,636 Speaker 1: when you were able to finally break, what, do you 305 00:21:16,676 --> 00:21:23,516 Speaker 1: remember what you did? Yes, they did a big breakfast 306 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:28,316 Speaker 1: for us, and that most of us stuffed ourselves. And 307 00:21:28,396 --> 00:21:32,836 Speaker 1: then I think I went downtown and one restaurant and 308 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 1: went in in another meal, and then got out and 309 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:40,556 Speaker 1: went and another one and and just I mean, one 310 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:44,076 Speaker 1: couldn't satisfy your craving for food by filling up your stomach. 311 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:48,356 Speaker 1: Many of us, I think did unreasonable things. I was 312 00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:52,516 Speaker 1: invited out for him, I think a Swiss State dinner, 313 00:21:52,796 --> 00:21:55,516 Speaker 1: and though I was filled to the brim, I went 314 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 1: and stuffed a little bit more on in on top, 315 00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:04,676 Speaker 1: and then got on a bus riding back to the 316 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 1: to the stadium and Jos filling up and down on 317 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:13,396 Speaker 1: all of a sudden I lost it all. Oh no, 318 00:22:13,556 --> 00:22:16,956 Speaker 1: I got off at the next so I felt sorry 319 00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:19,316 Speaker 1: for the guy that was going to have to clean 320 00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:31,196 Speaker 1: it up. Then I didn't stay around. In nineteen fifty five, 321 00:22:31,276 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 1: years after the study ended, Keys published The Biology of 322 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: Human Starvation, his landmark two volume account of what was 323 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 1: learned during the study. To this day, that book helps 324 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 1: doctors understand everything from famine relief to eating disorders. If 325 00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:53,716 Speaker 1: you've ever used the terms metabolism, intermittent fasting, calories in, 326 00:22:53,756 --> 00:22:57,276 Speaker 1: and calories out, then you're talking about concepts that go 327 00:22:57,436 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 1: back to the Keys experiment. Ancil Keys did exactly what 328 00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: he set out to do, but his subjects, they were 329 00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:08,676 Speaker 1: soldiers in a battle whose well being was secondary to 330 00:23:08,676 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 1: the large cause. Years later, the subjects of the starvation 331 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:17,916 Speaker 1: experiment gathered for a reunion. Ansel Keys, by then an 332 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:21,676 Speaker 1: old man, addressed the group. Someone asked him did he 333 00:23:21,716 --> 00:23:24,516 Speaker 1: think the benefits of what was learned were greater than 334 00:23:24,516 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: the costs of what the men went through? He looked 335 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:29,636 Speaker 1: out at all the men in front of him and said, well, 336 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:46,796 Speaker 1: you're all here, aren't you. Out Of all the interviews 337 00:23:46,796 --> 00:23:48,876 Speaker 1: in the box of tapes at the Library of Congress, 338 00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 1: one stands out the testimony of a man named Sam Legg. 339 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:57,116 Speaker 1: His father was a stockbroker in New York City. Sam 340 00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,596 Speaker 1: went to the elite Saint Paul's private school in New 341 00:23:59,636 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 1: Hampshire and then on to Yale. Sam Legg was someone 342 00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:06,116 Speaker 1: the other guinea pigs looked up to, that is until 343 00:24:06,196 --> 00:24:09,516 Speaker 1: his behavior took a sharp turn during the six month 344 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:13,396 Speaker 1: starvation period. His mooths began to swing back and forth. 345 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:17,036 Speaker 1: Like many others, he got obsessed with cookbooks. But his 346 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:21,116 Speaker 1: obsession was pronounced. He took to eating in the corner 347 00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 1: by himself. The historian Todd Tucker interviewed leg for his 348 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:28,596 Speaker 1: book The Great Starvation Experiment. He writes about the way 349 00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:32,916 Speaker 1: Legs started to eat he combined all the food on 350 00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 1: his tray into one pile. He then took his fork 351 00:24:36,556 --> 00:24:39,916 Speaker 1: and stirred it and mashed it all together, the thimblefuls 352 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:43,556 Speaker 1: of fish, chowder, spaghetti, peas, and potatoes, until it was 353 00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:47,956 Speaker 1: a homogeneous, dark gray greenish paste on his plate. He 354 00:24:48,036 --> 00:24:51,876 Speaker 1: then salted and peppered the amalgamation until it was crusted 355 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:55,556 Speaker 1: with seasoning. When he had scraped every morsel off his plate, 356 00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 1: he then picked it up and licked it noisily until 357 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:03,636 Speaker 1: not a molecule of food remained. The slurping noise was 358 00:25:03,716 --> 00:25:09,476 Speaker 1: so loud it made the other men WinCE. In his 359 00:25:09,596 --> 00:25:12,516 Speaker 1: Oral History interview, Mike talks about it how during the 360 00:25:12,556 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 1: starvation phase he felt his character start to slip away. 361 00:25:16,916 --> 00:25:20,756 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a nasty moment. I was walking along 362 00:25:20,796 --> 00:25:23,276 Speaker 1: and I obviously had a buddy, but I don't know 363 00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:31,236 Speaker 1: who it was. And it was deep into the semi starvation, 364 00:25:32,396 --> 00:25:39,076 Speaker 1: and we were tired. When they crossed the street, they 365 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:41,196 Speaker 1: didn't have the energy to take the half step up 366 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:46,076 Speaker 1: onto the sidewalk. We were tired and weak, and so 367 00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 1: we were standing at a corner waiting for a light 368 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 1: or something, and a kid came along on a bicycle 369 00:25:53,716 --> 00:25:58,356 Speaker 1: and he was really moving, pumping away, and I said, 370 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:00,396 Speaker 1: I wonder where he's going. And then I said ted 371 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:03,236 Speaker 1: to myself, I know where he's going. He's going home 372 00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:08,956 Speaker 1: for supper, and I'm not. And then, for a very 373 00:26:08,996 --> 00:26:12,676 Speaker 1: brief I hope it was brief moment, I suddenly hated 374 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:18,876 Speaker 1: that that boy, and that I hate at this point 375 00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:23,516 Speaker 1: to tell you this because it doesn't speak very well 376 00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 1: for me, but I have remembered it with I guess 377 00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:37,476 Speaker 1: horror that that I could feel such a thing so 378 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:43,516 Speaker 1: utterly irrational, But there was, and you ask an experience 379 00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 1: that I remember. I sure remember that the interview is 380 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:56,876 Speaker 1: almost over, Just one final question. There anything that we 381 00:26:56,956 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: haven't talked about, or that I should have asked you, 382 00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:04,476 Speaker 1: or you'd like to add that seem Elivan. You should 383 00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 1: have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. Okay. 384 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: I keep saying to myself that this was because I 385 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:21,116 Speaker 1: was so weak and I was chopping wood and I 386 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:26,876 Speaker 1: got the act caught up in a tree and I 387 00:27:26,876 --> 00:27:30,516 Speaker 1: didn't have an rapid enough reaction time to pull my 388 00:27:30,596 --> 00:27:35,836 Speaker 1: hand away, so I removed some fingers. He was at 389 00:27:35,876 --> 00:27:39,076 Speaker 1: the house of two elderly ladies in Minneapolis who had 390 00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 1: befriended some of the subjects. Leg and his buddy, We're 391 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:44,796 Speaker 1: going watch the women eat, then go outside to split 392 00:27:44,836 --> 00:27:48,276 Speaker 1: wood to steal themselves against the temptation to take any 393 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:51,876 Speaker 1: of the women's food. I recognize that a human being 394 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 1: can go through a period of mental illness. I think 395 00:27:57,076 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 1: I was mentally ill. Was I mentally ill at the 396 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:05,996 Speaker 1: time that I removed the fingers? I don't know. I 397 00:28:06,116 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 1: like to think that I wasn't. I like to think 398 00:28:08,516 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 1: it was an act to that. I'm not gonna sit 399 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 1: here and canagarically say that I didn't do it on purpose. 400 00:28:17,876 --> 00:28:20,796 Speaker 1: Leg was rushed to the hospital. Pencil Keys heard the 401 00:28:20,836 --> 00:28:24,276 Speaker 1: news and came straight to his bedside. Leg looked like 402 00:28:24,316 --> 00:28:28,556 Speaker 1: a concentration camp survivor. His eyes had changed color, a 403 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 1: strange side effect of deprivation that was common among the men. 404 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:35,836 Speaker 1: His corneas were a hard, brilliant white, the color of 405 00:28:35,876 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: gleaming teeth. His skin was like flaky tree bark. His 406 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:44,276 Speaker 1: hand was a bloody mess. I'm quoting now from Tucker's account. 407 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 1: Is there anything I can do for you, Sam asked 408 00:28:48,116 --> 00:28:53,076 Speaker 1: Doctor Keys. Yes, said Sam. Keys leaned closer to here. 409 00:28:54,396 --> 00:28:58,356 Speaker 1: Keep being the experiment, he said, Sam, I'm afraid I 410 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:00,796 Speaker 1: can't keep you in, said Keys, You need rest and 411 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 1: decent meals. The two of them went back and forth, 412 00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:08,116 Speaker 1: and Leg said, Doctor, he said, his voice still hoarse 413 00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 1: and quiet, for the rest of my life, people are 414 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 1: going to ask me what I did during the war. 415 00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:18,036 Speaker 1: This experiment is my chance to give an honorable answer 416 00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:26,196 Speaker 1: to that question. Que And so for the next five days, 417 00:29:26,476 --> 00:29:29,596 Speaker 1: until Leg was released from the hospital, they brought him 418 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:32,636 Speaker 1: his meals from the laboratory kitchen in a cardboard take 419 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 1: up box, because of course he couldn't eat the hospital 420 00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:41,836 Speaker 1: food that would be cheating. Could answer, Keys, do that 421 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:46,756 Speaker 1: experiment today? I asked the ethosist Art Caplain about Keys's experiment. 422 00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:49,916 Speaker 1: Caplin knew the story well. He taught for years at 423 00:29:49,916 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 1: the University of Minnesota, putting people on starvation diets, having 424 00:29:55,596 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 1: them run around a city Minneapolis, being confronted with food everywhere, 425 00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:12,476 Speaker 1: having them stressed out. Not a chance. The Minnesota starvation experiment, 426 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:16,676 Speaker 1: or any experiment like it, could never be repeated today. 427 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:21,116 Speaker 1: In the next episode of Revisionist History, we ask, are 428 00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 1: we sure that's a good thing? Revisionist History is produced 429 00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 1: by Eloise Linton, Leeming, Gustu and Jacob Smith with Tali 430 00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:46,876 Speaker 1: Emlyn and Harrison VJ. Choi. Our editor is Julia Barton. 431 00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:51,716 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Milo Bell. Original scoring by Luis Gara, 432 00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:55,956 Speaker 1: mastering by Flawn Williams, and engineering by Nina Lawrence. Beth 433 00:30:56,036 --> 00:30:59,716 Speaker 1: Johnson is our fact checker. Special thanks to Todd Tucker 434 00:30:59,916 --> 00:31:03,596 Speaker 1: go read his book The Great Starvation Experiment, Ansel Keys 435 00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:07,196 Speaker 1: and The Men Who Starve for Science Special. Thanks also 436 00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:12,716 Speaker 1: du Ariella Markowitz for production help on this episode. I'm 437 00:31:12,716 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 1: Malcolm Glauber.